Season 2 In Review with Fabien Frankel
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Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion. And I am Greta Johnson. And today, in the wake of that finale, we are back to unpack the entire second season in full. The dragons, the deaths, and of course, the existential crises. We are like dust under the feet of the dragons. Yeah.

Immortal words of Kristen Cole. And today we kick off a set of post-season episodes where we'll have some very special guests, starting with today's guest, Kristen Christopher Cole himself, Fabian Frankel. Our boy's had quite a journey this season.

But first, we are going to go deep on season two and take a closer look at how far Rhaenyra and Alicent have come. So be warned, there are spoilers ahead for every episode of House of the Dragons. So make sure you've watched everything out there and then come back to us. History will paint you a villain, cold queen, grasping for power and then defeated. Let them think what they must. I am at last myself.

Okay, before we dive deep into where our main characters have traveled, both in their hearts and their minds, let's take a top kind of level view of the season. Greta, do you have any favorite new characters? Oh my gosh. I mean, I think, I would say it's a tie between Lohar and Alice Rivers, but we've seen so much more of Alice Rivers, so I'm going to go Alice. I'm no woman at all. I'm a barn owl.

Cursed to live in human form. For me, it's no contest. You gotta love Alice. She's so mysterious. She's such a weirdo. Such a weirdo. She has this knack for speaking her mind to very powerful people in a way that you don't see. I mean, she goes toe-to-toe with Damon rhetorically several times. Yes. And in fact, he completely melts his mind under the weight of

constant infernal waking nightmares. I think the other great thing about Alice and Lohar, really, and a couple other characters, too, is I feel like in season two, we're getting a little more of that, I think whimsy is a strong word, but like some of that humor that I do think some people were missing, like original Thrones fans. And so it has been really fun to see some of these quirkier characters come up. I mean, I think Harrenhal in general, which also was like,

literally haunted and very creepy is just like very fun and charming, I think. I want to shout out Oscar Tully also for just being a young kid with a shockingly strong backbone and for his ability to balance the internal politics of the Riverlands with the larger politics of the realm and to bring Damon to heel. I mean, he said, Damon, if you want what we got,

You got to do what I ask. And Damon did it. Mm-hmm. I see no reason to cast aside loyalty, no matter how loathsome I may find her representative, the prince. King, mind your tongue, boy. Will you have our army? His performance was outstanding. And yeah, that balance of like, I am going to be loyal, but I find you very distasteful. Yes, I don't like you. Perfect.

Do you have a MVP of this season? I'm going to say Rhaenys. I think she really did a lot for the team, you know? Yeah, a lot of strong choices here. Yeah. But I'm going to go with Vhagar. Oh, shit. That's a good one. I just feel like I've got to respect the dragon who's doing most of the work out here. And also...

It seems like everything that Team Black is doing is to try and check Vhagar. It's always like Vhagar, Vhagar, Vhagar. Yeah, yeah. So shouts to Vhagar. Yeah, that's a good one. Okay, so in a little bit, we are going to look closer at how Rhaenyra and Alicent have evolved this season. But first, let's take a look at how some other key characters started and where they ended up this season. Jason, are you ready? Let's do it. I mean, one that comes up

Top of mind is Damon. He's had a hell of a journey. He really has. I mean, when we meet him in season one, he is this brash, swaggering warrior. And where we leave him at the end of season two is a person who really for the first time in his life is

has embraced the idea that there's a larger cause than his own ambitions and emotions. That's a pretty amazing shift from him. It's wild to think about, especially, yeah, if you're looking from the beginning of season one, how much so many of these characters have changed. I think what I really love about a show like this that is so well-written is that

it all tracks. You know what I mean? Like, it can be so frustrating to watch a TV show and a character does something that feels completely out of character. And it's like, this could have worked if you had given me enough steps to get there. I think Damon is the perfect example of that, right? Like, if it had happened too quickly, you would have been like,

What the hell was that? But the way it was written, you're along for the ride the entire time. What about Aemond? Aemond is another really interesting one to think about, especially given, you know, starting from season one, he was like the run to the litter, you know? I mean, he had no power at all. To shift from that to, like, being on the warpath with the largest dragon in the world is...

A hell of a rise. It's interesting because I think of him as a contrast or mirror image to Damon in a lot of ways. Yes, totally. Because, you know, both in the shadow of a much more powerful brother, a much more heralded brother for much of their lives. And I think much like Damon is,

Eamon, you know, tried to live his life in contrast to his brother, the way he was so bookish, the way he really worked at his craft in the sword yard, claiming Vhagar. He went through the world and moved through King's Landing in a way that he wanted to invite people to look at him and say, that guy actually would be a great leader. And now to see him firmly gripping the reins of power, it's...

changed him in a way that I think he didn't think would happen. And certainly it was maybe the people around him would not have expected what happened. He's become a different person. Yeah, it's not a good look. Staying within the family. His sister Helena. Yes, it has been really interesting to see her

Coming into her power, top three storylines where I'm just like, I can't wait to see what happens with her next. Same. As a book reader, very, very much same. She is so mysterious. And this prophetic ability that she has is seemingly out of the bag now. There's no way that Amon certainly could ignore Amon.

the things that she says she's seen, right? So it will be fascinating to see how everybody reacts to that going forward. Yeah, yeah. Very excited for that one.

Okay, so the third sibling, at least that we've spent a fair amount of time with so far, is, of course, Aegon. Yeah, I mean, what a change. He went from being just a teenage bully to being absolutely burned to a crisp and looking terrible. It was interesting to watch him be king for that brief period. Yeah. Because I think that he...

He did better than I expected, I think. Same. Yeah. He's really had a roller coaster ride this season. It's difficult not to wonder, like, gosh, would Aegon have been a better king than Haman? Like, is Aegon like a pretty league average Targaryen king? Yeah, I think we can give that to him. Yes. Yes.

Well, and then, you know, this like glimpse we see in the last episode where he's getting out of town, I think is also very interesting because, you know, also along with Helena's prophecy, we know he's going to sit on a wooden throne, but what exactly that means is very intriguing. Yes, this partnership alliance of necessity with Laris is...

I can't wait to see where that goes. That brings us to Laris. Yeah, let's talk about Laris. When we first met him, it was on the name day hunting trip for Aegon. And we saw him just kind of worming his way into various conversations and kind of walking

walking up and standing on the edges of crowds and just listening to what people were saying. Now here he is at the innermost circles of power. And he is, I think, truly the only person that King Aegon can safely rely on right now. Definitely at this point. So speaking of people who are out of town, Otto, what the heck? Where is he? Yeah.

Where in the realm is Anohar Tower? You know, he starts his journey. When we first meet him, he is the stable, trusted, longtime hand to King Viserys. In many ways, the guy running the realm on a day-to-day basis at the same time.

He's extremely Machiavellian. Also handing over his daughter, his teenage daughter, to the Saras.

And no one seems to miss him, which I think is very interesting. Well, we know Alicent misses him because she was trying to write letters and she did ask about him at one point in the season. And we assume at least that Aemond would start to miss him soon given the fact that he did ask for him to come back as Hand or at least ask Glarus to bring him back. But that's all we've got.

We should talk about our fallen queen that never was, Rhaenys. Our favorite character from season one. Yeah. I think our favorite character for a lot of season two. Totally. You know, for half of season two. As long as we had her. She was, of course, passed over from the Iron Throne in the cold open to the entire series. And then was a important stateswoman, partner to the Sea Snake. And she went out like a warrior, like a Targaryen princess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Should have been Hand of the Queen, I think. Should have been. They're really going to miss her. They're going to miss her. Yeah. It's a huge loss. Let's go to Corlys, the sea snake. He's a really interesting one to think about because I feel like especially early on in season one, he really wanted to get into the fray. He was very frustrated with how a lot of stuff was going. He was very prideful.

And he seemed like he was ready to fight. And, I mean, he has suffered so much loss over the course of these two seasons. Yeah. Sadly, it's amazing to see how much he's had to endure season one, as you mentioned. And then, of course, now in season two.

has lost Rainese, has spent most of the season recovering from injuries and carrying out repairs on his flagship, and now he's Hand of the Queen. Yes, with two potential new heirs. We can't call them surprises necessarily, though they were surprises to us. Right, I guess that's really another important one is he's trying now to become...

Sort of a father figure to these two sons of his that he has not acknowledged up until this time. Yeah. And you would have to imagine that the loss of so many members of his family plays a role in this. But he also does seem sincerely interested in these young men. He does. It's a flawed approach, but you know. I agree. There is potential. It's not a perfect approach. We'll see how it goes.

Jace, also on Team Black. Also, a hell of an arc. Yeah. I mean, went from being a bully and being bullied. Yes. Bullying Ament for not having a dragon. Got to get those licks in while you can. That was a short-lived window of opportunity there. Yeah.

And then being bullied by Christian Cole and indeed the entire realm. And indeed the entire realm. And Ulf also, turns out. Indeed the entire realm. Also Ulf. For, you know, just not looking like his dad. Yep. It's treason to speak what we think about that, but that's a thing. And then Jace has now, you know, I think he spent a lot of time in season two thinking

of chafing at the restrictions placed on him as his mother, you know, was going through the same thing, but also proving his worth by taking initiative, going out, striking a deal with the phrase. We're seeing, in fact, that... True, he did that really well. Yeah. Hold on a second. Is Jace...

actually a talented diplomat he brought the north into the realm then that was going to be easy because you know by contrast easy because the starks are always going to honor their oaths but bringing the phrase in that was that was good work

What about Missaria, who went from basically Daemon's lover to Queen Rhaenyra's, I think at this point, most trusted ally, most trusted advisor, even more trusted than Corlys, which is saying something. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Missaria's had a hell of a rise. And it seems like...

I mean, yes, obviously she is looking out for herself, but she's also looking out for the realm, which is one of the only people you can really say that for confidently. Yes, that's true. And then there's our good friend, Kristen Christopher Cole. Oh, sweet Kristen. We'll talk about him a little later in the episode with Fabian Frankel himself. But first, let's take a closer look at Rhaenyra and Alicent, where they began and where they ended up.

First, let's get into Rhaenyra's arc specifically. She's pretty hesitant. She's angry, but she's unsure, I would say, at the beginning of season two. Does that track to you? Absolutely. I think this is the most of this season is Rhaenyra trying to

catch up to the speed of leadership. She's, has spent her whole life like waiting for this moment, but the reality of it is so much different than I think she was expecting. And,

And it's a real transition period for most of the season. And much like with Amand, I think power is starting to change her. You're starting to watch that happen. What did you think of her journey through this season? Yes. I mean, all of those things. I think it's also important to note that she also...

for some frustrating reason, was like surrounded by kind of shitty dudes on her council. And then also, Damon peacing out was like a huge, like no one super close to her showed faith in her. Which I could see that that would put you on just like very awkward footing in terms of trying to figure out how to assert yourself. And I feel like, I mean, you see that so clearly in that scene where Rhaenyra fights with Damon. I cannot trust you, Damon.

I've never trusted you wholly, much that I wished to, willed myself to. But now I have seen that your heart belongs only to you. And when I was a child, I took this as a challenge. But I'm older now. I have challenges enough. I have served you faithfully. Have you? Or have you used me as a tool with which to grasp at your stolen inheritance? Wow. It's so resonant, you know, with life because...

How many arguments do you have in the course of your life where you're arguing ostensibly about the dishes or something? And then someone's like, you killed a kid. Right. Sorry. You ordered the murder. You engineered the murder of a child. What the hell, dude? And then you're like, oh. But really, the argument is about all this other stuff. Sorry. No, your point stands. I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself.

Right. It's just like so relatable. All the times I've been like, God, did you order the murder of the prince? Did you really kill that child? But really it's about our relationship with our family. It's really about dad stuff. Usually. Yes. Deeply relatable. I completely agree. Yeah.

Okay, so here's the question on a slightly more serious side. I mean, one of the big threads through this entire show so far is that question of whether the realm will accept a queen as their leader. There's that scene in the first season where Rhaenys is like, yeah, no.

Obviously, there are a lot of people who still doubt that. I mean, Rhaenyra herself has asked the question, where do you think she is by the end of season two? I mean, it seems like she is ready anyway. Yeah. I think that she has come to terms with the reality of that situation.

questioning. The fact that it's unfair, it's unjust, it's a ridiculous bias. At the same time, it does exist and she needs to answer it through word and deed, whatever that means to her. And I think she's come to a place where she feels like she's confident. She is truly, truly confident in an almost messianic way. What did you think of the way she is

those anxieties and dealt with those anxieties and fears over the course of the season. I think you're totally right. I think it was really interesting to see the arc of her dealing with those anxieties. And I think we really see it very sharply in episode three when Rhaenyra sneaks into the Sept and talks with Alicent. So you've come to surrender then? I have come to see if we may uncover some path towards peace. My dragons are restless. They smell battle.

But if you and I may come to terms... There are no terms now. You have no army. Your allies turn from you when they hear of your depravity. Your hands are bloodied to no crime. I could never have imagined you... The trespass was not mine. I think we will. I am a mother too, and you have yet to answer for the murder of my son. I repudiate that happened with all my heart. Of course you do. I'm usurping my rightful inheritance.

It's just phenomenal. I just can't. Yeah, it's really interesting. What are your takeaways listening back to it now? This is not in the book, so what a surprise this scene was. What a really brave thing it was from Rhaenyra to try and end this without any more bloodshed. Now I could, I could.

could and will criticize the fact that she didn't offer any kind of terms. She basically said, hey, I know that I look like I'm losing right now, but what if you guys just surrender? I don't think that's the basis for a deal. But just the fact that she, you know, risked her life to go there and see if she could connect with her friend...

And the fact that Alicent did not cry out could have ended the war, really could have done it here. It probably would have all fallen apart. There would have been Daemon still, but this probably would have been the end of it. I also think as much as both characters have really changed over the course of, I mean, the entire series, but especially season two, it's interesting to be reminded again that

That phrase Rainier uses around wishing to avert the worst is exactly what Alicent is trying to do when she shows up at the end of the season, too. I mean, I think they both continue to...

realize the stakes and be pretty terrified by them, you know? They seem to be the only people who are... Right, yes. ...actually concerned about, you know, what the fallout of this is going to be. Everybody else can't wait to burn a city or chop off some heads. You know, yeah, they can't wait. Yeah. I wanted to go back to what you said about your excitement around the fact that this scene wasn't in the book.

Because I think that's such an interesting demonstration about what kind of story this adaptation is trying to tell. I mean, I know we've talked about...

with showrunners and writers about the fact that, you know, this particular text does provide for a pretty broad interpretation. But I mean, it is really interesting, especially when you think about like the internal lives of these two women, don't you think? I really do. And I think that one of the things I've been really kind of quietly amazed at is how this show has reframed the book in my mind and how they, the relationship between the two is,

is this kind of symbiotic, enrichening thing. The fact that this isn't in the books, to me now, says that, one, these two women managed to keep this secret. Like, this stayed between them. It really did. And two, and again, this is my own headcanon, it really just highlights the fact that the fictional history that was written takes a form of fire and blood in other novellas is really a...

essentially misogynistic piece of war propaganda that either sidelines the efforts of the women in the story or reframes them as chaotic, overly emotional, and just crazy kind of stuff. And man, the way the show brings that to the forefront when you go back and you read the text is just really fascinating.

Interesting. It's really, really interesting. One thing that we've seen a lot of, which we've talked about in season two, is sort of that conflict between being queen and mother. We see it especially with Rhaenyra in the early episodes when she is mourning the death of her son, but still expected to show up at council. And also, you know, the fact that she ends up, like,

Especially after having talked to Alyson, embracing the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy and her decision to tell Jace. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Viserys told me when he named me his heir. What Jaehaerys had told him. And what I will now tell you. What is it? Aegon the Conqueror's dream. He called it the Song of Ice and Fire. Let me... Now...

I think that the wording is very interesting. I must believe. Almost acknowledging that on some level, this is a rationalization for the

terrible things that she is going to cause to happen by pursuing this war. But at the same time, starting to really say, it's just seeming as if she's really starting to believe it. That's really interesting because the way you're framing that too, then there's like an inevitability to it, right? And she even says that, right? It's in God's hands now. It's out of her hands. She's just doing what's ordained, which is

Very interesting. Yeah, I think it must be a wonderful relief, right, to have a thing that can take the burden of these decisions off of her shoulders. The guilt of the death that will come. It's funny because as a viewer at this point, I'm rooting for her and I'm so excited that she's like...

taking the leap that she has known she has needed to and that is arguably necessary to end this war. But then to connect the dots from that to the insane dragon lottery is just like, wait, what? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, anytime someone...

With that amount of power starts saying, well, it's in God's hands and I think the gods have blessed me. That, you know, it's always like, are we good? But at the same time, I get it. Once these long shot plans start working, this is against everything they know about dragons, that non-Targaryens can ride dragons.

And it's even, and it's against everything they know about their political system, about their social structure, that non-royals could ride dragons. To see these kind of things bear fruit, it must be intoxicating for Rhaenyra. It's difficult to not see it leading to some very, very damaging decisions. Let's move on to Alicent. In some ways, she went through, I think, some of the biggest challenges this season, and

And really had an eye-opening kind of awakening over the course of this season in which she grapples with the idea that she may have picked the wrong side. Yes, I think we see that sort of like slowly dawn on her over the course of this season. I think this is definitely one of the most interesting arcs. You know, we start to see it even in episode one as she's realizing like, oh, I don't have as much control over Aegon as I thought I did.

And then, of course, that incredible scene at the King's Council when they're trying to decide what to do about Aegon being off the board, essentially. And she thinks, this is my time. I've done it before. I was very good at this. And they just completely over, they're like, you can't be queen. That defeats the entire purpose of this war. And you just see it just completely overwhelm her. She's like, oh, shit.

I am no stranger to rule or to sitting at this council. Aemond is a fearsome dragon rider. His skill is best employed in the field, but my experience is needed here, at this table. No offense was meant, Your Grace, but at a time when we must show strength. Lord Larys. I agree, Your Grace. It must be Prince Aemond. What would it say if in response to Rhaenyra's crowning we raised up a woman of our own? That the hand speaks with the king's voice, Ser Criston. What say you? Aemond is the next in line. It must be him.

God damn it. Yeah. And then from there, of course, we get this incredible sound design where you can still hear the deliberations and the small council, but from seemingly far away. And the camera just stays with Alicent as she tries to endure that. I think it's especially interesting to think back on that scene because the reason she wants the role is

I mean, I could see maybe that there is some desire for power, but that really isn't how I read it. I read it as she's like, oh, thank God I can finally try to fix this horrible situation we're in. You know, it's not even about the glory of it. It's like, how do we get out of this? That's how I read it as well. Of course, there must be some sort of ambition there at a low ebb, some kind of like faint glimmer of ambition within. But I think you're exactly right. Her thought is,

finally, an adult in the room, I will take control of this thing and I will try to land it in the most responsible and least bloody way possible. You know, it's funny, through the course of this conversation today, I feel like I've...

had this my brain has sort of been like wait are you actually on team green should you have sided with allison this entire time and then i remember what a bad mom she is yeah i'm like yeah i don't know this is really complicated and you know nobody has answers to nature versus nurture she did make some pretty monstrous children and

It'll be interesting to meet Darren. Maybe that'll give us another data point. You know, we've talked about how young she was when she had them. She was in a horrible position. But we have not seen her being particularly nurturing to pretty much any of those kids. No, not at all. And in fact, it is a theme of this season. That nurturing hand is something that both her sons certainly...

are looking for out in the world in different ways. Very true. Yes. Another thing that must be so heartbreaking, disappointing at this moment where she's passed over is it really felt, I felt as if this was her finally attempting to step out of that role of living her life for all these other people, her kids. Now she could be herself, her own person, not just the mother of the royal family, but

And to see that there's no place for her in that kind of role. That's not required of her. What's required of you is, honestly, you did it. You've accomplished it. You had the kids. We don't need you anymore. That's tough. Yes, you're totally right. I think that's a huge piece of it. And you see her...

become increasingly frustrated with at least Egon and Eamon. I feel like she's trying with Helena. It kind of feels like too little too late. It'll be interesting to see how that relationship develops. But, you know, I remember that scene with Egon where she's like, you idiot. You're not supposed to know everything. That's what you have a counsel for. You know, like you start to see her like really call bullshit on these kids.

But they're in these positions of power where it's sort of like, I don't know if you should do that anymore, you know? Yeah, really, really fascinating, too, the way she would invoke Viserys in those various conversations with Aegon and Aemon later. Like, you know, your father was this dignified king. Can't you try to live up to his standard? It's very interesting, this kind of...

golden glow that has suffused around Viserys's memory now that everything is going sideways. You know, Alicent really wants this to end. And that should be every reasonable person watching what's going on in the realm should feel that. This should be over. How can we make this

Well, I guess one question that makes me have, though, is like, at this point, could you even say that Alicent is team green? Like, it seems like she's defecting pretty hard by the end of the season. Yeah, by the end, it's over. The end of the season when she protects Helena against Aemond, I think, is very telling. I mean, how does she phrase it where she's like, you can't have the only good one, essentially. Yeah. You know?

Yeah, right. This is the only gentle and good member of our family left and you want to turn her into a killer. I won't let that happen. Yeah. I need you to fly with Dreamfire to battle. Aimed. I do not wish to fight. Our wishes must take second place now to what is necessary to preserve the throne. I won't burn anyone.

It isn't a question. They have defiled our birthright, made commoners into dragonlords. It is a sin and must be banished. Major! I remind you, your sister is still the queen. As you were once. And you see now what is the consequence of your weakness. We are in peril today more than yesterday. Is it peril that moved you to burn the town of Shark Point? Peril or basest fury at your own humiliation? You wish to rule the Seven Kingdoms, but you reign ruin and death upon its small folk when you've been insulted. Because it makes you feel strong.

And now you seek to corrupt your sister, of all our line the gentlest and most deserving of your protection. Who will protect her if she cannot protect herself? And who will she be if her mind is broken? It is no longer our rule that is threatened. Our very lives would you not have us prevail? Not like this. Not like this!

Wow. Do not have us prevail, Nellie. I mean, that's it, right? She's like, yeah, no, I'm out. Yeah, there's actually a cost to winning in this way. And I think she's also responding to Eamon's clear panic. Like, this is a panic move. Yes. You know, he is, Eamon, I think, is feeling that they're losing and that...

will remember that he was in charge when they lost. Yeah. So as season two closes, of course, Alicent and Rhaenyra have their reunion on Dragonstone. We talked a lot about this in the finale episode. But now that we have kind of gone through their arcs,

What versions of them do you think we see showing up in this meeting? You know, it's interesting. I think it's a version of each character that we've never really seen before. Rhaenyra has never been this sure. I mean, the way she basically says, like, I have to kill your son and I have to do it in public. I have to behead him in front of the entire realm. That's a fact of their political system. But the way she does it is so...

cruel and cold. And then there's Alison, who, as we've said, has spent her whole life serving her family's interests and has now turned her back on them in a significant way that will paint her as a villain for a lot of the realm. We've never seen that kind of willingness to stand up to her family ever. She's never done this. So this is...

This is a significant, you know, fork in the road for both of these women. What were your thoughts? I do wonder if Rhaenyra, being very clear with Alyson, I do wonder if there is some degree of kindness to that where she's like, to be clear, you can't be surprised by the outcome of this. Yeah.

You know, it's because, yeah, I don't know. I almost wonder if that is an attempt to be like, we are friends and you are offering me something, but I just want to like really clearly lay out what you are offering so that there's no confusion on the other end, you know? I think that's actually a great point. There is a kind of, you could certainly think about it as a kind of kindness. Like, let's be absolutely transparent about what will happen if you do this, okay? Yes.

Yes. Yeah, that's a good point. And it'll be interesting to see if the plan goes forward the way Allison frames it, if there's enough trust there for Raniro to believe that it's not a trap and it works. I do wonder what is their personal relationship like and what is their public relationship like? It will be fascinating to see how that transpires. What do you think will happen should this work?

I mean, I could see a world where Alicent is like, disappears. Like, we don't know how she got away. And she could just sort of like, you know, Homer Simpson into the hedge or whatever. Um...

I would love for them to just be able to run away together, honestly. But it does feel like that's probably not going to happen. Well, I would imagine that taking King's Landing will be an incredible coup for Rhaenyra if she indeed does move to attack with her new dragon riders. And yet, I would imagine the king not being there would be a pretty big wrinkle in her plans. Yeah, it does seem like if both Larys and Aegon...

Like, that's enough of a quorum of power that, like, it's not going to... It wouldn't be as simple as Alicent is making it out to be, for sure. Not that she knows that, but yeah, that's a tricky one. I guess you might argue that all you got is a nice chair. Is it even that nice of a chair? Is it even that nice? She's kind of uncomfortable.

Marnira and Alicent aren't the only ones who went through titanic changes this season. One character with a huge arc is Ser Criston Cole, commoner, half Dornishman, who rose up through the ranks to have a bunch of brunches with the Dowager Queen and shockingly to become Hand of the King. Up next, the incredible Fabian Frankel who plays Criston Cole.

We are absolutely delighted to be joined today by the actor behind one of our very favorite characters to discuss, Fabian Frankel, who plays Sir Kristen Cole. Thank you for being here, Fabian. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Jason, I love how you said one of our favorite characters to discuss. Yes. Yeah, one of our favorite characters.

Which also could have been read as our favorite character who we discussed. But, you know, there's a lot of different variations on that. But it's okay. I feel the same way. I will say full disclosure, I came clean to Greta that, you know, when people say they love to hate a character, I actually do love it.

Like, I'm enjoying it. You are reveling in it. I can tell. When Christian Cole, you know, there have been other characters in the world in Game of Thrones and in House of the Dragon when they show up, you're like, oh no, what's going to happen? When Christian Cole shows up, I'm like, let's go. What are we going to see now? Totally. Yes, a thousand percent. Well, and I think like partly because

It's because, Fabian, over the course of this episode, we talked a lot about where characters started in season one and where they've ended up now by the end of season two. And you in particular have had a hell of an arc. I mean, the existential crisis that Sir Christian Cole is going through by the end of this is pretty remarkable. Yeah, it is. It's funny. It's sometimes hard to see it. I suppose until the show comes out, you're sort of unaware of the arc itself.

in the same way that you're aware of it when people tell you about it, if that makes sense. Totally. In some ways, when you do press...

you sort of rediscover the character because you have to rethink all these answers about things. And then some of those answers then kind of end up carrying you through into the second season of the show. Some of the answers I was giving in press in season one ended up being my kind of whys for the season two, which is weird because you just never really, no one ever gives you that much time before you start filming a show. No one's getting you on a podcast to talk about what you're about to do with the season.

But then afterwards they are, and then you're like, maybe that's where that happened. I don't know, you know? So we talked about how Jason loves to hate Chris Stinkle. What do you think of him these days? Like, how are you framing him? This is your opportunity now to reflect on season two. Oh, God. It's so weird, isn't it? Because I suppose when you're playing that kind of a quote-unquote villain character,

you're sort of trying to find the justification for things as best you can. And that's not to say that you aren't aware of the ridiculousness or madness of someone's actions, but certainly you've got to find an inroad into justifying them. And so, so much of my opinions on him are now being informed by kind of the world, which is like people, you know, like I went into Jimmy Fallon and like James from the roots was like,

He was like, man, I wish you were dead. And I was like, but I mean, certainly like, you know, hearing stuff like that, you're like, ah, but obviously I don't know that I would love Kristen Cole were I a fan of the show. You know what I mean? Like where I, where I'm not in it. I think I might think he was a pretty vile human being, but naturally being in it, I kind of am like, eh, you know, he's, he's had a tough time. It's a crazy world out there. And,

And everyone's forgiving everyone for everything, dude. Eamon's murdering his brother. He's killing his cousin. I mean, like, you know, Smithy's murdering his wife. You know, I feel like everyone's doing crazy stuff. Let's talk about that remarkable speech that Cole gives to Gawain Hightower when Gawain finally confronts Cole about sleeping with his sister, the queen, Queen Alicent.

And Kristen Cole just unloads an existential monologue. Talk to us about preparing for that. And where do you think Kristen Cole's head is at when the season ends? I really actually think it was something that my favorite line I've ever gotten to say in the show is that, you know, the dragons dance and men are like dust under their feet. All our fine thoughts and all our endeavors are as nothing.

And I just remember reading that. It felt much more metaphorical than I had intended for it to feel when I read it the first time. And when I started learning it, it just felt like a very powerful message. But I just think that that speech itself is really beautifully written. It is really beautiful. I mean, it's also just like, I don't think anyone else has said quite so candidly, essentially like, we're all fucked here, dude. You know?

Yeah, pretty much. And I think a lot of people have been thinking it, you know? And weirdly, it's the guy who started the war in the first place that's the one who's now realized that it's real. So that's an interesting full circle. I also think that, like...

It's quite rare in a scene in House of Dragons for Crist and Cole specifically to get that kind of dialogue. You know, he's quite a man of quite few words, quite a lot of action and a lot of confrontation. And hilariously, there's confrontation put in front of him by Gwaine and he avoids the confrontation and

and negates it to some extent and then ends up having quite a frank conversation, which I think is pretty unexpected, especially, you know, given we haven't seen him for like the best part of three episodes. We must talk about a huge development this season, Kristen Cole's relationship with Queen Alicent. Yes. I didn't know where you were going there. Kristen Cole's relationship, and that could have gone anywhere, dude. With his horse, it could have been anything, dude.

It could have been like relationship to the wall. I don't know what you're going to go ahead. Yeah. Let's go with that one. But what, what drew them together? You know, Olivia always speaks about it really beautifully. There's a real inherent feeling of being trapped that both of them have. My big thing with Kristen Cole is that I feel like he's been stuck in this castle for the best part of 25 years. And,

And in that time, he's seen three different rulers and he's seen three different hands and he's never able to leave. And I think that's something we never really talk about or see. You know, all he needs and everyone always gives shit, you know, Chris

Kristen Cole asked Rhaenyra to run away with the, whatever it was, the strawberries in the woods. You know, he said something about going away and having some fruit somewhere. And I think that like what he was saying is I need to get the fuck out of here. You know, like I need to get out of here. And he, at that point, he'd only been there for a small period of time. And for me, it certainly the relationship with Alison comes out of this need of like, and she's been trapped there for so long by her father that,

who's kind of put her at the forefront of this whole nightmarish family that she's now in charge of. And I don't know, I always thought that was a really, you know, two people very bound together by this oppressed castle that they're in.

Oranges and cinnamon. That's what it was. It was oranges and cinnamon. Sorry, I just remembered. No, I just remembered. It sounds delicious, doesn't it? I'd love some oranges and cinnamon right now. Yes, gorgeous. It's such a nice, it feels like it would smell so nice. It feels Italian. Yes, great weather for sure. Anyway, I'm sorry.

Well, I just, like, especially with those two, I think more than anyone else in season two, like, you're just seeing them reconcile so much with, like, what they were told they were supposed to do and then what the outcome has yielded. And they're both so deeply dissatisfied with the sacrifices that they've made that they seem like a great pairing just both.

because they're both so deeply frustrated, I think. Yeah, 100%. And also, I mean, like on a purely sort of physical level, like when's the last time these two people sort of had like, you know, active physical relationships with other people and certainly not, you know, Cole the once with Rhaenyra and Alicent a couple of times with Viserys. But, you know, I don't know how, you know,

I mean, I don't know how sort of like much fun that was for her. And so I think there's also that, you know, which is sort of not something people like talk about so much. And it was something that Olivia and I spoke about a lot was that, you know, what that means, what that looks like, what that much sort of pent up frustration feels like from two people, like you say, that are oppressed by their jobs and oppressed by their positions within society and oppressed by the fact that they're living in this castle and everything.

All the rules and all the duty and, you know, all the rest of it.

Cole gets a big position handed to him, hand of the king. Promotion. A wonderful promotion that he is quite surprised by. What's he feeling when this happens? It's funny. I don't think he ever wanted it. I don't think that's what he was angling for. He's not calculated enough. That's his problem, really. That's Cole's ultimate problem. It's just that he's not a calculating person. And when he is calculating, like he is in the scene with Sir Eric,

when he sends Sir Eric to murder Sir Eric, and that's the kind of only really calculated thing he does, it goes pretty terribly. And again, even though it's calculated, it's calculating from impulse. It's not like Otto who sort of sits brewing plans in his head for years or like Olaris. These are kind of orators and wonderfully witty and intelligent and manipulative and...

understand the nuance of politics in Cole just doesn't. And so then suddenly he's told he's to become hand of the king. And I think the Lord commander is as far as his sort of, his sort of ambitions ever would have stretched. You know, I don't think he wants that position at all, which is why as soon as he gets it, he's like, I'm leaving. I'm out of here. Okay.

Like, you know, he lasts two days as Hand of the King before being like, all right, sweet. I'm in a position to get out of this castle. I got to go. This is a perfect situation. And weirdly, although I think, you know, everyone will sort of talk about his motives for the war. I feel his biggest motive for the war is just the first chance he's ever had to get the fuck out of King's Landing, you know?

Well, and probably also to fight because it's something he actually is like, feels like he's good at doing, right? Completely. Well, and he is and he does so well. He does so well so fast. It's what the whole of episodes three and four are about is how fast it's working. Right.

And it's only really his plan only really goes awry because of Aegon. Right. Yeah. I want to talk about that plan because I do think the plan is a lot more sophisticated than the whole Eric, Eric thing, which obviously was a disaster. Totally. Well, it's also like, you know, certain people, they might, listen, everyone has their strengths. I think Cole is a soldier. Yeah.

And, you know, Cole, he's good at riding horses. He's good at battle. He's good at, he's probably decent in bed, I reckon. He's good at camping. Great at camping. And he's ageless. You know what I mean? This is a guy who's looked 25 since he's been 16. And now he's 50. And how old does he look? 25. Yeah.

And people don't talk about that. He doesn't get the credits. He doesn't get the credits he deserves for that. That's true. He's got to drop the skincare routine. Listen, me and Smithy. Yeah, you and Smithy. I think Damon and Cole, and Matt and I have been in talks, long talks with various facial care brands. We're going to release a Cole video.

You heard it here first. Summer 2025, there's going to be a special skincare. It's going to be us doing that. And then Emma and Liv are going to do the Negroni deal. And Matt and I have a skincare thing going on. So anyway, it's an exciting year. While the show's not on, you really can tune in. Matt and I got together. We did a lot of tests.

and we found one that smells good and we're excited to put it out there. It's beautiful. I can't wait. That's wonderful. Yeah. I was going to say Consort by Frankl and Smith. Dude, that's a good name. That's a good name. I'm writing it down. I'm writing it down.

Sorry. Yes. A little bit more about the fallout from Rook's Rest. Amon and Cole are quite tight before that expedition, hanging out together, talking about their plans, their plans for the war, how they'd like to see it go. And then quickly in the wake of that.

Aemond is seen by Cole with his sword out standing near the king. I'm sure Cole has suspicions about what that meant. And then immediately thereafter, Aemond is elevated to Prince Regent. And there seems to be a very clear break in their relationship. What is Cole feeling about Aemond in the wake of Rook's Rest? You know, it's like when you have your sort of worst fears about somebody and then those fears are really realized. Yeah.

And I think Cole's biggest fear in all this, there was the aim and really genuinely wanted egg on dead. And now that fear has been realized. And it's like, you know, it's one thing trying to forgive because it does feel like Amon and Cole have probably spoken about Lucerys is death.

And Amon sort of admitted to some guilt or at least feeling of regret over that incident. Then Cole's kind of feeling like, all right, you know, it's not as bad as it might be. He won't do that kind of thing again. And then this time he's seen it firsthand, you know. And I think that now it's suddenly dawned on him that Amon's uncontrollable and that Amon, I think, has probably began to sniff out the relationship between Cole and Allison. Mm.

And I mean, it's really interesting to think about that battle scene really being from Kristen Cole's point of view on the ground as all of this is happening. What was it like to film it and what was it like then to watch it on the screen? I mean, it was amazing to film. It was really one of those, you know, I developed such a lovely relationship with Freddie Fox, who plays Gwaine Hightower. And it was kind of the two of us really and Alan, who were there for the bulk of it. Alan, the director. Yeah, Alan Taylor, our director. Yeah.

And so, and the three of us kind of, it really felt like we were in the heart of this whole thing. And it was genuinely kind of probably one of the, weirdly one of the highlights of my career. And cause I just felt so lucky to be able to be a part of something like that. It was like the kind of childhood dream thing. You're like in armor on a horse and like,

screaming at like, like all these amazing extras on fire. And I mean, it was, it was a truly like one of those things you go like, I cannot believe this is what I do for work. All the work that went in and that will never be seen by so many people, the stunt men, like literally lighting themselves on fire, like 10, 15 stunt guys grabbed in oil on fire, walking through set. You just, I mean, and these things were happening like, well, I'm supposed to do a kind of look like, you know, on a horse or whatever. And you're just, I'm just going like, wow, this is,

crazy that this is happening right now and this is going to look banging on camera and it did what's it like acting in

armor on a horse. Do you know what? It's pretty cool, man. I complain a lot about the armor, but there are some moments where it's pretty cool. I'll tell you, Jason, you would look good on there, man. You would look good on there. So would you, Greta. But it's pretty cool. Those are the moments, man. Those are the real Game of Thrones moments that you're like, they are pretty, that you are like, this is cool as hell. It's awesome. So yeah, do you feel like you've like...

come into the role more comfortably than you did in season one? I feel like when we talked to you, which granted was like over two years ago at this point, you were like, I don't know. I'm terrified. This is all very strange to me. Yeah. And now you're like, yeah, I was on Fallon last week. I mean, it's been like quite a ride just for you too. Yeah. I definitely felt less anxious. I mean, you always feel anxious.

because I always feel anxious and you want to do a good job. And certainly this year, like it felt like Kristen Cole had really been put at the forefront of the show in a way that he wasn't last year. You know, last year he was really constantly sort of serving someone else's story, whether it was Rhaenyra's story or Alicent's story or Viserys's story. And then this season, certainly from Episcopal,

two onwards, he very much is setting his own path. And David Hancock calls it a POV character. He's one of our writers. And I thought that was a really interesting way is that, you know, for some period of time, whether the audience like you or hate you or indifferent to you, they are living through the show in your eyes a little bit.

And that's a very interesting thing because it gives you some control over the narrative, really. But it just felt like a different responsibility. That said, I was still as nervous. I still feel...

I always say this, I never felt right for the part of Kristen Cole and I still don't really feel right for it. And there's always this feeling of imposter syndrome with this role that I always feel like I'm slightly not the right guy. I don't know how much of that is my own insecurity and how much of that is

is just this feeling that the world is so incredibly far away from our world and so it's hard maybe for anyone. But, you know, I sometimes see like Matthew Needham playing Lara Strong or Emma Darcy and I'm just like, wow, you guys are just...

belong in those roles you know you just like no one else could have played those parts yeah and I suppose in a weird way I struggle to feel that about myself I don't know I wonder if that's what makes you perfect for the role though actually because I do think like it comes you know like because Kristen Cole has some of that stuff too right yeah yeah totally

Yeah, he does. There's an outsider feeling, isn't it? And he is the outsider. He's the only non-member of Lander Gentry in the whole show other than Misaria, really. Everyone else is Lander Gentry and come from big, powerful families.

And he doesn't. And I pray that we get to see some version of what his life might have been like or understand him talking about what his life might have been like prior to this show. Because I think it's such an interesting thing to understand how a Dornish soldier ends up working for the royal family and all of the...

When you actually think about what that is, it's unheard of really. The way that characters in the universe speak about Dornish people with such disgust and disdain on such a regular basis, and yet here is this Dornish man right at the heart of this whole world. Finally, we are contractually obligated to ask, as we've been asking everyone. Oh God.

Green or black? Pick a side. Green all day to my absolute, to my bones. Has anyone from the green said black? And if they have, I'd like their name. Of course not. I would be so deeply disappointed if they had. But no, green every day, baby. I respect it. I respect it. How do you think green is doing by the end of season two, though? I think we're making some headway. I mean, we're a crazy bunch. I'll tell you that for free. You are a crazy bunch. I will give you

that. And I do think if you were having a sort of big old party at someone's gaff, you'd rather it be at the greens than at the blacks. I do. I really do, man. I really do. But maybe I'm biased. Well, Fabian, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for doing such a great job bringing Kristen Cole to life. Yes, thank you. Oh, I really appreciate that. Thank you, Greta. Thank you, Jason. Nice to see you guys.

Oh my goodness, Fabian Frankel, consistently one of the most delightful people to talk to, don't you think? Yeah, truly. Okay, before we go, let's do our final check-in on our season two bingo card. Number one, Dragon Death.

We got it. Correct. That was maybe the easiest one. We knew it was going to happen. Had to happen. Totally. Number two is foot stuff, which, you know, am I disappointed? That's a great question. It does feel very season one now that we have the entirety of season two. It does seem like a thing of the past, which is probably for the best. Let's be honest.

Number three, mistaken identity. Totally. We got it. Yep, we had it. Perfect. Number four, Helena prophecies. We got a bunch. She's getting better. It's very exciting to see. Can't wait to see what happens next with that. Absolutely. Next, surprising friendships. And this has been a fun one. Yes, that has been really fun to see. We definitely got it. Another one of mine that I'm kind of bummed that we didn't get was Eamon grinning maniacally. Do you think it will ever happen or is his character just too reserved? I think...

I think we may get it, but since the weight of the realm has been placed upon his shoulders, he's not had time to smile. Yeah. Amon's glaring intensely, we've gotten. Yes. A number of times. A lot of that. A lot of hectoring his underlings. Take a minute to smell the flowers, Amon. Yeah. Yeah.

Next, shocking romance. And boy, how did we get it? Wonderful, shocking, more than one. I mean, really, we've like tripped. We doubled up on this one, I think. Yes. Oh, totally. Yeah, no, we're good to go on that. And I imagine we're going to get any number more, which is also exciting. Our eighth one was really bad Westeros party, which...

did not happen, shockingly. Now, can I ask, what do we think of the gathering of the dragon seeds on Dragonstone at first? Oh, yes! The awkward dinner? That was, we should say, preceded by the burnings of

Very many people. Very, very many people. Yeah. Earlier in the day? Yes. And that's the meal where Ulf is like, I love these tiny birds. Yeah, I think that counts. I mean, when I was picturing a really bad Westeros party, I was thinking like, you know, at least one person is going to die and probably a lot more. But I think you're right. I think we could totally count that. And finally, Damon's murder cloak, which he donned with aplomb all throughout the season. Perfectly. He continued to do so. You know, what is this?

Seven out of nine? Six out of nine. Six out of nine? Never mind. But still, I think that... It's more than half. More than half. I will give us a bingo. I think we should take the win where we can get it. Especially if we're going to be kind of like widening the scope of Really Bad Westeros Party to... Oh, yeah, that's true. Then we got seven out of nine. Yeah, kind of fit an all-day gathering that ends with an awkward...

but is preceded by, again, the deaths by fire of dozens and dozens of people. Who were shipped over on a boat, who like willingly came. Yeah, I think you're totally right. I think you're totally right. And folks, you heard it here first. It's a historic moment in the history of Westeros. Our first bingo. That's a bingo. I really want you to like yell about it being a bingo. Bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo.

Okay, before we go, we have something very special to share. We want to hear from you. Greta and I want to hear your questions about this season. Is there something you're dying to know more about? We'll answer these questions here on this podcast. So please give us a call. Leave us a message at 212-830-3826. That's 212-830-3826. And who knows? You might hear your question on the podcast.

And that's all for today's episode. We'll be back next Wednesday where we unpack everything we know about our brand new dragon riders, Hugh, Ulf, and Adam, or Hua, as we like to call them. As you like to call them. Okay, sorry.

I know we were in this together. It's going to be a great episode. You don't want to miss it. Of course, in the meantime, you can also rewatch every episode of House of the Dragon now on Max. And if you like what you are hearing, please don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. And you can find me at GretaMJohnSen on both X and Instagram. You can find me at Instagram.

NETW3RK on X and Instagram, the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, who's

is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jay-Ann Barry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alfira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and myself. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstad, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Perhaps all men are corrupt, and true honor is a mist that melts in the morning. That is a bleak philosophy.