Ep. 8: The Queen Who Ever Was (with Showrunner Ryan Condal)
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It's all a story. And you're but one part in it. You know your part. Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson. And I'm Jason Concepcion. The season two finale is over. Wow. Everyone is marching to war.

Tensions are very, very high. They are indeed. And today we are going to dive into everything that happened in season two, episode eight, titled The Queen Whoever Was. It was written by Sarah Hess and directed by Gita Vasant Patel. And later in the podcast, we break it all down with our best FOP friend of the pod, House of the Dragons showrunner, Ryan Condal. But first, you know the drill. There are spoilers for the entire second season in this episode. So go watch that and then come back.

You are the true queen, Rhaenyra. First of her name, protector of the realm. I am meant to serve you. And all of these with me until death or the end of our story. Okay, Jason, let's get a quick recap before we jump in. We open in Essos, where Tylan Lannister is negotiating terms of alliance with those rascals, the Triarchy. Those colorful pirates of the Triarchy.

The Tri-Gree Lake, sure, but we want the stepstones and we want to be able to levy any tax that we want on the Narrow Sea if we are going to enter the fray. Thailand agrees, although he's worried that Amon will be furious. However, as a condition of this deal, Thailand will have to earn the respect of the pirate fleet commander Lohar through a series of tests. These include mud wrestling, singing, being the butt of various jokes,

And then also Thailand is offered the opportunity to impregnate all of Lohar's wives. So that happened. How many you got? How many you got? Meanwhile, in the Crownlands, a petulant Aemond recently turned away from Dragonstone by the sight of multiple dragons.

has burned Sharp Point, the seat of Lord Bar-Iman of the Black Council in the Red Keep. Aegon is getting stronger. Larys tells him, well, the reason for this physical therapy regime is we got to get you strong to flee the city. We got to do it now. Rhaenyra has new dragons. Your brother might kill you. Aegon's like, but wait, I'm injured in various horrific ways. Also, I can't go to the bathroom that good.

Larys says, no, we have to leave. Alicent is also thinking about leaving King's Landing with Helena, but Aemond comes over and says, Helena, we need you to get on the dragon. This is the last straw for Alicent. She's really thinking about making a serious break now. Somewhere in the Riverlands, Ser Gawain confronts Cole, who is nose deep in Alicent's tit-napting, but also soul deep in an existential funk. Yeah.

Sir Gwaine is like, I'll send you to the wall. I'll do all these things. Maybe I'll kill you. And Kristen's like, what is life? What is death? What does it all mean? The dragons are flying. We are but ashes beneath their claws. Please give me the kiss of sweet release and let me shuffle off this mortal coil. And Gwaine's like, oh my God. Okay. Back on Dragonstone, Jace has a run in with Hugh and Ulf. Ulf not recognizing the prince is incredibly disrespectful. And...

This is clearly going to be a problem going forward.

Rhaenyra and Corlys plan their next moves, and they decide now is the time to strike. It's time to shut down the Greens. Corlys' flagship is almost ready to go, and he has renamed it the Queen Who Never Was in honor of his late wife. That's very sweet, Corlys, but less sweet of Corlys is him pretending, you know, now he's going to be a dad to Alan, I guess. You know, after all these years, and Alan is having none of it and says, let's keep it professional, okay? I'm going to carry out my duties professionally.

But we're not going on picnics and having catches out in the ball fields, okay? At a welcome feast on Dragonstone, Rhaenyra toasts the new riders, Hugh, Ulf, and Adam. Hua, as I'm calling them. If they prove themselves to the queen...

She promises a knighthood. In two days, the dragons will go forward to subdue the green strongholds. Ulf is, again, just flagrantly out of line, but there's no time to address this now because a maester brings a message from Harrenhal. At Harrenhal, Daemon's army's looking good. There's no other way to say it. He has a visitor. It's Alfred Broom, who says...

Listen, Rhaenyra's kind of floundering. What if you take over? Ser Strong watches this and he is alarmed. Shortly after Broome's proposition, Daemon wakes up. Alice is sitting at the side of his bed. She takes him to the godswood to commune with the old gods. Daemon touches the heart tree and he sees everything. All eight seasons of Game of Thrones he sees. Ha ha ha!

Finally, he sees Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne and Helaena telling him he's but one part of the story. In King's Landing, Aemon interrupts her reverie to talk again about her going to war, and Helaena is not going to be swayed. She really doesn't want to do it, and she says, in fact...

Aegon will be king again and you will be dead. And you burned him and I saw it and you can't lie about it. He's like, well, what if I kill you? And she says, it won't change a single thing. After Daemon's big vision moment, Rhaenyra arrives in Harrenhal with Adam and Seasmoke as backup. She walks past Aegon.

this huge army of river men. They're pounding. They're sharpening their swords. They're cleaning their shields. They're ready to go. Daemon comes through, and it's a tense moment, but ultimately he bends the knee, proclaims her true queen. The army kneels, and then Daemon gives like a remember the titan speech, and the whole roof blows off the place. It goes crazy.

Rhaenyra returns home to Dragonstone where she's woken in the middle of the night by her queen's guard because there's a shocking visitor. It's Alyson. Rhaenyra's jaw literally dropped. They argue. They blame each other for different things. Eventually, Alyson says, okay, listen, this is why I'm here. I picked the wrong side. It's very difficult for me to say that you could see her struggling to say this and

And now, my old friend, I need you to end this terrible war in three days' time. Come to the capital with your dragons. I will throw open the gates. You can take the whole place without any bloodshed. Rhaenyra says, well, listen, that means I have to execute Aegon, like, in front of everybody. I have to do that. And Alicent's like, come on, really? Really? After I do all of this? And she's like, yeah, I have to. And Alicent says, okay, fine. All right.

And then we go to the big montage as Alicent walks away out of Dragonstone towards the dock to get on her ship. We go to the Vale where Reyna finally comes face to face with this wild dragon. House Hightower on the march through the Reach with Tesserion and Daeron.

flying high above. We go to the Riverlands, where Northmen are marching south across the Twins. We go to somewhere near the Trident, where Jason Lannister's army and traveling zoo comes within sight of Harrenhal. In Harrenhal, Daemon is gazing at his forces. Back on Dragonstone, Alyson continues to walk away. Thailand and Lohar steer the Triercrest fleet towards the Black Blockade. Somewhere...

Dun, dun, dun! We go to a dungeon where Otto Hightower is being held by someone. We don't know who. We go to the Crownlands where Laris and the King are sneaking out of the city. And then we end with Alicent and Rhaenyra looking to the future. What a montage. Damn. Okay, but what are we going to do next week?

You know what I mean? Like, I really would like to know what happens next week, please. Yes, please. Oh my gosh. Okay. Lots to talk about. I feel like we should probably just start in Essos, right? Mm-hmm. Essos pirates seem like they're having a good time. They really do. We texted about this a little bit. I feel like that's just the place to hang out all the time. It seems like, why are we squabbling over Westeros?

They're having fun in Essos, folks. The weather looks pretty good. Right? Icy palm trees. And they're singing songs and making jokes and mud wrestling. Yeah. They're chilling hard. Looks great. Okay, let's remind folks why Tylan de Lannister is there in the first place. Amon sent him. That's right. Amon sent him to make a deal with the Triarchy to bring them into the war, to break the...

A blockade that is strangling King's Landing and the economy of the Crownlands. And Tylan did a good job, but he is clearly worried that he might have struck a little too healthy of a deal for the Triarchy in terms of giving them the stepstones, which...

The crown had recently been fighting a long and protracted war over, and now he's just essentially giving them up at a stroke of a pen. And he is giving the triarchy the right to levy taxes throughout that region. I suppose they would hash that out later, but that seems like a big deal.

So what do you think about the narrative decision to begin this episode in a place where we really haven't spent much time until now? I mean, we did see Damon and Pentos a little bit last season, but that's really it. I loved it. New characters, new vibes. New characters. We meet Commander Lohar. Wonderful. Bad bitch. Bad bitch.

Man, again, the pirates are always great. Yeah. I love the pirates. Yeah. And I just love any widening of the world. Yes. I think it's so interesting and they've really balanced that well. And it really lets you...

understand how huge this fictional world is. So it's really, really fun. What did you think of it? I thought it was really interesting. I mean, I think it is fun just to get, I feel like Ryan Condal uses the word texture a lot. And I feel like this is one where we're getting new texture and that's really interesting. I also am thrilled by Lohar. Like she's just awesome. Really wonderful jolt of comedic energy. Let's hear the exchange between Lohar and Thailand.

What sort of man are you? I beg your pardon? A poet, a philosopher. I am the master of ships at King's Landing. You're thin. But also tall. I will not sail with a man who cannot best me. At what? That's a very important question. It turns out to be several things, including, as we mentioned, mud wrestling. And again, those pirates love to have fun. They love to have a good time.

They love to joke about cannibal stuff. Hey, you're coming to the cannibal feast tonight, right, Thailand? It's very important. Oh, my goodness. Well, we kind of wash the fun out of our palate with a vision of a furious Amon who has unilaterally burnt Sharpe's Point to the ground and

and is looking over his works with something like satisfaction, it seems like this is going to be Amon's vibe going forward. It's just, I am furious and lashing out. Yeah, increasingly unhinged and violent. Quite disturbing. And I was interested to see how disturbing it is to even people on the green side. Right. I mean, it really does seem like his strategy at this point is just like destruction for the sake of destruction, which is...

A very poor strategy, if you ask me. I mean, just because you have a giant dragon, you know. Yeah, it's the first sign of any kind of tough sledding. Eamon's immediate reaction is destroy. And, you know, Alison sees this and I think makes the correct call, which is maybe it's a good time to leave Kingsley. Yes. I was happier before I was queen. What would you think about leaving this place? Where would I go?

It's heartbreaking.

But now they're in this together in a large way as people who are on the sidelines of a war and being increasingly threatened with being pulled into it. Certainly on Helena's part, being asked to directly enter the war as a dragon rider.

And it's very clearly a thing that neither of them want. No, I mean, Alicent seems, yeah, extremely resistant to that idea, too, just for the sake of Helena. It seems like she's protecting her in a way that she hasn't necessarily in the past.

Yeah, and it says to Aemon in that first confrontation when Aemon grabs Helena and is like, where are you going? What is he going to do, drag her to the dragon pit and make her get on the dragon? Right. It says that she's the most gentle of our families. She should be protecting the weak. That means her, and yet you are thrusting her directly into the teeth of danger. Right.

I think that's the breaking point to me, like the real breaking point, don't you? I do. I do. I mean, I feel like Alicent, we have seen her sort of lose her patience with Aegon and Aemond over the course of these episodes, but I feel like she has still shown a lot of restraint, and I feel like in this interaction, that's gone. You know, she's just like, no, this is insane. You must stop. It's so interesting to wonder if Aegon might have been the better king, because...

He has a more political, gentle way of asking for things. Like he cares that people would hate him. Yeah. And Eamon just seems like the type of guy who is like, follow my orders immediately. Yes. And he makes some bad calls. And I think this is one of them. Yes. I do wonder if there could have been a version where he really laid out a valid argument to Helena and,

and said, you know, listen, I don't want you to actually have to burn people. We just need a show of strength. You know, I could see... Just fly around a bit. Right, yeah. Just, you know, intimidate some people on your dragon. I could see that she might do that. But yeah, the way he asks her then is just like, no, I'm not doing this. There's no way. Well, later on the episode when Helena is having that kind of dreamy vision reverie on the roof of the Red Keep, Aemon comes and tries the softer approach. Let's hear that.

Come with me to Harrenhal. We will lay waste to Daemon and his army. Let our enemies see that we will answer outrage with outrage. And if I refuse, will you ban me as you did Aegon? That is a lie. I saw it. You banned him and you let him fall. What you say is treason. Aegon will be king again. He's yet to see victory. He sits on a wooden throne and you, you'll be dead.

I think this is such an interesting scene because this could be the moment when Eamon is like, oh shit, you know a lot of things. I should keep you around in my pocket so that you can...

Give me the scoop. I suppose if she's giving him such bad news, though, it does make sense that his reaction is like, okay, I would rather you just didn't exist. That's a, I mean, that's a great point. If Eamon maybe was a wiser kind of guy, he might see that, okay, on Dragonback, maybe not a tremendous amount of value, but as someone who seemingly knows things, maybe you're tremendously valuable. Right.

It's wonderful to see Helena with this kind of confidence, too. It's awesome. Yeah. Like, the confidence of truth. Yes. You know, like, I saw it. I know it. I know you did it. Yeah. I watched it happen. Yeah. You did it. Yeah, it seems like whatever we're calling those skills prophetic, I suppose, she's really has come into them over the course of these two seasons in a really interesting way. Meanwhile, everybody's, it seems like, trying to escape the...

ship that will soon be aflame and sinking, it seems. Aegon and Larys are also about to hit the road. Let's play that clip of Larys proposing to Aegon that they just go for a little vacation, a little couple-week vacation away. They will be tired of endless deprivation and fear. They will hail the returning king, his fathers, true heir, Aegon the Victorious, risen from the ashes.

Aegon the Peacemaker. Aegon the Rebuilder. Aegon the Realm's Delight. The Realm's Delight. That is a throwback from season one, right? Right. That was Rhaenyra's nickname across the realm during her youth when she was a very, very popular figure across Westeros. Interesting that Larys is essentially proposing a version of Mysaria's plan. Let them take responsibility for the city. They broke it. They bought it. Things will be bad. Mm-hmm.

We come in. Everybody remembers, hey, it wasn't that bad when Aegon was king. And we reap the rewards. Yeah, it reminds me of something else I thought that was really interesting about what Helena said, which is that Aegon would sit on a wooden throne. Yeah, maybe the carriage that is carrying him to a ship somewhere to sail off to Braavos.

Interesting to find out that's where Laris put the money. That's pretty smart. Oh yeah, that is super smart. And I wonder, you know, Aegon must be thinking, well, if I do this, will I ever, it's nice to believe that I would return home to a

of the common folk. But will I? Would I ever come home? Might I be one of these sad figures just in exile forever? Well, it seems like that's probably one of the biggest themes running through this episode is sort of like, sure,

sure, I can survive, but at what cost and what's the point? You know, like, I think that's a really similar theme in the conversation between Kristen Cole and Gwaine also. Oh, my gosh. Sad, sad Cole. Yeah. Emo Kristen Cole. I love emo Cole. We gotta hear it. Desire for women has brought me grief after grief. Then resist it. I would that it was so simple. Your brothers in the Kingsguard line a way. Do they? Perhaps they do. Or perhaps all men are corrupt.

And true honor is a mist that melts in the morning. That is a bleak philosophy.

Man, go have some lunch, man. Poor Cole. Your blood sugar is low. Yeah. A snack and a nap and a hug. I love this really beautifully written exchange. I love that part of it is Sir Gawain saying, hey, stop sleeping with my sister. You are a sworn knight of the Kingsguard. Like, stop doing it. And Cole is basically like, no.

No, I won't. I can't. And I won't. No. Yeah. There's no point. No. There's also no point in any of it anyway. Why does it matter? Probably. Yeah. It could be any time now. Yeah.

Well, I think he, like Alicent and many other characters really are. I mean, the whole question of like, I followed, I did what I was supposed to do. I followed the rules. I did what I was told. I expected a certain outcome. That is not happening. So then what do I do with that? And how do I move forward from there? You know? Cole showed, I think, some canny political knowledge here when

Gwyneth says, well, I send you to the wall. I'll have you sent to the wall. And Cole says, yeah, you could do that. And then Alicent's name and the Hightower name will be tarred for years, generations down throughout history as this terrible figure who slept with a Kingsguard knight. That, I think, is the only thing that keeps this details, the details of this affair from leaking out

Even wider. I don't think Gawain's going to want to talk about this beyond just he and Cole. Mm-hmm. Well, it is interesting how much that also is or the extent to which that is a motivation for people in this episode, too, because that comes up with Alicent and Rhaenyra later also. Great point. How do you think you're going to be remembered if you do this, which is...

A really interesting question. And I think, yeah, I mean, I think you could totally argue that Cole doesn't really give a fuck at this point how he's remembered. Yeah. Speaking of Rhaenyra, let's go over to Dragonstone where you have to wonder how this dragon seed plan is going to go considering the way some of the dragon seeds, just all really, just all are comporting themselves. Let's play the clip.

Remove your feet from the table. I'd rather not, Ulf. It's not up to you, Ulf. Who's it up to then, boy? He is the prince, Ulf. Prince Jocerys Velaryon. Prince Jocerys Velaryon? Right here. Who'd have thought it? He lives here. I'll have an apology from you. The young prince! Look at that hair. As dark as they say. Let them tell us we don't have Targaryen blood, eh?

Feet on Aegon's painted table? How dare you? I think Ulf needs a little bit more driver's ed before we put him on the dragon, don't you think? Yes, and some etiquette classes also. I get it from his perspective. Everybody does need to loosen up a little. But this is tremendously, like, this is very destabilizing, not to mention.

The hair thing. Ooh, yeah, don't say that. Ooh, yeah, come on. Everybody talks about your hair. Now I get to see it in real life. Don't do that. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. That's it. Do not. No. Yeah, I think this is clearly going to be a big problem. And if it goes sideways in any kind of way, it's, I think, going to be a real mark on Raniera's resume. It's going to be something that people are going to say, yeah,

Rhaenyra, we told you so. You know, even Jace. I think Jace will probably be in charge of criticism should this plan go sideways. Yes, I agree. I think it's going to be a huge mark against Rhaenyra. And yeah, Ulf especially just seems... I mean, he's chaos. He is a chaos Muppet. He's completely out of control. So then what do you do with that is like a huge question, I think. I also, like, it was interesting in this episode...

I think it makes sense for Jace's character to be this frustrated and angry at this point, given the way things have gone. But it's also heartbreaking to see him kind of lose his comportment because I feel like that's something that I've always admired about him up until now, you know? It's been all that he has had. Right. You're exactly right. That's such a good point because at every stage of his life, he's been faced with these things.

Right. Right. And he is sought to defend himself against them by giving himself the bearing of this regal prince who comports himself with the utmost honor. Right. The utmost kind of noble bearing and dignity. Yes. And now that is gone. That doesn't matter. Yeah. And he's pissed about it.

And when he goes to talk to his mother about it, she is fully in on, well, this is the plan of the gods. They have blessed me with this. Look how it's working. And then Rhaenyra, meanwhile...

Right.

the various voices telling her, you can't do this, you can't do that. Now she is going to attack. Yeah. I think Hugh was pretty shocked to discover that they are going to be burning civilians in these attacks. I would imagine hard for Hugh to not imagine people just like him with families, working trades in the various cities that they are going to attack very, very soon. Yeah. Quite troubling. Yeah.

How do you think that's going to play on his conscience? I don't think Ulf is too worried about it, but I think Hugh is clearly worried about it. No, Ulf doesn't really care. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, with Hugh, I think this is another interesting one. I love the idea of a driver's ed. But like, sure, Rainier made that one stump speech before most people got horrifically burned to death. But it seems to me like if I were Hugh, I would need her to make a very strong case

To incentivize me. Like, sure, the dragon thing is cool, but also there's no precedent of any of this. So like, do I get a castle? Like, am I set for life if I do this for you? Or are you just going to kind of kick me to the curb when you don't need me anymore? That's a great point because Rhaenyra offers a knighthood. And that seems like in a world with

zero upward social mobility, like a pretty good deal. But you have to wonder if you're Hugh and Ulf and even Adam, uh,

If you might not be thinking, wait, don't I have a tremendous amount of leverage? Like, shouldn't I get more than that? Yeah. Shouldn't I get some sort of title or something? Right. Considering I'm risking my life and I'm playing a very, very integral part in this war. And I wonder if that will come into play because I think Ulf certainly is going to be someone who wonders, wait, is that enough? Is that really enough? Oh, yeah. No, that makes sense. I also think it's interesting. It feels that scene really felt to me like a family dinner scene.

which also kind of threw me off where it's like, just have a meeting. You know what I mean? Like meet in the King's council, talk through stuff. Like I, I think there's like some weird confusion around like, which makes sense how to treat these people. Right. Because like, yes, they are obviously dragon riders. However, like,

And yes, they are family, right? To varying degrees of distance. But you all obviously have some Targaryen blood. But then, like, does that mean we have to hang out all the time? Right. Rhaenyra now is having to, like, argue for the value of...

manners and noble comportment and dignity. Ulf is like, can't you all loosen up? And it was interesting to me that Rhaenyra didn't take the opportunity to say, well, here's why we do it like this. Yes. Here is why we are mannered to each other because...

feud between us could end up tearing the realm apart. So we act with this very, very measured dignity. It's interesting that she didn't do that. And so you have to feel like this is, again, I say, this thing with Ulf is going to be a problem. Yeah.

I cannot state this clearly enough. It feels like it's going to be a problem. I think you are absolutely correct. So under the category of other things that feel like they could be problems, should we go to Heron Hall? Yeah, let's go. Very interesting things afoot at Heron Hall, namely, well, let's start with Alfred Groom's suggestion. That's kind of what I meant is the potentially problematic things that have occurred in this episode.

If Alfred had arrived a week or two weeks earlier, I think this message might have been received differently. But Damon is not in that headspace anymore, thankfully, right? Yes. Yes. It almost seemed to me like Damon postponed his reaction to that, and it wasn't until after he saw what he saw that...

in the gods would that he really was like oh yeah that he really really really don't you think yeah i i think that's right i think that the various visions had been leading him here yes let's play this exchange with alice when you came here you were a closed fist you wish to bend the world to your will but you've discovered i think that this world will not be governed there are omens here for those who seek them you do not scoff i'm no longer inclined to

I'm pleased to eat it. It was interesting to me to see Alice's demeanor during this. She seemed nervous. Like, I'm not sure how this will go when I show you this, which I found interesting. Yeah. Let's talk about those visions. Oh, my God. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. How many times did you watch that? Several times. Yeah.

And again, it seems like he sees everything. I love what you said in the recap. He sees all the Game of Thrones. All eight seasons. We saw them. Yeah. You know, he sees the three-eyed raven. He sees the red meteor from season two of Game of Thrones. He sees Daenerys' dragons hatching. He sees white walkers. The thing with Bloodraven is interesting. So Bloodraven is the three-eyed raven. Got it.

Bloodraven is a nickname that Brynden Rivers, a Targaryen bastard, was given because he had this birthmark and he was given this nickname that wasn't necessarily something that you would say to his face. And then he becomes the Three-Eyed Raven when he goes north of the Wall and communes with the Heart Tree in that cave north of the Wall where Bran finds him later. And this is almost a pre-Branden.

blood raven type thing where daemon is communing with the heart tree to take in the visions and i think you're right it it this fundamentally changed daemon as a person like he's a different person now after seeing yes i think so too well and he also sees reyniera with a crown on at the throne for the record yeah he knows that how did you interpret that because i felt like that

He knows that she will be queen and that she has to be queen. That's how I interpreted that also. Right. Yeah.

I think also what happened there is similar to what we saw Rhaenyra go through earlier in this season where she is really confronting the realization that the story is bigger than just her. I think that's what that was for Daemon, right? Is that like, oh, I'm actually just a tiny piece in this giant puzzle and...

Yes. And I will play my role in it, essentially. Now, what's interesting is the play the role aspect of it. Let's return to that conversation as this story goes forward, because I would imagine Damon sees his own end, whatever that is. Yeah. And yet he will go through with the things I would imagine that will lead him towards that end. Yeah. It's a very and it's the same with Rhaenyra, you know, who knows what will happen next.

If Rhaenyra does gain the throne, how she'll act as ruler, how her reign will end. But all of that leading to that place that doesn't necessarily seem like it will end in a good place is... It's interesting that Daemon believes, well, we have to go there, even though, I mean, he basically says, we have to stand against this...

of the Night King, and we can't. We can't actually stand against it. So it's this very nihilistic vision. And so when Rhaenyra comes to Harrenhal with backup, just in case, wow, she finds that Daemon is a different man. Let's play the clip. I wasn't expecting you. It seems rather a lapse in foresight. I see you have done well here. They are sworn to me, and not a moment too soon. And to whom are you sworn?

I love how she's looking around. Her volume goes much higher. It's like, let's let everybody hear this one. And then it must have been a tense moment for Rhaenyra when Daemon steps forward and then in High Valyrian, pitched down just between them, says basically, I believe in it. The Song of Ice and Fire, I've seen it. I know what it is. You're right. That must have been a shocking moment. And she says...

You sound like father. You sound like Viserys. And indeed he does. He really, really does. He is devoutly dedicated now, it seems, to the Song of Ice and Fire. Shocking turn. It does. I mean, the way he bends the knee, too, is gorgeous. The way she grabs his hand. It's a beautiful scene. I mean, they both perform it gorgeously. I love the moment, too, when she's like, you better not do this again, motherfucker. This was your only... Yeah, you better not. This is your third strike. I love the little...

it's not quite a wink, but this really interesting exchange of looks between them. Damon's like, now watch me do the thing that boys are good at. And then he gives the remember the titan speech. War! War! We fight for our queen! We fight for

Barbie goes crazy. And then he turns around like with this look on his face, like, yeah, like, look, I love Sir Simon. We're here for you. In the background clapping. Yeah. So good. And then we cut to Rhaenyra's face and she's got this look on her face like, here we go. Good job, but don't do it again. Clear eyes, full hearts. Can't lose. Yeah, can't lose. And then we must talk about this shocking meeting.

between Alicent and Rhaenyra. Amazing. Was not expecting this. Amazing. I love it. Let's play the clip. I've been, I think, mistaken. In what? I was raised to believe there was an order to things, that there was security in following the path laid out for us. I resented you, I think, for caring so little for any of it, for knowing what you wanted. I did not know what I wanted.

Olivia Cooke is amazing. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Because you could really feel that even though she had come all of this way, braving many dangers, she wasn't really sure she was going to propose that Rhaenyra invade. She turns around right before this. She turns around and you could feel her thinking, should I do it? Should I say it? And then basically says, okay, here's what's going to happen.

Eamon's going to leave the city, and in three days' time, you come, we open the gates. It's really an incredible proposition, right? Yeah. What were your thoughts watching this? One of my first thoughts was just the script is outstanding. Like, even that clip we heard. Outstanding. You know, I mean, Rainier consistently pushing it. Like, why? What are you doing here? What are you trying to do? Yeah, what is this? I thought was super interesting. I loved Alicent's...

You know, I mean, again, I think this really does mirror kind of what Kristen Cole is talking about, too, right? Where it's sort of like, well, listen, everything's fucked. I am trying to do the best I can for myself and my people. And obviously, I mean, this has been a long time coming for her. Also, I think in terms of like, you know, we've talked about Allison knows she's not on the right side at this point.

So I think this is really her being like, okay, I think I have figured out a way for everybody to, for the right thing to happen. I think the egg on piece is horrific, but I think that also makes sense as like a sacrifice that she has to make at this point.

But yeah, I mean, we've talked about it too with that scene in episode three. Just seeing the two of them in a room together is magnificent every time. It really is. The egg on piece is what a horrendous choice for a mother to make. And I thought a little bit...

cruel of Rhaenyra. Oh, for sure. To put it in the terms that she put it. I mean, she basically says, listen, I'm going to execute. I'm going to do it in front of everyone. And I have to do that. You understand that, right? That's going to be part of this. I think it's cruel, but it also feels realistic, right? It does feel like it's what would have to happen. Absolutely. We can't just send him to the wall. He was the king. Then he's a threat forever. Right. Up there. Yeah.

We have to do this. You recognize this, right? Yeah. But I guess you're right. Cruel, maybe not. She seems to take some satisfaction in laying it out, for sure. I think you're right. And saying...

We've been pretending a little bit in this kind of fantasy dream that we've both had that this could end in a clean way. Well, this is the way that it would have to end if it was going to end quickly. And still, you feel for Allison, who, Raniro's right, history will be tremendously unkind to Allison over this.

her family will be tremendous. Like, she will not be welcomed back in the halls of the Hightowers after this. But does history have to know, though? It doesn't. It doesn't necessarily have to know. That's true. I think there would be a lot of incentive on both sides to kind of tamp down this part of it. Right. You know, and not talk about it. Do you think that Alicent is making a reasonable decision? Yes. I think this is... This reads to me as Alicent's last...

effort, essentially. It's like she is backed into such a corner. She has examined every possibility, including running away and getting the hell out of there. And she is hopeful that she still has some degree of power. She has some information about what Amon is up to. So her thought is, I'm going to bring this to someone who used to be my dearest friend.

And maybe we can find a way. I mean, what she has proposed, yes, Aegon would have to die. But it does still sound like the least bloodshed option. She says, yeah. Don't you think? She says you can take it without bloodshed. I think that's crucial for her. Right. Now, you have to wonder if this is not more fantastical thinking from Alicent because...

Aemond is not going to just quit. Like, you're going to have to bring him down. That's true. You're still going to have to confront Aemond. Also, there's the question of, I mean, it kind of seems like we may have passed the moment of no return with Rhaenyra where I think she's, I mean, she has said she's game for bloodshed, you know? Like, she's ready to throw down.

So is it even an appealing idea to her? That's right. And there are multiple armies now on the march. There is a big battle brewing in the Riverlands soon. And...

I think much to Alison's chagrin, like, I can't imagine any of those parties just saying, okay, I guess the issue's been decided. We quit. Yeah, it's kind of funny. Rhaenyra almost could have said the same thing to Alison that Alison said to Rhaenyra at the end of their last conversation. But, like, it's too late. It's already happening. It's too late. Right. And then finally we go to those armies on the march and that montage. So much to unpack in this montage. Dude, whoo-hoo-hoo!

Dude. I know, even just hearing it in the recap, it's like, oh yeah, that's all the things. It's all happening. Okay, we gotta unpack this. Otto, in a cage. Yes. We see light. I read this as someone is approaching him with a torch, although that's off camera. We don't see who that is. But...

What a reveal. Otto is a prisoner. What do you make of this? I don't know. This is a really interesting one. I mean, Alison, how many episodes ago was Alison like, why hasn't Otto answered any of my letters? We see her ask Wayne about it. I am kind of shocked that no one has thought to look for him before now. Right? I think that's kind of my main frustration at this point is like...

Like, he's a dude who is in a very prominent position of power. You know, it's not like he's just sort of like a rando who could have snuck off. So I don't know. I mean, going through the list of, like, who could have him captive, I don't think it's the blacks. Do you? I mean, I feel like we would know. I think it's an unaligned or loosely lined party. Maybe not a new person, but someone who's not quite so cleanly...

allied with either side. I'll say this. Okay. The montage appears to go geographically in order from place to place. It doesn't leap, say, from the west coast of West Horse all the way to the Narrow Sea. Sure. It goes from Dragonstone as a kind of reset point where we see Alicent walking towards her ship. It goes to the Vale.

where we see Raina, then the Riverlands, stays in the Riverlands at Harrenhal, back to Dragonstone, where we go just a little jump across the Narrow Sea to the Triarchy, which is moving towards the gullet to challenge the blockade. We stay there in the Narrow Sea with Alan and Corlys, and then we go back to the Vale with Raina, and then from there, we jump to Otto. Interesting. So,

That made me wonder, does Lady Jane have Otto? Lady Jane seemed pretty pissed. She seemed upset about the baby dragon issue. She was expecting to get an adult dragon and send a baby dragon and some eggs. And she also handled that in a way where you understood she was frustrated, but it also seemed like

She was the type of person to have other contingencies in play, and you have to wonder if this is one of them. Interesting. Did Otto go as a secret emissary saying, hey, I hear you have some notable princes and princesses of the black side. Perhaps you could hand them over to me as prisoners. And maybe she said, well, I'll seize you and then have you as a bargaining chip.

Or could it be someone else? You mentioned the fact that it's weird that the Hightowers aren't looking for him. Yes, you would think. Which made me wonder, did Darren and Ormond Hightower, who is leading the army as an emissary of the Hightower family, did they depose Otto and say, listen, you've made enough trouble for...

We'll throw you in the cells and we're going to lead this, the efforts for the Hightower family without you. It made me wonder if maybe there was some kind of coup that happened. That is really interesting. I mean, it's wild to think about with Otto because I don't,

It seems like he's more of a bargaining chip than like a threat that needs to be neutralized, which I suppose is why he's still alive. Well, you have to imagine he was active the whole time, even after he left Kingsland. Right, that's the thing. And then the other, yeah, the other suspect, we've heard his name mentioned, Dalton Greyjoy. Oh, right. Of the Greyjoys, there's been some talk of bringing him in as somebody

you know, on the side of the Greens to break the blockade that was proposed in the Green Council. And you have to... Did Otto go to Dalton Greyjoy and say, hey, come to our side? And then Dalton took him prisoner? Maybe that happened? But we won't know until next season, and I can't wait to find out. I think this is going to be something people are talking about. Yeah, that's a really, really interesting one. And just to clarify, when you said Ormond, that's Otto's brother, right? That's Otto's brother. Okay. Right. Cool. Well...

Wow. Uh-huh. What a season. Now we're going to get to all of our pressing questions, including who's got Otto Hightower with none other than House of the Dragon showrunner Ryan Condal. We are so very happy to welcome back friend of the podcast, showrunner Ryan Condal. Hello, friend. Welcome. Hi. Is that a, do you get like a badge? Do I get, do I get a coin or something? Yeah, we'll make you a badge. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

No, it's great to be here, guys. Thanks. Season two? It's out there? How does it feel? The experience is very weird, and I feel like this is when you hear about people that don't like to cook because you spend, you know, three hours slaving over the stove in the kitchen and sweating and grating your fingers on the zester and cutting yourself on the cutting board. Yeah.

And then in 15 minutes, the meal is over and people are looking for dessert. I think that's the writ large that is the experience of show running just in general, especially something at this scale where it's such a long effort to bring it to light. And then really within, I mean, less than two months, you know, we premiered on June 16th and here it is early August and it's all over. So I don't think I'm going to...

quit show running because of it. But it is an amazing thing how quickly it gets consumed. But that's media for you. Well, I'm glad we're here so that we can help like ask you about the ingredients and talk a little about what the zesting process was like and all that stuff. Because then at least we can kind of celebrate the process a little, right? Very good. I mean, it is really interesting, though, to think about your writing process, especially when it comes to a season finale, because you

You are building tension. You are introducing new characters. You are setting up season three. I mean, there's so many different pieces and elements that have to be at play. And I think one of the most interesting ones in this episode is the fact that you ended with this montage that kind of touches on all of our main characters and the gathering armies across the realm.

When did you know that montage was going to be an ingredient of this feast, if you don't mind me keeping going with this analogy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love it. We're writers. We love little literary devices to carry us along. I think that was always kind of baked into that episode from the very beginning because now that the season's out, we can kind of talk about what this is. And we wanted this to be a – even though it's a show about –

dragons and prophecies and things like that. We wanted this to be an as accurate a depiction of what medieval war was like.

Just because Aegon says, I declare war in episode two doesn't mean that suddenly there are Blackhawk helicopters descending on these medieval walled cities and fast roping guys in. You have to raise armies. These places don't have standing armies. They have to train men and fashion armor and weapons. And then they have to set them to march. And wars over the throne like this always end at King's Landing. That's where everybody is eventually headed. Yeah.

And many of their closest allies or the staunchest allies, i.e. the Lannisters and the Hightowers, are very, very far away. So we couldn't just turn the page and have suddenly all-out war. So this – if you think about the first season as the calm before the storm, you know, before the storm broke and the dragons danced, that famous line that George wrote in Fire and Blood. Season two is really a – if not a cold war, it was the March 2 war.

And we're now literally seeing that at the end of the season, whereas now the fuses have been lit and season three is going to start with a bang. I mean, it's going to—we are—there is no turning back now, which I hope is clear at the end of this. There is no more dithering and looking for peace. It is an all-out fight. And so that's the thing I, you know—

hope that our very sophisticated audience, and I thank everybody for coming back week to week and staying with us, is in for the character stuff and the political intrigue and all of that while we see the bigger machinations going on. And of course, that means the entrenched hatred is only getting worse and worse and worse as sin begets sin begets sin across the...

right across eight episodes of the season and now going into season three. Are we allowed to ask you who's holding Otto Hightower prisoner? You can. Why are you just going right to it, Jason? You can. You can ask away. No, I think that's best left for the next time. So this finale starts in the Free Cities with Tylan Lannister. He is facing these rogue pirates, which include a wonderful new character, Admiral Lohar Shirokko.

Why start here? I'd love to hear about that decision. That scene just felt like...

first of the episode sort of scene when you're going somewhere that unique and different all of a sudden it just felt like the right way to open the episode to remind us that oh yeah two episodes ago Tylan was sent on this insane mission to go and raise an alliance with one of our bitterest rivals from the first season and let's see how that goes so it felt really fun to drop us in there and I adore Jefferson Hall's performance across that entire episode it's just delightful and I think you see a Tylan's been very

stiff, I think, through the whole season. He's just always the most serious person at the council table. He's always kind of looking for people to have sense and logic. And then we throw him into this situation where he's forced to vamp a bit. And I'm delighted the way he played it. It's the hardest thing to hit in...

I think, in dramatized entertainment, which is humor through character versus humor through telling jokes. And of course, there are jokes in there, but I think the humor of that, Shirako is so bonkers, as we described her in the script, that you need the kind of quote-unquote classic straight man in the comedy routine to play against it, because it's him sort of fumbling for his lines that just makes it so great. But really, really enjoyed that. But that felt to us like the right place to open the episode, given everything else was

already cooking kind of coming out of seven. So now you set up, oh, this is this new problem, at least for the realm and for the blacks. And then here's where everybody else is in the equation. I would love to hear just like as much as possible about Lohar Scirocco because she's just like,

So badass and fun and another, like, very clear agent of chaos, which is kind of delightful in this situation, too. I mean, she's just a delight. Yes, we are super thrilled with Abigail Thorne's performance and to be able to cast her. I mean, really, it was kind of the ideal casting. She's perfect. You know, we were just looking for a character to just bring an entirely new dimension to a, I don't want to say villain, because, I mean, she's really just, as everybody is in the show, she's just another person trying to do her job. Yeah.

whether you agree with it or not. But just an antagonistic force, certainly, for the sea snake, if not also for the Greens. We'll see how that goes for Thailand and his alliance with her. But yeah, we just wanted to bring somebody that had this kind of...

presence on screen and could embody this sort of, I don't know, pirate culture that we've sort of talked about with the triarchy but haven't really seen. And within her, she's a timeless character in this lovely way where she could be in a modern movie, this could be somebody from a pirate movie, or it could be somebody from a medieval fantasy like this. And I just love the kind of color and layers that she brought to it. And she really, it's not an easy performance to give because you're really

you have to find this center line in it where it doesn't... You can stray about 15 degrees on either side,

But then once you stray too much, it sort of becomes tonally something else. And I just think she nailed it. And she also trusted us to, she would go there and then trusting us to kind of make it in the edit, find the full through line in the edit. There are a couple characters who refer to Lohar as he. You obviously just now have been using she, her pronouns. Tell us about pronouns in this situation. Really, the idea is it comes down to, this is a woman in a man's world.

role as a fleet commander, and this is a highly patriarchal society. And she has kind of played the David Bowie role her whole life. It's a bit of androgyny and sort of tends one way or the other. And I think...

What we're really trying to say is in this time, all these salty sea dogs that she's surrounded with, all these men, their brains cannot process the idea that they're saluting a woman who is leading this massive, you see that fleet of ships at the end. That tracks. So she presents herself as a masculine character in the classic sense, and then they sort of just accept it, and that's why they all

you know, they all follow her. But we coming in from the outside with a modern eye obviously see what's going on, but it's part of playing with the difference between our sort of the modern lens that we are all watching the show through and the very backwards lens, which most of the characters in the show look at life through. Let's talk about Damon. Previously, when you had joined us, you had talked about how Damon's arc was the one you were the most proud of. And now that we've

seen him come to this place where he considered his loyalty to Rhaenyra. He faced various existential crises at Harrenhal. And now he's come to a place where he is seemingly more committed to Rhaenyra or maybe something larger than Rhaenyra than ever. Talk about bringing all of that to the show.

Yeah, I mean, that was the, in many ways, the scariest arc to undertake. And, you know, credit to Matt for really trusting us and also really going for it on his end in the performance of the story. And I think it's so compelling because of what he brings to it. And you see Damon going through this

this real pathos in his, in his experience there. These are emotions that I don't think you could have wrung out of Damon if you didn't have him run into the, if you weren't actively drugging him. Yeah, exactly. And really, really he had, there was so much, uh, sort of unfinished business or unclosed loops with him and Viserys going back to the, uh,

to the first season. And that was intentional in the writing. It wasn't like there were things that we didn't cover up. It was intentionally left that way. But in looking at where we wanted Damon to go, we felt like bringing Viserys back into the equation. Almost like everything that led up to Viserys, Lena and young Rhaenyra and Damon's mom, were really all building to this two-episode arc that he has with Viserys and closing the loop of their relationship. And then that opens the door for...

sitting with old Viserys and Viserys literally offering him the crown, the thing that we all think that Daemon has always wanted. Although I say it's a little more nuanced than that. I think he just wanted Viserys to say, it could be yours. So he could say, no, no, that's too much responsibility for me. Actually, I'm good on that. Yeah. But that brings Daemon around to, it's that internal arc that we talked about with him having to sort out all of these

demons from his past and decide whether or not he was going to continue to live in this world of

sort of narcissism, arrogance, self-centeredness, and believed that it was all about him? Or was he able to open his eyes and see that he can have a role in this that's very important, even if it's not the top role? And he can have a major role in the future of the Targaryen dynasty as Rhaenyra's king consort and as her justice or her hand, and also the leader of her massive dragon host to put her on that throne. And that's the thing that I think Daemon was in conflict with ever since

he put the crown on Rhaenyra's head is, can I actually play that role? And to us, the only way to really bring Daemon around to that place where he could make that choice, where he now fully bends the knee to Rhaenyra and says, I'm fighting for you, is to put him through this kind of supernatural experience they went through at Harrenhal. And using the, you know, using the accepted sort of

storytelling language of the show to get him there. And this made it undeniable, and the experience he had with Alice and the tree made it all undeniable to him. And he now sees there's something bigger out there, and he wants to be a part of it. Yeah, it is really interesting to think about how much of that clarity really does seem to come from that final scene you're referring to, where he...

is so tangibly realizing that this entire story is so much bigger than he ever thought it was before. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a stepped process. I mean, I think if you had just shown him that thing in episode three, he would have passed it off as- No, that would have felt really unnerved. Yeah, and passed it off as swamp gas or something, like he sort of says to Alice in episode six. But the idea was that that was the reward for the journey that he went through. Really, to us, the major scene-

is that challenge that Viserys gives him with the crown. Do you want it still? Because that's really where he has to make the choice because from the moment he peeled out of Dragonstone on Caraxes and flew angry over to Harrenhal, he was thinking about, well, maybe, I don't think I'm going to fight Rhaenyra for the throne, but maybe I'll just go claim it first. Maybe I'll just take it. Yeah, and then she can decide whether she wants to rule at my side and we'll see how this goes.

And that obviously is a thing, it's a slippery slope, which can go very badly very quickly because we know how patriarchically focused this realm is, as Alfred Broome sort of embodies in that final episode. Daemon is so the prototypical king that everybody thinks they want. He's the master swordsman, he's the dragon rider, he's handsome, he gives great speeches.

He lacks certain levels of nuance in decision-making. It's very sort of black and white, this or that, right or wrong. His sort of external arc, as I talked about the whole season, was I go to Harrenhal and I have to raise this very large army if we have hope of taking the throne. And then his internal arc is, can I get over myself to do that and deliver that army to Rhaenyra?

And that's the thing that we see him going through as he's fighting to jam this peg into the hole of the Riverlands, trying to bend the Riverlands to his will and to accept the Targaryen ways of fire and blood. And they just don't do it. They're made of mud, as Alice tells him. He has to learn and accept their ways. He has to ask for help, as he does with Alice.

and he has to sort out his stuff with Viserys and then decide what kind of man he's going to be moving forward, both as Daemon Targaryen, but also as a husband to Rhaenyra. He's probably still going to do bad shit. It's going to be a little bit more maybe thought out.

So when it comes to like the specific things that you are flashing through in this vision, how are you thinking of what Damon is seeing? Like how much sense is he actually able to make of what he is seeing in those moments? I think it makes, I think it,

I think it's more clear to the audience that's watching it than it is to Damon. I think Damon saw some horrible things that he can't explain. He knows that there's this image of this horrible war that's coming. He sees himself falling through a void or through water. I think he certainly experienced those things. But I think when you crash into the White Walkers, I don't think he knows what he's looking at. He just knows that that's not human or those aren't men.

I think on a very base level, he's seen dead dragons. He's seen these eggs and then this, you know, beautiful Targaryen woman who they've hatched to. But we know who that is, but he doesn't. And that's the fun of the sort of dramatic irony of the sequence is Damon just knows that he's experienced something very viscerally that's thrown a lot of images at him that he can't explain. And for us, there's a lot more to interpret from the imagery. Alice's demeanor in this

This scene, this collection of scenes is so interesting. Damon wakes to find her on the edge of his bed and she's got tears in her eyes before she takes him to the godswood and tells him, you know, he's ready for this thing he's about to see. Tell us about that. What is what's going on with Alice? She seems so almost lost.

she seems really sad to have to do this. Yeah. Alice is a very tortured character and we're not done with her. We love Gail Rankin and her performance. We have much more to explore with her, so I don't want to say too much. But there is a very interesting story that has yet to come to the surface with her that we're excited about. I'll say she understood Damon better than maybe we thought she did at the beginning because she...

She's come into this world with a lot of baggage herself. And I think she's working through something as well, trying to find her way through sort of her existence there at Harrenhal and her own place in the world. And frankly, on a very simple level, Sarah Hess always says,

Alice is just very lonely, just on a very human level, because this castle is so empty. You know, Simon Strong is nice, but I mean, that's a guy you hear in the sort of spirit or medium world, these people that just could walk into the most haunted house in the world and have a good night's sleep there because they're just not tuned into that level. He's a squid.

And that's Simon. He's never had a bad dream at Harrenhal. He looks at all these people that come here. I've heard all the curses, but I sleep just fine. Bring me my venison.

But so Alice just doesn't, she found in Damon, I think more of a kindred spirit than maybe she thought at the very beginning. And I think she knows on a sort of character, there's a lot going on there, but on a sort of base character level, she has to do this thing, but she also knows that it's likely going to send him away. Speaking of someone who is tuned into the spirit world, I mean, of course, Helena here is tuned into some kind of way.

What an incredible reveal of, you know, Helena's abilities to a member of her family, to Eamon. Is this something, do you think that he's sensed? Or is this a shocking moment for him? I mean, I think he'd be a fool not to have sensed it. I mean, I think Eamon is probably the one person in this family that's been more tuned in to Helena. It just seems like he's such a quiet observer. And certainly if he wasn't, when she said to him in episode five, was it worth the price? Yeah.

I think he knew exactly what she was coming at him with. So this, I don't think, is a surprise to him. And I think it's why Eamon fears her a bit, because she has something that he can't really—

or understand. It's so fascinating. I think partly because, I mean, in this scene, I feel like you can kind of see him go through the like, oh shit, this person could be really valuable to me, but also she's giving me some very negative information and I'd kind of rather she just didn't exist. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a complicated thing and I like that her most undeniable show of strength across the show is this moment with the scariest person alive

Certainly on her side of the family. And I just love it as this, because Helena is so confident in her growing ability, which I think as things are getting worse and worse, Helena is maybe not seeing more, but maybe it's becoming clearer to her. Like we always talked about

whatever is going on with her that I think it was for a long time it was a curse to her because she would see these things like the beast beneath the boards and she would have no idea what it was it was just haunting her and then it would take the beast literally coming out from beneath the boards in the dragon pit for her to go oh that's what that was it's like deja vu where you realize it's sort of after the fact but I think now she's a little bit more tuned in she's reading the poetry that's going on in her mind a little bit more clearly and certainly it's working here with whatever she's you know she's seeing from from Amon and

And I think that makes her powerful, if anybody was to figure out this ability that she has. It also makes her quite scary, I think, to her enemies. And not that Eamon's a classic enemy in that sense, but she certainly has information that

potentially could make her an enemy to Amon. It's information that Amon doesn't want to be explicit. No. And of course, we see her in Damon's vision. She's there in a present tense way. Tell us about that.

Yeah, I mean, it's just one of these – this is one of those, like, one-time moments that happens when the sort of celestial bodies align in the magics in this world. And obviously the magic that Daemon and Alistair tapped into a different magic, quote-unquote, than whatever Helena is capable of. But there was some kind of – whatever power was going on there in the godswood in that moment –

for Damon, it allowed a bit... There was a touch of crossover between these worlds where we see them crossing. And look, whether Damon actually sees Helena or whether that's Helena seeing Damon, I think that's part of the fun of... I don't...

I don't think we should explicate too much of this stuff because I think the fun of it is the interpretation. But there obviously is a handoff that goes on at some point in there where you're with Damon and then suddenly you're with Helena. And that was done intentionally. But certainly we know that Helena has seen Damon and seen what he's gone through. And we just talked about it as –

Magic is very powerful in this time because the world is very rich in dragons. And George had always said that the magic had gone out of the world when all the dragons died off. Well, this is the point when the world is most rich with dragons and everything is very heightened. And it's just creating a sort of frequency that's allowing these things to cross over and communicate a bit.

It's been so interesting to see how these different characters grapple with their own agency in this world, their role in the story, so to speak, their fate. And I think one of the most interesting ones was Kristen Cole, who is just having a time. He is really struggling with it.

He has... He should get a pen out because he's become a poet of sadness in this episode. Um...

Talk to us about what Kristen Cole is going through in this moment. Oh, poor Cole. Yeah. Yeah, I think we always talked about Rook's Rest, that end of that amazing last, what is it, six, seven minutes of Rook's Rest that's solely told in Cole's POV of being at ground zero, lucky enough to survive or cursed enough to survive that and to see how much the world has changed that immediately now the dragons have been introduced into combat and how little...

a single man on a horse means. Even when he's as skilled as Cole and the commander of this huge host as Cole, it's meaningless. You know, dust beneath their feet, as he says to Gawain.

And he's been carrying that since the end of episode four. And because this world doesn't have trauma counseling and the things that we offer to veterans of war now in this world, Cole has no way to get it out. And we know this is a very canned man to begin with. He's all bottled up inside. He tried with Allison, but she was so angry with him in episode five, it went nowhere. So he's just been carrying this and trying to figure out, well, what do I do in this situation?

in this world, given that what I've seen and where I know where this is all headed, and it's terrible for any foot soldier in this war, it's going to be a bad end. And because all he knows is the Othi swore as a knight, the Othi swore as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Othi now swore his hand, he's got to just keep fighting it. But in his mind, he knows where it all ends for all of them. And I think it's given him, it is a bit dark and nihilistic, but I think it's in an odd way given him peace.

And focus because he kind of, he's seen the end of it, at least in his mind, and that he knows where he's headed. Gwaine wasn't ready for that, though. Poor Gwaine. Yeah, poor Gwaine was like, okay, that's a lot. Are you okay, bro? I mean, it is interesting to think about how many different characters are confronting that idea of like, okay, well, I did all the things I thought I was supposed to do.

And this outcome is completely different from what I was told it would be. And how do I reconcile that? Yeah. One of the things that we really wanted to explore in this show, that this show gave us the unique advantage of exploring, is how different warfare is when there are dragons on both sides of the conflict. And yes, we wanted to show all of the delicious spectacle that we've shown across the season, and particularly our big episodes here.

But because it's HBO and because it's Game of Thrones and the world of Song of Ice and Fire, we needed to explore it on a deeper level and the sort of so what. And this thing that's always permeated these texts since A Game of Thrones, since the first book, is George's very staunch anti-war stance. And those books are in many ways an exploration of an anti-war stance done through this kind of escapist, classically escapist genre. Yeah.

And we felt that the right thing to do is to honor that tradition and show that here through, really through all the characters. But Cole has experienced it in such a present man on the ground way who went in very, he went into Rook's Rest with this much different ideal of what the war was going to be like for him. And he was at that point three or four and O. He was sweeping everybody and

and crushing castles as he went, and he had a lot of hubris behind him. And then he experienced from ground level how much it changed. But I think you're seeing on a show level how different everything is turning now that dragon combat is no longer a theory. It's actually happening. Speaking of dragon combat, and I'm sorry to tell Chris McCullough this, but there might be a new dragon rider entering the fray. We see in the Vale that Reyna has finally tracked down this wild dragon. They come face to face together.

At the end of the montage, and we know how much Reyna has desperately wanted a dragon her whole life. She's in fact cast off the responsibility of watching over the young kids that were put in her care. What compels her to do this?

I think it's this sense of, and we'll have to see how this goes for Reyna, as we know from Sir Stephen Darkland. Yeah, it's not a sure thing. Not a given. We'll have to see how that goes for her, the mating dance, so to speak. But yeah, I mean, we've been setting that up since the first season. We've been setting that up since before Phoebe Campbell played the role of Reyna. That Reyna, the character, was an outsider and saw...

Right.

And getting to play that out as an adult with all this long runway behind us was very exciting to us as storytellers to see where it goes. And I just think that's this core thing that's carried by every Targaryen. Certainly in this timeline is part of your identity comes through the very simple fact of whether you have a dragon or not and whether one was born to you or whether you claimed one. And it's all the Targaryen dragon riders that have been written the most

into sort of legend are the ones that went out there and got one themselves. In our Marching Off to War montage, we catch a glimpse of another dragon flying above the Hightower army. This is Tesserion, the Mount of Deren, Alicent's other son. And of course, I think a lot of people have been wondering about him. What can you tell us about Deren and his dragon?

I mean, I've said from the beginning, look, he's an important character in the show. To date, we have not really moved the storytelling POV outside of the worlds of King's Landing and Dragonstone. And certainly we follow people from King's Landing and or Dragonstone out to these other worlds, i.e. Reyna to the Vale. But we haven't just suddenly cut into, okay, here's this character.

all these people that we haven't met. They're thousands of leagues away and here's their story. And Darren has existed from the beginning of time, but look, he was warded off as a very, very young child to this place. And it's not like nobody thinks about him. They just don't talk about him because, well, again, it's not like a modern mother sending their son off. This was an accepted part of society. So it's just like, yeah, he's over there and we know he's over there. Why do we need to talk about him? One thing I found very bittersweet was when Gawain updates Alicent on what Darren is like,

He basically says, unlike the three children you raised, this one's perfect. That stings, yeah. And I think that's a, that is a thing that I think really landed on Allison in a way that Gwaine probably doesn't realize. Yeah.

But yeah, that's tough. And I think it is the question of nature or nurture, right? And it's like, is it the pressure cooker of King's Landing or is it the person responsible for raising them? Well, I imagine too the ward thing is so interesting just because like where your loyalties would lie could be very different, right? We see that coming up in Thrones and I think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out too.

I think that's very interesting. Yes. Not having read the books, I, you know, just saying. Yeah. Yeah, but it's a fascinating template for a new story. Yeah. And now we're ready to tell it. Cool. Because such has happened and you've seen that army, you know, marching, you know, marching on King's Landing. So, or at least in the neighborhood of. So, they're coming into the story. They're coming in hot, guys. Let's go. Yeah.

As big as this story is, it's on a fundamental level also a story about the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent. And I just loved the ending of this episode where we get this shocking surprise visit from Alicent to Rhaenyra. Tell us about that scene and that decision. Yeah, I mean, we had always talked about...

Alicent and Rhaenyra's story this season is having these two key encounters with one another. The first one's instigated by Rhaenyra, and then the second one instigated by Alicent, both for different reasons, but both kind of for the same goal of seeking to end the madness.

That was always the end point of this. This was always the bookend of this season. As all of the powder kegs are starting to go off, it's based around this very quiet, very long scene between two characters on the poster, the two central characters that we founded the show around, and how different they are now.

Now versus in season one, when we met them as young women, and even in episode three of season two, when they came together at the Sept, they are very different people and the world has changed radically between episode three and episode eight. And to see how that's impacted them, their relationship, their outlook on the world, their desire to continue prosecuting this war. Obviously, at this point, Rhaenyra is at the height of her power. She has...

this overwhelming force of dragons. It seems like she's victory is inevitable now. And Alicent is the lowest, the lowers, the son that she strove so hard to put on the throne. Um,

She thinks is dying in the dark and Amon has proved himself a war criminal again and again. And she just sees the whole thing coming undone before her and is coming back to see if there's a path to end it before maybe King's Landing burns down, maybe before her daughter dies and Helena getting caught in the crossfire or her granddaughter in Jehera.

And just looking out for the future generations of not only her family, but I think, you know, Westeros at large. And it's such a beautiful scene and such a beautiful performance. I've talked about it before, obliquely in interviews. This was my favorite day on set. I got really emotional watching that scene. It was shot all day. It was a long day. But I just, we were taken with it from the first rehearsal. And they were so good. And I...

Really, all I did was kind of watch over it because Sarah Hess wrote the scene and Geeta Patel directed it. And then, you know, Olivia Cooke and Emma Darcy performed it. And, you know, I'm very proud to be the captain of the ship, but it's also nice to just be able to stand back with something like that and just enjoy it.

as a spectator. Well, they performed the hell out of it. I mean, I think it's always been pretty electric to see the two of them on screen together, especially given everything that's been going on with each of their characters. But that scene, I mean, oh my God, it's just, it's so captivating. Yeah, yeah, it's magical. And really, it's funny, you know, when you're watching something on set, you see the...

A scene like that is many hours of editing to get it together, 12 hours of shooting, probably 10, 11 hours of shooting to get there. But it played like that in the wide, like a stage play. Both Emma and Olivia showed up ready to play that day. And it was magnetic from the go. How much are the characters here different?

and their fates set. It's so interesting in storytelling like this where you have this element of prophecy and characters telling others that you're playing a role in a story that's been written. And at the same time, there is the present moment and the choices to be made. How do you balance control versus predestination in storytelling like this? Yeah, I mean, I think...

The dramatic irony of the show, of course, is that the main series already exists and has been shot in the film, so we know where it ends. But our characters don't know that. And I think one of the things that we're really interested in exploring in this show is...

What is the nature of prophecy in worlds like this? And you sort of watch this with the eyes of like, okay, this is like Star Wars or Harry Potter. There's a chosen one and it's going to play out. But we know from experience that George's world is much more nuanced than that. And he never takes you down...

the path that you expect to go down. And we are, in a way, very interested in exploring how prophecy is not... We're not interested in seeing a prophecy fulfilled because that's... First of all, we've seen the original series. We know how this all goes. What we're interested in seeing is how characters that think they're in a world where prophecies exist and come true use those or exploit those

to achieve a political end and what the impact that that has on not only the person that believes that they're the center of the prophecy, but also the people around them that believe in that person as the rightful sovereign or as the center of that prophecy. And then for the people who are trying to figure out who is going to be

the next sovereign. And everybody in this world is very superstitious, so they're always looking for signs and portents to say, oh, that's the white heart in episode three of season one. That's the person. It's supposed to be her or supposed to be him. Those are the things that we as writers are interested in exploring, and I think we'll continue to as this very unpleasant war unfolds.

Thank you so much for joining us and congratulations on the season. Thank you guys. Thank you for covering the show and putting such a deep thought into it. Really, really appreciate it. Yes. Thank you. That's all for today's episode, but don't worry. We will be back this Wednesday for a full season debrief, and we are going to have even more podcast episodes in the weeks to come with some very special guests.

If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles. You can find me at NETW3RK on X and Instagram. And you can find me on X and Instagram at Greta M. Johnson. The

The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, J. Ann Barry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead sound engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija.

Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, and Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Erin Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening, and remember, we are all just pieces on the board. All your life, you've sought to command your own fate.

But today you are ready.