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$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this special extra episode of The World of Secrets, the BBC podcast that brings you major global investigations and gripping storytelling. And this is our very first World of Secrets Live. Yay!
I'm Hannah Ajala and we are recording this episode in front of an audience of around 100 people at the BBC's Radio Theatre here in the heart of London. Now, originally called the Concert Hall, it's an impressive art deco theatre that's a grand and very suitable location for BBC World Service Presents, a celebration of what we do. Now, this special episode is going to take you behind the scenes of our journalism and
Season two of World of Secrets was the story of the disciples, an investigation by the BBC World Service into the cult of the Nigerian pastor T.B. Joshua, the founder of the Synagogue Church of All Nations, or properly known as SCOANN.
It's a story of miracles, faith and manipulation, told by people from around the world who gave up everything for one of the most powerful religious figures in African history. We'll also hear a little bit about the first season, the BBC investigation into claims of sexual exploitation made against the former CEO of fashion giant Abercrombie & Fitch. Now, this special episode is about trying to lift the lid on our investigative journalism.
And just a warning to our listeners that because of the nature of these investigations, the episode contains references to physical, psychological or sexual abuse. But first, in case you haven't heard it or it's been a while, let's have a taste of the start of the opening episode of our second season.
We're in Lagos, Nigeria, and everything is going wrong. This argument is happening in front of a compound with 12-foot-high walls guarded by a group of men. And one of them has a gun. We want it removed first, so that whatever you want to do, we can.
They're trying to force me to hand over my camera, evidence of what's been going on behind those walls. If you want to remove any footage from the BBC, you'll need a lawyer and you'll need to get a court order. Over 100 people died inside this place. Countless lives have been destroyed and nobody knows the truth. This compound isn't a prison, it's a church.
And the man who built it is one of the most powerful religious figures of the century. A man with something to hide. You know people don't want you to do a story when they come at you with a gun. This is World of Secrets, season two, The Disciples. This story is like a horror story. It's like something you watch in fiction, but it's true.
A BBC World Service investigation with me, Charlie Northcote. And me, Yemi Siadigoke. What an opener.
Now, I remember watching this, the TV documentary first, followed by the podcast, me and my partner, who met in Lagos, Nigeria, thought, okay, let's just watch one episode and, you know, over time we'll watch the rest. We literally binged it all. And that was the same for the podcast. So I can't wait to hear how this investigation was pulled together, the behind the scenes and more.
So everybody, please put your hands together to welcome our panel.
As we just heard, the podcast series is hosted by Charlie Northcott, to my left, who also produced an accompanying TV documentary with African Eye and Yemisi Adegoke. They're joined today by Rob Byrne from BBC Studios Audio, who was the producer on the podcast. And of course, later we will be joined by another two very special guests.
Charlie, we're going to go straight to the beginning. Finding this story in the first place, how was that? I mean, I don't want you to, you know, compromise your sources, but was it basically someone getting in touch with you?
Well, the sources are in this room, actually. But it was a story that came to us. It wasn't one that we necessarily went out and looked for. But it was something that had been on our radar for a long time. I think anyone who's done investigative work in Nigeria in the last 20 years had heard of TB Joshua, had heard stories, quite disturbing stories, about what was rumoured to be going on there, but nothing concrete had ever come through until...
Ray and Annika decided to reach out to us. And we sat down and spoke to them, and they shared with us the most astonishing and disturbing testimony I've ever heard. In Ray's case, she'd spent her entire youth essentially trapped inside a compound, witnessing and experiencing horrific abuse by one of the most powerful religious figures on the African continent.
And so our job then, journalistically, was sort of twofold. One is, can we verify what these two people are saying is true? And number two, if these people are telling the truth, how can we keep these sources safe? This story in particular, what was it about this story that made you think, OK, this is the one? It's firstly the shocking testimony that we heard from Ray and Annika.
But it's also, I think, the accountability and the significance of T.P. Joshua himself. It's hard sitting in a room in London to really give a sense of how powerful and important this man was. But he had one of the largest followings on social media of any Christian organization in the world.
It was an organisation that had at least nine African presidents patronising or visiting or spending time in it. And it was pulling in millions of followers around the world. So to hear that behind the scenes, this man is secretly torturing people in a compound, sexually abusing, raping, forcing people to have abortions, it's incredibly shocking and horrific. And you want to get to the bottom of it. The other factor at play, particularly on the safety issue, was...
Some of the sources told us right from the offset that they'd faced threats. Someone showed us images of when they'd been allegedly beaten up by members of the church, beaten to a pulp.
And they claimed that, you know, the police were involved in this process. So, you know, they were making allegations of a form of kind of state capture by this church. Like it was involved in silencing people who tried to speak out about the abuses and that there were authorities potentially involved in facilitating that. So it was a story of enormous significance and, yeah, took two years to get to the bottom of it. Gosh, and that's two years of just coming across the most
triggering you know kind of stories and I'm sure for the the many people that had watched and and listened it covers on so many like personal issues and I can't help but think about the careful considerations that took place during that process like how did you navigate that
Yeah, I mean, it's safety on a physical front, but also on a mental health front for everyone involved. In order for us to understand what happened, we have to ask people what happened, and that means them having to open up about, in most cases, the worst thing that ever happened to them, to someone who they don't really know. That is an incredibly traumatic, difficult and frightening thing to do, and we had to build...
a lot of trust and a lot of support and infrastructure also in terms of psychological support to make sure that people felt that they could do that safely.
In many cases, people hadn't been believed when they tried to speak it out before. And so you're trying to strike this balance, this difficult balance, I think, journalistically, between being compassionate and empathetic and trying to help people, but also trying to really drill down into the truth. You know, memories can become cloudy and difficult with time, and particularly with trauma. So there's this challenge of having to cross-verify everything that's being said.
One of the ways we did that was to try and create separate pools of sources because we were talking, once we got into it, of more than 20 people who had allegations. We divided them essentially into national groups. So former British disciples, former Nigerian disciples, former South African disciples. And we didn't let those different groups know that we were in communication with the others.
And the purpose of that is to try and avoid cross-contamination of the testimony. It means we can ask people who were there, "What did you experience?" knowing that no one is influencing that testimony and knowing also that that is an independent testimony that's corroborating the others. And that's where we came to this extraordinary eureka moment where we realized that there were people who were in this place, in this compound,
at different spaces in time spanning 20 years, telling us almost identical stories about a modus operandi, a format of abuse and the kind of abuses that were taking place. And that's the point of verification. That's the point where you know this is more than just this person's story. This is becoming fact.
And yeah, that was the evidential threshold, the legal threshold we needed to get over in order to publish such massive allegations against such a rich, powerful institution. Yeah. And this investigation is happening in a very special country called Nigeria.
Yeah, Missy, I know you have a lot of experience on working and stories in Nigeria for the most part of the past decades. And I smile because, of course, it's somewhere that's close to home and, again, comes with lots of challenges navigating it, especially when it comes to religion. How did you find that process? Yes, it is a very interesting and special country that I have worked in for over a decade.
I mean, it's tough. Nigeria is a really tough environment in terms of reporting freely. It's becoming tougher and tougher to do that. And when you are talking about religious figures, when you're talking about people with power, with money, with influence, it becomes even more challenging. And in this particular case, I mean, I remember when Charlie first told me he was looking into this and I was just like, are you being serious? Like, I couldn't believe it when he said this.
It was an incredible story, but the risk was massive. The people who were in country and out of country that were coming and sharing their testimony, going up against this type of figure. And I know that Charlie's saying for people who are not in Nigeria, it's difficult to get across just how powerful this person was, how influential, how much money he had. And yeah, I mean, journalists in Nigeria face a lot of intimidation, harassment, threats, and...
As BBC journalists, we have a degree of protection to a degree, but as you heard in the first clip, not entirely. So it was a massive risk to do this. And you mentioned, it's all about the lens, isn't it? Like someone that is in Nigeria could receive it completely different to thousands of miles away here in London. When this story broke, how well known was it in Nigeria in comparison to...
the rest of the world. So as Charlie said, there have been people that have been speaking up about this man for a long time.
the general consensus was that there's something strange going there. But the fact that he was a philanthropist, or that's the way he portrayed himself, that he was, you know, giving away to the needy, offering these so-called miracles to people, we're thinking maybe he's a bit strange, but, you know, he's offering services that the Nigerian government is not doing and no one else is, you know, offering us this sort of support, this sort of help. And since nobody can prove anything, then, you know, we'll just go along with it. So there were always rumours that...
but nothing concrete, nothing that stuck. And I guess when it came to the interview stages before you were asking the hard questions, how did it feel for you personally being involved in that and hearing
just these experiences that they had to endure for years. It's always weird, like, you know, as journalists, you never want to be the kind of story, like, it's not about you, but, you know, this is something that's happening in Nigeria. I mean, I was brought up Christian. I wasn't a follower of TB Joshua's church, but I know people that have been, you know, all these types of things. He's been such a strong sort of cultural figure in Nigeria. Yeah.
And hearing these sorts of testimonies, it was absolutely shocking. As Charlie said, some of the most harrowing testimony I've ever heard. And I was honestly just, and still am, in complete awe of the people who actually spoke up.
how tough that was to go on record, to come out with their names, with their identities, to put that in the public domain, was so brave. And seeing the response, you know, like a lot of pastors in Nigeria, there's this idea of touch not my anointed. You know, you don't go after big religious figures. They are essentially mini gods on earth. And T.B. Joshua was one of the most influential, one of the most powerful pastors
that there was and for them to be able to come and expose him for what he truly was, was immensely powerful and sparked so many conversations. I mean, for this investigation to kind of get people having those conversations and at least looking at religion through a slightly more critical lens, I think has been really, really powerful. Rob, obviously, as you know, this started off as a TV investigation and
You were part of the team that made it work into a podcast. What were the challenges of that? I mean, there were challenges, but I mean, Charlie and the team had done hours and hours of interviews already. It was just about listening through to that. And I think there was something like 50 hours worth that I listened through to.
And then just working out how you're going to construct it into a narrative that kind of fits the podcast format, the sort of ways in which you tell stories that people are accustomed to, and trying to find the best, that sounds obvious, but the best bits, right? And then once you've got your best bits, like the shooting, sounds strange to call shooting the best, but, you know, that's a hugely dramatic bit of audio that...
we were able to get into the podcast that you guys didn't use for the television documentary. And I think that's a good example of the difference of the two mediums is that, you know, there are those moments and the kind of workings of the investigation that you're trying to pepper through alongside the sort of narrative of the main characters. And the other sort of, I guess, challenge is when you've got so many powerful interviews, which they were,
working out what you're going to have to lose, unfortunately, because the manner in which you listen to a podcast is different to a TV documentary. This was one without a narrator where you're led by the contributors and they're giving more succinct answers
and you're bouncing from contributor to contributor to contributor, and you can do that because they're in vision, whereas in a podcast, you can't hold all of those people in your mind, you can't see them, you can't visualise them. So you've got to strip that back a little bit. And I think also just trying to be true to how the investigation unfolded as well. There's one quite funny story about the gunshot, actually, that I'd quite like to share. So that night, it was obviously a distressing night,
They actually unloaded an AK-47 above our heads and it
It clipped the wall just above us and took a bit of chip off the top of the wall. And we're lucky that we didn't get clipped. And they were doing it to intimidate us to try and force us to hand over our material, which we refused to do. And so they, after that, commandeered us at gunpoint, took over our car, forced us to the local police station. And through contacts and some help, we managed to eventually get released.
But that night I gave my wife a call to let her know what had happened.
spoke to her on the phone and she'd had a really frustrating day at work and she just unloaded everything to me over the phone at work and it got to the end of the conversation I just hadn't mentioned it so I just said okay night speak to you tomorrow and just did and just left it and just didn't go there so she didn't actually find out till like a couple of days later thank you for these brilliant contributions teamwork really makes the dream work
Now, The Disciples is the second series for the BBC's World of Secrets podcast, and there are five more currently in the works. So that's a bit of inside scoop. It would be great to reflect back for a moment on the first season, which launched in October last year, and investigated claims of sexual exploitation made against the former CEO of fashion brand Abercrombie & Fit.
Mike Jeffries and his partner who are accused of hosting sex events around the world. Rihanna Croxford led the investigation and hosted this series and is somewhere in the audience today. There she is. Hi, Rihanna. So if we were to look into your investigation, where did it begin and was it with a tip off? I wish it was a tip off. It all began with a phone call back in January 2021.
I was researching the fashion industry when I spotted a cryptic post on Instagram. It was a group of male models talking about how they felt abuse against men in the industry was being ignored, that there was almost a deafening silence around it. And I reached out to one of the men who had commented, a man named Barrett Paul, and we ended up talking on the phone for an hour. And suddenly there was a big shift in tone.
and he told me that he felt he could trust me with a secret he'd never really told anyone before. And that's how I first learned about Mike Jeffries and his partner, Matthew Smith, and these allegations that they had exploited young men for sex.
through what was described as a slick operation involving a network of recruiters and a middleman. Wow, okay, so once you'd found that out, where did you go from there, like the next steps to get into production mode?
It was really tricky. What was hard about this story was that there was absolutely nothing in the public domain about it. Usually when I look into stories, I can find leads online, on social media, in newspaper archives, in court records. But here there was nothing. And I remember thinking, how could I ever stand this up? You know, is this true?
And what was unusual was that Mike Jeffries was a really well-known figure. He'd run Abercrombie for 22 years. He had turned the company from fashion backwater into a multi-billion dollar success story. But he'd also been quite controversial. During his time, he'd faced claims of discrimination, concerns about his expenses. So I thought there would be something there, but there wasn't. And so it was quite old school. It started through word of mouth.
Barrett-Paul suggested a few names of men who he thought might know more, though he wasn't really certain
I started writing handwritten letters, crafting social media messages. I reached out to hundreds of former Abercrombie models and after some time started to hear more allegations of abuse but also managed to uncover evidence, documentary evidence supporting these claims of a well-oiled machine. We found flight tickets, emails, event itineraries and
Together, it showed that there had been a global scheme with events held in cities like London, New York, Marrakesh, over nearly a decade between 2009 and 2015.
Yeah, it really grew and grew. Yeah, and I was just listening to the first episode and it's a young man that's speaking to you and is opening up and I guess it's that thing about the vulnerability of contributors. What did you need to consider whilst...
you know, working with him. He was very open and expressive, but, you know, it was quite graphic stuff he was telling you. Absolutely. The men were so brave in speaking out and also being so vulnerable. You know, I feel like we rarely hear men talk so openly about their feelings and their experiences like that. And
Anytime somebody tells me about a difficult experience like abuse, I always try and be as open and clear as possible. I'm often conscious that they are describing events to me where they have felt powerless or events that were beyond their control, and I never want to replicate that dynamic. I want to empower them, let them know their options. It's their decision. They're never rushed.
I like to give them the space to feel like if they want to tell their story that they can do that. It can be scary speaking out, going public, using your name, your voice, going on the record like that. So the main thing really is I always ask, what's your support network like? Who have you told? Is there someone who you trust? And fortunately, a lot of the men had told their wives, had told their partners about these allegations of abuse.
And so really it was assessing their individual needs and
ensuring that I maintained open dialogue and consistent dialogue with them at all times because it is a nerve-wracking process going up against someone who is so powerful. They were terrified of also not being believed because of the fact that there was nothing about this in the public domain. So it was a journey for all of us. Gosh, and it's definitely a podcast worth listening to. I'm sure she's definitely sold it to everyone there. So thank you so much for that, Rihanna. APPLAUSE
And thank you everyone for staying here with us. Coming up, I'll be joined on stage by two of the whistleblowers, two of those who decided to tell the world what happened to them. Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th Mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com slash switch whenever you're ready. $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. At Amica Insurance, we know it's more than just a house. It's your home. The place that's filled with memories. The early days of figuring it out to the later years of still figuring it out.
For the place you've put down roots, trust Amika Home Insurance. Amika. Empathy is our best policy. As we've already discussed, our journalists can't bring these important investigations to life without people with lived experience coming forward.
More than 25 former disciples spoke to the BBC World Service from the UK, Nigeria, US, South Africa, Ghana, Namibia and Germany, each giving a powerful corroborating testimony about their experiences within the cult of TB Joshua. Now among them was Ray-Anne Adjokere, who I'd like to welcome on the stage here with us now. Thank you.
We've been talking a lot backstage and, yeah, just really, really warmed to have them join us here right now. So Ray spent 12 years as one of T.B. Joshua's disciples inside his compound in Lagos after being recruited by the church from the UK. Adjokia, who's beside Ray, is one of T.B. Joshua's daughters who was forced to become a disciple at seven years old.
Let's hear a little bit of you both from the podcast now. We're talking about years and years of abuse, just beatings, beatings and more beatings. I didn't even have time to recover from one before another one was happening. And even if I had recovered from one, another one was happening. Nobody was listening. Nobody was trying to help me.
Why did no one do anything about it? Can you explain how could these people be so cruel to allow this to all happen? I think to understand it fully, you've got to understand how coerced people were there. It's not an excuse, it's just a fact. But it was like, it's like you become numb, like you see so much of this stuff. It's like, you know, if people want to talk about what happened in the war, in World War II...
There was no justification. Terrible crimes were committed. And some people came forward after and said, I don't know what the hell I was doing. I don't know why I did that. Why did I think that was okay? And this is the power of totalism. And people who know how to manipulate the mind of another person should not be walking in the public domain. We all thought we were in heaven, but we were in hell. And in hell, terrible things happen.
That was an incredibly powerful and open testimony shared by Ray and Adjokia. So, Ray, I'll hand it over to you. Maybe you could start by explaining how you first became involved in this World Service investigation. So, I think, first of all, to say it wasn't just me.
Annika, who's somewhere there. We'd been searching for years for somebody to listen to these stories. I think I had been out of the cult for about eight years or so.
And finally, I met with Charlie along with Annika and we shared our stories. And there was a guy who listened. And, you know, I'll never be able to say thank you enough to him along with all the others for taking the time to listen.
believe us, to just have that ear. We heard a moment ago by our brilliant production team just about the effort that they put into their work, ensuring that the stories being told are true and accurate. How challenging was it for you to trust them?
you know, with your story? Like this person from the BBC has contacted you and said, hey, we want to tell your story. Like how receptive were you to that? We'll go with Ray first. We'll go to Jackie. I think the desire for truth was greater than the fear. I think the trust came through...
Kind of just the simplicity of integrity. When I met with Charlie and Annika and I were chatting over a bowl of chips, of which I didn't seem to eat many from what I remember, Charlie's response and the response of his colleague that was there at the time was,
was so genuine, they were so moved. And it's almost like all of that voice of fear inside of you, you know, "Don't trust journalists," or "They're well dodgy," you know, "You can't trust them," like, that voice is going on here. But the response that we're seeing, the questions, the fact that they were so moved,
It was like, I want to say it was like that connection was there right from the beginning. It was like, these guys are actually genuine. We've actually finally found the good guys. And to be sincere, that was like the journey through the whole project. It was incredible. I mean, this team was amazing. Then we got to meet the MC and Rob and Georgia, who's at the back, to do the whole project. And it was just incredible. Everyone worked together as a team, took great care to make sure that we were all okay. And it was a bit of a roller coaster, I think.
But yeah, I think it was human. I think that's what made it possible. It was a human experience on all sides. Just to add to what Ray said, I mean, I and Charlie, like, sometimes now discuss about the very first day I met with Charlie. It was a very rainy day. And I remember the conversation as a one-way traffic jam.
And that was not because I don't know how to manage conversations, but it was more along the line of I had almost met someone who for the first time did beyond just hear. He listened. He was concerned. And he was genuine with...
his emotions and I was the one in pain but I could see reflection of tears in Charlie's eyes and in those moments I was just like oh my god I felt very connected to his truth and I was very very happy to tell him my side of the truth as well we were in we were in Lagos in Nigeria in this crappy hotel and it was like you said it was pouring with rain but the thing that was special for me was I'd had multiple people tell me an interview that they did not believe you were alive that there were people who thought you were dead
And you'd been missing for a long time since you'd escaped from the church. Jockey had been out on the streets, cast out. And yeah, we weren't sure we'd ever find you. And we were told by quite a few people that we wouldn't. And so to actually see you face to face was a moment of like,
An incredible moment for me. And I will never forget you standing there in the pouring rain at sort of 10pm at night. Yeah. And you spoke for about eight hours straight. Straight. Without breathing. Straight. But, you know, it was... I mean, I remember you showing me the scars on your body from the beatings you received. I remember you showing me text message evidence of people who'd left that place and felt guilty about what they'd done to you, trying to apologise to you.
and it's just this incredible moment of realising this lost daughter of TV Joshua is real and her testimony is unbelievable and shocking and you are alive and keeping you alive for the rest of it was a challenge I know I'm so thankful to be honest and
I cannot say it enough how much humanity is shown throughout this documentary. And there were times where the chances were really high I wouldn't make it over the line. I had lost touch psychologically. I'd lost touch with myself on different scales. But to just be surrounded by people who not only believe your story but also believe your person and see so much potential in everything you can be, it just meant that
As much as I had given up on myself, there had been strength that had come from people who were invested in the idea that I could be everything that I so wanted to be. And I can't help but think about all of those years, right, that you had to revisit and share, you know, from those first initial chats with Charlie to then, you know, sharing it on camera. Yeah.
Did you feel as though there were any internal battles, as though you were betraying TB Joshua? I mean, it's very easy to feel that way, and it's very easy. But the truth is, you have to understand where your loyalty lies. And where your loyalty lies to the truth and to humanity, which is people around you, and
I feel like something Emisi and Charlie have explained really well has been how much of a powerful figure this was. So you understand that it went beyond a religious level to a political level. When your loyalty lies to the truth and to see people free from this locked up mentality, fear is dead on arrival. It's dead on arrival. What about yourself, Raye?
I didn't feel any loyalty at all to the cult leader. I felt loyalty to all the people who were still trapped in various circumstances and situations who weren't permitted to speak. I mean, we have a handful of...
powerful, strong people who managed to fight the fight to tell the truth. But there were others due to circumstance or still due to the fact that they're trapped in fear, weren't able to come out publicly and speak. And so I think it's really important to note that there's two of us here on the stage this evening, but we literally are just like two people representing hundreds. And some of those still can't speak because what happened to them was so difficult. Did I have loyalty to him? Absolutely no.
No, that was not a difficult decision for me. I feel like years of betrayed loyalty, loyalty to something that was deceptive, damaging, dangerous. I think my time with that was done. And it was a case of being able to speak that truth and get people to listen. So yeah, I sit more on that camp, I guess.
And I guess when we talk about freedom, right, it's subjective. And I'd love to know, would you say it was something you felt strongly about when you left or when this message was shared with the world? At what point did you truly feel free? Oh, Hannah, that is a juicy question. I love talking about freedom. It's getting so deep right now. We'll be here all night so you can, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I think freedom.
Like for me, I think understanding that physically we were all in a cult. At what point do you leave is a really good question to ask. I always tell people I left in 2013 physically.
Mentally, when did I gain freedom? I'm still busy gaining it, people. This stuff takes time. Thought reform takes like, you know, three or four days, but it'll then take three or four decades to undo. So I think for me, freedom resides in your mind. And it's a battle every day to ensure that you're upholding that freedom, that you're seeking it, and then you're not getting taken down a pathway that is narrow-minded or too black and white, I guess. So...
Yeah, I think freedom's for the taking, right? It's in front of all of us in all different areas and I'm still working that out. Yeah, of course, it's still a process. One thing I'd love to say that just makes me respect all of you who've spoken out so much and I want other people to know when reflecting on the bravery of speaking out is the extent to which in the place that you were, it was drilled into you
constantly, that you should never speak about what you went through inside. And that if you do speak about what goes on inside, there will be consequences. And the reality is all of you have faced consequences since you left. You know, psychological consequences. You lost your education. You lost your, you know, your youth in a lot of cases. You lost family members. So you lost so much. And again, in choosing to speak out...
We've seen an incredible explosion of online abuse targeting the people who come out from people who appear on the surface to have religious affiliations with TB Joshua.
And that has chased you guys and followed you guys. And still you're standing here and you're on a stage choosing to make the decision to speak out. Despite that, you know, most of us never, ever have to deal, even as journalists, with that level of abuse that you guys have had to deal with. I don't know, that deserves a round of applause more than the journalists themselves.
Thank you so much. And thankfully, we do have more questions that will be coming from you. We've got two awesome people with mics that are jogging around. So if you'd like to ask a question, please raise your hand and they will come to you. When I watch that documentary, because I'm from Nigeria, I grew up in Nigeria.
TV Joshua, Emmanuel TV was one of the TV stations we all watched growing up. So many stories we watched on the TV regarding to the miracles and his philanthropies giving to the people was something that was so very, very motivating because this person was kind. That was a picture we all saw. When that story came out, it was a very big shock to everybody.
We all thought this person is like this. And people have a different perception about a story. People have a different view about a story. When I checked the comments people made on that story, people said, why did it take so long? Everybody began to ask themselves, okay, is this story true? Okay, was this what really happened? I think it created some kind of confusion.
in the mind of so many people and also gave clarity to some other people. But there are still so many people who are still not sure, who are still doubting, who still need more clarity. On the issue of doubt, when you have more than 20 people speaking on the record about abuse and you spent two and a half years verifying the material, it boils down to
the faith of those individuals and whether they're willing to question a religious figure of that prominence. And it's less about, I think, the facts being presented and more about the state of religion. I mean, I don't know whether you could comment on that. Yeah, I mean, I think you've said that. I think also another one of the comments that I saw was, why is this now coming out now that he's dead? And it was really frustrating because the investigation started when he was still alive.
and he passed while the evidence was being gathered. I think it's exactly what Charlie said. I mean, you're not going to be able to convince everybody of everything, but the evidence is quite clear. I think it's quite damning. It's extensive. It's taken... You know, this has been abuse that's been perpetrated over decades. People that were at the church at different times who don't know each other from a variety of countries. To me, it's a very, very plain case, and I think...
I think for a lot of people, because of the way religious figures are revered in Nigeria, it's going to be very, very difficult for them to see it from any other perspective, other than it being a witch hunt.
The evidence again is extensive. Thank you very much. I'd like to respond to my colleague. I'm Nigerian as well. One of the reasons why it takes a while to release documentaries is that it takes a while. You have to spend a lot of time. So the question we should be asking is, did it happen?
If it happened, what does it matter when the documentary is released? I think that's a question we should be asking. It happened and they've done the work and these ladies and others are so bold enough, you know, with audacity to come out and talk and we should commend them. Thank you.
We do have someone in the audience that we'd love to hear from, and it's Annika, a former member of the church. If you just have any comments, we'd just love to hear from you as you're here. Of course, I think it's very apt that this podcast is called World of Secrets. And I think what I'm going to say will go towards what the gentleman asked, and it's that
This was something we lived with individually. You know, there was that fear of speaking out, even to each other, of not being believed. And that is to do with the coercion that happened. And coming together and hearing each other's stories would not have been possible without the BBC investigation team. And it's been absolutely incredible. And I am so immensely proud.
proud of everybody but also you know I was having people coming up to me saying congratulations this is wonderful we're so proud of you but you know what I want to throw that back onto the BBC investigation team and say thank you so much for giving us a voice
When we didn't have a voice, because as that gentleman has said, why didn't you come out before? Where could we go? We tried for years and no one believed us. It had to be this time when we all could come together and thank goodness that the BBC gave us that platform and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Before we go, I should say that the BBC approached the Synagogue Church of All Nations with the allegations made in the Disciples series. They didn't offer a response or address any of the claims directly, but in an earlier email told us that making unfounded allegations against Prophet T.B. Joshua is not a new occurrence. None of the allegations was ever substantiated.
Thank you all so much for being part of World of Secrets Live here at World Service Presents in London. If you haven't listened, all nine episodes of our second season of The Disciples is available right now.
as are all eight episodes of the Abercrombie Guys that we heard about from Rihanna Croxford. Look out for Charlie Northcott's next investigation in season three of The World of Secrets, which begins in July, and Yemisi Adegoke's next investigation in season four, a couple of months or so after that. Please make sure you follow or subscribe to World of Secrets, and then you'll get both of these episodes.
all future seasons automatically and from all of us at BBC Radio Theatre in London thank you for listening I'm Hannah Jalla it was a pleasure thank you so much World of Secrets The Disciples is by the BBC World Service I'm Hannah Jalla and the producer of this live show is Becca Bryars hey I
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