David Cross on the Intersection of Comedy and Politics
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And... Oh, it's not that kind of podcast. I'll tell you the one I used today. But this is somebody else's podcast I'm doing. Sorry, I end my podcasts with a question for my daughter. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well-trained, well-equipped, and battle-hardened. There is not a liberal America, any conservative America, in the state of America.

Good night and good luck. Hey folks, it's Rick Wilson. Welcome back to the Lincoln Project Podcast. I am absolutely delighted today because we have a very special guest. You know him from Arrested Development, Grammy Award winner, Emmy Award winner, contributor and writer for Tenacious D, writer, performer, stage, screen, the whole thing. David Ellis has a fantastic podcast called Since It's Working Overtime, and it's currently on tour with The End of the Beginning of the End Tour.

Welcome, David. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. And I look forward to spending a half hour or so with you here. And I want to start out by asking you a question that I've noticed from working with folks in Hollywood entertainment over the last couple of decades. A lot of celebrities just absolutely these days are terrified of politics. They kind of want to

hide their head in the sand about what's happening around them. You don't seem to, you don't seem to have as much fear or difficulty with that as other folks. No, I, I, I never have. I mean, that's, uh, that's been not something I've, I've had to work at or anything like that. It's just the way I'm built, you know? Um, right. And, uh,

And yeah, I think people are, you know, there's always a handful of people who are vocal and a number of people who are not for various reasons. Usually, at least in the entertainment industry, they want to keep working. And sometimes they're just not as bothered. Sometimes, you know, they're not.

They're blissfully ignorant, I'd say. And that sometimes people are... I've certainly worked with a number of people who are pro-right-wing, I don't know about extremists, but they certainly are happy that Trump or Bush or another Bush are president. So I don't know. I'm just not one of those people. And I always knew that...

When I was first starting out and I was working as a feature or a opener on the road. Right. And I always knew that the headliner was going to suck if they, if I came off stage and they're like, man, kid, you got, you got some guts. You got a lot of balls. So I knew I was like, oh, well, you're probably not very good. I mean, yeah.

Is part of that fearless is just what stand-up requires? Because I've always admired people who do stand-up. And you've been in the stand-up fight for a couple of decades now. You know the business. You've done this for a bit. Is that part of what you end up with that you just sort of like, I'm going to walk in the room, I'm going to do my thing, fuck it?

Yeah, but to answer your first question, I don't think it's required to stand up. There's lots and lots and lots and lots of good stand-up, stand-up I love and admire and respect that is not political at all. It's not necessarily one's place to do that. I think it's a great place to do that. If you're of that mind, then you should be doing that. But, I mean, there's...

a hundred standups that I love that never talk politics for, but for me, and also I'm not a, a, by any stretch, a political quote unquote comic. I, right. Who does talk about topical stuff and religion and, and, and politics kind of gets in there. Um,

But it's not even half of what my set is. Not even. Right. You have kind of a narrative storytelling approach to this stuff, right? I mean, you're not – it's not just bits. You seem to have a more, like I said, a narrative style. Maybe I'm using the wrong terms of art for comedy, but you don't –

I know what I know. I don't know everything. You need to download and watch my masterclass. Clearly. QED. Obviously I do. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but I also have lots of,

you know, silly jokes, dad joke type shit, you know, stuff that would make you roll your eyes, but it's funny to me, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm not above a pun, you know, a lot of, but I do, I do that. That is kind of one of my strengths is kind of a storytelling narrative type of thing. And I have plenty. In fact, the current tour is,

I'd say might be the least political, although that may be changing in the coming days. But, you know, 30 minutes or at least 20 minutes of the opening half hour is about this one story that has nothing to do with politics. Just an embarrassing situation I found myself in. So, yeah. Like I said, I've always admired people who do stand up because I think some of the best of it is when you are kind of like,

not playing the character you play on TV, if that makes sense. I've seen comedians who are honest about their fuck-ups, their life, the ups, the downs, all that stuff. I mean, is that...

Does that vulnerability or is that, that, that willingness to be able to tell you the story of when you, when you, when you fucked up as I like to call it, it's like my Tijuana story. If I tell my Tijuana story, it's, it doesn't make me look like a hero. It makes me look like a dipshit, but it's kind of exciting and funny in that way. Yeah. And you're a hero for telling it. So, you know, you're, you're sometimes not a hero for the way you act in those moments, but if you relay this story, um,

And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of that is is present in good comedy is just being being vulnerable. And and I I think a key for really good stand up is to look ugly, both physically and spiritually. Sometimes, you know, it's weird to see.

Stand-ups who are like super cut, you know, or sexy. Stand-ups is something odd to me. Doesn't guide, doesn't compute. So tell me your story. How did you get into comedy? What was your sort of like pathway into this whole place where you found yourself as somebody who has done a lot of different things

angles and aspects of community performance. How did you start? Well, I was... Literally, the first time I did an open mic was the week before my 18th birthday in Atlanta, where I grew up in the punchline in Sandy Springs. Okay. I know Sandy Springs. Do you really? Yeah. I grew up in Roswell, so I was up the road. Sure. But... So...

I knew early on that I wanted to do something that was part of the entertainment industry umbrella. So not specifically, but I mean, I...

I was a huge Monty Python fan. And, you know, I was, I moved around a lot every single year when I was a little kid. And then I was born in Atlanta, but then settled back there when I was nine. And, you know, it was, I was awkward. It was not a great time to live.

for me uh and and roswell was a culture shock in the sense that it was very rural suburban sure back then especially back then yeah and and separate from atlanta now it's all one sprawling you know it's all one the same thing but back then it felt very very separate and um

you know, it was very white. It was very Southern Baptist. And, uh, and I stood out just physically. I mean, I, I, and I, my personality was different and whatever, but I, so, so you, the point of me saying that is that I found my like-minded friends, like every weirdo and nerd and outcast and geek and whatever does in that situation. And we would

Like some people were into, you know, weed. Some people were into metal or, you know... Right. You know, different types of music. And we were comedy geeks, you know? And I'd watch SNL and we'd imitate things and we'd write fake newspapers and just all... It was all geared towards comedy. Man. And then...

I found that I liked it and I was kind of good at it. And then I had stand-up albums. I had music albums, but I also had Richard Pryor and Jonathan Winters and Steve Martin. I had comedy albums along with Python and stuff like that. And then I...

I just knew that that was probably the thing I wanted to do. And I started going to some open mic nights and watching people and they were just terrible, like dumb, like really dumb. And, and I, I had that feeling of, Oh, I can do this in a, in a cocky way. And, uh,

At first, I wasn't right, but then I became right. I can do this. Not initially, but sticking with it. I just loved it. I loved being able to fuck with the audience, too, before they knew who I was. It was also a fun aspect of it.

You know, I think you and I are about the same age. And I think when you mentioned Monty Python, Monty Python used to come on when I was growing up in Tampa, Florida on the PBS station. Yeah. On Saturday nights. That's right. And that era of, for me, you know, like I said, we're about the same age. And my dad had things like, like,

Bob Newhart albums and, and, and Don Rickles albums and national lampoon was a big thing in my circle of guys. I think there's a, there's a, there's a certain style of like, like self, a little self, a little self critical, but funny comedy that grew out of that whole, uh,

that Python tonality of just like the world is absurd, the government is fucked, the world is fucked, laugh through it because they could take the most absurd situation and make it into something that was relatable to British culture. Do we have the same thing these days? Do we have anybody that's like that these days in America? I can't think of anybody that has that irreverence. I don't think SNL really does the same kind of thing. No, no.

No. Gosh, I don't know. I mean, as far as, I mean, there's nothing quite like, you know, but Python was also contextually important, not just, you know, it was a very kind of, especially British culture was stuffy and they hadn't even, I mean, it was like, and as a kid, I didn't get

probably half the references. Oh God, no. But I got the idea like, oh, this is a government employee. I didn't know who the real person that was modeled after was. Right. And I didn't know that what, you know, uh, what Yorkshire was like, but I could certainly imagine, oh, okay. It must be like, you know, uh, it must be like this Pittsburgh or whatever, you know? Um, and I, uh,

So I got that kind of the human aspect of it, but I don't know if there's anybody doing quite that thing. Is it harder now in this incredibly divided country to do that kind of cultural comedy these days? Because –

I feel like everybody gets easily offended on both sides of the equation by comedy in a way they might not have 20 years ago. I think that people do get offended more easily and are more vocal about it, but I don't think that has anything to do with why there isn't that kind of... I just, I think...

Perhaps there is somebody out there. There's a group of amazing writer performers and they haven't gotten their shot because some executive somewhere was like, we don't want to get in hot water. Perhaps. I don't know if that's the case. But I...

I just don't know. And I don't know what that thing would look like. I mean – It's an open question. I don't have an answer in my own head. I'm just sort of curious about it because I feel like we've gotten less tolerant on both sides of like a little bit of good natured fun with each other on every side of the political divide. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. But let's be fair to that idea, which is something like Don Rickles, you know, Good Nature Fun has turned. Right.

have been rewarded and successful and their comedy isn't good natured fun. It's like really sour and mean. And it's still kind of funny. It's in the, it's in the, it's in the, the world of, you know, I'm being funny, but there it's just, there's a, uh, a meanness to it that I don't think was tolerated before, but I also don't remember. I mean, it's, I don't know. Uh,

Yeah, it's it's there's a difference between Don Rickles and people of that era that that I do like as Puerto Ricans going like this, whatever. And right. And some of the stuff that is Rose. All right. My dog has decided to join us. Lucky you. I've got my cat doing the same thing.

It's the super villain hour with Elton. Yeah, your cat is in the 65-pound puppy who doesn't understand boundaries yet. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, my dogs are luckily old, tired, and they sleep all day when they're not running around outside. We'll be right back. And now... Hello.

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Back to the show. Yeah, so I mean, I do think, though, I mean, culture needs comedy, though, right? I mean, we need it in our cultures. I do. Like our need humor. They need comedy. They need relief valves. They need ways for society to not kill each other. Well, and beyond that, at least what comedy did for me, speaking solely from my experience, but is...

to educate and inform and, uh, uh, and to show different, uh, perspectives. And, you know, um, I mean, Voltaire, uh, I mean, that's going way back, but that's some funny, funny shit. And it's really, uh, you know,

important and shaped my way of thinking and just as much as somebody like Lenny Bruce or whatever. So, I mean, yeah, it can educate as well. Yeah. As a boring classics guy, I love like all those restoration comedies, Sheridan and Goldsmith and all those things because I

You could rewrite them for today. They got that society has these sort of tropes that play over and over again between men and women, between rich and poor people, between classes, between race, all that stuff. But to me, it's always been like a steam valve. It's always been like a way to code for what society is thinking about or worried about or doing in a way that lets you do it with a laugh, lets you do it without like,

It being overly like the overly serious contemplation of our doom, which I think is very frequent right now for good reasons, folks. I mean, don't don't mistake me, everybody. I I'm not taking the moment lightly, but I mean, there are there are things about this moment that that are inadvertently funny.

I mean, we are being ruled in this country by complete goons. And there are things about it that are comedic. Yes. I mean, yeah. The cabinet is... If you were to make a comedy movie and you were... And I'm not even trying to be funny and I'm not exaggerating. If you were to write the comic...

the people that would serve in the cabinet, it's pretty much everybody, Trump, even going back to, you know, Betsy DeVos as the... I mean, that one was like, oh, perfect, of course. That's what you would write. You would write... On the nose. You would write Matt Gaetz. You would write...

But I mean, obviously it's not funny because this isn't fiction, but yeah, you would just pick these clowns and they are there. It's a, it is, you know, it is a clown show, but it has real world, you know, effects and, you know, people are going to die. And so it's not that funny, but it is pretty much how you would script it.

I can't remember who wrote it, but one day someone said, even Gallo's humor is still humor. Yeah. You know, even Gallo's humor is still funny at times. And, you know, it's that old scene from the movie where the guy's got the noose around his neck. He's looking at the other guy and goes, first time? So, you know, growing up in Atlanta, it was a very different place at that point, but, you know,

Did you take any of the Southern sensibility out of Atlanta into your comedy as you grew up? Not sensibility so much as just observations that I made. I mean, I rejected a lot of it out of just kind of an immature, you know, rebellion against having to be there. And I was miserable. I...

I was suicidal. I mean, I hated it. I was going to quit school, run away to New York. I mean, I was miserable. People there were – I got picked on a lot. It wasn't a good place for me to be then when I was older.

I auditioned for and got into the School of the Arts and we moved into town and that was a lifesaver. I mean, truly a lifesaver, I think. And I was much happier. But I'm sorry, I forgot your question, Rick. No.

I was talking about, did you pull any of that sort of, because Atlanta at that time still was sort of the capital of the South. Yeah. In a lot of ways. And I was curious if you'd drawn any sort of the sensibility of that. Was there anything from that moment? Because my memories of Atlanta at that time, it was like starting to expand and grow. You know, it was the, it was that city too busy to hate vibe, the whole thing.

I was just curious how that influenced your writing or your comedy coming up. I mean, honestly, it was just like it informed kind of characters I did. But it wasn't – I don't think I took that to heart. I do – when I go home, I'm home a lot, and everybody except one person.

sister who's in North Carolina is still back in Atlanta. And I, and I'm there, you know, easily four times a year, uh, now got a daughter and, um, I've still got a lot of friends there. And, uh, the, you know, I, I wouldn't call it, uh, Southern sensibility outside of the,

artistic community uh um which is southern and uh and i love i have a real affinity for kind of those artsy southern uh you know music and and uh uh and the arts in the south is different it's uh

It's, I mean, the whole Athens scene back in the early 80s and the gay scene and everything was like kind of straight, friendly gay scene and gay, friendly straight scene and the intermingling of it and then the shows and, you know, the bands and comedy. Because, again, I started doing stand-up in Atlanta and it was that...

kind of sensibility I took with me and I still have and I'm trying to, you know, I hope my daughter gets a sense of that but it in the south especially it's kind of extra special. We'll be right back.

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And now back to the show. Right, right. That's what I was trying to walk around to. I didn't ask the best question of it, but I have that same sort of sense of having grown up in the South, having, there is a, it's not all the Northern cliche of what the South was in the seventies, eighties and nineties. But so you are known for Arrested Development, Tenacious D, Mr. Show. I mean, what's the project that you think shaped your career the most?

Oh, uh, Mr. Show, I would say, um, pretty easily and, and shaped it in, in many ways, not just informed what I'd be doing, but, uh, that was the first time I ever produced anything. Um, right. And, uh, and that's its own, uh, set of lessons you have to learn. Um, and, uh,

And perhaps it's doing something like Mr. Show, which was Bob Odekirk and I co-doing everything, made stand-up even more special because stand-up is one of the only things outside of maybe writing where it's just me.

I don't take any notes from anybody. I mean, I can. I'm happy to listen to some comments. But basically, it's just me standing up there. There's nothing to hide behind. There's no other person. It's just me. Oh, it's not that kind of podcast. I'll tell you the one I used today. But this is somebody else's podcast I'm doing.

Sorry, I end my podcasts with a question for my daughter. So I don't know if you heard her asking what... I did, I did. That was great. That was great. You were talking about, you know, the only things that are really truly solo are writing and... So in that way, you know, and I don't think I would have gotten...

nearly the opportunities I got if it hadn't been for Mr. Show and Mr. Show is also I mean I'm I still run into people who it's it's just one of those projects that I had so many that that were important to me when I was a kid or teenager or you know uh post-teen whatever but um those

It was important to other people and not a ton of people know Mr. Show, but the ones who know it are seriously hardcore into it and have an appreciation for it. So in that sense, you know, I would say Mr. Show.

Yeah, I mean, I think – I mean, I remember Mr. Show as just something that was – it was so tight and clever, and I really thought you hit something there that really worked. And, of course, I mean, like I said –

The inevitable, when I was talking to other folks at Lincoln and working on the pregame for this today, everyone's like, Eskimo to Arrested Development. We're all Arrested Development fans. I love it. That was a hell of an ensemble. That seems to me like a rare gift when you get that kind of a group of talent together. Oh, the casting is amazing. And also...

That was like, they got Michael Cera, Ali Shackett. I mean, all these, you know, Tony Hale, people weren't that familiar with. Right. Excuse me, Will Arnett. I mean, just the cream of the crops.

Yeah, that was, that was, uh, uh, that was as an ensemble piece, like watching you guys all working together in various permutations was just like, Oh, so much pros at the top of their game. You know, you gotta appreciate that. So, uh,

Before we wrap up, I want to ask you a little bit, um, you know, we started out talking about like whether, whether we're in a, in a moment where comedy is, is, is, you know, harder now because of the culture we live in and the, and the, the moment we live in, tell us a little bit about what you're working on now on the, on the, the, the end of the beginning of the end tour. Yep. Well, um, I took some time off. I toured a bunch in the States and, uh,

September through, I guess, November. Or no, December 2. But anyway, and then took some time off because of the holidays. And my daughter was out of school. And then I just finished this little run on Broadway in the show called All In. And then I go to Canada on...

right in the beginning of March at some point, I want to say the end of February, I'll be in Canada for two weeks. And then I go to Europe at the very end of March through April. I'll be in Europe for a month. Uh, then, uh,

Do some more U.S. dates, and then I'm going to tape the special at the 40 Watt in Athens. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'll be doing two tapings of this show, and then that'll be that.

Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, David Cross, I just want to thank you for coming on the show today. Folks, this wasn't as much of a political show as you might ordinarily have, but I was fascinated to talk to David because he is a man in full, to use a Southern phrase from Tom Wolfe. Very good. And I really appreciate you coming on today. And thanks again for listening to the LP Podcast, folks. We'll see you again on the next episode.

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