He wanted to maintain his private life and avoid changing his lifestyle, which involved juggling multiple women.
Autopsy results showed no soot in her airways and normal carbon monoxide levels, indicating she died before the fire. Strangulation marks were also found.
They were relieved but still pained, as no punishment could bring Melissa and her unborn child back.
Matthew Plody killed Melissa because he didn't want to be a father and wanted to keep his lifestyle and multiple relationships intact.
It implied that he had a limited time to act before Melissa gave birth, suggesting premeditation.
They called an independent inspector who disputed the arson findings and argued for an undetermined cause of the fire.
He was found guilty of first-degree murder, the intentional homicide of an unborn child, and arson, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
They donated to shelters, sponsored a tree in her memory, and took actions to keep her spirit alive in their community.
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and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com slash 48 hours. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. On November 25th, 2020, it was the day before Thanksgiving. I received a phone call shortly after four o'clock from the Mount Morris police chief. And he asked me kind of frantically, is anybody at my house? And I said, my daughter Melissa is.
And so there's a fire. And it's bad. My sister Melissa, she was nine months pregnant. About to have a baby in two days. What do you remember from November 25th, 2020? It was my 17th birthday. My birthday is November 25th. Me and my mom were at a store. We were picking out a cake. And we finally got home. And my brother Carl frantically is calling my mom. Have you heard from Melissa? Have you heard from Melissa?
And we're like, "No, why?" Carl said, "The neighbor called, and he said the house is on fire." So at that point, my heart just sank because we were not sure if Melissa was home or not. I just wanted them both to be okay. And all I could think was, "Please just have one of them, at least one of them, make it through the night."
When everyone said they didn't know where she was and they couldn't hear from her, I knew. I knew. Just had that gut feeling that she was gone. For a huge tragedy like that to occur the day before Thanksgiving, on Julia's birthday, right before the baby was to be born, it was just so much.
When I arrived at the scene, I was told the victim was found laying on the floor in front of the stove. Melissa Lamish was a 27-year-old EMT. We're trying to figure out why there's a fire in the kitchen. We couldn't tell if it was intentional or accidental. There was all kinds of possibilities running through our heads, but we didn't know what happened to her. My daughter, Melissa, she's very thoughtful, and that's why she got into being a paramedic. She wanted to help people.
When Melissa first told me she was pregnant, she told me a couple things about the dad. Matt Plody. They on and off hung out for years and had a similar clique of friends. Matt Plody was a firefighter paramedic. He was a good firefighter. Matt was somebody that was dependable on the fire scene. He was just one of the guys. He was keeping a secret, the fact that he fathered a baby in the hopes that
the child wouldn't be born. - For Matt, he never had a child before. He didn't want to make it known to other people because he just wanted to keep that part of his life private. - Matthew Plote was a person of interest on day one, simply because he was at the scene. - Matthew Plote later told investigators that he was at the house to see Melissa to talk about the baby.
He admitted he was there. He told them everything that they would have needed to know about his presence there. He didn't have anything to hide. They discussed their finances, and then Matt left as she was making some lunch. I believe from the very beginning he was trying to set up a story that there was an accidental house fire, that she had been cooking something, which would explain why her body was found in the kitchen.
When you got the call about Matthew Plody possibly being involved in a murder, what did you think? Denial that it wasn't one of our people. It doesn't chime with what a firefighter is. We put fires out. We don't start fires. We help people. We don't hurt people. It is unthinkable. Nikki Batiste reports The Firefighter's Secret.
Before the fire that set Melissa Lamish's home ablaze on November 25th, 2020, the day had started with excited anticipation. Melissa was due to give birth to a baby boy in just two days, and Thanksgiving was a day away. She was going to have a nice private Thanksgiving with Dad. So I gave her a call the morning of the 25th, and we talked for about two and a half hours.
Cassie Ball and her sister Melissa had lots to chat about. We talked a lot about the future. We talked about what was going to come with the baby. The conversation ended because she looked outside the window. She said, you've got to be kidding me. She's like, he's freaking here again. I told him he's got to stop doing this. At the door was 33-year-old Matthew Plody, the expectant father of Melissa's baby. She said, I'll tell you what he wanted. I'll give you a call right back. Bye. Hung up.
Does she ever call back? No, my sister never called back.
Melissa Lamish and Matthew Plody met and became friends seven years earlier while each was in college. They maintained a casual relationship. The friendship, says the Lamish family, cooled off once Melissa let Matthew know about the pregnancy. Melissa told her family he did not share her interest in becoming a parent. He wanted her to get an abortion. She didn't want that. He blamed her, ghosted her. It did come to upset Melissa because they were friends for so long.
She thought he'd at least want to be involved a little bit. Yes. And also thought that he would want something to do with the baby. To that point, she thought he was a pretty nice guy. Then she saw a different side of him and that really upset her. Deanna and Gus were fully prepared to help their daughter with whatever she needed for the baby. I had said, if he doesn't want to be a part of the baby's life, you know, don't push.
The baby is your child. I told her, whatever you needed, I'll help you financially. She knew she had plenty of family support. Everything would have been fine. The Lamish family was a large one. Melissa had four siblings. She was already an aunt and was known for following her own path. Melissa was unapologetically herself, and that is what she was. She's the perfect mix of sugar and spice. Not too spicy, not too sugary, just perfect.
Melissa was strong. She was fierce. She was a go-getter. Melissa liked to reinvent herself through hairstyles and careers. Most recently, the 27-year-old had been working as an EMT. Melissa kind of fell into the line of work. She had an experience in college that took her to an emergency room, and she really appreciated how she was treated, and she wanted to do the same for other people. You're proud? Yes.
It was her job, and she took it seriously. As her due date neared, Melissa had to stop working. To make things easier, she moved into her childhood home with her dad. Her parents had divorced several years earlier. Melissa grew increasingly excited about becoming a mom, even though she and Matthew had little contact. Melissa would continue to send him sonograms or when things would happen, because sometimes he would respond a little bit.
But she didn't know really where he stood exactly, but Melissa wanted her baby to have the option of having the mother and the father. So she kept the communication with him. He often shut down. Matthew wasn't just shutting out Melissa. He kept the fact he was going to be a father a secret, including from his co-workers and Chief Rob Schultz at the Carroll Stream Fire District, several counties away from Melissa's home.
We're here 24 hours a day, and it's just a normal course of being a firefighter in that you talk about your family, your personal life, and what's going on, good, bad, or indifferent. I knew Matt as a single guy that didn't have any kids. Even Matthew's own parents did not know about the pregnancy until Melissa told them.
Melissa wanted them to have the opportunity to be part of their grandchild's life. How did Melissa say his parents responded to the news of a grandson? Melissa said that his parents were very nice, that they said, let me know what you need. I'll help you any way we can. How did Matthew find out that Melissa had told his parents they were having a baby? I believe that...
The parents then approached him, but it was not long after that that she had said, he's mad I told them. Because he had kept it a secret? Yeah. Melissa celebrated the upcoming birth with family and friends at a baby shower. She had let everyone know she was having a boy. It was a happy time, until nearly two months later on that fateful Thanksgiving Eve.
It was just all so surreal. While Melissa's family tried to process their loss, investigators were hoping to provide them with answers about what had happened. The fire debris is everywhere. Brian Ketter, then the lead detective at the Ogle County Sheriff's Office, headed to the kitchen where Melissa had been found. Everything's covered in smoke. Ceilings, walls have fallen down.
And everything's a mess. Ketter and other investigators also headed outside to an ambulance to view Melissa. We've noticed that she didn't have a whole lot of fire damage to her. What does that say? That the fire didn't kill her.
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What are you looking for? Where the greatest damage is at, where the fire patterns are at. We're looking at everything and everything in this picture that may have something to do with the origin of the fire. Where do you think the fire started? I believe the fire is over here. Actually, it's in these cabinets, where these cabinets used to be above the stove area.
But when Poole examined the stove, thinking that perhaps cooking flames caused the cabinets to catch fire, he saw that neither the oven nor the burners had been turned on. All the controls are in the off position, and there is no fire damage in the interior of this oven to show that this was some type of cooking fire.
Poole also did not find any electrical issues. So we're starting to run out of accidental causes. And we could identify at least three very simple and easy ways to exit this residence. Much of the house besides the kitchen remained accessible, so Poole thought Melissa could have found a way out. It was what I would call a survivable fire. This young lady was a paramedic.
She's used to dealing with emergencies. For her to totally lose her perspective and stand there and try and fight that fire. When you start putting all these things together, then you start coming up with, "Okay, this makes no sense." While Poole was inspecting the house, investigators talked with the Lamish family. Ketter learned about the phone call that day between Melissa and Cassie that Melissa ended when Matthew Plote arrived at the house.
We learned from the family that he was a fireman. Melissa's brother, Carl, told investigators he had already spoken on the phone to Plody, telling him he knew he had been at the house that day. Carl also told Plody about the fire and that someone had died, but not that it was Melissa. Investigators did that when they asked Plody to come in for an interview that evening.
As you watched his interview, what did you think about his demeanor, his responses? Emotionless. Very soft-spoken. Matthew said he went to talk to Melissa. He wanted to talk about money, about being allowed at the hospital when she was set to be induced in two days, and that's why he was there. In that interview, Matthew made a reference to a deadline when explaining his decision to go to the house that day. There's a deadline for that, so we were...
It was a phrase that investigators didn't quite know how to interpret. Was Matthew a suspect at that point? No, he was not a suspect. What are the next steps in the investigation? We need to determine the cause of death. We don't know if Melissa had a medical episode or if somebody did something to her or if the carbon monoxide from the fire killed her. We don't know.
To get those answers, two autopsies would be performed. One, two days after Melissa's death, and then another, about two weeks later, while lab work was completed. The results? Normal carbon monoxide levels and no soot was found in her system. What was found was evidence of strangulation, including hemorrhages around her neck. Melissa, it was determined, had been murdered.
We have to plan a funeral, and while we were still waiting for things, it was nearly three weeks. On December 14, 2020, the Lamish family held a funeral for Melissa and her unborn baby, who Melissa was going to name Barrett. We didn't get to kiss his forehead, touch his cheek. The first time we got any kind of contact, they were in a casket.
And the first time I touched his hand, I just remember gasping. And I had decided I was going to keep holding his hand. Something Melissa didn't get to do. Melissa's family was convinced that Matthew Clody was responsible for their profound grief that he killed Melissa simply because he did not want to become a father. Matthew, investigators would learn, had been juggling multiple women in his life.
I believe he did it because he's selfish and it was going to change his life having a child. Melissa wasn't asking him for anything. No money, nothing. He could have walked away, so why? I think it was his pride. He wanted to keep it a secret. With no other suspects and with Matthew admitting to being at Melissa's home that day, investigators were also circling in on Plody but were still gathering evidence.
We had collected DNA evidence at the autopsy and we sent that to the crime lab. We'd gotten search warrants for phone records. We were in the process of getting that information back.
They were also waiting to get information back from Amazon about possible recordings from an Echo Dot that Ketter had noticed and was retrieved from the fire-damaged kitchen. We were hoping it would record conversations or something from the day between the two of them. That Amazon Echo Dot could turn this case around. Could have. It could have recorded Melissa screaming for help, yelling out his name. We didn't know what it would be.
I was contacted by our police chief to give him a call immediately that he had something very important, sensitive to talk about. When Carroll Stream Fire Chief Rob Schultz returned the call, he couldn't believe what he was hearing. One of our firefighters was being investigated and a suspect in a murder that occurred about two hours from our fire district's boundaries.
It was now nine months since Melissa Lamish's death in a house fire that had sent shockwaves through the community and Mount Morris, where her home was located. But firefighters where Matthew Plody worked in Carroll Stream, about 75 miles away, were unaware of the fire. Plody had said nothing. When you heard the name Matthew Plody in that call, what did you think? I was, you know, there's no way this could be Matt. They have something wrong here.
But that disbelief started to change when Chief Schultz checked to see if Plody worked the day of the fire and learned he had called out sick. The knot in my stomach, like, literally wanted to throw up. The fire chief's sinking feeling only got worse when he learned that investigators believed Matthew killed Melissa and their unborn child because he did not want to be a father, and then set the house on fire in hopes of destroying evidence.
We had placed Matt immediately on paid administrative leave. When I called Matt in to tell him, I just said, I'm being told that you're under investigation for a murder of your estranged girlfriend and the baby that your father-in-law. Did you ask him why he hadn't mentioned it? Didn't feel that it was something that he wanted to talk about. And he felt it was personal matter and didn't want to disclose it.
While on leave on August 28, 2021, Matthew Plody was called in again for questioning. My name is Brian. I'm a lieutenant with the sheriff's office. Plody willingly appeared without an attorney. I want to contribute to the...
Over the course of the seven-hour interview, he explained to investigators why he was at Melissa's the day of the fire. We talked about, you know, what I could pay her. And we just said we'd work it out later to visiting her.
He said when he left that afternoon, Melissa was talking about making lunch. Most of the seven hours was filled with investigators asking questions and Matthew Plody saying very little. So did you go there to kill her?
Or did you just go there to talk to her and something happened? We kept accusing him of things, and he never said, I didn't do it. He never said, you guys got the wrong person. He was just emotionless, and he wouldn't communicate. Not once in seven hours, not once did he get upset. Most people would have told us, I'm done. But he just sat and listened to us. Had you ever experienced an interview like that before? Never. It wasn't just the lack of communication that made Lieutenant Ketter think Plody was guilty.
But on the rare times Plody did talk, the unusual way he phrased things. Did you intend to kill her? During that seven-hour interview, at one point, Matthew did say, I had no intentions of hurting Melissa. Did that make you do a double take? Yes, because in our opinion, that means I hurt Melissa, but I didn't intend to do it. But it was not an admission of guilt.
So Ketter wanted to see if Plody would say anything more and made an unusual request of Fire Chief Schultz.
We asked Chief Schultz if he would wear a listening device so that he would have a conversation with Matthew. We would be able to hear it and record it and try to gain some evidence that way. When Brian asks this of me, I'm pretty taken aback. And initially I had said no way, and I did some thinking about it and called him back and said yes. You have a lot of responsibilities as a fire chief, but I can't imagine you ever thought wearing a wiretap would be one of them. No.
I don't freely talk about it. It's not something that I'm proud of. It was something that needed to be done in the hopes of helping the investigation. There's a grieving family out there that's looking for answers. And so on September 9th, 2021, Chief Schultz called Matthew Plotey and asked him to come in to talk. And he agreed. He says, I'd like to come talk to you. Matthew came in later that day.
The fire station was quickly cleared of all other personnel, and Brian Ketter and other investigators headed over. They were able to place a device that just recorded audio on a phone on Fire Chief Schultz's desk and listened in from outside the fire station and from an adjoining office. How are you feeling? Nervous. Very nervous. A bit scared.
Chief Schultz tried to learn what happened to Melissa by appealing to Plody on a personal level. I'm trying to find answers. I'm trying to help you. Help me. Help me walk through, I mean, what happened. But the nearly two-hour conversation yielded very little info from Plody, with him again barely speaking about the day Melissa died. I remember saying, fill in all the blanks for me. And isn't it odd that no one here knows that you're going to be a father? Like, that's...
That's something we celebrate here. What do you say? Nothing. Head was down a lot of the conversation. Did he ever say, "I didn't kill Melissa and my baby"? He did not. With none of the interviews resulting in a confession, there was still no arrest, something that exasperated the Lamish family. Oh, it was excruciating. I mean, we were pestering the police constantly.
There were several reasons for the delay. There was the wait for the fire marshal's report, which concluded that the fire cause is most likely incendiary in nature, possibly the result of a fire being intentionally set in an effort to conceal a potential homicide.
And getting information from Amazon on whether Matthew's voice was recorded on that Echo Dot they retrieved from the kitchen took time. It did reveal voices, but nothing that proved helpful for our case. It wasn't even on the day of the murder. Investigators had also waited to obtain Matthew Plody's DNA until after the August 2021 interview, hoping he would first confess to killing Melissa.
We got the results back saying that it was his DNA under her fingernails. Turn around. Hands behind your back. On March 9th, 2022, after a year and a half of investigating Melissa Lamish's death, with a police body cam rolling, Matthew Potey was arrested on charges including murder, the intentional homicide of an unborn child, and arson. Technically, right now, you are under arrest. The motive that the state painted was just
an inaccurate portrayal of Matt. By the time of Matthew Plody's arrest, he had hired attorney John Kupp. They painted him to be this monster that, at the drop of a hat, after a career of saving people, decided to suddenly start killing people. You were indicted by the grand jury. The evidence doesn't show that Matthew Plody murdered Melissa Lamish or their own bone child. ♪♪
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Assistant state's attorneys Allison Huntley and Heather Cruz were part of the team prosecuting Matthew Plote. All signs pointed toward Matthew Plote from the very beginning. What we wanted to portray to the jury is that he was a guy saving lives for his entire career.
Defense attorneys John Cupp and Liam Dixon say their client was misunderstood and as a firefighter was a responsible person, not a murderer. Matt's plan was to financially support her. He had offered her money before. His plan was to be there. Matthew Plody pleaded not guilty to all charges.
On March 18, 2024, more than three years since Melissa's murder, his trial began in Ogle County, Illinois. The prosecution argued that Plody murdered Melissa and their unborn child because he didn't want to be a father. He was keeping a secret the fact that he fathered a baby in the hopes that the child wouldn't be born.
The defense told the jury there's no evidence Plody harmed Melissa and that he had gone to see her that day just to talk. They discussed their finances. They discussed what would happen with the birth of the child. And then Matt left as she was making some lunch. I believe from the very beginning he was trying to set up a story that there was an accidental house fire, that she had been cooking something. I believe that was how he laid out the scene.
which would explain why her body was found in the kitchen. Prosecutors called fire investigator Michael Poole to testify about his findings. He told the court that he found no evidence of an electrical or cooking fire. And you start ruling these various different things out. How certain are you that this fire was intentionally set? I'm certain that it was intentionally set. No doubt? No doubt.
During cross-examination, the defense suggested that Michael Pohl was unsure of his findings, citing language in his report such as "most likely" and "it is believed." You use the phrase "it is believed" because that's an uncertain opinion, correct? It's just the way I describe it. But that's an uncertain opinion, correct? Not to me.
Poole says he was just using standard terms used during fire investigations. The state also called forensic pathologist Dr. Amanda Eumanns, who had performed one of the autopsies. There was no soot in her airways. And her measure of carbon monoxide in the blood was within normal limits. So she was deceased prior to the fire.
Dr. Eumanns testified that Melissa's body showed evidence of a violent struggle. The jury heard about the hemorrhages around Melissa's neck, a specific type of broken blood vessels called petechial hemorrhages, which according to Dr. Eumanns is a telltale sign of strangulation. This is the most petechial hemorrhages I've ever seen in a strangulation case. To sit through trial was beyond devastating. Deanna Lamish came to court every day.
Deanna says she always kept Melissa and her baby Barrett in her thoughts. Matthew Plody's parents also attended the trial. Yes, every court date.
One of the most important witnesses to testify was Melissa's sister Cassie, talking about the day Melissa died and that call, which Cassie says was interrupted by Matthew Plotey. What was the last thing your sister said to you during that phone call? Sorry. She said she'd make the conversation quick and she'd call me right back. Did Melissa call you back? No.
Jurors watched those recorded interviews with investigators, where Matthew Plody admitted he was at the house. Prosecutors wanted jurors to hear that phrase Plody used, referring to the birth of his son as a deadline. He said,
There's a deadline to these kinds of things. That was his deadline to murder Melissa. If you think about it logically, Thursday is Thanksgiving and Friday is her due date, his deadline. The only time to do this was Wednesday. So he took off work and completed his goal. The prosecutors found even more telling what Plody didn't say, especially during that seven-hour interview, four hours of which were played for the jury.
What is chilling is the fact that he never denied murdering Melissa, and he never denied killing her baby boy. Not one time. It's chilling from a personal perspective, but that's also excellent evidence that the defendant couldn't bring himself to lie about that fact. Over the course of multiple interviews for several hours, he was calm and reserved.
His silence, defense says, actually points to his innocence, not his guilt. He had a right to remain silent, but the police are allowed to continue to poke and prod and try to get him confused, and he just didn't buy into any of that. They say their client, when he did speak, was open with investigators. He told them...
Everything about his presence there, he didn't hide any of that. He just never admitted what they wanted him to admit, which was that he killed Melissa and his child, which he didn't do. Do you think the fact that the fire didn't burn down the whole house, does that play in Matthew's favor or not? I believe it does. If he's a firefighter and he's trying to destroy evidence, you would think he would have the ability to set a fire to complete that goal.
But during three days of testimony, the state laid out the case that it could have only been Matthew Plody who set that fire to conceal evidence of the murder of Melissa and their unborn baby, something the defense was about to contest. The state's fire expert deemed that this was arson. He did, so we had an expert who directly contradicted that. What do you think of Matthew Plody's interview with investigators? Join the conversation on Facebook and X.
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The state's expert didn't do a fraction of what he should have done to properly determine the cause of the fire. This should have been an undetermined fire. To try to poke holes in the prosecution's case, the defense called only one witness, retired firefighter and independent inspector John Knapp. He was not at the scene of the fire, but did study reports and photos.
I felt like there was probably more information that could have been gathered that wasn't there. He disputed the prosecution's claim that Plody set the fire. He testified that the evidence collected doesn't prove that the fire was intentionally set by anyone. I couldn't make that determination to whether or not what the cost of the fire should be other than that determination. When you're not there at the scene, you don't see what we've seen.
Not always does every little tidbit end up in a report. Michael Poole says the defense's expert is wrong and that his investigation was thorough. We're looking for anything and everything that could have contributed to the origins of this fire. If they weren't there, you needed to be there when we were doing the examination.
Matthew Plody waived his right to testify. During closing arguments, the defense accused investigators of having tunnel vision. The complete lack
of investigation of any other individual is shocking. I've never seen such a poorly investigated case. They didn't follow up on any other leads that may have happened, any other boyfriends, any other, anybody else. If there had been another lead, investigators certainly would have followed it. There simply wasn't.
Prosecutors told the jury that the evidence was clear. Melissa Lamish was strangled to death by the only person who had a motive to kill her, Matthew Plody, who was juggling multiple women and didn't want to change his lifestyle. He clearly did not want to be involved in this baby's life. This is someone who actively hid the fact that a woman in the community was carrying his child.
He clearly had made some choices about having multiple relationships, but did not make him a killer. The trial lasted a week, and after two hours of deliberation, the jury returned with a verdict. We, the jury, find the defendant, Matthew Plotiv, guilty of first-degree murder. Guilty of all charges. I could hear people sobbing and gasping, but, like, I couldn't even lift my head. What did you feel? Shock.
The verdict was a relief for Chief Robert Schultz. He says the case had long weighed on him and everyone at the firehouse who had worked with Plody. There was a huge closure here when Pat was found guilty. You still have the family out there that lost a daughter or lost a grandson. You're never going to change that. Three months later, on June 27, 2024, Melissa's family and friends gathered at the courthouse for sentencing.
Matthew Plody listened with little reaction as victim impact statements were read. We lost Melissa in the prime of her life. Melissa and Barrett should still be alive and enjoying life with their loving family. I shouldn't have spent Thanksgiving that year feeling like there was nothing to be thankful for. This shouldn't be real, but it is real. It is all real because one man decided to make the decision that Barrett and Melissa weren't needed or wanted. None of this had to happen. All he had to do was walk away.
Matthew Plody also addressed the court with this brief statement. Do you believe him? No, definitely not. For him to say, "I, too, have pain and loss from Wilson Barrett," like, what a joke. The judge imposed the maximum sentence.
Mr. Ploty, you are sentenced to a natural life imprisonment. Life behind bars. Matthew Ploty will likely die in prison. Does that give you any sort of peace? I know it's the justice system and we received our justice, but nothing about this is just. It's not fair. Nothing about this is fair. No punishment in the world brings them back. I miss her personality.
I think it's her sass. Melissa's sister, Julia Lynn, tries to hold on to fond memories. Melissa was, I believe still is, the best person that I've ever met. What do you miss most about your daughter? And there's a grandson you never got to meet. Where do you start? I mean, he was going to come into my home. I was looking forward to raising him.
Through all of their grief, the Lamish family honors Melissa in many ways. We took toys to a local homeless shelter. To honor Barrett? To honor Barrett. We donated money to the no-kill shelter that Melissa got her cat from.
They also sponsored a tree at a local arboretum that Melissa loved. Every year at the holidays, this tree will always be lit as part of their display. Shining brightly like Melissa always did. She was so strong. She was fierce. She was powerful. Nothing was going to stop her, and she was always going to prove herself, and she'd do whatever it'd take to do it. Matthew Plody is appealing his convictions.
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It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harboured a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reached the age of 10 that would still have urged it. It just happens to all of them.
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