Ep. 4: The Red Dragon and the Gold (with Eve Best and director Alan Taylor)
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Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson. And I am Jason Concepcion. Dragon warfare has come to Westeros, and it's not pretty.

Honestly, it is even more brutal than I thought it would be. But we are going to get into it and unpack the entire epic fourth episode of season two titled The Red Dragon and the Gold. It was written by Ryan Condal and directed by Alan Taylor. And later in the show, we'll talk with director Alan Taylor about the drama of this episode and that epic battle of Rook's Rest.

Plus, we get a chance to speak with Eve Best, who plays our favorite, Rhaenys, the queen that never was, but who always will be queen in our hearts. You don't want to miss that. As always, there are some spoilers ahead, like really big spoilers for this really big episode. So definitely make sure you watch episode four and then come back to us. We do not know the queen's doings, but we must trust that she seeks the same as each of us at this table, an end to this conflict.

Okay, Jason, lots to discuss. We're going to get into the nitty gritty, but first, will you give us just like a quick recap of the episode? Yeah. Damon is at Harrenhal where the weird dreams continue. Rhaenyra has been missing from the deliberations yet again with Rhaenys trying to hold it down now in her absence. And then we have the

Alicent is spiraling in King's Landing after her conversation with Rhaenyra, and she's been looking through the history books trying to track down some information about the Song of Ice and Fire, and she's having conversations with Grand Maester Orweil and also Larys Strong. Criston Cole and his army are marching on Rook's Rest, which Aegon is very upset about because he'd prefer they go to Harrenhal. Aegon is being bullied by Aemond. He really wants to go out

on Sunfire and join the fight. And after much drinking and some deep thinking about it, decides, yes, I will do that. When Rhaenyra comes back to Dragonstone, they all agree they need to send a dragon to meet the threat of the Green Army and Criston Cole. And they decide to send Rhaenys, their most experienced dragon rider, and Melys, their largest dragon.

Then we get to the battle of Rook's Rest, the big battle at the end of the episode. King shows up and, quite interestingly, Aemond...

Let's him fly over and get into the action. Let's the king get a couple of licks in. Maelys and Rhaedys absolutely body the king and Sunfyre. And then Vhagar strikes. He lights up not only Rhaedys, but also his very own brother, King Aegon. Did he do this on purpose? Did he flame Aegon on purpose? Maybe, possibly. Either way, Aegon and Sunfyre crash to the ground and...

And Rhaenys and Maelys are able to fly away for the moment. That is. Rhaenys handles the shelf quite well, sends Vhagar and Aemon tumbling to the ground. And now Rhaenys really should leave. But she turns back.

to see how the battle is unfolding, to do her duty. And as she is turning back out to sea, Vhagar ambushes her. And it's RIP for Melys and Rhaenys. Very sadly, the pair go tumbling into the walls of Rook's Rest, and the episode ends with Cole finding Aemond near Aegon's mortally wounded dragon, his sword out, seemingly about to finish off the king, and

And we end there. What is the status of the king? What is the status of the war? Is Cole happy with this plan that he is uncorked with Aemond? Is Aemond happy with what has occurred? We will wait to find out in episode five. What an episode. Oh my God, I'm so stressed out even just hearing you describe it. It's just like, oh, there's a lot to discuss. ♪

Let's open a big flagon of wine and pour it out for the queen that never was.

Rest in power, Rhaenys. She could have been queen. It didn't happen. But... She was the queen in my heart, Jason. I agree. What have we lost? What has the show lost and what have we lost? I mean, well, we've talked about this. I think one of the best relationships that we've seen in this show is between Rhaenys and Corlys. I think there was so much potential, too, for Rhaenys to really be able to be a mentor and guide for Rhaenyra. I feel like we were just getting there and...

And it's amazing that she went out and fought on Rainier's behalf the way she did, but it's also, it's a huge loss for everybody. Yeah, it's a huge loss from the perspective of the ongoing war, right?

You lose a battle-tested dragon, you lose a battle-tested warrior, you lose a voice of reason and authority that's really needed now with the Black leadership kind of fractured, with Rhaenyra just kind of getting her sea legs, and Daemon, you know, Awol. You really needed Rhaenys and a couple of those small council meetings to settle things down.

I think you lose a tie to history. I think Corliss loses a partner, to your point. You think about all the times that Rhaenys has been that counsel for Corliss to get him to— Do the right thing. Do the right thing, for lack of a better term. And you have to wonder—

How is he going to react? Is he going to be as effective as he has been now with Renice's losses? And yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, Renice is a bad bitch and it's always sad to see a bad bitch go, you know?

Were you surprised to lose Rhaenys at this point in the story? That's a really good question. I think I will say yes and no. I mean, this season, like, the tension has been escalating so intensely with every episode, right? So it's like I knew there would be major losses, especially going into a dragon battle. But, I mean, I think she's probably the last person I would want to see die, right?

So I'm definitely super bummed about it, but I do get it from a narrative point of view, I guess I would say. Let's start with this epic battle of Rook's Rest. Your thoughts? Oh my god. I mean, we keep using the word epic, but it feels very apt in this context. I kept finding myself wincing on behalf of the dragons, which was really funny because I know they're not real, but they're so realistically depicted that...

I felt for them so deeply. I also thought, and we've gotten some hints of this initially in this season, where you see dragons flying overhead and the people on the ground are terrified and they scatter. And you see even the chaos of just a dragon landing under normal circumstances. And Game of Thrones has always been really good about depicting the intense chaos of battle. But I think with the dragons included, it was just completely...

chaotic and thrilling and horrific. It was truly, truly horrific. And I think seeing the scale of the dragons, it shows doing such a great job at really conveying the scale. There's that shot of Vhagar finally rousing. And you just see the huge wings over the tree line. And then you see the shocked face of the defenders of Rook's Rest. It's...

It is just amazing to behold. And also makes you feel for the soldiers who, you know... Oh my God. It also makes me think that desertion must be an incredible problem. I was very, very impressed that the levees...

answered Cole's call when he said, hey, your king is here. Line up. We're going in. That's your king on the dragon overhead. He is with you. Let's do it. Let's march on the walls. I was like, wow. Incredible courage displayed by them because...

I don't know how they can find the strength to do it. I would be terrified. I thought Cole did a pretty good job of turning that around, though. Because you can very clearly tell that he's like, oh, shit, this was not part of the plan. I don't know what to do. And so to reframe it as, you know, to be like, this is so important to the king that he's showing up to support you. Let's go. Is a pretty good reframing of it anyway. I agree. I think in general, I think Cole's done a good job, shockingly. I mean, he has kind of

He reframed the role of Hand of the King into a more martial one, which I think suits him quite well. But in that vein, he's doing a great job. He's doing the thing that the king wants, which is wage the war, and he's doing it in a kind of smart way. I was surprised.

begrudgingly impressed with Christian Cole, despite the fact that his plan did not work the way he thought it would. Right. Yeah. I mean, he didn't go up to those soldiers and say like, well, shit, the king's drunk up there, I bet. And I don't know what's about to happen. Good luck to you. Drinking and flying. No. Don't do it. No. I know it's early, quick reaction, but do you have a sense of who won this thing? I mean, I would guess Green's.

Because of the loss of Melis and Rhaenys? Yes, that's such a huge loss. I'm also just personally devastated, I have to say, Rhaenys having been my favorite character. But yeah, I think. I mean, Team Green took some major losses, obviously. There's the Aegon of it all. There are a lot of questions about what happened there. Aemond seemingly trying to kill his own brother, not a good thing. And we don't even know if Aegon is still alive, which cannot be good for Team Green.

But what do you think? Who do you think won? I think of it as maybe a slight black victory, but devastating for both sides. And you I mean, you have to imagine that this will take some of the wind out of the green side sails to have the king win.

injured like this. I suppose Otto could probably frame it as the courage of King Aegon. He was with his troops, you know, and suffered grievously to defend the realm alongside his troops. But I think this is a tough one for both sides. But I think that the Greens have suffered a pointed loss. Yeah, no, that is a very, very good point. So we don't

yet know Aegon's fate. But at the end, when Aemond has his sword unsheathed, it certainly looks to me as if he's thinking about finishing off his brother, the king. What do you think was happening here? It certainly seemed that way. He could argue it was a mercy killing at that point. I mean, if Aegon's, you know, visibly charred and in a lot of pain, like taking him out of that misery is something, I suppose. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess that I don't know that that would fly, but I think it's a pretty good you might try you might try and run with that one. You know, he was in pain. Yeah. I was actually really surprised at how disrespectful Eamon was in the small council meeting ahead of this. And then, you know, I don't think it'll escape Cole's notice, certainly that Eamon didn't show up at the signal, waited for the king to get beat up a little bit before showing up. And then

you know, shot a blast of flame at the king. I think that people will notice that. Oh, yeah. I mean, especially Cole. I kind of feel like he should have known better than to be scheming with Aemond behind Aegon's back anyway. But yes, I'm very curious to see how that dynamic plays out between the three of them because it's pretty messy at this point.

The moment where Aemond in High Valyrian is just pressing his brother is so funny. I weirdly just felt terrible for Aegon.

If I'm him, I go, well, listen, I don't need to be out there, but, like, let me know what's going on so I can, like, learn how to better run this realm. Yes. Well, I think even just symbolically, like, the fact that he can't even speak Hyvalerian for shit. That was so funny. He says, I can have to make a war. Like, that's the most of a sentence he can string together in Hyvalerian, you know? Very, very bad. Meanwhile, Alicent...

really spiraling. You can tell what Rhaenyra told her at their secret summit seems to be working on her mind. Let's play a clip. You've ever been a practical man, an honorable servant to the crown, and you serve my Lord husband in his darkest hours. Such was my duty, your grace. Tell me, do you believe Viserys wanted Aegon to succeed him? I could not know. His grace never raised the matter with me.

I mean, Orwell is never going to answer that question truthfully. No, that's the way you answer that question in that context. I also think it's pretty inappropriate that she even asked it, don't you? I mean... I agree. I got the sense that she knew that he wouldn't tell her, but that he could tell her his hesitance and the way he would answer falsely would tell her what she needed to know. And I think that he sincerely would probably say, no, I don't think that.

But the fact that he said, I don't know, I think told her that actually maybe Rhaenyra is right about what she told me.

It also just seems to me that her expressing that doubt, having these questions, is something she needs to keep extremely close to her. Oh, yeah. I mean, dangerous. Yes. Incredibly dangerous for her. Yes. I mean, the fact that she's even asking these questions is treasonous. Greta, what do you think Alicent is looking for specifically in the history books? I assume it's some sort of...

way to be able to either like confirm or deny the Song of Ice and Fire and whether that prophecy is real, don't you think? I think that that's what it is as well. I mean, I think Rhaenyra, you know, she didn't give her a lot of detail, but she did say the Song of Ice and Fire was something Viserys was very concerned about over the course of his life.

And so I think Alicent is just trying to figure out what that thing is. What is that? What's... Wait, I was married to him for years and I never heard him mention this. So what is that thing? And I think that is what is really nagging at her, that she's never heard of this. Right. But there's something about the way Rhaenyra conveyed it to her that clearly rings true. Speaking of Aegon getting dressed down by members of his family...

Let's play his mom calling him to the carpet. I loved this. I ruled in your father's absence throughout his long illness and Otto Hightower was as cunning a statesman as ever lived. You should humbly be seeking our opinions and counsel. You have no idea the sacrifices that were made to put you on that throne. What would you have me do, mother? Do simply what is needed of you. Nothing.

Nothing. Oh, my God. I loved that so much. I love how fed up she is. Yes. Like the weary, what is it? Yeah. What do you want? Seriously, dude? I will say, I do feel like this conversation is long overdue, no? Yeah, it's long overdue. I think it's long overdue. And I also think you get the frustration of it. Again, it has been an action-packed few weeks. Lots happening. Yeah.

But yeah, this should have happened earlier. And not only that, but you get the feeling that like,

Listen, Aegon is king. That doesn't mean he is just in control, but it's not nothing. And he has a dragon. And I think you have to make him feel involved even if he isn't. Like, you've got to give him a fidget spinner or something. Like, something that makes him feel like he's doing something. Some busy work. You can't just be like, shut up and listen. Like, it's not going to be enough. And it's not enough at this point. But...

You know, I think it's good of Allison to try and communicate to him that, like, the people around you know what they're doing and they've been doing this a long time. Absolutely. Well, I think, too, yes, like, it's ridiculous to assume that you know everything about everything at this point. The best thing you can do is surround yourself by smart people and see what they have to say about stuff. But also, most of the smart people are pretty sick of his bullshit at this point, too.

Very, very true. And to be fair to Egon, he's been doing the thing that I think any sovereign in his position would do, which is he's been appointing people that he feels like he can trust, Chris Cole, although that's been –

less of the situation than he thought it would be, where Christopher really seems like he has a closer relationship with his brother, and that's becoming clear. And he appointed several of his buddies to the Kingsguard. At the same time, I think as that conversation with Eamon showed, where Eamon was like, oh yeah, you've been busy. You've been busy naming your friends to the Kingsguard and giving yourself nicknames, that that hasn't been cutting it at all. And people have

humored him in those things, hoping that that would keep him busy. But clearly, it's not keeping him busy enough. Let's listen to that moment in Small Council that is in English between Aegon and Aemond. No, have him turn about. I want Harrenhal back. Gol is already preparing his attack. How do you know this? He sent word to me. To you? The two of you have been plotting without my authority.

I think what really stood out to me in that scene was how well Tom Glenn Kearney played it, right? I mean, Egon is both unhinged, right? The way he's like, Harrenhal, Harrenhal. But then you hear how hurt and angry he is when he realizes that they've been talking behind his back. I thought that was just so excellently done. And it also shows how kind of not ready Egon is for...

The levers of power, like if you want him to turn around, send a raven right now by your hand. Take a letter. Here, write this down. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Christopher Cole, turn around and attack Harrenhal. Like just send the message. You don't have to go through your brother. I found that part of it interesting too. Like Aegon seemingly has no idea actually how to affect his will through the mechanisms of the kingdom other than –

Well, let me just get on my dragon and fly off. That's, I guess, the best way to do it. You can actually decree things and put it out there so that people understand this is the word of the king. But he doesn't do that. I found myself feeling bad for Aegon. What about you?

Yeah, I mean, partly it's interesting because, I mean, we're both expressing that we have frustrations with the fact that he doesn't really know how to be king. But in truth, no one taught him either because it wasn't assumed that he ever actually would be, right? Which is so complicated. Well, I mean, Otto has been plotting this whole time to make him king since he was a child. Yeah.

you would think that they would have done better. Now, maybe I think you could argue, and I think this is probably what happened is the fact that the people very, very, very close to him were telling you, you're going to be king one day, you'll be king one day. That kind of gassed up his self-confidence and his own, you know, image of himself to the point where the reality of the job is a completely foreign country to him. But yeah, you,

The people who should be helping him are not helping him enough. They're just trying to insulate him from doing anything that might muck up the war effort while they do stuff. This can't go on forever, although now, the current state of the king, I think you could—

I think the king will be bypassed in many decisions going forward. Oh, good lord. After what has happened at Rook's Rest. Oh my gosh. Okay, well, should we switch over to Team Black and talk through some of this? Yeah, let's do it. I mean, it's such a packed episode. It really is. Okay, so let's start with Rhaenys, who has an interesting conversation with Corlys that you sort of hinted at earlier on, too. I just had a word with your captains. He was the sailor who plucked you from your watery grave.

Yes. You did not think to mention it? I did not think it relevant. I know who he is, Corlys. Alan's past is no fault of his. He saved his lord's life. He should be raised up and honored, not hidden beneath the tides. Is this why you came? To subject me to an inquisition? I came to tell you that Baelor has called me to Dragonstone. Baelor? That counselor's going to dine on her and Jace for supper. They grow restless in Rhaenyra's absence. Still, where has that woman gone?

I suspect to try and draw us all back from the abyss. Such a great moment for so many reasons. And number one is we get some confirmation, I think, that Alan is Corliss's natural son, his child from another woman. And I think very...

super magnanimous of, of Rainese to be like, don't hide this kid. Why are you, don't, don't hide him from the world. He did a, he did a great thing. You should honor him. People know who he is. Certainly.

But that doesn't mean that you should push him to the periphery. So I think we're going to be seeing Alan more directly involved in affairs from here on out, certainly. Yes, I thought that was a very interesting and telling moment. I think another really interesting piece of that conversation was the fact that, like, where the hell is Rhaenyra? She was so fast to get to King's Landing. What's the deal with that, Jason? I don't know. It was harder to get out, I guess, than it was to get in. I guess. Yeah.

But this is where you really wish that Rhaenys was the queen's hand or that the queen actually had a hand. Someone that could know what had gone on because you're running the risk with only Rhaenys knowing about this secret mission that like, I mean, the queen could just disappear. She could just be killed by anyone or imprisoned and something and the war would just be over and no one would know what happened. Playing with fire, I think.

Where have you been these last days? You've vanished without so much as a word. I apologize for my absence and my secrecy, but such was necessary. I went to King's Landing. To what possible end? To meet Queen Alicent and sue for peace. You saw Alicent? Yes, I did. You could have been taken or slain! I inherited 80 years of peace from my father. Before I was to end it, I needed to know that there was no other path.

What do you think the reaction to that is going to be? Because really they don't have time for a longer conversation about it. But it is a crazy thing that Rhaenyra did. I think it's a crazy thing that Rhaenyra did it. I think it's also kind of crazy that she told them. I was sort of surprised by that. I figured she would kind of keep that on the down low in case there are future conversations to be had. Yeah, I think it speaks to what a dead end she feels like that was. I mean, she basically says, like...

Okay, I owed it to the legacy of my father and the decades of peace that he fostered to do everything I can to see if I can save that peace, but I can't. And so now I feel like it's going to be...

The team black is going to be flying the dragons. You have to feel like it's going to be very active from here on out. I mean, she has very little political capital left with her council. They're getting their butts whooped. They've lost a dragon now.

They need that army. And I feel like the only thing that they have to kind of influence the war is these dragons. So I would expect the dragons to really start flying now. Absolutely. Another thing I thought was really interesting, kind of reflecting on how...

Alicent and Rhaenyra both are behaving now after this conversation that they had is like Rhaenyra seems so certain. She has so much resolution and Alicent seems so confused and uncertain. That's a great point. Which I just thought was a really fascinating dichotomy between the two. Yeah, it's a great point. So yeah, do you think Rhaenyra made the right call sending dragons? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it was a trap laid for her and her dragons. That said, I think she had she had reached the point where the people who were supporting her were really wavering, had already pitched, hey, why don't you leave? Why don't you leave the war and we'll do it? And I think whether or not you agree that Team Black was doing nothing, air quotes, is

That was the perception, and the perception had become reality. And I think if you allowed the home castle of one of your council members to get knocked off and just sit there, you're going to lose without ever fighting. So I think she had to. What do you think? I agree. I also thought that pre-battle montage that we got where, as you had mentioned, Rhaenyra tells Jace about the prophecy was really interesting because it really does frame the

Rhaenyra's reasoning as not just being about her wanting the throne, but a much bigger story that is happening and that needs to happen. Let's listen to that. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Viserys told me when he named me his heir. What Jaehaerys had told him. And what I will now tell you. What is it? Aegon the Conqueror's dream. He called it the Song of Ice and Fire.

Ooh, chills. Chills. So phenomenal. I continue to be fascinated with the potential ways this prophecy could be influencing events in the background. You wonder as this story unfolds, what will people who have this information on either side do to avert this?

potential disaster. Yeah, it's fascinating. I'm really excited to see, too. Let's finish with some good, confusing, twisted fun and our friend Damon, who's having many a sleepless night at Harrenhal. Things are very tough for my guy Damon at Harrenhal.

Um, he is having terrible dreams. He, again, does not know if he's awake, does not know if he's asleep, has no idea if he's dreaming, is hearing things, is talking to people. Are they there? Are they, what is going on? And through all of this, he meets for actually the

the real first time. He found himself standing in front of the weirwood tree with Alice Rivers. But this is the first time he's had a conversation with her after following an apparition of himself to her kitchen. Let's listen to this clip. Have you experienced anything of note? You are a strange kind of woman. I'm no woman at all. I'm a barn owl, cursed to live in human form. So you've come here after quarreling with your wife. What? Your wife, you're alone.

to claim the castle and yet send no ravens. Do you now plan to make your own claim? Perhaps to prove yourself to-- Do not try me with your insolence, witch. It's a hard thing, I imagine, to give obeisance to one who replaced you as heir. And a woman too, a girl child you bounced on your knee. I mean, does it please you that her legitimacy is contested as you stand here with a castle and a dragon attempting to draw an army of men? Here, drink this.

You'll need your sleep if you're to win this place to your side. So good. So weird. I love her. What do you make of her analysis of Damon? I mean, I think it's pretty close to the bone. At least it appears to be. Is she right? I think so. I think it's especially interesting given the fact that she's never met him before. How she's picking up on all of that is very intriguing indeed. What do you think? I think that

It's almost right. I don't think that Daemon actually wants the throne. Oh, true, yes.

I think he thinks of it as his fault, and I think he's trying to fix it in his way. I'm going to fly off to Harrenhal by myself, I'm going to take it, and I'm going to win the war, and I'm going to fix it. I think that's what he's trying to do. And I think he's doing a very confused and poor job of it. But I think that he did take the castle to his credit and may indeed assemble an army of disgruntled Blackwoods, but...

If he even had those conversations, I don't even know if Steven understands if he was having those conversations.

But I think that's what he's doing. I think it's to all appearances, I would understand that people think, oh, he's angling for the crown. And even the way he styles himself as your grace would suggest that. But I think what the dreams tell us is he actually feels terrible about what he's done to Rhaenyra and her chances. Yes, I think you are absolutely correct. I think he is jealous of Rhaenyra.

I think he is jealous.

his niece, the King's daughter, more than he loved his brother. And I think that really irks Damon and it really hurts him. At the same time, I think he feels that his brother's entire wish was that Rhaenyra would succeed him and that it was him, Damon, who kind of effed that up. And, um, yeah, it's just kind of desperately trying to fix it. Um,

What do you make of Alice? We should talk about Alice. What do you make of Alice? Oh, I think she's delightful. She's such a welcome change in tone and texture to the show, too, I think. And clearly much more than meets the eye because whatever is going on at Harrenhal, whatever energies are coursing through the place...

The Riverlands is very mysterious in general. There's a big lake nearby Harrenhal called the God's Eye that has an island on it that is covered in weirwoods that supposedly the children of the forest still live there. Nobody goes out to that island. The entire region is very mysterious. And Alice feels very plugged into that energy, the way she was like, oh, the previous maester fled here.

Just casually mentions that she fled in the night, couldn't get the hang of the place. But she seems to really have the hang of it. And I'm fascinated to know what that entails. Clearly much more than meets the eye with her. For sure. I also just love the old God vibes. You know, that's something I always really loved about Game of Thrones, too. So it's fun to see that coming back up. Me, too. I can't wait to see what more we get of Alice Rivers. ♪

Well, there is no better person to talk to for this episode than the Eve Best who plays Rainice. And we got to talk to her. Here she is.

We are so excited to welcome Eve Best, who plays Rainice, to the podcast. She is joining us from a beautiful remote village in Europe, which feels very fitting for Rainice. Eve, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. We are devastated to lose Rainice. We've talked at length on this podcast about how she's our favorite character in the story. What was your reaction when you learned about Rainice's fate?

I was pretty devastated too, actually. I mean, I knew that it was coming. You know, we always knew that the end was in sight. And plus, it's, you know, the nature of the job. You know that if you're signing up for part of the Game of Thrones franchise, that the likelihood is that you're going to have a sticky end at some point. When we actually, when we did the read-through of season two,

We were given the scripts a few days before and I didn't read them deliberately because I thought I just want to respond to it in the moment without any kind of prep or judgment, which was a bit scary. So it really hit me when it happened. It was devastating. And I felt like, no, this... I mean, objectively...

you know, they're just losing their best guy, their best chess piece. And plus, just such a magnificent person.

woman, role model. I mean, look, it's, you know, they're amazing shoes to try and fill. And so, yeah, agony to see her go down. Kind of felt a little bit like The Last Samurai, that amazing movie. And it felt a little bit like that when you're just watching this noble, this great noble character and her dragon and the beast going down. It's

Yeah, it was sad. It is sad. I think, you know, it's funny. I hope you don't mind my use of this language, but the phrase I keep thinking of when I think about Rainice is bad bitch. Yeah, absolutely. You know? I mean, she's an enlightened badass. Yeah.

Yes, yes. And that's the thing that I love about her, that in spite of the fact that she's so sort of, you know, rises above everything with such incredible grace and style, she's also just no holes barred.

Cool as fuck. Yes. I couldn't have said it better myself. Speaking of the badassness, she goes out in an incredible display of martial prowess with her dragon, Melys.

Tell us about filming that battle scene. I mean, I felt very ill-equipped to be doing it. It was very physically quite demanding. And then I remember talking to Ewan, actually. Ewan Mitchell, who plays Eamon. Yes, who's all over the stunts. And he's this young guy and he's doing these amazing stunt things. He absolutely loves being on the dragon. And I remember when we

We bumped into each other at the end of season one and he'd just done his first time on the buck. And he was sitting just outside his trailer going, oh, you know, you're about to go on the buck, are you? It's life changing, man. But I felt a little bit nervous. I thought, OK, so I'm...

I'm not quite sure about all of this. And then I remember when we were filming that first sequence in season one, when she, you know, she combusts out of the, through the floor. And Greg, the director, was yelling through a microphone because there's so much noise and there's the sound of the buck and there's all the wind blasting in your face. And it's very hard to hear. It's very hard to see. Very hard to do anything, actually. You're just sort of clinging on for dear life.

And people are yelling things at you like, come on, you've got to swerve more like you're on a motorbike. And I was like, I was clinging on to everything to me. I don't have that frame of reference. I'm really sorry. So I felt very like, yes, physically I was perhaps not in my comfort zone, shall we say. And then so then I knew we had this sort of epic moment.

battle scene to shoot. It was two weeks of just me on this book. I kept asking for more cushions because it was, you know, my bum was getting sore. And it was quite, it was quite intense. But, you know, it's very far removed from what the end result is. It's a very sort of surreal process. I bet. When you say the book, does it

move on its own. Yeah, it's amazing. It's like this kind of amazing electric. It's, you know, like I've never been on a bucking bronco. I'm the opposite of Rainice. I've never been on a roller coaster. I'm terrified. I'm far too scared. I understand. I'm a Ferris wheel person. I get it. I'm just terrified.

But yes, it moves a bit. So I've been told it is similar to a bucking bronco that it moves about. And because of this particular sequence that had to be so kind of epic and complicated with the dragons kind of spinning and all of that, there were a lot of

and, you know, complicated things. They needed to make it look as though we were in this kind of spin, tailspin, when the two dragons lock together and it needs to look like she's hanging upside down. And so they needed to kind of simulate that. So they made the...

I organized a turn that was like a sort of 180-degree turn. I started like that and then spun all the way around. Oh, my gosh. No. And I tell you what, I mean, my God, it was a good workout for the thighs. I bet. I mean, Pilates, eat your heart out. You need some Dramamine for that, too. Emotion sickness. My thighs had gone home. Have you considered, I feel like you would be very good at a bucking bronco now. Yeah.

I feel like, God, I would just take it in my stride. You're ready. And I'm also, I feel like, you know, I'm now stunt-tastic. I feel like, come on. Stunt-tastic. You know, Emma Peel, eat your heart out. I feel like in this episode, there are a number of moments for which to be extra proud of Rainice. But I wonder if there is one in particular that...

where you found yourself thinking, like, yep, that's my girl? I mean, I think it's that moment when she says, when she steps forward and she says, you must send me. She's just looking after everybody in the room. She's looking after Rhaenyra. It's her last piece of wisdom for Rhaenyra. We'd reached the point of no return and, you know, somebody had to plunge in and somebody had to press the red button.

and start the nuclear war effectively. And, you know, so you had Jace, you know, popping his head too far above the power bit and then, you know, Rhaenyra wanting to do the right thing but not really having the experience. And it became like her final piece of wisdom, like her final gift to Rhaenyra, which is, you know, this is how you are a good leader. This is your way forward. This is the best way. This is how you rule. And this is leadership.

And you don't go in yourself. You send in your best soldier who was her, even though she knows that this is a, A, a very likely kamikaze mission, and B, she of all of them knows the weight of that moment, of that decision, of that line that she's about to cross. And to have the balls...

and the grace and the goodness to stand up and do it while making it seem like it was just an effortless, you know, moment of nothing without any kind of, any sort of indulgence. I just, I thought, yeah, blimey, you're cool. Bad bitch, I'm saying. Yeah. We've talked a lot on this pod about how Rainies and Corliss are

have the best relationship in the show from, in our opinion.

Arguably in the franchise. Arguably in the franchise. It's an incredible partnership. They are such active supporters and promoters of each other. And at the same time, we discover in this season that Rhaenys is aware of Courtless's infidelity. What was their relationship like at the end? Oh, gosh. I mean, I think that was just so hard.

because he'd always been her rock and through the whole of season one, in spite of everything that was thrown at her and them, ultimately they were a team and they were supporting each other and he felt like solid, absolutely solid ground. And I think, and actually I live in an earthquake zone, having experienced earthquakes, great and small. It's very shocking to,

It's the most sort of terrifying thing, really, feeling that security of the earth suddenly not secure. And I think that's what she felt so much what she was going through this season was feeling that ground, that solid ground of him.

just, you know, the cracks, you know. And as always, even though her heart is breaking, she's again admonishing him for not acknowledging his child and for not doing the right thing by his child, even though it's a sword in her heart to do so because it's so much pain because this child represents his, as she imagines, love for another woman or at least

connection with another woman not easily done um as as with everything like with you know the choice to side with her nearest that's way not a pleasurable or easy decision at all

that it's the right thing to do. That's her kind of M.O. endlessly is to, you know, put the personal aside and operate from the bigger picture always. It makes me think too about Rhaenys' decision to support Rhaenyra, especially in the wake of that very telling scene early on in season one when Rhaenys and Rhaenyra are talking to each other and Rhaenys says the realm will never accept a woman as ruler. Yeah.

How do you think Rayne Neese then is navigating that decision? I mean, it almost seems like in that instance it is personal because she's saying, sure, I don't know what the realm is going to do, but I know the right thing is to support this person. Yes, I completely, well, I completely agree with you that, you know, she is, look, it's deeply, she's deeply reluctant to.

to side with Rhaenyra on the personal level because first of all there's never been the conversation in which Rhaenyra has said oh by the way your son's still alive and I think that you know that has so that's sitting between them always as the unspoken white elephant between them and I so I think on a personal level she does not trust this person at all and I don't think she likes her very much

However, that being said, in the context of their conversation in season one, which was so significant, first of all, I think she sees a lot of herself and her own story being reenacted in Rhaenyra's journey. And the feeling that is strongest is, not again on my watch shall this story be repeated again.

And that is what is most important above all, putting aside personal differences, resentments, past histories, confusions, mistakes and dislikes. All of that aside, the bigger picture is not again will a woman and clearly the best candidate for the job of ruling be ignored and sidelined and passed over.

And attention must be paid. And respect must be paid. I mean, my God, those scenes in the council. It's like, you've got to pay some respect. And stop ignoring her. Stop patronizing her. Slash me. Slash us. And pay attention. Very cross-making. I can tell. Oh.

Eve, it has been such a delight to talk to you. You are wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing some insights into a great character. Thank you. It's been really nice to meet you both. What an awesome conversation with Eve. Yes. Just the best. I loved hearing about the buck. I know.

I do love the idea of riding a roller coaster with her. Something I'm not really into either, but I would with her. Well, this is a very wild way to mark the halfway point of the season. And now we get to talk more about it with the director of this incredible episode, Alan Taylor, who also directed, as I'm sure many people know, many pivotal episodes of the Game of Thrones television program. Let's go listen to our interview with him.

Thanks so much for being here, Alan. It's my pleasure. It's great to meet you guys. I've been listening to you and now I get to meet you. Oh, that's awesome. So, Alan, obviously, this is a hugely epic episode. It is by far the biggest battle that we have seen so far in these seasons of House of the Dragon.

What was your reaction like when you first saw the script and realized the scope of it? Well, it was such a funny process. I'm not sure you have interest in the entire long story that got me there. Go for it. When we began the season, like you said, I sort of looked at the scripts and, you know, I have a long, happy history of murdering people that are beloved. And as a director, it's partly a...

It's a self-serving thing because you know that when you kill the hero, people will be interested and you'll get some attention. So I got to chop off Ned Stark's head. I got to kill Caesar in Rome. I killed Wild Bill Hickok in Deadwood. I killed Christopher Maltesanti in Sopranos. And each one of those was a real joy. Oh, sorry. I did want to hear the resume for sure. Whoops.

But so when I read this one and realized, and I'm allowed to spoil her about this though, right? Yeah. When I saw that Meles was going to go down and take Reynes with her, that was really moving to me. And that sort of storyline became clearly the most important thing in the battle and in the episode. So that was what really drew me in. So when you look at that script and you see the action and you're drawing on your experience doing these kinds of big episodes before, what is the first thing

Like action item that leaps to mind. I've got to start doing this. Well, again, this was a really interesting one, partly because of where it comes in the season halfway through and partly because we refer to it as a battle and it's the Battle of Brooks Rest. But as I read it, the funny thing was there isn't really a battle. You've got a huge army approaching an undermanned but very small keep.

So you know no one's going to come out of the keep because that would be stupid. And the siege gets interrupted by the arrival of the dragons, where sort of what's happening on the ground becomes less and less relevant to the battle in the air. So in fact, we refer to it as a battle, but it's a battle interruptus. So in a way, one of the challenges became how do you keep the momentum going? How do you keep the dynamism going when in fact there isn't a real sort of clash of hand-to-hand forces on the ground? And I remember looking at the script and realizing that

I think the writers realized that that was sort of an issue or a challenge. So there were some times when they were saying, and they're fighting, you know, continues. And you're like, well, wait a second. No one's actually. And so it became a sort of sleight of hand of setting it up and then having the arrival of the dragons sort of take that energy. And, um, and it was very key for me to have the dragon violence interact with the ground and interact with the troops for a bunch of reasons, partly because that's where the battle is happening. But also I learned that, um,

To make the dragons real and grounded, you have to constantly interact with them so they don't just become things in the sky. So that was sort of the challenge. Yes, it's a battle, but in fact, it sort of turns into something else.

That makes sense. I love how much you have waved your arms. It's perfect. It's not a very useful thing in an audio podcast. It doesn't really help. It makes sense. So you mentioned killing Ned Stark. Obviously, you have a lot of experience in the Game of Thrones world. I would love to hear what you learned from that show that you brought to this and how House of the Dragon is different. I mean, obviously, there's the dragons. Right, right. It's funny. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think I felt comfortable coming in because it felt like a return to Westeros and a kind of established tone and language. So that felt good. The main difference, I think, as I got to know the show was the female point of view of the feminine experience was huge in this show and foregrounded in the show in a way that it wasn't really in the original show, even though that show had very powerful, complex female characters.

Overall, I think people responded to it as a very male vision, sort of male defined. And the show very directly sort of presented itself in opposition to that. The female perspective on violence and the escalation of violence is always foregrounded. So I think there was an adjustment on my part to sort of catching up to that approach to things. And it's, you know, it's not that hard to do because you've got two amazing actors.

playing Alicent and Rhaenyra that sort of characterized that point of view. But it's everywhere. I think we have more women directing on this show than we did in the previous one. And I think it sort of infuses everything. The marquee event, I think everyone would agree, of this episode is the dragon battle, the confrontation between Melys and Sunfyre and Vhagar in turn. Tell us about making that. You know, tell us about creating that scene.

It was a case where, you know, sometimes you are led very, very precisely by the script. And other times you, like, you know, Gone with the Wind, it said Atlanta Burns, and it turned into a 20-minute sequence created by the director. And I don't think I can claim quite that much input here. But there were many times when it says, you know, the dragons fight, and it's really me a pad. And we got to have the fun of...

For a long time, we've been alluding to the Dragon War as a kind of crossing the line into nuclear warfare, right? They've served a long purpose of being peacekeepers in a way, the way nuclear weapons are supposed to do, but now we're crossing a line. So for me, there had to be a big moment in the battle where you sort of felt that, the scale of that. And a lot of different things happened, but if you watch the sequence by far, the sort of biggest impacting event is Vhagar crashing to the ground. So I sort of started focusing on that and we built a lot of things into it.

One is the cleverness of Rhaenys in how to engage this giant beast. Almost no dragon in the realm can encounter Vhagar and survive, but we sort of constructed a thing where she goes back deliberately. First of all, it's a choice. She could flee, but she doesn't. Second of all, she's doing something very smart, which is to engage him upside down. And she's able to use her body weight and Maelys' body weight to basically bring him to the ground. And when he hits the ground...

It's sort of our version of a nuclear blast and it knocks everybody off their horses and it wipes out battle formations. And most importantly, our sort of point of view character Cole gets knocked out and sort of misses what comes next.

So once we realized how important that moment was in the sequence, we had a lot of fun structuring it. I work frequently with my partner, Jane Wu, who is a storyboard artist, and she and I were researching birds of prey and sending videos back and forth to each other. And that's where we started coming across this recurring dynamic, which is really beautiful, where when a bird feels itself being approached by another bird, it turns upside down and engages talon to talon, and it becomes this kind of chaotic spiral of

To be quite honest, we're not sure if it's a battle move or a mating move, but maybe they have a lot in common. But in our case...

We use that as sort of the centerpiece moment where we see how smart she is. She's tactically stronger than Aemond is, so she knows how to do this thing. And she actually wins that round. But she wins the battle, but not the war. So with that structure in mind, then everything else serves that. So we had to make sure that when Aegon crashes to the ground earlier, that it's not as big a deal. So we were sort of building up to this crescendo moment. And then the moment that comes after that,

It's where the emotion really plays when she's... There's a sneak attack where she finishes her off. So it was just her going through and trying to create a story structure for the dragon's fight. So...

As you've mentioned, I mean, of course, these dragons also aren't just on their own, right? They're the humans riding them. And so much of the battle that we see is indicative of these characters and their personalities and how they approach something like a battle. I'd love to hear how you talked these sequences through with the actors who played Aegon and Rhaenys and Aemond.

First of all, you're up in the air with a giant dragon and you want to track the emotions of the person that you're engaged with them and that you're invested in. But also even more challenging for the actors, you're not really on a dragon in the air. You're on some ridiculous blue screen stage with a bucking bronco thing and a computer controlled camera. So it's even harder to maintain the reality and track the emotions. And you're shooting things way out of sequence. Most of the dragon writing was shot towards the end of our shoot.

you know, far, far away from the actual location work we'd done. So it was very important to talk through every beat and the beats are very, you know, fragmented because you're just getting that little piece that you need each time. It was very helpful to have

Yeah, I think Antonia mentioned that when we had her on to talk about it. It's really interesting to think through how helpful that must have been. Yeah, it's mostly generated for VFX people because they have to start getting a handle on what they have to build since their dragon building happens before we even start shooting it.

So they have to create a map for themselves and that becomes this cartoony sort of crude looking computer generated previous thing. But that also ends up being very useful for everybody else. The director and the actors can refer to it to know exactly when this moment happens and what the key emotion for them is.

I know some people seem to enjoy it. Ewan, who plays Eamon, seems to sort of get a kick out of it. He really throws himself into it. I was worried about... Emily, I'd heard, did not have a great time, but she was amazing. I think it's partly she knew that this was a big deal for her character, but also some work had been done to make...

Her armor, you know, less murderously painful to wear. But so she was great and gave it everything. That is Emily Best, also known as Eve Best, who, of course, plays Rhaenys. So the original plan seems to have been, you know, lure in one of Team Black's dragons. I'm sure they were hoping for Rhaenyra.

But Rhaenys would do just as well, ambush it with Vhagar and take it out. And that seemed to be going swimmingly until Sunfire arrives. Right, right, right. And then with Aegon, a drunk Aegon on its back. And...

Amon's calculation changes at that point. What is he thinking as he sees his brother fly over? Yeah, I think the writers did some really great work providing some complex things there. As I recall, and people will yell at me if I'm wrong, but I think in the book, Sunfire and Vhagar were working together from the beginning, I believe. Right, that's correct. But this one has a lot more character reversals involved.

it was fun that Cole and Amon had a plan that nobody else knew. It means that Cole gets to give orders that don't make any sense. And Sir Gawain has to say, are you out of your mind? But because he knows he's got a nuclear weapon parked, you know, just out of view. So it was fun having that dynamic. And then, you know,

When Maelus arrives and it's a disaster for Cole and his troops, but Cole is happy because this is exactly what he was waiting for. And then the tension when Vhagar doesn't arrive. I think we made a big deal out of Vhagar rising, Aemon rising to engage in the battle and then seeing Sunfire and deciding to hold. And there's a few things going on there. One of them is...

anger at his brother for messing with things and getting involved and being an idiot and a certain level of curiosity well what could happen this might this might get Eamon on the throne really fast but he does come in you know he doesn't just sit out the whole thing he does come in and then the next question is you know when he's throwing fire that first time who is he really aiming at and I think there's a little bit of ambiguity about that and that's you know it's those character things that really enrich it I think there's a lot of tension there and

you know, when Tom as Aegon first sees his brother approaching, it's like, hallelujah, yeah, here comes the big guy. And then this slow dawning on this when he realizes this doesn't look good. Yeah. So I'd love to talk more too about Rhaenys' decision to double back, which you mentioned kind of briefly earlier on. I think that says so much about her character and

And, you know, I mean, we've never seen her in battle before, but it tracks. And I'm curious, like how how that piece came to be.

Yeah, I'm glad you're mentioning that because we've seen in Game of Thrones and earlier in this show, dragons engaging and sort of laying down fire and strafing people. And it's awesome and it's cool and we use flamethrowers and it's big and beautiful, but it's been done. And when I read this scene, I realized that probably my favorite moment in the whole episode, the whole sequence, the whole battle was her decision to return and die.

she's just, you know, she's just ably engaged Sunfyre and now she's survived a first encounter with Vhagar and she could certainly leave with her, you know,

pride intact she'd sort of did her bit but the decision to turn we really stretched it you know we spent some time with her as she makes that decision and when emily and i were working on it was you know it's partly it's a it's a pride of battle thing it's also this is her chance to make up for what she's always probably given herself a hard time for that she didn't say dracarys when she had the chance to um and everyone's always sort of you know giving her a hard time about that she's always been sort of defensive about it but i think at some level she um

She knows she has got something that she sort of needs to finish. And then Vhagar is the one that killed her at the end of season one, her grandson. Would that be who that, what the relationship is? Yes. I mean, you know, not quite totally blood related grandson, but we don't say that because it's true. It gets complicated. So I think it was, it was also personal, you know, that she's not going to fly away from a chance to, um,

to lash out at vagar and amand but she knows what she's lying into i think she knows it's basically a suicide mission when she turned when she makes that turn but she does it with um such skill that she survives it and then i think it's what's most touching to me is there's actual hope in her eyes when she flies back over the battlefield and thinks okay i think i may have gotten away with this i think maybe i i pulled it off do you think it's how she would have wanted to die

I don't think she wants to die, but I think certainly this would be a better way to die than many of the options that this world seems to offer its characters. So I think there's a, and I think jumping ahead a little bit in the sequence, there's that moment when she knows it's over that we talked about a lot too when we were shooting it. And it was always the way I visualized it with, you know, her arms opening up and sort of giving herself over to it. And that's,

Because I had a near-death moment at one point in my life and came up against something that felt like acceptance. So she and I talked about that. And the fact that Melis has died just now, just before her, this is how they're going together. So intense. There's one guy whose name I wanted to call out. Since one of the most important things we did in the battle was creating this moment with Rhaenys where she decides to turn back.

I really wanted to amp it up. So we sort of gave her this kind of martial arts moment where she sort of clicks on the next piece of equipment and belts herself in. I love that moment. And it's what sets up, you know, when she does that, we know she's up to something and then she turns upside down and that, you know, we realize how good she is. But that was months of going back and forth. This guy named Jack Cornell who worked in the prom

props department and he had to design that belt and more than that he had designed it so it looked like a dander the whole time and also designed it in a way where it could give a kind of yummy martial arts gesture where you can do a click you know you can have a sort of strong gesture and so he had to do a lot of versions and I'm really grateful that it turned out and seemed to work the way it did. Oh that's awesome. So you mentioned this a little bit but I would love to talk more about like the literal impact of the dragons hitting the earth because this is something like

We've seen some small glimmers of that in episodes leading up to this one where, you know, a dragon will land on the beach and everyone kind of has to scatter. You know that there is like terror involved, but to actually see the way it plays out in this episode, especially from the point of view of Kristen Cole, is so astoundingly terrifying. It's funny. We've seen other dragons, you know, land hard.

I like that landing on the beach. It was, you know, sort of coming into a skidding stop. Right. This was a dragon out of control hitting the ground and, you know,

not quite as adept as a cat to land on his feet. Um, and it's also the biggest dragon in the realm. So it's, you know, it's a much bigger deal when it hits the ground. And then it was serving as a metaphor for us for, you know, the first nuclear explosion. So we really wanted to do it up. So there was a stunt work with, um, guys being on pull wires, being yanked back and, uh,

you know, sort of cannons blasting debris and particles because we wanted this feeling of the, it hits and the earth shakes and there's a blast wave that goes out. And that was the blast wave that takes out everybody around them. And it's in that moment that you realize how irrelevant ground forces are now. And it sort of climaxes with Cole being blown off his horse. But the important thing for me was that he would be knocked out and that our sort of point of view character would sort of miss what came next and then would awaken to a transformed world.

When he rises, and it's partly the devastation caused by that blast and the death of the dragon, it's also the devastation of Cole's worldview, because he's always been a knight in shining armor, or so he believes, and he's believed in the military code. And now he realizes that most of that is irrelevant in what's going to come. If you were to look at either side and say, give them a take back on one particular terrible decision, what do you think? Let's go with the blacks. Let's do the blacks, since I feel like this is a...

or a loss for them. Well, it's funny. I mean, my brain goes to the, not the rulers, but, you know, Damon probably thinks it was not the greatest idea in the world to send two doofuses into the castle to try and... That was rough. And, you know, and Eamon, we know, has had self-doubt about the killing at the end of season one. Yeah. And we saw that flash on his face beautifully in the end of that season. But since then, he's just hardened up and pretends like he doesn't...

But I think those two, you know, those two were the inciting events for everything. And it was because two guys lashed out and couldn't quite control what happened once they'd unleashed. So I hope they both lie awake at night staring at the ceiling. But they put a lot of their energy into denying that, you know, that doubt. So we've talked about how complicated all of these characters are, but I still would love to demand that you pick a side. Yeah.

I mean, we've been asking everyone, but I am curious. I mean, what, yeah, would you call yourself Team Green or Team Black? It's funny. I managed to bat that question away three times, I think, on the red carpet when we were going into the premiere. Welcome to the podcast. And say, you know, what a testament to the great writing that you can't make a decision. In the course of making the season, I just fell head over heels in love with Tom's performance as Agon. All the actors are amazing. But when I'd read

Agon's stuff on the page, I had no idea how heartbreaking and funny it was going to be. And one of the concerns I came in to the show with was, you know, this is great, but we had Tyrion and we had other characters that had zingers and we could make you laugh. And then when I started seeing how Tom was handling his character,

I thought, okay, you know, that's where our, that's where a lot of our humor is coming from. I mean, the scene with the scene with him on the throne, I guess it's an episode one where he's trying to sort of wheedle his way past auto. And, you know, it's just so, um, it's so touching and pathetic. Uh,

So I wind up being on team green just because I want to hang out with him and his horrible personality. That's a super weird and really great answer. Well, Alan, thank you so much for joining us. It was really lovely to talk with you about this episode. You too. I knew it'd be fun because I'd heard you guys before and it was fun. Okay, Jason, before we go, we got to do our weekly check-ins, which means first up...

Who do you think is winning after this week, Team Green or Team Black? I think that, I think Team Black is winning by a hair.

It seems like Team Green is much more in chaos, but they also still have a very large dragon who just keeps dominating. So I would probably say Team Green by a dragon scale or something like that. Let's talk about our fantasy draft, our pre-premier dragon fantasy draft, and how that is playing out. Well, first of all, an update here.

Greta, your team has lost Sunfire, or at least Sunfire seems mortally wounded. I tragically lost Rhaenys and Maelys. Yeah, brutal. Vhagar, Victorious. Yeah. And so that's how things stand right now with the Dragon Fantasy draft.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night right after Episode 5 airs on HBO and Max. And if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles. You can find me at...

and etw3rk on X and Instagram. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. And this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, J.N. Berry, and Barry Finkel.

Our lead engineer is Hannes Braun, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney, with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and my co-host, Jason Concepcion.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team. Thanks for listening. And if this episode has taught us anything, it is don't piss off anybody who has a dragon. You should have burned them when you had the chance. Perhaps you can, Sir Alfred, when you next sight them on your dragon.