MAGA Granny Refuses J6 Pardon
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Hey folks, it's Rick. I want to thank you so much for listening and watching the Lincoln Project podcast. It means the world to us that you give us your time and your attention and your focus while we talk about the pro-democracy movement in this country, even in this time of tremendous national peril. This is not an easy moment for people. I understand and we understand at the Lincoln Project, sometimes you feel

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It still has hope and optimism. We are going to fight a long fight against this guy. We're going to fight a long fight against the evils that his administration is going to try to do. We're going to stand up and speak out because the one thing, the day you lose is the day you shut up in the face of evil. The day you lose your power to fight is

is the day you shut your mouth when they're doing the things they're doing. And whether it's crazy or cruel or performative or dangerous or illegal or unconstitutional, all of those things require you as a citizen to stand up, keep fighting, stay in the fight. If you walk away from this, there's nowhere to run. You can't run to Canada. You can't run to England. You can't run to Italy. Running away is not an option.

for the vast majority of Americans. The idea that this country deserves people who will fight for it, I think is still absolutely central to our mission here at the Lincoln Project and central to my mission

as one of that lonely tribe of former Republican conservatives who believe that the rule of law and limited government and restraints on state power and also honor and integrity and dignity and character and compassion were not anathema to conservative values but central to them. I believe in this country at the most fundamental level

I sometimes feel like the greatest superpower Trump has is to make people become their worst self, to make people become their weakest self, to hang something in front of them, whether it's political ambition or financial opportunity or media attention or social media power, and tell them all you have to do is give me everything. All you have to do is give up. All you have to do is bend the knee, shut up, shut your mouth, do what I want.

For a lot of people, that's worked out in the short term. But it eventually bites them all. Everything Trump touches dies still holds up pretty damn well. Eventually, the compromises break you as who you are. They break you as a person. They break you as an American. They break you as a citizen. They break you as a father or a husband or a wife or a sister or a brother or a mother or a father. You are not allowed to give up because all those things are valuable.

They're more valuable than politics, more valuable than Donald Trump's daily lie fest. They're more valuable than all the evil they're trying to do. And yes, a lot of what they're trying to do is overtly evil. It's overtly racial. It's cruel. It's insane. They have the power right now to do so much of it because they won an election. They will not triumph, however, if you keep fighting. They will not succeed if you stay focused.

You can't shut up. You got to stand up every day. It's not easy. I get it, folks. Believe me. As I've said this a hundred times, I'd rather be writing books and watching my granddaughter grow up than every day being out there having to punch this fucker in the face. I would love for a world where we don't have to think about him every day, but right now we do. Got to keep pushing. Got to keep fighting. Folks,

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Your enemy is well-trained, well-equipped, and battle-hardened. There is not a liberal America, any conservative America, the United States of America. Good night, and good luck. Hey, folks, it's Rick Wilson. Welcome back to the Lincoln Project Podcast. It's been a little bit of a break. I've been down with the flu for a couple of weeks, but I am back with you today, and I am absolutely delighted to be joined today by... Actually, let me take a quick detour before I tell you who it is.

I'm a practicing stoic, and I really believe that courage in yourself is the first virtue. And it's so rare these days. It's so unusual to see courage. It's easier to bend the knee. It's easier to look down and look away. It's easier to just pretend everything's fine. But the example of courage we have with us today is a woman you may have heard of. Her name is Pamela Hephild.

And Pamela is also referred to as the MAGA granny. She was one of the folks that was there on January 6th. She paid a price for it, got sentenced, 60-day sentence. And at some point along the way, courage became a part of her character that rose up above what had led her to be there on that day. She's one of the only people, in fact, the only person I know of who has said, no, thanks, I don't want the pardon.

I did it. I accept responsibility. So Pamela, I want to welcome you to the program today. Thank you so, so much for coming on. It's an honor to have you here. And I just want to say, I want to ask first, what did you believe that day when you were in Washington? What was in your heart and your head that you believed that day that led you to D.C. on January 6, 2021? Oh, well...

with all the gaslighting they had done to me, I was on the fence a little, but I believe the election had been stolen because the message, the Democrats are wanting to turn this into a communist country. No way would I want that. And not being schooled in politics and knowing what's in the disinformation that was out there.

I just listened to these people. You know, they're not homeless people. These are people with two PhDs. A president isn't going to lie. So I was still on the edge. But every time I asked them for any information so I can have evidence, they would gaslight me. Right. So you end up in D.C. that day and Trump says, we're going to go down to the Capitol.

And so tell us a little bit about what happened with you on that day. So we know the story of where you ended up and why you ended up getting eventually arrested and sentenced. Well,

I had gotten there too late because, you know, still under the care of a doctor, I had cancer. And so I got up too late. I got there about 1030 and I couldn't get through that crowd because I had stitches and I knew by accident somebody could bump into me. And I thought, what now? What do I do? So I started walking around asking people, is there any other speakers today? They said, no, we're hearing that Trump's going down to the Capitol.

First thought was, why is he going to the Capitol? He's just had a talk. But I thought that'd be great. I'll get there before everybody else. Now, people call me a citizen journalist. I am not a journalist. I'm not a citizen. I just love videotaping everything. Right. I thought I'll get there before everybody else. So.

When I got to the Capitol, I turned around and I saw a whole bunch of men coming towards me. I thought, maybe they're the Proud Boys. So I went up to them and I said, are you the Proud Boys? Yes, ma'am. I said, are we going inside the Capitol? Oh, my God.

Because they're not going to break the law. They're going to be with Trump. You know, I could have died when I watched my video later. And they said, no, ma'am, we're not going inside. But I followed them for about an hour. Now, I can't remember what side I'm on. Is that west side or the east side? You'd be on the west front, on the west front.

So I'm following them. And then I talked to one of their camera ladies and I said, is anybody going to be with Trump? Anybody going inside? One person said no, but she says, oh, yeah, some of them have a plan to go inside. And I thought, oh, good. I'm going to get up front. I'm going to find out who these people are. And I'm going to because I want to videotape. I want to be by Trump. And I thought they were there because, you know, his famous statement, stand by, stand back and stand by. Sure. They were there to protect him.

And so here I am, so naive. They never came up to where I was. I ended up next to William Dunphy, talking to an officer, and he's telling me they're negotiating that they're going to move the barriers and let us up on the steps. And I said, oh, that's wonderful. Then I see these big black, those black cars they drive in. So I thought, Tom's coming.

But there's more to the story of it. That's kind of what happened when I got to the Capitol. Right. This is a message from our sponsor, Intuit TurboTax. Taxes was waiting to get your money back, which turned into worrying about getting your money back. Now, taxes is matching with a TurboTax expert who can do your taxes today and help you get up to a $4,000 refund advance loan fast.

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So you were one of the people who was arrested for trespass, I think it was, at the Capitol. And you got sentenced to 60 days. Am I correct on that? Yeah, correct. Okay. And you served it, right? You did your... Oh, yeah. Yeah. In Dublin Prison, California. Dublin Prison, California. So I'm sure it was kind of a shock to...

Did your trial strike you as as excited as like a political witch hunt? Or was it a was it a straight criminal trial where where a jury of your peers found you guilty? Because a lot of these people say it was a it was a witch hunt. Oh, it's a rigged and all that. They lie about everything. No, no. My I had all the do. They all had due process. All you got to look up is the criminal recordings. I mean, the court recordings. No.

No, it was a normal. I had a good attorney, great judge. I knew I was guilty. That's why I pleaded guilty. I mean, what are you going to do, go to trial and say I had a right to be there? I mean, come on. That sounds great.

So as you're there witnessing all this stuff, you had a consciousness you understood at the end that when you get arrested, you're in court, that you had done what they said you did. And you took responsibility for it. Unlike a lot of them who said, oh, I'm a political prisoner. I'm this. I'm that. You all went there that day, I think. And you sort of talked about it. You guys were in this disinformation gaslighting bubble from Trump himself to Fox, all these other things.

What was the moment that changed you, Pam? I'm curious, like, when did you go, oh my God, I'm in prison because these blanks lied to me. I can't, what was the moment that sort of like shook you out of that disinformation spell? Actually, it didn't occur for maybe six months after coming back from prison. I started the first J6 program

Space on Twitter now X and all the j6ers and the Republicans and the families came in my space was huge Yeah, trying to support them if the government was overreaching them. I was still mega I was still a victim and then what happened? Ryan Samsel a gateway pundit put out an article that he had lost his eye in jail So I knew people and who to contact and

And got back with everybody saying, hey, this is a lie. His gift sending go went up to $40,000. He had not lost his eyeball. And he's lying. They got mad at me. And then I brought some more facts. Because I was researching. I started researching. I want to know both sides. That way you can make an informed right decision. And every time I brought them facts, they would yell at me. And finally...

They kicked me out and started a smear campaign against me. So I started the J6 gaslighting space and all the sedition hunters, real researchers, people like yourself would come in and give me facts. I remember we talked at one point. So that did it. They're lying about everything. We need to push back on their lying narrative. Well, and that is, I mean, the big lie of the stolen election led to the

medium-sized and big lies about the about january 6th and about uh how these folks were treated in in the both both in the judicial process and in prison because a lot of them have described their prison experiences like it's worse than a russian gulag it's worse than a nazi death camp it's so bad and these guys are basically mostly middle tier prisoners

So it was their lying that finally caught up and shook you out of that bubble of disinformation. That's very interesting. So this week, obviously, we saw Donald Trump come out with a blanket pardon for everyone who's so far been convicted in the January 6th attack.

And you immediately were like one of the first, you're the only person who said, no, I did it. You took responsibility. And we've talked a little bit about, about, about your courage on this, but I want to ask you a question. All those January six people that, that were guilty were found guilty, found guilty because they were guilty who are out now. They've learned nothing from this. They've learned nothing from this experience. Well,

What do you think they're going to do and be now that they've been released by Trump and I think sort of empowered by Trump because they've been freed from a sentence they deserved? Exactly. It's so frightening. They've been given a green light. So now those that are going to go out there and peacefully protest against anything that Trump is trying to do.

uh get out there and we go out there and protest now it's going to be very dangerous i'm so frightened it's so scared for the people that are going to try to protest uh it's they haven't changed they didn't do anything wrong so now they're more empowered look what they did in the past it's going to be worse

Yeah, and the core people, the Enrique Terrios, the Stuart Rhodes types, the guys who were overtly violent, the guys who were leading, you know, the guys who were caught on tape bear spraying and hitting cops with clubs and baseball bats and hockey sticks and flagpoles and iron bars, right?

They're all out now. They're all out on the street. And, you know, Stuart Rhodes was at the Capitol yesterday, you know, which shocked me. What did you feel when you saw, you know, one of the ringleaders of this entire operation being squired around the Capitol like he's royalty?

All this is like I can't wrap it around my mind. Am I watching a movie? Is this really happening? It's unbelievable. Of all people, when we have a plaque that's been approved for the officers to be put up in there and they don't put that up, but they let them in. Oh, I'm so angry. I'm glad I'm not in front of these people right now. How dare you? You know, I just guess it.

I think as one should be. I mean, I was talking about this last night on another show. And the idea that you have these members of Congress, many of whom were scared to death of the mob that was in the Capitol, who were scared to death of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers and the rest of the crazies that had stormed into that building. They thought they were going to die.

who at the same time they were saved by officers like Mike Fanone and Danny Hodges and Harry Dunn and Akino Ganel and many, many, many, many others. It just strikes me as something that is so dark and so hypocritical because they know that if they say something in agreement with

with the facts of the matter, they're going to get ostracized by their movement. You lived that same experience. You said anything critical and all of a sudden you were thrown off the island. Yeah. Well, they got to decide what's more important in this country or their reputation or what somebody's going to do to them. I don't like bullies and so I'll stand up to you in one second. Where's your integrity? What's more important to have peace of mind and know you're doing the right thing than

Let Trump keep pushing you around and telling you what to do? No, it's not going to happen with me. Well, God bless you, because you know what? You know, you are you are you are somebody who look, I I understand how intense that devotion to Trump was by a lot of the people there, yourself included. And and and that and I understand also how how.

strong that message that they beat into people's heads for a generation now of if you vote for Joe Biden, you're voting for Marxism or communism or socialism or whatever ism. As I always like to say, if Barack Obama and Joe Biden were such great communists, they did a terrible job at it because we're still a capitalist country. That idea that you could be thrown out of that

Look, as somebody who left the Republican Party, was essentially thrown out because I opposed Trump as a conservative. You saw that same thing, that social ostracization that happened to you. People you thought were your allies, your friends. Once you asked them to believe in the truth rather than just in Trump, they turned on you.

Yeah, I'm glad they did. I'm glad they did. You want to be a part of that kind of thinking and ideology and people that are lying and dividing people and destroying our country? My hat's off to you. Stay with them. I'm not going to. These people, we have the facts and evidence that the J6 narrative has to continue to be

pushed back on that is all propaganda none of it is true not one thing they say from you can put out what they say like some there's so much right it's not true and i have gotten the evidence and you want to stay in denial for your own benefit for your own what money prestige shame on you shame on you

That is an instinct that people in this country have lost, I think, in our politics is shame. And Trump kind of demands that of these people. It's sort of a demand that they be shameless, that they be unafraid to lie to themselves and lie to everybody else, which I think at the end...

You're an outlier here. You are a lone voice, I think, in this whole group that has done the right thing. In America, it says a terrible thing about our country that what you've done is so rare. I really do admire it, Pamela. I think it is remarkable.

So tell us a little bit about yourself, Pamela. How did you become involved in MAGA? What's your story? What's your life? Because I don't think a lot of people know more about you than the MAGA granny.

Well, I'm a retired alcoholic drug counselor. I break my anonymity and we're not supposed to do it in public, but everybody knows. I've been a sober member of AA for 45 years now. God bless you. God bless you. My focus before getting involved in it was always doing something to help the heroin addicts and alcoholics get clean and sober. And what I did after I retired, I volunteered for TV community programs.

show as a volunteer to help heroin addicts in the community. And mega girls had heard about me. Now, mega girls were in every

state they're not a per se organization but they all have their mega girls they said we heard that you uh do interviews and videos can you come out and help us i thought oh that would be fun i'm bored i'm retired you know and i didn't know anything about politics i don't even i relied on my family i don't read the books and i got started with that and then i

Saw a video with Ammon Bundy. Are you familiar with Ammon Bundy? Absolutely. Oh, God. I didn't know much about him. He's a handful. Oh, I followed him for a year and a half.

until they went into a hospital without a mask and I yelled at them and they got mad at me and kicked me out and said you're a fed I said well that's good yes I'll be a fed but what you're doing is wrong and they were going to officials homes I mean come on and then I found out his background I said I can't be a part of this this is far far right garbage and then uh 20 you know the election came around and

But you start to feel like a family. Now I'm talking to the lieutenant governor. I'm watching Ammon Bundy's family go and talk to her and all these far right senators were at his meeting. Why would they be lying to me? It's not like I'm listening to homeless people.

Right. These are people with two PhDs. And so I just fell into all the propaganda and what they were sharing. Oh, you know, now I look back. Oh, my God. I lost my critical thinking. I'm vulnerable. I'm like the average person that's not educated in politics. I'm educated in addiction recovery. And I didn't know and I didn't do any research. I didn't know there was a disinformation war going on out there.

And we need to bring that more up front, let people know you've got to check the back checkers today. It's so bad. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, my story. Well, I do. I just I think the arc of what you discovered about yourself in this is that, you know, every time your instinct to do the right thing happens.

touched you or woke you up a little bit, I think you got closer and closer to realizing what that disinformation matrix was around you. Because it turns out it wasn't about communism. It turns out it wasn't about socialism. It turns out it wasn't about

some crazy conspiracy theory. Turns out it was about a bunch of people who set out that day to overthrow an election and to use violence to do it. And you realized it. And again, it is so rare in America and so admirable to see somebody take responsibility when they've done something and to change their life around it. And I think in some ways that sort of reflects like the AA journey for people. It is. 45 years, you've had to be

self-critical and you've had to understand the circumstances that would be problematic for you. And I think there's almost like an approach to that in helping some of these folks in that MAGA bubble deprogram themselves or reprogram themselves to be functional Americans again. It's been difficult because you know the famous statement from Trump, they're coming after me, but they're really coming after you. That's-

people. I'm your savior now. And I've even been sent by God. Oh my God, that's the worst. Oh, I'm sorry. Matthew 21, 8 and 9, I believe it is. Don't think you're sent by God. No, I don't think so.

Yeah. That's a little presumptuous. So then the gaslighting, you know, with Trump and the love bombing. Remember on January 6th? Sure. You're good people. We love you. Oh, my God. Right.

Yeah, it's all classic cult programming. Well, Pamela, I want to ask, where do you see things going forward from here? What are you going to do and what do you want to do in terms of speaking out from here? What's your dream going forward from here about your role in this ongoing dialogue about January 6th and about this movement?

Well, right now, I'd really like to get in front of Congress. I don't know if you read my letter or I haven't. I saw it. Yep. I want to read that letter. I want to see the Capitol Police officers and tell them how sorry I am for being there that day. And you are the heroes. They saved my life that day. I wasn't breathing when they knocked me down on the steps, stepped on my head. Two officers pulled me up and put me behind them. I would have been dead.

And they need our honor and our respect. And then after that, if I can be invited to the Democrat Party to speak, anywhere to help, within reason, you know. Sure, sure. Just keep my finger in there a little bit. Well, Pamela, I can't put you in front of Congress, but I could probably connect you.

Because I've become friends with some of the guys that were there that day. And I could probably connect you with that. I'll talk to some people and we'll see. Maybe we'll have another show where we get you guys all together and have that conversation. Because I'm very moved by your commitment to that. And I think that's an amazing, amazing and very human thing to do. Well, thank you. I have been contacted by someone. Okay. From Congress. Oh, good. I'm waiting to see.

I can't put out the name yet. Sure, sure. I don't know. Keep it on the level. I want the world to hear the truth about January 6th. And they ruined that word, truth. Not their truth. The facts. Right, right. Well, I think...

Keep speaking out, Pamela. Keep telling the truth about this. And keep telling your story because I think it is incredibly inspirational, incredibly important. And I'm so proud to know you. And I'm so proud to call you a friend. And I really hope for all the best for you. And you let me know if you need anything. And let's keep this conversation going because I really believe that courage is contagious. And one person showing it can spread to another and another and another. So thank you so much.

I said historic too. Thank you so much, Pamela, for coming on the Lincoln Project podcast today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. We will talk again very soon. It's been an honor. Thank you. Thank you. The Lincoln Project podcast is a Lincoln Project production. Executive produced by Whitney Hayes, Finn Howe, and Joseph Warner-Chamberlain. Produced and edited by Whitney Hayes and Jeff Taylor. And good luck.

Hey, everybody, if you'd like to get in touch, if you have suggestions for a guest or a show topic or just general questions, our email is podcast at LincolnProject.us. That's podcast at LincolnProject.us.