#866 - Jesse James West - How To Stay Disciplined When Times Get Tough
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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Jesse James West. He's a YouTuber and an athlete. Fitness is supposed to be enjoyable and so is creating content about your favorite hobbies. But what about the dark side you don't get to see in your favorite influencers? How low were the moments that they got to and what are the lessons to take away from that?

Expect to learn how to overcome the fear and judgment of others, what running every day for 30 days does to your physique, Jesse's experience from his first time competing in bodybuilding, the current state of male body dysmorphia, what it was like spending an entire day with the liver king, the hardest challenge that Jesse has ever done, and much more.

People of the UK, I'm coming home for one night only. Thursday, the 28th of November at the Eventim Apollo, home to BBC's Live at the Apollo. I will be performing live on stage. This will be the final time that you can see my self-discovery show live before I completely kill it and put it into the grave. And tickets are already very limited. We've sold more than 50% and they're selling fast. So you need to get yours now by going to chriswilliamson.live.com.

That's chriswilliamson.live slash London. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Jesse James West. Where does Stay Relentless come from? The relentless part, that comes from my father, 100%, where he...

Definitely ingrained in my head, being relentless. I feel like without saying, stay relentless to me, just sort of by his actions throughout life. And I believe that as I have gotten older, as I played sports my entire life, and obviously not now, but from 11 years old all the way until 18 years old playing sports, I've

I discovered the whole nonstop, continuously grinding. And the more work you put in, the more you get out. And I feel like

That's sort of defined who I am. And I feel that that's something that I've always aspired to be, is to be the hardest worker in the room. And to do that, you need to be relentless. I mean, like you look at the dictionary definition, I'm sort of explaining it and it really stuck with me. And I was like, I feel like this is, this is something that I embody and also can sort of motivate others to become hopefully. What's your dad got to do with that? My dad. So my dad, he's a blue collar guy. He is a,

His name's John. So John is a blue collar man. He has worked many jobs. He's cut wood in the winter and made me load it next to him and stuff. So he has always had a lot on his plate and just never really complained or anything. He just always did it, did it, did it, get it done, get it done, get it done. And never had an excuse either. And I was like, sort of growing up around him was very much

he believed that that's how I should be as well. So one by showing me in two, by always like telling me like, if there's something that needs to get done, you don't wait, you do it now. If you are trying to be great at something, you go practice, you get better and you will be great. Like it was very like tough love and stuff, but he always was, he had a million, he had five rental properties, uh,

all at once that he was a landlord too. He fixed everything in the house, rebuilt the entire house on top of a normal nine to five that he wakes up at like four in the morning, driving an hour into the city, doing work. So it was like witnessing that firsthand

It was almost like I grew up with no excuse to be made. So I feel like that really ingrained in my head from a young age, just being relentless and like, that's just who I am. And it's like, I can't not be that way. It took a while for me at my sport growing up was cricket, which is a much more gentlemanly. You play cricket? Yeah. That was my game for a decade. Uh, but it's also not only gentlemanly, but quite gentle as well. Uh, it's very much an art form. It's

almost exclusively about skill. S&C for it is primarily just for injury prevention. So the line of the hard work, what you put in is what you get out, that line wasn't really made clear to me until I got into the world of business and university. Even at school, I don't know, I just didn't, I kind of wish that I did, but I didn't draw the line between hard work equals good performance. I'm aware that that's a very basic realization.

It didn't come to me until I was much older. What does being an 11 to 18, 19 year old lacrosse? I play lacrosse. Yeah. What does that philosophy when you're still a child feel like? You know,

It was very difficult to comprehend as a kid. Looking back, it all makes sense. And I'm like, I have no regrets on my relationship with my dad, my relationship with coaches and sports. But playing lacrosse, I was fortunately very good at it right away. And I feel like whenever I was good at something...

definitely my family was like, we gotta, we gotta push him the most he possibly can. And specifically my mom pushed me a lot, but like my dad definitely pushed me a lot. It was like, you see those dads on like a documentary shows about like

a football player, a classic sports dad. That's just like, well, it sounds to me the best. He's gonna be the greatest. He's gonna work harder than everybody. And it was very much that, which, but I did enjoy, I loved lacrosse. So I didn't see it as a problem. So it was, it was sort of like, he's inducing that, that sort of relentless vibe to my life. And like,

practice and then my love for the sport also coming together. It worked very well from a young age. So like I saw no problem with it. My mom saw no problem with driving the passion of working together. Like just it met well and the synergy was there of his ideation and my love for the sport.

And then as time went on and I got older, you know, I discovered the gym. I really fell in love with bodybuilding. I saw, I watched people like Christian Guzman on YouTube and OG YouTuber in the fitness world. And I was like, you know, I love lacrosse. I want to play. I want to play pro right now or in the future. I want to play pro and I have the aspirations to be the best in the country. But part of me, like my, my, my inner soul isn't being fulfilled because

And as you get older, I feel like you discover that more and more. And as I approach 15, 16, 17, I realized like maybe lacrosse isn't going to be my end goal. Maybe there's something more for me like fitness or doing YouTube. Like I really did have that desire from a young age.

Let me add this. I made YouTube videos since I was 12. You look up Spartan Strings online right now, and I am on the internet. I'm like, hi, I'm Jesse James. I'm like little boy on the internet. But I had aspirations outside of lacrosse that just kept getting bigger and bigger. And the problem was that my dad, his aspiration was to push me in lacrosse and push me to my absolute limits.

waking up early for workouts, chugging mass gainer shakes. You got to gain weight. You got to get bigger. You got to be stronger than everybody else. Out there in the rain, the snow, the hail, throwing the ball to me. When was home for you? Home was New Jersey. Right. Okay. And it was around the, we're in the boondocks in the fricking woods. He's tossing the ball. It's pouring. It's snowing. Doesn't matter what the weather is. And we're getting the reps in because like, I do have this love. So I don't see it as a too much of a problem, but then

there's just a little bit too much force from him to do it where it almost kind of pushed that love away from the sport. And I was like, I just want to, I just want to bodybuild. I want to lift. I want to do these things. And you know, it developed into what it is today. So I'm like super grateful of every aspect of where my life went and,

But it kind of, we had our struggles and stuff of a relationship because of the love of the sport dying and his push becoming more. So it was like a pendulum. He feels you pulling away. It's almost like being in a relationship with someone and they're pulling away and you're continuing to push. And honestly, even coaches started feeling me pull away and then I got the pressure from them too. So it was like this very odd thing to grow up with. When I was 15 years old, I committed to Lehigh University, which is like a very prestigious academic program.

university and I committed when I was 15. Like they were like, you are, you're going to be on a 90% scholarship in four years from now. So I'm like 15 years old. I'm going on college visits. I went to Loyola Rutgers. I was looking at Virginia. I was looking at

Lehigh, obviously I went to UDEL. I like, I'm like pitching myself to these coaches as a 15 year old. My mom's driving me there. Like, this is so cool. And I'm like, this is awesome. But like, also I'm negotiating with a 45 year old coach at 15. It's a very odd. Are you quite mature? I feel like I had to be because like,

I literally would be going into business meetings one-on-one with a coach in a button up at 15 years old, basically saying like, why I'm trying to hold together and try to understand. I'm like, what the hell is going on? But I'm trying to pitch myself to this coach of why I should be on his team in four years from now. They got rid of that rule. Like NCA came in and was like, this is ridiculous. You can't scout children. Literally. It's like,

too, it's just too far. Now they have to wait till their, their September of their junior year to even talk to them. What age is that? 17. Right. So a good, I feel like there's a big difference between 15 and 17. Oh dude, yeah. So like that was a very interesting aspect of my life where it definitely looking back now helps me drastically in business meetings now. Like,

I have no discomfort in a business for the best part of a decade, literally. So I'm only 24. So like for the last nine years, I'm pitching myself to companies saying, oh, why, why should that you give me a higher scholarship than the next, than the next place? And so I landed a scholarship at 15 for, let's say about $200,000 ish for a four year period. Like it's a verbal commitment. You're not actually signed. You can leave, but like you're shunned if you leave, like, why would you leave this opportunity? Yeah.

Especially given that you're getting education essentially for free. Literally. And like my parents, you know, they're middle class, middle upper class by now. And this was something like you're either going to community or you're going to get a scholarship, which is nothing wrong with community college, but like they wanted me to go play sports. So they were like kind of like dangling in front of me, like you need to go do this. And I thought that was the best path for me. And obviously things changed as I'm sure we'll get into, but yeah.

Things were very interesting from like 15 to 17, 18. I feel like I grew up 10 years in those two years and obviously it led me here, but very unique. What is negotiating? I think a lot of people, even those that aren't still 15, can resonate with this sort of

having multiple desires at once. So I have one thing which I may be very good at and the world gives me recognition for, or perhaps I have a job title or maybe that provides for me or my family in one way or another. And then I've got this other thing that's kind of my secret passion. I almost feel a little bit ashamed about weirdly because it's not the main thing and I've committed so much time to it. So I've got sunk cost fallacy into the old thing. What have you learned about

balancing those two and the sort of split brain existence that you have there? I discovered a lot once I actually got to college. You know, through those years from 15 to 18, it was like growing up quick. And then by the time I was 18, it was very much in your face. This is reality now. And now instead of this idea of I want to go do this thing, but I'm contracted by a lacrosse team to go perform.

That didn't exist beforehand, but now it's in place. I am at practice. I am at, I'm in front of the coach. He's telling me that I need to do these things. I'm in front of a tutor because I'm failing out of a class that I can't handle. And with all that on my plate, which many people can relate to there, everyone's busy. Everyone's everyone's schedules hard. Everyone's trying to their best, but maybe not succeeding yet. You know, they want to be there. And then you have this love for something else like bodybuilding, like content. And I'm in this situation and I'm

I'm young and I'm figuring out that it is only on me.

to make these decisions. And as much as my... I'm very good at listening to what I... I'm very good at being told what to do and listening and doing it great. And that has gotten me places, but also hurt my own personal soul at the same time. Because if I don't have that desire to go do it, I could still do it and I'll do it great. And I'll do a fantastic job. Yeah, I had this insight...

Did you ever hear me talk about the region beta paradox? I have not. So it's where you feel sort of comfortably numb and you're stuck in this weird sort of interquartile range where things aren't so bad that they're terrible, but they're not sufficiently good that you're actually living an amazing life. And I had this... So this thing went kind of viral after I told Rogan about it. And I came up with this idea called the reverse region beta paradox, which...

Being in an aggressively terrible working cadence or environment, but having such a tolerance for discomfort that you can endure it for a lifetime, lower resilience, less stubborn people would snap and have to find a way to change. But not you. You're the David Goggins of working hard. Who's going to carry the workload? You are forever. You're like speaking my language right now for so long.

you know, my dad and coaches and stuff. And I love my dad. I don't want people to think otherwise. We have a great relationship now, but there was definitely rocky times with him and being on the lacrosse team where I was so good at just freaking being uncomfortable. I was like, this is my life. I've accepted this. Even if I'm not so happy, even if I don't want to do it. Yep. I honestly just like, and this might shock a lot of people, I genuinely thought I was just a depressed person. Like for years, I was like, I'm just depressed. Like,

I don't think I'm ever going to escape this. And that's just, I have anxiety and depression. That's me. But then when I was about 18, I realized that I am the only one, like, like let's say it's David Goggins. I'm the only one that can carry the damn boat. Okay. And that boat is going to crush me if I don't decide to do something with it. So I, I remember, I'll never forget. I remember calling my mom and I was like, mom, and she's a very like opposite of my dad where my dad's like tough love. She's very like soft, nurturing love. And I was like,

I can't handle this. I'm making the decision. I'm quitting. I know this is going to shock the entire family. It's going to shock the coaches. I'm going to have to do a bunch of stuff. I have paperwork, find a new college. We just got here like a month and a half ago at Lehigh. And I'm like, how long did you last? I did one full semester, but it was like, we got in on like mid August. And by October, I was like, this is the worst feeling I've ever felt in my life. I have to be done or this is going to end badly in like a year. And I'm like,

I consciously picked up that fucking boat and was like, I'm out. And it was a very empowering and like, it was a very strong spiritual awakening of inner peace of making this decision for yourself. So for anyone that's like listening and trying to understand in their scenario, you're the only one that can pull yourself out and like save yourself. Like truly, there might be people that can help you. You can lean on, you can, you know, you can count on them always, you know, to,

talking you off the ledge or whatever it might be helping you but at the end of the day there's one person that can truly make a decision and do things for you and it's yourself and you have no choice but to make those decisions as uncomfortable as they are and scary they as they are you have you like you have to do these things and make those decisions that are tough let's just linger on that for a second yeah so it's got me thinking about the fact that um

I'm a big proponent of encouraging people to have social support. I think in a world that's fragmented and atomized and everyone's a droid bleep bleep in their way through TikTok, spending a lot of time and having a strong social circle is a really good thing. And you lean on friends. They help you with lots of stuff. But there's a

a particular category of decision or maybe a number of categories of decisions that your friends simply can't help you with, they're not going to help you leave a relationship or leave a job or move house or change country. Once you've made the hard decision as in the pivot in direction, they can sort of help you speed up or help you slow down. They can bring you into land. If you, oh man, I'm going to have the conversation with my boyfriend or girlfriend and I really don't want to do so on and so forth. They can help with that bit.

But the actual, what am I going to do if it's a hard left or right turn? There is nowhere else to hide. I mean, you can have a conversation with them and you can talk it out, but there's nobody else that's going to come and leave the job or the relationship or the flat or the country or tell your parents that you do or don't want to do that thing that they do or don't want you to do. It's so important. I've learned this in the past, like,

I mean, decade for sure. But the past few months, I have really thought to myself about not having fear because I think- You've got fearless tattoo. I have a fearless tattoo right here. I have many words on my body that I try to just live by. So I'd be like relentless, fearless, empathy, which always trying to work on being more empathetic, caring as much as possible. I think surrounding people, your surrounding core can also support those meaningful things to yourself. But being fearless-

It's not just going and doing something. Oh, I'm going to jump off a cliff because I'm scared of it. It's doing the things that like quitting your job because you're so passionate in this other thing. And you're like, I'm going to make this happen. I think being so fearless in my decision of leaving a scholarship is

It was something that I didn't even realize I was doing, but I think it's where I make mistakes in life and have to learn the most, which is always good to learn from your mistakes. But when I make the most mistakes is when I'm in fear, when I have fear and I, and it alters my decision or like puts these glasses on my face that I, that I, I don't even know they're on and I'm doing things and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm acting a certain way and I'm like, wow.

I messed up pretty bad here. I made this decision was so stupid because I was afraid of X, Y, Z. Well, you're compensating to not do the one thing that you know you probably should do, but are terrified of doing. Yeah. You've got this large, important,

important elephant that you need to slit the throat of. And you're going to run around this entire jungle as opposed to just facing that one elephant. Homozy says, I think it's Layla actually, that says fear is an inch deep and a mile wide. So when you look at it, it looks like a huge ocean that's going to cause you to drown. But when you step in it, you realize it's just, it's really shallow and you're going to survive. And I think that's almost, it's really important to do things daily, you know, have daily habits of

getting in the gym, doing things that are very difficult. Maybe you join a run club like we talked in our panel, join a new run club, start CrossFit or sign up for a marathon. Or like I said, getting in an ice bath is a great example. It's like literally one of the reasons I do it because every day you look at that thing and you're like, I hate you. This is going to hurt. I'm kind of afraid to get in right now. But doing those little things that you can accomplish and get over fear for add up

And then it's like building habit and building blocks. So that way, when you have these really hard things of like, hey, that relationship's not working, this job isn't working, you at least know the habitual side of it. Yeah. Well, you've got a basis where you're not super fragile and you're

if somebody sort of hits you a little bit, you're not going to shatter into a thousand pieces. That being said, I'm very good at the discomfort, train, breath work, ice bath thing. But for me, I'm a perennial people pleaser. I hate making other people feel uncomfortable. So-

I'm a pretty good example for someone. That stuff, actually, the hardness comes easy in the physical realm, in the mindfulness realm, in all the rest of it. But when it comes to the social realm, that never really translated over that much. So one of the things that at least I've learned over the last, probably only the last year, that is a good...

daily habit or a regular habit to think about leaning into what you're talking about is basically taking the stairs do something that's a tiny little bit more difficult than it maybe needs to be that's the ice bath that's the the sauna that's the whatever um a social equivalent of that which has made me braver and fear less in social scenarios is making my making my demands or my feelings known like uh basically arguing for my own side so uh somebody says i'm

asks me how the day's going. I'm like, dude, you know, it is actually, things are a bit tough at the moment or X, Y, and Z. A conversation where you know that you need to tell somebody about how they made you feel, uh,

Got to tell you, man, I know that you probably didn't mean it, but the other day, that thing that happened, that really pissed me off. And yeah, I don't want this to impact our friendship, but I don't want that to happen again. And this is how it made me feel. And I just wanted to let you know, because I cherish this friendship. That's a really difficult conversation to have, but those little things. So again, the reason I say that is that

I feel like there's a big cohort of people who are great at making themselves suffer in work, in physical training, in diet, in whatever it is. And then they still get into the social realm. I feel like a pussy. Why am I such a pussy when it comes to having a difficult conversation with a boss or a coworker or a friend or a girlfriend? And that...

Make your demands known. Advocate for yourself. That's what I meant to say. Advocate for your own needs and make them a priority and tell other people gently. And again, proving that if you...

apply a little bit of pressure you're not made of glass and you're not going to shatter but one of my old uh boxing coaches said that the most important lesson that you learn in boxing is that when you get hit in the face you're not going to break that when you see new boxers maybe even up to amateur boxers there's a degree of flinch the flinch response but once you've beaten that and you realize do you ever remember that um

Conor McGregor sequence that he did against... Who was the second guy that he won the title off? The lightweight title. Not Aldo. Khabib? I have no clue. Who was the second dude that he won it off? Let's see. Chase is opening up his laptop. Anyway, he throws this combination, but the combination begins with this overhand right from the guy that he's fighting against. And it...

It makes the end of Connor's nose go like that. But he just knows the distance so well. And I always think about that punch sort of incoming and him basically understanding his tolerance, his resilience, and knowing that that wasn't going to hurt. And he doesn't even blink. His eyes are open. Wow.

Eddie Alvarez. Wow. He doesn't even blink and this fist comes in and touches him on the nose. And then from there, he's just open to do this. So I think it's socially the same with that. Have this difficult conversation, advocate for your own needs, make your needs a priority and believe that they're worthwhile.

and show that the world's not going to break down. People aren't going to call you a selfish, egotistical narcissist for doing it. And that's a good daily practice too, I think. 100%. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say that they're top quality, but few can actually prove it, which is why I partnered with Momentus. They make the highest quality supplements worldwide.

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high school, I remember you saying that when you started doing something a little bit different, your high school became very judgy and they weren't exactly super supportive. But as a young person, how do you overcome the judgment of other, if you don't have the support of people around you? Yeah. So I have like so many scenarios in my head of like sort of screwed up things that people would do or say or what they were. I'll explain them. So

When I was, let's just say 15 to 17, I don't exactly remember exactly what age, but I started my fitness page, which is now my Instagram. And it was called Jesse James Fitness. You know, it has a little ring to it. You know, it's like, it's clearly not my just name. It's like, oh, this brand that I'm trying to do, you know, sell t-shirts, workout programs, whatever it might be. And obviously I said I had aspirations of being a YouTuber and all that stuff. And as you're in high school, at least in my high school,

Back then also, additionally, it was not as normal to try to start a YouTube, but there was no TikTok like Instagram and stuff. And they see this and they see me trying to do it. I have a good physique at this point. Like there's no, it's not even like I have no, no physique, no, no, nothing. Yeah. It's not even like I'm really just trying to be a wannabe. I genuinely could already be in the, in the industry. In my opinion, I have good genetics. Thank you, mom and dad. And at this point,

I have like a few thousand maybe followers and honestly, a lot of them are probably from lacrosse. And I go to the pep rally of like freshmen, sophomore, junior seniors. Everybody's at their own bleacher. There's doing tug of war, doing challenges, battle of the classes, it was called. And I'm a freshman at this time. I remember right now or a sophomore, whatever. And the seniors all chant, Jesse James fitness, Jesse James fitness. And I'm standing there and I'm like,

shit okay i can do two things here i can look down and just like admit defeat and like let them win and i'm not like that at all and or you know i can keep my chin up i can look at them i can double bicep flex and say what do you want what do you want so we were going out for tug of war and that's when they were doing it and i just look at them and i'm like and i flex in my head my soul i'm like

I'm panicking. I'm uncomfortable. I'm so embarrassed. Like, there's the girls behind you that you want to date. The friends that you're making and all this stuff. I'm trying to be cool and whatnot. But I'm like...

I can't let them see that. Like it's a, it's a poker face that I got to keep on because at least, at least I can win that. And I feel like I kept doing that for so long. I really did like partially not give a fuck, but also you'll always give a fuck. I still give a fuck. I get a hate comment. Now, if I get enough of them, I'm still going to give a fuck. I'm never not going to give a fuck. If you, if you don't care, that's just because you don't have a desire in this anymore. And

I remember I do the flex. We do the tug of war, whatever. And then in the hallways, they'd be like, Jesse and fitness. What's up, man? And I just be like, what's up, bro? What's up? Like, you know what? I'm on phase. I don't care. And I feel like people really started to pick up on that. And like, they're like, damn, this, this, this MF is like not breaking.

And these were like the, the junior or the grade above me or whatever. Uh, the, the cool kids, I called them the entitled kids. They very much were no hate against them. Now, everyone, no big deal. It made me who I was, but another time was, um, a kid for Halloween. I, and he might even be watching this. I forgive you. It's okay. Uh, he,

He dressed up as me. Hey, no kidding. He dressed up as me. And I remember seeing this and I was like, this is a new level I have to accept. Like this is fucked. And honestly, like I'll get into it more. So he dresses up in me. He has a fucking muscle suit on at a party. We're probably 16, 17. He was one of the kids that would like go drink with his friends. I drank a little when I was in high school, whatever. And I wasn't really a partier. I didn't have time. I was playing lacrosse every day.

And I was like, I'm sitting at home seeing on my Instagram and I'm like, wow, this fucker is dressing up as me right now. It says Jesse James Fitness. And like those things just like stick with you as like a driving motivation of like why I want to make it even more. It's almost like a trauma, a trauma reaction. Like I was traumatized. My reaction is I'm going to I'm going to win.

You're not going to control me. I'm going to defeat you and everything in front of me. You're just a wall that I have to break through. And if I can't handle this, I don't deserve what I want. That was my mindset. And I saw that. I remember. And you know what's crazy is that now, probably a few months ago, he messaged me. I would never name him, but he messaged me about my Michael Chandler collab. And he's like, dude, saw the Chandler collab. So sick. Great job. And I was like,

Huh. Weren't you? And I was like, honestly, thank you. It's one of those weird things about having a chip on your shoulder about stuff that happened in your past that maybe some kids knew or in reflection realized how much it might have impacted you. But a lot of the time, it's just kids being kids. I know. And that's very strange, right? Because...

the impact of something is so much greater than the, uh, like estimate of it. It hurts way more than what was thrown. Yeah. If that makes sense. And, um,

That's a really strange thing, I think, for people. A circle for them to squat. How can it be the case that this person doesn't deserve for me to still bear a grudge against them? You still remember it now. Maybe 10 years later. It's crazy. It definitely stung for a while, but it's also one of the things that

For some reason, and I'm going to assume that it's from my mom, the way she raised me and always like hyped me up in a way where she believed in me before I believed in me. And she believed in me so much that I ended up believing in myself and everything. I am. I weirdly believe in myself for things I shouldn't believe in myself where I'm like, I could be I could be a musician if I wanted.

Let's be real, Jesse, you're a little tone deaf, but like, you know what I mean? Like I had that mindset that's ingrained in me and from a young age. So seeing those things happen and then she would kind of be the, she'd be like the backbone. She'd be like, you can't let this affect you. Like,

In reality, this is not doing anything. It's really not doing anything. The only thing I could do is hurt you and then you're just stopping yourself from doing anything because it's in your head. Like no one else is seeing that and going, you know what? I'm not gonna support Jesse because that kid wore a muscle suit. Like that shit doesn't exist. It's all how we perceive it. So having that like backbone and belief in my body that my mom instilled me from a young age, I feel like is one of the reasons that I am in the position I am where...

I have so much unconditional belief in myself that I tell people that if you believe in yourself, like, and you actually believe, not just like, oh, I believe in myself. Cause I was told by Chris and Jesse on a podcast too. Like if you genuinely believe in yourself, you are 75% already there towards your goals. Like you will, you will accomplish them. If you believe yourself, put in the work, it's done. What has been the, uh,

What's been the process of closing the loop with your dad? Yes. Having been pushed so hard, presumably a lot of disappointment when the thing that he's worked on with you for nearly a decade goes like, pull the pin and just toss it out the window. That was a very hard time, honestly, for my whole family, because like,

Me, it's me, my sister, my mom, my dad, and we're all very close. We all communicate a ton in great relationships. And for years it was all great. But then with my dad being so, and he, cause he thought this was the best for me. He thought this is going to make Jesse successful. He's going to have security when he's older. Like this, it was out of love. It was just this love that was, I guess you could say hurtful in a way and like a little toxic, but

And so I go through, I'll give you the kind of like the rundown of quitting and like ripping and pulling the pin on the, on the grenade and chucking it. I call my mom. I call my sister. I believe first I've always kind of gone to her as like, all right, what do I do? Like, she's just kind of like another parent to me. And she's like, you're going to have to like, you just call mom, tell her what's going on. She'll, she'll handle dad. That was kind of always how it went. Like mom's going to handle dad. And yeah,

I tell my mom and she's like, I'll talk to your father. And basically my mom tells me the conversation went like this. They came to visit me at Lehigh during an alumni game. We were playing a game. And after the game, we went to target. Me and my mom are going in just getting like college supply stuff. Cause you go early in sports. You don't go and everyone else starts. And I was like,

I go in there and this has been, I've been there for about three weeks and I'm really fucking struggling, like very, very depressed. And I break down crying to her just like, I can't keep it in. Like, and I'm just walking target, like about to like shot the checkout aisles to my right.

And I start tearing up and I'm, and I'm like, oh my God. And I look at her and I'm like, I'm like something's so fucking wrong. Like I, I, I feel like I can't feel anything. I have no interest in like women right now. And not that I was pursuing anything else, but just like my emotion of who Jesse was. Like I always wanted to go out and like talk to the girls. Didn't care at all. None of that social media, still doing it. But I was just like, fuck man. Like my desire of everything is gone.

The only thing I had that kept me sort of sane was lifting and music. And those are like two things that I like combined together. And it was my only safe space. And I remember leaving that, uh, target. My mom, uh,

Then drop my mom and dad are in the car. My dad doesn't know. I just cried I'm like fucking suck it up like you're fine like get in the car like i'm i'm the good boy. That's fucking Completing this mission of ours And when she drops me off, she told me something the conversation she looked at my dad and was like you're not saying a word He's leaving you have no say so shout out karen to this fucking legend and she's like You have to accept this and that's how it is period end of conversation and

I feel like he kind of knew for a while. Like I know we're skipping parts in the story of like my, my darkness and stuff, but like he kind of caught the idea a little bit, like my son struggling, but I feel like he kind of didn't want to admit it. And, but what that did was it broke down this massive barrier of how my dad thought I should go about life. And also broke down a massive barrier for myself that I,

maybe I don't have to listen to everyone telling me to do things. And maybe I should just listen to myself and actually like pursue things that I want to. And I haven't, I haven't been able to in six years of my life. I've been playing lacrosse every day, every weekend, missing homecoming, late to prom, leaving prom weekend because I had to go play in an all-star game. Like the shit never ended. And like,

It made me like relentless and it definitely was like dedication and relentless right there. But that shit stuck with me for so long of like, I didn't get anything for a while of like experience that normal people have. And I feel like it just hit a big breaking point when I got to college. And once that happened, it was, uh, it was then now like my mom tells my dad, Jesse's out accepted or, you know, you're not gonna have a relationship with your son. Basically. I then, you know, I come home for the weekend and,

I talked to my dad and stuff and he's like, he's very understanding. He's like, honestly, I would, I don't want to speak for him, but I think it's one of his biggest regrets is like,

pushing me that that far to my limits where as a father you never want to push your son into depression or anything not that he pushed me there but like his actions added up the setup yeah and i know like we have a great relationship now we did throughout years it was up and down good bad sometimes now it's a great relationship but during that time it definitely like changed his mindset of like just everything and really like

John had to become a new man and accept things. And I had to become a new man and learn that I have to say what I want in life, do what I want. And like you said, hold yourself. I have to advocate for myself at all times because this was a saying that I stuck with.

Do what you're meant to, not what you're supposed to. Everyone is always supposed to be doing something. But if you're not meant to be doing that, why the fuck are you doing it? Like, seriously. I wonder how many people have gone through their entire lives never doing anything that they weren't supposed to do. Yep. You know, there's... Sad. It's just been one big series of dominoes from when they were born until now, whatever age they are, where they never told...

their dad or the equivalent of it that they didn't want to do lacrosse. Yeah. And it,

It's like one of my main missions on social media. Yes, I want to do big things, make cool videos. But like the true why of like the core of why I started, why I do all this was because I went through that. And I feel like I went through such a dark phase of my life with such a bright awakening. I was like, people need to know this shit. Like people need to just not be told it, but shown it. I would...

I'd advocate for myself that on my channel, it's me living my best life, doing cool things that I have desires that I'm interested in. You know, I'm interested in Vikings. I'm going to go freaking Norway, jump off cliff of Vikings and eat and drink mead and do these cool things. It's like, that's something I've always wanted to do. I have a lot of fascination and stuff like that. And,

I always wanted to leave a subconscious message with my videos. Like if you're not living life to the fullest, like you are missing out on so much. And I hope that people can watch this and realize that you are worth that meant to life rather than that supposed to life. And I hope people can pursue their meant to eventually. Yeah. It's scary, man. That's why I think advocating for yourself, making your needs known,

There's this sort of assumption a lot of people have, very much a British thing, but maybe a working class thing too.

Who am I to actually have needs or desires or wants in that regard? That there's this sort of weird glory and sacrifice in subjugating yourself. It's like, no, no, no, no. It's noble for me to hate what I do and still do it. It's noble for me to suffer this sort of weird sort of self-flagellation as you whip yourself through whatever it is that you're going through. And in some ways there is, but no one's going to give you

some award at the end of your life that says he suffered in silence. There's not going to be a banner over your deathbed that goes, congratulations for never making a fuss. I don't think that that exists. And so much of the advice that's on the internet at the moment

has been born out of a identity politics, victimhood, fragility, over-diagnosis of normal human discomfort as a pathological mental problem world. So most of the content is Goggins and Jocko saying, stay hard, suck it up, buttercup. You don't need to be such a soft person.

But there is a world of people out there who are making themselves suffer too much, who aren't advocating for their own desires, who aren't making their needs known, who don't believe that they should be a priority in their life or in anybody else's. And I think that they're the sort of people that listen to this show

And that stuff in many ways pushes them further into what they already have too much of. They don't need to do more suffering. They need to get better at making their own needs known to the people around them. Yeah, I think it comes down to like how I said about believing in yourself. I think a lot of people...

weren't raised the way to have that where they need to learn that in their twenties, thirties, forties, whatever. And that's way harder than growing up thinking that. So I'm definitely like very blessed to have that. Intuitional belief in myself from like day one. And I think for those that may not relate to that, how, how I have that belief, it's one of those things that that's where I think you need to realize that

there's things like the nine to five and there's things like the entrepreneurial route. And I think it's really important for people to realize that it isn't always grass. Isn't always grass is greener on the other side. I think people need to realize also that there is just as much,

in some scenarios struggle in, oh, I'm going to do everything on my own. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. You're working 24 hours, brother. Good luck. It's hard. Nine to five. Good luck. If I had to go to that, good luck. It's hard. It's hard on both ends of life. It's just a matter of almost like what evil do you want to put your energy into? Like they see Goggins and they think, oh, suffer, suffer, suffer. Let's go. Let's go. I'm going to fucking get through this job. I don't care. And that makes them, maybe they get dopamine off of that.

But you also could just input that same exact suffering energy into maybe something that you have passion and drive for. It's still going to maybe have its moments of difficulty and suck, but at least it's towards something that like your inner soul, it's different feeling of outcome of just internal feeling of your, like your soul's dopamine hits. You know what I mean?

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What's your advice to people who don't have a supportive surrounding that maybe are in a... You heard of food deserts? It's places around countries where it's very difficult to get hold of high quality food. I often think about role model deserts or sort of support deserts, places where someone is trying to do something a little bit different. Maybe they're not following the prescribed route that typically people from where they're from are doing and they go...

Because you did it twice. You first left the normal education, normal teenager life to do the lacrosse thing and then left the lacrosse life thing to do the next thing. So in both situations. It's been like five things that I've kind of like said, I'm out. I left that normal teenage life. That's one. Left Lehigh. That's two. Went to Montclair State University, D3 school, very close to home, sort of like a...

more expensive community college you can live at and played lacrosse there and played there did very well was like a had the most goals in the team and stuff like that so again people are like keep doing it bro keep doing it you're doing amazing oh my god positive reinforcement yeah and i'm like i'm like is this what i'm supposed to be doing though so then that got to a point where

I was like, I went into, I went straight into my coach and was like, Hey, I don't want to do this anymore. That was, that was the third time he luckily, like, I appreciate what he did. He was like, I want you to shift your perspective. I don't want you to look at this. I was waiting for the beeping. I don't want you to look at this as, ah, you have to be here. Just go out, hang out with the guys, do,

Do your thing. Stop putting pressure on yourself. And that lightened it up for a while. It really did. And kind of like, it's almost like an internal anxiety that we all put on ourselves of like, I have to be here. I have to do this. Oh, I got to wake up at 6am tomorrow. Rather than just being like, you know what? It's happening. Let's accept this rather than fight it. And that's a really good fight. That internal fight is where anxiety is painful.

Because in your head, you're basically living through it multiple times and you're forcing yourself to feel the anxiety that's happening in real life. But if you just take a second, this helps me a lot with anxiety. I take a step back. I go, I have anxiety right now.

And I'm feeling it. And I allow myself to feel this anxiety and my body almost like releases the tension and I kind of relax into it. And yes, there's still anxiety, but it's like, it's like when you're in the ice bath and you're, oh fuck. Oh my God, I'm dying. This is killing me. And then you're like, you know what? Ah,

And you just let it. Yeah, it still hurts. There's some days that you get in that. You have to just let it. You have to just let the, just accept it. Accept the pain. Mark Twain says, worrying is like paying a debt that you don't owe. And that's it. It's not just the discomfort of the thing that you're going to have to do. It's the 50 times that you think about that thing constantly.

in advance of it. And then once you finish thinking about it and it happens, you then sort of ruminate about the fact that it, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. I also want to say, and I don't think a lot of people know this about me, which I'm totally fine being open about, but I'm on an antidepressant since I was 15.

Um, I experienced a ton of anxiety when I was like 15. I had no idea how to handle it. So I kind of like acted out in anger because I just didn't know what this feeling was. And it was just straight up anxiety. And it came a lot from the pressure of sports. And I only scored two goals today. I performed better last week. What do I do? I just dropped the ball. Everyone's looking at me. The coaches are mad, whatever it might be. And.

I went on to Zoloft, I'm at like 50 milligrams for literally nine years. Pretty crazy. The one time I came off and the reason I'm bringing this up, cause I want to almost normalize like, Hey, if you're on this stuff, like I used to feel ashamed that I was on it and not tell anybody, like maybe my two best friends knew for like five years and no one else knew. But yeah,

I went on it from 15 to 18. When I went to Lehigh, it was the only time I ever came off. The time you made the most important decision in your life. The time I made the most important decision in my life and also felt the most pain in my life. Did I feel more pain because I was off? I have no idea. 50 milligrams is not a lot. It's small. But I then went back on, felt regulated. Does it work? I honestly have no idea. I can't really tell you. Because you've not been you without being on it. I've never not been on it. Would you ever be interested in...

titrating down or dropping off it? Or is this going to be for the rest of your life? It's a good question. I've had these conversations. One thing that I'm afraid of is altering my mind from where it's at right now. I think eventually...

I think it comes from a lot of internal work and daily practices to be able to shift off of it. Like, you know, I get on breath work. I don't do that now. I gotta, I gotta maybe go in the sauna and the ice bath on a little things like that, that I need to take an account. If I'm coming off of it, the only thing I fear is,

And I could be like, just like a trauma thing is in 2018, just being that depressed and having that, I think that me stopping registers in my brain as that's going to happen again. It might not, you know, it probably doesn't, but in my head, I'm scared. It's a high risk strategy, man. I mean, I have no idea what long term decades long SSRI usage is, but you know, you,

you've got fiance you've got business you seem like you have a lot of energy so a lot of the things that seem to come along for the ride with ssri is like libido dipping energy dipping desire to drive and train and stuff like that i don't have that luckily well yeah it's or maybe imagine if i was out without it like having sex with everyone um everybody watch out keep it away keep it away

I had Andrew Wilkinson on the show. He's a billionaire. He owned tiny.com. He's got a bunch of other businesses and he was singing the praises of SSRIs as well. And this is another one of those conversations where the midwit

headline is SSRIs are overprescribed for people that don't need them, therefore all SSRIs are bullshit and everyone that's on them is a wimp. Right. The second order smarter person thinking is there probably is overprescription and maybe SSRIs do only move the needle a little bit, especially for many cohorts, but

some drugs, some people are hyper responders to certain drugs. And it seems like for you, hasn't come with a whole bunch of side effects and it does seem to work well. Andrew Wilkinson said the same. He tried everything. He tried keto. He tried carnivore. He tried breathwork. He'd done all of the different things. And then he tried SSRIs and it seemed to work. So I'm like, I'm really keen to just get people out of this

reflective midwit thinking, which is, oh, pussy, SSRIs. You go, okay. Is it somehow more noble for someone to suffer and be miserable as opposed to take this? It's the same thing with Ozempic. I think lots of people are going to come around eventually when the conceptual inertia of taking a pill to lose weight is cheating, right?

okay, does that mean that the caffeine in your drink is cheating? Because that's augmenting the way that you operate. Does it mean that a diabetic that can't produce insulin that needs to take a shot, are they cheating to stay alive? They're pussies. Yeah, pussy. Just like suck it up, pussy. So I really, and I'm fortunate with the audience I have that they're thoughtful people. But yeah, avoiding that midwit thinking is something that's super important. And it's really cool. The SSRI,

effectiveness for you that seems to have you functioning pretty normally. People I've heard on the mod cast, it's like Sush and James English years ago. They were like, I think Jesse's brain automatically produces Adderall in his head. And I was like, that makes a lot of sense. I don't, I don't do any drugs like whatsoever. I drink maybe one drink a month. And it's like some, the way I'm operated is almost like I,

I'm on these performance enhancing drugs, I feel like, but just naturally something's in my body and drive and passion. So luckily the SSRIs haven't affected me in any negative way. Maybe that's why I'm like able to work so much. I don't know. It seems like it's functioning pretty well. That's why I'm so happy, guys. Also to think about what you said that if you were to come off them, you would have to go through all of these routines maybe to ensure that mental health was in a good place. So last...

Six to eight months for me has been rough. I've been detoxing from mold in a house that I was living in, which for anybody that's going through it, it's brutal. I still haven't sort of fully talked about it on the show yet, but it's been awful. It's so hard. And the way that I described it to my therapist was it feels like the gravity of your mood is so much heavier. So in order for me to be in a good mood or for my brain to be functioning well, I have to have...

just got out of a cold plunge after doing a sauna, listening to my favorite music on my way to see my friend to eat my favorite food while the sun's shining. You know, it doesn't just, you don't just stumble upon a good mood and you don't just stumble upon a good sort of a mind space in terms of energy. I'm always forgetting things. My mood is

always struggling and it feels like swimming upstream. And that's kind of the same thing you're talking about there. So when it comes to enhancements in different ways, I was talking to Dr. Mike and Crystal, his wife, the other day, and she was saying there's even this new class of SSRIs now that they've dialed in the formulation more effectively. It works on a different pathway. There's even fewer side effects. It's basically free happiness. And I understand because of

Up until now, most of pharmacology hasn't come along. Every time that you try and give someone a free lunch, there is some unseen cancer down the road. There is some side effect, cholesterol's through the roof and people are dying because of blood clots or whatever it might be. There are all of those.

apart from when you get to the stage where you can fully master these things, that's like kind of saying previously, well, you know, we've said that surgeries are going to work for all of this time, but each time that we do it, people keep on getting infected. It's like, yeah, that's because he didn't have an understanding of the germ theory of disease. But then as understandings continue to develop, I think we should be cautious about using lessons from the past to sort of inform right now, at least, um,

super judgmentally. It's like, let's be open to this, especially given it's like saying, how can you have a computer that talks to you? You go, well, I don't know. LLMs seem to be doing a pretty good job. So the same thing might happen in pharmacology as well. But yeah, the idea of having to work hard for a good mood is something that I've been intimately familiar with over the last few months. So I feel you. It's a fun fact. I actually forgot to take mine last night. So today I was like withdrawing. That's one of the reasons that I also like coming off sucks. It's that short acting.

the what do you mean well you didn't take it last night yeah and today you feel it about about an hour and a half ago i was like i was like why am i so fucking dizzy and then i looked at my fiance and i was like i didn't take my fucking pill last night so i'll turn a corner and my brain was like wow so it's it's happening it's not delayed by like it's like 36 hours i got hit and i was like whoa okay

But it's not as if you build up some passive reservoir of this stuff. I guess not. So it's happening pretty quick. That's interesting. I've always had that. Like if I miss it one day, I get, I get dizzy. Getting onto some of the stuff that you've done in fitness. We talked about this earlier on hybrid training. Running is super popular at the moment. You ran every day for a month. What did that do to you? It gave me a lot of respect for runners. Yeah.

Um, especially hybrid runners. I don't say all runners, any, any, any new challenge or workouts tough, but doing it every day, it was like new and fun and you're sore in the beginning and it's really hard, but I feel like running is a different sort of reward where I see a very quick result where I run three miles on day one, horrible time. I'm dying. I'm cramping. I feel terrible. I'm like, bro, I'm running a marathon 30 days. How is this going to happen by day seven? I'm like, I can run three miles.

Then when you go to six, you know, it's hard again. You got to taper up. I did a very rapid prep. No one really does this. Nick bear sort of coached me. He's like, Hey, this is the best case scenario. You're going to run this many miles each day. Good luck. No one should do this. So you started from not being a runner and within 30 days did what? Full marathon. Full marathon. Sub four, baby. How did that feel? Uh, the marathon? Excruciating. Uh, yeah.

It wasn't the most painful thing I've ever done. And I'll segue into what, what it is. Cause you want to hear that? Um, the marathon, the first 13 miles were pretty chill. And I was like, all right, we're halfway. Like, this is going to be pretty easy. Like not easy, but like, I'll be okay. And then I get to mile 15 and I was like, bro, my legs like are just like not cooperating. Now mile 16, I entered the wall, which they call it. It's like a wall.

The wall means the wall and running is where you hit this block period of time, many miles, one mile could be 10. Doesn't everyone's different. And it's the biggest hurdle that you have to get over. It's the same. You're running at the same pace. There's no difference. Nothing has changed. It's just your body has and your body and mind has created this wall that you have to literally get through. And for me, it was mile 16 to 24. Yeah.

For many people, everyone's like, dude, when you hit mile 20, you're going to hit a wall. You'll get through it. You'll get through it. 20, 20, you'll hit it. 20, you'll hit it. Bro, 16. And I kept, it kept getting drastically worse and worse. And I was like, I have to be leaving the wall soon. I have to be leaving the wall soon. Mile 22. Why am I still on the wall? What is happening? Am I going to die? Longest wall in history. And it's probably because I had a very rapid training for it. And at this point, my hip flexors feel like they're going to tear off the bone.

And I'm very underprepared. 30 days is nowhere near enough. No one should ever do that. Unless you're stupid, make a YouTube video. Uh, we get to mile 24. I meet an angel of a man. I think his name was Matt. I believe it was Matt. It was like literally like an angel that someone just put right there. And I was like, Hey, Hey you. And he's like, Hey, Oh, you're that YouTube guy. He's like, I've seen you. And I was, I was like, Oh,

Can I run with you, please? Because we're running. We're through the woods also. So it's kind of like a difficult marathon. They're all hard. And I catch up with him and I look at him. I go, do not slow down. Don't slow down. I'm going to keep up with you.

And then we start getting this pace and I'm just like, I want to cry already. It's, it's happening, but I stick with them. And then, and then he starts slowing down. I, and then I pick him up and I'm like, come on, bro, come on. And then a third dude joins us and we're all dying together. And it's like, we've never met each other in our lives. We're all like, you got this, bro. What's your name? Nice to meet you. And we're dying. And we finally make it. And honestly, I like my, if I didn't meet Matt at mile 24 ish,

I genuinely, I kept like walking, running, walking, running the last few miles before I met him. And I was like, dude, if I have to walk this, like I have failed so miserable. I'm so mad at myself because I know I can, I can handle the pain. And I kept reminding myself, this is not the hardest thing you've done. The hardest thing I've done, by the way, when I finished the marathon, my fiance was at the end, euphoric feeling, gave her a hug, saw my mom, had my team there, laid on the ground, couldn't get up. Uh,

I couldn't train hamstrings for like six weeks. I was going to say, what were the next few days like? Oh my God. The pain was so bad. I was limping for multiple days, like could barely lift my leg. And for about six weeks, my, the tendon behind your knee, there's like those two like stringy tendons.

Uh, I could not do a hamstring curl for the life of me I could do like squats and stuff But I could not curl anything like not even like five pounds felt like I probably tore something and then My hip I could not raise my right leg and then for a while. There's a lot of crunching going on I was like this was a bad idea and Video did great 3.3 million views probably in growing. Uh, the my favorite part about that video was the

The storytelling and ending at the end was so like pure and it really moved people and got people so like the comments on that video was, was different than anything else. Did you see Casey Neistat's video about his marathon? Which the, the sub three. Yes. I saw how it took him like years. Decades, I think. Decades. I ran mine 353.

And I was super happy with that. I was like, what the hell did I do? I'm not going to lie. I'm an athlete. I played you in lacrosse. I was very good at sports and stuff like being athletic doesn't doesn't isn't hard for me. But running a marathon is wildly different. Athletic doesn't really matter there. It's just a matter of like willpower conditioning.

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But let me tell you about the hardest thing that I've done. Oh God, I have trauma from this one. You can thank a guy named Brian Johnson, AKA Liver King. Okay, this guy, psychopath. Love him, great guy to be around. Extremely successful businessman.

Very motivating. He does this thing called the barbarian. You have 15 pound on ankle weights on each leg, 15 pound or 70 pound backpack, 150, 140 pound sled and holding 70 pound kettlebells.

And it's 112 degrees outside in Texas and it's August or July or something. And you have to go through the sand. So like sand gives resistance as you pull, it's digging, it's digging itself into the ground. So it's torturous. So it's like, if you had to do the math, it's like 315 pounds you're carrying. So like, and you have to go a mile. I've done it once with him. The first time I met him and we did on flat gravel. I did it in an hour in 20 something minutes. I beat him by an hour. I was like, what the hell just happened, bro?

That was like, okay, that was one of the hardest things I've done. Not the hardest. Then I do the second challenge a year later. He invites me back. He's like, I want you to do the barbarian crucible. I'm like, this sounds terrible, but I'm in. I'm all for stupid things that I'm gonna have to put myself through. That's why I literally have like scars from this. And we do this about quarter mile in. I was like,

already having a first heat stroke and i was like what i was like bro this is next level because it's through sand it's through dirt it's through uh it's the same thing same exact thing same mile just the course is 10 times harder and he last time he did it was a competition so you kind of have that like let me chase you feeling this time he's just chilling he's smoking a cigar drinking his whiskey calling the walkie-talkie guy next to me talking shit and i'm like i i told him i said i will finish this and this goes back to my like

almost stupid belief in myself to where I do things that hurt myself because I'm like, I'm not going to fail. I'm not going to stop. So I psychotically do this for like, let's say three quarters of the mile. And I get to the sand. It's like first half, just gravel and dirt and stuff hard, but not the worst sand at like last 0.4 miles. And I,

I, uh, I get to this point where I am now full on having a heat stroke. I'm freezing. It's 112 degrees outside. It makes no sense. I've sweat all water out. Now I'm covered in white because like my, uh, like electrolytes are just on me and I'm like,

I'm like, I'm dying. I look at their producers and stuff. I'm like, bro, I'm done. Were you allowed water? I was allowed to drink water. They were pouring a ton of water on me, but like nothing was working. And I look at their producer and I'm like, I'm done. I'm going to, they said, if you unclip, you're done. I'm about to unclip. And they're like, don't do it. And I'm like, I'm stupid. I'm good at being told that what to do, like, and still doing it. And I'm like, okay, you said, don't do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm going to keep going. I go, I go next heat stroke on the ground, laying there for 30 minutes. I'm like,

My soul has left my body. I know I don't have sweat left in my body. I'm covered. I lick my lips. It's salty. Like I needed some of this stuff. Great plug. But I get to a point where I'm like,

I'm like, dude, I have 0.15 left of a mile. Like I have to just finish this same thing in the marathon. Like if I don't, I'm just gonna be pissed. Once I feel better, I'll be pissed. And I, I somehow slug my way to the end. Five steps, drop five steps, drop five steps, drop. I'm like dead in the face. I get there. I crossed the finish line. I just collapse on the ground. And he's like,

yeah, there you go, brother. And he's like, yeah, yeah, boy. He says that. So he's like, uh, he's like, let it, the fuck is all these sayings. They're just psychotic. And I'm laying there. And safe to say, it took me four hours, four hours to go a mile. And,

That was the most painful thing I've ever done in my life. So when I did the marathon, I just kept thinking about that. And I was like, that was four hours of way more pain. This is four hours of a different pain. My legs have never had so much lactic acid in my body, but my upper body is perfectly fine. My mind can push through this. But with liver King, it's like your arms are tired. Your legs are tired. Your soul, you can't even feel your soul because you're so dehydrated.

It was a crazy experience. What have you learned about resilience to physical discomfort from the challenges and things that you've done? I've learned that you can push your body so much farther than you'd ever think. Something that I learned at Lehigh, we had a Navy SEAL course come to us

And so I hated everything about Lehigh school. Uh, the guys were cool. The coaches were always nice to me, but like the program didn't want to do it. All that stuff sucked when they brought in Navy seals and made us stay up 50 hours. Favorite thing. I was, I was depressed at the time. Fucking loved it way better than whatever the hell we were doing before. So it was like this weird, everyone else hated it. I was like, I don't know why that was the best part of my month. And we,

We do this... Oh, dude, I'm like remembering this shit. It's crazy. Okay, I'm like 18. I'm like 180 pounds right now. I was probably almost 200. Just meat stick, bro. Fucking 4,500 calories a day. And...

They make us do perfect jumping jacks, perfect sit-ups, perfect push-ups. One person messes up, everyone is required to call that one person out, basically make them feel like shit. And then everyone runs because of it. We do that for four hours straight. They say, go home, get one hour of sleep. We go home, we fucking lay down, we get right back up. We're in a pool at 3 a.m. They say,

put your sweatsuits on full crew neck, full sweatpants. These sweatpants are like double XL that we're wearing. And they're like, jump in the pool. And I'm like, what the fuck? And they're like, if you can't swim, go to the shallow end. Like dead ass, they said this to us. And I was like, someone's gonna die. We go in and they're like, okay, we're gonna do...

the pushups, the sit-ups, the everything on the outside of the pool. We're soaking wet. We're doing them. We're calling out people for not doing it right. And you're held accountable. If they see you see someone and you don't go, hey, Johnny over here didn't do his pushup right. Now you're fucked. Now you get called out. So it's everybody's calling out each other and just saying like, you suck. You're horrible. Very traumatizing for some people. You should see that the faces on these people were, I'm going to die. And then we go in the pool and we're like, okay,

Now we're going to do basically like a deep end simulation thing where you have to take off your sweatshirt. You have to switch with somebody and then put it on. It's some Navy SEAL training. Don't know the name of it, but wild experience that you tread. You're treading and you're in like picture like so much resistance on your legs and you're like 40 pounds, 20 pounds heavier with this like weighted clothes on you.

And you're trying to swim and everyone's like, you're trying to like, hey, you got this. You got this. You're talking each other up. And they're like, all right, everyone take off your sweatshirt and you have to go on a ready, ready attack call. So like

Everyone's on the exact same page and you take it off and you're treading. You're treading at one arm. You have to hold it up with one arm until everybody is ready. You know, and it takes two minutes at least to get these things off. It's like stuck to you. Kids don't know what they're doing. Some kids literally are being held up by other people. I shouldn't say kids. We're like adults at this time and we're treading. We're treading. And then it's like ready, ready to attack. Switch with somebody.

You switch now ready, ready, attack, put it on. So think of like a wet rag, like stuck together. And you're like trying to like find the opening and you're treading still for like, we're at like minute eight of treading. And then we put it on and we're like all just dying. Some kids are near drowning. Like genuinely there's two people holding their arms up and they're like, their head is barely above the water. And if they don't complete it, restart. We did like four rounds of this thing. And they would, they'd look at the team captain and go, how quick can you do it?

And they wanted to push the hell out of us. And the team captain says something like two minutes. Okay, do it again.

They look at them again. You didn't, you didn't 150. How quick can you do it? One 30. They're like, all right, one 30. You didn't one 25. How quick are you doing? All right. One 20. We do it. We get all the way down to like one, one 15, one 20. And we're all, we've been training water for like 40 fricking minutes. Cause in between, maybe you get like a quick, put the shoulder on something, but you're back crazy experience. And that is pre YouTube challenge. So like doing that, uh, definitely showed me like,

you're capable of so much. Those seals that day were like, listen, when you think you're done, when you think you're done, not just like, oh, I'm tired, I'm done. When you think you're truly done, you have 40% left in the tank. And you need to tell yourself that every single time when you're on the field, when you think you're done, 40% left, keep pushing. And I was like,

damn, I'm going to live by that. And like, obviously I'm not an ABC by any means or anything, but like that, that, that stuck with me. And when I get in those moments, I think there's still 40, like that still sticks with me. 40% left when I'm on my marathon and I'm at mile 24, still 40% left, sadly. Yeah. I wonder again, how many people would benefit from really formative experiences like that? You know, it's such an opportunity for you to do it as a college athlete, but most people get out of that. You know, I hear about, um, these, um,

alpha boot camp things that are happening. I know the owners. And there's a bunch of them. Bedros has been on the show, Julian, if you know him. And it's kind of easy to mock online because the storyline tells you too much. It's just way too easy of a headline where someone says, man pays $10,000 to have dude with beard and full sleeve shout at him while he doesn't sleep. You know, it's a funny headline. But

When you actually look at what those kinds of formative experiences maybe teach you and the fact that you got to learn that at 18. Yeah. The reason that it's a bit, that people think it's a bit cringe and it might be cringe. I'm not too sure. The reason that people think it's a bit cringe is why are you at 45 needing this? And you go, well,

What if you've never had it before? What if you've never pushed yourself to that place before? Normal person, at what point in your life are you going beyond that 40% line that you think is your normal one? Even someone that runs a marathon, if they're preparing for six months or a full year for it, it should be a relatively sure thing unless you've got some sort of weird pathology and your heart blows up halfway around. It's a

difficult and impressive, but relatively. And then you go, okay, what about an Ironman? Well, okay. Even with that, the point is that you're training to be able to do the thing. Yeah.

It would be almost like... I see what you're saying. Doing something that you're almost not prepared for to torture yourself so much that you will gain a much more valuable lesson than if you prepared for it. Yeah, of course. Which is crazy. Yes. And going through that, I'm very great. This is where the moments where I then look back at my dad setting me up in these situations where I'm like, thank you so much.

for, even though it was rocky at times, thank you so much for making me go do this because there's a reason I'm in the position I am. There's a reason I can handle so much. And there's a reason that I can push myself so much. And it all falls back to being in the rain, the hail, the snow, him throwing the ball a million times. And I'm like, why are we doing this? It all makes sense now. And the way liver King is, is, is why it's why I respect him so much. And yes, he has had scandals, but as a man, and you could argue this cause he lied, whatever as a man that I know, I,

As he's like a friend of mine, I see his sons and then I see the way he is with them and how it was similar to my father and the way that he pushes them and the way that my dad pushed me. And I'm, and I look at, I looked, I told them and I said, I said, I know it might not make sense now what your dad is doing and how you got to do the barbarian. You got to, you know, be strict with your diet or whatever. I'm like, it's going to make, give it 10 years. You're going to thank him.

And I, and I promise, I promise they will. I won't say I promise, but 99%, there might be 1% chance that they will. And that's like one of those things where doing hard things is so necessary. And I think even if you're 45, I mean, what age is born Buffett become a billionaire or a millionaire? It wasn't like 40 or 50 years. It took a long time. Oh, let's make fun of his business.

Freaking self for why weren't you a millionaire younger bro like no he's a billionaire now like it doesn't matter what time you start what age you start I think the fact is that not everyone has the opportunity to go to a D1 lacrosse program on a scholarship and have a dad push them and care for them that much with that he wants to put him in that scenario.

where you end up going, do those things and learn those lessons at 18. It's unrealistic. Some people do have to learn lessons in adulthood that they should have learned in childhood. We all do. There's a million lessons to learn. And it's kind of, it is very strange in a world where we want people to be more resilient. There is an odd amount of

sort of teasing and pity and mocking for people that take stuff seriously when they get into later life. And you go, okay, it's not far off the developmental equivalent of mocking a fat person going to the gym. You go, the exact thing that they need is the thing that they're trying to do.

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Speaking of fat person going to the gym, you competed recently. You got on stage. You called me a fat person before? I'm kidding. You're leaner. I was less lean. True. You competed. Yes. What was that process like? What's it feel like to be that lean? Terrible. So I'll explain. Once again, this is sort of a scenario where it's,

I tend to do things in a much shorter period of time than you're supposed to. One, because it's like a new challenge that I think is different than everyone else's challenge that maybe I just am drawn to. But then secondly, I think it's,

It's more interesting for videos and real life and more realistic for me. I can't devote a year to training. I could, but like I realistically, I got other three other 90 day or three other 30 day videos I want to make this year. So I can't devote a year to training for a marathon. I only got 30 days. And then when that's done, I got the next 30 day challenge at waking up at 5am and you can't do multiple. You can't do multiple at once unless you want to be shit. So restate the question. Sorry.

What does it feel like to be that lean? What does it feel like to be that lean? So in the process of losing that much fat in such a short space of time. So you look at like a bodybuilding prep, it's 16 weeks. I did mine in, let's say eight. I'm always pretty lean. I never really bulk past like 15% body fat. Um, the first week or two is, you know, like you're like, all right, it's tough. You're doing your cardio, whatever. Maybe you're tired. But the last like three weeks, um, we're so, so tiring in like

I'm emotionally stealing in a way where I literally felt nothing like I was a corpse. You could look at me in the eyes and you could be like, you're thinking nothing right now. You have no emotion and everyone experiences prep different. Some people look at it in a very beautiful way and they love seeing the changes in their body. For me, it was tough seeing the changes like dated looking back at photos. Damn, I was shredded.

But then in the moment, it's very odd because you look at yourself and you pinch the side of your body. And I'm like, I'm not even that lean. The small fear is strong. I'm so skinny right now. Like, I don't look like C-bum. I look stupid. Fat bum. Yeah, I'm posing and my legs aren't even touching. They're so skinny. You know, it's like you start really picking at all these negative things in your head. And if I wasn't making content around it, I think that definitely helped keep my mind off that sort of...

dysmorphic thought and it was like okay we have a mission here we're making awesome videos at the same time I can focus on that more but it definitely it took a huge toll on my relationship I literally like every single emotion I just didn't have like I couldn't feel happy I couldn't feel sad. Except hunger presumably. Honestly I don't really deal with too much hunger which is like

a gift. It's just lack of energy. I feel like lethargic of, of, I feel like I know my blood sugar is low. What is it? Hypoglycemic. I feel very hypoglycemic all the time. And I was like, this is just brutal. Just get to the end date. The show is a very fun experience. It's very rewarding. It's awesome being on stage. You know, yelling most muscular posing against people. Awesome experience. Highly recommend everybody do it maybe once or at least once

I think everybody should get pretty lean once to experience what it's like to one, look at your best and to really see the different type of hard work it takes to get to the next level of body conditioning. Because my level and then there's even so much farther that Sebum goes and every other competitor out there. I just named him because I feel like. What do you think you got down to?

Greg Doucette said 6% Okay So even let's say 6.5% to be friendly Yep Pretty lean Pretty lean And as a natural My hormones were tanked Like 200 nanograms test 200 free Like oh my god dude

Thankfully, still works. Come back. Still works. Don't worry. But the feeling of 200 tests is absolutely horrible. And that's like one reason why I just like don't have a desire to compete anymore slash for a very long time. What was the hardest part of it? I feel like accepting...

You know what it is? The hardest part is that same anxiety fight where these you're like, I'm so uncomfortable and your body like wants to tense internally and fight this uncomfortability feeling rather than sympathetically activated. Yeah. Rather than just like, like I talked to Chris about this recently and he was like, you have to just know that this is your choice. You can stop if you want. And it almost I feel like he has that like where he can turn that.

that internal battle against it. And a lot of other successful bodybuilders have that ability. I haven't learned it yet. It's the same as you were saying, I've got to get up at six in the morning. I've got to get up at six in the morning as opposed to, I'm just going to get up at six. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's so funny, man. I think it's, it's cool to see, uh, you're like an elite normal, you know what I mean? You're kind of a representation for, uh,

Nobody looks and goes, C-bomb. Genetic freak, once-in-a-generation bodybuilder with a fantastic background and the perfect nutrition and a little bit of hormonal help and all the rest of it.

So when I ask him, he's on the show this week, when I speak to him about what prep feels like, what theory of mind have I got to know what it's like to be Chris Bumstead, the bodybuilder? None. But I feel like you're just elite normal. That's a great way to put it. Dude, I...

We got to take my team's behind there. We got to take notes and that's going to help. That's going to help like ideas. The best of the normies. Because if you think about it, it's like, that's like, I did an elite normal thing. The marathon elite normal thing. Wake up at 5am for 30 days. It's not really that much elite. That's more normal. Um, cold plunge every day. That's just cold having a kid. Yeah. Well,

or we had a puppy in the same thing yep but uh yeah i think i think another experience that really stands out to me this is kind of tangent but an experience i want to talk about that truly changed my life was with wim hof and that was oh my god that was such a magical experience doing that in person because we know what the wim hof method does i'm sure have you ever done the breathing

Yeah, of course. So we know, we know how good that breathe, that breath work feels the ice bath, you get endorphins, but imagine doing it with a dude. That's like the guy creator of it almost, you know what I mean? And he's not kindest person. Really? I felt so like safe with him. And I come in first thing we do. He's like, let's Finland.

Netherlands. They're all the same. I'm like, where have I been? That whole area. I shouldn't say that. There's loads of people that listen in Finland. But did he do that thing where you have to penguin dive off the... He did it. I didn't. I was like, that's a little extreme. That water has got to be like 31.9 degrees Fahrenheit. But yeah, first thing he does, dive in the cold water. I'm like, oh my God. And I'm like, I'm a little familiar. I've been taking cold showers to prepare for this video. And...

I'm like, all right, we're in it. Let's go. And then we do, we do some abs. We do some breath work. And when I want to talk about the breath work, because that was the most like spiritual awakening moment I've ever had in my life. He does four, three, four rounds of breath work. One minute, one and a half, two, two and a half, three.

And you hold your breath for those lengths of period, the time period that I just mentioned. And we get to the second to last round and I'm at two, two and a half. I'm feeling so safe with him. And I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna like not fight it. And you could have that anxiety about this, but I'm here. Let's make it happen. Hold my breath. Two and a half minutes go by. That man on the dot, my sister was there timing the two and a half on the dot. He goes, and time. And my sister's like,

She didn't even say anything. It was 229.9. And it was like, this dude, another level. And then we do the three minute and I hold my breath for three minutes straight. It feels like 30 seconds. It flies by. I open my eyes and I have just this insane euphoric feeling. I don't know if I was dying and maybe that's what you're supposed to feel when you die. I had this insane euphoric feeling. I open my eyes. I see my sister. I have my cameraman. I have Wim. And like this feeling of just

purity of love

And I'm just like gratitude and nothing else mattered. It was like, it was almost like I was like born into this exact moment and I knew nothing about the universe and it was just how you're supposed to feel. It was crazy. And that was a very life-changing moment. I've done the breathing a few times since then. I probably need to get back and do it. But that and the ice bath, like the man's onto something and I don't know what happened inside my brain, but that was the most content and like happy feeling ever.

like a different type of happy. It was just, I had to share that. It was a crazy experience. It really does clear your mind in a crazy way. If you do some forced breath work, Wim Hof breathing, whatever you want to call it. The last time, have you ever done it and passed out?

No, I've seen people. Okay. So I've, I've pushed it a little bit hard in a couple of breathwork classes in Austin and, um, you sort of come back around and you've got whoever the facilitator is with that hand on your chest, sort of chilling you out. And they do something with your neck. Maybe it's to do with your nerve here or the blood flow here. I'm not really too sure. Uh, but I always see the same fucking cat.

Every time I do it, this fucking cat pops up. It's just this face looking at me. What? I don't know what it is. That's the DMT being released in your brain, bro. Maybe it is. Would you... Are you ever going to pivot into psychedelic bro era? I did ayahuasca every day. I haven't done one. Oh, I did ayahuasca. That's Connor Murphy right there. Yeah, well, exactly. Drinking semen. So... I haven't tried that yet. Don't. So...

psychedelics. I have friends that have done it. I have people that are close to my life that have done it and no judgment whatsoever. Cool. Do whatever you want. For me, I feel that I almost have a little bit of an enlightened mindset as is that I feel like I've awakened from

Reaching a point of peace when I left Lehigh in 2018 when I was 18 years old and I quit I had this like super spiritual awakening moment where I could not describe it, but I could like sense your energy in like the most pure way. I'm like you are full like I don't I couldn't just I don't know what language I needed to speak it, but I'm like you're full you're half you're like I've sounded I thought I was fucking crazy dude. I probably was.

And I feel like that sort of opened my mind and like, well, maybe, maybe the mind is, is capable of just naturally experiencing all these crazy phenomenon things. And I feel like I also have this, this undoubtedly belief in myself that maybe a psychedelic would open up for somebody else and like gratitude, like they'd open up. And I feel like I have a good base of that.

And I don't want to fuck with it. So that's like my mindset of the same of the SSRIs. Exactly. It's like my mind. I'm happy. I love my life. Like beautiful fiance, family's healthy. Got a dog, got a house. Like my life is awesome. I truly am grateful. My fans are amazing. They support me, all that stuff. So it's like one of those things where it's like, if I do this,

There's a chance that it goes there. There's always I've heard you hear the horror stories of it going south. And I'm like, why would I mess this up? Everything's good. Riding so high. If I if I find a need where I need an awakening, I don't know, maybe. But like, I also like I've literally never done anything stronger than smoking pot when I was like a teenager, like once. And I've never done any any.

brain type of never touch Adderall never done cocaine nothing at all I probably will die never doing it which I'm fine with but I just I'm very like protective of where my mind is and the trajectory of how my mind develops naturally and stuff where I'm like I don't need I don't need something to alter to I don't need more I'm now I'm already I'm on that ride on my own I don't need that kick

Maybe I'll be a billionaire if I took some of the crazy shit. Or maybe you'll turn into Connor Murphy and have a- It's one of those things you don't want to risk. A total breakdown. Yeah. Just going back to the getting lean thing, there was this news article I saw recently

YouTube is to limit recommendations of certain health and fitness videos to teenagers, including those which may idealize certain body types. It says 13 to 17 year old users will still be able to search for and view fitness related content, but will not be encouraged into repeated viewing of similar videos. YouTube says it is acting because of concerns that repeated exposure to such material can lead young people to develop negative beliefs about themselves.

The platform says this will no longer be offered for teens when they can view certain types of content, including videos that compare physical features and idealizes some types over others, videos idealizing specific

fitness levels or body weights, videos displaying social aggression in the form of non-contact fights and intimidation. The measures were being taken after its Youth and Families Advisory Committee found that teens are more likely than adults to form negative beliefs about themselves when seeing repeated messages about ideal standards in content they consume online. What do you think of that? I think it's very stupid because...

And if YouTube's watching, I love you guys as a platform, but this is dumb because think about it like this. Okay. Fitness might influence a teenager to do steroids. Let's say I have a video coming out on that. Um, but the music videos that are dudes swinging guns or I don't know, idolizing weird things that like, there's always conspiracy behind like crazy, you know, music videos and stuff. And I don't care what it looks like, but that can just as well.

influence a teenager to go try smoking pot or go hang out with the wrong crowd or something like that. You can be influenced by literally anything. And also I think this is why I don't think it's going to happen because the amount of money that fitness CPMs in fitness are well, they're not the best, but they're probably one of the top. They're not tech or finance. They're not tech or finance, but they're right there, dude. Like right below it on the next year. So many supplement CPGs. Exactly. So yeah,

YouTube will be shooting themselves in the foot because there's so much content that's just good healthy. I wonder how much is derived from 13 to 17 year olds age brackets. That's a good point. Or everyone's just going to lie about their age and nothing's going to change and they're going to make new accounts. I do think you're right that...

I think the advertising is way too... They're way too lucrative on advertising on these videos. I mean, dude, I'm getting like 5 million views, 1 million to 5 million views on every video. You're going to cut my ads? Good for you. You're going to make no money. I'm going to go freaking start a Patreon. Yeah. The negative beliefs thing seems odd given...

given that we just went through a body positivity movement that was glorifying people being big. So it's like, okay, so not only are we glorifying fat people, we're also now limiting your ability to see people who might actually be fit.

I mean, think about just think about the entire generation, mine into yours. I was the start of it with sort of Ziz, Matt Ogus, then bleeding down, I guess, into the Matt Does Fitness, sort of Mike Thurston type stuff now into your era. All of us were brought into this because of YouTube. The weird thing is, is that one, I have asked my YouTube rep.

Like, I'm like, please tell me this is false. And he's like... Oh, so you brought this up? I straight up sent it to YouTube, one of the employees, and I was like, there's no way this is true, right? Like, I'm like, and if it becomes true, you need to tell me ASAP. He didn't think it's, like, real. He was like, he said, first thing he said was cap. And then I was like, okay, what color hat? I'm kidding. That's a stupid joke. And...

so he says like he thinks that and then I send him that article that you just read and I'm like are you sure and he's like I just I don't know he's like it just sounds like it wouldn't be like plausible but hypothetically let's say it does this is what's going to happen in the fitness industry there's going to be a huge divide of people that

I don't want to say that they're not intelligent enough, but they're not, let's say, social networking aware enough to adapt. To be able to bypass it. They're going to be like, oh, fuck this. I'm going to keep doing what I want. And it's just going to hurt themselves. It's a really dumb mindset. How many people that are 13 to 17 are watching your videos? Dude, as I get bigger, it's getting more and more. Interesting. There's like kids, I'll be at the grocery store and they're like,

I see you on TikTok and stuff. And I'm like, all right, I'm watching. I'm like, what videos are you watching, bro? You're skinny. But it's like one of those things where, one, I find it hard to believe that'll happen. And if it does, I have the believability in myself that it's like, I'm good. I'll pivot, bro. Come at me. I don't know how big your...

13 to 17 year old fan bases. But I don't know. It's an interesting challenge because I would have been very disempowered, I think, watching YouTube and seeing fitness advice from the internet online.

It's also, it's such woolly language. What are you going to do like Jeff Nippard? Like is Jeff Nippard going to be censored? Because it's evidence-based lifting saying that. It's like, okay, then in every video, I'm just going to feature, I'm going to call a doctor and say, this is evidence, right? Yes. Thank you there. Check. Send in for review. Again. There's going to be, if there's a rule, there's a way around it. That's how I see it. What? You've done a million videos with Ronnie Coleman. Yes.

I get sad when I see him. Okay. I mean, I know he's still got the sort of yeah, buddy thing, but he's also largely a man that's crippled. Yeah. You know, is it tough being around him? It was something definitely like to get used to at first, because I've shot five videos with him total. So I'm with him, you know, and I was a young LA before Jim shark and I would be at events with him. I always loved seeing him. Um, there's been a few times where it's been like genuinely, like I felt, I felt very bad.

And the few times where it's like I complete forget and I think almost he's forgetting. He's just like having he's just Ronnie, you know, he's very authentic, which is awesome. I have a blast with him every time I see him. The one time where I was like, damn, bro, this is like kind of brutal like to see because I mean, he's a legend. He was obviously not cripple at one point and fully thriving and.

It was when we were at his gym in Texas, in Dallas, Metroflex Arlington. And the equipment is so damn congested there. And he trains there all the time, so clearly he does not mind. But...

His inability to maneuver from just like one area to the next and everybody's like pausing and waiting. It's not exactly disabled access approved. Oh, not at all. It was like horrible setup for him. But like, obviously, it's his home base where he likes to be. So he feels good. But it was like, it's like,

like, do you, do you, do you want to help them? Do you want to like, Hey, you need help getting better patronizing. I don't want to, I don't want to feel, I always, my biggest thing with anybody I'm ever with, I don't care if you're fucking Dwayne, the rock Johnson or Joe Schmo down the street. I always go into my shoots or like meeting people with just like,

what's up bro like there's no like no difference because i no i i don't i don't want anyone to ever feel like i look at them in a certain way or i'm i'm idolizing over idolizing them and that bothers them everyone idolizes me whatever like you know what i mean so i was just he's ronnie's a dude you know whatever so i don't i don't want to push boundaries too far and then one time another time we were on a boat and stuff we're on a yacht it was ronnie's fucking yacht in dubai

He was just chilling downstairs and he was very content. And I was like, Ronnie, you want anything? Very chill, chilling. And I'm obviously, I don't know what's going through his head. And it's one of those things like, you know, back in the day, maybe he'd be up there fucking fist pumping and shit. He was always like a very extroverted person still is to a degree. But I think it's one of those things where he, when you talk to him and you talk to him out, I asked him, do you have any regrets? Any regrets in like what you've done? And he's like, no, no regrets. Do you think that's true?

I mean, he tells me his only regret is that he didn't go for seven or eight reps on his 800 pound squat. And then he says, yeah, buddy. And I'm like, I believe it, but I think maybe you never know. You know, I think you should have a lot. How much pain is he in day to day? Do you know? I've heard many things. I just, I don't know. Yeah. Cause I'd heard that he said my pain is always at an eight out of 10 and I take the maximum dose of whatever that painkiller is. That's super, super strong. He's doing a lot of stem cells. Okay. And he says with every treatment, it gets better and better and better. That's good. So.

you know yeah it's uh it is it is uncomfortable to see dude uh and it's so odd as well because you've got jay cutler who is as far as i can tell just

perfectly functional. We were with Phil Heath. I've talked to him about it, yeah. We were with Phil Heath today. Phil Heath's healthy. Again, yeah, playing basketball, dicking around. So... I think that's the importance of realizing, I mean, right now, I have a slipped disc in my back and like, I'm not able to squat. I mean, I could if I like, gunned to my head. But like, shouldn't squat, shouldn't deadlift, all that stuff, yeah. But it's those type of things where

You know, when people say like, careful squatting, careful deadlifting, you're going to mess up your knees, you're gonna mess up your back. And you're like, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm invincible until you wake up and you're like, shit, I just, I broke something. You gotta be careful. Backs and knees, man. Backs and knees are two things that you just gotta be careful.

super, super sensitive with. The end of my hardcore fitness career was two bulging discs in my back. And then I just thought, right, okay. It was uncomfortable for maybe three or four years for me to realize, okay, you can't do what you used to do responsibly. You can do it, but you're

just rolling the dice. What did you do to fix it? Just stop doing things like that? So Stu McGill's big three. I've heard that. Yep. So you should speak to Stu about back pain. I can intro you if you want. Please. He'd love to speak to you. He is the number one lower back pain specialist on the planet. He's done a lot of these studies, the original studies at Waterloo that...

much of sort of back pain science was built on i get the sense that the field is continuing to progress now uh i haven't spoken to him about my stuff in a little while tapped into him before i went and did stem cells in medellin last year i was just about to ask you have you ever done stem cells i did stem cells what's your experience like bioaccelerator okay i know them so columbia yep yeah medellin um

Psychologically neutral, quite an enjoyable experience. The service is very good. Physically, very rough. Really? So for me, because I got site injections, so I had intra-articular into the shoulder capsule and my rotator cuff. There's no anesthetic. Into the quad tendon above and below the patella.

and then into my Achilles that I ruptured straight into the tendon. So the ones that I got, I got every lumbar facet joint down my back. I got one intradiscal injection into one of the bulging discs. One of them was so bad that they couldn't, they weren't even prepared to do it. The other one they did, but you're under general anesthetic for that. So you just go to sleep, you wake up and you're like, oh sweet, that's all been done. But

The ones in my knee and the knots, the one in my shoulder was maybe an eight out of 10 page. The one into my knee, I'm bouncing off the bed, screaming the nurse left this nurse who's conditioned at seeing this stuff. Cause it's a tiny little tendon like that, that this guy is trying to fit viscous fluid into. Yeah.

And you think, oh, at least that's the pain over and done with. And then the inflammation response comes. And it is, I had to walk like the tin man out of fucking whatever that movie is. And I can't bend my knees.

Oh, for days. I was there. Do you know Aljamain Sterling? He was the bantamweight or flyweight, whatever the super lightweight thing in the UFC. He was the champion and he got his wrists done when he was there. He got his neck and his wrists done. So he was my lab partner, my clinic partner for the week. His wrists hurt so much he couldn't pick up a phone. So the weight of a phone was so much that it caused his wrists to be in a ton of pain. So basically-

Pretty uncomfortable, but it's a unique category of pain because you know that it's in service of making you better. So almost all pain, you put your hand over a flame and you know that you're going to need a skin graft. You break your leg and you wonder whether or not you're going to ever be able to walk the same again. But this pain, as long as you have faith in the doctors, which I did, you go, this is

kind of like the suffering that you go through before something great happens on the other side of it so again you know one of the themes today has been the story that you tell yourself largely determines your experience of the thing that you're going through so the story i'm telling myself is i'm screaming bouncing off this bed but there was no fear it wasn't wrapped in terror or worry or anxiety it's just straight pain yeah i'm all right i'll i'll

I'll shout and scream and call the doctor a couple of names. So that was interesting for me. Stu McGill's big three, I did for a long time. I mean, I've done thousands of hours of that one routine that he came up with. I've done it.

around the world. I've done it on a paddle board. I've done it in hotel rooms. I've done it in my home. I've done it everywhere. I can show you. So that's helped. And then his main thing is he causes people, advises people to keep a neutral spine. So he calls it spinal hygiene. So the book is Back Mechanic by Stu. It's a little bit expensive. It's about 60 bucks, but it's really good. And in it, what he's advising is don't bend at the waist when you need to tie your shoes. If you're brushing your teeth,

uh, at the basin. Most people just hinge from the hips, but you can actually support by having one hand to brush your teeth. And the other can actually be relieving a little bit of the weight by putting your hand on your thigh or putting your hand on the basin. And he's gotten advice for how you get up and get down off the ground without going into spinal flexion. So the whole goal is to just get your back to chill out. Um, but it's a very, especially if you had, did you have a fallen back attack? Was it a slip disc where you were locked?

No, no. Okay. I like woke up and just like could not bend backwards. Okay. So if you, even going through that, his...

protocol is just so slow and kind of frustrating. But now I have no pain. I can sit and stand for as long as I want. I don't deadlift, but step-ups, lunges, reverse lunges, walking lunges, leg press, all of that is fine. And I'm sure I probably could squat if I wanted. I just think...

I think I can achieve the same gains without doing that. So yeah, I pivot. One of the other things I was interested in asking you, you've worked out with a variety of non-typically fit people, like inmates and gang members and stuff like that. Yeah.

Who are some of the sort of secret fittest guys that you've been around that you wouldn't have thought of? Oh, construction workers. Right? Dude. I mean, I found the strongest ones that exist, basically. Where do you find strong construction workers? You hire a really good producer. Right. And on Instagram.

um they were they do construction and they were freaks of nature definitely uh on some sauce definitely not natty okay i'd say another one would be the ex-convicts i mean that's like stereotypical they work out a ton they were very they're they're more just jacked big hands on the construction workers i imagine monstrous hands you know it's really you know it's really uh

who has really good strength is like arm wrestlers. At least their arms, like instinct of the, the sheer strength of Devin layers hands. I tried to, and even David laid one against him, like two hands. You go, dude, you're never getting anywhere. Arm wrestlers are built differently. Like their tendons have just like,

calcified probably from all the scar tissue. I did one arm wrestling competition. I could, I was walking like a T-Rex for like a week because I could not move my arms. And for them to do hours and hours and hours, I can't imagine what their tendons look like. Dude, that's so cool. Jesse James West, ladies and gentlemen, dude, I appreciate the heck out of you. Where should people go? Guys, check out the YouTube channel, Jesse James West and stay relentless. Heck yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you, bro. Thank you for having me. Seriously.

We did it. All right. You guys got my check? No. No offense. Get away. Get offense.