Oikology (DECLUTTERING) Encore with Jamie & Filip Hord + Joe Ferrari
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Oh, hey, it's the poppy seed bagels you've been enjoying more lately because it doesn't matter now if you have seeds in your teeth. Allie Ward, back with another episode of Ologies. All right, here we go. This is an encore presentation of an episode that I liked very, very much. Three guests, big deal. And if you're wondering why an encore, Ward, I had pretty major surgery last week. About a week ago, I had to go in for a planned abdominal surgery, if you will. And I had to go in for a planned abdominal surgery.

And I'll tell you all about it in an upcoming Field Trip episode I'm working on. But I'm doing okay. It's a good thing I had it. And I'm on essentially doctor-ordered rest. So I'm chilling pretty hard. And I wanted to serve this one up because I think it's timely and also because this episode changed my life in numerous ways. I no longer have a junk drawer. We'll talk about it. Also, at the end of the episode, I'll give you a new secret. Okay.

A beautiful, calming, aesthetically pleasing, orderly episode of Ologies. We all need this one. This one will transform our lives. It's going to renew our spirit. It'll be challenging and cathartic and gutting and sentimental, but soothing and will usher in a new era. It's going to be dusty.

It's going to be broken, but it's going to end up organized. This one will make you throw out your stained pajamas your ex's mom gave you for Hanukkah. This one has been waiting for you, and it's here. You're here. But first, let's thank the folks who make it happen, like everyone at patreon.com slash ologies who spends a dollar or more a month to submit questions and make the show happen. Thanks to everyone who's wearing ologiesmerch.com stuff and who rates the show and subscribes to keep it up in the science charts. And of course, the folks who leave reviews.

I promise to read them all. And I do. And as proof, I pick a new one. And this week, thank you to Inheriton. First time listener. First time reviewer, they say. They wrote, after digesting a few episodes and hearing that people in scientific fields talk like me, which I think is normal, it's inspired me to enroll back in school and eventually get a degree in geobiology. I love bar work, but this podcast made me miss my first love, learning. Inheriton, yes.

That's amazing. As someone else who lived on tips from behind a bar for many years and missed learning, that makes a whole damn day. Hell yeah. Boy, howdy. Okay. So, oikology. Let's unpack this, shall we? Oikology, it's an obscure but real word. It comes from

oikos, the Greek for home or the place where one lives, and it means the science of housekeeping. And in this episode, we dipped in to chat with not one, but three oikologists. Now, the first two are a married pair of professional organizers who work and live in Manhattan. And as soon as I came across their name, I fell down a gleaming, inspiring rabbit hole that is their Instagram, and I begged them to talk to me. And the third

is Enology's encore, a returning guest who I roped into chatting because he happens to be one of the leaders in research on the topic of clutter. Indeed. So we cover causes of clutter, its psychological effects,

mess and gender, ADHD, anxiety and depression, indecision, KonMari and other methods, when to DIY and when calling in a pro might be your next step. Virtual organizing. How many pants is too many pants?

the areas of the house that collect the most clutter, unneeded gifts, how to step-by-step conquer the monster in the closet, which is made of stuff that you don't need. Also, a dispatch from the front lines of my own battle and the results of the advice that I shamelessly gleaned from these interviews. So roll up your sleeves and get pumped for the wisdom and research of Dr. Joseph Ferrari and fellow oikologists of Hoarderly, Jamie and Philip Hoard. You heard that right. ♪

I just have one headphone on each ear. So here's how I found out about you guys. I was just going through a magazine, having a nice leisurely read, and I came across this article about organization and I saw a mention of your company, Hoarderly. And then I realized that was your last name. And I'm so sorry that you get this question probably every single day, but you are declutterers with the last name Hoarderly.

Is that related at all? Well, you know, when we came up with it, we like to think of the word orderly more as in orderly. Orderly. Rather than like hoarder. So that was actually one of our worries when we first came up with the name, which it didn't take us long to come up with the name. But that was one of our worries. But our clientele did kind of...

stray the other way. So Jamie says that they specialize in clutter and organization, but their clientele tend not to be folks who hoard. Laura Kasich on the hoard. I mean, we work with each other, but we work with hoards, just not the hoarding type necessarily. But we still have clients that maybe have hoarding tendencies and have issues that way. So decluttering is definitely our...

our specialty and yeah, it works out. It's uh, the name helps quite a bit. Philip likes to say I married him for his last name. It's just the timing worked out perfectly. We got married like I think a month before Jamie kind of founded and orderly and decided that she wanted to be a professional organizer. So, well, it's kind of a beautiful moment because when you, when you look at the name and you realize, Oh,

Oh, orderly. I'm looking at the word orderly. That's so exciting. You'd be surprised how many clients we get just because they're like, I really just like decided on you guys because I liked your name. Like how about with your last name? Brandy Nguyen. Yeah, Brandy. It's perfect. You know, I don't know if you know this, but there is an ology. It's called oikology and it is the study of households orderliness. Did you know that?

I learned that from Allie. From you. Yeah, we learned that from the initial email, but it's definitely interesting. We're going to have to start using it. Yeah. And your Instagram is goals. It's just gorgeous. So if you need some inspiration of what a closet or a pantry can look like, they're instagram.com slash orderly. It's just tasty.

It's so nice. And for another hashtag that can calm an anxious brain, look up hashtag knolling. It's K-N-O-L-L-I-N-G. This is when you take objects like everything in your purse or a drawer and you arrange them in an orderly fashion at right angles and then take an overhead photo of

Oh, it's like chaos calmed. And Noling was coined, side note, in 1987 by Andrew Cremello, who was a janitor in a furniture shop. And he called it that after the designer Knoll, whose furniture is very right angular. So yes, hashtag Noling, which is beautiful, but unrelated to Jamie and Philip's Instagram, instagram.com slash hoarderly. Those are real clients too. That's the thing that people really like about our, I guess, our Instagram is because it

It's very real. And like, it's not necessarily minimalist. Like we don't really believe in getting rid of everything, you know, and living extremely minimal, but it's real people, real clients, real closets, real kitchens. So that's kind of the, the,

Like you said, it's goals, but it's achievable goals. Tell me a little bit about your backstory. I understand, Jamie, that you're a little bit type A, perhaps? Just a little. Perhaps always a little orderly, right? Yes, yes. So you could even say, I don't know, you could say I was born this way or I definitely grew up this way. Very neat freak, organized. And I didn't necessarily...

realize this myself until really until like people started saying like pointing it out and saying like you're so organized my first idea of of

was someone said, I remind them of Marie Kondo. And I was like, who's Marie Kondo? So that was kind of my first inspiration of all of this. I'm so excited because I love this. And then, so I started organizing on the side of a full-time job.

I was working a nine to five Monday through Friday. So I would organize after work. So in the evenings and on weekends, and then it wasn't until I, I really started working with these clients and realizing the way the, I was, I was learning more about myself when I first started because I didn't realize I thought, you know, not everyone thinks,

thinks the same way that I do, you know, about a space or about stuff. If we hadn't been dating for 10 years and I told her how she was many times, working with clients definitely brought it to light. Jamie says that part of becoming a professional organizer means learning not just what works for her, but what works for each client. So different folks might like different levels or types of order.

And Philip, what's your style like? Are you more freeform?

Yeah, I'm just a regular Joe. I'm a collector. Jamie would call me a collector. I am not a professional organizer by true. Like I wasn't born this way. I'm more of a professional talker than a professional organizer. I'm kind of all over the place and she is very particular. And, uh, but it's, but it's something people can learn. And that's why we're so, that's why we love explaining our story because it's,

for the way I would have been without Jamie was very messy, but with Jamie as the way that she is and what she's taught me, I'm an extremely organized person now. Like I'm very, even particular, I'd say it's kind of not only rubbed off on me, but it shows that it's definitely learnable. And that's kind of what we teach our clients. But no, I've learned to love organizing and being organized.

He's living proof for sure. I liked it. A lot of clients don't believe their husbands can get on board with it. And I'm like, listen, it can happen. I promise. Do you think that there are any gender differences or having done this professionally? Do you see that that women tend to be more organized or just in couples that one person is more organized than the other?

Not necessarily. You know, within a couple, there's usually one person that's a little more organized, right? But when it comes to gender, it could go either way. I feel like a lot of your finance guys, like the husbands, seem extremely organized sometimes. Or maybe not organized, but very particular. Like, don't touch my ties. I know exactly where every single one of them are. It's usually...

One way or the other, you know, typically one person's very organized and one person's not, or they think that they're organized. A lot of our, a lot of people think that they're organized, um, which is completely fine. That, that means that it's half the battle for us. Like, okay, well all I have to do is really, um,

put in the right systems, and then you'll keep it maintained. Let's take a little detour from New York to Chicago, where one Dr. Joseph Ferrari is doing academic research on the topic of clutter. Okay, hello. Hello. There you are.

So you may be familiar with his voice and his other area of expertise. You met this charismatic DePaul University professor in the Volitional Psychology episode on procrastination, wherein I learned I'm a proc and that done is better than perfect. Now, perhaps after that episode, you purchased his book, Still Procrastinating, which has a permanent residence on my nightstand when I need a pep talk.

Anyway, when I interviewed Dr. Ferrari in February, he mentioned he was also researching clutter. So, of course, I got him on the horn. Now, his colleague is Dr. Catherine Roster, a consumer psychologist and industrial organizational psychologist at University of New Mexico. They partner with ICD, the Institute for Challenging Disorganization, and NAPO, the National Association of Professional Organizers, to which Jamie, of course, belongs.

belongs. Now, the hordes say that more women reach out for organizational help than men. So I asked Dr. Ferrari, is one gender neater than the others? Is there a gender difference in clutter? Yes. Now, this I can answer, no.

Now, let me tell you what made me prompt to explore that question. When Dr. Roster and I did our national study with clutterers, we had over 2,000 people who responded to our national survey on clutter. Out of that study, we found only 50 men answered the study. Oh.

So the first question I asked the experts, is this a gender thing? Is it that women don't have the clutter problem and men don't? And the experts, the ICD experts said, oh, no, no, no, no. Men have clutter problem, but men don't view it as clutter. Men view it as my toys, my stuff.

Yep. I have a lot of these baseball knickknack thing of this stuff. It's not clutter. It's my toy. It's part of my man cave. Women see it as, and to me, that's fascinating. I think your listeners would like to know that there's a gender difference in how it's perceived, not gender difference in how it exists. Women are more likely to go for treatment to make that phone call, email message to the declutterer expert than the man.

to deal with it. I also asked Dr. Ferrari, why? Why? Why? Why, why, why, why, why clutter? Why do you exist? Entropy and chaos are the ways of the universe, but why can't we have better control over it?

I have a question about kind of cause and effect of clutter. Like, let's talk first about cause. Is it, you know, indecisive tendencies? Is it a lack of self-esteem? Like what's causing us to just not be able to open that closet and go through it? I'm talking about myself. Yeah.

Sure. Several different kinds of things. Indecision is one of those factors. You mentioned that. We published that. We found – and this is not surprising. This is logical. But it's the first time anybody's shown this, that indecisive people have a hard time getting rid of it because they don't know what to do with it. Do I keep it or not? Right. To be or not to be, as Hamlet would have said. Do I or don't I? Right.

Well, think of Yoda. Do or not do, there is no try. So either you get rid of it or you're not. But yes, indecision plays a role with people to do that. One of the major papers we published on home and clutter that got a lot of attention was we found an inverse relationship between life satisfaction and clutter. What does that mean? It means unhappiness.

The more clutter you had, the lower your sense of life satisfaction. The less satisfied you are with life. Wow. So I find that fascinating in our culture, our disposable culture that says, no, buy more, have more. You know, is this no, actually you're doing yourself? No.

I won't say harm, but you're actually hurting your image, your view of yourself. You're going to be less happy, is what I'm saying, the more you have. So I think indecision is one of the variables, one of the factors. And then there's the emotional attachment.

I can't get rid of it because it brings back this memory because it reminds me of that or this. It reminds me of the kid. Well, sure, your kid did lots of beautiful artwork when they were a kid and you've saved it all. Did you need to save it?

Which, of course, leads to the question, when is it hoarding, though? Now, since 2013, hoarding disorder, or HD, has been recognized as its own disorder by psychologists' Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, and it's classified under obsessive-compulsive and related disorders.

So a few symptoms are persistent difficulty discarding or parting with possessions regardless of their actual value. And it says this difficulty is due to a perceived need to save the items and to distress associated with discarding them. Now, a few studies have shown some improvement in hoarding disorder with medication, but

like paroxetine or Paxil may be promising, and the serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, or SNRI, then lefaxine or Effexor, showed a decrease in hoarding symptoms in 70% of participants, although the study was really small. Now, ADHD medications can also improve the focus needed to tackle the sometimes distressing process of accumulated stuff if it gets to the point of hoarding.

Now remember, clutter is not the same as hoarding. There's a number of people who have explored this topic. We see hoarders on TV. But hoarding is not the same as clutter. Clutter is not considered yet a psychological disorder.

The way I conceptualize this is think of your stuff and a hoarder will have a lot of the same thing. Toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper. So think of it as going...

vertically, right? Where clutter is just a lot of stuff, more horizontally, broadly. I've got too much paper, I've got too many knickknacks, I've got too many dishes, too many mugs. It's a broader kind of concept. So hoarders are clutterers,

But clutterers are not necessarily hoarders. Because there is a tipping point, I think, I think, from clutter to hoarding. There's a tipping point when it becomes too much. When is that tipping point, Dr. Ferrari? I can't tell you. We don't necessarily know. But there's a point where it becomes really interfering with the quality of your life. We find this in office clutter. A

A paper we have coming out this year looking at what impact does office clutter have on productivity when you're busy doing things. And it does impact. Now, there are people who say, no, no, no. I know what I've got. Well, it takes you longer to clutter, declutter, and to find that object than if you were organized. Right. Right.

I remember there was a famous industrial organizational psychology study done a number of years ago that found people will spend up to three hours a week finding things on their desk that's literally arm's length away. Oh. You know? So they don't wear...

Where are those keys? Where's that thing? Oh, where did I have that paper? It's there, but because the desk is so disorganized, they can't find it. Three hours a week lost on finding something that should be readily available. A graduate student of mine, Trina Dale, and I just published our master's thesis that looked at how it leads to less employee satisfaction the more office clutter you have. People are less satisfied with their jobs, less productive in their jobs as well.

So I think the overload and just having too much because it got out of hand is an issue. But, says Dr. Ferrari, like conquering addictions or starting a new diet, an individual can be led somewhere, but you can't make behavior happen. Sometimes we're just a bunch of unthirsty horses standing over a trough, pissing our loved ones off. I don't think we can force other people to go through it. They have to do it at their own time. You get what we call in psychology reactance effect.

What is that? Oh, it's called the oh, yeah. I'm from New York, as you know. So I call it the oh, yeah. So people are going to do something, but as soon as you pressure them to do it, they come back and go, oh, yeah, well, now we're not going to do it. It's called psychological reactance or sometimes called the oh, yeah effect. Oh, yeah, just because I'm not going to do it.

Well, it's one of the reasons, if I digress for a minute, why please don't posters don't work. It's the thank you for not posters. Oh, you're much more likely to get people to do things if you say thank you for it. Let's just take smoking because it's an obvious thing. Thank you for not smoking. People will say, oh, they'll put the cigarette out. But if you say, please don't smoke, people are likely to say, oh, yeah, I wasn't going to. But just because you're telling me I can't.

I'm going to do it now. The oh yeah effect. The oh yeah effect. So people don't want to do this. So anyway, you can't force people to declutter because then they'll come back and say, just for that I'm not going to do it. All right? How dare you? That kind of thing. Oh yeah. So we

have to let people do it at their own time, create settings that encourage them to do it, to go through the piles. And maybe get a little help. I think that's again where these decluttering experts can really step in and help us. They can teach us some tricks, some toys, some technique. I asked the experts, Philip and Jamie Hoard, when that is. What do you

What do you think is the tipping point where someone says, you know what, I need some help with this versus just, I'll look at some blog posts or I'll just drink four shots of espresso and put on some Lizzo and just do my best to power through. When does it become professional? It's usually that I tried to do a glass of wine with my girlfriend and we just ended up drinking the bottle of wine and never ended up doing it.

But I'd say tipping point of when people reach out is life events. It's when something's happening. It's either they're about to have a second child or they have a growing family or they're moving is a huge amount of people. Like I do not want to deal with boxes because last time I moved, there was 10 boxes that lived under the stairs for the whole time I lived in that apartment or that home.

So I'm not dealing with it. And then there's the clients that, you know, their high school or is going to college. So they're or they're downsizing. It's always like a life event. It's less so people that just hire us out of nowhere and less...

They've struck, you know, found out that professional organizing is a thing because of the mindful movement that is going through the world. Like it's a new type of mindfulness. Maybe they haven't had friends over in four years and because they're ashamed or such. Yeah. So getting organized is definitely the answer for a lot of people. Did the life changing magic work?

of tidying up, did that help your cause too? Because people started to realize like, oh, I can maybe find more peace or more calm or less anxiety by changing my environment. Like, hey, we can all live a little better. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was Marie Kondo's first book that

Yeah. Granted to my attention. So, yeah, definitely. I mean, the show came out, what, last January? And it was massive. We're very involved in partnership with the container store as well. And they said, like, their numbers, our numbers, our followers, our clientele. We had to quadruple our team. And it is life-changing. It is life-changing.

Our actual mission for Horderly is that we want to change our clients' lives through organizing. And it is very life-changing. And she definitely has her methods and where Horderly may be different and professional organizers may be different. I know that the book is even called Tidying Up, but it is not tidying. I mean, getting organized takes work and hours and days. It's the funny thing about the Marie Kondo show is that she checks in

and tells them what to do. And then it comes a month later. It's not because she's busy. Of course she is. But it's because it takes a month for this family to actually do the work. So Marie Kondo, an adored and now celebrity organizer from Japan, is a global icon of just excited, loving, and nonjudgmental organization and decluttering who has changed so many lives. And I asked Dr. Ferrari how her methods stack up to the academic research.

This concept that you may be hearing, touch it and see if it gives you joy. Keep it if it gives you joy is really a myth. It's really inaccurate. Oh, okay. And that's why I wanted to explain why is that inaccurate? Yeah. Okay. So touch it to see if you're going to keep it. Well,

What industrial organizational psychology, consumer psychologists will show you, like Dr. Roster have found, is that if you go to the store and you touch something in the store, you're much more likely to buy it and keep it. Oh, wow.

So this idea of touch it and see if it gives you joy, well, right there, you've biased yourself to keep it. So that's what the research shows. The ICD experts have said the same thing. What they've said, and I thought this was a good example, is that if you go to your closet, because there's three target areas I've learned where people have the most clutter. Okay. In the kitchen, in the closet.

And books. Oh, okay. These seem to be the big three areas. So what the ICD members say is you don't start going through and go and buy containers at the container store and start putting stuff in there. No, no, no. You organize first.

And you look and you see, my God, I've got 12 spatulas. They're really neat, 12 spatulas. Holy cow, there's 18 pairs of blue pants. Wow, I've got a dozen of that beige blouse. So what they want you to do is organize first.

And then you bring in the expert or a friend and have them touch the item and say, do you need this? Because if you organize and then touch it, you're more likely to keep it. Wow.

So I find that interesting. Yeah, we're told, touch it and see if it gives you joy. Well, the research and the experts in the field are saying, no, don't touch it. You're going to keep it. Now, let's look at the word joy. Touch it and give you joy.

When there was a national attention on all of this last year, the New York Times, USA Today, a bunch of newspapers contacted me and Dr. Roster because we have the only studies on home and clutter and said, hey, what do you think of this new campaign, these new Netflix shows and this other kind of thing? And I said, you know, I don't think joy is the right word.

Joy is not what's being talked about. Talking about happiness. Does it make you happy? And happiness is a very different emotion than joy. Really? Oh, yes. The victim of translation. So maybe have a friend or a pro hold things up for you instead. Also, I love Marie Kondo. I want to be her friend. I want to hug her for a prolonged period of time. Joy is a much deeper emotion.

The Christmas carol that we sing doesn't say let's have happiness to the world. It's joy to the world because there's a difference in that word. Joy is a deeper, much more stable. Happiness is a transient, if you would, temporary state emotion. It's not the same. And I was interviewed by a Japanese reporter.

And this reporter, I remember clearly saying, "You know, you're right. The translation of the word is not, 'Does it give you joy?' but, 'Does it give you happiness?'" Oh, wow. Oh, that's interesting. It's a translation error that's come up. And then this reporter said, "But," and I liked what they said, "Of course, joy will sell more books." Ah.

Okay, quick side note. So I looked this up and he's right in that the Japanese word Marie Kondo actually uses is tokimeku, which translates in English to flutter or throb or palpitate. Kind of like finding what gives you little butterflies. So does something spark visceral lepidoptera?

which is probably not going to move any books either. But her KonMari method advises you to hold or touch the item and then just feel if it gives you like an emotional boner or if it bums you out. And in looking this up, I learned that this is in part inspired by the Shinto religion in which organizing is a spiritual cleansing practice. Now, if you've ever heard that cleanliness is next to godliness, you can thank 1700s Methodist minister John Wesley for that little nugget

that everyone's elders may have uttered at some point. Just a little personal history. My own grandparents used to have this fun little game called inspection, where every time they visited, our rooms had to be perfectly clean. And they would give my eldest sister, Celeste, a roll of quarters and my middle sister, Janelle, a roll of dimes. And then me, the youngest, the least pay, I got a roll of nickels. And then my grandpa would inspect

our rooms with a white glove checking for like any dust on windowsills or shelves and making sure that our beds were made to military standards. And we would get docked a coin for every imperfection. I was six. I've talked to so many therapists about it over the years. So just never do this to children. Now, luckily, my parents, they were sweet. They were chill. They had a very practical philosophy of have a place for everything, then just put everything in its place. Anyway, speaking of methods...

While Jamie was inspired by Kondo, she has her own way of doing things. What is the orderly approach like? Like, what is your methodology that you would try to tell someone, here's where you got to start? Like, do you have to get into a mindset first, like an athlete? Or do you just have to get in there and do the work? Yeah, I mean, you definitely have to get into a mindset first. You...

You know, the clients that we work with, they have to be on board and want this. We don't work with someone who, you know, is trying to force their parents to get organized. You know, we need to talk to the client first and make sure they understand, you know, what they're about, what we're about to take them through first.

And they, you know, have to be on board. So, but at Hortalee, we've created an 11-step process that we take all of our clients through. It was 12 steps, but we had to take a step off just for business reasons. Yeah, but most of those steps are...

You know, we give these steps to clients or anyone that wants to tackle space on their own. This works. But when we go through these steps with a client, we only need them there for a few of the steps, which is at the beginning, the middle and the end. Yeah.

So basically the whole time. Yeah. I'm just kidding. But, you know, we do kind of the dirty work. We make it super easy for them to edit. Well, I'll just take you through some of our steps. Yeah, bring it on. But the first step we need them there for is to, you know, give us a tour of the space. And we need to talk to them about, you know, helping them prioritize. Because most people...

you know, as much as they want to get the whole house done, it definitely takes time. Like organizing a space is, it definitely takes longer than most people think. Um, and then we, we do the full pull out of the space. Um, and we like to pull everything out, uh, because it's easiest to start with a blank space. Um, and, and also when you're pulling everything out, you really touch on everything through our editing process, which is our fourth step. But, um,

A lot of people will try to edit their clothes just hanging in their closet as is. And that's not as effective because you're so used to your clothes hanging that way that you're just kind of seeing them as you see them every day. And it's not going to...

really make you consider each item. So it's so important to pull everything out. I said out! And then sort everything. So, you know, put all your genes in one pile because your genes might be spread all over the place. So once you have those items all together, you're going to be able to really realize how much you have. Yeah. And then really consider how much you actually need.

Okay, so I just went around the house and I counted and I have four pairs of jeans hanging in two separate closets, eight folded in the linen cabinet that serves as a dresser. Don't ask me about it. Two in the laundry and then one on my body. 15 pairs, just an army of neglected denim hiding in dark spaces ready to choke me. Ferrari echoing in my mind. 18 pairs of blue pants.

And that doesn't count the seven pairs of black and brown pants and the one pair of white jeans I bought, still adorned with tags because I'm too afraid to wear them and immediately smear them with mustard or Dorito dust. So, okay, Jamie and Philip and Dr. Ferrari all say pull everything out and organize it into piles. So what next? And then you edit. So when we do the full pullout and sort...

This makes it super easy for the client to just walk through with us and make those decisions. And if you're someone that really struggles with making, with editing and letting things go and making those decisions, it's,

so much helpful to have someone or a professional there kind of asking you the right questions to make your decision easier. But also to hold you accountable. Yeah. Yeah. And hold you accountable. It's we have, we have lots of clients that say, Oh, we've already edited everything. We have a lot of, every one of our clients is like, Oh, I've gone through everything. Don't, don't make me get rid of anything.

Okay. To recap their steps, they walk through the space and then they organize items by arranging them into like piles. And then what are the next steps? And can you skip any? Are there any negotiable steps? This is kind of a non-negotiable. Our steps are kind of non-negotiable. So we do still touch on everything with the client. You know, even if they don't get rid of anything, that's fine. But we still want to touch on everything with them and

and if it is a client that said I've already edited, it's so funny because they'll still be, you know, like five bags of donations after we go through it. And they'll, they'll be like, Oh, that's so funny. Like I just, I just edited, but for some reason, you know, going through this process with you, I got rid of so much. Um,

So that happens every time. And it's funny. Is it difficult sentimentally for people to get rid of things? Like, how do you deal with the psychology of I don't want to get rid of this because I feel bad because it was a gift or I don't want to get rid of this because and then I'm saying goodbye to an era or it's a waste if I get rid of it. Like, how much do you have to put on your life?

psychologist hat when you're dealing with these edits? Yeah, it's definitely hard for some people. And that might be the sole, kind of more of the sole reason that they're calling us. But then again, like some clients are super fast going through the editing process. They don't have like attachment to anything and they'll just be like, dot, dot, donate, donate, like keep super fast. The clients that do struggle, we like to really dive deep and ask them, you know,

understand why, 'cause we don't have the personal attachment that they do to their items. If it's a old telephone and they start to get emotional, like we don't understand that, right? So really getting to know, you really get to know your client, the clients through the editing.

But just diving deep and understanding why it's meaningful to them. We're not forcing our clients to get rid of anything. People might be holding on to things for the wrong reason. It might bring, you know, sad or bad memories. And we want to help them get past that. We like to explain to our clients that like now is the time like to let go working with us. You know, you've made this big step.

to go through this process with us. And like now is the time to not feel any guilt, not feel bad because you paid however much money for the, for a certain item. Like it's, it's, it's going to feel so much better on the other side. It's all about, um, asking the right questions. It's if they just purchased something, you know,

that is expensive and they don't want to get rid of it or it was a gift. It's like, when was the last time you wore this? When was the last time you used this? And if they say two years ago, you know, we can make up rules with our clients. Like, okay, the rule now is a year or longer or two years or longer, five years, whatever the rule may be. But let's make up a rule now together and, um,

you know, figure out how long it's been since you've used it. If you used it like two months ago, then obviously go ahead and keep it and we'll come back, we'll circle back later to see how many black t-shirts you actually have, you know, and that's kind of the point. But then the way to really start, if you're going to be organizing yourself and trying to help yourself get organized and declutter and detach from certain things,

The biggest recommendation would be to start with simple things. Start small, start easy. Don't go straight to old photographs and memorabilia and jewelry. Start with, yeah, start with, yeah, no, but work on it. Work on your detachment and your decluttering and that psychology thing, you know?

So by the time you get to those memorabilia things, you're like in the letting go mood. Keep the best of the best is something you can really tell yourself through editing. It's like you don't have to keep every single card that was written to you, but you don't have to keep every...

you know, card from your mom, keep five of your favorites or, you know, and so on. And another thing for, for like letting go of things, a lot of people are, wow, that was a gift. Oh my gosh, that was, they spent so much money. I spent so much money on this, or this is so important to me because of this, but I don't even like it, which happens a lot. And,

Just say, okay, well, we're going to donate it to a good cause, first of all. So feel good about that. And second of all, someone else is going to receive this on the receiving end. They may love it, like absolutely love it. So it kind of helps people just by hearing that from someone, whether a professional or a friend, it helps them let go. Like, okay, this may be good for a good cause. Someone's going to love this really ugly sweater.

The movement toward organizing seems to have swept America, but is that because of our capitalist vibes of excess? What is happening? I asked Dr. Ferrari. What about culturally between, say, Swedish folks in some studies and Americans and perhaps Japanese culture?

Are Americans worse with clutter? Yeah, the short answer is we don't know. You have to understand that the studies that you have, the handful, the lesson handled, are really the only psychology studies we've ever done. The Americans they found have $33 billion worth of used old technology in their house. Wow.

Well, not just their house. All the old cords, all the old laptops, desktops, phones, as I said before. People have on average three phones. I mean, that's interesting to me. And so we wanted to see why is it?

That's the big question. Why are people holding on to their clutter? And I've given a number of motivational talks, and perhaps your listeners will invite me locally looking at this kind of thing. I tell people the problem is not abundance. We are a nation with abundance. We have a lot of stuff. Yes. The problem is attachment to that abundance. Right. We can't get rid of it.

And when I've given these talks, one of the big things I will hear from people, they'll say, yes, I'd love to get rid of it, but I don't know what to do with it. I don't know where to place it. So he says contact an ICD expert at the Institute for Challenging Disorganization or a member of NAPO, the National Association of Professional Organizers.

So you can easily sell things online, locally. You can donate them. And just yesterday, Jarrett put up a posting for a chair we didn't need. And we were going to put it in the garage. More on all this in a minute. And put it online, saying it was free. Within an hour, we had 40 people who really wanted it.

So I'm all about exchanging goods. It's just part of the reuse, reduce, recycle edict. And just like you have molecules in your body that were once a frog or a cloud or a chicken, what better way to give life to an object than to let it become part of someone else's life, right? So aside from apps and just...

determination, maybe caffeine. What else do we need? And what tools would you say are essential if you, let's say hypothetically, let's say your name's Allie Ward, you host a podcast and you have a closet. Since you moved in a year ago, that is still just...

Absolutely like a war zone. Like what tools does a person need? Is it about a playlist? Is it about a label maker? Do you need some good containers? Like what are the essentials? Do you just need a bunch of hefty bags for donations? Like,

what tools do you need to get ready for this? Well, I mean... Jamie just got excited when you said she had a cluttered closet. I started like tapping. I'm like, I want to go organize her. I was imagining it in my head and I was like, ooh, I was like imagining the after. Jamie's drooling over just the description of this messy closet. It's so funny. I will send you a picture. It's one of those things where like,

Like things fall out of it when I open it. It's in my office. My master bedroom is in my office and it's just like, wow. There's like all the recording equipment in there. There's books I haven't read, like gift wrap stuff. Just...

If there were a bowling ball, it would fall off a shelf and definitely give me a concussion. It's one of those. Oh, no. I will bravely post before photos and after photos on Instagram.com slash ologies. And I'm sorry. And you are welcome.

Yeah, tools. I mean, there's so many different tools. Like, crank up the music if that's your thing, if that's going to keep you going, for sure. Before we work with someone, there's no preparation needed because we want to see the space as is. But we do, like, trash bags ready for, like, your donations. That way you can toss your donations straight into the bag and not look back. Black trash bags don't look back.

Yeah. Cleaning products, you know, to wipe down the space after you fully pull it out. The biggest tool is having enough time. It's going to take you all day. And just understanding that it's going to take you all day. So if you need music, if you need booze, if you need whatever you need, you definitely need some trash bags. And the funny thing is if you're tackling it yourself...

Pull everything out, like the steps that were the first couple steps for Hortalee's process. Pull everything out and you're going to have to put it back at some point. Just don't give up halfway through. So pull everything out. And yeah, I think trash bags would be the first step. I mean, that's so true that, yeah, giving yourself time is the biggest tool, if we can count that as a tool. And putting it...

in your schedule, like putting in your calendar, like I'm organizing my closet this day and hold that, that'll hold yourself more accountable. Cause otherwise you're going to say, Oh, I need to organize my closet and continuously think about that. And then just feel guilty that you're not getting to it. Like really just put it in your schedule and schedule out enough time to, to,

to complete it. This had been on my mind for a year. And this Saturday, I had this whole episode to research and write, but there was an internet outage in our area. And I stood in front of the closet and I thought of Jamie and Philip and Dr. Ferrari and Marie Kondo. And I thought, I love mess. Let's dive the fuck in. So put on Lo-Fi Chill Beats on Spotify. We got to work. I recorded part of the process.

Okay, this is a diary-like check-in. Jarrett and I are finally cleaning the office closet. Indeed. We're in it. We're so deep in it. Jarrett, how does it feel? It's a thrill. It's a real thrill. We're like mile seven, mile ten of a marathon. Like, it's starting to hurt and there's no end in sight, but I'm happier already. And I even said to myself while I was looking through a box of gift wrap...

I said to myself, this hurts. This hurts me. So it's not fun, but it's thrilling. And I already feel less depressed. Okay, let's just a quick check in.

Jarrett and I pulled everything out. We started sorting it into piles and y'all, we did it. We did it. While each item did not spark what I would call joy, getting rid of garbage and donating to a good cause and getting rid of that chair and turning the closet into a recording booth instead of talking to my laundry pile, which is

I'm in the recording booth. This is the first episode ever recorded in it. All of that served as like a kindling for what I would call a joy bonfire in my heart. So why did I wait so long? Why did I do it? So I'm here from your future to tell you, organize the mess that you don't want to. It feels so, so, so, so good. So good. But other than an internet outage, what else would Philip and Jamie say that you need?

And besides that, Jamie would say a label maker. I know she would. Yeah, I saw your Instagram. I was like, oh, I bet she's got a label maker that she likes. Do you have one that you like more than others? Oh, I don't leave the house without it. It just goes with me everywhere. We use...

We use the P-Touch Cube Plus. It's a brother. It's a very technical term for a label maker. Yeah. But it's Bluetooth operated and it automatically cuts the label as it comes out.

Side note, I just purchased one of these for $39. If you make as many labels as a professional organizer would make, you would definitely want this one. Oh, yeah. Otherwise, like any, I think any of the, like the, we typically get like the brother ones or the ones from the container store. They have one, a generic one there, but label maker. And there's reasons. I don't know if you want to dive into why we label everything. Yeah. It's so, it's so helpful for us.

and maintenance. It's like, okay, so Ms. Alleyward, you pulled everything out. You want to get an organized closet. I understand. Now you got to put everything back. How are you going to keep it that way? How are you going to keep it organized? And even if we come in there, putting in the systems, what Jamie would say is take 75% of the battle. But the 25% of the battle is keeping it that way and maintaining it.

Right. You definitely have to put some work into it after it's organized. So, yeah, putting in those habits and creating that maintenance and labels are the biggest help in that. So especially in spaces that are shared like kitchens, bathrooms.

Maybe you have a housekeeper, a nanny or your family or your kids even. They all need to know where everything goes just as much as you do. So labeling is one of our very last steps in our process. Label everything. Even if you think it's ridiculous and you live alone, label everything. And then once you, you know, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, once the habits are routine and kick in, go.

Go ahead and peel it off or if it's a communal space and you have other people using it, keep it there because not only do you know where to find things, but much more importantly, you know where to put things back. And that's what serves the purpose of the labels.

In your house, what is the most ridiculous, superfluous, but comforting thing that you have a label on? I don't have much things labeled. Because you've got it on lock, right? It's in the dome. Yeah. I mean, Phillip and I are really on the same page with, like, say we move or, you know, we're renovating our house right now, so things are, you know, done.

landing in new places and we're really figuring out the new space. If I'm putting something somewhere new, you know, Philip and I have that conversation so that we're both on the same page. Trust me, we're very tidy people. So labels, of course, is extremely helpful to the majority of the population. And they are helpful for us as well. We do have labels all over the house. Don't let Jamie lie. I'm trying to figure this out. I'm like looking around my office right now.

But we don't even have kitchen, our kitchen, we don't even have a kitchen installed right now. So it's really hard to say where labels are. We don't not have a laundry room right now. Like our downstairs is in shambles. So just because of construction and it's on hold during this time. So like...

Do you have your label maker labeled? I feel like you should. Okay, quick aside. If you Google image search labeled label maker, you will be rewarded with evidence of many who have done this. Just please trust I'm going to be labeling mine when it arrives. Also, Google label maker pet and you will find many humans have just gently adhered a sticker to their animal's forehead bearing words like dog or cat or

Oh, and remember those old school labels that were kind of raised and you turned a wheel and you punched the letters in and they turned up white? Okay, so those are called Dymo. And you can get new versions or the vintage ones super cheap. Now, what about costs for a pro organizer? Rates vary from $40 to $200 an hour with an average of about $100 an hour. And how does a person know how much time they're going to need a professional organizer? Like, do they have to be a professional organizer?

Do you think people are like, I only need you for like two hours. And you're like, no way, dude. This is a 12-hour job. Like, how does someone know? Oh, yes. So that's my fun job. Okay. So quotes and things like that. First of all, the client, if they're anywhere near, like, I think it's happened one time in the five years where they're like, I think I need like 36 hours. And I'm like, wow. Wow. I think you...

I think you do need 36 hours. That was a good guess. You must. Have you worked with us before? But no, it's a lot of people think we don't even do less than typically six hours. We will do four hours, but typically six hours is the minimum because...

Again, our mission is to change our clients' lives through organizing and no way in hell you're going to change anyone's life in four hours in organizing because 11 steps of a process, I can't walk you through the 11 steps in four hours. I'd much less pull everything out and have the time to put it back. So, it takes some time to, and some time to adjust to when we quote because our actual

business model is really stupid because we don't want repeat clients. We want to teach you how to get organized and stay organized. So it's not the cheapest service in the world, although it's decently affordable for most people and it's getting more affordable. The more organizing grows.

So the hordes say that average unpacks for a move are 50 to 100 hours, with big houses taking about 100 hours. So kind of like a nice couch that you wouldn't want to barf on or kind of a classy bedroom set. Hiring professionals is an investment.

But that's something that will last them for years and give, deliver like actual mental health benefits every single day. Give them time. So much time. We save clients. I don't know how many hours a year, if you want to put it that way. And you know, time is money. So yeah, the mental clarity of, of getting organized. We haven't really talked about much of the clarity from being organized or the time you're about to save in your life. But we tell clients, we promise them we're going to save them headaches, which is a given, uh, time, uh,

which they won't really realize until after the place is organized and money. And they cock their head at that one, but we're going to save you money in the long run. You're never going to, you don't have four tumerics in your spice cabin when we're through with you and you won't ever buy four tumerics again. Same goes for black t-shirts and underwear and socks. I think so much too, we buy things sometimes

thinking that they will make us happy or solve a problem. But the thing that we buy doesn't deliver the mental health benefits we hope. And I imagine that after you declutter and you edit and you go through all this, you probably have a peace of mind that you don't, you're not trying to fill a chasm with items anymore.

Yeah, that's very true. When we do the full pullout of a space, it can be very daunting to some clients to see everything kind of all at once pulled out and kind of... Awakening. Yeah, awakening. And that can be the start of a change of lifestyle when it comes to purchasing things. Wait.

Side note, did I just buy that label maker to fill a hole? Am I ever even going to use it? What if I don't? Why don't I just write labels on masking tape? Or is that weird for my boyfriend to see everything in the house labeled in my handwriting? That seems kind of passive aggressive. Maybe impartial labeling actually is worthwhile. I don't know. As long as I have a space for the label maker to live. Maybe I should get rid of another item. And then we teach the one in one out rule, which is like, don't go buying another item

whatever, unless you're willing to get part with one that you have. And everything's tidy. Everything has its home. So you know where everything is. It's really, you can focus more on what you love now. And that is like the minimalism goal, right? So you have few things, just what you need. Well, the essentialism goal, which is kind of what we teach our employees and our clients is,

You have everything that's essential to you and that you love. It's what Marie Kondo preaches. She doesn't necessarily need to get rid of everything either. Of course, that helps, but it's kind of like that essentialism goal, which...

I think is just so powerful and knowing what you have, but loving what you have. But if you need that coach to check in with you while you're going through either the day or just that one closet or your entire house, having just a few check-ins is extremely valuable. Just to have that professional opinion like, oh, why don't you put your spices in this cabinet because of this reason? We're in kitchens all day, every day. We see, you know, all the products, all the things, all the...

junk from our clients. We work with all the different client, uh, different personality types. So we know how to organize any space in any situation. And you'll learn so much through going through this process on your own. You'll learn a lot about yourself. If you're constantly telling yourself like, why am I not organized? Like, why, why can I not stay organized? Like go through this process, do it the right way.

And you'll learn through going through the process. And then you'll be addicted. Yeah. And then it's addicting. Because you'll take it to work. You'll take it to your friends. You'll organize your parents' house. It is truly addictive. And it's a simple pleasure of clarity.

It's like real life Tetris. Yes. Oh, yes, it is. You know, like, ooh, that could go there. This could be minimalized. I have so many questions from listeners. Can I ask them? Absolutely. Okay. I told them I was interviewing you. You guys specifically. I was like, I reached out to kind of a big...

deal. Organizers, people are very excited. Okay, before I get to patrons' questions, which you could submit if you support the show for as little as a dollar a month, first we will hear from sponsors of the show who make it possible for us to donate to a charity each episode. And this week our oikologists

chose dressforsuccess.org, which is a global not-for-profit organization that empowers women to achieve economic independence by providing a network of support and professional attire and the development tools to help women thrive in work and life. We made a second donation in Dr. Ferrari's name to ICD, the Institute for Challenging Disorganization, and their mission is to provide

education, research, and strategies to benefit people challenged by chronic disorganization. And they say that they understand the brain has a lot to do with the client's ability to be organized and to maintain organizational and productivity systems. And brain-based challenges, whether congenital or acquired, they say, directly impact organizational skills. And they have free resources, including a 16-page guidebook to assess cluttering versus hoarding. That's up at their site at challengingdisorganization.org.

and donations were made possible by sponsors of the show, who you may hear about now. When U.S. Bank says they're in it with you,

They mean it. Not just for the good stuff, the grand openings and celebrations, although those are pretty great, but for all the hard work it took to get there. The fine tuning of goals, the managing of cash and workflows, and decision making. They're in to help you through all of it.

because together they're proving day in and day out that there is nothing as powerful as the power of us. Visit usbank.com to get started today. Equal housing lender, member FDIC, copyright 2024, US Bank. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And as I record this, my dog, Gremmy, is snoring. Snoring.

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Okay, your questions. Let's pull them out. Okay, I thought this was a great question. Megan C asked any advice for people with mental blockers like depression or ADHD or anxiety or executive function and stuff that prevent them from actively organizing? Like if someone is maybe a little bit, you know, scatterbrained, I'll call myself. How would you how do you tackle that?

Work with a professional to keep you focused and accountable. Yeah, you need accountability. You need somebody there, like, focusing your attention to doing it, to going through the process. Yeah, like, be okay with asking for help. You know, it's okay if you can't tackle space on your own. And I imagine once you have a system, too, it's this setting up the system more than adhering to it that seems like it would be the problem, you know? Yeah.

Lack of a system is usually the problem. We can look at a disorganized space right away and that's usually the answer. I mean, we can teach kids how to keep their toy room organized just by having the right system in place. Toys won't end up everywhere, you know, and it takes 15 minutes at the end of a session to tell the kids where everything goes. And if the kids can do it, trust me, you can do it too and keep it organized once the system's in place.

So side note, some habits and processes can be learned early, and it may be helpful for those struggling with conditions like ADHD. And in one 2010 study called ADHD Prevalence and Association with Hoarding Behaviors in Childhood Onset OCD, it was reported that roughly 42% of the participants with ADHD also had hoarding compared to 29% of participants with ADHD.

without ADHD. So if clutter is something that you have struggled with and you have a therapist, bring it up and you may be able to detangle what's happening behind it because you deserve to feel better. You deserve the time and effort it takes to clean things and you deserve to get rid of stuff that bums you out. I'm also talking to myself here. Brendan Kaler wants to know, why do I always end up shoving everything in my closet or a drawer rather than not being lazy? Why do we do it? Why do we out of sight, out of mind things? Yeah.

because you don't love the way it looks. If you love the way it looks, you will want to keep it maintained. The same reason that we recommend that you don't share spaces with other people other than kitchens and things like that. But if you have your own closet and you make it look really, really pretty and buy all the nice hangers and the cute bins that you love and you hang everything and get it organized, you're going to love it and you will not treat it that way. You know, you can definitely get away with if you're more on budget of, you know, kind of shopping the house of what you have. But

we love when possible, you know, streamlining the products using matching bins really give it that beautiful touch. You know, functionality is always first.

But then kind of mixing in that beauty is important or we feel is very important. For maintenance, definitely. Yeah, for maintenance. Yeah. So it's not indulgent to make it pretty. You need that as the reward. Yeah, a little bit, yes. Absolutely, yeah. But if you do it yourself the right way and spend a little bit more money on the right products, then not only will it last longer and be more sustainable, but you're going to love it and you're going to keep it that way a lot longer. You're going to get tired of those things.

Wire hangers soon enough. It's so much easier on the eye to like really just simple. Good example is, you know, you're hanging clothes on a million different hangers. You could easily have your clothes organized or whatever. But with the hanger was...

It's distracting. All the same, it's just so much easier on the eye and it's definitely great. Yeah, easier to shop your closet. No! Jessica Chamberlain wants to know any strategies for couples who disagree on what to keep. Not to be repetitive, but work with a professional. Yeah. A mediator. We play couple, like therapist. Aw.

all day, every day, you know, and it's so funny to see, you know, the couples fighting about something. And then I'm like, you know what? Let me like work with your husband, just him and I. Jamie says that they usually cooperate easily with a professional. You might get in arguments with your husband about organization. That's normal for a lot of couples. Right. Right.

Right outside, I have a really lovely view in my office and my boyfriend Jared is very athletic and he chose literally right in my eye line to hang like a broken boxing bag.

No. Why do you own that? Okay, put him on the phone. Let me talk to him. No, I'm just kidding. He has since taken it down, and we have replaced it with a lovely hanging chair. But it was one of those things where I was like, oh, this is going to be a discussion. Oh, yes. You're like, ooh. It was held together with tape, and he used it every once in a while, but I was like, ooh. What? Like, when should I bring this up? No.

Okay, I just want you to know that I initially cut that whole story out, but Jarrett, who helps with assistant editing, was like, leave it in. I'm not ashamed. So there you go. Now, I don't know. For some reason, broken or faded athletic equipment outdoors just really pushes my sad buttons. But I didn't want to speak up at first because I didn't want to offend him. But I did. Now the bag's out of sight. He puts it up when he wants to use it. It's all good. We're talking about it on a podcast.

I thought this was a really good question Sage Alexander asked. How do I declutter without losing interest three minutes in and playing with a cool thing that I found? That is one of the biggest problems with organizing on your own and not completing it is getting distracted by what you find. Yeah.

Go through the process, go through the pull. See, so you pull everything out. I mean, that's the biggest tip right there. Pull everything out. You might get distracted by the little things, but tunnel vision, you got to have a goal and complete it, set aside that time. But yeah, getting distracted happens so much, especially with our clients that we go through things and they're like telling us a long story about every single article of clothing. We're like, I wore that last at this time and this, and it's just...

It's like, okay, bring it back to center. Here we go. What we do with clients is actually start holding up the next thing to edit. So they're like holding this one piece of clothing or something and distracted by it. And we're like, okay, what about this? But no, this, what about this? You know, so you keep the train just moving.

Moving, moving, moving. Got to keep the train moving. I hate to be redundant with hiring a professional. It's definitely helpful, but there's a reason that people hire therapists and physical trainers and everything else. But yeah, try not to get distracted. I know that's stupid.

piece of advice, but yeah. Okay, so I knew this would be of interest to a lot of folks. So I looked up some tips for housekeeping if you have ADHD or are just an alive human who does not want to do this shit. So psychologists say that folks with ADHD prefer to keep their stuff in full view as reminders to return or

or repair it. But then that clutter ends up being demotivating. So having a clear bin for stuff to deal with later can help. And other tips I've seen for ADHD and cleaning are setting a timer and seeing if you can beat the clock and then rewarding yourself if you do, or taking before and after photos as incentive. I also like to do time blocking when I clean, like telling myself ahead of time that I'll clean the kitchen from 12 to 1230 and vacuum from 1230 to

1245 and so on. So that way I know what task I'm doing and I kind of need to catch the next train to make the schedule. Toot toot, all aboard, clean house. Anyway, I can tell you from experience, I have known Jarrett for nine years and his room in his old apartment looked like a Law and Order episode about a ransacking or like he had been storing the Holy Grail in his hamper and someone was desperate to find it. One time he forgot he left raw pork on top of his fridge and then the next day he cooked it and

ate it to the horror of literally everyone in his life. Now, since then, he's been clinically diagnosed with ADHD, which explained so much. This morning, he woke up earlier than me and he cleaned the entire kitchen. And he told me that it helps to turn on a TV show on his laptop and listen or watch it via headphones because then as he cleans or does whatever boring chores on his list, his attention wanders to that fun distraction instead of random places. He says it's like if you had to pour

water on a table and direct the flow. So you made a channel with another thing to hold your attention. Now, I can also tell you from experience, I get so much cleaning done listening to audio books or to podcasts. So if you are decluttering while listening to this, I'm right here with you.

I'm non-creepily holding your hand. Also, donate some of those vases you never use. Oh, and you can give those old towels to an animal shelter. They're going to love it. Okay, onward. Talayla Manson, first time question asker, wants to know, why does a clean room feel refreshing to look at? Why do we feel happier when we don't have like a huge pile of clothes on the ground? Wow.

Ah, yes. Such a good one. Yeah. I mean, tidy, like tidy dust, tidy mind, tidy space, tidy mind. Um, it's like a weight lifted off your shoulders. You look, you look at a cluttered space or a pile of clutter. It's just like, it weighs you down, um,

Yeah, what you see is what you get. It's what happens in your mind. If you have a cluttered home, your mind is cluttered, your family is cluttered, everything's cluttered. So having a clean space and an organized space and a tidy space means your mind is clean, your mind is clutter-free, your mind is organized, and it's refreshing, absolutely.

Okay, so I was curious exactly why. And one article in Psychology Today written by psychologist Dr. Sherry Berg-Carter outlines eight reasons why mess causes stress. And I will paraphrase. So essentially, by clearing clutter and getting organized, we're less sensory overloaded and our mind has more space to relax and be creative. And we don't have this nagging feeling of needing to work.

We feel less ashamed and more proud of ourselves. And then we get things done faster because things don't get lost. So this explains why I can be having what feels like a depressive episode for weeks until I just fold all the laundry that's been sitting on a chair for 15 days. And suddenly I'm a new person. So folding underpants, it's like free therapy.

I love this question from Rachel Weisz. They asked, what is the easiest thing you think everyone should be doing to declutter their home? Like what's step number one? Prioritize is number one. That is, especially right now, you know, you sit in your home and you think of all the things you could do.

Yeah, you could literally organize every space in your home right now. That's going to really weigh you down and overwhelm you. And then you're not going to get anything done because you're just going to be super overwhelmed. So prioritize. Pick a space and like just focus on that and work on that space until it's done. Don't think about the other spaces yet. Just hone in on that one area. Yeah.

Don't even start with the kitchen. Start with the pantry in the kitchen. Start with the junk drawer. Start with the junk drawer. Yeah. That's good. The kitchen as a whole, that's a huge project. Start with the junk drawer. Then start with the other drawers. And then...

Yeah, and then you'll be inspired. And like we said, organizing is addictive. It's because you have that clean feel. So once it's clean, once it's organized, you'll be addicted to it. So you'll have that sense of accomplishment that'll keep you going. And all areas lead into other areas. And you'll find that once you tackle that first space. You might have a little pile. You organize your...

You're going to have a little pile from your closet that actually belongs in your bathroom. You're not going to put that back in your closet. You need to put that in the bathroom. But now, you know, you should probably do the bathroom next. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Back to junk drawers. What does your junk drawer look like? I don't have one. Oh, I don't have a junk drawer. I've never I've never had one. Oh, my God.

What would live in a drunk drawer? Batteries. Batteries go in the toolkit. What would... Pens. Pens go in the desk. Right. You know, I don't know what else would go in there. Scissors. Scissors go in the desk as well. But we have one pair of scissors with the larger utensils in the kitchen. Well, kitchen scissors. Yeah. So the drunk drawer...

I've always been one to not. Yeah. That's amazing. I'm going to make people post photos of their junk drawers for this. I want to see them. You're going to love it, Jamie. You're going to be like, Oh, look at all these junk.

We organize junk drawers all the time. It's all about containment. So go find the little organizers and bins that go in the drawer to contain your stapler or your scissors or your pens. It creates structure in that drawer. It needs structure. And you can even label each little divider, like batteries. You can really...

dive deep and have fun with it. That's such a good challenge. That is what I will be doing. There you go. Okay, folks. So post a before and after photo with the hashtag OlogiesJunk. Also, that junk drawer, once you organize it, you can call it a multi-purpose drawer. That's what some people do because most of the stuff in there is hella functional. So I keep screws and batteries and

And scissors, I mean, think about it. You probably use that drawer more than any other in the house. Maybe even more than the one your toothpaste goes in. Is that weird? Speaking of weird.

Laura Darnell wants to know, how weird was it when you first started going through other people's stuff? And my follow-up is, have you ever found anything embarrassing? Like, oops, there's a box of butt plugs. Like, what do you do? Oh, we've seen it all. We've seen all. We will know you like the back of your hand by the time we're done working with you. And, you know, we tell a lot of clients that, especially the clients that are very nervous at first. But like, you know,

No judgment here. Like, that's, it's what we do. And we see it all. And we create, you know, we create homes for everything. No matter what we find, we'll create a home. If it's a keep, we create a home for it. So there's definitely been some homes or some labels that, maybe not labels, but. We won't get into too many celebrity stories with you. Oh my God.

Yeah. I'm sure you're like, oh, do I create a label? Yeah, yeah. There usually is a question like, I probably shouldn't. Oh, my God. I love these questions from Kedazirandi. Loki and Annie C. essentially asked about gifts. Like, how long are you supposed to hold on to gifts that are not spot on? Oh, God.

Not at all. Yeah, not at all. Say no to freebies. Say no to freebies. GIFs, you know, a lot of people worry about, you know, oh, when that person comes over, they're going to ask about it. No, they won't. They forgot. Like, yeah, don't make that like an excuse to keep it. Like, focus on yourself.

It took me a little bit of time to be able to get a card from my mom. Sorry, mom. And just throw it right into the trash once I read it. I love it. But I mean, at the end of the day, I don't need to keep that. And she doesn't remember sending it. You know, she's like, where did you get? Did you have your Easter card last? I sent that two months ago. No, I don't. You know, so it took a little bit of time getting used to that, though. But I think I think just.

Or again, keep the best of the best. I keep a few items in our guest bedroom for that items that were special to me, though, that it might not be like my style for our home or anything. I'm not going to hang it anywhere in our home. If it has meaning, keep it, you know, or but definitely try to enjoy the meaning out of it. Try not to like.

you know, just stuff it somewhere. So Dr. Ferrari also touched on this. Every year we accumulate more stuff. And so older folks may therefore struggle more with this. Another common comment I hear, particularly among seniors, is, well, I want to give it away to my family, but my kids don't want it. My grandkids don't want it. Okay. Well, okay.

Give it to somebody else. All right. Sure. Your kids, your millennial kids don't want the fine China. People don't want that anymore. People aren't into sterling silver or they're not into all this cut crystal. But somebody might be. And who? Go to your local Habitat for Humanity.

where they're rebuilding a house for somebody. They'd love to have those dishes. Sure, your family can't use it, but another family could. Look at that house you just saw on the news where the people lost everything that burned down. Maybe they can use your dishes. Maybe they can use those pots and pans. Maybe they wouldn't mind eight spatulas.

So there's ways of giving it away. You leave a legacy. That's what we're called to do. And you know, Ali, that's one of my things. Leave a legacy. What are you doing to make this world a better place? That's the problem. So remember, it's you that means a lot to people, not what you give them or leave behind. People are going to remember laughing and birthday cakes and hugs and the way that you made them feel loved, not 15 bowls and two butter dishes. Yeah.

And so your family doesn't want it. That's fine. But give it to a new family, a new tradition. My parents, they started decluttering when they were alive. Right. Their point was, we want to give you kids. I have four of us kids. I want to give you the gift of not having to go through all this clutter. Right. And I want us and while we're alive and we're still sane and we're still cognitively there, we want to see you enjoy it.

So come take this, come take that. Let me give you this. And, you know, so I can see you enjoy it. That's a beautiful thing to do. So don't feel like you have to give unwanted gifts or else people will forget you. Now, speaking actually of gifts, when it comes to buying them, I'm the worst. I just freak out and I end up sending things like six months after someone's birthday.

Okay, I have terrible gift-giving anxiety where I am so afraid of getting people things that they don't want that they then have to deal with that I end up procrastinating on gift buying or I just don't know what to get. Like, what kind of gifts do you give people knowing that you don't want to clutter anyone's house? Do you give gift cards, experience gifts? What do you do? First of all, that's great that you think that way first. I think that's important for people to keep in mind. Like,

Like, you know, especially for those people that get gifts that they don't know what to do with, you know, keep in mind, like, are you gift giving to people? And, you know, that like, don't give your clutter to other people, but definitely gift instead of things like gift experiences. Yeah.

You know, like if they have kids, like maybe that's like a fun like trampoline place or something where they can like get out and enjoy experiences together rather than like a thing, like an item. But also, you know, feel free to give a gift and say, you know, don't feel obligated to keep this. Yeah. Gift receipts. You know, donate it if you want.

if you don't love it. But we don't, I don't give gift cards. I think I grew up not, do you give gift cards? I just grew up not like. I don't give gifts. Yeah, I'm awful at it. No, like gift cards. Oh, gift cards. I just feel like they're kind of a. I know because a lot of times you might not use them, but. Well, it's also like, do you give a, you don't want to give a gift card to, you know, Gap and then they go buy a ton of clothes. You know, it's kind of like promoting, like purchasing more clothes that they might not need.

I do think a fun thing to do, especially if you're broke, is to take all of the gift cards and gift certificates and like gift cards that have like

five dollars on them and just like make a day of just like running through all your gift cards yes you've got three dollars on a yogurt land you're gonna go get yogurt that day yes i love that do that but um i love this question from terry mcnee who apparently has been reading my diary why can't i put my laundry away after it comes out of the dryer it sits on the laundry chair capitalized for weeks what what happens oh

Treat laundry like groceries. Nice. Like, when you bring groceries into your house, like cold groceries, like they have to go in the fridge, right? Mm-hmm. So as soon as laundry's done, like just get it all done and do it. And treat it like groceries. Like they're going to go bad if you don't put them away. Mm-hmm. Jamie dumps it on our bed. We can't sleep at night unless we pour the laundry. I mean, that's a great way, just getting in the motion of pulling it straight out of the dryer, dumping it on the bed. It's like, well, I mean...

Then you got to have discipline for all of this. It's just like getting a six packer going and doing a juice cleanse. Like you got to have a little bit of discipline. If you can not take the laundry from dumped on the bed and put it on the other chair, like just sweeping it under the rug, you got to have a little bit of discipline, but kind of make restrictions. So if you've ever slept a full night, nestled in clean, unfolded laundry, like a rat, I see you.

I am you. Now, it occurred to me in the making of this that managing clutter isn't about more frequent marathon cleaning binges. Clutter is just caused simply by a failure to put things away in the first place in the moment. So organizing isn't about these big corrections of mess so much as it's just about making it easier to put things away so you don't have big cleanups waiting, making it easier to do it as you go so it doesn't creep up on you.

I also see Jamie, if something needs to go upstairs or downstairs, she might not want to run upstairs and run back downstairs and run upstairs, but she'll put it right in the way of the door. Or like it needs to go out to the trash. It is right. You can't even exit the house without taking it with you. So it's kind of like prepping yourself up for future success. Yeah. And also...

Yeah. Like moving things towards where they need to go. If you can't get it there right away, but always making sure like, don't, don't create a pile on your steps, but then continue passing it. Like every time you go up the step, if there's something there that you put there early in the day, like take it up, take it closer to where it needs to go. Yeah.

So Dr. Ferrari said that the main areas of clutter are closets, kitchen, and books. And a lot of folks asked about the last one, including Don Ewald, Bookstore Lovin', Brad Del Mons, Poppy Milliken, Kata Zarandi, first-time question askers Manuel Gonzalez and Sarah Kulig, and Zoe Buckley and Amelia Hines, who specifically asked this next question.

Someone asked, um, when it comes to bookshelves, alphabetical topic, color, it's personal preference. Um, I personally love to just organize the books by color at a client's house, but, um, I always ask them how they would prefer it first before we organize them. Um,

Definitely, yeah, personal preference. We actually just organized Philip's. Philip is a book lover, a book collector. Yeah, it's a hoarder of books. We just organized his library style. So an alphabetical by category and within category alphabetical.

And this way, this way it actually, I didn't want color coordinated. So it actually makes it look like it forces you to have different sizes and different colors. If you go by either alphabetical or by category and I made up my own categories. I don't go by the library. I just kind of had like, did you use a label maker? Yeah or no?

No, well, they're on like exposed shelves. Oh, okay. So you and you know what goes where. That's how I did my books too. We did sticky. So we had a sticky note. Sticky notes were out on the, the sticky notes were very alive while we were sorting and putting them up. You got extra books? Patron Loki wrote in and said, quote, you could take the books to a VA. They always take them. A hospital, a nursing home, or a donation center, quote.

Although check ahead of time just to see if they're accepting donations right now. You could also consider building a freestanding little library in your neighborhood. Once I was very sad and lonely and I happened upon a little library and in it was a book about love and relationships. And I was like, I do have to accept and love myself first.

Most importantly, when you do make them, make sure you label them "donate" so that when the time comes that you can donate those items, you don't fish back through them and sort of blame things back and... What I recommended, we were actually interviewed not too long ago about this donation question and what I think would be smart and what we have actually done literally in our car, we're not driving anywhere or very seldomly at least, so when we can drive somewhere again in the hopefully near future,

The donations are in the back of the car. You know, it's not like we need trunk space right now. So I put or Jamie and I put our donations in the back of our car because when we can drive, we'll be able to donate, hopefully. Smart. That's great. Oh, I didn't ask the oikologist about movies or TV shows. Jamie, when you were growing up, did you ever identify with Monica on Friends? And you were like, why does everyone give her a hard time for being so organized?

Friends was definitely one of my favorite shows when I was younger. And Monica was always my favorite. I know. I related a lot to her. Not her room. Not the room, though, that she hides from everyone. Oh, my God. How did you get? You're messy. No.

say this that was a fun twist whoever whatever producer threw that in that's funny that's not how we are and then last two questions I always ask what sucks the most about being a professional organizer what is the hardest thing or what is the most irksome what is the one part about your job that you

Do you ever get into someone's house and you're like, whoa, dude. I mean, not necessarily. Like I said earlier, we see it all. Nothing really phases us at this point. We just want to help. They're having to haul things in New York down steps. That's one of my favorite parts. It's our workout for the day, for sure. Yeah.

See, so this is one of the reasons why an organizer can really be worth the money. Now, Philip says one thing that they both love is seeing the client's reactions to their newly organized space. It's like the moment at the end of a haircut when a barber styles your hair and then you just walk out of there confident, feeling transformed. You're like in slow motion on a runway and everyone's like, whoa, what a fox. But instead, that's you thinking that about the shelving in your garage. Right.

Just horny for organization. What's the thing you love the most about professional organizing? Like what is the thing that just gives you butterflies? Tokimiku. Well, just everything about it. I mean, changing our clients' lives, of course, is...

in making, making that, that difference in their life. My, my favorite part of organizing in, in general is like the, is the mindfulness of it all of, of that kind of like that mental clarity after going through the process of like understanding what all you have, knowing where it belongs. Like it's just such a mindful process. Like one of our employees, her favorite part of like organizing is like,

having kind of the control, like being the coach. They said that organizing can scratch an itch that this employee just missed while she was on vacation. She came back from, she was like on a 45-day backpacking trip over the globe. And she came back and she said,

I need to get back into someone's home so I can control them. I need to control a client. It's kind of like that perfectionist. They have, it's a perfectionist mindset. When we hire our employees, we have the most

you know, difficult questions that they have to like tricky questions. Like I have to see this, that you're a perfectionist. You gotta be a little crazy to do this. Nobody in their right mind wants to, wants to schlep, you know, 10 bags and a cab across New York city to, to Goodwill or from the containers. That being said, like it's,

It's not about perfectionism either. But Jamie jumps in to note perfect in whose eyes? Like it's not about having everything perfect in this in this the way that they say, you know, whatever that you read or see that it should be. It's it's about curating your space in an organized way of what works for you.

That's why it's so important to go through these steps. It's so inspiring. It really is. It makes me feel like, okay, I'm not the only person, a chaos closet in my home. I can do something about it. It's just, it's just coming up with a system and that it's doable. So that's very, it's very doable.

So ask orderly people disorganized questions because there is no shame in entropy and you deserve peace and beauty should you want it. Maybe you don't. That's a-okay too. So you can follow the Hordes at Instagram.com slash orderly. They have a website at orderly.com. Dr. Joseph Ferrari is a professor at DePaul University. He's on Facebook. I will add links in the show notes to them and to the sponsors and the charities we mentioned. We are at Ologies on Instagram and on Twitter. I'm

Allie Ward with one L on both. Thank you to the family of Ologites supporting faithfully on patreon.com slash ologies. You can also join the subreddit Ologies Podcast or the Ologies Podcast Facebook group moderated by the wonderful Erin Talbert, who I have known since we were four. I remember once she was not allowed to go outside to play. So I came over to help her clean her room so she could. And we organized her colored pencils for like an hour.

And then we were like, oh, I guess we should tackle the big things first, huh? So Ernie, I just want you to know, I think about that moment like at least twice a week. Okay. Also, thank you to Emily White and all the transcriptionists making the transcripts available. They're free at aliboard.com slash ologies dash extras. Thank you, Caleb Patton, for bleeping episodes to make them kid-friendly. They are also up at that link, which is going to be in the show notes.

Thank you, Kelly Dwyer, for website updates and Noelle Dilworth for being my right hand lady. Thank you to assistant editor and truly wonderful boyfriend, Jared Sleeper. And of course, thank you to the guy with the best dude sticker on his forehead, Stephen Ray Morris, who hosts the Perkast and See Jurassic Right podcast. He lead edits the episode, had a lot of bits, a lot of pieces, 41 asides. He stitches it all together with Jared.

So Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music. And since you listened all the way to the end, here's the new secret. Okay, so I'm on like, don't lift heavy stuff rest. I'm on take it easy rest, right? Told by numerous doctors. And we have a kitchen from like the 70s. We got this house maybe five years ago, like one owner essentially before us. And so the kitchen, some of the drawers, when you pull them open like our silverware drawer, sawdust cut.

emits from the bottom and the drawer doesn't stay upright so we've got a pretty um in need of repair kitchen so we're finally doing it and we'd had this plan forever and then the people doing the kitchen were like great news we can start tearing apart your house on february 28th and i was supposed to go into this surgery march 1st so we're like can you put it off like of course

Anyway, they're coming the day after tomorrow. So I'm releasing this encore episode of decluttering and there are going to be people coming to tear my kitchen apart. We have not moved anything. So I want you to know if you're listening to this in solidarity with you, I am not lifting heavy stuff, but I'm definitely loading entire spice racks and...

and silver into like laundry baskets to sit in the living room. So I feel you. It always feels better afterward. Also, I'm on such wonderfully mellow bed rest that I'm lucky to have a lot of my needs attended to by Jared who's stuck around a lot to help me lift stuff and just make sure I'm having fluids and all that. And he's not home today and I needed my headphones and I turned to Gremi and I was going to ask her to hand them to me before I realized I

um how bonkers i've gone so okay i'll be back next week bye-bye hackadermatology homeology cryptozoology letology meteorology look at this stuff isn't it neat wouldn't you think my collection's complete wouldn't you think i'm the girl the girl who has everything