The Fabulous Jim Colucci: Author of "Golden Girls Forever"
47:07 Share

Girl, Rosetta Stone is back. Look, it is my New Year's Resoluche. I'm going to refresh the Spanish for my Mexico trip because I've been studying Spanish off and on with Rosetta Stone for like almost 10 years now. I use Rosetta Stone to learn that language you just used, Resoluche. Ha ha ha!

It's one of the 25 languages they offer. Seriously, start fresh in the new year, right? Let me talk about personal growth. Probably the number one or two thing on my list of what I want in myself and a partner is someone with a growth mindset. Yes. You think you're done growing. Maybe you're not for me. So let me tell you, one of the things that I always want to do is learn a new language. And I'm not just saying that. Really, it makes you a better person. It makes you more at one with the world. Let me tell you why Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with

millions of users. We've got the fast language acquisition, right? Rosetta Stone immerses you in all of the ways. We've got the speech recognition tool. That is my favorite thing. Me too. Like, how do I say resolution? The way that Patrick would say it. But I mean,

But I'm telling you, it's kind to you. It doesn't make fun of you for attempting the accent. And the more authentic the accent, the more authentic you're going to appear when you're trying to speak the language. And I'm all about amazing value. Give me a coupon any day of the week. This year, you get 25 languages, lifetime access, 50% off. That's a steal. So, Cheesecakes, here we go. Start off the new year with a resolution you can reach today. The Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast listeners can take advantage of this Rosetta Stone's

lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash golden girls. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash golden girls today.

Exclamation point. Exclamation point. Broadway legend Jennifer Simard, Chumba Casino is a sponsor this month. Well, podcast legend Patrick Hines, lay it on us. All right, Cheesecakes, why wait for fun when Chumba Casino is just a click away? Play anytime, anywhere. With hundreds of thrilling online social casino games like

Bingo! Slots and solitaire. It's free to play with no purchase necessary and new games drop every week to keep the excitement fresh. Plus claim free daily login bonuses and a free welcome bonus just for joining. Start your next adventure at chumbacasino.com. No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply.

Hey, Cheesecakes. Patrick here. Oh, my goodness. I do not even know what to say about what you're about to hear. We are so beyond honored to have the great Jim Colucci in the studio with us today, Cheesecakes. As I'm sure every last one of you knows, Jim is the author of the definitive book about the Golden Girls called Golden Girls Forever. He is the true go-to source for all things Golden Girls, and it was an absolute must-read.

Absolutely.

Jim Colucci, this is such an honor to have you in the booth. Thank you for joining us on the Golden Girls. I am so happy to be here with you, too. You do a great job. Thank you. And you're keeping the flame alive, too. Yes, it's such an honor to have you in the booth. We've been talking about the book since day one. You should see in our Facebook group, people are getting the book.

I love that. Thank you. The seminal tome of the Golden Girls. You know everything. I brought mine and I'm begging you for an autograph. Oh my God. Are you kidding? You have to beg. Of course. Let me chime in with an equally excited welcome. It really is our honor. As we often say, you wrote the Bible. So we really feel like we're talking with the man, the myth, the legend. I love that.

Well, tell us, mister, how did the Golden Girls come to you? You know, I really am... Because I'm old, I was able to be in the right place at the right time. Yes. The show premiered when I was about to turn 16. It was just...

required viewing from moment one. I'm so old that there was no internet in 1985. I remember the pre-internet days. The pre-internet days. I'm going to interrupt you because I looked ahead at all your favorite TV shows, which we'll get to. I'm like, oh, we're the same age. Yeah. No, you're younger than I am. I'm old too. You're younger. Not much. If you're about to turn 50. No. No. I'm 54. I looked you up, lady. You're younger than I am. Okay. By like, what, a year? Yeah, about a year. Okay. Good.

God, you look good, girl. We had Stan Zimmerman sitting in that chair and it was the same thing. I think he took the potion at Death Becomes Her. Yes, he did. I mean, my God, and now a warning, Stan Zimmerman. So did you, you sexy drink of water. Look at you. But so the Golden Girls have found you when you were 60, so you watched it in the original era. I was ready the moment they were ready to premiere it. You know, the thing is, I was always a TV head and...

And back in the day when there was no Internet, the only place you would get news about TV shows that were on and even upcoming like pilots and stuff was just if it happened to be a thing in your local TV column in your local paper. And so at some point, because of the prestigious auspices of the show with the Tony Thomas and Susan Harris and then the cast.

It was getting written up in the spring of 85, just when it was going to pilot. Like there's going to be this show. Yeah. That's a super group of all of the actresses you love from television. It's going to be Betty White from Mary Tyler Moore, and it's going to be B Arthur and Ruma Clannahan from Maud. And it's this, they're coming together finally. So there was a good deal of hype. So I was following it. So of course the moment the show debuted, I was there and I just was in love with it, you know, and there is still, I'm telling you something you obviously know, um,

there's still in our world a lot of ageism and misogyny out there yeah to the point where there are still people who hear the title the golden girls and think it's a punch line right i remember hearing like mitch mcconnell you know say in 2015 like oh the the democratic slate is turning out to be like a rerun of the golden girls and i was like i mean god are you out of touch i mean that's a good thing i know look who's talking thank you thank you i'd like to do my mitch mcconnell impression i need to

step out of the booth. That's really good. Give it to Nancy Pelosi. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that there were a lot of us who were fans of the show in its first run. Maybe little gay boys like me. Yeah. Who were closeted about being fans. And I wasn't. I remember talking, telling my friends I liked the show. Yeah. But I don't think it was something that people bonded over as much. I read somewhere that

like between Golden Girls and Designing Women that the activism of those shows and the progressive tones really helped me helped you a lot oh yeah a lot of people no doubt I was growing up in a pretty conservative family and I lived in a town that wasn't that conservative which is great and I had so some good influences at school but I saw a lot of a different viewpoint on a lot of different topics by watching TV yeah then I would have gotten from my parents you know

Since we're there. So speaking of television, I make no apologies for how much I love television. And I saw a list of some of your shows and I thought, OK, first of all, Laverne and Shirley, ABC, 830. Come on. They taught me comedy. The Electric Company. Oh, my God. Such a funny, funny show. I have been obsessed with that. That actually was I was thinking about a book about The Electric Company next, but I think there has been one. Really? I am so obsessed. I mean, the Yeti sitting on the ice cream cone. Get out of here. Yeah.

There was a store just in the road to get on the highway in my hometown in New Jersey that said it was called the Gray Bar Electric Company, which I think was an actual electrician. But thanks to the electric company in Sesame Street, I could read before I was two. Oh, wow. So I would read that it said the electric company on this store and throw a tantrum that we weren't stopping there because we're going by the electric company. Why are you not stopping?

And it took like months for my parents to figure out why I would throw a tantrum. And I was like, for Christmas.

I mean, I thought that they were withholding. Yes, your little kid brain. Yes, they were withholding the electric company from me. Speaking of learning how to read, do you remember that thing where we were like, golden. Girls. Golden girls. Yes, the two silhouettes, yes. Golden. Yes, it was girls. Golden girls. It was like in blue. Yes. A little ahead of your time, but you didn't miss a beat, Jim. And it would have the song being a da, da. Yes. Yes. Yes.

How about this? How about this? Deep cut. Spider-Man. Where are you going from Spider-Man? Nobody knows who you are.

All right. And last thing for a TV show. Well, two more things. One, I love that I read, too, that it's so important that the Jeffersons and the Good Times helped you sort of encounter another world and culture besides your white suburb. Yeah. I mean, I lived in a white suburb next to a very black city. But New Jersey, I hope it's gotten better, was very segregated. And the only time we would see black people is working in retail in the stores. And so, you know, I don't think I would have had a very

well-versed opinion of other types of people of other races had I not watched television. Same, I grew up in New Hampshire and there was very few black people in my community. And so that was very important to see it on, God bless television. But the last thing I have to say is Moonlighting. How about, wait, how about, I know this is a Golden Girls podcast. There's so many shows we could go into. Moonlighting and the Taming of the Shrew episode. Oh my God. Get out of here. It was like, good love,

That could not have been more perfectly timed because that was during my Shakespeare unit in high school. It was my senior year. Yeah. My junior year. Yeah. Because I'm old too. The only thing...

The only thing I know about Moonlighting is that that's where Bruce Willis came from for Die Hard. Yes. Right? I love it. Well, yes, because Bruce Willis broke with Moonlighting. That was his big... Oh, is that right? He left to go be a movie star? Well, he didn't really leave Moonlighting to be a movie star because Die Hard was after Moonlighting, but it was the reason he got the job in Die Hard. Right. And allegedly, they did not...

get along. No, yeah, that's true. He and Sybil Shepard, right? No, there was no love lost there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I have dominated the last five minutes. Oh, my God. Please keep going. Well, listen, anybody who knows and loves The Golden Girls obviously knows your book. Tell us the story about what made you decide to write the book to begin with. So, having been obsessed with it, I then would also watch it in the 90s when it was on Lifetime. Yes. And I remember thinking,

I'm watching this like four times a day. This was again before DVDs, before streaming. So that was where you'd find it. And I wonder if anybody else is doing this. And it was starting to enter my mind that, hey, by this point I've come out. So other people probably have come out about Loving Golden Girls as well. Yeah.

maybe there's a community here. And so I had it in my mind. I was writing for TV Guide a little bit in addition to the day job I had. And I thought, you know, if I ever get a chance to write a book, it's going to be about the Golden Girls. Because when I was a kid, and again, the only place you could get information was the newspaper or maybe a book about a show if there was one. But they were awfully often terrible. Yeah. Often hastily written and whatever. So I always thought if I get a chance to write a book, I'm going to do it in my Virgo obsessive way where I'm going to do a deep dive and I'm going to

tell it all. And this is the show I'll start with. And, you know, all the women were still alive and I had realized that they're yet it's an older cast. And so I better do it soon. So I put together this book proposal when I met a book agent for the golden girls and I,

I got sidetracked a little and it's a wonderful sidetracking because this book agent knew of an open writing assignment to write a book about Will and Grace. And I'm like, my second favorite show and you're hiring me to do it? Yes, I will. Yeah. Thank you. And I got to go on set there and that was a wonderful thing. Was it when the show was still in production? In production, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I saw things. But it was... Can you tell us some of the things that you saw? It was just, you know, every set has its disagreements and its agreements. And...

Whenever you hear, Jennifer, you've probably experienced this. It probably happens in Broadway, too, because there's this old cliche that if I go to a TV critics thing and the whole cast is on stage, or I'm sure Broadway says it, too, we're like a family. Of course, yeah. And yes, that's true, but that means both good and bad. Oh, yeah. Families fight. Coming out of the holidays recently, we understand what a family is. Yes, the microcosm is often microcosm of the macrocosm. Exactly. So that dysfunction that you have

that you bring from your unprocessed baggage and trauma you're going to bring to your work family. And especially if you are then acting and being vulnerable with someone and showing them this part of yourself, whatever baggage you as an actor made you become an actor, which there probably is, is going to show. And so my point being that when casts, including Will and Grace, including All in the Family, including Golden Girls, every show I've ever worked on has this,

They say they're a family, and that means that they love each other, and they will have each other's back from an outsider attacking them. But it also means that on a day-to-day basis, you might watch them fight. Which is interesting because, you know, we all sort of followed the Megan Mullally drama. None of us know what happened. No, I don't either. And that was the second run of the show, so I wasn't involved at that point. It came back, you know, however many years, 10, 20 years later, whatever it was, and then that relationship fell apart, which is so sad. So on that front...

So you interviewed all of the four actresses from the Golden Girls? Not Estelle. So what ended up happening was by the time I got back to the Golden Girls after Will & Grace, I had put out feelers for Estelle knowing that she had dementia. Yeah. I had put out feelers just before I was doing Will & Grace. And someone who knew her caretaker said to me, you know, she has good days and bad days. It's possible. Well, a year later, by the time I'm ready to get back to it, they're like, yeah, it's not possible. Yeah. And so...

I, of course, regretted I didn't get to talk to Estelle. But what I made sure to do was speak to everyone I could in her life. So I really got a sense of her. So I spoke to her caretaker. I spoke to both her sons. I spoke to two of her best friends. Spoke to Harvey Fierstein about being with her in Torch Song Trilogy. And so I really feel like I got a portrait of Estelle. And I have to tell you, it was a lesson for me because when you interact with the actual actor or subject of any interview, you can really admire them. But so much of what

what's in the moment gets in the way. Like that weird thing where I just spilled my soda all over your coffee table and I feel bad gets in the way of how I really see you because now I'm feeling guilty and I'm getting distracted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too much of the actual interplay distracts you from painting a portrait immediately of the person. But when you talk to people about their best friends and they tell you all that,

I felt like I got such a portrait of her and I fell in love with her more than I had been because I love all of four of the characters.

But I wouldn't say Sophia is my favorite. Yeah. I mean, sometimes she is. Yeah. Yeah. But of the four, I wouldn't say she's my favorite. But when I heard about her, what a loving person she was, how she worked for AIDS fundraising very early, how she didn't care that there was a stigma, how she had all these gay best friends, she would call it. She would go out with her five fag minimum. She would say sometimes in Hollywood, she would hit the town and.

And, you know, and that's when she recognized Stan Zimmerman as a gay writer. And James Burke, his writing partner, she pulled him aside behind the set and said, you're one of us. Yes, yes, yes. You know, I just love that. It just made me fall in love with her even more deeply. I had the same feeling, Jim, doing this. She was not my favorite character, no offense. And then this podcast and all of our research and, you know, your book and all the...

All the learning I've done has made me fall in love with her more. I think her as a person. And it makes sense that they're like she was their favorite. I think she was a lot of people's favorite. And I think she was the other actresses. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of loving her like she was universally loved. You know, as an actor, I would think you would really relate to that because the thing that also got me about her is.

And I knew a little of this, but not enough going in. I knew from the beginning, oh, she's the non-name, right? The other three were names going in. And so I always thought, oh, she's got to be outclassed by this. She's got to be intimidated. And she was.

Then when you realize, OK, her acting background was really little. Yeah, she really had done very little. And the one thing she was known for Torch Song Trilogy is a completely it's the 180 degree opposite discipline from sitcoms. When you're doing theater, as you know, the script is set in stone. It doesn't change. And that's for someone like Estelle, who it turns out was having the beginning of physical memory problems, although they didn't know that, but also had stage fright. Yeah. Theater is a better place to be.

Because you would think it wouldn't be because it's live and you're going to be nervous. But you learn that script and you're done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you can add flourishes and bits on top of it because you know you know that script, Cole. Yeah, yeah. Well, sitcoms, it's the complete opposite. You get a script on Monday. You do a table read. The writers go change it. They give you new pages on Tuesday. Some of it's changed. Some of it hasn't. You have to figure out what to incorporate where. They tell you, put this line there, put that line there. And the other three were able to do that because they've been using that muscle for decades. Yes. She...

freaked out and then stage fright feeds on itself and so once you think you're going to screw up you do screw up yeah that makes you even more so she had these problems with stage fright and with not having the same training as they did from the beginning and yet that makes me appreciate her so much more because you look at how amazing she was yes that even though she was sometimes cheating and reading the lines out of her palm or that she you know it turns out that that night they had to work late because she just couldn't get this scene and whatever she

We don't see that on screen. We see an amazing performance and it makes me really respect her. It's true. And I wonder, maybe you know the answer or maybe I'm just hypothesizing, but by way of explanation, one thing that scares me about, I love TV and film and I hope to do more and more of it. But to your point, I wonder if part of her fear as a theater actress was in not understanding that the writers are going to leave on Tuesday and rewrite and give you new pages. I wonder if there's any, oh, but

I just needed to do it better. I just needed to prove myself. Otherwise they would have kept those pages. Do you know what I'm saying? Sometimes actors like that be Arthur was a little bit like that. I remember that she would hold on to something that the writers would often to rewrite. And she's, she'd be like, no, I'm going to make it work. And she would see, that's my thing too. I, that's what I'm getting to. So many times I know that I need the audience and,

And especially I agree with her because you see it, dare I say, sometimes in Death Becomes Her, I have to do a lot of undercutting and subtle. Brilliantly. Well, thank you. But you know what I mean. Soda voce jokes. Soda voce jokes. And I used to say with Marco, we'd have discussions because he's also a sitcom writer. And wrote for Golden Palace. Yes. And God bless him for giving me this grace because he got it. I said, listen, I know you're thinking you have to write this joke.

differently your writing is perfect what I need is a microphone wait till we get on stage and I need the audience and trust me and he did and then you know what I'm saying and that's a hard thing to do because you have to have faith that something that you say not projecting is going to land correct and that must be a scary experience as an actor because you're you know you're saying it and you think it could land with a thud

Yeah. Yeah. And I, it's such a dance of communication and trust. Right. So thank you for going on that. No, I get it. In fact, one of the, to go further on that tangent, there's one moment, I think I mentioned it in the book that I always, always stands out to me because it never made sense to me. And now I learned the story why this, the episode with Trudy and Francis, the one who are the friend who fakes her own death and whatever. So in the very beginning, we know that Dorothy is jealous of Trudy. They have a rivalry. And in real life,

Bea was intimidated when beautiful actresses would come on because the show spent so much time calling Bea ugly. Oh, yes. And which she hated. Yeah. It was even more of an insult to her when a beautiful woman would come on set and the character would be treated as beautiful and Dorothy's ugly. Yes. So Bea had that in her cross. So I don't think she was probably thrilled with the episode anyway. Nothing to do with Anne Francis, just with how she was treated. Yeah. Which episode is this? This is the Trudy. The tennis one. Till Death Do We Volley. Oh.

Oh, oh, oh, yes, yes, yes. Got it, got it, got it. Okay. And so there was a line, and I remember the writer telling me this, and it's in the book who the writer is, I don't remember who it was, saying that there was a line in there in the beginning where Dorothy is plotting how she's going to best Trudy and how she's going to do it better. And she says something like, remember...

remember, Trudy, we're going to be wearing tennis dresses. In other words, the implication is that Dorothy thinks, Trudy, I'm going to look better than you in a tennis dress. But the line didn't work because Anne Francis is gorgeous. Yeah. And not that B wouldn't look good in a tennis dress, but there's no joke there. Right. Yeah. So and B, because it was something personal to her,

was like no I'm gonna make that work and it never did including in the episode if you watch it it doesn't work it's interesting too because there are times when jokes fall flat and the the editing lets it stay like no like somebody will say a joke the audience doesn't laugh yeah I feel like that wouldn't happen it wouldn't but most times if you're not Bea Arthur yeah you'll let

the writers change it if it falls with a thud. And then like shows like Will and Grace are brilliant in how many alts they have prepared, alternate jokes. So if something doesn't work or even if something does work, they want to try another one. So they have all these options when they're editing. But that's great. But Bea, you know, never did it differently. And she would keep doing it and she would keep saying, like enunciating it more, thinking maybe the audience will get it this time. So she would end up saying, yes, tennis,

dresses and then they would come to her and be like but it didn't work and she'd be like is this audience stupid what don't they hear but she just wouldn't she wouldn't accept that it wasn't a funny joke because Anne Francis was beautiful I joke with my fellow actors about that backstage because I obviously I think the opposite like let the audience come to you like lay off of it but we always joke listen this is what I want you to do if they're not laughing just lean in harder really shut them down their throats get desperate

I can't desperate. Girl, are you a yo-yo dieter? I don't know what you mean. Listen, you know what yo-yo dieting is. It's where you diet, you lose weight, but you gain it all back, plus a few extra pounds. Then later you lose it and you regain it again and again. It's like a yo-yo, you know, it's like a yo-yo. But let's stop talking about my life.

No, listen, kiddos, it's dangerous, right? Studies show, though, that that can increase your risk of heart attack, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and other health problems. So, listen, breaking free of your yo-yo diet pattern is a main reason doctors created Lean. We love this. So Lean is a supplement. It is not an injection. And you don't need a prescription. The science behind Lean is all about the science.

Also impressive, Cheesecakes. It's studied natural ingredients target weight loss in three powerful ways. One, lean helps maintain healthy blood sugar. Two, it helps control appetite and cravings. And three, it helps burn fat by converting fat into energy. And honestly, who doesn't need more of that? I do. And you know what I love about this too? Like you said, I love that there's no...

prescription needed. Yes. And like you said, it's not an injection. Totally. Find me up. So anyway, listen, if you're like us and you're tired of losing weight and gaining it back, if you want to lose meaningful weight at a healthy pace, Lean was created for you. Let us get you started, Cheesecakes, with 20% off when you enter GoldenGirls20 at TakeLean.com. You heard her. That's code GoldenGirls20 at TakeLean.com. But have the cheesecake. Every now and then. Exactly.

True crime fans will love Crime House: True Crime Stories, a Crime House original podcast. Every Monday, you'll experience the most notorious true crime cases from that week in history, all linked by a common theme. From serial killers to disappearances,

to unsolved murders and so much more. Follow and listen to Crime House True Crime Stories, an Odyssey podcast in partnership with Crime House Studios. Available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. Girl, Quince is back. Can I tell you that thanks to Quince, I've come to enjoy a little bit of luxury at like a price I can afford. You love it like you love me. It's true. That much. And who doesn't?

I do love my jewels.

And it's so affordable. Quince prices their items 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. I send everybody to their website. Go look at how beautiful the stuff is and how affordable it is. You will buy 10 things. No, you have really upped your wardrobe. Thank you. No joke. He really does use this, as do I. Yes. And one thing I love about Quince, see, they partner directly with top factories and it cuts out the cost of the middleman. So those savings, that's how they do it, folks. The savings from that is passed on to us. And they only work

with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices. That is really, truly important. That matters to me. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash goldengirls for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash goldengirls to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash goldengirls goldengirls

Well, I'm so curious what it was like to interview the other three actresses. Each was a story in itself. I've told these stories before and they're really long, so I don't know if you want me to go through all of it. I'm hoping that this will be the first of many times you will appear on this podcast. Okay. So, as I said, I didn't get to meet Estelle. The other three, I ended up, just the way it worked out, I was in their living rooms for each one of them. Wow. Who had the nicest living room? It depends upon...

It depends on your taste. So Rue McClanahan lived in a big New York apartment that had a backyard in Beekman Place, which when does that happen? Oh, wow. She was on the ground floor and the backyard was part of her apartment. She lived in Beekman Place? Yeah. How anti-mame of her. I think it was Beekman. It was that area. I forget what the address was, Beekman. But yeah.

And B was living in a temporary house. So I didn't get to see the famous 2000 Old Ranch Roadhouse, the one that sold recently. At the time, her kids were renovating her kitchen because B loved to entertain in her kitchen. She had a couch in the kitchen. It was an oversized kitchen. She would cook and entertain friends. I love that. So her kitchen was her darling and her sons were renovating the house. So they had rented her a house.

That was on the same street as Betty. Oh, my God. And when I went to B's house, I said, oh, you know, you're on the same street as Betty. And she was like, I am. She knew she was on the same street as Betty. It was funny. But...

Everything was not hers. It was all rental furniture. Oh, Betty who? Yeah, Betty who? I'm sorry, what? Everything was not hers. It was all rental furniture. So it had no character to it, but it didn't say anything about Bea. Yeah. Betty's living room. It was like Betty's soul had been put up on the walls. It was butter yellow and cheery and looked 70s like it hadn't been touched since the 70s. Oh my God. And flower paintings and her golden retriever Pontiac who had failed out of seeing eye dog school because he was too sweet.

and too kissy lay on my feet as I'm enduring Betty. And I'm sitting there in this butter yellow and wood paneling living room and I'm looking at Betty and I'm petting this dog and I'm thinking, this is one, you know, you have those surreal moments where you're like, how did this happen? How did I get here? That was definitely a how did I get here? Oh my God. What neighborhood did they live in? Brentwood.

Oh, my God. Yes. So it was which is right two streets away from the Golden Girls house, the exterior. Oh, is that right? Wait, let me ask you a question. Maybe you'll know the answer to this. This is in the episode that we're going to do today. In the scenes, the exterior scenes, when they would actually drive the car into the driveway. Did they film that at the actual house? Mostly. OK. What happened was that when Disney World built that Disney MGM studio. Yeah. They.

really pulled a fast one with being able to wanting to be able to say as seen on TV like they wanted to pretend that shows were shot there even though no shows were shot in Orlando in Orlando right yeah so they built the replica of the Golden Girls house the exterior and they tried to force the show to use screenplays

Exterior is now filmed there. However, the foliage wasn't right because it was Florida foliage. There were other problems with the shots they sent to the producers. They kept filming Exterior, sending them to the producers, and the producers kept rejecting them. And Disney kept getting more and more insistent, like, you have to use some of these things. So they were able to use shots during a rainstorm because you don't get...

get torrential rainstorms here. So that actually worked. Yeah. Yeah. So they filmed during a torrential rainstorm. So there's very little filmed in Florida that was actually used on the air. Most of the stuff you see was not a lot. They didn't film a lot at the actual house. You occasionally see a car. Yeah. This next song, we have a blue sedan. Yes.

Speeding towards the house. But it didn't happen very often. So what was it like to interview Bea Arthur? Oh my God, that's the most amazing story. In my book, and this show that I'm now doing, I spent an evening with Bea Arthur, and it was brutal. Brutal, but great. Well, it's great now, and I talk a lot about how I wish I could have enjoyed it more in the moment, because she just hated me. I must have reminded her of Betty White. What was your name? She called me Peter. She knew my name was Patrick, but

She called me you who. But I'll get to that in a minute. So tell us everything. So you are still going to relate to this. Oh, God. It's a little long, but you will tell me. I think every detail is going to make you cringe in just the right way. Because I am an idiot in this story. Yeah. So when I'm looking for all of the actors, I was spending six weeks in L.A. because my husband was doing a game show there. And so it's perfect timing. Oh, my God. I can research my book and we have a hotel room and whatever. So I'm going to do all the research to this spring of 2006.

And so I thought, OK, I'll talk to Rue when I get back to New York. I can always do that. Let's focus on B and Betty. And so I called Betty's person. I had her agent or whatever. And Betty was so busy, even at age 84, that when I called her in February, when I got into town, they were like, she has an hour on May 9th. Yeah. I was going home on like May 5th. So I was like, OK, I'll take it.

And they held me to that hour. Now, I talked to her a little more after that, so it worked out. But that's how busy Betty was. I mean, that's so crazy because it's like if she starts to tell a story that you don't want and you only get 60 minutes. But she doesn't tell stories you don't want. The thing about Betty is she was so brilliant that she spoke in perfect sound bites and perfect stories. And so...

Every time she told a story, I'm like, cha-ching, that goes in the book, cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching. So an hour with her was like three with anybody else. Yeah. But they did literally. God love her. Like an hour and two minutes on my recorder, you can see the time elapsed. Her assistant came in and was like, that's all the time Betty has for today. And that usually doesn't happen.

Wow. Usually when you get somebody talking, they're like, okay, I was lying about having a hard out. I can talk. But she had a hard out. She had to go do stuff. Yeah. So I ended up talking to her again later. But B, I didn't know what agent there was for her. This is before IMDb Pro. Yeah. And the way that you would get to celebrities is you'd call SAG and you'd call their hotline and ask. Yeah.

And so they gave me I remember the woman saying, OK, I have a referral number. I didn't know what that meant. I wasn't an agent. She said she doesn't have an agent listed. I have a referral number. OK, I'll call it. So I called it and I get the voicemail. Hello. I can't come to the phone. And I'm like, holy shit, it's her home number. And I was not prepared for that. No, no. Imagine if she had answered. No, I know. Well, she had. So.

What turns out, I've learned, was completely the wrong thing to do. Yeah. I got all goody-goody. She hates goody-goody. Oh, yeah. So I was like, Miss Arthur, my name is Jim, and I'm writing this book. And so I leave a message.

And I don't hear back. I think I tried again and left another sniveling message. And this was just the week where California passed their law of no handsets while you're driving. No handheld phones. And so I was really paranoid about it. And I'm driving down Santa Monica Boulevard and the phone rings and I had put her number into the phone and it says, Be Arthur. I'm like, oh my God, what do I do? If I don't pick up, she may never call back. So I pick up and I'm like risking a ticket. But I'm also like trying to somehow if I whisper, the cops won't see me. So I sound like even more of a dork.

I sound like even more of a dork talker. Hello, Ms. Arthur. My name is Kate. Oh, God. And she's like, honey, what? I can't hear you. What? And then...

She said it the first time she called back. She said, honey, it wasn't a very happy time for me. And I also feel like I've talked about it enough. And, you know, there's ways to counter those arguments. Yeah. Happy time. I didn't want to get into it. But I mean, I do know her mother died during season one. Yeah. Her husband had left her shortly before the show and she was never...

really over it. She did have friction with Betty. Yeah. I think she was over talking about it. However, I did manage to say in that first phone call, well, I have a call into Betty White and I'm going to talk to her. Maybe that helped. Of course it did. Yeah. And at the end of the call, Bea said, well, honey, call me back next week and we'll talk more.

And this went on, this kind of phone game where I'd call her two or three times and then she'd call me once and I'd call her two or three times. Went on for like a month and a half. Oh my God. Trust building. It's exactly what it was. And the thing I learned about her, to cut to the part of the punchline, is that her default was not to trust people. Because whereas...

One of the reasons she and Betty did have issues is they were polar opposites. Betty had a sweet grandmotherly exterior and balls of steel. And B, people thought she had balls of steel because she was tall and tough looking, but she was very vulnerable, easily hurt, a mush ball. So she used that exterior as a shield to bat people away.

But if you stayed long enough, you might see through it and see the real her. And then she might fall for you. Yeah. But the default was to get rid of you. And so luckily, it was exactly what it was, a trust building exercise over a couple of weeks. But I kept making the mistake of being happy. And she would be like, honey, you know, she just wanted me to talk plainly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be real. And so finally, there was one moment where I was in the Beverly Hills Public Library killing time between.

between interviews and this was when wi-fi was not readily available all over the world and they had wi-fi that's why i was there and i'm sitting in this giant room i couldn't be further from an exit i'm in the middle of this giant room at a big long table and the phone rings and it says b and i was like i have to take it because again i don't never know if she's going to stop yeah yeah my computer's there i didn't want to leave my stuff i didn't what am i going to do and so i was like

And then again, she's like, honey, I can't hear you. So I have to talk louder. I'm like, hi, B. And at this point, people around the library are pointing at me being like, what the fuck? Yeah. Why are you taking a phone call in the library? Yeah. And then they're coming over and like somebody's standing there yelling at me, hang up. You can't be on the phone in the library. Hang up. And I'm holding the phone like this, trying to turn away and talk to B. And I try to go to the window, which is far away anyway, and the windows don't open. So I'm like leaning into the window trying to talk to B. And.

And nothing's working. She can't hear me. She's getting frustrated. Somebody's screaming directly in my ear. You can't be on the phone in the library. This is actually what sealed the deal that got me the interview. It was a complete accident. I thought I held my hand over the phone. I apparently didn't do it well enough. Oh, no. And I screamed at the person who was in my face, right in their face. Fuck you, it's Bea Arthur. And they walked away like I'm a crazy person. Yeah. And I pick up the phone, put it back to my ear, and she's laughing her head off. Yeah. Yeah.

And once she heard that that was the real me, she said, that's when she said to me, honey, call me next week. I'm going to Chicago for the weekend. Call me next week. We'll set up a time. Oh, my God. Yeah. But also you had her back. Like you. That was pure respect that wasn't done in a in what she might deem a sycophant way. And it wasn't even meant for her to hear. Like, yeah, I did enough that she realized that I was trying to.

do it on the slide again though went a little bit too sycophantic when I said goodbye to her I said B I look forward to talking to you next week and she said I don't and then hung up but the next week when I talked to her she said come to the Paley Festival when we're gonna the Paley Festival every year does panels about

current TV shows but back then they used to do every year one classic show and my luck that year was Golden Girls no way so I'm like this is gonna be free stuff for my book I'm just gonna watch this panel so B said I'm doing the Paley Festival panel come backstage before the show and say hello because even though I had met her when Frank had her on his show and stuff like that my husband she wouldn't remember so I wanted to have a face with the name so I go backstage before the show at Paley and this was again now we're getting into April and I'm leaving in May

And I'm looking around and there's no B. I see Rue talking to people. I see Betty going from, there's all these little cafe tables. I see Betty going from table to table saying to people, B is so sick. Her doctor said to her, don't you dare get out of bed. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, Betty's full of shit. She's covering for B, which is what she does. She always tries to make people comfortable. And she didn't want to own up to the fact that she was trying to make B look better. So B was not there. But I eventually did get to go to B's house. I go to B's house. It's this rented house.

We sit in her living room and she has her bare feet up on the coffee table. She was always barefoot. Those baked potatoes. I'm telling you, the baked potatoes. We talk about them in season one. Yes. Those feet, which were, you know, because she walked around barefoot all the time, were not the most appealing. But she had them up on the coffee table. And unfortunately, for the first like hour, it was like getting grunts of her answers. It was like, yes, no, I don't remember.

And then she did say, you know, are you sure we can't talk Maud? I'd rather talk about that. She eventually did, of course, open up because there's stuff in the book. There's a funny moment where she said, you can hear it on my tape recorder. She says,

It's quarter to four. Judge Judy's on in 15 minutes. And I was like, she loves Judge Judy. She was on Judge Judy. Yes, yes. Because Judge Judy is just like her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Angry at people. Yes. So I remember thinking to myself, it took me two months to get here. I'm not leaving so she can watch Judge Judy. I'm pretending I didn't hear that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you hear it like 4.15. I guess I can miss Judge Judy for one day. So she had made me promise that I would stay and have a drink with her. A drink. Oh.

with her at the end of the day. That was the condition for coming over. Was she drinking double warm Citron vodka? Well, so we finished talking at about five o'clock and I had to get my rental car back to the Hertz on La Cienega from Brentwood by six o'clock because I was flying out. This was right before I was leaving. And I was like, I'm not going to make it. What am I going to do? So I was like, I have to make this drink quick. So

I'm packing up some stuff and I hear her from the kitchen calling out, you who? Like, oh, that's right. She's forgotten my name. She's forgotten my name. And I come in the kitchen and she opens this. The only cabinet that's really well stocked is this giant liquor cabinet. And she's like, what do you want? And I'm thinking, what can I down really fast and then get behind the wheel and drive this car back? So I was like some white wine.

And so she's like, okay, the guy who shops for me buys this white wine. I really like it. And she puts it down. Oh, that's not the one. She puts it back and grabs another bottle of the exact same wine. No, that's not the one. Puts it back, grabs another bottle of the exact same wine. That's it. That's the wine. I was like, okay. So I'm rummaging around in the drawers for a corkscrew because she doesn't know where anything is. And that's another moment where you have that moment.

I'm rummaging around in B. Arthur's Kitchen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I realized it's screw top wine, which at the time, most wines were not screw top. Oh, yeah, right. Totally. Now you can find that. But it was a bad sign that it was screw top wine. I learned, by the way, in my restaurant days, we called that Stelvin closures. Oh. It's a Stelvin closure of the screw top. The Golden Girl deep dive podcast. That is, see, you learn something in every episode. Let me tell you, back when I worked at a steakhouse and we sold a lot of wine and a lot of them were changing the steaks.

delve enclosure you know like when you open a bottle of wine at a table there's like a ceremony of like how you do they tried to invent a ceremony for unscrewing it that's true it's so much less dramatic let me tell you something though I don't I don't drink anymore but the let me just tell you a box of Franzia Burgundy oh yeah yeah yeah it's really good box one is the best wine no but just but the

Not all of them, but bronzy and burgundy. Yeah, I am not a wine snob by any means. Bronzy and burgundy. Yeah. Kids, get your drink on. Sorry, I interrupted the master. No, no. That's okay. So she takes this bottle of wine, which, by the way, was not a regular-sized bottle. It was one of those bigger ones. Yeah. She takes out of the cabinet the two biggest balloon goblets I've ever seen.

If you ever watch Cougar Town, remember the wine glass? Yes, yes, yes. It was two big Carls. Totally. And so she takes out two big Carls and she hands me the bottle and I empty the entire bottle into the two glasses. I am drinking half of a giant bottle of wine. Yeah, that's two and a half, two and three quarter glasses of wine. And that I have to down in like 20 minutes and leave. Sure.

And so we sit back down in the living room and it's time to make small talk. But the problem is we've talked Golden Girls for like three hours. I don't want to get her pissed off about Golden Girls. And so we're making small talk. And this is again, I'm giving you all the details. This is a long version. I'm sorry. It's so good. Every detail. I don't know how we got on.

old films. One of the things she had told me is that she, you know, she really had an issue with being tall and that's why she didn't admit to having been in the Marines. So that's the deal with that. Yeah, she didn't admit to it. But it was real. I mean, according to her son, it was real. That's real. Yeah. But also,

five nine and a half it's not that tall although that's what she said maybe she was taller and that's why she didn't wear heels of course so but she i remember her telling me in different parts of the interview that oh i always wished as an actress i could instead of being me i could be like you know little idol of pino like a this short little floozy who runs a roadhouse and like you know in these noir movies like she wanted to be like short and girly and so i knew she loved classic film and we ended up talking about classic film somehow well what she really loved even

even more than classic film is seeing the stars of classic film getting humiliated in hag pictures. What's a picture is like whatever happened to baby Jane. So remember that started the trend where all of these golden age actresses would come back and do these cheap horror movies. Yeah. Yeah. And so I told her about one that I only remembered as like a fever dream because it was so weird when I was in college in Philadelphia one night late at night and on UHF, I tuned in and saw half of this movie that was with

with Lana Turner well past her heyday in the 70s. It was British made, so it's very obscure. And she played an American living in England who had a son and also had all these white Siamese cats. And she abused her son and doted on the cats. And so the son grew up totally twisted and messed up. And he finally gets out from her grasp and he marries and has a baby. And it looks like everything's going to be okay. And then one of the cats kills the baby. Ha ha ha!

And the son snaps and goes after the mother. And one of the last scenes of the thing, of the movie, was the son forcing Lana at gunpoint to lap milk out of a saucer off the floor. Like a cat. And...

I think Nicole Kidman has to do that in Baby Girl. I found out, by the way, the movie expert on Frank's radio show, the moment I told him that, he was like, it's Persecution, 1974. So I've now seen it. I own it on DVD. But when I told Bea about that, the moment I got to the part about Lana lapping the bed,

She reached out and grabbed my forearm. She hadn't touched me yet. And she's like, I must have a copy of that. And so I asked this guy on Frank's radio show, Dennis Dermody, who's wonderful, to make me a bootleg copy on VHS, which I then mailed to Bea. Oh, my God. And I didn't realize she was starting to get sick with cancer then. So I like to think that maybe it made her happy when she was sick. She could turn that on.

So that's what we end up talking about. Meanwhile, okay, I'm looking at my watch. It's getting to be like 10 to 6. And I'm like, how am I going to get back to La Cienega? I am so screwed. I'm leaving tomorrow. I can't return this car. There's no late night drop off. Yeah. And so Bea left the room for a minute and I'm calling Hertz and I get them on the phone. And I'm like, you have to stay open later.

I can't explain, but I have to return this car late. But in that voice, hi, this is Jan. I know. I was. It was my goody-goody voice, but I also didn't want B to hear me. So I was like, you have to stay open late. You want me to be Arthur's house? That's the punchline. Oh, no.

I'm so sorry. So I'm like, you have to stay open late. I can't explain right now. I just need you to stay open until 6 o'clock. No, 6.15, 6.30. 6.15, 6.30. Just make it 6.30, please. And they're like, no, we're not staying open beyond 6 o'clock. We close. And I said, I'm with Bea Arthur. And there was a pause. And the woman said, 6.15. Oh. And so I just made it there at 6.15. Oh.

Drunk out of your mind. I'm not going to say I drove drunk. I drove a little tipsy. Yeah. No, it takes a while to kick in. Right. Exactly. Yeah. As I'm leaving B's place, I am, you know, I feel like we've bonded. Yeah. Over the Lana thing. And, you know, again, you spend enough time with her, you get to see the real her. I was breaking through. I could feel it.

And I said one thing to her. I said, I'm going to test her to myself. This is like a little evil of me. So as I was packing up the computer, I said to her something like, oh, B, I'm so sorry I didn't get to meet you that night at the Paley Fest. I hear how sick you are. And I saw the look on her face, this guilty look on her face. And I thought, well, that tells me everything I need to know. So I finished packing up and we're standing up and I did something I hadn't done. I didn't do with Rue. I didn't do with Betty or anybody else. I said to her, can I give you a hug?

And she looked taken aback for a minute and she was very stiff. And she hugged me and then I felt her melt.

Like there was a moment of stiffness and then it was like, that's a metaphor for the entire day. She was just like, I had broken through. She trusted me. And so I'm walking out the door and I was like so proud of myself. And I'm 10 paces out the door, front door. And she's standing at the front door, ready to do a perfect Dorothy take and slam the door. And she says, you who? And I turn around and I look and she says, I'll tell you another thing. It wasn't sick that night either. And then slams the door. Yeah.

So it was perfect. But you see the awkwardness and all of the stuff that it took to get there. So I have a feel for you. Oh, my God. And I was like this kid who I just like you. I just wanted to do the right thing. I just and like by the end of it, I was just so beaten down. Yes. And she does not tolerate fools. If she thinks you're a fool, she's not going to like you. She doesn't tolerate gum chewing. No. She doesn't tolerate hats. No.

Oh, well, I'm screwed. Men wearing hats. Oh, shit. Men wearing hats. Sorry. Probably anyone wearing a baseball hat, but men wearing like baseball hats. Yeah. She had weird pet peeves. Yeah. You wouldn't even know you'd done it. If you showed up on set chewing gum or wearing a baseball hat, she'd hate you for the rest of time. Right. And you wouldn't even know why. But the hugging thing, that explains a lot of what we've seen of the guest stars, that she has to hug where she's like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. But.

But when we talked to Christopher Sieber, there's some movie, hag film with Mae West. Oh. And I have to find out. But he said, like, she's just really old. Well, is it Sextet? Is that with George Hamilton in it? I think so. No, there's one with Tom Selleck. Tom Selleck might have been in Myra Brackenridge. No, I think it's Sextet. But you see her doing all her Mae West-ism, but she's like. Yeah, she's like 80. She's in her 80s and she's like. Yeah. That's the Sextet.

It's sex death. It's sex death. Yeah. It is. Well, I hate to be the party pooper, but we have to end there for today. No. Oh, God. But can we- We have more, though. I have a whole portfolio. Well, this is what I'm saying. See, I told you the B story is just so long. Oh, it's so good. No, well, I love that in this, this B story is your A story. But wait, can this be just the beginning? Of course it can. Will you come back over and over and over again? Of course. Or even if it's over Zoom, because I have a whole dossier. No, same. I love it. I have a million- Let me ask you in both voices. Damn. Damn.

Jim, this is Jan. It's Jan, Jim. I was wondering, thank you, Patrick. I was Jim Colucci.

Well, Jimmy, we love you. Thank you. Obviously, the book Golden Girls forever. Everyone's going to everyone's already has it or they're getting it or whatever. I hope you're going to come back over and over and over again. We have as many times as you'll as you'll come and be with us. I'm happy to. We're going to start calling you God. Is that? I know. I know. I know. Might be a little weird. Well, you're Italian. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. All right. We love you and we will see you next time. I'll see you next time. See you next time. Bye. Bye.

Oh, Cheesecakes, thank you so much for checking out our interview with the amazing Jim Colucci. Grab a copy of his book, Golden Girls Forever, wherever you get your books. And stay tuned for, we hope, many, many, many more of these conversations with Jim. And, of course, we'll be back next week with our regular recap and deep dive episode. And thank you for being a friend by telling a friend about our podcast.

I figured I could get away with that this week because Mother Cheesecake isn't in the studio with me right now. All right, Cheesecake, we love you, and we will see you next week. Bye. Wayfair's President's Day clearance is on. Right now through February 18th, get Wayfair's best deal since Black Friday with fast and easy shipping straight to your door. Save up to 70% off now at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.