Need-To-Know Money Lessons from the WNBA with Nneka Ogwumike
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The business of sports is going through a revolution, with college athletes getting more opportunities to make money from college sports fandom than ever before, the legalization of sports betting, and more ways than ever to watch. Of all of the big developments in sports business, the one I find most fascinating right now is the WNBA. And so I was stoked to talk to Nneka Ogumike, a ridiculously talented WNBA player for the LA Sparks.

She's also currently the president of the WNBA Players Association, a position she was elected to in 2016 and then again in 2019. Today we talk about the growth of the WNBA, why being compared to the NBA isn't actually helpful, and the difficult position these players are now in because historically they've been able to supplement their income by playing abroad when the season in the United States ends.

But that reality is more complicated now after Brittany Griner was held in Russia. I especially love Nneka's advice for negotiating that she's putting to work for her league and anyone can use. Here's our conversation. Nneka Ogumike, welcome to Money Rehab. Thanks for having me.

So let's jump right in. I know there's a lot of elements that are problematic about comparing the NBA and the WNBA, so I'm not going to do a lot of that here. But to start out our conversation, I just want to throw out the pay and the investment discrepancy here because it is

Crazy bananas staggering. Some reports put the average salary of a WNBA player at 113 K a season, while the average NBA player is 5.4 million. And that is after the historic collective bargaining agreement that you led in 2020. Many NBA players make in one game what a WNBA player makes in one season. It is astonishing. I don't have a question. I just want to like sit in that moment for a second.

Did I miss any of the stats? No, you hit them all.

It makes me think about tennis and they just celebrated 50 years of equal pay at the U.S. Open. So I'm trying to think about what lessons perhaps basketball could borrow from tennis. Like tennis is less gender segregated than basketball, right? The men's and the women's finals at the U.S. Open play the same day at the same venue. Do you think there's more collaboration that could be done with the WNBA and the NBA or strategic programming on ESPN or Fox Sports that could encourage more crossover viewership?

Yeah, I mean, I think that sports are sports and of course, having the discrepancies, you know, it's because of the world that we were kind of led to believe to exist in. And it has a lot to do with the inequalities and the inequities of women and their roles in society. And so a lot of women in sport, they have a much different starting line.

And that really attributes to, I think, the evolution or lack thereof that we're seeing when it comes to investment and, of course, compensation and then reflective value in partnerships and endorsements and deals. But I've also learned through discussions, through reflection, through research and educating myself, the difference across different sports. And when you think about tennis, you would expect that to be a little bit more even across the board because

I think that it's kind of a little bit more individual based. Team sports are a bit different and that's something that we're learning very much. Being in the WNBA and then seeing

how, like you said, tennis athletes are receiving endorsement and partnership in different way and also equal pay in different ways. And I think that having a larger group of women in sport, especially if that's how they perform, I think it incorrectly creates more variable in those who have the agencies to invest.

rather than seeing one asset and the liabilities or not of that asset, you know? And so when you see the WNBA, when you see women's basketball players, it's so much more complex than,

if you were to just kind of break it down in layman's terms, because there's more players. There's large markets with so many different vectors that affect those markets. And unfortunately, those are seen as obstacles and challenges when it comes to making investment rather than opportunities as we see, say, you know, on the NBA side.

But that's kind of what I've gathered from being so close to it all. What do you think the ideal relationship is between the WNBA and the NBA? I think that there's certainly a relationship of respect being that, you know, we do exist because of the support from the NBA. But I also think that there has to be an acknowledgement and awareness that

not just of evolution, but of just general composition. We are playing the same sports, but we are two very different leagues. And I mean that to say that we have high performing athletes on both sides playing at the best against the best.

But the market is very different when it comes to the WNBA. And I think that's something that we're slowly realizing and kind of breaking out of the expectations that came with the support from the NBA. So while still maintaining the understanding that we are very much supported, we have to also understand that we are not so similar that we shouldn't explore a different framework or blueprint to the business in the WNBA.

Some WNBA players can supplement their income by playing overseas. Can you explain more of that for people who might not realize? Absolutely. I played overseas for seven years. And most times when you play in the W, you know that it comes with playing year round. And generally, we're used to the understanding that you get drafted straight out of college. And a couple weeks later, you're in the league and you're playing in your rookie season.

And towards the end of that season, you have about a week, a few days to a week or so to go overseas. And those seasons, they follow kind of the same calendar as the NBA season or as basketball season as people would kind of expect. And you play in whatever country signs you based on what team wants you. And as long as you have good stats in the W, it really does help

determine what kind of contract you sign overseas and there are target markets that have greater contracts and better experiences and players really work hard to be seen and to put their talents out there to be selected for teams overseas and playing professional basketball if you play both the w and overseas is a 12 month job i've heard that some players make

10x overseas what they make in the US. Is that right? That is true. I mean, one of the top paying countries I was reading is Russia, notably Brittany Greiner was playing for a Russian team when she was detained for 10 months in what was largely viewed as an act of political aggression by Russia against the US. So it's striking to me that this is the reality for some female basketball players like make 100k, which is, as we should say, good money in the US, but not as much as an NBA salary.

or make that in another country and potentially one that's adversarial to the United States. That's a tricky position to be in. It is, you know, I think it's unfortunate, but players have had to make very difficult decisions when it comes to them fulfilling their dreams and earning a living doing what they love and really what they're talented at. And

I've been in that position many times. The markets over there, they change periodically, especially since the pandemic and of course, the detainment of BG. But when I was playing, Russia was a target market. Turkey is a target market. Plenty of countries in Europe, whether it's France and Spain, Israel is also another market. Australia has a really good market. I played in China a couple of years.

There is a lot of opportunity, but people want to play at home. And that's something that we're working to ensure is the best option and the most sustainable option. Were you scared in looking at those options or have fellow players been nervous, especially after BG? Most certainly after BG. I think players have also been nervous.

nervous before because you don't really grow up thinking about living in another country for so long for your job. So I think players had to come to terms with an adjustment of understanding that, you know, to earn my living, I'm going to have to do this. And that's something that I very much did.

Of course, now after the pandemic and what happened in Russia, players are very careful about where they decide to go. More players are deciding to capitalize on opportunities, off-court opportunities that they have here in the States and seeing how they can maximize on those things to enhance their brand. So hopefully when the W season comes, they can play well and get more partnerships and deals.

And everyone is kind of making the best decisions for themselves. But there's very much still a good amount of players that are playing year round. And so in 2020, I'd love to double click on the new collective bargaining agreement or CBA. How did this new agreement address overseas leagues? So we had to be very creative when we were negotiating because there was, I guess,

I guess a prioritization perspective that the league was coming from, they wanted to make sure that the WNBA was the prioritizing to play in. And so,

There was a lot of very new thought processing that we had to go through as an executive committee and back and forth, of course, with the league to figure out how this could work, considering just what we were talking about, that players choose to play overseas. Some players have to play overseas to earn better living. And we didn't want to erase that as an opportunity for the women of the WNBA because that's really something that kind of coexists with us being able to play in the WNBA.

And that prioritization is each year there's a trigger and each year there are different penalties for players coming in late. And that was kind of how we were able to get creative with the league to ensure that players still had that opportunity. And we're deep into the prioritization clause now to see exactly how that's going to affect players who choose to play overseas and may have to come later.

who choose not to and are seeking other opportunities. Can you share some of the big wins that were secured in 2020? Sure. You know, I mean, I think we came to the conclusion that prioritization is something we could be flexible with because we, of course, were able to secure higher compensation and marketing agreements for the players in our last collective bargaining agreement. And most notably, of course,

family planning benefits, especially for working mothers, which we have a lot of in the W. Those are some really big wins along with a few player experience details that not a lot of people know about if you're not playing, but you would maybe think are standard that we kind of had to fix. And we've seen a lot of good feedback from that. And we've seen a lot of players benefit from those wins that we were able to negotiate.

What was it like before the 2020 CBA for any player who wanted to start a family? I'm not sure how players were squaring starting a family because the opportunity to play was something that didn't feel like it was always going to be available to us. And

There was a larger conversation around keeping family planning on hold. And that had a lot to do with the lack of benefits and the lack of support and resources that were available for players in the W to start families. And now after the CBA, we see a lot of mothers who have guaranteed pay with their maternity leave and the support that they need to be able to come back in a timely manner without feeling as though that they're going to either put their careers on hold

or not be paid just because they wanted to start a family. And I'm really excited to see that we have women in this league who are owning that and taking advantage of those resources and redefining what it means to be a working woman, especially in sports.

I love that. And you alluded to this idea that some of the nitty gritty of it, people would have already assumed was a thing. Maybe you were talking about travel, but I was particularly shocked by the travel component of this. In the new agreement, players now get premium economy status when they fly and an individual hotel room for each player. These felt like no brainers to me. I would have already assumed that

At least that existed before. So before this agreement, what was the standard travel and accommodation? Yeah, so those are the things that I was talking about. Like you said, people might think are just normal things. You know, everybody knows that we travel commercially, but there was no requirement for those seats to be as comfortable as possible within the parameters of the CBA. And we were able to change that.

And quite frankly, the individual hotel rooms was something that I was very shocked about when I came into the W. So being able to change that, especially as a grown woman working professionally,

I don't think anyone ever anticipates to share a hotel room with a coworker unless you want to, which I'm not sure if there's many people out there that want to. So you don't fly first class or like if you want to fly first class, you have to pay for it? Or how does that work? If you want to fly first class, you have to pay for your ticket. All right. Well, tell me a little preview if you can about what's coming up for 2027. Was there anything...

left on the cutting room floor from the 2020 negotiation. Will we potentially see in the future that first class is the floor? I mean, I'm hoping, you know, that's something that you've seen a lot of players speak out about. And we're looking forward to changes in player health and safety. It's not just about experience.

It's about how we travel to our games, how we can recover for our games and how we're able to manage the increased cadence and number of games in a season. So that is certainly top of the list as we look to continue to change things. Well, I'll say the obvious. I mean, negotiating with a group that has a lot of power is hard.

especially if that group is your employer. It's a position that a lot of people are in with a lot of the strikes going on, auto industry, healthcare industry, and more. Is there any advice that you'd have for people navigating some of these big negotiations, either with players associations or other unions, big Goliaths? I think the greatest success, especially as we are seeing with the SAG after strikes, and also us experiencing us negotiating our last CBA,

is to listen, to listen to the many and to ensure that everyone has space to be able to tell their story and share their experience because a lot of us really have more similarities than differences and moving forward together

in groups and solidarity is, I think, the best way to make any type of change, especially against seemingly larger, more powerful groups. But I always like to remember that we work hand in hand with the WNBA as members of the WNBPA. But at the end of the day, there is no union without the players. There is no league without the players. And that's something that I think a lot of people who are

- Looking to foster change and to demand change should remember is that there's definitely power in numbers. - Hold onto your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. Between summer vacations and going to the beach and having the hot girl or guy summer of your dreams,

season can be a little hard on our wallets. A Chime checking account helps you reach your financial goals while still enjoying the summer. You can take back your finances with features like fee-free overdraft up to $200 with SpotMe or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. And you know I hate overdrafted fees. One time I overdrafted buying a latte, which was so embarrassing at the time, but hey,

It happens to the best of us. And I got charged $35 for a $7 latte. But Chime allows you to overdraft up to $200 with no fees, and you can get temporarily increased overdraft limits with boosts from friends. Live it up this summer and make progress toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime.

Feels like progress.

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Recently, the NBA signed a $39 million deal with Ion TV to televise Friday night games. It's a contract that values each game significantly more than the league's ongoing deal with ESPN. The ESPN contract, right, expires in 25. What would you want to see in 26? Definitely more money without a doubt. It's always something good to want. Right. Right.

That's the reason why, a big reason why the NBA is able to sign some of these large contracts is because of the TV deals. And we're seeing an increase in viewership and fan engagement, and that should be reflected in our next media rights deal. Amen. You've said that, quote,

We need to figure out how to bring fandom that we see on the college side to the professional ranks. Now, obviously, college basketball, professional basketball are very different sports. So what's happening in college sports right now that isn't happening in the league? I think that in college sports, there is an audience that is being catered to in very specific ways, especially when it comes to women's sports. But then there's

There's also a pride that really drives the foundation of fan engagement. You know, you have people who may not watch a particular sport, but went to that school. You know, you have hometown heroes and different athletes at different universities. And bridging that gap is very important for the WNBA because we see such a drop in fan engagement from players who get drafted into the WNBA from college. And

In the last Final Four, of course, we saw just how impactful players can be and teams can be when you give visibility, when you grant accessibility, and when you maximize on the cultural capital that a lot of these athletes have that really translates into the dollars that a lot of these NIL deals are reflecting. And being able to understand your audience and understand the business is incredibly important.

and can really bridge the gap between women's college basketball and the WBA. NIL deals, just to clarify for anyone who might not realize, name, image, likeness deals. Yes.

We should also clarify, though, that the W fans are incredible. I was watching your clip with Trevor Noah on The Daily Show where you say that the audience should just go to a W game and somebody from the crowd yells about having gone for 20 something years. I mean, the fans are there. They absolutely are. And I think this is an interesting point because we talked about knowing your audience and knowing your market and

We see a lot of engagement at games. You know, I always tell people that the experience watching in person is almost kind of like the gateway in the WNBA. And I heavily encourage people to try and experience it in person. You don't have to do it every time, but if you go once, you can definitely catch on to the energy that is the W. And it's just a really fun environment. And I'm really grateful to have played for a franchisee.

a franchise that certainly upholds the energy that we experience when we're playing on the court every night. What do you think people like me are missing when we have interviews or conversations like this? Like, what do you wish people would focus on? You know, I always kind of leave a platform open because I'm always just very grateful when anyone uses their platform to highlight women in sport. And of course, you know, I'm biased at WNBA.

But I think amplifying is always very important. So understanding that you have a platform to share, not just the discrepancies that we're experiencing, but celebrating the things that are going well, dispelling stigmas and stereotypes, because there's a lot of those out there and not just in women in sports and the WNBA, but in so many different things that people can relate to.

And just highlighting the fact that it's not hard to be a sports fan. So I'm not sure why people consider it rocket science once you throw a women's sports fan into it, because we see it happening everywhere. And it just takes people getting outside of themselves and being open to so many different aspects of sports that

That can really help grow so much that we're experiencing in society and culture today. We follow the money trail, of course, around here. And we say all the time that using your wallet to vote about your values or what's important is top of mind here and in so many other conversations. So we ask our

guests to close our interviews with a tip listeners can take straight to the bank. Do you have one like anything tip on investing, saving, budgeting, leadership, negotiating? Oh, this is good. Something that I've always been told growing up is figure out a way for your money to make money. And I know that that's something that a lot of people hear. And it feels really big.

But there's different ways that you can put your money somewhere and it can grow. You can find advisement that can help you do that. And also asking questions and asking others about how they do things is very important. Money is very daunting and there's already a narrative around losing it and not having enough. And understanding how you can make it grow is very important. But I would have to say that my biggest tip

is for women in the workplace, for women making money. I think salary transparency is very important and not everyone is comfortable with that. And maybe not everyone has the best of intentions in sharing that type of information, but that's the only way that we won't continue to exist in what feels like us getting the go around.

We're going to continue to exist in a space much smaller than what is truly available to us if we're not all honest to each other when appropriate about how much we're making so that the next person can understand how they can negotiate for themselves. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes.

Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.

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