Anna Kendrick Returns
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. We have an old friend here today. I just want to point out that you went all brown today and I went all gray.

I'm into neutrals this fall. Oh, it's a fall. It's a much larger project. It is. Okay. I don't have an explanation. Well, I do. I've been wearing these pants for about four and a half days straight. And I changed my top, my panties, my sockies, and my undershirt and my top shirt. Now, how long can you ethically go...

Without. Changing my slacks. I was going to say washing, but I think the answer, I think I might know the answer. Until they're visibly dirty. You get a stain. Yeah, because again, I have a layer between the inside and my groinal area. Sure. So I don't have really any concerns that I'm. But you are sitting on a bunch of stuff all day long. Yeah, and I'm never licking the backside of the pants when I'm done with all that. That you get under your covers? No. No.

Oh, you don't. That's more your move. Yeah, I do. I do. Although I did yesterday. Yeah, I like getting under there. I went ahead and laid down for a few hours yesterday in the middle of the day. That's nice. Yeah. It's fall. It's fall. That's part of my new look. Okay. Our, our,

Our biggest guest of all time is returning. Yes, huge. Yes, Anna Kendrick. She's so wonderful. The first episode was so special. It always comes up if ever we're doing an interview. And with good reason. She was so incredible the first time.

And she's wonderful. Not this time. No. I'm so kidding. No, she was absolutely wonderful this time. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, here's a little update because you'll, well, shit, I guess I'll save it for the end. Okay. Okay. Because there was real life growth on her end. Post-interview, as you witnessed and I witnessed. Okay. Anna Kendrick is an Academy Award nominated actor. Pitch perfect. A simple favor. Twilight up in the air. The accountant. And

And her new movie, which I genuinely loved, Woman of the Hour, and I'll add this, she had a consultant on this movie. If you haven't seen this movie, it's incredible. It's about this serial killer that was actually on the dating game in the 70s or 80s. It's so well made. She did such a great job, but she had a technical advisor on it who is a DA in Orange County for 17 years in the homicide area.

And he will be our guest on Thursday. He worked on this case. He worked on this case and he was an advisor for the film. And then we had him. So in a roundabout way, it's a woman of the hour week. That's right. And he's phenomenal. So listen to him on Thursday. I'm looking at you, but I mean them. You don't have to. You've already heard it twice. You haven't heard it yet. So please listen to it. I'll listen again. Okay. Yeah. Give it a shot. I will too. Please enjoy Anna Kendrick.

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We are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment.

Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984, this is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with. I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival Everett that is very, very hot right now. Well, there's so many good ones on the list. We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

I love Audible. I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing Fleas by autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life every night. Go to audible.com slash DAX and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com slash DAX. He's an object expert. He's an object expert.

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Oh my God.

We both have a tum nul. Wow, I'm way off the mark. No, you're in a sweater and full denim. But you're like a fashion girly. Wow, I can't believe you just said that. It does track that I would be dressed in the fashions of Dash as a full non-fashion girly. If I was dressed like Monica, I would feel like I wasn't really being real. Are you not a fashion girly? You're not a fashion-y? No, not really. I feel like you're fashion-y. She exudes fashion, but she's not adorned in it. I exude fashion?

You exude elevated. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Is that triggering? Exuding elevated? Yeah. Because that borders on pretentious. I remember my first photo shoots that I ever did. It was for Teen Vogue. I had mostly clothes from Old Navy. And so I would cut the Old Navy tags out

of the clothes before the photo shoot because I had to change. Then they hand me some really, really expensive item and I have to hand them my clothes and I wanted them to just think, oh, that's just some shirt from a mystery place. Yeah, or like, not salvage, but... Vintage. Vintage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, totally. No, I think that's exactly right. Trying to pretend that I was rocking like the vintage Levi's or something. And it was all just like Target and Old Navy. So in a way, when you're saying I exude elevated, I'm like, because in a way, my younger self is thrilled by that. But then I'm going, well, I don't know.

That actually feels like kind of a betrayal of, I guess I mean, recently, like a month ago, I was at a photo shoot and I was wearing something. I don't know if it was Old Navy, but it was inexpensive. Pedestrian. Pedestrian. Relatable. And I was like, oh, now this wouldn't bother me at all. Yes. If the fashion stylist saw that I was wearing something from Target or wherever. We're smack into the full arc of being alive. Yeah. Yeah, we are. Because I was unpunked and I made a total of $16,000 on that show.

I had Gap pants and I did have some salvage stuff. We're calling it vintage. I don't know. You keep calling it salvage. What I'm really looking for is... That feels like real junkyard stuff. Where you comb through the discarded... You mean consignment? You mean goodwill? Goodwill. Okay. Thank you. What else do we call that? Something shop. My full wardrobe was probably worth 350 bucks with everything. And then I'm getting invited to photo shoots and events and things like this. And everywhere I go, I'm like, I look terrible. I have very cheap boots on. Everything's a mess. Yeah.

and I have shame about it, or I did then. And yes, now on the other side of it, I have fake, this is hot news. I've never admitted. My Roadmaster station wagon has fake BBS rims on it. Real BBS wheels for that car would cost $3,800. I got some from China that are actual counterfeit and I got them for 400 bucks. A dupe. I feel like this confession is so wasted on me. It is. From your

I feel like you're saying something really juicy that like one person is going to go, whoa, I can't believe he admitted that. And I am like, you just said numbers and letters is what happened. That's right. Okay. So now we're fully back. Although my guess is...

I don't know what my guess is. That's a nice sweater. It is. That's no salvage yard. No, I think you might be right. I think I tried to dress up a little today. Let's take a peek at that. It looks cashmere. I want to say it's from. Ferrari. Reformation. Very cute. Monica, do you know what that is? I'm sorry. Come on. What are you thinking? And what's your sweater? Why is it so nice? Velvet. I went online. Velvet by Graham and Splash Please. How about this? Since we're not fashionistas, neither of us.

Do you find a brand you trust? And then that's it for me. I go to their website and whatever they have that comes out in my size, I'll just go, okay, I know I can trust you. This might be the heartbreak of being a girl. Maybe you could speak more to this than I could. I don't shop all that much, but I'll find a brand that I like and

then all the sizing will just change. The next season, everything will be completely different. And I'm not sure what happened. Sure. I struggle with, I like this brand so much, but now there's another brand I also like that's even more nice. Look, is it always kind of aspirational? Is it, is it like, Oh, I'm climbing that ladder is, it is. And I wonder when it will stop for me. So I had a coat. It was very nice. I lost it. And,

I knew in my heart that I should be very upset by this. This is a fancy coat. It was too much money and it's lost. But instead you were like, I

Yes, and I did. And I did. Oh my God. I know, I know. It's problematic. But I had your things. I had the old, I hated it. And I'm not doing the right thing like you're doing. No, you're doing exactly what feels right to you. Yeah, but mine's costly. And yours is not. Okay. Let's talk about...

You. Your last appearance. Yeah. Can I cry less this time? Am I allowed? My God. I certainly hope you don't want me to cry that much. No, I don't need you to go through anything deep again. You gave us your whole soul and it was really beautiful. I guess I'm interested. I can tell you from our perspective, first of all, and I told you when I called you the next day, it's really among like my mom and a few others, the most special of the whole seven years. That was incredible.

The response was humongous for us. It for sure is our biggest episode. 10 million people have listened. I literally didn't know that. It's enormous. It's our number one episode. I was just at the New Yorker Fest panel this weekend and I'm being interviewed and the touchstones are really my

my mom, day seven, and then your episode. These will come up every single time. Oh, you're kidding. Yes, I was wondering from your perspective. Is that annoying? Not at all. We're so proud of it. Oh, I'm so glad. And it's encouraging because it wasn't about anything fancy or celebrity-y. It was about everything we would hope that was good about the show. It was very confirming, if anything. But I was wondering, you were on the other side of that. And of course, you had some...

appropriate amount of fear of like, oh, am I letting this all out? And I guess I wondered two years after the fact, what was the response from your side? I remember actually, I think it was during the episode, you said something about how this was something really meaningful and me talking about like being on Broadway when I was 12 or something like that. That

It's just not going to impact someone else's experience and this will. And every now and then someone, like if I'm at a restaurant or something, someone might just slip me a note and wave. And there is a certain energy where I go, oh, I know what this is about.

And that does make me emotional. And I will not cry. I will not be the girl that cries on podcasts. I will not do it. That will not be my fucking thing. No, you should be the girl who always cries on podcasts because I don't think anyone's checked that box. It's a wonderful thing. You're just in touch. That's what we all want to be. But funny enough...

enough, this is really, really recently. I am really bad with technology and I'm kind of afraid of a lot of the buttons on social media. I know the ones to press and I just don't press anything else. Because you're afraid you'll start live streaming something? Basically, yeah. That happens, by the way. But I just figured out that there are all these requests...

for DMs because I have my DMs turn off and I was like, oh, what's in there? And there's a way that you can filter them. I wasn't really sure what I was pressing. I was just touching buttons. You were exploring. Yeah. And it was all of these requests from 91 weeks ago. And I was like, what happened 91 weeks ago? And I did this show 91 weeks ago. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. So that was amazing. Probably stark to see that. Yeah. And it was also, I will not cry. Yeah.

It was difficult to be like, oh, there's so many people that really relate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't get 10 million listens because no one understood what was happening. Quantum physics podcasts don't get 10 million. Yes, yes. Until you start crying about it. Oh, yeah. Let's reform education. I'll just go in and be like, I don't know why people aren't talking about this more. But

It's funny, I then listened to the episode when it was released, and I don't really know exactly the process of how you guys make the show after the guest leaves, but I was like, everybody should be able once in their life to tell their story and have Monica...

edit the story because I swear to God, it was this form of narrative therapy where I was listening. And I know that I was here for so long and the episode is kind of long, but she just lifted out all this kind of ballast.

And it really was like, oh, right, because that part wasn't important. She edited a movie. Yeah. It was incredible. I love that scene, but it doesn't get us anywhere. It's not at the heart of the matter. And I think I do get lost in the details sometimes. And what a gift that I got to come and do that. And I really felt like I was getting some kind of massive narrative therapy. I'm glad you're thanking her for that because Monica often goes unsung in that department. Monica will do things differently.

To protect your future self. I think people can tell their stories and when they ensnare people too much, Monica knows like, well, I think the message will be the same. We can save that person because the hangover of that moment. I think you're really great at that, Monica. I appreciate that. So the people that come up to you, does it feel...

It's markedly different than someone saying you're great in Pitch Perfect. Yes. And it feels much more connecting, which is not to say that I am whatever about someone saying, oh, you're great in Pitch Perfect, but it kind of immediately makes me want to talk to them. Yeah, because they didn't see the best. I don't want to say, I mean, they did see the best side of you, but in a movie, you're seeing the best version of someone lit perfectly and orchestrated. And then I think if someone responds to the real you, they're

I think it tells you, okay, so I can kind of trust you. I've been doing press for Woman of the Hour for a while now. And there was one conversation where there was just something a little strange about the conversation. And then once we were done, they cut the mics and they were telling me their story. And I was like, oh,

oh, that's what I was sensing. This is the real conversation. And then, of course, I'm like, well, this is a conversation I want to be having with you, not whatever the fuck that was. Let's redo. You know, I don't want to go to my next thing because it'll be kind of more of the same. But it's really fascinating the way it's just so much more connecting. OK, now I've come to tell the story because, as I said, it comes up often that episode. There's a part I tell. Curious how you feel about it, which was the next day I said to Kristen, I'm like,

I don't know how else to explain this feeling, but I feel like I slept with somebody. Oh, my God. And I need to call them and make sure they got home okay. And like, you left late. Did you get home? Okay, good. How do you feel about last night? Everything's groovy. I know what you're

what you're saying. And this is one of the things I love about the show and you and all these things, but that is the most provocative way of saying it. Yes. But it's the realest for me because it's a very visceral... And I remember you said that when we spoke. Okay. I was not offended at all because I completely knew what you meant was that something very intimate had happened. Yes. And we were strangers. Yes. So it was kind of like we met at a bar and it was an insanely intimate experience. He also asked someone the other day if they were half Asian and they weren't. Oh.

Well, I stand by that. No, I was like, why are you asking? Because she was lactose intolerant and 90 percent of Asians are lactose intolerant. That is not the reason I was expecting. Wow. He takes big swings with his words, as you know. How about this? I think it's really interesting when you feel a feeling and it's familiar, but it's a very weird feeling. So my example of this would be when I bought Kristen's wedding ring, when I was handing the man the credit card to buy it.

I had this like wave of a very, very, very strong and familiar feeling, but I couldn't place it. And I like handed it to him and I go, hold on a second. And I took it back. Obviously I was receiving some info and I thought about it for like 20 seconds and I go,

Oh, my God, I know this feeling. It's when you go get a tattoo and first they put an outline of it on your arm, which is temporary, and they transfer it. And then you look in the mirror and you go, OK, I like where it's placed. And then you go, OK, let's do it. And, you know, when you say, OK, that's a wrap, it's done permanent. And the only experience in my life prior to handing over the credit card that I knew I was making a permanent decision was tattoos.

Oh, wow. It's a rare feeling to make a permanent decision. It doesn't happen often. I imagine if you cut your finger off, you'd be like, okay, that's going to be gone for good. So I like when I feel something that's so specific and reminiscent, and then I'm like, I need to chase it down. So then I was like, oh yeah, it's a tattoo. Here's the credit card. Let's go. But that's what that was. I don't have any tattoos.

And I'm not married. You haven't bought a wedding ring. So maybe I don't know that feeling. I guess the closest thing would be buying a house, but that's not permanent permanent. It's not. Do you have animals? No. Me either. We're the same. Oh, my God. We're the same person. I bet if you implanted an embryo, you'd go, oh, here we go. This is for the rest of my life, this decision. Yeah, for sure.

Have you done, have you, well, have you implanted an embryo? No, have you frozen your eggs? I have. She had previously frozen an embryo with her last partner, or a couple. Mm-hmm.

But we're not talking about. No, but I have my own. Got your own stash. Yeah. I've got a little army. I'd love to see pictures or whatever they supply. But also Kristen texted me this morning. She did? Yeah. She texted me and was like, I know that Monica and Dax are so excited to have you back. And it was really so nice because I think I was a little nervous. Well, that's what I was going to ask. So I listened to it yesterday. I had listened to it when it came out. And then I listened to it yesterday on my hike. That's what I was going to ask.

That's always Russian roulette. If you've done a project you like and then you watch 10 years later, you're like, oh, yeah, that thing's not nearly as funny as I remember. All those things are best to just never revisit, I think. But I listened to it and it was really, really lovely. And then I found myself having some nervousness about it. And then I thought, oh, I wonder if Anna has any nervousness. Yeah, no, a ton. I can almost see you going like, I'm not coming back. I still love the place, but no need to ever come back. Oh, that's.

That's interesting. No, if anything, I never asked my PR people about coming for this presser because I just thought, well, I did it two years ago. That feels recent. They probably wouldn't want me back. But also I was feeling weird because I kind of ghosted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's fine. So after I recorded with you guys, Kristen reached out once and Dax reached out a couple of times and I low key ghosted.

And then I ended up voice noting Dax a couple months later. And I literally had the most cliche experience where I had micro-dosed mushrooms. And by the way, I just went on Stephen Colbert and talked about like this thing with mushrooms and blah, blah. And I was talking about it like it was my first time micro-dosing mushrooms. It's just because the story is better. Can I tell the truth on this podcast? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, you go on late night talk shows and you're like, well, what would make this story more interesting? Of course, you punch it up. It was the second.

Oh, my God.

Oh, wow. And I voice noted Dax all of this. And I loved it. It was so funny because then, of course, you voice noted me back and you were like, I'm so glad you said that. And I was worried that after the episode, you were like, yeah, regretful. And that maybe you were worried...

I felt exposed, exploited or something. Yeah, yeah. Which really was fascinating because in all my years of being a true dyed-in-the-wool avoidant type, at my big age, it had never occurred to me that when I low-key ghost on people, they think they did something wrong. I just assume that everybody goes, oh, God, Anna's such an asshole. No. And I can sort of tolerate that because I'm like, I guess I am. I don't know what my damage is, but this is like a thing that I do. And I was like, oh, of course.

Of course you think that it's you. I feel so thick to have been like, why would you think that? That's what I would think if someone did it to me. Right. So I think I was also a little bit nervous because I was like, oh, are they mad or something? Right. No. When you say you were insecure, can you dive into that a little bit? Yeah. No, for sure. I can't speak for anybody else, but certainly my avoidant style, the root fear is always, if you really got to know me, you would reject me.

If you really got to know me, you wouldn't like me or you'd discover the fundamental way in which I am wrong, broken, unlovable, etc. So especially being such a fan of the show and coming on and doing this episode and it was really emotional and revealing. And then I meet Kristen and Kristen's so lovely. And Kristen literally said something like, if you think we shouldn't be working on a friendship, I'm just going to have to disagree. So.

So sweet and lovely. And I really felt, not consciously, but I think subconsciously felt, well, this is as good as it's going to get. Like right now, they think I'm great. So all I have to do is just not let them discover that I'm totally rejectable, unlovable, etc. Yes. Unworthy of all of this. Yes. Yes.

That's very sweet. I'm going to quit while I'm ahead. This is the ideal situation. Never to be seen again. Yeah, very relatable. I want to give a BTS too because that was fantastic BTS. But after we recorded, you also reached out to me, which was very...

very kind and you apologized for potentially minimizing my experience of having been gaslit. Yeah. Because I think the thing about day seven is that we got to see the repair, but we weren't there for the harm. And I know that because of my history, I tend to just want to go like, OK, let's jump to the part where everything's fine. And that's not fair.

I had kind of forgot that part was coming on my hike. I definitely remembered your part. And then I got to that part. I was like, oh, I got it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all just my own discomfort with, oh, God, is everybody OK? Is this OK? Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, it was intense, but I really, really appreciated that so much. So thank you, you guys. So what was fun, though, when I listened to the episode on the hike, I was like, oh, we didn't even do the normal interview. No, we didn't do the normal interview. Oh, yeah, that's so funny.

funny because now when I listen to episodes, I'm like, huh, we didn't like really talk about, but that's fine. There are so many places where people have asked me about like, oh, so you grew up in Maine, but there are lots of interesting things along the way that I am quite interested in. And in fact, today, when I was doing my research on you, I went back to my original research. I didn't get the one thing you sat down. We learned your father had just passed. I was like, wow, I was crying within three minutes. That has to be a record for you guys.

And at first I was trying to play it off like I wasn't. I was just getting real quiet. It was like weeks before. Yeah, it was brand new. No, I mean, the funeral had been on the Friday and we were recording on a Monday. Yes, yes. Okay, last thing I want to say to you, and then I want to go to the original interview I was going to attempt to do with you two years ago. Hold on.

Give me half a second because I just lost it. It was so important, too. I have a question if you're going to think of it. Yeah, please, please. Okay, so that was two years ago. You were in a very specific spot, as we had just spoken about. Where are you? Like, are you feeling good? Yeah.

I'm trying to be honest about the fact that it is obviously significantly better, but I still have really low moments. And by moments, sometimes I mean months. Yeah. Which I think have actually been in some ways...

I don't want to say more difficult, but there's something about the acuteness of despair or distress in the aftermath of something really difficult that even if I wasn't really thinking about it at the time, it feels like, well, this will pass.

it's so new. And so when I have really low moments, it's really demoralizing because you're like, it's been years. I'm disappointed in myself. How is this still happening? I thought it would get better. And it does. And it is. But those moments, I have trouble figuring out what to cling to because you're just like, it's just here again.

again? Why? Go away. Yeah. There's this saying in AA, and I might get it wrong, but it's like, if you think of addiction as like walking into a forest and they'll say to you like, well, you were walking into the forest for 12 years and then you turned around and now you're trying to walk out. The notion that you're going to be out of the forest in 30 days or in a year or whatever is a little crazy. You put 12 years into this thing. So it's like you had six years walking into a forest and now you're three years out. And I've also heard quite

quite often from therapists that there is a bit of a pattern that people generally, it takes them about half as long as they were with somebody to get, have you heard that? Yeah, it did make me like, okay, well then maybe I'm doing the math. All right, we're getting close. Yeah, we got to clock our progress at all times.

Okay, remember what I was gonna say, and it's the last thing I'm gonna say about the housekeeping, but it's really just a thank you. So we started this Zero Expectations, but prior to starting it, I was very, very singularly focused on a lot of different metrics to determine whether I had made it, right? Whether it was you're in this kind of movie or you make this amount of money or you do X, Y, and Z, and then we'll check we're here.

And so that interview was at an interesting time because it was like a year into the Spotify deal, which was an enormous windfall of good luck. And in the wake of that, I got very confused. I don't even know how conscious I was. I was confused for a while, but there was a long while where I was like, well, this is weird. We've come to the place we were supposed to get to. In fact, we're even beyond the place we were hoping to get to. So.

What is it now? Like I've climbed the mountain almost. I've climbed the mountain and I was a bit wayward. I didn't know how to deal with having been to where I tried to get to.

In a weird way. And I felt a little purposeless. Not that I was ever doing it for money or for a deal, but it's just like, here's the thing. You won the big prize. Now what? And I'll say after I called you, when I hung up, I thought, I really know what this is again. If I could get to do that once a year or once every few years, that is it.

So it was really, really re-energizing and reconfirming of what the point of it all is for me. So thank you. That was a huge gift for me to have that experience and go like, oh, right, right, right, right, right, right. I'm reminded of what this is. Well, that makes me really happy for lots of reasons, especially because, you know, I love the show and listening to it and whatever. I'm not crying. You're crying. I am a little bit. Okay. You were on Broadway at 12. I never got to ask you about that.

I do need to know a little bit because I'm interested. How do we go from Maine to Broadway? I think that I was just kind of an opinionated, stubborn little kid. And that was something that I wanted to do. I've tried over the years to come up with a really kind of snappy, punchy story.

Yeah.

mostly because at the time they were putting up a revival of the Broadway show Annie. So every little 11 year old in America wanted to be Annie in the revival. If you had an agent, you had a slightly better shot of not just getting like kind of lost in a cattle call. And they made me read this Smucker's Jelly ad. They made me sing something and then they made me read like a Smucker's Jelly ad to see if they would take me on as a client. Even at maybe 10 or 11 or something. I remember thinking,

this is horseshit. This is embarrassing. For a little while, that agency ended up trying to send me on commercials and stuff. And I remember there was a local commercial in New York for Hess oil, where around Christmas, they would put out these toy Hess trucks. Yes, they're very cool. Those Hess trucks. Okay, okay. So this is a thing. Okay, so I didn't grow up with this. And they wanted me to come in, I was with a group of kids and sing to the tune of my boyfriend's back.

The Hess truck's back and it's better than ever. Let's go. The Hess truck's back and you're gonna be in trouble. Well, it's better than ever. If you were listening, you would know that the lyrics had been changed. I'm so sorry. So unfortunately, we are going to have to let you go at this time. Oh, wait, but okay. We're going to call you back in. Okay. But so, you know, we're singing this song and one of the casting directors was like, let's just try that again. And Anna, could you just look a little happier? And I do remember thinking, even as an 11 year old, like, why the fuck?

would I be happy about a Hess truck? I'm a child. What in the corny bullshit is this? So they stopped sending me out for commercials because I did not have the temperament. And also, more importantly, they really just sent me out for Broadway shows or national tours, like musicals, really, because I was really small and I had a big voice. And one of my parents would have to drive me to New York City six hours for 15 minutes, maybe in a room and

Pretty quickly, they were like, this is not sustainable. We both work full time and this is a cute dream for you and all, but we're going to have to figure something else out if this is something you want to pursue. And this is before self-taping. Like now, maybe those barriers wouldn't even be there. Probably not. And it was kind of important to pretend that you were from New York, that you were a local hire. Local hire. So...

My parents sent me and my brother, who was a year and a half older than me, on Greyhound buses to New York City. Oh, wow. Because he was an actor. Yeah, he was acting at the time, but it was more of he would chaperone me. So I'm 12 and he's 13 or 14. Sure. And always the more responsible of the two of us, to be clear. Then I auditioned for...

this show that I ended up getting, High Society, and I do my song and read the sides. And they asked me, oh, can you just come back in tomorrow? So great news. I got a call back. But where do I stay? What do I do? So, of course, I'd been told just say yes in the room. Right. So I was like, absolutely. I will see you tomorrow. Because I live right here. Going to go sleep.

in my bed just a block away. And my brother and I tried to find the cheapest looking hotel we could. My parents called the hotel and like faxed a credit card. Wow. Did a whole like, yes, our children will be checking in before us, but we'll be along shortly because of course we're not letting a 12 year old and a maybe 14 year old. Yeah, because even if you got on the Greyhound, by the second you got home, you'd have to turn around. I absolutely had to just do this. And I like washed my underwear in the sink in the hotel room. You were mature. You knew to do that.

But luckily, there's this kind of conventional wisdom that you're supposed to wear to your callback, whatever you wore to your audition. So that didn't look strange to anyone. Although eventually, well, coming back to the beginning of our conversation, they were like, do you have anything nicer? Because I was supposed to I was auditioning for like a little rich girl. And

And I was dressed like this, but perhaps even more holes in the cardigan. And I was wearing combat boots. And I remember them asking me, if you have anything just a little more like your Sunday best, whatever you'd wear to church. And at this point, my brother and I are down to like our last $30 or something. So we go to Payless. And my big solution for how to dress nice

sir, because this, what I thought was nice was to swap out my combat boots for just the cheapest pair of like white strappy church sandals that Payless offered. Rolled back in in the same ripped jeans and ratty cardigan. But with white shoes. Yeah. And tiny little church shoes that made no sense with the outfit. But they hired me anyway, so thank goodness for that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

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Were you too nervous about the impending audition? Or did you guys have fun in New York City in a hotel? We felt like it was a real adventure. And we were told by our parents to not leave the hotel room except for the audition. And we went and we got brunch somewhere. Like a couple of rebels. Scandalous. In Greenwich Village. Fun. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't even know what reputations different New York areas have these days, but at the time that was the cool place with head shops and stuff. Yes. We thought we were so punk rock. Yes. Were they Doc Martens?

they were Doc Martens, they probably would have been a pay less version of Doc Martens. That's where most of the shoes came from. And then you went back in there and then despite this terrible outfit, you got it. Yeah. How do you then live there in New York? So at the time, my dad was a substitute teacher. So that meant that he could just take some time. And so we found an apartment in Yonkers because that was the only place we could afford.

And I actually remember there's a moment that at the time I remember really being upset about and looking back makes me really happy, makes me feel like kind of warm and fuzzy, which is basically we're living in Yonkers because my dad and I are surviving on everything.

a Broadway Actors' Equity Union minimum. Which is, can we say, ish? I mean, especially at that time, I'm not totally sure. $1,100, $1,300? Something like that. Yeah, somewhere insufficient to live in New York City. At one point, I could kind of

tell that there was something rumbling in the background about this not really working. And we were in rehearsals and we were starting to do previews for the show. Your performance wasn't working or the show wasn't working? The situation with money. Oh, I got you. Got you. Got you. And I remember walking down this long corridor towards set once with my dad and this producer, I think his name was David, goes, hey, Will, how's it going? And my dad went, not good, David. Oh,

And I'm like panicked, panicked, panicked. And my dad basically says, look, when my daughter is 18, she can decide to be a starving artist. That's fine. That's her decision. But she's a child right now. And I won't let that happen. That's unacceptable. And of course, I'm there going, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. I don't have to eat. I'm 12 years old and I want to be on Broadway. I'm from

Like, no, you're ruining it. And basically the producers worked out a little per diem, which just meant that at the end of every week, things lined up. We were not making money, but we weren't going into debt. A little living stipend. And so we could at least afford rent and food, which is all he was really asking for. But it was a really fascinating moment. And to your point, it is sort of like, oh, that's where I get that from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I can be a real people pleaser fawner sometimes. Yeah.

But then there are times where I'm like, oh, I really talk crazy to people. Right. Wow. You can get nice and assertive. Yeah. Where you're almost like, I can't believe that just came out of my face. Earmark this. This is all baked in deeply with Woman of the Hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can sense there's a ton of history within this thing. But what is dad doing all day?

Is he resenting you or is he having a fun experience? I think he's having a fun experience. He is one of those people who's sort of endlessly curious. So when the show was happening, I think he would like see other shows. Also, he was tutoring me during the day. But mostly it was like, we're in New York City. Let's go to the UN. Let's go to a museum. So we were taking advantage of every free thing that New York City had to offer.

Is it one of the sweeter memories of you and your dad? Yeah. That's also a time when my dad really got me into interesting movies because we would go to the blockbuster and I would want to get Spice World. Sure. And he was like, we can totally get Spice World, but hey, let's also get something else. So we would watch Spice World and then we would watch The African Queen. And I would go like, oh, that was amazing. Like it was constantly a movie that I was like, damn.

Is that Bogart, the African queen? Yes. And Catherine Hepburn. But those were the movies that I would end up wanting to watch over and over. Yeah, that's fun. And did you love the experience of being in the show? Oh, yeah. Also, I've just been so desperate since I was a kid to just be a grown up. Getting to be the only kid in the cast, there was something really kind of awesome to me about that. And there were all these other kids on Broadway at the time.

They were doing a revival of The Sound of Music. So I kind of got to know some of The Sound of Music kids. And Ragtime at least had a little girl and a little boy in it. And so I got to know them a little bit. But I was like, I think I got the best deal here because I'm surrounded by grownups. Right. And they were like so cool and nurturing and sweet. And again, we're like, you should see this movie. You should read this book. It felt like, oh, they see potential in me enough that they're bothering to recommend interesting things to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I thought, and that was by the way, in the two year ago preparation, I very much was thinking of Mae Whitman the whole time as I was reading your story. You love Mae, yeah? I love Mae. She's number one girl in the world. Oh yeah. Maybe I should check with Mae if it's okay that I say this, but the night that I met Mae,

We were both teenagers. I'll say that. First time on mushrooms? I think it was her first time being drunk. And she was puking and I was holding her hair back and rubbing her. Anytime I run into her to this day, she's like, I'll never forget it.

I'll never forget it. But I feel like I should just check if it's fine that I say that. I can answer for her for sure. The things she and I have talked about on here and continue to. She's so great. But I was so curious about her because we met on the rehearsal for Parenthood and she's playing 15.

And I just hear her talk. I'm like, this 15 year old is insanely smart. Well, it turns out she was 22, but that's neither here nor there. And what I quickly discovered was this is interesting. She's the best actor out of all of us here. And there are people here with 30, 40 year careers that are phenomenal, taking nothing away from them.

And then I was like, how is this happening? Oh, she's been acting longer than most of us here. That's interesting. And then watching her have to navigate this tedious fucking thing where everyone in the crew is treating her like she was young, but she had more wisdom and more skill than everyone else. I just ended up being so it would have driven me nuts if I were her.

And I guess I'm wondering if you relate to that at all. Yeah, it's funny. I don't know if this is really what you're asking, but it just occurred to me. I remember when Up in the Air came out and it was the first time I was really doing press in a big way. And I remember thinking, I feel like I need to let people know that I'm 24 because I just felt like, God, they're talking to me like I'm a child. It was so weird. I will say I would then move two reporters down or whatever. And I'd hear the previous reporter talking.

to Helen Mirren that exact same way and go like, oh, okay, there's just something really infantilizing about the way that certain journalists talk to you, I guess. But it made me insane. So it was kind of a relief to go like, okay, that's at least happening to everyone. But I think I might be kind of naturally doing whatever it is that may, aversion maybe.

And I guess I've been doing it since I was in elementary school. It's like just trying to seem so mature, so smart. What's that about? Well, because when you're in third grade and everyone thinks you're in first grade. Oh, you were super tiny. There is nothing more humiliating. That is the divider between cool and a loser is you look like a baby. Yeah, baby. So from birth, I'm basically going like, oh, I have to try to prove with my speech or whatever that I'm cool.

older. It did get to the point where people would be like, I'm confused. Are you in first grade or are you in middle school? And you just look like that. It was a compensatory thing to try to make up for the fact that I felt like everybody thought I was so much younger than I was, which most of your growing up, you're like, this is a nightmare. The high school in my town was right next to the elementary school. So the big dig when I got to high school was like,

You're in the wrong building, babe. So what are we talking about? Like, were you four foot something in ninth grade? Eighth grade was the first time that I fit into the smallest size at an adult store. Nobody had the clothes that I had. And maybe even then I was doing a lot of like, it's vintage clothes.

But it was because it was from the Limited 2, which was a store for children. The Limited was for women and juniors. And the Limited 2 was for babies. Yeah, for little babies. Yeah, for little babies. Little tiny, useless, worthless babies. Yeah.

Those were hard to get clothes, though. They were the ones to have when you were in middle school. Yes. But I think like as you got closer and closer to high school. So by eighth grade, wearing the limited to was you're a baby. Money. Do you have this stuff? I was just thinking that because, you know, you're a baby. I'm a tiny baby as well. Baby club. I don't have.

have this, which is really odd. Well, maybe though. So I had bigger fish to fry. What were your, I mean, yeah, I had raised. Yeah. I'm like, what were your, oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. The being small, I didn't have time to deal with that. You were too focused on. I'm trying to blend it in the other way. But what's also possible is you could have been this size since you were 12. It's one thing if you ended up, no, you were, I was really, you were a few deviations below. I was very, very small.

But I remember listening to an episode when I was doing the edit for Woman of the Hour and you were talking about learning to ride your bike in your garage. Yeah. I could have burst into tears. I felt so seen because I was like, that is such an Anna fucking move to be like, oh, what I'm not going to do is let anybody see the learning curve. That's right. What I'm not going to do is let anybody see me until I'm in a place of mastery. Yes.

And that feels like at least a cousin to the thing I'm talking about. Baby syndrome. Where it's like, I'm going to get really, really good at something before I let anybody even know that I'm doing it at all. 100% true. That's right. And it was so weird.

weird to be listening to that specific nugget when I was in the edit because I was like, I am loving the edit. And I realized I might love it in a way that's a real reflection of my own shit. The idea of going into a dark room with just one other person. So it sort of feels like I'm by myself for 12 hours a day and just chipping away at all the little flaws. And I'm not going to come out of the dark until it's perfect.

Yeah. I'm going to just get rid of anything that anyone could have an issue with and I'll be perfect. And then and only then will I come out. It was just such a weird. I was like, I'm in the garage learning how to ride the bike. Yes. Which is, by the way, of course, not disclaimer, of course, not to say that the movie does not have flaws. It's all I see now when I watch the movie, as I'm sure you can relate to. Yes. But at any rate, I was like, I'm Monica trying to relax.

ride my bike in this garage right now. And one day I'll open the garage door up. Yep, yep, yep. But not until... No, no, no. Not a moment sooner. And I have that even with our edits. It's a similar thing. Oh, really? Where it's just so meticulous. And do you kind of love it? I hate it, but I do. Well, I'm sorry. Before you said hate it, you had a real gleam in your eye

your eye, ma'am. Almost mustache twirling. I hate it, but I could never not do it. I cannot really hand it. And sometimes I'll go back and I'll listen to a section and I'm like, I think it went out without my edit. This is a mess. This sounds horrible. And of course, that's not true. No, it's like one of the cleanest podcasts I listen to. But it's what you said. Doesn't matter what you've done. You still see the mistakes and the flaws. Monica and I just had dinner with

Adam Grant a couple of weeks ago. And we trust him very much so. And he was giving gentle nudging advice to Monica to make her workload easier. And like she was all open ears. And then at some point he suggested that someone could maybe edit and delegate the line in the sand was so funny to watch. She's like, look at the eyes like, no, yeah, that's never fucking happened.

happen. Also, you opened this conversation with the compliment to my edit. So there is no going back. This is the way it goes. So before you got on Broadway, I've heard you say now in a few interviews that you're kind of embarrassed about your actual knowledge of music. Does that mean you didn't

train and you just sang that way and got yourself on Broadway? Or how did you receive any instruction? I was in some choirs growing up, which got me laid a ton. And I had an hour lesson every week with a local vocal coach in Maine who I loved very much. But I don't know any music theory. It wasn't super technical.

Can you read music? I can use it as a guide. There was a period where I worked on it and I could slowly sight sing, but it was very precarious. Walking a real tightrope and was not something I was like, yeah, this is getting fun. It was stressful and difficult. And also, I think it's probably a skill that I would have worked harder on if music were a bigger part of my career. And it does just feel like I'm getting old.

And so it is just this skill deficit that I feel embarrassed about every two years or something where it comes up.

Well, I've noticed it's very hard for you to receive praise about your singing. What? The platinum song is very hard for you to accept. You seem to be embarrassed that you would have been on the charts. Okay, here's the closest I'll get to confidence in this area at all. I think for an actress, I sing very well. And even throwing the very on was difficult just now. But then I'm in a room with musicians or singers. The

The levels of artistry that exists, you kind of approach true greatness and you're like, oh, that's so embarrassing for me. It

It's a very deceptive form. Yeah, it feels like maybe being like a star runner in high school and then for some reason you end up around Olympians. You're like, wow, I can't believe I thought I was good at this. It's not for some reason, though. That's the mistake. You're like, I don't know how it happened that I ended up around these Olympians. It's because you're so good that you're amongst those people. You have so many.

Such a good voice. It's crazy. I can feel my brain desperately clawing for a joke. Oh, my God. I know why you feel the way you feel, because you can end up in a circle where people run. You have a lot more training and expertise. That happens on sets, though, as well as an actor. But that's never bothered me.

I'll be in a scene with someone who went to Juilliard and that's fine. There's a lot of ways to skin this cat. Yeah, that's interesting. I think I used to be really intimidated and embarrassed by my own kind of lack of formal acting training. And then just over time, I really did just go, oh, OK, you went to NYU or you went to Juilliard or something. That's awesome. Well, I

Well, I will say, actually, on Into the Woods, this was the strangest thing. I was the strongest musician on Into the Woods. And I say that as someone who has been expounding about my lack of musicianship for the last five minutes. People on that set would come up to me and be like, if they're telling me that they're going to change the key to my song, like, what does that mean? Yeah. And I remember going.

Okay, I don't know enough about music to explain in high technical detail what that means. But I do know that it would be like if we had blocked an entire scene with all this furniture, and then we moved all that furniture five feet to the left, you wouldn't then go sit on the floor because you were confused. Naturally, your body will adjust. And so don't worry about it. But

that kind of helped me on that set because I did feel incredibly intimidated by like the pedigree on that set. Oh, at least I'm bringing something to the table here. Even though then I would tell my musician friends I was the strongest musician on set and they would go, oh no. Oh,

Which I was like, I know. It's not like a thing where you can just be a little flattering. It's like a batting average. These things are just kind of concrete and black and white. So my musician friends were like, oh, God, you were the star of the music. Right. What are they going to do? But it felt like, oh, OK, I have like a purpose here. Yeah. But so anyway, I was working with someone else on a different project and their preference was that everyone kind of know their lines and stuff for like the week. Right.

So that at any given moment, we could be like, hey, can we just rehearse scene 50? We're doing it on Friday. I'm not sure that they requested it as much as they commented that that's the professional thing or something. And it was just someone whose work I really admired. And so I was like...

Okay, that's what I'm going to do. And I did it for the entire time that they were there and on set. And then when they left set, I did wonder, was that the kind of more disciplined thing to do? Was that adding value? Was I being lazy by being one of those people that something that this person said was like, you know, those actors that really get fully memorized in the makeup chair in the morning? And I was like, I

one of those actors. I thought, oh, okay, I don't want to seem like one of those actors. And when they left and I had more of the movie to do, I reverted back and I was like, yeah, no, this is just better for me. It was really interesting. I really wondered, am I going to find that there was added value in some way for me? And it was kind of

opposite. I really want to be just on that perfect line of being memorized. So I know it, but it's not stale because I think that's the thing that I am always more worried about. And this is a person who could really put my favorite quality in an actor of just discovery in something that they knew backwards and forwards. And for me, that's just a little bit harder. So my preference is to just be memorized right before it's time.

My sweet spot is a little bit of panic. I like to feel a little bit of chaos. I think I have it. I don't know if I have it. I got to really rise to the occasion and

That's my sweet spot. Interesting. I would say that in the last five years or something, I was on a set where it's hard to explain. I'm using this word. It sounds bigger than it is. I don't mean it like capital S, but I didn't feel super safe. It was just an emotional thing. I just didn't feel really at home and really safe and really comfortable. And I was doing a scene where I was finding it tough to cry. And that has never been...

Monica. What did you say, Monica? You rascal. I'm just kidding. She's teasing me that I cried so much on our episode. So we know that's not hard for you. But on set, it isn't hard for me. And I think that it was certainly a muscle I developed.

developed. I would say in the first five years of acting on film, it was not a guarantee. I was always a little nervous, like, oh, I have to cry on cue. But then I just got really confident. I knew it wasn't going to be a problem. Great. To the point that sometimes in conversations with friends, I would say something like, you know that thing when you're talking and you're sorry, sorry. And you know that thing? And they would be like, what?

That was really fucking creepy, uncanny valley. I didn't like that. And I'd have to be like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because I'm so used to just talking about, you know, that thing. And then there's that moment and I just do it. And they're like, I really panicked for a second that like something was wrong. And so then there was a set I was on where I couldn't really cry. I mean, I kind of got there, but then by take four, I was really there. So for me, I,

If I was in a low key panic, I think that would be difficult. It's actually the fact that I feel comfortable and I know that I've ridden my bike in the garage enough times that I know that I know how to ride my bike. But because there was just something a little funky on this particular set, I was like, this is the weirdest feeling to just go, oh, that muscle just isn't showing up for me. I'm falling off my bike.

Like, what is happening? So I don't relate to the panic thing. I think it's 100% childhood. I love chaos. That's very arousing to me. And so if I can get just a hint of that in a scene, and I think it's just all childhood. And then the other fun thing, you haven't done a TV show for like years and years. What I found fascinating about that is, so for Parenthood, there was, I think, 14 cast members. And you're in the makeup trailer. And we have a new director every other episode. Yeah.

And you're hearing people talk about how they hate or love this director. I was like, oh, yeah, there's no consistency. It's just your childhood. There's no right way to direct people. There's no right way to enjoy performing. It's a great metaphor for life in general, which is like there's no right way. There's the one that works for you. And I'd just be shocked listening to an actor say like,

they love this director. I'm like, I hate this director. This director is so controlling. But if they had a parent that they really loved and could trust and count on, they like that kind of direction and they feel safe with that. It's interesting because as we're talking about this, I'm going, Anna,

that's not entirely true because I have been aware for years, but especially when I was directing that when things are kind of behind and there's a real crunch and there's a panic, I'm like, oh, we're getting the shot. Oh, baby, if you think that we're not making our day and we're not getting every fucking shot we need. Oh,

you got another thing coming and I get real crazy eyes. Yeah. And even as an actor, I have been accused in the past of gunning for the first AD job, which is like the stage manager of the film set. I want to be the person driving the train and going like, we need to put more coal on the fire. Let's go. And so there was a day where everything went wrong on set. And,

you know, everything goes wrong every day. But really, everything went wrong. I turned to my cinematographer and I was like, I'm aware that I probably look pretty freaky right now. And I'm probably acting like a lunatic. And it probably looks like I just did an eight ball, but I've never done cocaine. Wow, you just made the nail gel I was going to make. I was going to tell you, you don't ever need to microdose cocaine because that is the feeling. I have known from the time I was a teenager something about that drug. I was like, I don't need that in my life.

The times in my life where I've been adrenalized and confident are the ones that really keep me up at night. So the last thing I need is to foster that. Adrenaline and confident. That's right. There is something really exciting about my backs against the wall. Watch me fucking make this happen. I love it. But.

it wouldn't be conducive to me dropping into softness and crying, I guess. So it's interesting because it does bring out a side of me that I really enjoy. But it's just fascinating. Do you like to prove yourself? Yeah, it's probably wanting to overcome something. I mean, honestly, I haven't really talked about this in press just because it's nuanced and there's not a lot

of room for that. But I pitched myself to direct this movie with six weeks to go before I was in Canada doing hard prep. You were attached to the movie for two years. You finally got financing. By the time you got financing, the previous director had fallen out and then it was a scramble to get a director. Yes. I pitched myself and then we had six weeks of

prep, which even that is a pretty short prep. And then we had 24 days to make the movie. And I think there was something about that that felt like, number one, sure, I like a challenge. And that's a nice thing to say about yourself. So that's not not in there somewhere. And two, I knew that if there was something that was six months away, I would have panicked and backed out and been like, we should find someone who's more experienced. This is a mistake. And I didn't have time to panic. I just had to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

But also, there was something about making a movie in terrible circumstances that gave me a little bit of emotional cushion if it was a complete disaster. Exactly. If I pull it off, I'm going to feel so amazing about it.

But because if I walk into something where I've known I was going to do it for six months or a year and it's like a really cushy schedule and we have all the right resources. If you're Tarantino and you have 130 days, it better be fucking perfect. It's only you to blame. Yes. But this kind of sprawling period piece, epic thriller, it has to feel really controlled. And you want to make it look big and expensive in spite of the resources you have, because we are very happy to have found a home at Netflix, but we did not make this movie with Netflix.

This was very, very, very much an indie film. We were on our own. That's it. As frustrating as that was, there were many days that I cried in my car. But I think there was something about it that made me like, well, if it's a disaster, I'll be able to emotionally survive that because I'll be able to tell myself, well, it's because you had 24 days. Yeah, you're not built in. Because you're trying to do this huge thing. Yeah.

really trying to pull off something really ambitious and I'm so glad that people think it's a big expensive movie but then I'm like I would like you to know that it was not a big expensive movie. Wow that's incredible. So it's like complicated because I don't want it to look cheap but also oh my god. I did something. There's like a lot of

Yeah. Yeah.

wow, as a director, I was like, oh my God, at least once a day, someone is saving my ass and everybody else's ass. And I was so happy to have two guys who were really emotionally invested. Some of the days spent chatting about really emotional, personal stuff. And it's amazing the way that then it kind of shows up in the next decision you make. Okay. Wait, may I use the... Yes, we have a door now. We didn't have a door then.

I have the bladder the size of a peanut. You do have to move a chair. Is that a Missoni sweater? It is.

Are you impressed? Salvage. Are you impressed? I am impressed. It's hard. You got to remind yourself what it's like to not know a lot about fashion. I know. It is very impressive. You got to snap into like. It's like if I saw a car thing. That's right. But if you called out, you know, a 60s Ferrari by name. Wow. I would high five you. Okay. So how old is that garment? That's a great question. You've asked that a couple times about some vintage items. I want to know. Yeah, because like in cars, it's really important what year it is. Oh, no.

Is that a 1978 Missoni? Yeah.

I want to give Joy Bryant credit. I only know about Missoni because they were selling it at Target and she was so excited. And she kind of explained everything to me. That was such a big day. Yeah. When they did a collab. We were doing Parenthood when that happened. Did she have to leave set? She was counting down the days like, yeah, like I thought the Pope was going to visit set or something. So then somehow I really picked up on what the signature proprietary design is. Yeah. Was it itchy or is it nice? It's a tiny bit itchy. Earmark for a fact check. I am making cashmere now.

Excuse me? Yes, I have it. I'm going to make you feel it.

I have a million tiny little hairs on my back. I've been noticing it in the new gym. I can see it in my reflection and I hate them. So then I was complaining about them and Lincoln said, do you want me to shave your back? And I said, I would love that. And Lincoln shaved my entire back. Oh my God. I was sitting on the edge of the bathtub and this little tiny pile of hair was done afterwards. And I picked it up to throw it in the trash and I went, oh my God, that's the softest hair I've ever felt in my life. I had the girls feel it and we all agreed that's cashmere. So-

I am now collecting it. What did I just say? And one day I hope to produce a casual. You're going to make a sweater. Like Brad Pitt's got God's true. This is up step above. What if his is his back hair and we didn't know this whole time? Then it's underpriced. I thought it was overpriced. It's underpriced.

- You missed a lot. - I leave you alone for two seconds. - I'm making cashmere now off my own back. - I gathered that much. - I kind of want to go and thank the little- - I was hoping it was a metaphor. - Stuffed up hair. - Unfortunately not. How much do you have? - It's only about the size of that.

Is it just a pile of hair currently? It's a tiny little... And I kept it in a certain spot so I can grow it and then get it spun into wool. You might have to start with the sock. My mom does crafting. She does this thing called felting, where she makes little like woodland creatures out of special felt. And that seems like it might be a good candidate for a little squirrel or something. Connect us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She'll love it. What she could do is I think cashmere does not come from a goat's chin or something like that. It comes from a region and an animal.

Yeah, like in Nepal or something. And then there's a goat chin hair. Is it goat chin hair, Rob? It's goats, yeah. So your mother should make a goat that the cashmere comes from, but make it in my back hair. Meta. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay.

Most people will have seen Woman of the Hour. It's number one on Netflix. Congratulations. Thank you. It's nice to be talking about the movie now that it's out. It's way better. Because I do feel like, okay, I don't have to be so precious about like spoilers and stuff. Also, Kristen and Brody did the show right before their show. But I'm like, that would have been so much more fun two weeks after when it was this cultural phenomenon. So the movie is a real story of...

of a serial killer what year was that so the movie spans from 1971 to 1979 and the movie although it is about a serial killer i think it's very much more about the experience of being a woman i mean and it's fucking just around every corner stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare

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Okay, so there's a couple of beats that come around more than once. And so you have this neighbor. He clearly has a crush on you. You're not dating. You guys go out. He then kind of makes his big move. It's Pete Holmes. He's great, by the way. It's funny. You counter-programmed. You took all these really sweet people and made them be mean. I know. Tony Hale. Yes. He's mean.

He's a pig. He had a great time. There were some times where I was like, Tony, we're going to just keep rolling on you or the camera might follow you this time. So if you want to just say whatever. And then we would cut and I would be like, Tony, how dare you? How very dare you? Wow. Oh, yeah. He's such a good boy. Yeah. But he's also like an amazing improviser. So he was not afraid to get specific.

Yeah. In casting Pete Holmes, I was really looking for the guy who in a very short window of time on screen, you could go, OK, we're introducing a man and it's her neighbor. And I'm hoping that you're a little surprised that it turns dark or sexual, that it could be that this guy is just in the movie to be kind of this coquettish,

Golden Retriever type. And then there's this turn where even Pete Holmes is someone who just can't really see himself as not entitled to my space and my body and my apartment. And there's a moment where it's like he's been so friendly, so friendly, so friendly. And then when it's obvious to him that you're not going to go out with him, he gets mad.

mean and angry. I know that moment was really interesting because he has not played a part like that ever. And so number one, I wasn't totally sure if it was going to come across. But yeah, there's that one moment where he's like, do you want to leave? That just makes me like, oh,

oh God, I hate it. It's so cold. He just goes like dead eyed. Well, it's scary. You're like, hold on a second. I was just talking to someone different. I thought everything was fine. How did we get here? But as an actor on set, there's lots of little things that I do that I keep in my back pocket and I don't tell anyone about. And I really prefer within reason, just not mention that I'm going to try like a little thing because sometimes I

I think it's almost like, oh, God, I hate that I'm about to say this, but it's what I imagine maintaining an erection would feel like, where you're just like, if I spell out everything that's about to happen, something about it will be false or the moment will disappear and get away from me and then I'll just be trying to get it back. And so there are things that I like keep to myself. And I found that bleeding into directing as well. And one of the things was I knew I wanted the killer in the opening scene to touch the

Sarah's hair, the actress's hair. And then I wanted Pete to touch my hair in this bar scene, but I didn't tell anybody about that. And we filmed the bar scene first. And so I was asking Pete to touch my hair and Pete, God bless him, was like, why on earth?

Why on earth would I just touch your hair? Like, I just reached out and touch your body. Who would do that? And I was like, lots of people. So it was very sweet. It like spoke well of him that he was so bewildered by the idea. He was like, am I drunk? Why would I just touch you? If I fall in, I'm steadying myself on your hair. No, literally. But I thought the moment works great. And then funny enough, later that day, we shot a scene where toward the end, the

Killer asks me for my phone number and he asked, can I try something in the next take? And I was like, sure. And while I'm writing my number down, he reached out and he tucked my hair behind my ear. And he didn't have any knowledge. No. And we kept walking and I called cut and I was like, did someone tell you that?

that earlier today I asked Pete to do exactly that and he was like, no, no. And I was like, well, just so you know, I was going to ask you to do it in the opening scene. And so he does it in the opening scene. But that moment is actually one of the creepier moments in the movie when he touches my hair. And it was so perfect that, of course,

Pete is, I think, still thinking of himself as playing a super sweet guy. So he was like, why would I just touch you? But the guy who's trying to be in the mind of someone who thinks of other people as just kind of play things is like, why wouldn't I just reach out and touch your hair? You belong to me. Yeah. Oh, wow. How much of it? So have you seen that switch?

You must have. Yeah. Even your relationship we discussed before aside. That's obviously the one that was most impactful. But yeah, it's certainly not the only time that I've had that experience. And really, the whole movie is kind of an exploration of how did we get here and how bad is this situation?

gonna get even when I was pitching myself I was like I know that this is not the kind of movie that I'm known for but this feels like familiar territory to me these scenes that are around violence really feel like scenes about shame to me and there's this question in the movie that

That I've experienced in my life, which is whose shame is this? And how much of your shame am I going to have to absorb to make sure that you don't really harm me? And the whole end sequence was very different before I signed on. There's this one detail from the real story that feels so important. Was that part of the real story? She spoke to him that way? Mm hmm.

Holy fuck. The way that we have to contort to survive is about, I need to be your mirror right now. And right now I need to show you that you have done nothing wrong and everything is great. It's like you have to latch on to whatever justification they've told themselves. Even the way she uses the word, it got wild. That's a very mitigating. This character at the end of the film decides to take on all of

his shame. And it's this really perverse agreement between the two of them. Hey, this is how we both walk out of here and feel okay and survive. And I think that there are a lot of people who would have thought to say, I forgive you and I'm not going to tell anyone. But to think, to say, please don't tell anyone and please forgive me is so genius.

And it's saying, hey, all that power that you need to feel, you get to feel it just by like doing something benevolent, which is, quote unquote, forgiving me. I mean, it's just, it just blows my mind. I'm not shocked that's a real detail from the real story because it's so specific. That's a hell of a scene. She's incredible. Okay. Can we just talk about Autumn for a second? Let's talk about Autumn. My baby. The cast in this movie is absolutely dazzling. And I...

I remember, especially when I was asking the screenwriter to add this sequence to the end of the movie, I told the casting director, I don't know where this girl is, but we're going to find her. And I'm telling you, when the lights come up on this movie, the first thing anybody is going to ask is, who the fuck is she? Yeah, yeah. It's exactly what's happening. And it makes me so happy. She just sent a tape from Chicago. It's her first movie. Wow. I...

was watching her. She's so good that I was like, she's been great in nine other things. And I just am now connecting the dots. It was that feeling. Yeah. The killer is fucking awesome. Yeah. Thankless role. Well, no, really, because he is extraordinary in every scene. And yet I'm very grateful to him because he had to know that he's not really the focus of any scene. But that doesn't mean he can show up and phone it in because then the scene is ruined. He

He is doing amazing things in the film. And you might think that this story would only be relatable to women, but I'm very much watching it and I have seen the transition hundreds of times. Really? Oh my God, yeah.

It can be sexual in nature or it can just be you've threatened my status and I'm going to control you now. Like I've seen the eyes change in a million men, in stepdads and in older boys. And I've seen like, oh, fuck, we're in a real zone now. It's about to get unpredictable. And who knows, this dude's embarrassed and threatened. And now we're off to the races like anything's possible. And would you say that historically your go to growing up was always fight?

No, I was terrified at times. I remember me and Aaron were just hanging out at his house at 12 years old. And this fucking dude rolled up in like an old muscle car and he got out and he wanted to know if we had seen, I don't know what the fuck he wanted.

I didn't give the right answer. And I was noticing his mouth was like covered in white. I could smell his breath. It was like fishy. And out of nowhere, this like full grown adult grabs me and slams my head against his telephone pole. And now I'm like, we were just existing. And now I'm in this dude's story. And it's a crazy person. I don't know them. He's assaulting me. Where is this going? And was the strategy then just flee? Yeah.

In an ideal world, it's flattery. No, dude, I'd never fuck with you. You're a fucking badass. If it's a stepdad, I was just writing about this. There's a game we play, downplay what just happened, and we blame it on another thing. And we really hunker down on that other plausible explanation to get him out of the shame. Because if shame takes off, now we're really in trouble. So I don't think anyone's excluded from that.

And it's very, very visceral and familiar. I got to an age and a size where any dude that rolls up to put my head into a telephone pole, they're going to have their hands full. I got to escape it to some degree. And yeah, if you're five feet tall and 112 pounds, that option is not going to be on the table for you. If I couldn't have outgrown that, that would have been so paralyzing to me because I hated that. I experienced that a lot and it killed me in myself personally.

that flagellation of not being able to stand up to those people or find my voice or say the truth, that hurt way more than any of the interactions did. Oh, it is really hard because I feel like in the last few years, there's been more of a kind of exploration of the fawn response and how that's not a viable, healthy thing anymore.

And it is complicated, though, because sometimes my friends will talk to me about how that's something that they're working on. And they'll be talking about a situation they were in where they reverted to doing stuff like that. And they're beating themselves up about it. And I'm also then going, but you were just trying to keep yourself safe. It's a survival. Yeah. With.

you're really safe people. That's not something you want to just fall into out of instinct and habit. But in the situation you're describing, it feels like that was not a super safe situation, even if it wasn't in a dark parking lot with a man. Well, the second someone shows you a side of themselves that you couldn't have predicted, now you have to acknowledge that

your abilities to predict what's going to happen, they're useless. You just found out that you didn't know this person. And now everything's on the table. The sky's the limit at that point, because you know, you no longer have any sense of what this person is. Yeah. In the movie, my character, I remember thinking that it felt like particularly in the first act that the question in each scene for her is like, do you see me as human or do you see me as something else? And

And by the end of the movie, she has an answer. And it's not a great answer, but it's at least resolution. There's something about knowing that feels a little bit better.

I grew up watching the dating game. And for people who don't know your character, the woman in real life went on the dating game and the killer was one of the bachelors, which seems insane. That person would have gone on television. Obviously, it's telling of how unthreatened he felt by law enforcement or the world. Yeah, the culture was very much not set up to protect the victims. So he was very confident.

Yeah, and for years, people had been saying stuff and nothing ever came to fruition. Was it a spree? As far as what we know, and this is really about what has been recorded, and there's probably significantly more, but from what we know, he operated for over a decade. And they know about seven, and there's some people that think as much as 130, which seems like a hell of a delta. Yes. Rape and murder. It's also the ones that we know about.

are mostly girls who came from families that were looking for them. So one imagines that particularly in the 1970s, although unfortunately still today, sex workers, men who were perceived to be gay men, those would be people that it would have been a lot easier. This is speculation and we don't know and we can't know. Seven's enough to hit the threshold for me.

Okay, so having this huge dissonance between having been alive during a lot of this and having seen nothing wrong with it. It's not like I was a little kid watching the dating game and the guests would come out and all they talk about is how pretty she is and all that. None of that.

obviously was seeming weird to me at all. It was like, here's life. Here's what a game show is. This is what happens on a game show. And when you look back on it, it's so nuts. It's really nuts. But it's also funny how poor the comedy was. There was a point where we were debating using some of the real dialogue from the real episode. And I will also say the real episode pieces of it are available online. But this

The episode in its entirety appears to have been lost to time. So we're kind of imagining what happened in that lost footage. Did the contestant write her own questions and rebel against the show? Probably not. But it was the most interesting thing we could do with that part of the movie. Even the piece of the movie that's a little bit more like an episode of The Dating Game, we had to write stuff that was a little better because if we had just kept the dialogue as it was, it would have been like, is there supposed to be a gas leak?

in the audience? Like, why are they laughing at this? Like one of the things in the real episode, she says, Bachelor number one, like what's your best time? And he goes, my best time is night. And the audience is just, ah, they're just eating it up without all the context of it actually being the 70s. It would not make sense in this movie. Sexual innuendo was a hit.

It didn't really matter how good it was. Oh my gosh, I can't believe we're saying that on TV. Yeah, exactly. Because he's saying night and that means he's talking about sex. And oh my God. Or Whoopi, that whole show where they constantly talked about where's the craziest place you've made Whoopi. Have you ever seen that clip? I doubt it. He asks the wife, what's the craziest place you and your husband have made Whoopi? And she goes,

In the butt? Oh, God. Oh, wait. No, no, no. Yeah, no, no, no. I was like, it sounds... Yep, yep, yep, yep. So watching it now, forgive me for this. I'd like debated whether or not I want to ask this question or not. It's probably wrong, but you can correct me and I'll learn a lesson. It's so stark and bad. Like, it's so crazy that that's how talk show hosts were talking to young women, right?

Is it possible the women that were experiencing it, they too were in the water and it wasn't as painful as it feels like when I'm watching it? Because it's just fucking absurd. This is really interesting. So number one, there is actually one line that is lifted from the real Cheryl Bradshaw episode of The Dating Game where the host says, she used to work massaging feet, but quit when her boss asked her to work her way up. Oh.

I mean, this is a daytime. In the movie, I kind of bristle at that. And if you watch the episode, she's got a smile plastered on her face the whole time. I obviously can't speak to how she felt about it. I don't know. But there was something that I read about one of the victims. We ended up

up putting something about it in the movie. This character, Charlie, played by Catherine Gallagher, she sort of mentioned something about being a flight attendant and how customers will kind of try to grab her ass when she's putting things in the overhead bin. But that was based on something I had read where the person who was actually a flight attendant would talk about that as though it was very charming and adorable. Again, unless you're in the 1970s,

If I have her do that, it's going to seem like I'm signaling she's an idiot. So the only way for me to have her say it is to have her be a little annoyed by it. That's the interesting thing about now period pieces. When you approach them in modern day, you are doing this weird tightrope walk. But it is interesting because you go, well, I'm sure that they thought they felt fine about it.

Because it's really hard when you're like, okay, so the only thing I can do is be a consumable object. But the alternative is I'm nothing. I'm worthless. So, hey, I'm going to enjoy being consumed. So, of course, you end up telling yourself...

that being objectified is great. That's great news for me. And I even remember watching a kind of fact versus fiction thing about the show Chernobyl. In it, they're talking about how, particularly in the first episode, there's a number of points where different Russians go, I'm not sure that we should do that. They're kind of pushing back against a direct order. And the person who was fact-checking it was like,

I think that this totally makes sense as a way to dramatize the culture at that time. But in reality, they would have just done it. Yeah, exactly. But you can't just have them do it because then you just go, oh, so everyone in the country at that time was an idiot. You have to kind of have them externalize their own worries in a way that they wouldn't have had they been receiving a direct order. But what I could tell, and I could tell by the fact that you're telling this story and your performance in it, all those details have changed.

But there's a very alive aspect. Yeah, and there's something where obviously it's a period piece and that meant that there were places where playing up the 70s of it all was really fun. But my nightmare would be that anybody saw the movie and walked away with the idea that, oh man, the 70s were a tough time for women. Good thing that's all in the past now. So there were things where I was like, I kind of want it to feel timeless and I don't want to super lean into...

how 70s we could get. In the first scene where we meet my character, I'm having like a horrible audition. And the guys that were playing the casting directors were so great and so funny. I asked them to do this thing verbatim that had happened to me when I was 19. Oh, wow. So they ask me if I'm willing to do nudity. And I say, oh, no, it's just not for me. And they point at my chest and go, oh, I'm sure they're fine. That happened? Yes. Oh, oh, my God. And, you know,

And, you know, when I was 19 wasn't yesterday, but it certainly wasn't the 1970s. Yeah. So there's stuff in the movie that is from my experience that unfortunately was very recent. So let me ask you, I think it's interesting to make your first directorial effort be a genre thing and especially a thriller genre.

Oh, man.

Oh, man. It's so funny you ask that. You've gotten that question a thousand times. No, no, not at all. I sent this script to a filmmaker friend of mine when I was debating pitching myself to direct it. Mostly as, do you think that this is a nightmare? Here's the budget. Here's the timeline. Here's the script. Do you think I'm setting myself up to fail? And he talked to me about all that stuff. But he was like...

I gotta say, I'm surprised that this is the thing. I've been wondering and hoping if you would direct and this

this is not what I was expecting. And he said, you know, once you're deeper into the movie, I can see some themes that would appeal to you about being a woman in the world. But like, especially that opening scene, explain me basically, right? Help me out. The opening scene was a little different at the time, but it was more or less the same. And I had to think about it because this is a person who's known me for like 20 years. And I was like, well, that should give me pause, right? If he's really gently asking me like, why this? And obviously,

Obviously, I agree that all the stuff about being a woman and the kind of peril, large and small, that you find yourself in is appealing. But even that opening scene, I get it. It's a pretty shocking act of violence. It's an upsetting scene, right?

But it doesn't feel like unfamiliar territory to me because not to be corny, but the idea of two people on an isolated hilltop and especially something about being photographed even in a moment of real vulnerability, it feels like

This is the bargain that we're always making when we engage in meaningful relationship. The risk of annihilation is what we put ourselves in in any moment of vulnerability. And obviously, this is a really extreme story and an extreme example. But that moment of going, how did I get here? A second ago, I was in the most beautiful place.

I really wanted to open the movie and close the movie in nature. And it felt like nature is this kind of perfect reflection of the duality of intimacy, the terror and the risk versus the warmth and the beauty and how like restorative and healing and magical something like the ocean can be and how dangerous the ocean can be. That moment where you go, oh, something has turned and his eyes have gone dark and

And I don't really know what's happening anymore. Or even when you're talking about, oh, this person has just exhibited a behavior that's not predictable. And now anything is possible. It's kind of similar to being on an isolated hilltop and going, wow, this is the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen. And then realizing, I

I think I might be lost. Yeah, I could die here. And I didn't have enough water for a lost version of the hike back. And you hear a coyote in the distance and you go, oh, I'm really not safe. And that feels like it's at the emotional crux of all that. So it's both, I guess. There's something about...

a kind of extreme genre example of that feeling that feels really real to me. I liked to, this wasn't explored and I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but when we talked last time on the show and I was saying what my own journey with coming to peace with being molested was, is owning my own culpability. That was a huge part of it for me and forgiving myself for my culpability. So for me personally,

And again, I'm projecting this onto your movie, but I was like, I like that. There's got to be also some moment of like, I want to be photographed. I'm flattered that this great photographer has interest in me. To me on the hilltop, I would be actively as much as I'd be afraid of that person. I would be right into the self abuse moment.

This is really tricky. That's my story. I want to be very clear. No one had any couple, but I was like, oh, I can feel being there. I've had a similar experience. There's,

stuff that has happened to me where a big part of me getting to resolution was in fact owning okay that piece was mine and there was something I wanted and that did get me in that situation and that frees me up to really place all the anger and shame that doesn't belong to me on the other person where it squarely fucking belongs so I I

totally get that thing. The whole scene becomes more moving and real to me because it's more complicated than I'm walking down the street. Someone jumped out of somewhere and attacked me. There's more to it. Even every woman in the movie has like a very different personality, which is intentional. And the way that she meets this man is

is different, which is intentional and how they interact is different because I know what you're saying. And this is always like a really tricky dance. It is because it sounds like victim shaming, but that's why I'm saying personally, no close to that line. You're there.

to pursue acting. And so you yourself have made some weird compromise to be on a show you don't want to be on because you know that's not really what you want to do. But also there's this promise of it could lead to the thing you do want to do. I just like that the reality of the layers are in there. Go ahead. That's the thing to overcome. If you're taking that on, that's for you to understand that's,

not related. This want is not related to that abuse. Agreed. So you can feel it, but that feeling should be corrected. Not, okay, so. Yeah, to me, just that's what makes it juicy is I can relate to the part where I'm playing a hot dog as a harmonica in an AM PM industrial commercial. Yeah.

Real life experience. Like, what are we doing here? But that doesn't mean then the director can sexually abuse you. No. Because you wanted this thing. They're separate. I understand feeling like they're combined, especially when you're prone to shame. But they are not. They are not. And you would hope to tell any victim that. But I'm just relating to the internal battle I've had.

Yeah. When I end up places and I find that to be part of a lot of people's experience. I think it's harder for you to live in a world where you didn't have a part in it. Where it was something that something bad happened to you and it wasn't because of anything you did or anything you wanted or you had zero control. It's more comforting to me probably because

If I can identify some role I played, I have control over me. I don't have control over the rest of the world. So if I can isolate some move I would make differently, I can not be in this situation, which is not true. Yeah, I couldn't be walking down the street and I could be not true. I recognize it.

I just know the internal battle of when I've been a victim. It's not as clean. I wish it were clean. Like, oh, yeah, I'm a victim. For me, it wasn't clean like that. I am both of you in this moment. It's really hard. And the most interesting thing is I'm aware that I'm thinking of one situation where there is something that is comforting to me about going, oh, that was my piece. It genuinely freed me up.

to go and the rest of it is not. And before I did, even if it's 2%, here's my 2%. And that means that the other 98 that I've been kind of wrestling with in the wrong way is all on you. And yet when I'm talking about other people, when I'm thinking of

the women in the movie, I go, they didn't do, I get really protective. And it runs the risk of sounding like victim shaming or that they ask, I cannot be clearer. That's not what I'm suggesting. Those women were a hundred percent victims. That guy's a fucking monster on planet earth. And that happened. But I also know what it's like to be with the monster. And I know it's very complicated for me. I wish it were that clean. I wish it were just like, yeah, bad guy.

the dude that pulls up and fucking piece of shit. I'm like, oh, we got to not walk or, you know, like I'm somehow making adjustments now going forward because I am scared. This person scared me and I'm trying to figure out how to not be scared ever again. I struggle with this because there's a lot of conventional wisdom that talks about owning your part. And I then get into things with my therapist where she's like, you're working really hard to make this your fault. And I don't

I don't know. I think I have a very hard time forgiving myself, but that needs to kind of happen first. I need to get past that little thing before I can even see the objective reality. It's just like, I have a motion in the pit of my stomach and it needs to be addressed and dealt with. Why am I feeling like that was my fault? Well, what part did I participate in? And so, yeah. And then my spidey senses said, get out of here. And I betrayed myself. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't have the courage. I didn't have whatever else.

And then I can go, right, that all happened. And it's okay. It's very normal to not have the courage. My little girl just came home and someone wrestled her to the ground and she felt powerless. And when she came home,

I just wanted to make it very clear to her. I know what it feels like to freeze. I know what it feels like to get scared and be overwhelmed. And that's not shameful. Yeah. We can blame this person later, but I want to deal with the thing I know I would be dealing with. Why couldn't I find my voice? Why couldn't I stand up? And I just want to say your huge daddy has not found his voice a bunch of times and has felt powerless. And I know it and it's okay.

There's nothing to feel ashamed of. That's very normal. And is this voice the exact same way you talk to like young Dax? No, just young Lincoln. Okay, well. Yeah. Yeah, I think people have different levels of

inherent shame. I think that's really what sort of it boils down to. Obviously, experience and trauma and all those things add to it. But I think there might be some like Lincoln is prone to a lot of shame. Genetically. It is seemingly genetic because there's no reason for it. There's no trauma. So there's different ways of handling people when they have more levels of that, I think. It's back to directing.

I'm only speaking for me. That's how you are able to get through. That's right. And somebody else might not need that. And some are like me. This, I think, is maybe the weirdest thing about my brain because I, for many years, obviously heard people talk about like self-talk. But I think there's something...

This is actually like the weirdest thing that I might say this whole episode. But I am never talking to myself. I'm like talking to an imaginary person in conversation and they're talking back to me. And sometimes it's like my therapist. Sometimes it's my mom. Sometimes it's my best friend. And I'm just in this kind of constant fake conversation in my head. Okay.

Occasionally, I'll have a real acute moment of going like, oh, Anna, you fucking dumbass or something. But I'm not talking to myself. I remember finding out from some episode of like This American Life or something that that's the most common experience and being like, oh, no, I'm like a freak. I'm like having a conversation in my head at all times. Is that?

the weirdest? I don't trust someone who's not. I think I'm like you. Yeah. I don't say to myself, you're bad. I have the feelings, but they almost feel like they're coming at me from somewhere else. Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder how many people talk to themselves versus ruminating in a different way. Because I've heard about people who then say that they don't have an internal monolith.

That I cannot understand. And that I don't understand. I feel like I saw that in a movie. And I'll see people post about like, what do you mean it's just like silence up there? So that's not what's happening. There's just a kind of endless conversation in the background. Same. What Monica and I are doing is we are in court cases. Yeah.

There's a trial. Oh, yeah. So I have a lot of talking to other people, but it's in a trial. There's Exhibit A and here comes Exhibit B. Yeah. Funny enough, that reminds me. I know you guys are going to be talking to my buddy, Matt Murphy. Yes. Yes. I know it's exciting. But yeah, there is definitely part of me that's like, oh, I should have been a lawyer. Oh, my God. Yeah. Especially when you see clips of lawyers being real sassy where I'm like, ooh.

I want to be in that courtroom so bad. I don't really know how Matt is so buttoned up, I guess, in life. So he was the prosecutor of the murderer's retrial in 2010. And he really was part of the team that connected the dots. You just answered the biggest mystery to me. Oh. I'm like, I'm going to interview this guy, Matt Murphy, who somehow was a prosecutor on this case himself.

Which was in the 70s. But how is he so young? And he's still alive. Yeah. And coming to the attic. Okay. So there was a retrial. Yes. That solves such a mystery in my head. Yes. Okay. So there was a retrial in 2010 and that was really when a lot of the DNA hits came

around. And so it was like, OK, we always thought there was maybe an M.O. here, but we really only got him for one. This is all in his book. I'm very happy to plug his book. I listened to the audio book and it was like seven of the best true crime podcasts I had ever listened to. It's so fabulous.

He really helped me on this movie because we did not have the money to pay him. So he was an incredible, incredible resource. But he's one of the guys that really was a hero in this story. And he introduced me to the person who is now the honorable Craig Robeson. But at the time he was dealing with the killer, he was Detective Craig Robeson. Wait, was he a judge? Yeah, now he's a judge. And we say honorable for that. Thank you. You just taught me that. Okay.

It's funny because these are two people who are really the heroes and particularly Craig Robeson. He was like 27 and he was the young detective who was finally taking this horrible situation seriously. And then Matt comes in and he's the prosecutor who like puts together all the pieces and some of the ways that they put together the pieces, looking at photographs and looking at the time that the shadow on that date would have been to prove he couldn't have been at

this other place by the time he said he was. I mean, fascinating stuff. And it's kind of like...

a ready-made Hollywood story. And the movie doesn't get into any of that. Even though that is a ready-made Hollywood story and it is all true, it would be really emotionally dishonest to be telling the story of these people who came in and did these incredible things and cared enough and put this guy behind bars and made sure that he stayed there because after over a decade of no one giving a shit, you

You go, well, we've got a 90 minute movie, so I don't think we're going to get into any of that because the feeling that I walk away from doing months of research about this case is that it's not going to be a good idea.

is really like rage and grief. And that is a very uplifting story. But there was certainly a focus more on emotional truth than just sticking to detailed factual accuracy. Yeah. And you made a very specific decision to not tell the story of the killer, but to tell the story of the victims, which is awesome. It's crazy impressive.

Great job. Fuck. First movie, that's outrageous. It's so good. Probably everyone's already seen it, but if you haven't, it's phenomenal. It's very, very, very well made. I would have swore it was $150 million budget. Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. I have a hard question. Are you proud of it? Oh, man, that is such a funny specific question because, of course, all I see when I watch it now is like, oh, damn, that cut is funky. It was the best way to cut it, but it's a little funky and it makes me crazy. And

And with the resources that we had, I am unbelievably proud of the movie and every single person that showed up. It was so passionate and amazing. And it just wouldn't be a movie if a single person in the cast or the crew wasn't unbelievable at their job. I owe everyone so much. Of course, I'm biased, but I think the only thing that matters at the end of the day is story and performance. And hey, let's try to make great production design, great costumes, great cinematography.

If we do all of that and the performances suck, we did it for nothing. And I think I drove the casting directors insane because every single part, I would be like, you guys, I know I've said this before, but whoever plays this part has to be amazing. There was not a single one line part that I was like, yeah, whatever.

I think I made everybody insane. But I think that's also the reason the movie works, if it works for anybody at all, is like because everybody showed up and they were so talented. Yeah. All right. Well, Anna, this was great again. And you're going to come back again. I know you're going to go, oh, we did it twice. So next time you're going to go, oh, we did it twice. How do they do people three times? No, no. Here's what's going to happen. We do people five times. Here's what's going to happen. I'm going to leave this and I'm going to go...

oh, it wasn't like super vulnerable and emotional. And so, oh, I let everybody down. Do the opposite of last time where I was like, oh my God, I just cried like a baby the entire time. How inappropriate. And now I'm gonna be like, I didn't cry. You can't win. That should be the title of someone's autobiography. You can't win. You can't be one. All right. Well, I adore you. And, you know, feel free to ghost me as much as you want. I understand. I'll try not to. All right. Adore you. Thank you.

He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gotta let him have the facts. Hello. Hi. I'm excited to be here today. We haven't recorded in a couple days. Uh-huh. Yeah, I missed you. I was out of town for a few days. We had like a five-day break. Yeah, Thursday or Tuesday? Is that five days? Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Yeah. Wow. It's like a full Thanksgiving. Sweet.

Speaking of which, I really have the tinglies about it being here. I'm excited too. Yeah. Are you excited about your secret turkey? No. I mean, receiving it or preparing one? Preparing one. No, I'm not.

You know, this is a big shortcoming of mine. I'm bad at gifts. I'm just bad. Like, I'll tell you, I think about it 30 minutes a day, which leads to depression. Yep. I spent 30 minutes thinking about this and I have nothing. And I'm going to do it tomorrow. Remember how great it is?

It's fantastic. It's a great thing. I'm not creative in this space. Sure. It's a shortcoming. To remind people if they don't know about secret turkey. Erica and Molly's daughter invented it, which is great. And she invented it like three years ago? I think so. So she was like 12 or 13. The first year we were all together and...

And she was like, everyone pick a name out of a hatch. And this is a very, what's the word to describe Lily? Great sense of humor. She knows herself really well already. She's very self-assured. Yes. Like during COVID and stuff, she would put on all these plays. Every time we would go on a big pod trip, she would. Organize a play. She makes movies with the kids and she directs all of them. And there's babies involved and she edits them all.

She's really good at that. So can't wait to hire her in eight years. But yeah, no, she's wonderful. Special girl. Very, very special. She came to us or whatever. And it was like, pick a name out of the hat. And there were people named people's names. And then also we had to pick another thing that said like, write a story or origami or something. Yes. And you had to match the two and do this by the end of the night. And,

And I was annoyed. We all were. Yeah. We were all annoyed. Like, God, we have homework now. Yes. I was like, I just wanted to relax today. And now we have to figure this out. And we have to because it's for a child. Right. Can't break her young dreams. Yep. And we did it. And it was spectacular. Yeah.

It was the best thing we ever, ever did. It was so heartwarming. And then the next year, which is great, is I had never received a text from Lily. And it just said, your secret turkey is blank. Yeah. And I didn't even know what that meant, but it was just an order. Yeah. Which was really fun. Yeah. So for the past few years, we've received with some weeks in advance, our secret turkey, someone in our pod, and we have to make the gift. Correct. Correct.

Or if you're Charlie, you say you made it, but you really hired an artist. Exactly. Which is very good. Yeah. And then we go around and we present our secret turkeys and it's a really special thing to do. And right now you're...

In that phase where you're stressed out about it. Yeah. But you're going to feel good once you accomplish it. It'll be wonderful. It's the best part of Thanksgiving. I haven't started mine, but I know what I'm doing. Okay, great. I'm excited to see who you have. And I'm excited. Well, everyone's a good person. Yeah. Yeah.

I basically have a lot of as much excitement as I have. I also have a ton of holiday anxiety because it's also limited a sweatshirt edition time. Yeah. So this is the time of the year where I've got to let go draw. And every time I enter it with the same anxiety because I can't draw very well.

That's not true. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yesterday, I sat down with an idea. It was actually your idea. So I had to draw three different things. I drew the first thing. I was like, oh my God, this is great. I sent it to you. Yeah. Really good. And then I tried to draw the next thing for hours and I just couldn't. I'm like, why can't I draw that thing and not this thing? Yeah, it is weird kind of. Were you looking at an image? Oh yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. It was just very frustrating and I couldn't.

I couldn't do it. And then I was like, and I can't bring in someone to do one of the three pictures. No, it has to be you. It's got to be from me. Now, I did order a device this morning. I'll have you know that I think might help with this. But also, I think you...

overthinking it. And this is because you actually are good at drawing that your bar is much higher. The thing I guess can we say? Yeah. Wanted to do a crow, a mouse and cherry. Yeah. Which is so cute. And then you were able to accomplish the mouse. Yeah. In fact, we're

Regardless of that, I do want to... Merry Christmas. I'm going to frame that for you for Christmas. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, yeah. The problem was the mouse is good enough that the crow looked like a crayon drawing. Like the... I know. They have to be somewhat comparable. I know. In detail. It's not like one can be a caricature and one can be photorealistic and then... Yeah, because the mouse is photorealistic. It has like hairs. Yeah, whiskers. And it's so detailed. It is so detailed. And...

And it's really, really good. But maybe you could dumb down. Give me that for Christmas. But then maybe you could do a version that's more crayon like the crow so that it matches. But so I ordered a light board today, an artist light board. What's that? So I trace the outside of a shape and then I do all the stuff. And the crow is just a big blob of black. And it just I couldn't even get the shape right. And then to get into the feathers and there's so many patterns that go all these different ways or whatever.

Now, a light board emits bright light behind the images you're doing. So like I could put an image and trace it. Yeah, I guess it's a cheat. No. Anyways, light boards are really popular. And I realize a lot of people are using light boards because once I got on there was all these different options. And then the stuff I was looking at, I was like, oh, yeah, I see that all the time. People are definitely using light boards. Oh, my God. Anyways, I ordered a pretty nice light board today. You're turning into a real artiste. Yeah, maybe this will send me on some kind of a trajectory. Yeah.

You could probably use your light board to make whatever your secret turkey gift. True. That's a good point. Okay. Great idea. Earmarked. Okay. I have a few funny stories I want to tell you. Okay. When I work out, there's a lot of mirrors in my gym and there's a lot of backlight. And I don't know when I look in the mirror in my bathroom, there's zero backlight. It's all front light.

And so what I see, and that's going to be a ding, ding, ding. When I see what's so backlit, that's where I'm seeing like, oh my Jennifer, I have so much hair growing out of my trapezius, my deltoids, my back. And then I see like really long stray hairs coming out of my neck, which are disgusting. And while I'm working out, all I can do is focus on those. Of course. So it occurred to me, I'm going to keep scissors in my gym now. Oh, wow. Okay. So that I can get the things I'm seeing.

So yesterday I fully was just going to work out. Okay. And I cut some hairs. Then I cut some more hairs. Then I gave myself a full haircut when I was working out. How can you reach? Do you know what my hair has cut from the last time you saw me? I got like a fresh cut right now.

That's because I gave myself a full haircut in the gym and I put a towel down and I would go over the mirror and I would just start cutting. And then I would walk outside and shake all the hair off. I'm like, that's it. Now get back to your workout. Working out a little bit more. Oh, I missed that spot, this spot. So I was in there working out for about an hour and 45 minutes and I got a terrible workout and I came out with a fresh haircut. You have an unusual marriage to your hair in that you sometimes have to like,

change it immediately. Like remember when you had to buy those shavers, you had to buy a razor when you were on vacation with Delta to shave your face in the parking lot? Right. Because I just hit a maximum capacity. I was like, this thing is way too long. I got to get it off my face. I felt like claustrophobic for it. And then I also, when I'm depressed, I'll give myself a radical haircut. But that started in junior high and it's kind of like a coping mechanism. It's not like we're going to reset

There's a new me and I'm not. And also I tend to trim my hair. Kristen points this out all the time. If she sees me like almost like five nights in a row doing some trimming in the mirror when I brush my teeth, she knows I have a lot of anxiety. So, yes, I currently have a lot of anxiety. And yes, so that you're you're right about that pattern. Well, do you want to talk about why you're depressed? I have a lot of work anxiety. Yeah, there's a lot of work anxiety right now. Yeah.

BTS. BTS. Where like I'm some days at eight going like to the family, may I go to bed?

They just go to bed. Now, if this was happening with a family member, what advice would you give them? Well, it happens all the time. And what advice do you give? Oh, so, you know, Kristen has depression. So hers won't necessarily be incident driven, right? It's not like she has a specific thing. She'll just have a wave of it.

And yeah, she'll sleep a lot. And there's really, there's nothing I can do or nor do I think I should do. I just go like, oh yeah, she's kind of in a slump. She's going to sleep a lot for a while and then she's going to come out of it. Now, earlier on, that used to scare me. And I was like, is this going to be forever? And I've just gone through the cycle enough that now I just go like, all right, yeah.

She's going to organize for a couple days really, really intensely. And then she's going to sleep a lot for a few days. And then it's going to be over. I guess I'm asking, like, what would your recommendations be if there was a prolonged period of what you felt was not a great state? Yeah. Well, yeah, there's steps. One is, like, I will gently and have, like...

Hey, love, have you checked in with your psychiatrist lately? Yeah, exactly. You know, I'm not saying you need to do anything. Just like, have you checked in with your psychiatrist? Yeah. So that'll be like one thing I can do.

It's evolved because I used to try to fix it. Yeah. That's my nature. Yeah. And I used to try to talk her out of it or tell her what's good in her life or, you know, gratitude list. One thing I'll still do. And she she likes this and it's not it doesn't trigger feeling judged about being sad is let's go for a walk or let's go for a hike. Like just encouraging. Let's go, you know, move around. But I'm still moving around. I'm still doing all my workouts.

That's good. Oh, another great update. So I got the toe thing looked at. Yeah. Guess what I'm doing tomorrow? I'm going to the dentist. Wow. First time in 10 years. Oh my God. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Guess what else I'm going to do? I'm going to have my teeth whitened. Get your ears cleaned. Oh, wow. Yeah.

What do you think about that? I think that's great. I've been seeing a lot of pictures of myself from olden days, and I realized my teeth used to be so much whiter. Oh. I had, you know, I had four or five years of tobacco use. Sure. Yeah, coming up on a year without it. Are you worried? About it being too bright? Oh, no, but that is a really funny episode of Friends. Yeah, yeah. No, but like it hurts. Oh, yeah, it hurts really bad. Because I did it like,

18 years ago. Yeah. And it was miserable. Yeah. But I think I'm going to, and they won't like this, but I'm, well, at least when I did it before you did multiple sessions and

And I'm going to go, I can handle just a little bit of lightning. I don't got to go all the way and have the insane tooth pain. Like I won't trade. I'm willing to just do halfway. I feel like I wasted some money, but not yet. Cause when I did the first time it felt like ice picks in my teeth. If you haven't had it done, have you? No, no need. What a bitch. I use that arm and hammer. You know, I, I don't, I keep telling you and you can do it. It's, it's at your disposal, but you just,

You just don't. Yeah, but also you never chewed tobacco and you're new to coffee. I'm new, but I drink a lot of red wine. Yeah, that's problematic. God, imagine what they would look like if you didn't drink so much red wine. Do they not look good? They're so white.

They're very enviable. It doesn't help that I work with you because I'm staring at like as white as they can get all the time. Natural. Now you're right. You can go way too far. You can. And you can tell. To me, you can tell. I guess this is the reverse veneers conversation. Yeah. Gotta be careful. It's a fine line. Yeah. Well, we'll find you'll see Thursday. Okay, great. I'm excited. Yeah.

Now, I just remember we were on camera, so I showed my teeth and I remembered something else. People will definitely say, Monica, do you have a hickey? Oh, let me see. And do you? I don't. Oh. Do you see it though? I do not. Oh, really? Will you point to where it's at? Well, I don't remember. Oh.

On that side. A little bruise. Yeah, it's a bruise, which is a hickey. How'd that happen? I had a refresh of my Botox. Oh, okay. They do your neck? Yeah, they do because I have a very strong neck. Uh-huh. And so they have to put some Botox in there. Okay. To make it less strong. Less strong. Yeah, it's too strong. What if you woke up in the morning and you went to lift your head up and you couldn't and you came into work and your head was like this and you go, and you go, you ever get toothpaste? Or?

Here we go. Full talks. Okay, so in this episode, Anna goes into the bathroom and while she's in the bathroom, you're telling me about your potential cashmere sweater that you're going to make out of your back hair. Thank you. I guess you collected some more yesterday. No, I didn't. But I see that a new crop is coming.

Coming in. Did I already say, in case you missed that episode, basically I discovered I had all this back care from the backlighting of the gym. I was saying it out loud to my family and Lincoln said, do you want me to shave your back? Which I think is a dirty job. I would have never asked her to shave my back. That sounds...

Well, first of all, like very vain on my, like I've got my kids grooming me now, but she offered and, um, and I shave her legs for her. Yeah. That's cute. And so have you thought about combining? That's a great idea. Well, maybe, um, two different sweaters. So anyways, so I sat on the edge of the bathtub and she shaved my whole back.

And then I collected it to throw it away. And I couldn't help but notice, by George, this is the softest hair I've ever felt in my life. I would have never thought my hair was this soft. So then...

Lincoln and I decided that I should start collecting it because it's cashmere. Sure. And that at some point, maybe when I'm 60 or 70, I'll have enough for a sweater. Yeah. Yes. And so. So you brought it. I brought it and I keep it in this bag now. Yeah.

I don't know if that's how you spell cashmere. And as you can see from the amount in it, it's going to take a long time. It's really, really going to take. But I really wanted you to feel it because I think anyone you tell this to is like, there's no way it's what you say it is. But you're very objective and you don't ever lie to benefit me. You spelled it right. I did. I want you to take it out and touch it.

And Rob, you're invited to, too, but be careful you don't get any stuck to your fingers. Yeah, you can't waste any. No, I don't have enough to spare. Yes, yes, definitely dry your fingers off. I know. Okay, yeah, there's really not a lot to work with here. You can pull it all the way out. Oh, wow. And you want to go like this between your fingers as if it's a cashmere sweater. Okay, okay.

It's okay. Everything's okay. I'm scared of dropping something. Really enjoy it. Okay. Wow. What do you think? Go ahead and touch it with your other fingers. I'm good. Wow. It is really soft. Have you ever felt hair that soft? I haven't.

Hold on. Let me. Yeah. Use both hands. Well, no, I want to do like a comparative. Now you could make a snowmobile suit in like a day, but. But not this hair is coarser. Right. Very different.

Yeah, it's really soft. Hold on. What about arm hair? Yeah, I imagine that might be similar. I have a lot of arm hair. That's when they said I was a woolly mama. I mean, werewolf. One of them. A woolly werewolf. Okay. It's really nice. Rob, do you want to grab a little? Rob, do you want to keep your job? He doesn't want to. Don't make him. Okay, but it is starting to fall apart. It's okay.

Do you love it? It is soft. Rob, don't downplay it. It's very soft. It's compressed a lot. Yeah. I did that on purpose. Where is it? Oh my God. Guys, guys, that's so hard to come by.

That's like rare earth metals. Yes. Oh my God. Get this back in here. This is so rare. And to remind people, this is my competitive product to Brad Pitt's God's True Cashmere. My company is going to be my true cashmere. Oh no, it should be called Bax True Cashmere because it's almost your name and it's your back. Bax with an X. Yes. Bax Cashmere.

Wow, guys, that's a great. How do you feel about me? Like just putting a tiny bit of my arm hair. Oh, that would be great. That would be great. That's similar to pee baby. Okay. Got a couple. You did. Okay, great. Yeah. Just add it to the. Wow. It's pretty special, right? Like I feel, I feel like that came off a baby. I can't believe.

Wait till I have a gallon size Ziploc bag. Oh my God. I don't know if this is the best vessel because I see little hairs all over. They're not in the little ball they were in. Every time you touch it, it does lose a little bit of its quality. Thanks for being willing to touch that.

I hope it delivered. I'm going to give it a touch too. Oh God. I'm going to see, cause I was just talking about in a way that now I'm wondering, is it as soft as I remember? It got smaller, which is a little concerning. Well, I didn't get smaller. It got compacted. Yeah. It's wow. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare.

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Yeah, we don't have much left after that little... That might be the last show and tell of my cashmere. Wait, no. Now it's just more compacted, but you're going to need to compact it. Well, it's all over the bag. I got to learn how to spin yarn too, because isn't that part of what I'll have to do? Yeah. Okay. So that's a fact, because you said that cashmere comes from a goat's...

Chin? Chin hairs. It does. It comes from the soft undercoat of cashmere goats. Ah, and they're up in Tibet, yeah? No, India. Cashmere India with a K. Okay. Oh, right. Cashmere. When we were in India, I did get myself some cashmere scarves from cashmere. From cashmere? Mm-hmm.

I presume they grow them elsewhere. But it's like champagne. Yep. Where you're only really drinking champagne if it comes from Champagne, France. Speaking of things to consume, I just saw Anora in the movie theater. It's a movie to see in the movie theater. Uh-huh. Currently out. It's...

So good. It is. What's it about? You can't tell? I don't really want to say too much. Good. I prefer that. Yeah. Is there anyone in it I know? I don't think you probably know anyone in it. Right. But you will. I think she's definitely going to get nominated and might win. And she is so good. And I mean, everyone's so good in it. But the main thing.

actress mickey madison she um is a revelation it's really something to see it's so weird because it's like a it's sad like there's like sad things that happen but there's also like there's there's such comedy throughout so tonally and sometimes i don't like that when tones are sort of all over the place but they nailed it i like multiple tones and things sometimes i think it

Can feel forced. Yes. But it didn't here. But like Hit and Run was like a car chase movie, but it was a relationship movie and it was. But tonally it was one. It had one tone. It was different genres were mixed. I think you can do multiple tones if you're the writer director. It is. It's Sean Baker. He did the Florida Project and Red Rocket. Okay. That makes a lot of sense.

I think if you're a writer-director, like, I would be thinking about this when I was doing Hit and Run because there's, like, there's some broad comedy scenes with nudity and old people. Then there's some really violent scenes. But...

The unifying tone is it's everything I like. So it's bizarrely consistent tonally, even though it's like everything I like in one movie. Right. It's such a good movie. I'm going to see it. I really highly recommend it. There's some good movies lately. Substance, Honora. Substance. Substance again. Honora. Yeah. Poor Things Last Year. Yeah. So Woman of the Hour.

Ding, ding, ding. Do you love it? Yeah. I mean, it's... It's dark. Dark, yeah. But yes, so well done. It's very well made. She killed it. The notion that she pitched herself hours before they had to have a director and then had six weeks of prep and then executed that is hugely impressive. It really is. It really is. Very good job, Anna. Good job, Anna. Okay.

I have an update, a huge update. Ring's back. My ring is back. Yeah. But it's a little smaller now? Yeah. So I got it soldered back and I think it's a mix of it being maybe a teeny bit smaller because of like, you know, they probably have to overlap it a tiny bit to solder it.

Would be my guess. Maybe not. But anyway, it might be a little bit smaller. And I think my knuckle is permanently bigger now. A bit bigger. From the B. So I had to really shove this thing on. It took a while. And while I was doing it, I was like,

is this a, this is a, what am I doing? I'm doing, I'm setting myself up for another horrible situation. Right. But I kept going. In AA we say doing the same thing and expecting different results. I know. They say that in AA. They also. They say it everywhere I think too. There's a quote that Einstein says.

That's like insanity is the definition. The definition of insanity is... And I'm doing the same thing over and over again. Anyway, I worked really hard to get this on. Yeah. It is never coming off. Well, maybe I'll, you know, at any moment you want me to take it off, we've gone down this road, I can get it off in seconds. Oh.

I hope I die with it on. Okay. I hope that's in a hundred years, but yeah, that sounds fine. At first when I put it back on, I had, I had so much fear that I made a huge mistake and that I should not have put it back on and that I'm jinxing. I, well, my God, now it's like a triple jinx. Yes. It was, it's a reverse back jinx. Uh huh.

Because I really started to believe that the ring was the cause to a lot of bad stuff that's going on in the world and personally. Yeah. And you did try to tell me that it wasn't the case. You said, I'm not that powerful. Yeah. Which was a nice thing to say, but I don't believe you, uh,

Because a lot, also one of my favorite restaurants closed. Oh, no. Things started to really. Unravel. Shit really started to unravel. Yeah. So I had to get it back on. But then as soon as I did, I thought.

oh, maybe you're not supposed to go back. Maybe this is a lesson in not going back. Right, not trying to go back to high school or recreate. Recreate magic. No, it's a cute ring. It looks great on your hand and you love it. And it really symbolizes something beautiful and you should continue to love it and embrace it. Your first big job.

And you got a reward for yourself. I did. I love it. Can you wear it on a different finger that's smaller? I can't wear it anywhere again. Because you can't get it off. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, that makes me panic. I did make a joke that I think the bee...

That stung me was of a different political party that I'm affiliated with. Uh-huh. Really got in there, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did some dirty work. Sure. You know, one of the scariest I've ever been is I have, I have since this moment been stung enough that I know I've outgrown my bee allergy. You know, infamously in second grade, my whole face disappeared and I almost died.

Stop breathing. Yeah. And so I had to stop breathing because he put a sheet on your face. He had put wet washcloth on my face, similar to what we did to Bubba Bob. And I carried an EpiPen and whatnot. And then I got stung and then I went to the hospital and they just monitor me, whatever. I now wouldn't have this fear, but.

When I was in an archaeology class and we were digging up in the Santa Monica Mountains at Stunt Ranch, a swarm of bees was migrating. And you all of a sudden heard it. And then crazy enough, our archaeology teacher, he had been on a dig in South America and a student got killed, a graduate student, by getting attacked by bees. So I only imagine what his PTSD is about all this. He calls it out. He's like, everyone still? And you can hear like...

And you start hearing it, hearing it, hearing it. And we just all sat there. And it was like biblical. It was a cloud. And when they went overhead, now mind you, they were still probably 60 feet above us. It's not like they were coming down. But there was a moment where it was a visible black cloud. And the amount of noise they made was on par with when a helicopter, when a LA police helicopter flies over. It was...

so loud in so many, a trillion of them. And I'm thinking I'm allergic to them still. And I remember just like, should I run? Should I not run? Should I run? Should I stay here? Should I run? And I just, I stayed. And then they passed. Obviously I didn't die. Good thing you stayed. Yeah. You think I would have caught their attention? Yes. Your teacher said specifically, don't move. I'm glad you listened. That's interesting too, because part of the reason the student had died was

was that everyone ran and he ran kind of uphill and he got stuck. He couldn't climb any higher. Oh my God. Yeah. Sorry I brought that up.

It's a horrible story. It's not a good story. And I apologize for it. It's very my girl. So anyway, so Ring is back. We'll see how the world takes that in TBD. One other thing I want to say really quick. So I almost did something bad. Oh, good. But I didn't. I like bad stuff. Tell me. So I was at a restaurant the other day and I went to the bathroom. Very rare for me. Right. Yeah. I don't pee a lot.

The bathroom smelled so good. Oh, good. Also very rare to go to a public restroom and it smelled good. Yeah. And when I was peeing, I saw there was this big candle lit. Uh-huh. I was like, that's the cause of this delicious smell. And I went and I was trying to see what the brand is and what it was. And I couldn't find it.

So I went back to my seat and I asked the server, what is the candle in the bathroom? I really like it. He said, yeah, we get this a lot. It's specifically made for us. You're in a bizarre pattern.

No, it's that I know how to sniff out limited a dish. Yes, you do. And he said, oh, yeah. Where were you wanting to get the candle holders off the table? Remember that? Oh, man. And I tried to find those candles. Again, back to my bad gift giving. And I tried to find those candle holders and I was unsuccessful. Shoot, I don't even remember. So many things you like at restaurants, it would be hard to...

I walk through the world. I am like. You're like Terminator, but instead of scanning for risks or threats. Yes. You're scanning for items that could be in your house. That is how I operate. So he said it's limited with different words. He said it's limited edition. Then a manager came over.

And I said, oh, is this about the candles? And she said, yeah. So we get a shipment every Monday. So we'll be getting more tomorrow. You have a big purse. I don't know if you want to go in there. Steal it. She said there's a lot in there. So there's multiple in there. Oh, my God. She was giving you. She was giving.

which is why this was tricky. Can I just say one of my favorites early, early SNL sketches was I think Eddie Murphy or one of the black cast members went in white face and it was like a fake documentary, like a 60s documentary. So he experienced what it was like to be white and he goes into a shoe store and he tries on some shoes and he goes, oh yeah, these are great. And the guy goes, take them.

And he finds out that like white people aren't even paying for anything. Just take them. And everyone was like that. Oh my God, that's hilarious. This is basically what happened to you. The owner's just like, just take it. Yeah. Wow. Not the owner, the manager, which is why I'm not going to say the name of the place. I don't want to get her in trouble. Right. So I went in there with my bag, really excited.

And I opened the cabinet. There's a bunch of these candles. Oh, wow. And so I take one and I put it in my purse. The weirdest life. I started washing my hands and I thought, I can't do it. Oh. I can't do it. I took it out. Unexpected. And I put it back. Yeah. That's kind of good karmically.

I don't know. You just got to figure out how to buy them or talk about them enough on here that they send them to you. And now I can't say the place. So I really put myself in a pickle. Now I went back to that place and- Like, will you be in bed thinking about what you're in the mood for to eat? And then you go, and then in your calculations, like, I don't even know what I want to eat, but I want to smell a candle. So I want to go eat at that restaurant or I want to see the mugs. So I want to eat at that restaurant. Like, are you deciding to go to places-

for smells and the trinkets they have? Okay, so twofold. Yes, in that I will pick locations based on ambiance and vibe. But no, like I wouldn't have gone back to Budenoki just to see the mugs because that's in fact taunting. Yeah, okay, I got you. I have to have it. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. I wonder what that's about.

I don't feel safe unless I have it. Seeing from afar is lame. Having it is un-lame. Write that down. That's a quote. That's a new quote. Yep. Now, anyway, I was back there with some other friends and

a friend offered to take my purse and go get it. This person has not very many morals. Right. I know who you're talking about. No, you don't. Okay. I know who you think I'm talking about and it's not him. It's not him. It's not Jess. I would have thought Anna too. It was Anna. Yeah. Well, you know who I hang out with, so that's part of it. Yeah, but it's deeper than that. I know Callie didn't do it. I know Rachel wasn't going to do that. I mean-

It's not going to be Laura. It's not going to be. Callie might do it. She might. Yeah, she'll. She's a wild. Oh, I shouldn't say that. She's she would never do something like that. Some of Callie's co-workers. Listen, I just found out, which is exciting. Oh, yeah. Hi, co-workers. So anyway, I said no again. Yeah, great. And then back. And I really hesitated because I thought, well, I'm not doing it. It's the same thing. You're going to get something you didn't pay for. And, you know, you'll know it.

I'm saying good job. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do want it. You're going to be able to figure out who makes this candle. No, I'm going to be fine without it. Oh, okay. That's also a good goal. I'm going to be fine. I don't need it. What's it going to do for my life? Nothing. I mean, it is going to make my house smell so nice. But you already have a lot of candles. I have a lot of candles. I have a lot of great candles. None smell like that, but that's okay. And I'll...

Get through this. You'll be stronger for it. So that was my almost stealing. Maybe because I stole when I was young and that was really bad. Yeah. And apparently my mom cried. Well, that's what my dad told me happened back then. What had you stolen? More than the cookies. I stole the cookies and then I stole the boy's sand art. And your mom cried over that? Well, my dad told me that, but I think he was lying. I don't think she did. Yeah. I think he was trying to guilt me. Yeah. And it worked.

I know. You don't steal anymore. It was a good, what are you going to say? Wow, that's good parenting, actually. It is. It's great parenting. Your mother has, your mother was inconsolable for a week. Like, she seems fine. At night, she's been crying in bed. I don't steal. Next to me.

Well, you tried to steal a parking meter. Well, I did steal a parking meter. So I don't think you can- I did try to rob a 7-Eleven. Yeah. What are you talking about? I had a compartment in my head, right? Yeah. When I was younger and an alcoholic. Uh-huh. Oh, I'm going to say this one thing. We're going too long in our new goals and I go so long. I know. But I was just in Kauai. My 40-hour trip was Kauai. I have not been there in 20 years since my last week of drinking. Oh.

Wow. Yeah. How did it feel? It felt great. I saw the guardrail me and the dude smashed into on the way to buy ice. I saw the crazy hotel Dean and I were at that I went jogging after being awake for three days. I saw all the stuff and I thought,

wow, we're back here. Yeah. Look how different everything is. You should be so proud of yourself. You made the right turn when you left here. It was a bizarre way to reflect on like, what was my life like and my mental health 20 years ago when I was there? And what is it like today? Yeah. And such an obvious decision was made. And I'm now there

with a family and I'm healthy and yeah, it was, uh, it was, it was rad. That's wonderful. Yeah. I liked it a lot. I love that. I kind of thought I would never go back there. Yeah. I got invited to go there. So I don't even know I would ever picked it. Cause it's, yeah, it's my last week and it was a gnarly week. Um, but it was very fun to be there and just go like, Oh man, did we dodge a bullet if we would have stayed the course.

A, we wouldn't be alive right now. And B, we would just not have the life we have. So it was, yeah, it was cool. That's lovely. Yeah. Great time to reflect. Well, did that do anything for. My work anxiety? Yeah. Yeah. My, my time there was a beautiful, I did, I left all of my worries in Los Angeles and

And did have a totally carefree, wonderful 40 hours. Is that what you're asking? Well, sort of. I guess like the reflection. Oh, did it help me with my current? Like you being able to really, really have a physical reminder of where you were and where you are. Yeah. And understanding like the stuff that's happening is really, really, really frustrating. Uh-huh.

Not really not fun. Yeah. But in the grand scheme, like look where you are and what you're doing. Yeah. I'm aspiring to be there, but I'd be lying if I said I could. I mean, one of the tools I'm employing is like, everything's fine.

Everything's fine. Everything at this point could get destroyed and I'd still be very fine. Yeah. So I am cycling through that reminder when I'm doing the other things to help. And then I just get caught in the loop. You know, I get caught in the rumination. You know, my sense of injustice going crazy. And so I, yeah. And then I get stuck in it. And then I say you're stuck in it, but it has no effect on being stuck in it. Sure, I know. Yeah.

Have you considered reaching back out to your therapist? I didn't consider doing it, but I did have a moment of like, why aren't you talking to your therapist? This would be a time. It's a good time. Yeah. Yeah. It did kind of cross my mind. Maybe. It's also easy to forget when you've been out of it for a little bit how helpful it is. Yeah. But yes, I agree with you. And that's probably a good idea. Yeah. I don't. I think it might be a good idea. I had therapy and it was helpful. Oh, good. Yeah.

Okay. So, uh, are 90% of Asians lactose intolerant? Um,

70 to 100% of people in East Asia are lactose intolerant. Yeah. So yeah, 90s right in there. You know what would make you proud of your girl Lincoln? She had to name all 32 countries on a map of Asia for a test and she got 32 out of 32. Wow, that's incredible. She even hit me with the name of a country I didn't even know. She knows now. That's awesome. Yeah. I thought she was making one up. I had to get out my Google map. Okay, when did Missoni and Target do the collab? 2011.

Mm hmm. OK, the seahorse situation where you said they're made of dust. Those are sea monkeys. Those are sea monkeys. And a lot of commenters pointed that out. Yeah, they're sea monkeys. And sea monkeys is a colloquial term for a shrimp brine. Shrimps.

And it's really just so disgusting. And it's a powder. Yep. And it's very disgusting. Yeah. Oh, and then I'm going to play one clip before we end here. Okay. I love a clip. Most memorable moments from the Newlywood game. What's the old urban legend? You know, where's the strangest, most unusual place you ever made whoopee? That didn't make it on the air. But she actually said that. Well, she said worse.

All of a sudden, there was an urban legend that went out there that said, I said, where's the strangest, most unusual place you've ever made whoopee? And the lady was supposed to have said, well, that would be in the butt, Bob.

And that never happened. That never happened. About five years ago, I get a call from Game Show Network and they said, "You better come down here and take a look at this." So I go down and take a look at it. And there is this little Caucasian lady from Pennsylvania, right? Her name was Olga. And I said, "Where's the strangest, most unusual place you've ever made whoopee?" And she says, "In the ass."

I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It has to be a location. Oh, sorry. You know, so that asshole that didn't make it on the air. We cuckooed that one out. Also, what's his name? Bobby Banks. Bobby Banks. Bob.

If the person in your story's name is Olga, you don't have to say Caucasian. We could definitely context clue that. You know what's funny? I almost said, I like that he said that. Because people would say black, right? Yeah, that's fair. What's the other one? There's another really famous funny one, which is...

Yeah. Karate class. Karate class. What's the setup for that? Is it condiments? I think it is condiment. Oh, is it? What's your favorite condiment? Karate class. No. What's your husband's favorite condiment? Karate class. I don't think. I think. Here, I can email you it. What would your husband say is his favorite condiment? Oh, I would say his pool table upstairs. Definitely.

I never heard that word before. I need to start this karate school. Karate school. What will your husband say is his favorite condiment? Karate school. No one knew what condiment was. No. I would have thought they were confused it with condom, but they confuse it with like recreation. Right.

Interesting. Very. All right. So that's it. We love Anna Kendrick. We were so delighted she came back to us. We love her, love her, love her. And oh, do you want to? She came to Halloween. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on the episode, she said she felt bad that she ghosted. And then we invited her to Halloween. And she was very, very brave. Came all by herself and joined our family.

outfit. She did. She was Claire Corningstone or whatever. Veronica Corningstone. Veronica Corningstone. Yeah. From Channel 4 News. Yeah. Anchorman. Good job, Anna. Yeah. That's called growth. Growth. We love it. We love to see it. All right. All right. Love you.

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In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her, and she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses, and specific instructions for people's murders.

This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C True Crime shows like Morbid early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening.