Ep. 2: Rhaenyra the Cruel (with Tom Glynn-Carney and Matthew Needham)
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Fuck dignity. I want revenge. My father is dead. He is, and we are the poorer for it. He was right about you. He made me king. Is that what you think? Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson. And I am Jason Concepcion. The war of public perception has begun, Greta.

And Rhaenyra and Team Black, they're going to need to go back to the drawing board. I completely agree with you, but I do think that no one is really thriving in any of these situations. And today we are going to get into all that and more as we break down the second episode of season two titled Rhaenyra the Cruel.

It was written by Sarah Hess and directed by Claire Kilmer. And later in this episode, we'll be joined by the grieving and newly emboldened leader of Team Green, the Sovereign himself, Tom Glyncarney, who plays King Aegon. Fuck dignity! I want revenge!

Plus, we also get to talk to Matthew Needham, who plays the very creepy king of gossip in Westeros, Larys Strong. But first, we are going to unpack this episode. So proceed with caution. Here's your little spoiler warning, oh listener. We are going to be talking about episode two of season two. If you haven't watched it yet, go watch it and then come back. We will not let the queen falter. Before we start unpacking everything that happened, here is a quick recap of the episode.

The Red Keep is in chaos in the wake of Prince Jaehaerys' murder.

Aegon takes out his sorrow on his father's model of Valeria. The Green small council meeting is tense. The recriminations are flying. Otto comes up with an idea. Blame the murder directly on Rhaenyra and use it to bloody her image. The houses that perhaps might ally with her will hesitate and even fall away at the sight of such villainy. He proposes an open casket funeral procession with Queen Helaena and Alicent riding right behind the coffin.

On Dragonstone, Rhaenyra is like, what? What happened? They blame Kul for it? They blame me? But she quickly figures out that Daemon ordered it. They have it out. She asks Daemon, do you accept me as queen? And Daemon says that Viserys only named Rhaenyra his heir to hurt him, Daemon. And next thing you know, Daemon is out of there, off to somewhere on Caraxes.

Rhaenyra meets with Mysaria, who admits that she worked with the Hightowers, but that was just all business. And anyway, she regrets it. Okay, back in King's Landing, we see Aric Cargyle of the Kingsguard again. Here's how I remember, by the way, Aric, A for Alicent. Aric. Aric. Aric. A for Alicent is amazing. But you need him to, like, wear a big A on his armor so that you can tell visually as well. Yeah.

Cole rips Sir Eric, a new one for various offenses, including not stopping the attack on Prince to Harris. Cole says that here's a way you can redeem yourself. Go alone to Dragonstone, pretending to be your brother, Sir Eric.

and kill Rhaenyra. Meanwhile, King Aegon has all the rat catchers employed by the Red Keep executed, and that includes the guilty party, Cheese. Otto is furious at this, and then Otto learns of the Eric-Eric parent trap assassination plan, and he flies off the handle. At the end of the argument, the king fires Otto and makes the shocked Kristen Cole his hand. In the episode's final minutes, we see the parent trap plan play out in...

horrible fashion. Eric and Eric duel. Eric wins, but then Eric, overcome by sorrow, kills himself.

But don't worry, the episode ends with Allison and Cole having a more substantial brunch than we have seen them have to date. An angrier brunch than we've seen so far, too, wouldn't you say? I would say so, and I'm eager, in fact, to talk about not just this brunch, but other brunches that we see in this episode. And I think there's a difference in the way that House of the Dragon is treating brunch this season. You really get a sense of...

sex as something that reveals something existential about these characters in their relation to it. It gives you a window into what they need, you know? Like Cole hates himself on some level. Clearly. Right? And likes to be, on some level, likes to lose control and be

Alison wants to feel like she's in control, is looking for that feeling of power. Amon wants to be nurtured, wants to be held and wants to be in a safe place to say, I feel bad. I feel bad that that happened. And I thought those were really powerful.

deep scenes beyond just the kind of drama of it all. I thought those were really well done and revealing character moments. We had another one too between Rhaenys and Corlys, which I think was less maybe telling. I think it sort of affirmed what we already knew, which is that they are a partnership that is always kind of lovely to see. I thought Corlys' line too about like, man, bummer that Daemon doesn't like to get told what to do. Like he's really missing out. It was pretty great too. Yeah.

Greta, I think against my, a lot of things happened against my instincts, against my natural inclinations while watching this episode. And one of them is a distinct empathy for King Aegon. Yes, same. I was also surprised by that one, given what we know about Aegon's history of sexual assault from season one. But I completely agree with you. Tom Glen Kearney, who plays Aegon, is doing a phenomenal job. He's wonderful.

And I think we definitely called it in terms of, you know, fuck dignity. He is pissed. And there is no more like decorum happening with this situation. No, I think this is the first time that I got a whiff of regret from Otto Hightower. Not particularly his role in anything, but maybe just...

The way things are going, the destructiveness and unpredictableness of this affair already, I think, has come to surprise him. The real tragedy of the death of Prince Jaehaerys, it's...

Those opening scenes where the castle is in chaos. Yes. People running to and fro. People are being rounded up, surely to be questioned by Laris. The weeping. The shock. The bloody blanket. It was really, really bracing. And really, really terrible. And I think, you know, we said in the previous episode...

that we hoped that Rhaenyra would be horrified, and she clearly was. She did seem just completely appalled. Another thing we talked about in the last episode, which I feel even more strongly about this time around, is that these castles need to get their security in check. Yeah, I mean, it's terrible. But yes, we of course have to talk about the scene between Rhaenyra and Daemon because it was very tense. I cannot trust you, Daemon. I've never trusted you wholly.

Much that I wished to, willed myself to. But now I have seen that your heart belongs only to you. And when I was a child, I took this as a challenge. But I'm older now. I have challenges enough. I have served you faithfully. Have you? Or have you used me as a tool with which to grasp at your stolen inheritance? So much throwing in this episode. It's a lot of throwing of things.

This is a harrowing scene. It is. And I find myself wondering, does Damon even know what he wants at this point? When Viserys was alive, I think he had a North Star. He just wanted to be close to his brother. He wanted to be respected by him. He wanted to be the...

be standing next to Viserys with Viserys' arm around him. Now it's like I don't know that Daemon knows what he's doing, what he wants, other than to take revenge on Otto Hightower and his enemies. But I'm not even sure that is a real direction. Do you think he knows what he wants? It's a really good question. I mean, I think for Daemon, probably the sweet spot right now is that he can call vengeance loyalty, right?

Right. You know? And so, like, yes, he has this desire to get revenge, but it's really just because he wants chaos. But he can be like, look, but babe, I did this for you, you know? Yeah, he took his passion, he made it his job. Yeah, it's the dream, really, right? Yeah.

But yes, Rhaenyra seemed genuinely, it is very clear that she had no idea what was going to happen. And that moment when she like looks over at Daemon and then like what passes on her face is so perfect. It's like you know exactly what is happening. And she's like, that motherfucker. It is amazing. I like watched that several times just in a row because the look is, it's so weighty.

She's, you know, Rhaenyra is going, how could they think after what happened to Luke that I would target a child? We have to send messages out to the realm. We have to tell people that I was not behind this. How could we, we will find the killers. How could this have happened? Oh my God. And then she looks at Damon and he looks at her with this kind of like, well,

Who, me? And I don't know. I agree with you that these castles need to get their security in order. But more to the point, you know, I said before the season, in the preview episodes, I said at the end of last season, I'm team black. I believe Rhaenyra is in the right. At the same time, it's difficult to ignore the slapdash nature of her government style at the moment. Mm-hmm.

She's heartbroken, obviously, at the loss of Luke, but she disappears for crucial days. And in that vacancy, Daemon is just left to drive the ship of state to disastrous ends. They don't have a plan to message what Rhaenyra plans to do or what her response is going to be.

And then when confronted with the truth by Damon, I was hoping for something stronger. I understand it would be very hard to weaken herself right now, but couldn't you just dump all the blame on him or something? Like, I don't know what the answer would be, but...

But it feels like I wanted something stronger for her in that moment, and we didn't get it. It does feel like she's just constantly playing catch-up, which is not the way to win anything. Yeah. As this conversation continues...

I just find myself thinking, Damon, you're delusional. Like, you're delusional. Yeah. And it's sad that it took Rhaenyra this long to figure you out. It also, like, he should be a helpful soldier. You know what I mean? Or at least if he were, everything would be way different. Let's play that clip where they continue into a discussion about Viserys. Do you believe he made you heir because of your great wisdom, because of your virtue? No.

How dare you? Or did he merely use you as a tool to put me in my place because he was afraid of me? Because he knew your legacy, unlike mine, would never outshine his own. He was not afraid of you, Damon. He could not trust you any more than I can trust you. He was a fool who sought greatness but shrank from spilling blood to achieve it, and I see you will suffer the same fate. You struck down a child. It was a mistake.

This is like, do you ever have a moment where you're around someone who seems very put together and then they open their mouth a little bit and you're like, actually, you look the part, but you're a mess. That's Damon here. It's like, bro, you're...

You're delusional. You're nuts. This is really what you think? Rhaenyra's right. You're pathetic. What I think is really interesting about that scene, though, and the note that I took when I was watching this is that both have valid points. I mean, the thing Daemon says about Viserys not being willing to spill blood and fearing that Rhaenyra will do the same is valid.

I think yes. I think you're right about that. I would take a slightly different angle on it in that, you know, Rhaenyra is at war right now. And I think it's a credit to leaders to try and solve their problems in the least bloody way possible. Yes. Also, if there's like any doubt at all, I just want to be very clear that I do not recommend killing children as the solve for any of this.

Quite telling that it was a mistake seemed like it was pulled out of Damon by a hundred horses. Yeah.

Yeah, no. And he is pathetic. He really is. Where do you think he's off to? Well, it sounds like he's going to Harrenhal, but it is Rhaenys who says to Corlys, basically, like, let's trust that's what he's actually doing. Yeah. I imagine if he could, like, align the Riverlands and, like, really secure that for Team Black, if he could show up saying, like, look what I managed to pull off for us...

I could see that being a very useful off-ramp. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that's one of like... Damon is such a wild card. And it's like wondering actually how loyal he is is a pretty difficult question to answer. I think I definitely can't picture him aligning with Team Green, but...

Whether he's just all chaos at this point or going to try to, like, make some form of amends is a really interesting question. What do you think? It's hard to understand where he could go and what kind of real impact he could make alone. He does have a dragon, and that will be important. But taking Harrenhal by himself seems like a pretty steep hill to climb. This is where I wonder if it wouldn't be better if Rhaenyra took...

Damon's criticism to heart and said, okay, maybe I will spill blood. Maybe I'll be a little ruthless. How about I throw you in the dungeon? Ooh! You know, I just think that this is, isn't this right now the mistake that Viserys made? He issued all these warnings. I'll tear your tongue out. I'll do such and such if this happens or if this happens. And the red lines kept being crossed. And here is a chance for Rhaenyra

to put the blame on somebody else and take out a cancer in her own organization. And maybe she should do something here. He has no particular followers. He's heated all around the country. It's not like you're going to lose other than, you know, Bela, I think might feel

away about it sure but it's not like you're gonna lose it's not like an army is gonna walk away right why not think about throwing him in the dungeon or something yeah I think that's a very good point that would have been such a great defense against what happened too right like no I had nothing to do with this and look I even like he's in here's the person yeah exactly I will say also like Bela definitely already has some dad stuff you know oh yeah

Get in line, we all do. Everybody in this world has got it. I loved that scene with those two, though, I will say. I loved that too. It was sweet. And Sir Harwin Strong? He was gentle and fierce. They called him Breakbones. He loved us, I think. Of course he did. I miss Luke.

I found the way they spoke of their fathers and then came to the subject of Harwin Strong. Yeah. And clearly seemed to speak of him as if in this private setting. Yes, we all agree. Yeah. He was Jace's father. Yeah. You know, they could speak the truth in this place. Yeah. And that was really sweet. That would, to your point, really sweet. Yeah. I think, too, just seeing...

Those characters who were such young kids in season one really have their own agency and, you know, they're getting tasks and they're showing up and doing their jobs, I think is just really interesting. What a nice pair. Yeah. And it's that rare pairing up there with Renise and Corliss that seemed to get along, which is nice. Yeah. It is sad that they're, as they're having this very warm time,

And vulnerable conversation. They are both in training to be child soldiers with balers shooting a crossbow at targets. Okay, fair point. About to be sent on a scouting mission to make sure none of the dragons are sallying forth from the Red Keep. You have a very valid point, Jason, and I appreciate it.

But yes, a very sweet scene between the two of them. Meanwhile, in the Green Council, I think things are similarly chaotic. Let's play that clip. And where were you? The Lord Commander of my Kingsguard? I was a bed, Your Grace, having ordered the Night's Watch. A bed? A bed! Instead of safeguarding the sanctity of my family. This is not the time for blind accusations, Your Grace. We'll know who did this soon enough. Who did this? Who did?

Is there any question who did this? Who would do this save the bitch queen of bastards, the smug cunt of Dragonstone? There she sits across the bay on her rock laughing at me. She's fucking laughing at me! Such a great moment. Incredible. I do also, like, I would love to know who actually wrote that phrase, smug cunt of Dragonstone, because I think it's exquisite.

The consonants is just perfect. And, you know, Cole was in bed ensuring the safety of some of the family. I love the, a bed, it's so perfect. Yeah, because wait, come on. You can't.

be asleep during this the worst security breach in the history of the realm you can't you can't be like I was sleeping not good enough especially I was sleeping with your mom yeah

Not good enough, but, you know, watching the Green Council's, the responses to this emergency, I was left with a very begrudging respect for Otto Hightower's skill. You mean in terms of forcing Alicent and Helena to ride behind the dead child? The whole plan. A funeral progress. Let them see the child. Let them look upon the works of this pretender to the throne.

My king? No. I will not have my little son's body dragged through the street like a dead dog. Not dragged. Honored! Escorted to the Dragonpit to be burned as a Targaryen prince.

Yeah, it's ruthless. And I think also, as we saw, highly effective. Yeah. Bringing a focus to the thing. Yeah. He's the only one seemingly at the moment that has a plan that isn't, well, why don't we just burn all their stuff? I hear you. I think it's really interesting. I mean, it's something we've talked about throughout season one as well, but I thought this episode especially really clarified that.

between the people who are still concerned for the realm and the people who want vengeance. Yeah. I think what you're seeing is the people who are concerned for the realm, the reins are slipping through their hands at the moment. They thought they would be more in control. Yes. And

And they are increasingly not in control of this thing. The dogs of war are loose. You know, well, I should ask you this. Like, do you blame Rhaenyra at all? I think as the leader of Team Black, Daemon did this behind her back. We all understand that. He gave very vague messaging about what should happen if Aemond is not found. And in that vagueness, something terrible happened, right?

At the same time, Rhaenyra, as the head of state, like, this is your fault. I do. Whether or not you ordered it, you didn't want it, but this is your fault. Yeah, I mean, the minute you walk in and say you want vengeance, you want someone dead. And if Daemon's on your team, you know, she should have known better, for sure. Yeah, and it's like, you look at Team Green, and there is, there's Otto, there's a Master of Coin, there's...

There is a maester there. There's people who will push back to a certain extent, obviously within limits, who will say, is that a good idea right now? What about this? Whereas on Team Black, and again, this is the team that I would love to win. I believe Rhaenyra deserves to be on the throne. At the same time, it feels so ad hoc that...

looking at these two meetings together, the Green Council and the Black Council, it's, again, hard not to come away pretty impressed with what they have in King's Landing and with Otto at the helm. Right, which is interesting also thinking about, like, even just in the clips we've listened to in this episode, it's also like, how many glasses has Aegon broken? Like, he's still, he's throwing fits, you know, but we're still like, you know, they really have something going on over there. So,

So, I'm really curious to talk to you about the actual depiction of the funeral procession. Partly because, I mean, in that clip we just listened to, Otto talks about, you know, they're bringing him to the dragon pit to be memorialized as a Targaryen should. We don't see that part. What we see is really, I mean, we see the child, but what we really see is...

Helena and Alicent and what it must be like for them to go through it, which was so haunting and grim. It was grim. And I found myself squirming at Helena's discomfort of it all. She is someone who is a complete...

passenger in all of this. No one is listening to her. There's that terrible, heartbreaking moment where it's only been hours since Prince J. Harris' murder, and she sees her husband for what I assume is the first time since that happened. They pass on the stairs and he says nothing to her.

And that's what her existence has been like. She doesn't want to ride on the funeral beer. Too bad. You have to do it. She clearly wants to fly out of her skin and all these hands reaching up to her and all these people calling her name. It makes her incredibly uncomfortable. She doesn't want to be there. She has to be there. And I just feel for her. It's awful. It's terrible for her. It is. I thought that scene before when Allison has to kind of talk her into it was also just...

also devastating and very telling where, you know, it really shows you how much Alicent has put herself through because of the idea of duty and how awful it is that she has to carry that on into a new generation also is just like, ugh. There's to be a funeral for Jaehaerys. We've been asked to ride on a wagon behind his body. I don't want to. Neither do I. But when a thing like this happens, a blow to the king is a blow to the realm.

When the people share our grief, they draw closer to us. I don't want them closer. I don't know them. Sometimes we have to pretend. Why? We are representatives of the throne. We have a duty. Duty. There was a lot of talk of duty in this episode. Yeah. There's also something so exploitative and deeply hierarchical and misogynistic, too, about the way that it's like, let's exploit the grief of these women, of these mothers. Yes. Yes.

And then I thought the show did something very smart, which is end on the very private grief of Aegon. His mother finds him weeping alone because there's no place for that in this world. Nobody wants to see that. He's already perceived as weak. You can't have people seeing him cry. Right.

She turns her back on him, too, which is also devastating. It really felt like a moment that showed how much Allison has failed Aegon as a mother. Yeah. And it's just so tragic and sad. It's all really tragic and sad. From there, it's very interesting to see how everybody's reacting to this, you know. Aemond is burying himself in a brothel. It was really interesting to see

his relationship to this place, because it seems like, first of all, the same brothel that we saw in season one, the same brothel keeper. And it's like a place of comfort for him, strangely. Yeah, I mean, seeing the way he curls up in the fetal position in her lap was just like, oh, this poor child, you know? Yeah, who was always the second child.

You know, it was like, it was always about Aegon anyway. It's his seizing of Vhagar that put him on the map, not anything that has to do with him as a person. And here in this moment, in the arms of this woman, Madame Sylvie, he finds the comfort of a mother that he clearly did not get from his own mother. Yeah, let's listen to that too. I do regret that business with Luke. I lost my temper that day. I am sorry for it. I am glad to hear it.

They used to tease me, you know, because I was different. I would remind you only that when princes lose their temper, it is often others who suffer, small folk like me. I was struck by how this episode tells us a lot about how the affairs of state, this ongoing war, intersects with the small folk. We get that scene with Hugh the Hammer and the economic worries that he's going and prices of food are going up.

King has promised him money. When's it going to come? And Madame Sylvie here saying, you know, princes can argue, but when they argue, guess who's going to get hurt? And I thought that was really important and really powerful. Yeah, it's interesting thinking about how the world has expanded in terms of the different locations that we're talking about from season one. But it's also very much expanded in terms of the different kinds of characters we're seeing, which I think is really interesting. I think...

you know, with Thrones, you never really know. Like, I think blood and cheese are another example. God, I hate saying that phrase so much. But, you know, in terms of like, often there are characters that you'll meet who will die in the next episode. And that's like not an uncommon arc to see in a show like this. But it's really interesting to get to know this guy, Hugh, and see how he's impacted. And I'm super curious to see like how his storyline continues. Same. And I thought that

whether it's Adam and Alan of Hull on Driftmark, or even Misaria telling Rhaenyra how she became who she was, or Madame Sylvie.

There is a path to upward mobility that is available if you get close to these powerful people. And it's interesting to see their different relations to it. You know, like Adam is like, Alan, man, Lord Corliss likes you. You got to get in there. You got to get in there, buddy. Yeah.

That's going to be great for us. Hugh the Hammer is like, well, the king promised, and who knows, and hopefully that will come through. And then you have Missaria, who's like, I sold what I could, which was myself. Yeah.

And through that business with rich and powerful people, I was able to become rich and powerful myself. And so there's really, you're struck by like, there's only one way out of the mud of existence here. And it's by aligning yourself somehow, some way with these powerful people. It's like the only road there is.

And it's such a different way of living than you are used to experiencing. Yeah. Yeah, totally. By the end of the episode, Aegon has taken the reins. He has the rat catchers, all the rat catchers killed. And then he's also very happy about Kristen Cole's parent trap plan, which aims to make Sir Eric, pretending to be his identical twin, Sir Eric...

sneak into Dragonstone to kill Rhaenyra. And when Otto hears of this, you know, in the middle of having the argument about the rat catchers, he realizes actually the water is much deeper than you think. He blows up and next thing you know, he's getting fired. Let's play that clip. Remove your badge, Sir Otto. You are my father's hand, not mine. Take it off. You wouldn't dare. I have dared and I find it stimulating.

I love the moment where he says, now give it to him, meaning Kristen Cole. And you see like a bucket of ice water just splashed in Kristen Cole's face. He's like, wait, what? So yeah, you think he was surprised by that? I think clearly he was surprised by that. And I think that surprise was maybe the most winning thing that I saw from Kristen Cole in this episode because it was that moment where he, at least my read on it,

that he is not up to this job. Yeah, he's not going to be good at that. Yeah. You know, what is the saying in the realm? The king shits and the hand wipes. I think that with Aegon, it's going to be the hand smashes. You know, Kristen Cole is not a strategic thinker. The king shits and the hand sets the shit on fire. Yeah.

is what we're about to see. Yeah, what did you think of this? Do you think, what is your assessment of Kristen Cole's ability to be the lead advisor to the king? No. I mean, I think so much of, I mean, Kristen Cole is like a mess in so many ways, but I mean, obviously he just has hated Rhaenyra for so long that any excuse he has...

to be terrible to her, he's going to leap on it. And I think in this instance, it just happened to also align with what Aegon was looking for, so it worked out conveniently that way. But no, I think he would be... I think Larys would have been a much better choice for Hand, because I think you do need someone in that role who can...

strategically and who is behind the scenes and, you know, maybe a little devious, but like that's probably necessary in that role too. But I think that's the other thing about Kristen Cole. I mean, that plan was terrible. I don't think he's that...

clever of a thinker at all. Let's talk about the parent trap plan. I'm so glad you're calling it that. Yeah. It almost worked. Let's give him that. It was like a full court shot. It should not have worked. It should not at all. It absolutely should not have worked. And it's also a plan much like the awful blood and cheese plan that could have waited.

Like good kernel of an idea there. Why don't we. Let's workshop it. Work on it. It's not like Eric and Eric are going to start looking less like each other. Like we can do this. Yeah. At a later date with a little better planning. Yeah. Jason, the way you called it a parent trap thing, like it feels to me like it would be in a Shakespeare comedy and like it's going to go wrong. You know, like it's just hard for me to think of like, oh,

yeah, you just like pretend to be your twin and go kill a queen and then sneak back out somehow. And it's all totally cool. Yeah. They have no idea whether Rhaenyra has created a password system, whether there is something, armbands. Does the armor look different now? Also that. I would love it if they just had different cloaks. Yeah. Another failure of internal security at a very, very sensitive castle. Yeah.

It was just like more explosive tension, very similar to episode one that way. Considering how kinslaying is viewed in the realm, this is the ultimate kinslaying almost. As they are saying, in the midst of this fight, they came from the same tissue, the same womb. And that just gives it such a tragic bend. Believe me, I had no choice. I don't understand it.

Brother! Do not do this. You are the one who betrayed us, Eric. I was struck by the sound of the swords. I don't know that they've ever sounded so deadly and menacing, like whizzing through the air with a whistle and then the way they would...

When they would strike, it was like a clang. You felt the heft of those things. Well, and they're just right there. You know, the fact that it's in her bedroom, it's not a place where this is supposed to happen. There are a lot of places that are set up to be places.

Places where swords exist, but this is not supposed to be one of them, you know? But also just the chaos of it, I thought was really well done in that scene. And the fact that you didn't know who was who, it just really added to that sense of like, oh, this just is not good. I agree. In the books, this duel is almost framed as this legendary duel.

A brother against brother and two equally matched skilled warriors in this conflict that tore families apart.

And here it's just a mess. Yes. You know, it's two brothers stumbling around with their hands at each other's necks, falling into stuff, you know, people screaming, things getting broken. And the messiness and roughness of that, I think, was really revealing. Nothing romantic, nothing honorable, just like a terrible event. Because, yeah, so often violence like that is revered. It becomes legend and lore. But...

In reality, it's really horrible for everyone involved. Yeah. And I wonder the question now I'm left with at the end of this episode is what does Rhaenyra do? How does she react? Her government is in tatters. Yeah. Her main advisor has been exiled or has left.

Her private chambers were breached. And a member of the Queen's Guard is dead. This is a mess. So what will Rhaenyra do? She must realize now that she's got to tighten up as a leader. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so far, that's two episodes in a row that end with some really tragic murder and death. I think we might go on a little run here of that, by the way. Yeah.

Yeah, it definitely seems like we're noticing a trend for sure. It doesn't seem like it's going to get better anytime soon. But fortunately, now we get to dive into the mindset of one of the people behind such chaos, the talented Tom Glenn Carney, who plays King Agon. Let's take a listen. Well, Tom, we are so thrilled to have you on the podcast. Thank you very much for being here. Thanks for having me.

Tom, Aegon has gone through a huge change at the start of season two. Last season, he didn't necessarily want to be king, but now it seems like he's starting to get some traction in the role. How do you think Aegon is feeling about being king at the beginning of season two? I think he's wearing this sort of newfound optimism in his life. This is the first time we've ever seen Aegon with purpose of any sort.

It's a reason for him to get out of bed. It's a reason to give him some form of routine. It also sort of qualifies his worth as a human being. He's always been sidelined and now he's very much not. So yeah, he's walking with a bit more of a spring in his step. He's sort of two inches taller than he was. It kind of reminds me of like, you know, being a kid and never being able to get the remote control of the PlayStation. And then suddenly you've got the remote control in your hand and you get to press the buttons and you get power hungry. So yeah, it's a little bit like that.

It's funny because, I mean, especially at the beginning of that first episode, he was magnanimous. Like, he seemed like he was actually going to try to do his best for the realm.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so the thing that I'm kind of battling with with Egon throughout season two is that he wants to be loved and feared at the same time. And those things don't go in tandem. You can't have one and the other at the same time. So it's sort of treading that line and doing that dance to try and make some form of hybrid of the two, which I don't know if that exists.

So yeah, we see him have that battle and whether his sort of openness to help the small folk is out of the goodness of his heart or wanting to make a good first impression to be liked by people, which would decrease the selflessness in that act. I don't know. I'm not sure about that yet.

What was Aegon's relationship with Jaehaerys like? I thought it was important to find as many layers to Aegon as possible. It's quite easy to sort of fall into the trap of playing a one-tone villain. And I always have believed that Aegon is not that.

He's a sort of a product of his upbringing really in many ways. I found that the introduction of Jaehaerys into his life was almost kind of like a new start. First of all, it was something that he'd created, he'd made with his sister. The way I tried to look at that as a sort of a concept rather than a human being is that he was a blank canvas and he could build the man that Aegon always wanted to be but never really had the chance to be.

He loved him dearly, which I think people might be surprised by, seeing that Aegon is capable of love. But I think of him on the other side of the spectrum to a lot of people. I think that he feels deeply. Anything he does feel, he feels on a cellular, atomic level, in his bones, you know? Which is what makes him as explosive and as volatile as he is, because he doesn't know where to put all that emotion and all that energy building up.

As opposed to him being cold and numb, you know? That does make sense to me. I mean, it's so interesting to think of Aegon as, you know, as you put it, like he's such a product of just a terrible environment. I think so much about this show does end up being about generational trauma and how oppressive the system is for everyone, even when you do end up being king, you know? Yeah, I agree.

So can you tell us a little bit about how you read Aegon's relationship with Helena? Because that's another one. We haven't seen a whole lot of it yet, but it seems very intense so far. I mean, we really just got that one moment in episode one, and then they kind of cross paths on the stairs in episode two, which, of course, is after Jaehaerys' death. Obviously, with their history of growing up together, they're aware of who the other one is. I feel like they're both...

living parallel lives but in separate universes. They can't access each other in the way that each one needs. I think Aegon is at the point where he knows that his sister is a little bit different.

and that there's not really much point in... He doesn't have the emotional intelligence, I don't think, to be able to give Helena what she needs and make her feel safe and loved. I don't think they have that. And I also don't think he has any interest in that either. But what he does have now, I believe, is a newfound respect for her for providing him with these two beautiful children.

Aegon really seems to have a kinship with Criston Cole. What is their relationship based on? Well, I think Criston Cole has always been a positive male figure for Aegon. He's been consistent. He's been supportive. He's been encouraging. It's a complicated one because he's not squeaky clean himself, but I think maybe he sees that. Maybe Aegon sees that element to Criston Cole.

Also, Kristen Cole paid attention to him. Viserys never did. So he's like a big brother, sort of. That's the way I've looked at it, at least. How do you think Aegon would react if he found out about Kristen Cole and Alicent? Well, he's a very impulsive character. He's ready to blow at any moment. So I think his initial reaction would be explosive and kind of erratic and uncontrollable. Yeah, that's fair. Aegon's decision to name Kristen Cole his hand...

Everybody seems to disagree with this around Egon, but he's very strident about it. What was behind that decision? Again, he's impulsive. I don't think he thinks things through a lot of the time. But in that situation, Otto Hightower had been keeping Egon on a very tight leash and pushing him to his limits.

And I just think Otto's lack of tact in that situation really sort of signed his own death warrant in terms of being stripped his hand. Also, this whole culture of sending ravens and waiting by the now time. And he was sick of waiting. He wanted to get started, especially after they had struck with the death of Jaehaerys. So, yeah, and Kristen Cole had made that first step and sort of...

pop the cherry if you like in terms of the whole attack towards Rene and the backside. So yeah, I was like, well, you know, thumbs up to that. Let's go. Give him that badge.

I want to go back to Helena for a second because I do think it's a really interesting relationship. I mean, in so many arranged marriages in that time, you wouldn't even know anything about the person you end up with. But here they are. They do both know who each other is, which in some ways is such a gift. But do you think that Aegon will ever pick up on Helena's like magic prophecy vibes? When we talked to Olivia, her thought was if anybody picks up on it, it's going to be Alicent. But I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.

What, as in sort of pays attention to it and takes heat? Yeah, as opposed to like, well, she's just weird. I don't know. I think maybe if patterns keep continuing and, you know, premonitions. I don't think things happen like the beast beneath the boards moment. Yeah.

You could give Aegon 10 years and you could then say, well, she said that a week before. And then they go, oh my God, yeah. I don't know if he could work it out for himself, but yeah, I think we'd all be in a better place, wouldn't we? She's an asset to the team in more ways than anyone fully appreciates. So yeah, it'd be wise to cop on, I think. There's that extremely heartbreaking and sad scene at the end of the episode where Alicent walks in on Aegon distraught, just shocked.

And it's an episode in which the sadness of the Queens had been used as like public facing public relations. But Aegon can't express that unless no one is around. Talk to us about that scene. I think that's a moment where we see Aegon.

Aegon's fragility, that's the scene about love really rather than loss. It's the time where we really see him purge himself of all these things he's been, like you say, trying to conceal from everyone around him. He keeps repeating, "I will not be seen as weak."

He's obsessed with that idea of not being seen as weak. And here we have him locked in a room on his own, allowing all that stuff that he sees as weakness, showing emotion, even though he's one of the most emotional characters in this entire show.

Yeah, we see him completely breaking down. It's just another bit of evidence to me once I read the script. He's an empath and he feels so, so deeply, even if he tries to conceal it and even if he tries to sort of wear a brave face over it. I think that's what kind of fuels his sort of catatonic nature and his sort of, he's just ready to erupt.

Finally, how would Aegon like to be remembered as a king when they're writing the histories of this time? What does he hope is written down there? A king that against all odds came through and was heroic and powerful and just and he sort of turned it around and made it a good place to live. I think he does want to be a good king.

I don't think he wants to be evil. I don't think he wants to, you know, behead people. And it's just that impulsivity in him that he just can't control, I think. He's a feral dog, and he does need people around him that he trusts that can advise him in a very tactful way. And the people around him currently are not very tactful and try and force him into a corner, and that never works. Well, Tom, thank you very much for joining us. This was a real pleasure. Thank you. Likewise.

That was the lovely Tom Glyn Carney. What a thoughtful guy. I agree. I thought that was so thoughtful, and you can tell he's really reflected a lot on Aegon. Yeah. Which is a wild character to have to reflect on. Well, we have another interview with a member of Team Green. Next up is Matthew Needham, who plays the man pulling the strings in King's Landing, Larys Strong. Let's listen to that conversation. Are you going to hurt me? No, but I cannot vouch for his grace.

I am so excited that today we are joined by Matthew Needham, who plays the very sneaky and ruthless Laris Strong. Matthew, we are so delighted to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you very much. One of our favorite things about Laris is he seems to view his role as primarily a collector of gossip. What do you think it is that drives Laris?

I think his ultimate motivation is I think he just wants to have an impact on the world. I think he wants to leave a mark. I don't think he's vainglorious. I don't think he needs people to know his name or become a legend. I think he just wants to make a mark on the world just for himself, really, even just for himself. The thing I keep thinking about with Laris is that it seems like he's got a real sweet spot when it comes to

Power, but maybe not quite accountability, if that makes sense. Like the world is so brutal, but he seems to be able to kind of move around as he wants to and have influence as he wants to. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't think it's power that he's after and so much as control. Yeah.

Like, I don't think he wants to be the noose, but I think he'd like to be the rope. Do you know what I mean? I think he is able to move around, but he's developed that because of his disability. He's managed to sort of give himself an invisibility cloak, and people don't really pay attention to him. And that's a real strength, and he's used it to his advantage. So, yeah, he's able to sort of...

sneak up on you without you noticing. In his experience, those who look right through you never see you coming. You know, this season we've already seen that Laris is quite eager to drive a wedge between King Aegon and his top counselor, Otto Hightower. I would think, as we find ourselves standing within the hairsbreadth of war, that you would wish to be viewed differently. How? Otto Hightower.

was your father's and Lucreta's. Does he see Otto as a rival to him? I think he sees Otto as what he is, which is an incredibly powerful, dangerous player. And I think removing him changes the board, and the board is already changing. So I think he sees it as an opportunity to take out a big player.

Do you think he does still have some sort of allegiance to Alicent at this point? Or is it more about the players on the board and what he needs to do to climb the ladder? I think it's always about the players on the board. I mean, I think it speaks to the parasitical nature of him that I think he has an innate sense of when his host is dying and when it's time to jump to the next one. Damn. So yeah, he's in that stage really.

After Laris delivers blood, one of the perpetrators of the murder of Prince Jaehaerys,

King Egan goes and kills all the rat catchers, which Otto is worried about because of the effect on the small folk. Is that dimension something that Laris worries about public perception? Yeah, I think you'd be stupid not to. And I think if you're a canny political operator, which Laris is, I think you must always have an ear to the small folk and what your kingdom is actually doing.

going through because they'll rise up and rip you to pieces in a second.

Otto's right. You know, that is a it's a bad move to assassinate all those rat catchers. What is Laris's opinion of Christian Cole's ability to fulfill his duties as Hand of the King? Do you think he'll do a good job? Well, I think he's less of a threat than Otto Hightower because most people are less of a threat than Otto Hightower. But Christian's a dangerous person.

person, of course, but I think there's more of a potential to get around someone like Kristen. And also, Kristen is unpredictable, and you don't know where he's going to end up. He's a dangerous person, and he puts himself in dangerous positions, whereas Otto is much more careful about his own safety. So he's more vulnerable, I imagine, Kristen Cole.

Do you think Laris is team green or is it more just a fact of, again, the players on the board and where he is and the game he needs to play? Yeah, I think he's like the OG team green. I think he was team green before that was like team green. If you think about it, he is.

he sort of foresaw the fact that there were going to be divisions and there was going to be, you know, the people would not accept Rhaenyra. That was pretty evident. I don't think it's a surprise that you first meet Larys in the episode where Aegon is born. I think that is, I think he could tell that

that was probably looking like the better option. And so he gets in there with Allison very, very early on to sort of get the ball rolling really early. So yeah, I think he's team. I think he's he's team green for now. For now. Matthew, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. It was a wonderful conversation. Thank you. Okay, Jason, I think it is time for our weekly check in. Are you still team black?

I know. I hate to even ask. It's just getting messier and messier. I'm going to give it a little more. I'm not one to switch horses midstream, but I do need to see more from Team Black. I need to see more organization, effectiveness, everything. Leadership, what about you? Yeah. I still think I dislike Team Green more strongly than I like Team Black. And so that's

That's how we're going to tally up allegiances this week. Which team do you think is in the lead at the moment, Greta? That's a very difficult question. I mean, I guess you could say Team Green in many metrics. But also, I mean, just thinking about Helena and Allison having to ride in that carriage through town. I stand by the fact that no one is winning in this situation at all, really. What do you think? I agree with you. I think that Team Green on paper is winning.

But I think the long-range metrics are very bad with Otto out of the way and kind of the hottest heads currently in control. And, of course, Team Black has been a mess, as we talked about in this podcast. So Team Green in the lead, but only on paper. TBD. Yeah, TBD. Okay, quickly before we go, let's see where we stand on our bingo cards. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Let's see. What do we have this time around? No dragon death, no foot stuff. Oh, mistaken identity. Nice. I mean, bingo. We got it. All right, folks, that is it for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night right after episode three airs on HBO and Max.

And if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me at netw3rk on X and Instagram. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. The podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion.

And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jay-Ann Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown. And Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and my delightful co-host, Jason Concepcion. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening, and may the gods help us all. I will not be seen as weak. You're already seen as weak, Egon.