"Shouldn’t Have Resigned" - Ken Khachigian Reveals Nixon’s Paranoia, Reagan’s Mistakes, Bush’s Secrets | PBD Podcast
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I know this lives for me. we. Look, we come. So we were planning on doing this interview today all in armenian. And I said most of our audience, they're english speaking, you know, maybe we will make a couple comments on minute.

I'm sitting out with a legendary armenian who has been in many rooms that you would love to be in while major decisions are being made. Let me on packet for you. So think about your name is president nixon.

You're under a lot of scrutiny water gate you're about to go be doing the interview with frost nicks and everybody's, oh my god you're onna resign you're gonna fire you got and peach all this is gonna happen until and you're resigned as a chief researcher and you're dear, preparing camp for the interview with mix and that's my guesser and I imagine if you get a phone call for a two time governor in california and who was won the sexiest man alive at the time, love an act or marry to beautiful wife, gets into politics, wins as the present of sags, doing stuff for g on the road going up. They're talking about how amErica is the greatest country in the world in this man, this this man, then president reagan. Cautin says, I want you to be my chief speechwriter.

And he says, what you are going to be to chief speech. I want you to be my chief speech, right? I want you to write my arguable address. I want you to, if some of these things were working, I want you to be there for me. This is the men.

So imagine those conversations behind closed doors, decisions being made, all of this going on at the same time, this man has personally witness, and he got a book that just came out called behind closed doors, the the one and only can hatch. Ee, I said like that, an armenian english, we may say, can have chicken. Great to have you.

good to be AR.

Patrick k, so what a resonant. I mean, what a life you've lived.

amazing. I never thought I could happen. Been amazing life .

from armenia. Parents who escaped the genocide who are from turkey are millions from turkey. And come here they raise a son who is from by sale, which I know by cela, right outside of A, I look far and probably close to Bakers.

Well, maybe forty minutes away from Bakers. Will freon's area, great area. And then you go to cause, you go to U.

C, A barber or and bar. You go to uc, a barber, barber. And you go to colombia, I think, bia school, and then you come out. And at the time, somehow, somewhere ni xing gets a hold of you, right? If you don't mind sharing that story, how that took place, and I will go to into bunch of questions I had for you.

was the second year lost in the columbia. I love politics. I loved IT there over since I was in high school.

I went the boy state, california, boy state when I was in high school. And actually, so next and one I was used, his sand. Barba, we're on the debate team, and I cornered him when he was running for governor. For two minutes, I read six crises, and I was bored with law school. But anywhere add finish law school.

Who was he when you when you saw was you already president? You know, he was .

running for the running for o IT, and he was campaigning in sana barber. I was on the debate team, and he, after he spoke, we ordered him just for two minutes. Anyway, I just saw, and anyway, the flash for one thousand .

nine hundred sixty two minutes long .

enough where you made an impression that he remember.

He gave me some time.

And I like the man. Then I read a book, six crisis, nineteen and sixty seven. Now, flash forward.

I'm in law school, second year law student. He is running for president again. Neither a has been.

He lost in sixty. He lost in sixty two. He was not the front runner for president.

One thousand and sixty seven, no. Son rock filer was the front runner. George romney was the front runner. And ron reagan had just been elected governor in california. Ty six and everybody thought he might be president. So the next year was below the pack but I like them and I thought, you know, this might be an opportunity to get involved in a presidential campaign. So um i'm a lot so I write and I read article in new york times and says it's the new next son and he has a Younger crowd around him and he's developing a new personality so I wrote a letter to him at his law office. I typed IT out on a type rider member type rider course.

I learned how to type with a typewriter.

I wrote letter on the typed writer and sent IT to his law office in new york. I didn't get the answer back. I thought, that's pretty rude.

You did not get an answer no and so, uh, I called his office and they're very polite. They said, well, maybe got lost in the mail when you send that again. Well, I kept a carbon copy. Know, I think of goes in those days.

How do you at this time?

I'm twenty three years old, second d year law students. You so I I rewrite the letter, type IT out all over again. And my wife working on wall straight two blocks from his laugh.

She's thirty wall street. He's at twenty broad street. So type IT SHE said. SHE hand delivers IT to his law office.

And but three weeks later, I get that, finally get an answer back from pat bu cannon pet u can is working for him as an aid to nixon. And he says, you know what? I'm sorry, your letter got mix up.

Come and for an interview. I still have that letter, and I have an interview with pat. You can in.

He needs me to this day he says, I thought you were a spy for rockfalls. You're columbia, a law school, so we have an interview. IT didn't go great, but still he let me come in for.

what is that end of you you look like, is that what do you ask him? And at that point.

well, he's asking me questions uh because I was portraying myself from um I said I have an expertise in farming because I grew up on a farm then he starts asking me questions about the and and plan and things like I didn't know about that ride and I said all I acted really stupid but basically he saw in me an eager someone who is eager um um there's a word or me .

to big pig yeah pic is sharp sugar resources right? Ah yeah right .

and clever so he saw someone who wanted to move up. And h, so I said, come on in and you can volunteer. Well, there is only about fifteen people.

They're working in the office because people weren't crazy about this and back. So I said, i'll do whatever you want me to do. I don't want to start at the top, so I start answering correspondence. But every chance I got, I would volunteer to work, do this, do that. I provided research.

And Martin Anderson, who was that hover institution at the time doing domestic policy advice for nixon, uh, saw that I was sort of an ear bear climbing law student and and when nixon started doing well um and then he want the primary and then come that summer they offered me a job and um I got hired to work in the campaign in the summer of one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight working for gasoline. Allen Greensward wow. And alan Greenspan was um the domestic policy advisor for nixon in the campaign. Alan greece man was an economic consultant at the time. Yeah he was sort of a i'd character.

Who would he have been today? Who is he today?

Um well, me today no, he has fear he had of the federal reserve no, I totally .

get that meaning A A Allen Green spent at that time if you compared to an alan Greenspan of today, who is today's alan Greenspan oh my god, is their way to make that comparison. War no I I .

can't even think about me an alan Grace van played in the played the um cloud and I think he played the great and and um what he herman's jazz and back in the in the sixties and the fifties along with the nick's law partner, that's how they knew each other. And then he became an economic consult. And he was sort of a nerd.

Economic nerd. Was you sharp when you had? Was he a sharp? Like you like this guys impressed.

Well, he was. He was sharp, but he was. He was sort of spaces, sort of a space good that you know what I mean he was after never never land he won't made a quite law school he said, you know you should quit law school uh because we're going to win this election and um we'll get your job in the White house I said after all this time, at four years of one to graduate, two years of law school, you're going to have a quick law school after all this, that's crazy. No, i'm gonna quit law school. He was, he was out this other world, but he was, he was a genius and you could tell and he was, he was very cerebral.

Um do you think I leave himself was the arrogant no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

no, no his earth and is very, very smart and but I didn't just report to him I reported a lot of others as well but I but he was my direct boss .

um so when you're doing this, what is your attention? What are you trying to be? Are you here's a guy that is in debate, right? You're the debate groups and all the stuff they do not at columbia, right?

Um you you're going through where you're studying in politics. You have the interest who do you want to be or unix your mind. I'm going to be a congressmen to are you saying I want to be a speech, right? Am I gonna a dark president .

who I going to be this question? Because before I got involved in a that when I was in high school, I was, I was, or let's say, when I first got into press me your college, I I thought I was. My goals become U.

S. Senator, but by the time I got to this point in my life, in the next campaign, I just want to get a job in the White house, and I wanted somehow make a difference. I didn't know where I was gonna up, to be honest with you.

I wanted to have, I wanted me in the White house, and I wanted, I wanted people to see that I A, help them make a difference in some way. And I didn't know where I was gonna up. I wasn't like a lot of my colleagues who were searching for power or are looking to move up to be on the top.

I just wanted people to notice that I was an ear beaver wanting to help out. Um I wanted to get noticed, but also I had a family too. I want to real life.

What is you to get married?

I got. I was not quite twenty. I was nineteen years old.

You got married at nineteen .

and so you have kids already or not no I was two I software and during your and college but we didn't have kids uh until um I was um I think twenty five. Okay, so you guys waited six year.

Yeah so now you at this point of your um when i'm looking at history to see what happened in thousand nine hundred and sixty two IT as one thousand nine hundred and sixty two region was dropped by G E. Yeah this is the part where g didn't like the fact that he was talking to political and they're just saying sell how great geis he's selling how great americans like you're on the rally and he formally registered as a republican and sixty four U.

S. President's election raking gave a speech for presidential, contain a very cold water that was eventually referred to as a time for choosing who ve seen the speech right many, many times. So is the temperature high in amErica with politics? Is that like, I want to be like him when I grow up one day? I want to be on the big stage one day or not? really? Not really. yeah.

No, no. At that point, I was focused on getting my just going to college. Don't just trying to get by.

I had to pay for my own education. Um we got married. My parents gave us three dollars. My wife parents gave us three dollars and said, now you're on your .

own so they were loaded. They give you a lot of money. Very rich oil family from the middle of graduation.

So from that time, we're on our own. We paid for everything, college loans, working summers, working jobs, whatever IT is. So where just trying to get through school, get through college, get through a law school? No, I didn't have any big grand old school in life.

So when you started working as a, you said fifteen people help and out pat gave you a job. He was, he first thought, because your colombia, maybe you on the rockefeller, because school affiliation linking there. okay.

And then you're like, we will give you a job you're in. You haven't you had made a name? You like let me just get to work and see what i'm all about exactly. So at what point to get your opportunity where you work in directly with nickem? When did you make the impression .

on him I didn't get to work with next directly until after he resigned.

until after he read.

yeah, you know, the White house is a very structured organization. You have, you have very few people have direct contact with the president. You have a massive organization, but you have very few people have very direct contact with the president in the states.

It's a very insular circle that has role direct contact with the president. So that's the same with the nicks on White house and with the ragan White house. IT doesn't matter. So in in the next White house, I never had a one on one a conversation with the president. Never, never.

never not even after he resigned.

after he resigned, yes.

pro did not pre I did not. And why is that? Is that because because I don't think trump is like that.

Is that because he didn't trust people when you watch the nixon movie with Anthony y help and said, I don't know you've seen IT or i'm sure you haven't seen IT. Why haven't seen? You've never seen IT.

No, it's actually prety good movie to watch. I love that. I love watch the next. I assume you've seen from mixing frost the movie. Yeah right?

When you watch the movie you're in IT, I mean, plays you in the movie, but when you watch nixon and you see the first time, you know the role his wife plays and he's almost given up, I don't know, I want to a put off. He comes back, he runs, he wins the debate john of Kennedy, the tanning bed he looked at, share four o'clock all this stuff here. And then when he's going through, you don't don't feel like he's a guy that trust a lot of people. You feel like he just didn't trust anybody that he was typically by himself because he know who he could trust and who couldn't trust. Did he give you a vives of an overly paranoid guy?

no. Um you know that's interesting. People say that it's just it's just the way um no no uh you know he was open the blood of people. He's open ideas is just the way a the situation is structure I I wrote memo to him in the sixty campaign that got to him even was just twenty three years old. He was always open the ideas and open the is just that you can't have people um uh swarming into candidates and swarming into the president uh or else you won't have an organization. I don't know how many people come on to you in your organization.

I don't know how many people have access to you to tell you what to do or tell you how to run your organization um or or if you have uh a structure organization uh or when you had your your insurance company, if you had if if you if you had junior people able to come on and talk to you directly, maybe you did, maybe you didn't but uh, I don't know if jammy diamond allows junior people come and talk to him. I mean, it's just and if he doesn't is the paranoid? I don't know.

I don't think you can call people paranoid just because they have an organization structure. Uh, I didn't find them to be paranoid when I got to know him. So that's a bad rap nicks on that. I always feel, I think a good quality.

I don't think of bad quality. I find IT as I I think, you know, here's schizo kay. Here's paranoid. Yeah, here's an naive. Okay, i'm okay with you being here.

You cross this, then you're miserable, right? But if if you're here, everyone's taking advantage of you and this, I don't think you're ready to be a president. I think you need to be a little bit here to size everybody up and study body language that somebody, you know where the right. And max, I gave me a vide that he was like that.

Well, he studied people very carefully, and as I say, even paranoid ts, real enemies. But he did study people where he was very good at study people and very good at study people and knowing their traits. And at the end of the day, I worked for him .

really well. So so you got close to him after he reson, yes. And who made the phone call that we cannot make the introduction to him or that .

he reached you directly? Uh what happened was he resigned um and left the office on August night um of course we're all depressed down.

Okay who was costly then was run sigur his preselected ary one went with him out to sanli after he resigned along with the handful of other people jack brand and whose military aid dianora was with them um as one of the AIDS press ads and um after about ten days, eight, nine, ten days singular called me up and said, look, but we need some help out here where shirt staff and I was still in the White house staff present and ford was president and they said there are a short staff can you know, can your loyal to the president? You showed that during the impassionate process. Can you come out and help us out because we really have lot of problems.

So I flew out there on a military plane and and I had my first one on one meeting with Richard nixon. I was frighten, was really unnerving to me, because now here's the present in nine states. And i'm having my first one on one meeting and he was, there were afterlife back taxes, uh, he had no job.

Um they wanted disarm in california. Uh, he had no income. They wanted barm in new york.

Um there were so pinus floating all over the place. I had my law degree, of course, they they dependent on that. They had no, they had no structure of a budget in sanko many.

And they, they wanted me to help put his financial life in order. And so I SAT down with them. And i'm depressed because i'm twenty nine years old, and I didn't know what the how was going go on with my life.

And here he was. He had lost the most precious thing I wanted to to achieve in his life. And I thought, what? how? What does this going to be like? I'm sand now sitting one on one with them.

And you know what he says to me, one of the first thing he says can don't get down, don't we? We have to look ahead. We can look back.

We have to look forward. Ah and I thought, oh my gosh, here I am. I'm feeling low and depressed and thinking my life and shared because um i'm i'm gona pray to lose my job at the White house and everything.

His loss is gone there. His lost his income. He has no, he has no job.

Was he a millionaire the time? Was he a millionaire the time?

Oh, I don't think, oh, no. He, he, he had property, but they were trying to go after on his property. He had, he had to get IT. He was going to have to get red of this property because they felt that he had improperly used a federal funds to a built up his property um in forma um and and so that .

this reminds me of some .

money yeah, that's right.

Except had a couple zeros yeah just right yeah no.

no, no. exactly. No, no. They were after him. They do you .

think they were successful with trying .

to destroy exxon? Uh, well, not in the end, because he was so resilient, he was mentally disabilities. And you know, we can get into that because this is how we came back.

We started that. He was already planning his comeback. mentally.

He was. He was looking ahead. That's what the whole point conversation was. He was already looking forward and looking ahead and um and that those dark recesses of his life, that moment he was thinking ahead, how I going to rebuild my life, how I going to come back.

This is August eight of seventy four. You're twenty nine. He's sixty one, okay? And he's losing the job that he always wanted to have.

This was what he wanted to do for a long, long time was he wasn't shy about that. His dream was to be the president. And how much after he gets resigned on August eight, are you sitting face to face to face across from him?

Um well, this is ten days later and I ve got about the this but I want half meeting. I am sure I have noted somewhere and i'm sitting down with them saying, here's your financial situation. Here's what our options are plus i'm trying to organize the staff uh, a staff budget, we went we have certain money that we can get.

There's transition funds and here's the staff and organize. And it's at that point that he says. He's been told by zigler how loyal I was, and he knew I was loyal. I worked on the anti petron and he says, look, uh, i'm gona write a book, a member uh, and if that happens, I i'd like you to come out here and work with me, my memories. And I thought i'd really love to do .

that at that time. How are you getting paid .

if i'm still on the White house? Staff working for Jerry ford got and and, but ten days later, returned to the White house. Then I get fired.

Ten days later, aug. Eighteen, you go back to the White house and .

you get fired roughly time.

Is that because they found that that you wanna have a meeting with? Yeah course. why? Because they were like, why are you meeting with you?

Don't tell us about IT. No, no, no, no, no, no. I know I was out there, but they they were eventually going through the White house staff and designing one who on the White house staff .

loyalist to him.

They're getting rid of, yeah, they got rid of pet, you can.

And they got rid of me who they is.

They ford, yeah. Force people yeah. So they wanted around .

isn't force people mixing people?

Oh, of course they have next an appointed ford.

That's what i'm saying. So when you're saying force people are getting rid of nicks on people, it's another way of saying nicks on people who were against them. A revealed themselves by getting rid of the people that were fully loyal to nico. Yeah.

that's a Better we have saying we were baggage because they didn't want anybody around who is supported the anthem.

Peaching was a friction between four and next four didn't like nixon .

um I have no idea what what what went on me between the two of I think there was afterwards there was a little Better bad blood unfortunately.

from next to ford or for .

to nixon I think .

for the nixon four to .

nixon yeah because well after the party um ford took a lot of heat and I think he felt like I think ford felt like he he may have lost the presidency because of the pardon got IT so he kind of .

blamed IT on nicks and I was even though .

he got the presidency because the nicks right. It's sort of a fifty fifty situation .

that makes them so going back to nixon, so how many total hours would you save you spend with nixon? Just a two of you .

total hours you mean in my in your .

lifetime if you would have put a number two thousands, thousands of hours to them OK. What are the different of situations you've spent the time with dinner, golf, in reading, vacation business. What would you say? I mean thousands of a lot of time.

Uh, thousands would be mostly in the office um um we didn't we didn't socially we didn't play golf together and we had dinner um rarely maybe four five times, six times and that would have been a travelling when I went with them. I travel with him to london and paris in the post presidency. When he went he had a speaking engagement in uh paris son in london and he estimate to travel with them.

Um I went with him when his first grandchild was born. I accompany him to new york and we had dinners but uh we didn't socializing that way. Um we h spoke on the phone um a huge amounts of times in his post presidency to talk politics, uh to talk about what was going on with reagans presidency, Carter s presidency, um what was happening in politics. But the mostly was during the time working on the memories and preparing in the frost next and interviews. There is just hundreds and hundreds of hours accumulated over those years were in .

situations like this, like this picture here. Yeah, look at like that.

exactly.

So is like, is that a conversation? Are you asking him questions he's telling you, are you writing for him? And many times where you're asking and what you think about this is surprising.

And what do you think about that? What's constant processing and asking any questions? Or is you just have an open .

conversation with you? Well, now there were probably talking him out the book, and what's a certain parts of the book I was responsible for the his campaigns and throughout the book, and responsible for the chapter is on probably the supreme court appointment, ths and all the various campaigns. And so the those various chapters, i'd be going through the sequences of the research I was doing on the books but then uh because he would get bored with talking about talking about the book and this was nineteen nineteen seventy six and the you had the presidential primer is going between, uh, regan and ford in late seventy five and seventy six then you have the presidential campaign of seventy six.

He will get bored working on the book and say, hey, you know let's talk about the new hampshire mary let's talk about the primary and uh pensylvania or the primary um some other state or he get uh diggory sing and talking about politics or he just love just talking about what happened in the pastor about personalities. Uh, you know, one time I remember he's talked about the one thousand sixty campaign and for just right out of the blue he said, you know, I instead of putting Henry cabo lodge on the ticket, I shed to put uh h first and morton, he was the center from kentucky I should have put through to mortal the ticket and I might a one what what a what a revelation that was to you my peace give you a piece of history that's crazy. The identity in my book, that's a real piece of history. I'm told you believe what was .

he like behind closers when you have a conversation with them?

Now he is fascinating. I mean, when out of the blue somebody talks about winston churchill or, uh, something, uh, somebody to do IDE ison hour, uh, sad. Or the the something that the he learned from whalley brand or that he had a conversation with whalley brand.

Now that was not always, but he love talking about domestic politics or or things about jack Kennedy. He had, he had the stories about jack Kennedy. But I was always, and I love talking politics.

What stories tell like, do you remember any stories you told you about jack stuck till today?

Ah, he was friends with Kennedy and he said, you know, we talked about Kennedy, talk about Kennedy's women he said, you know, he said about the Kennedy and women he says it's not women that we'll do you in is drinking he felt IT was drinking that would do the politicians in back in those days then he went through. He I remember him going through a list of politicians that had, there wasn't this um I don a family of a family program, but the of the politicians that may have had problems with women but he said he back in those days, that is the drinking and they got to so but heat meaning .

like if you got you drink too much, you fooled around you .

irresponsible to know they drinking affected your judgment is what he would say got a lot of smart politicians back in the forties, fifties and sixties said, uh that drinking .

in affected and that he drink .

no was a mixing a drinking or had a scotch that night but I never saw when he was bozo, I never did. I think those are lot of mythologies.

but so me, you that's the stuff that we see on who we are told nixon is versus your experience. How different is the misconceptions we have about x on verses? You have spent a few thousand hours with them.

The big misconception is that about next one is that he's cold and unapprovable. That's what people always say about nixon. Is that the notion that you said is penrod that he's called he's unapprovable you can have a conversation with them. He is not warm um he's every every part just about every politician I know is is wary of strangers because they're not quite sure what's gonna come that uh relationship or contact uh especially in this modern age when you can be recorded on a iphone or whatever.

But still once you got to um your first contact with nick on, he was more than approach able he was the conversations float freely, especially if you started talking about IT something that he was comfortable with about politics or baseball uh or or his family so uh I found him to be a very, very approach. We had we had the greatest conversation. I'm going to go back and uh uh just flashback adjustment about these conversations who we had I was about politics.

This is where I learned about reagon so much, is that discussions about the primary in twenty six, because he educated me about regan. And we will talk about regan and ford. Ford was doing wrong, what regan was doing right, and what regan was doing wrong.

And he'd, he made political assessments. The guy was A I I just to say about next son, when he wasn't involved with his own campaign, he could he could make exclusively bright strategic judgments. When when politicians are trying to make judgments ments about their own campaigns, they lose their they lose their ability to um to to not be baLanced and how they make decisions. But when they're not involved with their own campaigns that can be very uh open and um neutral.

What do you spend a time with them? Who did you know? And by the way, I mean there's two things when interviews like this has happened, either you're only going to tell the good, which makes for boring conversation and the audience is going to walk when we're going to lose them, okay? And they are going to sell.

He's just going to sell the good and we're not going to hear. I watched document or the other other day I was I was falling asleep. I'm like, please give me something like if they ever make a about documentary about me, please don't make IT just all good. Tell some of the horse stories, man, like there no one walks on water. There's got to be some shit that they're dealing with that you know people wanted know.

So you know, when he comes on to nicks and what was some like who was who would the people that really pissed them off? Who would have people that, you know, really agitated and were got under his skin? Or what were some air like, you know, you read rumors about some that was womanizer.

Did he like the girls? Was he go with the ladies that the ladies like in was a, you know, guy who would curse a lot behind closer? Was he a smoker? What was a tracked of a bottom? Was he a sports guy? What what were some of those things about nicks? And that wasn't, you know, coming from the standpoint of somebody that loves them, your ibc, a fan of this.

And by the way, you know many people know that nixon no longer with us saying nick on was won the Better presidents that we ever had. Nixon should have never resigned, should have never cave. Mixon should have stood up and know, took to know things that would come in afternoon. A lot of people agree what a lot of good that he did, forty economy, a lot of good that he did for economy. But no one walks on water .

over some of those things. I actually talk about IT in the um my book during the frost interviews um he was quick to anger a during the frost interviews when h his staff let him down, especially he he was very angry.

There was a scene and there were he felt that that we had not provided them the information he he got very upset with uh he he exploded in anger at at at a diane's uh when I um IT was IT was sort of unfair in a lot ways I think he he was I have to say I was sort of IT was not child dish but I was explosive anger that um shouldn't he shouldn't have done because he had made a honest mistake and and didn't provide them the formation and I said, you know there was this a peaceful information that that we had that could have helped in the interview that you just dead and he then provided any he he he just exploded all of the son and he cursed i'll say this about him his cursing was IT was was moderate. He he never used, he never, but he never used. Follow words, really? no. He said, no f wars, no p wars.

No shit.

No stuff like shit, yes, but no, no.

Get the model.

No, never that. okay? Never, never heard of really, ever, ever one. No, you would have .

been a bad rapper if you do up you know .

but yeah but he would um you know to say somebody is an ice hall or you know he does not give a ship or something like that yeah but never never use the effort not once i've pastors use those words not a single time okay. Entire time I knew him and he had a temporary .

so he got upset at, no, no so you .

were there when I was there and and I calmed them down yeah you know he would look in front of in front of those of us or I I think he he felt comfortable with he. He would rise the anger. And I underside IT. I think you probably do that from time to time with your .

own walk on water. I never lose my cool and very calm, rob.

Now there's there's people in the booth behind here healing. Now there are not life.

They're actually bit not be ugh, I support to get a life a problem. This is the part of this is this is a part where people see that the person does not. You have the biggest chap in the world. You are the number one story around the world. You're getting fired.

How many movies and rap how can you type in? How many movies and documentaries and books have been written about nickson? I mean, if if you were to talk about the number of times he's been references in a movie, I mean, this is, this is a powerful name, right? So you're under pressure.

Some of the guys that you gave a job to have turned against you, causing you to lose your job you like, you won't never had a job. What I am, I shows you, I gave you this opportunity, not your Philipon y these, these are tough situations to be, but that instance would die. solar. And nick, and what was the specific thing that?

Well, was there was a piece of information that he could have used in the interview with I would have helped have helped with frost yeah and remember what I was or IT had to do with um the six gene twenty third type um that there was something is the former deputy director the C A A provided and it's again I described in the book um that that who had warned them that he didn't want the F B uh uh to to get a fell of CIA Operations um and um he thought that was beneficial to him in the interview with frost and and SHE they collected to provide IT and I had remembered now look, SHE had done such a stupendous job in preparing him for .

those interviews stupendous .

is a good some people in to maybe .

the fourth language I just want a complementary of Diana.

You're being a complete SHE SHE had a work ethics Better than just about anybody. And he had done so much, and he had overlooked this one little thing and almost felt bad that i'd brought this did IT bother her.

So SHE was he almost rather .

red tears?

Yes, but he didn't.

Did he didn't. And he, and and but I have to say this, he calmed down right away.

If selling the story of Diana is an ouverte.

if dies listening to this.

would he remember this moment?

SHE might have, I don't know, which I gave her. I sent a copy of the book, and you may or may .

not to remember that .

I still talk or no, we've talk a few months back, but we're not in constant communication.

God, and obviously she's .

a private person.

She's a private person. Got IT SHE lived the pretty public life, won on TV to an interview. He did some of the biggest interviews of all time. If you type in the biggest interviews ever done.

she's on the list of many things that the different there's public persons. Private persons though. Public persons is also private life for sure.

but for sure. But you're saying SHE didn't want her personal life to be out. SHE kind of didn't want the fame.

SHE was good at the giant. He was gone. SHE was gone. That okay. What what else with mixon? What else did you see where moments where you know something bothered .

him could look, I think there are times when he could be says something snarky about um uh uh another politician uh that uh maybe sounded petty but I don't I think that's that's equality that's not above anybody. It's maybe we say gossipy. He was not above political gossip.

Let's put IT that way. He was not no got IT. If so if you're talking about you know know trying to say yes, he didn't walk on water but but that's not a horrible trade in my judgment.

That's that's something people do all the time um but I didn't I can't give you anything. He didn't drink to excess in front of me. He was not a womanizer. Um he was a, he was a very generous man. He did good things with me.

Would he ever talk to you like for example, would you ever sit there behind closed doors and you're an e not an economy background, but you have some stuff that would Green span, so you have an economy where you're common. And then here's a budget. Here's how much money we got to get to deal with.

So you understand money. Well, would you say to you ever any questions being closed or second, yes, and saying, you know what, when I said we're going to this this going off of gold standards are going to be temporary. I shouted, never done IT. You know, when he came down to this, I shouldn't resign that. He ever tell you I shouldn't never resign that he ever .

saying you that stuff um why did talk about he shouldn't fire to hold the man neuron that's for sure that he felt that he mentioned that more than he wants and he felt that was a bad decision that he made. why? Because um didn't I didn't I didn't change anything.

He said that they were his. They were loyal to him. They were his. He said he was like cutting off his right arms and his left ARM and um that um that he felt that the that was a mistake that he made that he did make any difference in make any difference in his presidency IT didn't help him IT didn't help him out any and I just I just hurt them and I think in the end probably um worked as disadvantage in a lot of ways IT IT turned earth man against him um IT hurt holder man a lot although holding's didn't turn against him but uh I think he got nothing out of IT is what he met and he said that any number of times that who's .

the one that turned against him that holder man .

who turned again was Better.

more but either one of them like come back and destroy him and come in any of them know so why was he second guessing that decision? There is IT because he like them and .

because there there the most important people staff.

So why did he fired? And initially because .

there is a lot of problem, because there is all this pressure, uh the the the the at the time, the washing post and um all they um they have been test fine for the water many and gandery was after them uh there is a lot of public attention, a put on them that they had uh participate struction adjusters, the alignment to participate in this plumer's Operation and everything and that they were the center of a lot of the illegal like allegedly at the center of lot of the illegal activities in the White house and that so they were a they were anchors around nick's neck and so there was I can't remember who I was saying.

He was probably getting some internal advice that look at this. This is just negative team. mr. President, you've got to get rid of these two guys and because it's just A A, uh, a negative, your problem was escape.

He needed to fire somebody to say, it's like a football teams got a bad record. They fire a coach yeah. So it's like, let's fire these guys to make you something like, well, wasn't he was really dumb .

that did IT yeah and and and something mess with them and IT doesn't help yeah um so let's okay so the baseball team is not doing any good so you find the general manager and IT doesn't make any difference right?

Instead, what should he have done when he tells you that and he goes down? And what does he say? Does he say, I should have done this.

I should have done, I should he capt. Them is what he said, because he lean on him so much. He lean on their advice above. Hold me as the guy he talked to. The first guy talked um in the morning, the last guy talked night, oh wow and these guys are very big financial people .

in in this administration oh yeah.

no no. There are the two key guys city. I mean, that he talked to all the time.

what did they end up to an afterwards? What big job did they have after nixon? They ever have another? They and nobody .

just went to prison and then they're all threw the books. And I can't remember a.

uh, they both went to prison. Yeah, how long did they do remember how .

long do a good amount if I take several months? I mean, they were not one years and years, I can't remember.

So nixon took responsibility for this happened with these guys. He felt like IT was his father, that they want to jail.

I think IT was. He felt there was his foot that I think he felt they got a Better wrap, and I think a lot of them got bad wrap. S that's a whole different story .

that so did they ever have another job up? They went to what he was found guilty and in prison, or atmos round down release, he returned to private life on .

the development was that had had another.

is that holder men?

yeah. So he came .

back cancer at six. How about like .

wrote books? And I don't know if he had a real job. He wrote books and .

he was also in jail for you to have. By the way, did you ever see them after the water? A scandal where you ever there, where they they react afterwards, or they would.

I saw holder man. You saw holder man, yes.

he next and work together afterwards. I just saw holman. And personally, i'm sorry, got IT, but never wait nicks on. They never reunited.

Didn't know they did. They did reunite.

but I was all three of them no.

I I don't think ever so everyone again as IT because .

early man was like .

as .

I know okay. And when you met with holder, and how was was he?

What is that? There was a very interesting meeting. Holder men, we were all terrified of holding ament in the White house. Why he was a very? Because he was a very, they called him a sweden bob, because I was, because there is the initials for sob.

So he was a tough .

guy because he was very stern, very um he had very strict rules and uh he he he wasn't he had a very stern domino and personality and he wasn't really you know um he ran things all by the rule book so I never had I had one conversation with them the entire time was in the White house and then I I knew he was going to call me to get some peaceful information and I I was scared I was frightened ah that I was nervous that he was going to call for this piece of information that I was grow up and i'd get in trouble and even I was just a simple he was going to call me to asked me um how the press treated some piece of information so people were he had a reputation.

Reputation was caused a reputation .

yeah don't scp around the mind you in trouble? Just a tough he ran a tight shape and even those people who work for him knew that he was turned and rent real time ship so um um anyway so a bob was just was was .

he nixon's number one general?

Yeah, I was a chief of staff.

okay. And then how about ork? What world did he play?

He was head of domestic, had a domestic council. He has has had a domestic affairs. But he was, uh he was the lead a hand, a holmen with the school together and hold bottom into the campaign to run the advanced Operation. But then, uh, early man ran the whole domestic affairs Operation, so he ran all the domestic, so he oversaw the entire domestic council, all the domestic legislation.

Everything else to argument was not as feared as holman was.

Well, he didn't have the, he didn't have the same role as holmen in terms of running staffing or anything else got to. But they were the two. They were known as, quote, the germans.

the germans. Were they german?

Yeah, what? Early man holman, right?

So they were germans, but born heroes. Ously, yeah okay. So uc LLM nice and um interesting.

So how about ford? Did he ever relationship? Would ford? Would he talk about ford? Or they were not that close?

Well, they were close. Um they came into congress, I think the ford came into the congress, I think in forty eight and nick and came in forty six. They were colleagues throughout um the years in congress and they were always you know close friends and colleagues throughout all losers.

Um they were I don't think they were pals real close pills, but they were friends. I mean, they did so I don't know that they social lives together that much. But he wouldn't have chosen him as vice president if he did have trust in him or that he was can be safer and anywhere.

anything else did he trust. Region was.

was event of brain, oh yeah, very much. So once he got elected, he he was, he was wary of reagan in sixty eight because they viewed rain as a, as a potential chAllenger. So once he got a elect, the president and region was not a political threat to me, yes. But as long as, as long as region was a political threat, him.

there was a different story. You have a wrong with the three of them.

Oh yeah.

How was that one of the book? How was I want to gather together?

Oh, that was, that's the last trip of the book to the amazing story. It's, I called the lions gather and that was fine.

Think you have nickname the lions. They called you. What was your nickname?

Oh, oh no. My another yeah.

I I read another nickname for you, that said, was the other nickname I read for you. There was another nickname, saw that you had to me, if I can find this or not, but they had a nickname for you. Maybe you don't know this nickname. You going to find out about a years later, who knows? I saw nicknamed, i'll find out, tell you what the nike name I said, uh, or the line of a time .

was a .

had election, eight, eighty is registered, regarded as a line of calories. A yeah. So how many? I had a lot .

of nicknames. People who work for me probably gave him to me, yeah, when the best decisions .

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How often were you with the three of them together with nixon?

Just that one time. Okay, got IT. And I was was such a fascinating meeting. That's why it's the last chat at my book.

What is this picture? What's this momentary?

That's that's the end of the meeting. And there was, there was two days before we open the next library. I was, I oversaw the open of the next library in ninety. We open the library on july.

You're very good looking, man.

You look, look at .

that big time.

Well, somebody said they never seen me so happy. I don't know so after after you working .

when nicks on was your relationship when nixon would help you get, uh, uh, uh, president reagan to make you a chief speech rider? Yes, yes. If that's obviously sign that regan trusted nixon to call and see a who do you recommend .

and nixon made the recommendation I would .

have IT was not directly .

and not directed ging and I was indirectly would be indirectly um when nicks on finished the memories and was basically had had gotten the purpose of the members and the frost interviews was to get water, get behind them, to reinvent his life, to restructure, to get us to uh get his financial house in order. He got paid a lot of money for his members and the frost interviews and then um he um by that time he didn't he didn't need a staff like he did for the memorials or anything else plus is bored living and sank many because the people had hard time coming out to see him. So that's when you want to move in new york nineteen, late seventy nine, early eighty.

So I was going to be out of the job so I he kept me on next and kept me on in seventy nine uh throughout this uh as a consultant part time and then I started looking for work and then I had friends in the region campaign that he started at for president in late seventy nine. These are old piles that actually had also had work for nicks on previously. And so I had some consulting a region with them as well nixon said, i'm gonna announced me i'm going to new york because I got to be where the action is and he said, uh um about this time he said, i'm going to introduce you to still Spencer Stuart, Spencer two. Spencer ran reagans uh, go attarian campaigns in one thousand nine hundred sixty six and was his political advisor for all those yours h the spener Roberts, Spencer Roberts organizations so two ensor was previously ragons campaign managers and still cancer with somebody that next knew uh from political campaign.

He managed not some rock of others campaign sixty .

four and but but still cancer had also run Jerry ford campaign in one thousand nine hundred and seventy six. So even though he had run ragons campaigns previously, he was no longer on Nancy reagans Christmas card list. So he was, but had office for beach and had a lot of political contacts.

And so nick and said, go, go, sit down with two penser and see what see if he's got any work for you so I met was still in nineteen in ninety seventy nine and so so well, why is dig next and sending you to see me and I said, well, he said you had a lot of context so I started meeting with two and um I had actually did a little help with him writing some stuff I write about this in the book and so um still um and I stayed in touch and in um nineteen and eighty, regan campaign started getting in the trouble in August and september IT wasn't doing well and nanc and um and run rain said we've got to do something to get things in order especially Nancy day because he was sort of the boss and SHE said, you know what we even though we unhappy with still we got to get steel back and so they called stew up and still said, okay, if you're gona get me back even though we've had all these problems with each other in the past. Is the problem with your campaign is you're trying to run from the headquarters. If i'm going to be in this campaign, i'm gonna run IT from the i'm gonna n IT from the plane.

You can't run IT from the headquarter is and i'm i'm run from the plane. I have to make I have I get to choose um the the policy person, the the press person, the the the person runs the campaign tour and I get to have a speech rider with me and that person turned out to be me. So still, Spencer is an interesting guy.

by the way. Yeah, he's ninety seven years old. Last time he voted for democratic president was in one thousand nine, forty forty eight, truman, and in twenty twenty he voted for biden over trump.

Yeah, IT.

Trump is not a fa. Trump, no. So, okay, so you get into the reagan family.

Uh, you you're now his chief. yeah. I'd been .

begging to get involved in the raging campaign for months and months, months, and they were they were not letting me get the job I wanted.

By the way, did they give you reason why?

Because we don't have the money um we're having trouble to our budget. Um you know blab blaw there give me was the first meeting with them.

One is the first time you .

met him um first time I well, first time I have met him was you see sana barba again. I was stood by president and I introduced him. I I got him to speak to the campus and that was one of my jobs. I got to introduce our spoke to the campus.

And who was the governor?

Was no, was running for a governor.

And this is sixty, sixty six, sixty six. And was u. Sana barba party city party school book or not?

Well, yeah, was a party school, but I was married. So I mean.

you see, i've ever had a reputation when I was in my early twenty years. latex. Th, yeah, yeah, great bookstores.

Yeah, long bookstores. That no matter what you wanted, everybody you wanted was there. There was something in the water. I don't know what I was OK.

I'm going to start viewing, you know. Well.

I will please. The fifth is what I will do if we go through with that.

I introduced radian at to to the student body back in sixty six. That's for some. I met him so but that was we had no conversation with each other other than I talked among the stage for two minutes. But pleasant .

guy yeah oh ah .

is genuine, always genuine. But uh then I believe them. H I did have a consulting arrangement with them in early in in ninety eighty. I brief ed them on issues along with the several other people, but then I lost all contact with them because they head all these bs issues with their budget and sent the other.

So I didn't get hired until there was five and half weeks left in the campaign when still spends says I get to choose the speech writer. That's how I got involved. So now you're in you know me speech right on the airplane.

You're on the airplane with him. I'm critical.

Tell me that's critical because that's where the that's where the campaign is being run, right? A day to day all .

air force one?

No, no, no, no. 是 this is his a candidate。 He's governor.

He's a governor. You want to play with him?

I mean, we call IT the government.

He's actually governor. But how many how many hours do you spend with versus nickson?

Was a more nick on than regan or I A one on one I ve spent probably in aggregate, more hours with thinks. And because I worked on this book with them, got IT. But I didn't spend a lot of time with was.

was was I maybe I think was a Nancy more present when you're talking to raging and pat me and present when you're I can see that yes, to give you vives of a control free or somebody that was just protective of her husband, both. Give me examples .

of control free well, this is this is why people need to read my book um I called her the chief of staff and he joined the campaign which is a positive thing um because he trusted he he trusted nobody more than he trusted and irregular he called her mommy um and SHE when SHE SHE did when I first joined the campaign he went on the plane SHE was still a scientist and then he joined us a week later and things were wbi wbi wbi then SHE came on the plane and IT steady him because he he always he just needed her by aside and but there was like a occasion I described on them in the book where for example, I was under great pressure to get this speech to him we're on our way to the lima。

Lama lamer, ohio and a lamer lama. I can't member rely really now uh and uh we are doing a speech and we were forty five minutes away and we're under pressure planes on final approach. We're trying to get the speech and i'm um under pressure trying to type in the back and we have to write IT but on the half sheet to get the ham and SHE walks back to me and he says, can where's the speech?

Mam i'm working on we're trying to get them. Where's the speech? No, i'm almost done, SHE says. Roney is looking for the speech so you get get the feeling now urgency.

lets go. And yeah, he needs IT .

right away. And I get IT ripped out the typewriter the secretary have typed up. They have to put on hf, she's get IT up to take IT up to him. So that's that's that's a role is being A A control freak and being like in charge all at .

one was this SHE think him like, you know, certain seals are afraid .

of firing people being telling.

asking her to got IT.

So it's he. He can be a confrontation.

I got IT so, so he was a guy that A A would avoid conflict if you needed to fire somebody he couldn't do. Nancy can AR interesting. So it's not hard doing taking the initiative. He was relying on her and delegating to to do the .

top of several time. Wow, yeah, wow.

Do you ever have a moment where president waking and gave you direct criticism? Want to want? yes. What was once IT .

was is a famous moment in in the book and that it's a it's a very makes a big, very big difference in policy and that's when prior to the first day of the summer with the garbage shop and he brought me, I was backing california but he is going to prepare a speech before the general assembly uh to the united nations in uh the fall uh of ninety eighty five and I get called in and I think the speeches and october of nineteen eighty five, september october one thousand eighty five and the the the basic speech is written by a speech writing staff and I get called in because they want me to shape IT up and put in his words and make sure it's edited properly so I get called in from california and I have two meetings with them and i'm assuming it's the the initial speech is written by the band ally of the ahead of the a current speech writing staff and it's pretty tough anti come in the speech and i'm assuming um he still wants IT to be a pretty tough and that I come in a speech because this is running regen so I add of the speech and work IT out and I make IT the tone just pretty much the way it's supposed to be and I finalized IT get the final etes and have my secretary ship IT into him the night before and then we have a meeting.

Um I don't think you have I if you have a picture of IT, it's it's a picture of um of a sitting around in the oval office. I'm sitting right next to him in the oval office and there are several of us in the meeting. Uh it's in the oval anyway there's me next to ham and the respect you can and uh don regan, john point dextra and but my form and so um I sit down and I think i'm going to get a pat on the back for doing a nice speech for in first thing he does and he says or can and for going to have a different relationship with the garbage chef we can't be using in this harsh retaliation regarding the soviet union and I go, wow, where this come from over sudden regan is going soft on communism and i'm getting spent in front of all these other guys and and i'm it's really know, I mean, my feelings are getting hurt and I think i'm getting sabotaged by somebody in the White house.

And then he starts going on and on about that. He doesn't like the language. It's too tough and just doesn't sound like him at all.

And so he wants to changed. This is the meeting is around ten o'clock or whatever. IT is something around there. I've got a flight going back to california, five. So now i've got just about four hours to read this whole speech and change the language.

And all this time I thought i'm being sabotage well, IT turns out that uh, this is a whole change in uh philosophe that he wants a different ratee yeah strategy strategy approached to garbage op before the summer. Now I I write a whole chapter on this because I found out years later talking about my farland, that the influence on him was from lady thatcher, who told him he needs to a different view towards the garbage. And then Nancy, mrs.

Reagan, wanted him to soften up. Anyway, that's when I get that's a long way. I've told you that you ask me if I ever got negative vives from him. That's when I got .

aside from that.

No, aside from that.

you are some losers.

Yes, um not not badly, but just he was angry a, he got angry about and private when he felt that he was this is again towards end of his administration and complained about not not not angry in the sense of his voice rising or anything else but ah he was angry about how he got taken by his staff raising taxes in ninety eighty two that so that bothered him really yeah why? Because he was like to buy a staff, and staff manipulated him.

Who, when you say staff, is there a name or two?

Well, there are several of them, Richard darmon, jm Baker.

呃， jean Baker, 呃。

David girls, they all, they all work together. And they like David statement. Well, they manipulated him in ways that they wanted him to go. That's Better of that way.

Would you say .

I I write about IT, so not like i'm town.

Would you say? Jim begue James bag, I read as a book phenomenal story of who he was, a tough guy. What was your impression of jean Baker .

when you're around them? Uh he was is a very pleasant guys, very afford and always basically always got along with them um and um very charming you know comes from texas say that that texas charm but you can bear very tough but we uh was N S B.

I was you qualified .

as sob e yeah you could be a we cross, we cross sorts later on in the eighty four campaign. But then we you know, basically I think he decided that he and I would be, uh, we're Better off not getting in passing match with each other um but I think the day he he preferred not the have to do battle with me and but um it's clearly we have different views of where region should go and he wanted red and be much more.

Had a softer view of amErica than I did. And and I want to take that he wanted rain to be less wrong. Regan and one reagan was that's that way in Baker.

some people say he was a, he was the first dick chaining before there was a dc chaining. Would you agree with that?

I know what that means.

meaning key. You know how they say. Dick chaney was a the the guy that was making a lot of decisions behind closed doors with bush. And jim Baker was one that ran the show or no.

Well, there's there's a lot to do with that. I think yes, I would say that, but not a positive way not .

in a positive .

way yeah because um again, as I write about the book, especially on domestic policy issues, uh, he did things. So it's not just time he brought in people uh that worked against recently and I write about the book and i'm it's important that people read about IT. It's it's it's that in reagan talks about decisions that were made that were not uh, in regan's interest and he now regan doesn't name names because he he didn't realize what was going on and um and just that I found information in the archives and I and when I research the book I found more more information that the let a made of find factual reasons to believe that regan was you know uh take until the watcher on these things so you ever read the book .

to man who run washing yeah, I did what you .

think about IT. Well, I thought that was a fluff job on je Baker. He he embarked shes what IT a lot of IT was good in the sense that IT exposed a lot of things about. A lot of IT was a foot job.

was, was a bigger moral bush guy or raging guy.

Well, he, he was more luck. He was, he was. He was. He did his job. He did mostly what he was, he was, he was a, he was a regan guy in the sense that if he was required to do something that reg really wanted do, he did IT.

But if he could get away with doing something that he believed that regan should do, even if regan did did not want to do IT, and he could get away with regan doing that, he would get he would do IT and that was like the text package and eighty two um raising taxes. They all thought that was in ragan interest and and they convinced that was in rain interest in ragon, called that one of the worst mistakes of the presidency. And he told me that twice behind .

closed doors, how did they can feel about bush?

He liked him.

He like him? Yes, he did. But he trust him? yes. He trusted him? yes. Senior, yes.

he liked bush and he he felt bushes a good vice president. He trusted and liked them. Did you did you ever only .

did you ever read the story about bush senior and his son neel meeting with hank's brother coming down to dinner a day before the shooting the same way shooting and and that I cancelled no, you never heard of that. Um try to see what. But can you play the clip? I think a tripoli p tox about that. None of that one I I text IT to you and there was an article written about this. I mean, if you're saying no, I mean he never brought IT up um it's you follow your organ, you know your organ no no yeah .

robbi texas ude.

So if you just look at your taxes you'll find IT I text IT to uh right before after getting into IT, it's a clip um that just came out. I want to say last week, I don't if you have a rubber not I don't have them okay. So there is a clip of and let me find this thing for you. Hang on second is he said, yeah, it's on twitter. If you've going to twitter, you should be able to find IT and me, see here, we see here.

It's very interesting. And I wanna look to.

like, is this really an incredibility behind this? And then you see some of the stories about so funny.

right? I literally watched .

before we went live. So your impression is they were good. There was no issues there.

No, no, no. I and I have a high regard for both himself. It's just that when he bought Baker, see Baker brought in people to work for him that did, did, did not have ragons interest in in their heart. They were, they were, they felt like they were independent.

Uh, I mean, again, you have to read my book, the sky darmon was was A A terrible influence and Baker game of free hand and IT was a IT was just destructive to reagans uh, domestic presidency, my judgment and it's it's a story that needs to be told and he was an evasive personality or darmon and and and Darwin admits admitted in in private conversations with reporters that he didn't want public until I found them, that he wanted to change that he, he, he, he came to the White house to change regions economic program. Now he had no business doing that. He had absolutely no, you don't come to the way.

You don't come to work for the president. Change economic program. Do you want somebody to come to your organization and and and uh secretly try to change what you're doing? That's wrong. They can't come to work for.

uh, but how do you not catch that? How do you as the president .

not catch that because you're trusting your chief of staff now when you.

but you still get criticize for the person you higher that I made a lot of bad highs. How did rain in? Or somebody that he didn't trust, like Baker, did he have a relationship with Baker? Or was was Baker would he would Baker be somebody that was part of a swap?

No, that's that's that's a good question. That's Bakers working is working the press all the time and and regan are really trusting men and he's assuming that the trust, the staff doing the best thing for and plus at the end of the day, they convinced him he was doing the right thing.

Look, reagan called me in in december of nineteen nineteen eighty one and he uh took to consult on his eighty two state of the union address and he gives me this long lecture about how lady thatcher screwed up by raising taxes and in in britain, how SHE by changing her mind by reneging ing on her plan that he had cut taxes by raising taxes where he gave me in as long economic lecture about what a stupid mistake he made you should never done that and I thought, boy, good for him. He's sticking by his guns. He's not going to raise taxes ah this this next year and then he signs on to this tax equity and fiscal responsibility acta in in one thousand and eighty two.

Now he once he does that um is gonna he's going to sign under this bill he starts calling in, he calls in marty Anderson and he calls in leno sugar and he calls me and and he calls us all and he in order to tells, I don't want you guys arguing against me on this out in public because i'm changing my mind. Obviously, they've convinced that that is not actually raising taxes. mr.

Present, you know, these are only excise taxes. They aren't real tax increases because aren't income taxes. And then they have convinced them that we're going to get three dollars and budget cuts for every dollar of excise tax you raise.

And then in one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight, when we're uh working on the uh his um uh the speech for a well speech to the republican convention, he is he does pounding on his own death to me he says the fell is misled me, he says down and he says they promised me three dollars and budget cuts for every dollar of tax increase. Instead for every dollar of tax increase. I got a dollar seventy um students for every uh I got a dollar seventy um in uh revenues uh and I got a dollar seven of tax increases for every dollar and budget cuts. I got just see upset and he felt that he got screwed and I got lied to.

As part of his legacy, he raised taxes. A lot of people say that and it's unfortunate because IT stays, and years later to, like you say, regan, such a great president, he raised to try, you know, I was the president. I would do IT.

I don't know you. I would have a, because when I do calls, I have lawyers who hold lawyers accountable, and of that makes sense. So let you say this lawyers ranic contract form.

You're looking at an agreement and you'll send me to red notes and all the other stuff. Then i'll go to this lawd. Instead, you think this law is doing a good job doing this, and he holds them.

And like, now he missed this one part. Then i'll go to this one and I say, how about this one part? Oh, I missed that when I fix IT.

So sometimes you need like if you get the countdown that are doing numbers, finance and taxes, you almost have another team over here that no one knows about a shadow am that holds these guys accountable or or something you're not going to know everything about every law, about every IOS, about every code, about every cp, every account. But if you can do that, that allows you to hold people accountable. This to clip I was sharing with you that happened two weeks ago.

This is literally the same day when trumps interview you dropped. This was dropped six, seven, eight hours party, that end of your rob, if you can play this clip. Uh, uh h the gentleman that he's have an on right there is a comedian talk in a rogan.

Both of them are very good. He's very funny, but he is what he had to say. Go head rop. One of things I wanted to talk to you about, I wanted to play this.

but we decided we shouldn't play IT.

We don't want anybody to any part of, to get the episode of you on the .

view are .

this OK go at run is related to obama and bush. The bushes had dinner with the hinton the night before, and I K, okay. I always thought hinkle was alone.

That was a jody Foster. I had the delusion back, and ninety wounded by shooting the present. I can impress Foster, which me saying that now it's it's ridiculous, but that's what I believe about.

Then there's actually interviews stood where he said, uncle George told me to they just let him out yeah and now he's doing like planning coffee .

beans .

because he's 不 我 i pull up。 The story that we saw is our connection between n ankeny junior and the bush form. Can we give credit who ever wrote this? Who was a called, it's called brunch that com? You ever heard those guys right before? Now, okay, goa law, to see what is.

And about the way, the story, that of fact, this is a Better way to do IT. This was written new york times many, many years ago. So if you go morning, the terms among at the moment of the serrate on to witnessing ARM called little low rap at the bottom y talks about the bush connection.

Go lower, go lower, go lower. If you type in neil, want you just type in control. F neil, they are discuss hankly. I admit with neil bush earlier that you're at a party and became friendly with a four child of George ob.

Bush, according to garnett new services after news of assassinations ation temporo melbourne's ell a dinner in the shooting aftermath, the media swarmed the bush family on their connection to the hankies. The fact that they had a dinner schedule with, you know, Scott hinkle and absa Scott, his brothers are one that tried to shoot him. You've never heard of a story. No, I can he go to john hanky's, um go to john hinkleys.

That was the dinner with president val bush.

president bush's fourth sun. Okay, so if you can day go to zoom in a little bit, rob, right? There's so I can read IT right now IT says, uh, new york times the eldest hankly child, Scott dirty, the vice president of his father's company, and friend newbold, the son of the president Scott ankle and a date had been invited to have dinner with the Young bushes home last night, but the dinner was cancelled after the shooting and that's new york times, by the way, just kind of weird, like you've ever heard this before.

Wow, what do you think about this? You do you give any this, any crews like? Now.

just this is, so what if they did what they did happen?

Well, you know how london Johnson became a president. And the one story that no president never wants to leak is how john f. Kennedy was assassinated.

I interview to guy name jim Jenkins, who was one of the four men right after john PH Kennedy died, that held his brain help us. And these were a four military folks who held his brain, and they said, luck. He said, you know, he loved the life.

And he said, somebody had mess with IT before he came to us. And I said, what he means. So somebody had messed with IT before came to us.

And I went to through a rabbit hole. I interviewed another man who worked on that day, and I, bunch of different guys. I went to do the whole thing.

And a lot of people point to a london john being behind what happened to Kennedy, and a reason why I goes to london. John london, the sky so in this case, the fastest way to become a president is got forbid something happened to the president. You're a president, right? If the VP becomes a president, you know, so why would you meet with the brother whose brother try to .

kill the president? I see ron. It's just that if you knew George, if you knew George H. W. A. Bush, he was such a gentleman and and such a, that would not that would be so beyond the pale for him. Now I don't know about his kids, but that would be something beyond anything he would ever.

What was he like when you were around him?

He was, he was such a nice look. I I first connected with George H. W.

Bush when I was in the in the next White house, and he was ahead of the republican national, this an interesting story and I had the right speeches for people to support president next, uh, against impeachment and water gate issues and so bush was a republican national committee and so I had to write a speech forum defending Richard nixon so I wrote this tough speech, uh, for bush. So he went out the kicking somebody you kick in, but no, everything else. And he called me afterwards.

So this is in nineteen seventy four. I am guessing IT had to be late seventy three or somewhere and seventy four when he was had republican national national committee, and he he had had a courtesy to call me at the White house, and I was a deputy special assistant present, just has a small free, and to thank me for writing as me. And people almost never did that, and he thanked me and was a courtesy call and he said, can I just want to thank you for helping me with that speech? He said, you know, that's a tough duty out there just and he was Carrying the water for next son and and, uh and he didn't want to IT was because that was a tough job for him to do but he was headed than a republican national committee and he know he had to do because his loyal to present exciting and so i'm just saying that the kind of guy he was and every contact that I had with him when he was vice president, when he was a candidate for um and anyone sam as president and he was just always a the nicest gentle man i've ever know but I can't say anything else about them.

Yeah I had I had a moment.

have different views about the other family. Jb w.

really, did you have an .

interaction with him? I just indirectly, but I mean, I, I, I, I just wish that he was more active on behalf of this party at all.

You mean today? yeah. And you know when you say that, or are you yourself because you've spent time with nicks on with ragan, what a lot of different for.

I think you even helped, right? Found that mistaken for you were an adviser to Mickey cam. You were an adviser to couple other people, right? I found .

that .

mistake around. So I use someone that supportive of president trump right now going .

to against camera yeah so .

you're not the bushes are not fans of a trump. They haven't been since he made the comments set mate. He's not somebody that is liked by the bushes. And the way he went after jb, that's like the last time you heard anything good from bushes .

towards the trump look. President George a by bush doesn't have to like trump. He doesn't have to campaign form.

But there are hundreds of weather republicans. He can be out there helping. interesting.

And he doesn't. He is even after doing IT. And why do you think that is? I have no idea. But I would I wish he's got the ability to raise the other money and his former present united states. And I have any reasons .

why I think he does a specular.

I think I .

think the .

probably the reason is that he'll be asked about president champing. I I think there's ways to do that without but you know you don't have to answer that question. Just just think what come out here to help i'm out here to help can covert get elected the congress and in riverside county is that part of his .

duty you think like when he ran, other previous presidents help him out? Uh I wonder can you pull up up .

which uh I I here's what i'll say is that um uh um a present during bush got elected because republicans over the country helped them and everything good that happened to what happened because republicans over the country, no matter how they felt about his politics, helped them. And I go back to Richard nixon in nineteen.

Throughout his career, he campaigned for republicans, whether liberal, moderate, conservative, left wing, right wing, whatever he campaign for. Jacob's ava to was a liberal republican. He campaign for very cold water.

Who was a right wing republican. He, he campaign republicans over the country. And so if your part of the party and you or your you, your livelihood to me, and look, people say to me, are you a trumper?

I said, look on a chain republican. I believe in lower taxes. I believe in a strong national defense.

I believe in antique policies. I believe in a strong border. I believe in a strong foreign policy that makes me, that's the kind of republican I am.

So I think nexon believed in that. I think reagan believed in that. I think trump basically believed in that.

I can't defend a regiment of his personality. I don't have to. But I believe those things as against common hair being a left wing nut.

if SHE is a left ling not um you know or no just came out saying he's in doors thinker chinese came .

out during door singer they're .

just .

angry at him at a truck yeah well the the chinese are eliza because .

the comments made .

I guess yeah. Yeah, I guess .

what do you think like trump.

I think there's a lot of ways he could improve. I think he could have made this a lands', not A A big lang plan, but he could won this election very, very comfortable.

Ly, you think he will?

I think if he wins, it's narrow. Ly, but I think if you got done IT comfortably, he had changed a lot of things. But but you know, i'm not in the business anymore and .

already .

voted or I voted, you know why they give my, if I gave my advice I mean, I know susie. I knew susie wes when he was susie summer all and and uh uh uh campaign worker, the work for me and others in the eighty four raking and rain bush campaign but and I and I like her but and and but if I called her up and gave her advice and SHE pray, listen to me and but I would matter IT because he passed IT on and he .

he ignore IT. So well, last thing before we wrap up with you ever there, I once had Michael regan at an event I called that save in america, doing the impossible july of two thousand and nine, where I was dressed as George washington, my wife was dressed as lady liberty, and another one of my guys was guys was a addressed as lincoln. And he said, what would you like to let you speak about? I said, just tell stories about your father and you know, last time you seen and he want to visit him and and he's leave and he looks back, he forgot to hugging and he looks back his, you know, he's gone like this and Michael comes get out, gets out of the car and goals ox and leave will you with them at the last days when his memory and he was going through .

chAllenge in times are not really um no um well yes, I know um i'm okay. I can clear up one thing people blast me. Was he losing IT in his last days and I said, no, he was his brain was working perfectly at the end of his presidency. Um I madam in nineteen ninety, uh uh uh work for them on h some stuff in the ninety metem election his mind was working good I helped him on the ninety ninety two convention speech and his brain was fine but in ninety two I did run enter him um at um I care was fun raising event and IT was the first time he didn't recognize me. And that was two years before he declared as alzheimer's.

two years after the end of his presence.

Cy, no, that was four years. And you felt the major .

difference where he didn't recognize that I was .

the first time night, four years after his presentation. Y, as the first time he I walked up to and he he drew blank .

what was the exchange like .

um I just walked up to me and Normally if I walked up to women, he have a big grin on his face and say hello go I can and and he um I said a little most president the well great to see or something like that and he had this blank on his mind which you know it's like i've had that running in a high school classmates that i've haven't seen for fifty years but that's a little different but this was um I mean he he never did he never didn't know who I was what was a gap between the lesson he said .

four years and that was that .

was two years got IT four years after .

end of his presidency. Two years of the last time he saw you yeah and was Nancy this happened accidentally or was that a schedule thing that .

you came to the house and no accidents? I mean, I mean, I did IT was an a shock thing. I mean, I I walked up slowly to him.

And did you try to explain yourself.

like was what was, 嗯， no eyes, I told who I was and put put in context. And then we started visiting a little bit. And and then, but I did. I tried not to make him feel uncomfortable as part of that way.

What was Nancy like at that time at the last days?

I didn't have any real contact whether that much. And so we I I didn't you know, after the presidency, I didn't keep that much contact. I was so active with my other things.

I was running political campaign, had my own business and iran, oh, Jason, I was running government duck. Major campaigns in california, was helping with turny general campaigns. And I guess I should have stayed Better contact with regan.

I should have visited IT with them more. It's funny. I didn't and and he was not want to do phone calls with next.

Then we talk on the phone all the time. We talk on the phone constantly. Uh, reagan was not that kind of relationship. Regan, we didn't talk on the phone.

Interesting and with nixon um did you speak to nixon when pat passed away? The g interact that would been, awwww.

he was so he was devastated. I didn't only that.

I think i've seen him right. There's videos of of crime.

He was sobbing .

en .

that of the the .

video .

never posa al. And what did you .

guys ever have any exchange after the funeral order or no.

probably, i'm sure, because I was, you know, I was on the board of his library foundation and and we were so very close. At that time I was with him, and he was, he was really, he felt a tremendous sense of loss because he depended on pet. He was a very strong woman. And SHE never did leave him or turn her back on him and any of the controversial things he was involved in, SHE stuck with him and he lined on her and dependent on her as .

the voice of Billy gram.

And this is.

this is watching a man that's like watching a man that's strong in tears. It's like trump crying, know it's it's a it's a very tough thing to see what folks like that. Between the two, just a wild question.

You know what you will say about this if you have even have an opinion? Some tells me you're not going answered. Is you going to be very diplomatic about the answers? But I may be wrong.

Who do you think was a Better president? nixon? reagan?

Um there were two different, two different presidents.

You started diplomatic, which your answer?

There you can. There's no answer that question. Two different there. They had two different times of history. There were the two leading cold war presidents. Nixon said the groundwork for region to be a great president.

Nixon set the ground work for raging to be a president, but great president. Then indirectly, I take that as maxon.

Now I just saying they worked in, they were collaborators.

They were they were there's no nick and as their regan.

I I don't think of an answer. You can answer that question.

Yeah, yeah. Did you ever spend time with the Young and Roger stone back in the days or no? Would you ever want?

What was he like? Is just as crazy .

luna y standing what do you ever Rogers on story .

just it's just always, no, I don't have any special stories about them, just you are the pain and ask back and that's .

that that's a .

picture of a that now I know back in the next ten days, back in the seven early seventy.

he was a big next guy yeah.

yeah, yeah. Uh, every, uh, is Roger stones listening of every of Roger stones story. You got to cut IT by eighty percent. Then could could half that, the forty percent.

Okay, you're seeing exaggeration. You're you have you seen a recent movie about the president trump that just came up at the time so much you wouldn't see IT stone in IT sexy, very interesting how they paint him to be.

I love that is super and and I was just on the show. Yeah, I love the guy is.

well.

look, the fun thing i've head. I been in politics since nineteen sixty eight. I've had a wonderful career, the personalities i've been worth and just I turned down clane's, what? Run his campaign for mayor?

Clane's, what? Yeah, he called me up a one of may run his campaign for mayor um I turned them down. You know right that he scared you.

No, no, no. I didn't have time. I said I don't run mayor campaigns. I'll get you somebody to do that for me um uh just um but never .

reach .

out or no no no, you're not a fan. I I don't know, I didn't reach out. I think prison, I told me, was more conservative than he was.

but have no idea how was .

the comedian is great, wonderful man. And you know, we had the biggest and one of the biggest and slides in history h eighty six ah just totally underestimated. He there needs to be a book writing, but I don't have um I should have I should write a book about somebody needs to write a booky at a great governance, have more integrity and Price of the man of most integrity and politics that i've known and respect.

IT was your fighter. Was he a .

tough guy? Tough guy.

Respected is the highest ranking. He's the highest ranking .

in omean right in public. We gotten elected narrow ly in one nine hundred and eighty two, then gotten reelected by massive landline and eighty sixth, uh, by twenty three percent, twenty three percent.

The chance of that happening today, california, that there's a guy I don't if your big fan of or not the sky and lusson I don't you form, you're not a fan yeah well, look, it's it's been great heaven you on um we're going .

to put the link or hope I disappointed.

I like stories. That's what I I like stories. I i'm fascinated by politics.

My parents, I grew up in a weird family where one side they were coming as the other side they were imperious. And that was my introduction to politics. One side that.

you know, where your man was a communist was was .

part of the two day part, and they were part of two day party. The bible was the carmax communist manifesto, which I read, and you have to kind of find out what that was all about. But now I see this game is a very interesting game, very, very interesting game.

This political game, very. And I learned politics and business when I started competing. And i'm like, way to minute you guys flip on.

You were nice to mean, now you are sound of a bitch. What happened to you? Oh, because we're taking a market eye and you guys teamed up together.

So this is all politics. No problem that have some fun. And IT was actually fun seeing what that was like.

So any time are your stories like the ones you're calling me right now fascinate or by but I proceed, by the way, do you know how the thing we came out happened? Somebody on moneth reached out to me and they said, uh, rob, did you know the story? They reach to me, they said on monnet, hey, you need to have him on cans gotto get on the podcast.

I'm like, got to be me here. Let me look into IT and and I let go. Wow, what an interesting story. Let's figure out where to get this work in in.

know you? You need to matter.

She's a jar, big a little. He is outside and respect. That's the power of the neck. By the way, you have to respond back as people are paying for respond. That's why that that works.

Effect vely, yeah, well, she's a job or meeting girl.

I look forward to meeting girl. Sir IT is a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoy this two hours with you.

I got to tell you, good for you. You went two hours on a podcast. A lot of people can do IT.

How do you, how would .

you do eighty years? Eighty years old?

You to our just, this is so impressive. I, by the .

way, no bathroom breaks, no edit, nothing. You ve got to respect that. So great to have you on absolute pleasure.

I look forward .

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