First Time Founders with Ed Elson – How Bobbi Brown Built A Beauty Empire
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Scott, how much do you know about the beauty industry? More than your average straight white guy. I worked with L'Oreal, Estee Lauder, LVMH, Clarins, MAC. And what were your main takeaways? That it's a really impressive industry. It attracts a lot of very smart people. It's a growing industry. It's a fantastic high-margin industry that it's all about. I mean, it's kind of the ultimate branding thing.

celebrity death match because they're all kind of selling the same mud. I mean, it really is kind of 90% branding. And there's a ton of innovation there. The beauty industry or the luxury industry, it doesn't get the credit it deserves in terms of innovation. True innovation around branding, they were some of the first to go vertical, have celebrity spokespeople, embrace social movements. John Dempsey at Estee Lauder was one of the first people to embrace

gay people and transgender people as spokespeople. So they were always kind of cutting edge. It was also an industry that advanced female executives pretty quickly. So I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with those companies. Welcome to First Time Founders. I'm Ed Elson. In 1991, one woman forever changed the makeup industry with a bold mission to enhance, not alter, a woman's natural beauty.

Her approach redefined how we think about makeup, and her name became synonymous with innovation all over the world. After building a billion-dollar brand, she stepped away from the company to return to her entrepreneurial roots. She has succeeded as a makeup artist, an entrepreneur, a television personality, and a writer. As a true legend in the industry, she continues to reshape the beauty landscape, this time with Jones Road, a new makeup company built on the idea of clean beauty.

This is my conversation with Bobbi Brown, the founder of Bobbi Brown Cosmetics and Jones Road Beauty. Bobbi Brown, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you. Nice to talk to you. I think most people know the name Bobbi Brown. I mean, you go into any department store in the world, you've seen that name. I don't think as many people know the story of Bobbi.

Bobby Brown, the person. So I want to start there. And I'd love to get a sense of your childhood to begin. So...

Tell our audience, where did you grow up? What were you like as a kid? What were your kind of hobbies? How did this all begin? Well, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and, you know, I just fell in love with makeup as a young kid. I used to watch in awe as my mother would get ready for dates with my dad and she was incredibly glamorous. I never was.

And how I was as a kid, I mean, pretty normal, I guess. I didn't really excel in anything. I had a lot of friends. I was, you know, very social.

And, you know, when I didn't get good grades, my parents decided they should stop punishing me because I probably wouldn't amount to anything. And I think what just that meant was they just didn't see my career as, you know, a businesswoman. Were you excelling in makeup? I mean, where did this makeup habit start? No, I did not excel in makeup. I just loved it. I just loved it. And I loved, you know, watching my mom do it. I loved...

playing with it and as a middle school kid, you know, every middle school kid is insecure. And so I discovered that I could put a little bit of makeup on and look better, but I didn't want anyone to know I was wearing it. So I would mess around with it. And then when I went to college, um,

I transferred a couple times. I thought college was so boring and I didn't want to go to school. And my mother said, "You can't drop out. You have to do something." "Mom, I have no idea what I want to do." She said, "Okay. Pretend it's your birthday. You could do anything you want. What would you want to do?" And I just, I thought for a nanosecond. And I said, "I'd love to go play with makeup at the department store." She said, "There it is. Be a makeup artist." And I said, "I don't want to go to beauty school." She said, "I'm sure there's a college."

And I found a college that let me make up my own major, and that's where I went to school. No idea what I was going to do with this major, a Bachelor of Fine Arts, but I got one. And so then you moved to New York City, right, where you're working as a freelance makeup artist. Yes.

Did you know at that point that that was going to be your career in the beauty industry, doing makeup? I thought that was going to be my career. I never thought anything past being a makeup artist. And, you know, when I moved to New York, I didn't know anyone. And there was no internet to even figure out who anyone was. So I would go stand at newspaper stands and look in the magazines and see who were the people I should call.

which I did and opened up the Yellow Pages and looked under makeup. I started just putting a portfolio together and I thought, my dream is to have a Vogue cover. I wanted to make up for a Vogue cover. It took me seven years and I got a Vogue cover. I started this great editorial career being with all the fabulous people and traveling a bunch and I made a name for myself.

never thinking or knowing where it was going to lead. And then you started...

your company, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics. But it wasn't really a company because I didn't start, I didn't really start a company. So what had happened was I fell in love and I didn't want to travel anymore because I didn't, I would have missed my, you know, then fiance. And so we moved to New Jersey, believe it or not, from New York, which was pretty, you know, out of the box because no one did that back then. And

And I just said, I can't keep traveling. And I met a chemist at a shoot and I said, I've always wanted to make a lipstick that looked like lips. And so I made a lipstick and I'm like, wow, this is cool. I bet people will buy this. And I started selling it. I never thought I would be a big brand. I never thought I would be a no name. I never thought anything. I just, wow, this is a cool lipstick. I'm usually in the moment. Yeah.

Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, you wanted to make a lipstick that looked like lips, which today I don't think sounds like a very controversial statement. But back then, interestingly, it was. And I think the thing that you are known for in the industry, what you pioneered was this natural look.

This idea of making your face not as made up as it used to be. I mean, for those of us who like don't know about this, and I have to admit, I'm sort of one of these people, what did makeup look like before you? What was new about this natural look?

Well, first of all, you know, when you would—a makeup artist would do someone's makeup for a magazine or if you went into a department store and you would put this foundation on that was whitish or pinkish or just ashy, and then you'd have to put all this makeup on top.

that was so bright and garish, you'd have to blend it. And by the time you're done, it just looked, the best way to describe it is artificial. It just didn't look natural. And for some reason, even back then, when the girls walked in the shoots or washed their faces and left, I realized they look so much better.

Like, so I started doing makeup that looked like them. Like, I would use a blush. Sounds crazy. That was the color of their cheeks when you pinch them. I would use a foundation. How about this for a...

you know, an aho moment, like a foundation that was the color of your skin. No one did that. What do people think when you come in there and you say, I want to, you know, make it look the same color as their skin as it is now? Do people say, well, that doesn't make any sense? Did they say, that's not the point of this industry? Many of them said, you're never going to work if this is the kind of makeup you do. People, this is not what's in it.

And I'm like, yeah, but I like it. And there were some photographers didn't hire me again because I didn't do that kind of makeup that, you know, sometimes bordered on the drag queen makeup. It just wasn't my style. It wasn't my aesthetics.

However, I loved when I worked with creative people that would push me to get out of my comfort zone and do something very strong and avant-garde, but it was still my style. So that was kind of how I honed my skills. And then within a few years, I mean, you start selling this lipstick at Bergdorf Goodman and it starts doing really well. And then it's kind of like...

this smash hit in a very short period of time. So what were some of those big wins that you experienced in those few years back in the early 90s when Bobbi Brown Cosmetics was really doing well? I also had two children by then and, you know, lived out of the city. So I was a working mom commuting back and forth to the city. So, you

You know, it was a whirlwind, truthfully, you know, two boys that were two years apart and a husband that was in law school and this company that had taken off. So it was pretty incredible. And I'm not sure how I got through it, except I just am the kind of person I get through things. I'm like, oh, that didn't work. Let me do it this way. So I've always been resilient that way.

It was exciting. It was fun. And I started doing less magazine shoots in favor of doing things that will promote the makeup. So, you know, going on the Today Show, I became the beauty editor and I taught women how to be a makeup artist. And they would end up running to a counter to buy makeup. So...

You know, it really took off. And I guess it was four and a half years after Bobbi Brown Cosmetics started that we sold it. Were you surprised by how well it did?

I was not. I was excited. I was thrilled. And I really thought what I was doing was better than anything on the market. I don't know if I'm cocky. I don't know if I'm naive. I just think what I do is better. I can't help it until I think something really sucks. And I'm like, all right, that was terrible. I go both ways, but...

I was excited and I was really busy, really busy, both at work and at home. And what's amazing is how quickly this all happens. So this was like around four or five years after you launched this company. Then you get this call from Estee Lauder who were looking to buy it.

What happened there? Well, we were beating them in the stores. You know, we were number one in Bergdorf and Niemann's and, you know, Lauder always was. So they went and they said, who is this? What is this? And we weren't for sale, but we ended up selling the company. And I stayed as an employee, a corporate employee for 22 years. And it was about almost $100 million. Was that

a difficult decision? No, it was not a difficult decision. My husband and I had business partners that were...

A little bit difficult. And so I never felt I sold to Estee Lauder. I sold to Leonard Lauder. And he just, you know, became my biggest supporter. And he just, I knew he supported me. I knew he believed in me. And he, I felt he was my partner. And he introduced us, my husband and I, to so many things. And we, and the partners. And we couldn't have done it without Estee.

you know, Estee Lauder. We didn't know. And also he said probably the thing that made the most sense to me. He said, I know what's important to you and that's being a mom and being with your kids. And we can help you have both worlds where we could do the things that you don't really care about and you could be as involved and as in charge as you want. What was that like to meet Leonard Lauder, who's kind of this icon in the beauty industry? I mean, considering...

how quick your rise was and then you're suddenly catapulted up there. Then I assume you're meeting and having meals with this titan of the industry. How did that feel? Well, it was so, so cool, first of all. And anyone that knows Leonard, he is the warmest, nicest guy, so inclusive, making sure you're okay, making sure everything's working. So, you know, you don't get business partners like that very often. Yeah.

So it was amazing. And we would go to all of his, you know, his art shows and openings and galas and sit at his table. And, you know, it was for Stephen and I, we would just be like, this is so interesting.

You know, met great people. And then in 2016, you decided to leave. Was it hard to leave this company that you'd built yourself? It was hard and it was really easy because, you know, for so many of the years, things were great. And there was a whole bunch of years that things were not great. It was not an overnight decision. It was a lot of angst and agony. And, you know, eventually...

It just, it reached a point and it was like, okay, done. And it was tough and not easy after I left to kind of figure out who am I? What am I going to do? Am I going to be a one hit wonder? You know, what am I going to do with my time? Like I didn't need to work, but I also didn't need to learn how to play golf or tennis or anything. Yeah.

Yeah, what did you do with your time right after that? I started a bunch of new businesses. I, you know, that's what I did. I had, my husband and I developed a hotel in Montclair called The George. We have a photo studio, an event studio called 18 Label. I started a line of supplements and wellness that I launched with Walmart. I went back to being a makeup artist. I filmed a masterclass. I mean, I did a lot of interesting things, but

until my non-compete was up. And I didn't know I was going to have another beauty company, but I did. We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from the Fundrise Innovation Fund. Think of the five biggest names in AI today. How many of those companies do you own shares of? Probably not many. Maybe...

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which you launched on October 26th, 2020, which was the exact day that your 25-year non-compete with Estee Lauder ended. So my question was going to be, was this always part of the plan? I mean, it certainly looks like it, but you say, no, you didn't know. Well, the

The plan of when I was going to launch it came after I realized I wanted to do something again. And I kept everything under wraps because I had a non-compete. So I worked on a couple products with a very small team of one. And I wasn't sure how I was going to launch it. At first, I said, well, I'll just launch it on Etsy. I'll start selling a pencil on Etsy. I'll start...

And I had a four and a half year left on a 25 years when I left the brand. That's a really long time for someone that doesn't have a lot of patience. Everybody just said, wait, just wait, wait till you're free, wait till your non-compete is up. And we did.

And, you know, think about it. We launched the day the non-compete was up, and that was one week before the then-presidential election, in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of all the social unrest, and everyone said, don't do it. Every PR guru I talked to said, you're out of your mind. You're out of your mind. And I just didn't listen. Just like I didn't listen when they told me I need to do a different kind of makeup. It just felt right. I'm like, no, this feels right.

I mean, I think about this with my own work too, where it's like, I find that the best stuff is the stuff that I truly believe is good. And I'm just kind of convinced by it and I'm not really sure why. And you've sort of done that over and over again. Where do you think that comes from?

Well, it's not that I don't listen because I listen to what they say, but then I decide what's right for me. And I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, but I want to do this and I think it's right. I don't know where it comes. I don't know where my gut comes. My gut is not always right. It's often right and it's many times wrong. So I just, no, this makes sense. Why not?

And I'm also someone that I don't believe in failure. Like, so what? We do something and we say, well, that was really dumb. That didn't work. All right, well, let me do something else that taught me that I can't do this again. So I just start again, brush myself off and say, let's go do this.

This company, Jones Road, is the opposite of a failure. I mean, I'm just looking at the financials here that have floated around online. My understanding is that Jones Road did $20 million in revenue in its first year. And then last year, it was around $150 million in revenue. $157 million. There we go.

What do you think has made this company such a success? Oh, my God, it's not just me. You know, I mean, I'm certainly part of it. And what I again, what I believe in is making makeup that when you put it on, you just look better. I mean, a stupid concept right now. That's why people wear makeup.

And I don't listen to all the noise out there of what should be done or what other people are doing because that's great for them. And, yeah, there's a market for makeup, you know, to contour and overline your lips and, you know, do all those crazy things. It's just not my market.

But there's enough people that just want to look better. And, you know, the hashtag I started when we launched Jones Road, which no one uses except me, because I guess no one uses hashtags anymore, was how not to look like shit. Like, that's why I wear makeup. Because I'm like, I just look like shit. What am I doing here? When you look back at Bobbi Brown Cosmetics, which you launched in 1990, and then you look at Jones Road, which you launched...

30 years later in 2020, what would you say are like the main differences in the beauty industry back then compared to today? Like what are some things in your overall strategy that you had to change just because we're living in a new era? Right. Well, so many things. First of all, distribution. You know, we're not in department stores. I'm in one store in the world. We are in one store in the world, and that's Liberty in London. Right.

Because it's Liberty. I mean, there's no other store like that. And I think also just doing things differently. So our current CEO happens to be this mastermind of digital marketing. Weirdly enough, he also happens to be my second son, which is just the weirdest thing to think that this kid who didn't really care a thing about makeup, but he and his, you know, like...

just really made a huge difference. And now he's running the company and

I mean, he has finance reporting to him. He has, I think, I'm not sure if he reports to me or I report to him. It depends, you know, who you talk to. And his wife is our head of brand. So weirdly enough, we have turned into a family business. My husband is the, you know, the head of our board. And, you know, my other kids are there when I need their opinion, which they're very loudly give to me.

And, you know, it's just the world is different. And I think it's so interesting to do things different ways, to market it different ways, to talk to your customer the way you would talk to a friend and not have layers. That's the biggest thing. Not have layers and not waste time, energy and money on consultants that you don't need. What do you mean by layers? Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. To get something approved, you know, at the height of my career at the big corporate company, there was people that you just had to get all these people's opinion on from all the different departments and corporate and internal. And now it's, you know, I make the final say on some things. Cody makes the final say on other things. And, you know, we work it together. So you have a conversation about,

you hash it out and then a decision is made. Yeah, it does feel that direct to consumer is this, or maybe we just call it direct, this idea of getting rid of all of the intermediaries, whether it means trying to make a corporate decision and then having it go through this long chain and then finally being spat out at the other end.

Companies are trying to get rid of that. And then we're also seeing it in marketing and entertainment where podcasts like ourselves, we're just putting our stuff direct out to our audience. It feels like this is sort of a new trend. And it does seem, I mean, you're almost 100% D2C at Jones Road.

How do you create that culture in your company? Like, how do you keep those layers from getting into the structure? And how do you keep everything as direct as you have it now? We're pretty lean. We're pretty scrappy. And we tend to hire, you know, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but, you know, younger people with less history of experience.

I mean, our creative director, it's her first job. And she's phenomenal. And she's... I don't even think she's 27 yet. I don't know. She might have just turned 27. And she's just talented. And...

So, you know, there's sometimes that gets frustrating because people don't have the experience, you know, and I'm not going to say the maturity, but the experience to say, OK, wait, you know, this has to be done or that has to be done. But they're learning, you know, they're learning. And I'm learning, by the way, that it's my job to not only expect them to do it, but also to teach them.

Like, okay, let's look at this. Wouldn't it make more sense if we did this two months earlier and not the day before? I keep getting, like, things to approve on my... I'm like, oh, my God, it has to go up tomorrow. I have to look at it now. But, you know, whatever. It's a new world. And in order to be successful now is you have to, like...

Just be different and just be open and scrappy and not waste money. Just going back to the differences between then and now, I mean, you're in this unique position. You started two successful companies in the same category in totally different times. And I'd be interested to know, to understand your views on just how

What role is social media playing in the beauty industry today? And how important is it for your strategy? Well, it's super important. And for us, it's very authentic. And I have actually had a couple podcasts that I was a host of. I'm not anymore. And, you know, I think all those things just brings you to a new audience. And the health of any company is

are, yes, your existing customers, but you're, you know, your new customers. So for me, doing new media is super important. I opened a Substack last year. You know, there was three people that read it and now it's growing and now everyone's talking about Substack.

So, TikTok was huge for us. It quadrupled our business. We had a bunch of viral moments. And, you know, we're not doing that anymore because that's not working the way it was. So, you kind of have to shift and be open and change.

Cody is a very big proponent in our digital marketing and ad spend. So I don't know exactly what he does. I don't even know how much he spends. I just know that, you know, we have healthy sales. And I know people that watch cable TV tell me they see my commercial.

I don't watch cable news, but apparently it's on every cable show. So especially in Florida, everyone stops me and says, I saw you on CNN. I saw you on Fox. I saw you on... And everyone yells at me like, why are you on CNN? Why are you on Fox? I'm like, all right, everyone just stop. It's just makeup. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny. You've basically found success in every...

every entertainment medium or every digital channel or TV channel, every medium, you've succeeded as a makeup artist, you've been a successful entrepreneur, you've been, you know, you've written several successful books.

I kind of just think of you as, yes, a makeup artist, but more importantly, just a serial achiever in just, it sounds like whatever you put your mind to. So this is kind of a trite question, but I do think it's important. What do you think is the secret to your success? Why do you think you have been successful in all of these different realms?

Well, I actually have an answer that I believe. There's two things. One is I'm incredibly naive. Like, I don't think it's not going to work. I don't think I'm too old. I don't think I'm too short. I don't think I'm, you know, too anything.

And the other thing is I'm really good at knowing what I have no idea what to do, and I hire people that do it. So I've written nine books. I don't know, nine or ten, I forget. I don't know how to type. Okay? And I've written nine books. And half of the books, by the way, I photographed first, and then I wrote the books to the pictures. So I just figured out if I do things the Bobby way—

For me, it works better. And by the way, when people work with me, they either get me or they don't. So I'm writing a book now and I take a screenshot of the pages and I send the screenshot to someone and the screenshot is a pen that I took to the paper and all the changes and someone has to retype it and send it back and then I do it again. So that is not for the faint of heart. Yeah. It's also called incredibly good delegation. Yeah.

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in addition to these brands you've built in the beauty industry, you've also built this personal brand. Like, you know, people know...

Bobby Brown. They see you on TV. They read your books. For whatever reason, Bobby Brown, the person, is intriguing to people. I'd love to just know more about that. Was this intentional? Do you think of yourself as a brand? Do you try to brand yourself? I don't try to do anything, and I don't think of myself as a brand. And I think why people relate to me is because my...

I'm exactly the same way on TV and in interviews as I am if I was at your house. And I'm real and authentic. I mean, I've, you know, I talk about my three sons.

you know, more than I talk about my business. Like if someone says, how are you doing? I mean, it's about my kids. It's the most important thing. My marriage at 36 years, the most important thing. It feels like the beauty industry is an industry where this is uniquely important, like the role of celebrities and influencers. And I think about all of the beauty brands that have, you

in the last few years that are started by celebrities. Like you've got like Kylie Jenner's company and Rihanna has one of the biggest makeup companies in the world and Selena Gomez. Like this is a very celebrity heavy industry. And I'm wondering if that is a new phenomenon

Did the beauty industry look like that several years ago, back when you were building Bobbi Brown Cosmetics? And if not, why has this

influencer culture emerged in this industry? Well, it's funny. You mentioned three of the celebrities that have substantial brands and something. It's not just their name. Like they have a point of view and, you know, they're doing well for a reason. There's a lot of celebrities that their name is attached to it, but there's no real connection or the products aren't good.

Like, it's—the products have to be good to be able to have a brand. And when I was first starting, there was no celebrity brands. There was no makeup artist that had brands. You know, there was Elizabeth Taylor, who was the face of, you know, whatever—

Revlon it was, or, you know, models and actresses that were paid by companies to be their spokes... I think they called them spokespeople. Spokespeople. That's funny. Right. I mean, I think that's what it was. And they were in all the ads and all of that. They didn't own the brands. I mean, now I do think it's pretty amazing and cool that so many...

And celebrities, actresses, you know, retired sports players now can have their own thing because, you know, a lot of careers are done when you're 30. And so it's good. You know, I think it's a wonderful thing that people could be an entrepreneur and business people as they get older. I look at my dear friend, Michael Strahan, you know, who is a retired football player, and the guy has blown up.

you know, talk about a personal brand. So it doesn't always work and it's not easy. That's the thing. People think it's easy. None of it is easy. It requires constant work. And when things don't work, you need to push back and say, okay, things are not working now. What do we do? Do you think it's essential today to have that level of digital, social influencer presence for a consumer brand like yours?

Jones Road or any of these other beauty companies? Like, is it essential that you have a big following somewhere to successfully launch a consumer product like this? I would say it's pretty essential and pretty important. And, you know, the main thing you want to do is to have people know about you.

or discover you through whatever. And, you know, social media, if you're not overspending on, you know, hiring companies to come in and do everything...

It's pretty much free. I think we have two people now in our social media department where we used to have none, and whoever was around would be helping and doing it. And some brands have 30 people and have agencies. So it all depends what's right for you. And I guess because they have

me. They don't need to have a spokesperson that they pay. I'm kind of a big spokesperson for it. And, you know, we have an opportunity to reach a younger consumer. I don't know, do the 30-year-olds know about me? I don't know. You know, how do we reach them? I don't know, you know, but so, you know, you always think about that. What are your views on social media in general? Does it

make you anxious? Does it make you excited? Like, do you feel overall positive or negative and the way you

were headed into this digital world? I think both. I mean, I'm glad I don't have three young daughters because I think it would be really hard. I mean, it was hard enough when you didn't get invited to a party when you were a kid. And to see the party and all your friends online, you know, is tough. And, you know, when I see certain activations that brand has done that I didn't get invited to, by the way, I don't want to go. Yeah.

I just wanted to be invited. So I'm like, oh, I didn't get invited to that. You know, right. I mean, we all feel like that. So I'm like, yeah, okay. You know, I think it kind of, I take it with a grain of salt. And I think the positive thing is the way that I personally connect with people. I've booked models. I've found beautiful women who are posting exercise pictures of them. And

okay, if I send you makeup, do you want to try it? And then they start posting. So we've developed a community of people. We have a Facebook group. It's called The Roadies. You know, Jones wrote The Roadies. Last count, there was 66,000 of them. 66,000. And if you go on there and you see these women talk to each other, and if someone says, I can't use this because of this,

22 people say, no, no, no, you're using it wrong. Let me show you. I mean, and if I need to know something, what other colors do you want me to put out? Oh my God, I get flooded with the list.

So, you know, I personally use that as my market research and my community that, you know, will tell me what they like and what they don't like. Well, Bobbi, you've been very generous with your time. Thank you. You have your first short television series on YouTube coming out a few days after this episode airs. You want to tell us a little bit about the show and how it came about? Sure.

Sure. It's called I Am Me, and that's the brand pillar of Jones Road, which is teaching women, like, you know, I'm not trying to change you into someone else. You're fine the way you are. I mean, makeup is a nice tool to make you feel more like yourself. And this started because we hosted at the George Hotel restaurant.

a women of influence sleepover with women like Gloria Steinem and Deborah Roberts and all these amazing women where we talked about body image and hair and all these different things. And we spent 24 hours together and it was incredible. I wanted to figure out a way how to bring this to a larger audience. So

It's being sponsored by JP Morgan. So the conversations, they're 10 to 15 minute conversations, and they're going to be about confidence, self-esteem, and being comfortable with your career, your money, because, you know, how men and women, you know, we're not that different that way. How we feel about ourselves and how we feel about our careers and are very, they're very kind of hand in hand. Yeah, just while we're on that and to wrap up,

confidence. You are an extremely confident person. Where does confidence come from? How can people be more confident in their daily lives? I realized, probably not until I was in my 50s, what is confidence? Everyone talks about it. How do I become confident? It's really simple. Just be comfortable in who your skin and who you are. When you realize this is who I am, take it or leave it, that's being confident.

I tried to change, but it didn't work. So being myself kind of fit the best. Bobby Brown is the founder of Jones Road Beauty. She is a legend of the beauty industry. Bobby, this was so fun. Thank you for joining the show. This was a real treat for us. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.

Our producer is Claire Miller. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. And our engineer is Benjamin Spencer. Thank you for listening to First Time Founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tune in tomorrow for Profit Markets.

All right, Sean, you can do this promo talking about all the great Vox Media podcasts that are going to be on stage live at South by Southwest this March. You just need a big idea to get people's attention, to help them, you know, keep them from hitting the skip button. I don't know. I'm going to throw it out to the group chat. Kara?

Do you have any ideas? In these challenging times, we're a group of mighty hosts who have banded together to fight disinformation by speaking truth to power, like the Avengers, but with more spandex. What do you think, Scott? I'm more of an X-Man fan myself. Call me Professor. Can I read minds? I can't really read minds, but I can empathize with anyone having a midlife crisis, which is essentially any tech leader. So

Minds are important, Scott, but we're more than that. I think that you can't really separate minds from feelings. And we need to talk about our emotions and explore the layers of our relationships with our partners, coworkers, our families, neighbors, and our adjacent communities. I just want to add a touch more. From sports and culture to tech and politics, Vox Media has an all-star lineup of podcasts that's great in your feeds, but even better live.

That's it. All-stars. Get your game on. Go play. Come see a bunch of Vox Media All-stars and also me at South by Southwest on the Vox Media podcast stage presented by Smartsheet and Intuit. March 8th through 10th in Austin, Texas. Go to voxmedia.com slash SXSW. You'll never know if you don't go. You'll never shine if you don't glow.