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That's morbid in the afternoon. It's a spooky, rainy afternoon today. Oh my God, the thunder. I don't know why we're talking like this. I don't know either. It feels very big edge. The glasses, gotta see. The mirror, gotta have it.
It's my favorite thing ever. Oh, man. I love it. I love Big Ang. R.I.P. my sweet queen. We're just trying to make ourselves laugh before. I guess we're in part two of the kidnapping and murder of Marion Parker. And I will say that the absolute worst is over. Okay, that's good news. In part one.
Now we're just going to go to the absolute zaniness of what happened afterwards. I hope it's not zany in a way where I'm going to be so horrifically pissed off. No. Oh, okay. At the end, you will go, yeah. Yeah. At the very end. So know that. Going in, know that any frustrations you feel, I just feel like we all need this. We don't need to be on the edge of our seats. No. Any frustration you feel at the end, you're going to go.
Yeah, she's doing like a little... I won't tell you how though. Yeah, I put my... Like the tiniest fist bump, but like with the biggest impact. Yeah, that. Hell yeah. Okay, all right, all right, let's go. But it's going to be wild. It's going to be wild. Noises here in these parts. Here in these parts. So...
When we left you in part one, they had discovered that William Hickman was the murderer. He was 19 years old. They were pursuing him all over the damn place. The fact that he's 19 is still boggling my motherfucking mind. They had spotted him in Portland, Oregon. Yes.
And that's where a gas station attendant had seen him filling his tank. And like I said before, by this point, his photograph was literally everywhere. Yeah. You could not go somewhere without seeing this man's photograph. So they were getting sightings all over the place. And the last one they got was that someone said they saw him headed in the direction of the Columbia River Gorge.
Yeah, that made me nervous. Now, from the moment reporters were made aware of Marion's kidnapping, the press went wild, as we talked about. I mean, they pursued this case crazy. But once the suspect was named and the investigators began their interstate pursuit of William Hickman, the coverage increased like a hundredfold. Yeah.
I mean, in papers across California and honestly the Pacific Northwest as a whole, the police chase was chronicled in all the front page stories. This was the biggest story. Because you said this was like one of the most, one of the biggest manhunts in LA history, right? Oh yeah, it was massive. That's nuts. Massive. But that wasn't all. During the first week of the investigation, newspapers included dozens of, it wasn't just front page, it was like
all these articles in all of the newspapers. I mean, dozens of them and like talking about the kidnapper now that they had the identity. I mean, it would take up like five pages in a newspaper like daily. Damn. So it was like prime real estate. It was taking up a lot of people's days. Everyone was getting fed constant information about this, which was feeding everyone's anger and everyone's like,
just sense of justice and wanting to get this guy. Like this guy had, I don't know where he thought he was going to go. There was not a safe corner in this earth for him. Yeah. It reminds me of like the night stalker where everyone thinking that there's no safe place on earth for you fucker. Like, so we're looking for you. Your photograph is everywhere. And when we see you, you're going to get fucked. You're going to get got. But in it,
And now, like decades and decades later, similar events like the one that we all think of probably in our minds, like the slow motion O.J. Simpson car chase in 1994, that was the same kind of coverage that this was receiving. Just not on the television. But in 1927, definitely.
nothing was covered like this. So it's like when, when the OJ Simpson case happened, that was massive news, but we had seen that kind of coverage before. Like, or that was at least like, you know, the one of the ones that stands out in everyone's mind in 1927, unprecedented, right? Like this was the first of its kind to really do this. Um,
And this kind of coverage, like it does now, when something like, we've seen this, like it does now, when people cover it like this, like one of the ones I think of is like the Gabby Petito case. Yes. How it was covered so carefully, like closely. Yes. And minute by minute. And we were all so invested in it. And we're so invested in Gabby and like just really wanting this like good outcome. It also gives people like the impression that they are like,
along for this. Yeah. Like they feel like toe-to-toe with law enforcement almost. Like part of it.
And it also adds a more emotional investment in the case. Like it makes you feel like this is someone you know. Yes. When it's covered like that, it really makes you feel like you're part of it. Oh, absolutely. And that's how people felt with this. They felt like Marion was theirs and that this guy, they were going to fucking find him. Because you can relate to that on some human level. Everybody can. Like not all the details, obviously. But like anybody with a soul can –
And look at this and empathize and say, holy shit. I can't imagine. Like, I can't. Like, I'm here with you. And let's get this fucker. Exactly. Now, as investigators trailed Hickman from one state, you know, to another all across the Northwest, they were thinking that this would hopefully all be over soon and they would just have their killer. They were not enjoying this, like, wild goose chase anymore.
Chief Herman Klein told reporters on the night of December 21st, because remember, this is all happening in the span of like a week. It feels like so much has happened. It's also crazy that it's just like literally like days before Christmas. Days before Christmas this is happening. He told reporters, the search, in my opinion, is near its end. We are all hopeful that here that the search will provide success, will prove successful and that the fiend will be under arrest within a few hours.
I also miss when people would be referred to as fiends because it's a very good way to describe someone like this. Like he is a fucking fiend. Fiend is perfect. You know, it just feels right. Luckily, Chief Klein's confidence would prove to be well-placed because on the afternoon of December 22nd, the day after...
Two police officers in Echo, Oregon spotted Hickman driving and recognized him from the wanted posters and they started giving chase. Motherfucker. When he saw the sirens, he pulled off the side of the road.
And when the officer appeared at his car, he asked whether he had been speeding, and that's why he was pulled over. Not exactly. So they asked him to identify himself, and he said his name was Peck, and he was from Seattle. Just Peck? But then when they asked him to step out of the car, a pistol fell from his pants pocket, and that kind of gave him away. Yeah, that'll do it. After a brief round of questioning, Hickman gave up the ruse and exhaustedly said, yes, I am Edward Hickman.
William Edward Hickman. You're William Edward Hickman. People went by their middle names a lot back then, I feel like. People still do even. Yeah, it's true. But way more common back then, you're right. Now on the morning of December 23rd, the day before Christmas Eve, readers all across California were very relieved to hear that the quote unquote fox who had
absolutely terrified and terrorized them for the previous week had finally been caught. I forgot that he was referring to himself as the fox. The fox. Like, gets so fucked. It adds such a juvenile level to something so not juvenile in any way. It's very 19-year-old. It is. Like, you know...
At first, Hickman attempted to deny having anything to do with Marion's kidnapping or murder. Good luck with that. But before long, he kind of got confronted with all the fucking evidence against him, so he came up with a new story.
Before a crowd of reporters and law enforcement, he kind of proudly explained that he had been supporting himself on the money he'd made from small-time holdups, and that's when he met Andrew Kramer and June Dunning, a couple from San Diego. And he said, we just held up drugstores and places like that. But he said what he really wanted was to pull a job that would earn him about $1,500 so he could return to college in Kansas City.
which is when the three of them came up with the idea to kidnap Marion Parker. He said, I happen to remember that Mr. Parker from the bank had a daughter.
And he added that she was actually their second choice. The first one they were going to do, but they abandoned the plan, was to kidnap one of the chief officers at the bank. Wow. And I just realized that's why when he went into school, he asked for the daughter because he would see her go to the bank with him. Exactly. Because she loved to go to work with her dad. Because she would hang out with her dad because they had such a tight bond. Wow. Yeah. So he watched this man go.
Love his daughter. Have this close relationship with his daughter who loved him and adored him. And he was like, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. 12 years old. Yeah. Now, this story he just told was like partially true.
In the year leading up to the kidnapping, Hickman had been involved in several small-time armed robberies, including one where a pharmacist and a police officer were shot and seriously wounded. Oh, my goodness. But these robberies had been committed with his high school friend, Welby Hunt. Right. Not Andrew Kramer and June Dunning. And in fact, as far as anyone could tell...
They couldn't even find evidence to support that Kramer or Dunning even existed. I was waiting for that. But Hickman stuck to his story that it was Kramer, not he, who had murdered Marion. Free Seinfeld. In fact, he claimed to the Los Angeles Times, Marion and I were like brother and sister. She liked me but did not like Kramer and said she would like to stay with me all the time. No.
That's not the truth. You sewed her fucking eyes open. How dare you? Yeah, how dare you? Now, the story that he initially told investigators was bizarre and very dubious. According to Hickman, quote, he only wanted 200 or 300 out of the 1,500.
And they had planned to return the girl unharmed once the ransom was delivered. And he confessed to writing and sending the telegrams to the Parkers because, remember, he's got to make sure, oh, yeah, yeah, I told you that part, but I just didn't do the one big thing. Right. But he said he had made things seem much worse than they truly were just to get Perry Parker to act faster. Okay. Which they do believe is probably true. But in reality, he said he made it a point of making sure Marion was always safe.
She promised not to make any noise, he said. And he said, so I didn't tie her down. And we drove around all afternoon and went to a show that night at the Rialto Theater in Alhambra. Really? Yeah. They don't know if that's true. Okay. According to Hickman, it was Andrew Kramer who killed Marion.
He said once they returned from the movies, Kramer supposedly took Marion while Hickman placed that call to the Parker house. Because remember, he's setting it up so that all the things make sense that he's involved in. He did the calls and the writing. Just that one thing we can't prove. But not the murder. Yeah. So he said he made the call to the Parker house. He went to send the telegrams and Kramer took Marion. And he said when Hickman next saw Kramer at the Bellevue Arms on the 17th, Kramer was carrying a suitcase.
Okay. Okay.
It's strange. Now, that night, a California grand jury convened at 7.20 p.m., and within an hour, Superior Judge Hardy issued an extradition order and a warrant for Hickman's arrest. Chief Klein and several other leads on the case were immediately sent to Oregon to pick him up. He was ordered to be held at a Los Angeles jail cell,
without bail pending his trial. And in the meantime, reporters raced to Kansas City to get a statement from his family and friends. They were all stunned to learn of his arrest. His mother, Eva, told reporters, this is all so muddled. I've been so puzzled over it. They are hounding my boy to death just because they have a clue. I think they have a couple of clues. Also, this is a clue in a murder, ma'am. Well, that's, I'm like, just because they have a clue that your child murdered some other child? Yeah.
And she then broke down into sobs and yelled, my God, my God, they'll kill him. They'll kill him. They won't even give him a chance to say anything for himself. Which you feel for her, like that, like...
Holy shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that you're like, oh my God, I can't even imagine that being told to you. This giant thing that everyone's been following of this child who was mutilated after being kidnapped and murdered, your child did that. Yeah, no. Although they were deeply skeptical of his story, investigators in Los Angeles, you know, set out to do their due diligence and they went searching for Andrew Kramer and June Dunning. Yeah. And quickly learned that, well, maybe...
Maybe they were real people, perhaps. The people who kind of matched who they were
were definitely not murderous accomplices described by Hickman. Yeah, I figured as much. Oliver Andrew Kramer, who went by his middle name, had been an acquaintance of Hickman in Los Angeles, but he had been in prison since August 1927, and so he definitely couldn't be an accomplice in kidnapping and murder. Yep, nope. Also, Kramer did at one point have a girlfriend with the last name Dunning,
But investigators learned that June Dunning was that woman's sister. Oh, okay. Coincidentally, in their pursuit of the supposed accomplices, investigators located a second man named Frank Andrew Kramer, who also had a girlfriend named Dunning. Oh, weird. And this was just coincidence. Yeah. But her first name was Mabel, and she had died nine months earlier. Okay. Yeah.
Even more coincidentally, Frank Andrew Dunning had also been in jail since August, so he too would not be able to have helped Hickman. That's crazy. Very weird coincidence. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. 2024 has been going by so fast, but guys, one thing I'm
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When he was informed by a member of the press that his supposed accomplices had been in jail since August, and, you know, some of them did not know him. Or exist. Hickman laughed and said, when I get to Los Angeles, I want to see Kramer and would like to see the girl too. What? And then he went on to speculate that Andrew Kramer, with whom he'd been operating with, could have used the name of a man in jail, saying, that is strange, it can't be. Okay. Yeah. Chief Klein, however...
definitely openly refuted these claims. He said, the story of Hickman having an accomplice is an absolute absurdity. And he said, we previously checked out every angle of his asserted accomplice and have found the story completely false and completely weak. Yeah, it sounds that way. Now, if Edward Hickman didn't have accomplices, then that would mean that he was solely responsible for every horrible thing that happened to Marion Parker. But what everyone wanted to know was, why? Why did he do it?
It seemed impossible that he would have kidnapped, murdered, and mutilated a child for $1,500. Yeah. And if not for his reason that he said, most simply assumed that he was not sane. I mean... They were like, he has to be insane. Yeah.
In fact, even before he left Oregon for Los Angeles, Hickman himself had begun to openly question his own sanity. In his holding cell in Pendleton, Oregon, he asked a guard, and he was clearly just trying to see how he should act. He said, how does a fellow act when he's crazy? Tell me this man's didn't answer. That same guard would later tell a reporter that Hickman seemed proud of what he did.
and regarded his death notes, quote unquote, that he sent to Perry Parker as his, quote, masterpieces. Wow. Yeah. So he's just fucking deranged. He's a piece of shit.
Now, when Hickman, while he was, you know, pondering his own sanity out loud for everyone to hear, psychiatrists in Oregon very publicly refuted the notion that he was insane. According to psychiatrist Dr. W.D. McNary, who evaluated Hickman while he was being held in Oregon, he said, his mind seemed clear. He told a straight, coherent story and never was at a loss for words. There was nothing about him to indicate insanity.
That's even scarier. Now, McNary acknowledged that he had only spent a short time with Hickman. And so he said, I can't make any definitive, you know, diagnoses. Yeah. But in his opinion, he said he didn't seem to be suffering from any symptoms associated with any kind of deviancy that one would expect from a killer. Wow. He did say, he says that he does not like girls, that he is deeply religious, and that his ambition was to become a minister. Wow.
I mean, there was that weird aspect of like him questioning Perry's Christianity in there. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what that has to do with like anything else though. Now, in hindsight, it's pretty clear that Edward Hickman was enjoying the performative and dramatic aspects of the chaos that he had created. You know, the cryptic telegrams, his public declarations, like he's really feeding into it. But what's less clear is like,
What is the truth and what isn't? He's told several stories now and he's like switched them a few times. Yeah. So everybody's like, what is the fucking truth? What actually happened and why? So while in custody in Oregon, he was still, he did the same thing again. He was pondering, you know, how do crazy people act essentially? And then he said that he said out loud to another guard that he could avoid punishment by claiming that he was crazy.
And then a short time later, he all of a sudden claimed to be profoundly religious, saying that because he was captured, it must have been that God willed it. And he said if God willed it, that it had to be.
Okay. So he's literally bouncing from like almost acting proud of what he's done, claiming he did some of it, but not the murder. Uh-huh. Then saying, no, I didn't do it. And now he's saying, I'm crazy. And then he's saying, no, I'm actually super religious and God willed it. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's like, which, where are we landing here? Who are you? Like, what's going on? Maybe that's part of the problem. And obviously, I mean, people were like, maybe it's possible he believes what he's saying here. Maybe. But most people believed that were around him that the second he was arrested that he just started laying the groundwork for an insanity defense. Like,
Like it was pretty clear. Kind of seeps that way. Because he wasn't, as we'll see, he doesn't do a good job. Okay. He's a very smart man. Really? He's almost too smart to pretend to be insane. Okay. Because he's not, he's coming off too clear and too coherent and too able to organize his thoughts. Yeah.
So like his intelligence, it makes it hard for him to appear disorganized and like scattered like you would assume, like a psychiatrist would assume to see in someone who is suffering from delusions or something else. Right.
Although California common law had always allowed for an accused person to claim insanity, what's now known as diminished capacity, as their defense for their actions, before 1927, this year that we're talking about, a person...
I'm like, it's not 1927, guys. Just a brief reminder, we're not in the past. Yeah, you did not get in a time machine. Don't worry. But before 1927, a person who'd been charged with a crime didn't have the option of pleading not guilty by reason of insanity.
Huh. So basically what it meant was by claiming insanity as your defense, you had to first confess to the crime. You couldn't say, I am not guilty because I am insane. You had to say, I'm guilty because I am. You had to say, I'm insane and I'm guilty. Like, I'm guilty because I'm insane. Ah, okay.
And in 1927, isn't that interesting? Dave found that and I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that. I'm surprised we haven't come across that before. In 1927, the legislature amended the California Penal Code to allow for the plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, where the defendant is asserting that they can't be held criminally responsible for their actions because you were insane at the time that you were alleged to have committed the unlawful act.
Okay. And if that is the plea, then it's up to the judge or jury to determine whether the individual knew that their actions were illegal or immoral at the time that they did them. Okay. And if so, they must then be held accountable for this if they knew that it was illegal or immoral. Makes sense. The key distinction between the former penal code and this new amended one is that
In the newer one, they are pleading not guilty. And if the judge or jury agrees, then they effectively are acquitted. Wow. So it's like before that wasn't going to happen. Now, if the judge and jury agree that you didn't know what you were doing and you can't be held accountable, you can be acquitted. I wonder if there's anything in place for, you know, getting care afterward. Yeah.
Yeah, 1927, who knows? Yeah, maybe not then, but hopefully now. Now, Hickman at this point had already confessed to kidnapping and now killing Marion Parker. Okay. He confessed to the whole thing.
But if he entered a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity and a jury agreed, there was a good chance that he was just going to avoid punishment completely. But first, in order to do that, he had the daunting task ahead of him by... He had to convince countless law enforcement professionals and doctors that he was truly insane. Okay. Good luck. Exactly. Not actually. At the time of his arrest, Hickman appeared to have some understanding that given the amended laws now...
He could avoid responsibility for these crimes. Right. So that tells you everything right there. He knew. Yeah. If you have that understanding, I'm not going to bet money that you're insane or were at that time. He went into this knowing if I convince everybody that I'm insane, I can just go scot-free. Right. But what he didn't know was how to convince people that he was insane. That's why he's asking people. Yeah. Yeah.
His attempt to convince Dr. McNary that his crimes had been the result of his extreme religiosity, essentially. Religiosity? You know, divine command was given to him. It was completely unsuccessful. Yeah. They didn't buy it. In fact, the doctor told a reporter, I would not say that his aversion, and this is interesting, they really...
Like, because we're in the 20s, of course. Yeah. They really harp on like how he didn't like girls. Oh, okay. But with this one, he says, I would not say that his aversion to women is evidence of perversion, nor do I think that his religious convictions are so pronounced as to produce a hallucination that God willed that he commit this act. Yeah. So he's like...
I don't think he has any kind of perversions like, you know, in that sense. Right. And I don't think he's so religious that he's like hallucinating God telling him to do things. It doesn't seem like that to me either. But he's trying to convince people he is.
Now, Hickman is realizing that he couldn't convince the guards that he was insane and in fact had asked them how to act crazy, quote unquote. Which like, why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? And he's a smart guy. That's the worst part about this. And now Dr. McNary is like, no, I don't buy it either. Like, I don't buy the religious component. I don't buy any of it. Nice try. He realized I need to up my game.
So when Chief Klein and District Attorney Keyes arrived in Oregon to take Hickman back to Los Angeles, where they were going to pursue the death penalty, and he knew, Hickman started losing it. According to one reporter, he was, quote, writing on the floor of the cell in the jail, moaning, I did not kill her, I did not kill her. Then he leaped at the bars and loudly threatened to dash his brains out against the steel enclosure.
Go for it. The performance caused many people to speculate maybe he is insane. But Keyes quickly dismissed that belief, telling reporters, of course he's not insane. He's merely assuming that pose, I presume for mercy. So everybody around him was like, fuck off. Nice try.
While Hickman made his best attempt at proving and performing what he thought was insanity at the jail cell, reporters, detectives, and investigators from the DA's office started digging into his background. Because they were like, all right, you want to claim this? Let's see what we got back here. So Hickman's parents had divorced when he was 12 years old, and his mom moved him and his siblings to Kansas City, Missouri.
When he got there, he soon became a very popular student. He was a star athlete, a member of the newspaper, the yearbook committee. He was one of the strongest members of the debate team. He was perfectly well-rounded. That's so crazy. Yeah.
He had a dark side that had started showing in little bits by the time his family had arrived in Missouri. He started shoplifting around age 11. And that soon escalated to petty theft and eventually armed robbery.
Most people didn't know about the thefts and robberies. He kept it pretty under wraps, but there were still signs of like something going on. Like he had a lot of, he had honestly a lot of success after arriving at his new school. Like we talked about star athlete, debate team, yearbook, all that shit. But his first defeat in the school's oratory competition was such a crushing blow to his ego, ego,
His ego was so upset. It was such a crushing blow to his ego that...
And, like, the way he handled it was so not normal. What did he do? It was just, he couldn't handle it. Like, he couldn't get over it. It was unhealthy the way he was hanging on to it and how angry he got about it. Like, he, it was immediate rage. Like, he couldn't take the defeat. He could not take that he wasn't the best. Wow. And it immediately went into, like, rage. And...
And so, and everybody was like, okay, he's going to get over this, but he didn't. Like, he brooded on it for, like, a long time, held on to it, like, and this is just, like, him losing a competition at school. Right.
And they said, and soon there was noticeable changes in him, and they were definitely for the worse. The older he got, the more sullen, more disinterested he became. He didn't really express empathy or care for others very well. Okay. And he showed almost no interest or enthusiasm for work and often quit jobs not long after starting. Huh. And these negative traits became the norm once he met Welby Hunt and they started on their criminal career together. Yeah. Yeah.
In their robbery spree during 1926 to 1927, Hickman quickly lost any reluctance to use a gun. He was like, sure, let's go.
There was a robbery in Los Angeles where he shot and killed a pharmacist and badly wounded an LAPD officer. That was the one we talked about before. He actually killed the pharmacist. Wow. There were other incidents where he was actually suspected of murder in other situations but was never charged. During a 1927 gas station robbery in Pennsylvania...
all the way across the country, a man matching his description shot and killed the cashier. Jesus. Investigators also learned a lot from Welby Hunt, who told him on one occasion, while the two of them were staying with his family in Alhambra, Hickman told him that, quote, it was his wish to get someone and chop them up in little pieces and throw them along the highway. Oh, wow.
Okay. Yeah. It's horrifying that that's kind of what happened, like to a degree. Literally. And so investigators were looking at this and saying, huh, he is getting increasingly more violent. That is a violent statement to make. Like, it's not looking like insanity. It's looking like he's an angry and violent man. Yeah. Yeah.
Following his arrival in L.A., Hickman underwent a ton of psychological tests from a number of doctors, and all of them felt he exhibited sanity in his response to their questions about the murder and dismemberment of Marion Parker. Wow. So they think he's completely sane. That's so scary. Also, they all noted that he was very clearly intelligent, and he had an advanced communications skill set.
In fact, he seemed adept at avoiding any questions that might incriminate him or reveal criminality. He was actually pretty good at that.
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Although Hickman likely thought he was in control of the situation throughout these interviews, because that's the kind of person he is, it was really his cunning and clear-headedness during all of this that undermined his claims of insanity. Right. And just kind of, it didn't help. Like, the more, like, he thought he was, like, working around shit and being really cunning and, like, figuring it all out, they were like, yeah, we see you doing that. Right. And that's not someone who's insane. Someone who's sitting here thinking,
knowing what to pull and when to pull. Like, you know, it's like, you're so smart, Dom. Some people really are. You're so smart. You're a smart ass. You're dark. So...
It was during this time that Hickman began to make up a story that he would use in his defense in court. It was the story that he would really hang on to, at least through court. When asked directly by one of the psychiatrists whether he believed he was insane, Hickman responded, I don't think I'm insane. It was claimed for me.
And he went on to explain in writing. He said,
So he's trying to come off cray-cray.
Apparently, so that I don't know if that's that's weird. And I don't know what he's really saying there. So luckily, they they also felt that way at first. They were like, we need to clarify this a little bit. They did eventually figure out what he was trying to say. But what the defense his defense was that he kidnapped, murdered and mutilated Marion Parker because a God that he referred to as Providence had commanded him to do that.
Okay. That's what that was saying. All right. Yeah, sure. A very long-winded way of saying that. On January 3rd, 1928, Hickman appeared in California Supreme Court with his attorney, Jerome Walsh, where, as expected, he entered a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.
And for the first time since his arrest, he seemed to be taking it seriously finally. Because before this, he seemed like he was just going to dance all around and get out of this through his own cunning. Now he kind of felt like he was like, I don't know if it's working. He's like, doesn't look like it's working on my on my behalf. He was just staring the entire time at the floor. The only time he spoke was when the judge asked if he understood that his plea constituted an admission of guilt.
And he said yes. Yeah. A trial date was set for January 25th, and the judge, hoping to expedite the trial, exercised his right to examine the jury members himself rather than go through the whole jury selection process that would definitely delay the trial because there would be so many objections by the defense. Yeah.
The judge's decision to examine the jurors, the prospective jurors on his own, it was probably good because after a month of dense news coverage, there was no one in California who hadn't formed a pretty strong opinion of this case. But that wasn't the only thing working against the defense. Hickman had now changed crucial parts of his story multiple times, which meant his credibility was just shot. Zilch. Yeah, it was just shit.
When he was arrested, he claimed he had participated in the kidnapping as a means of getting money for college, but he was emphatic that it was his accomplice, Andrew Kramer, who had murdered Marion Parker. Once the existence of the accomplices had been disproven, he said, oh yeah, just kidding, and changed his story, and now claimed that he was insane and had committed the kidnapping and murder himself and the mutilation all by himself, but at the behest of
Of Providence. Of some god he called Providence. Okay. So finally, it seemed that it was like, it was really his own hubris that seemed to be working against him. Because in his attempts, like I said, to manipulate all the doctors and law enforcement professionals, which he was like, oh, I've got this. Heckman had just undermined his own claims of insanity by being entirely coherent and having no disordered thinking at all. Right.
In fact, nearly every doctor who evaluated him said not only was he incredibly intelligent, but he didn't associate any symptoms of psychotic thinking. He said he wasn't even good at faking it. He didn't even seem stressed. Like he was just totally coherent and fine. It's like, dude, if Providence is asking all these things of you, you might be a little stressed. You might be under a little bit of, you know, a little bit of stress. A little bit of something. Yeah.
Now, the trial began January 25th, 1928 at the Hall of Justice in downtown Los Angeles, which I was like, wow, what a name. The Hall of Justice. The Hall of Justice.
Sounds like something in a superhero movie. It does. It really does. But there was like a massive, very unruly and very angry mob. I believe it. Just camped out. And the trial was immediately halted when, in response to a motion filed by the defense, Judge Carlos Hardy agreed to step down due to what the defense claimed was his bias and prejudice.
The case was reassigned to Judge J.J. Tabuco, and the defense immediately objected to him as well, but he refused to step down and instead began jury selection in the case. Also, find a fucking person that's not going to have any bias in this case. You murdered a 12-year-old, dismembered her, and sewed her eyes open. Shut the fuck up.
And Judge Hardy was right to take on the, you know, the job of going through the prospective jurors. Yeah. Because the jury selection took nearly a week just to get the first set. Figured out. Wow. The case finally began on February 2nd, like actually began. Since Hickman had already confessed to the kidnapping and murder at this point, the stated purpose of the trial was really just to determine his sanity and pass the sentence. Right.
Before reading the indictment, Judge Tribuco reminded the jury of the standard of accountability and declared their purpose.
As this, had the party sufficient mental capacity to appreciate the character and quality of the act, did he know and understand that it was a violation of the rights of another and in itself wrong? If he had the capacity to appreciate the character and comprehend the possible or probable consequences of his act, he is responsible to the law for the act thus committed and is to be judged accordingly.
Now, the prosecutor, D.A. Asa Keys, I think it's Asa, A-S-A. Okay. Yeah, I would say Asa. He clearly articulated the state's theory that it was vengeance that motivated Hickman to kill, not mental illness. Agreed. They actually brought out the, which nobody knew up until this point, that Perry Parker was one of the people who testified against him at the hearing over his forged checks. Oh.
Oh, shit. And as a result, they theorized that he devised this horrific scheme to get back at the bank and Parker was just one of those that was caught up in it by kidnapping his daughter and killing her. Also, the plan had never truly been about money at all.
In fact, by the time Hickman called to arrange for the second exchange, Marion was already dead. Right. So they were like, I think it was mostly revenge. He's a piece of shit. Wow. Now, the first witness called to testify was Detective Lieutenant Richard Lucas, who was among the detectives sent to Oregon to transport Hickman back to L.A.,
Lucas said that among other things, Hickman had been particularly interested in whether the detective thought he would qualify for the insanity defense. Imagine that. He said, There it is. Yeah.
Marion's teacher, Mary Holtz, was also called to testify, but she had become so emotionally and physically fragile at this time that she actually needed her husband's assistance to even reach the witness stand. Oh, wow. So I meant it when I said she shouldered the weight of what had happened there.
She told the story of the day Marion was abducted and told the jury, Oh, I can think of many things I could have done now. I never would have let Marion go but for the apparent sincerity and disarming manner of this man.
As with the doctors and other experts that followed, her testimony only demonstrated more that this guy, he was far from a raving lunatic that they're all trying to make him out to be. Yeah, he's 19 years old. And like I said, I think in part one, he was able to convince this woman in a position of, you know, like authority that,
he was fine to go take this girl. And it only proved further that he had been very lucid and very calculating and that this plan was meticulously done and performed. Right.
The day also included graphic crime scene photos, including photos of Marion's body. Oh, wow. Which caused one of the female jurors to collapse and they had to recess. Acting on behalf of Hickman was Jerome Walsh, like we said, who offered into evidence a handwritten confession that was done by Hickman during his transport from Oregon. Okay. They read it aloud in court. And it said, I wish to explain in full the motives which prompted me to commit the crime.
He insisted the murder was in no way an act of vengeance. And he said one, the motives were one, fear of detection by the police. That literally is ding, ding, ding. Sane. Sane.
in beliefs that to kill and dissect the body, I would be able to evade suspicion and arrest. Sane. I had warned PM Parker to keep the case secret and private, but this he was not reasonably able to do, so that the great publicity and search which followed caused me to use what I considered the greatest precaution in protecting myself.
Two, Marion had a strong confidence in me for her own safety, and I considered her own wish to return to her father Saturday morning too deeply. However, my desire to secure the money and return to college were even greater. I knew that if I refused to take her back Saturday morning, she might distrust me enough to give me some sign, which would cause my discovery.
Three, for several years I had a peculiar complex. I have had an uncontrollable desire to commit a great crime. I believe that it borders on the edge of insanity and that it comes off as a weird relief from seriousness and deep thought and found a means of expressing itself in the Parker case.
Okay. Literally all three of those. Sane, sane, sane, sane. Are giant booming green flags of sanity. Right. Like you planned this entire thing. You had everything mapped out. Jerome Walsh, which I'm like, what were you thinking? He entered the handwritten confession to try to like prove his insanity? Yeah.
But it just did the exact opposite. Each of these motives clearly indicates that he knew he was legally and morally doing something wrong and that he'd only done it to not be detected, to not be caught. And also the document reintroduces the previously abandoned story about wanting the money to return to school.
While only making a very vague allusion to the, you know, profound religiosity that led him to commit the murder. Yeah. The confession was further undermined by at least one of the evaluating psychiatrists who told the press that in his discussions with Hickman, he had rejected the confession entirely. So it's like...
make sense. None of it. Like, they're not helping themselves. This is zany. They're looking more like they need to, like, be seen by a doctor than anything else. It's like, what's going on? Like, you're not making this at all a coherent trial. Not at all. And so Jerome Walsh, in his client's defense, called several witnesses to try to establish a long history of instability. Hickman's father, Thomas Hickman, explained that his ex-wife, Eva, had always been melancholy.
and had a difficult time when she was pregnant with Edward. Pregnancy is pretty hard. Yeah. Had a difficult time when she was pregnant? In the 20s, probably even harder. Yeah. He told the jury there was part of the time that she did not know anything. She always imagined that there was something badly wrong with her.
Okay. And it's okay. And so Walsh is trying, he also cited his history of criminality and unusual behavior, not being able to get over supposed losses. And he was trying to establish that Hickman had been raised in an unstable and overly religious household. Okay. Um, because apparently he had a very religious grandfather and he claimed that the influence was wild. Um,
But at best, the testimony and depositions from previous classmates just made him seem very intelligent and maybe a little quirky. I was going to say like intelligent to a fault. Yeah.
Among the least helpful witnesses called by the defense was Dr. Scoog. Scoog. Scoog, one of the psychiatrists who evaluated Edward following his arrest. I'm sorry, I keep referring to him as like Edward and William. His name is William Edward. But he goes by Edward. He goes by both. Yeah. Usually I'll just call him Hickman. Reading from a transcript of an interview Scoog conducted with Hickman, Scoog's deposition was...
Probably intended to validate that Hickman believed in this Providence God, quote unquote. But the back and forth between Hickman and Skoug was probably more confusing for the jury than it did to help the case at all. Because before leaving the stand, Skoug concluded that Hickman's visions of Providence stemmed from a grandiose delusion that was common in paranoid schizophrenics.
So now he's saying that he's a paranoid schizophrenic. That's a big leap. But before that...
He had so confused the jury and made no sense and connected nothing. And then was just like, he's probably a paranoid schizophrenic. See you later, guys. And just like lets us stand. See you later, guys. So the jury was like, I don't even know what you just said. Like, that makes no sense to us. Yeah, what? It's wild. So also of note was the extent of time that the defense and the various psychiatrists spent on Hickman's sexuality.
And this is strange because according to the coroner, Marion's body showed no evidence of sexual assault. Nor had anyone claimed that Hickman or anyone else had sexually assaulted her at any time. But during the trial, a considerable and very uncomfortable amount of time was devoted to Hickman's sexual interests, his masturbatory habits...
His sexual experiences with women? Weird. She wasn't sexually assaulted. Well, I was wondering why it even came out. Why are we talking about it? Like, at one point, it was like, it doesn't appear he even likes girls. And it's like, okay. Why does that matter right now? Well, he didn't assault her in that way. So it's like, why are we talking about that? Well, it's just like in the Heavenly Creatures episode. It made me think of that. Yeah, where it's just like, it's not a sexually motivated crime. Yeah. Yeah.
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According to one of his Kansas City school friends, Hickman, quote, had a number of sweethearts while in school, but he never ran around with girls. And they're all like reporting this in like the New York Times and shit. And it's like, that's also conflicting itself. He had a number of sweethearts, but he didn't go around with them. Like, but then where did he go with them? And we sit here and we're like, to us, this is wild and just like, what? Like, very confusing. Yeah.
But at this point in history, mental illness, particularly when it resulted in crimes against children, was often conflated with sexual deviance. So many Americans, including medical professionals at this time, would assume that there had to be a sexual component of Hickman's psychosis here. So they would like basically think they had to shoehorn this in. Right. Because it's just... To explain why. It has to go hand in hand. You don't kill a child unless there's a sexual component to it, which I'm like...
What? Is the component in the room with us? Like, what are we talking about here? Especially when it's like, no, the coroner is saying there wasn't that. So, like, why are we shoehorning it in? It's strange. But again, it's of the time, very much so. Yeah. Now, the hearing came to a conclusion. And that probably also...
Sorry, I cut myself off. That probably also didn't help to stop the jury from being so fucking confused by all this. Yeah. Because they're like... This doesn't really have a place here, so why are we even talking about it? From what it looks like, the prosecution has...
has kind of like given out a very coherent, pretty straightforward case. Yeah. This seems to be revenge. Hey, look, he has a history of crimes and violence. Yeah. We have people here who say he actually fantasized and said he has a dream of cutting someone up and throwing their body parts along the highway. And by his own omission, he wanted to, to,
do like a great crime. Yeah. Like carry out a great crime. And it's like, and he clearly has some violent tendencies, like looks like it just, he wanted, he said himself, he wanted the money. So it all kind of adds up. Right. Here it is. And then the defense is like, oh no, we got it. And then the defense makes like 40,000 different claims that all contradict each other and are confusing as hell of like, is he like, does he have religious mania? Does he not?
Is he a paranoid schizophrenic? Is he not? Do you think that was the goal, though, of the defense? I think it might have been to confuse the jury. But I think it backfired greatly on them because it's just not a coherent case that they've tried to prove here. But I could see, I could very much see that being the goal all along. I think that's all they had. I think other than, they didn't have anything. Like, they had to just confuse the jury because other than that, it's pretty black and white. Like, I don't know...
the motive still seems fuzzy because, like, who the fuck does that as, like, revenge? Who the fuck does that for money? Like, people do crazy shit for money in revenge. But I think part of it is, like,
At this time in history, too, no one could understand... People just do these things sometimes. That he just did this. Yeah. And that he's a fucked up monster. Right. And that there isn't a true motive behind it. Maybe there was little things, like he was pissed that he got...
fired from the bank. And maybe he did want to, but he just wanted to ruin someone's life. And he also, he just wanted to take someone's life. Yeah, take someone's life to ruin someone's life. And you even were saying, like, in the beginning, how much he liked talking about it and everything. I think he wanted that notoriety, whether it be good or bad. Exactly. And the hearing came to a conclusion in mid-February, with both sides giving very impassioned closing statements. Walsh told the jury the defense.
Jesus. My God.
Now, this is a graphic description, obviously. Oh, yeah. And so Walsh's graphic description of the actions was supposed to convey to the jury that in order for him to have committed this kind of heinous, heinous act, he had to be profoundly delusional. No sane person would do this.
But the prosecution was like, no. Like, I'm not letting that go without a challenge. So Keyes said in his closing argument, a lot of people say they can't understand how Hickman could have committed such a crime if he was in his right mind. He is a criminal. He is a bad man. He is a man without a soul, without a conscience, without a heart. He is not an all-American boy. He is an American criminal who, with the aid of your verdict, the state of California will purge from its borders. Boom. And I say...
Keys. Keys for the win. That was a good one. Yeah. Now, there had been...
Many criminals throughout the state's history and many of them had committed heinous acts like Hickman's. And as far as he was concerned, they weren't insane either. He said they're just evil. Not everyone has like some kind of defect that we can label with a diagnosis. Like some people are just fucked. Some people don't have a conscience and they don't have a heart and they don't have a soul. They're just fucking damaged goods. And this is one of these people and we got to get them off the fucking street.
A little after 2.20 p.m. on February 14th, Valentine's Day, Judge Tribucco dismissed the jury for deliberations. But before he did, he reminded them of their purpose. He said, you are to determine what the condition of the defendant's mind was at the precise time of the commission of the acts charged in the indictment. Its condition before or afterward is only to be considered by you for the purpose of throwing light upon its state of the commission of said acts.
The jury deliberated for 43 minutes before returning with their verdict. Wow.
Hickman was sane when he kidnapped and killed Marion Parker, and for that, he was sentenced to death. Good. After hearing the decision, the judge addressed the prisoner. For the kidnapping, he sentenced Hickman to the term provided by the law, and for the first-degree murder of Marion Parker, the judge sentenced him to death by hanging at San Quentin Prison with a tentative date of April 27, 1928, and then said, and may God have mercy on your soul.
May he not. May he not. Hickman showed no emotion when he was handed over to the sheriff's deputies and taken out of the courtroom. When the crowd of nearly 2,000 spectators outside heard the outcome, a giant cheer rose through the air. That's amazing. Now, Jerome Walsh immediately filed a motion for a new trial. He wanted to try to do this again? Yeah, a motion for an arrest of judgment. They were both quickly denied.
Following the denial, the defense filed an appeal with the California Supreme Court on Hickman's behalf, arguing that when he was forced to plead and to go to trial under the form of procedure now prescribed by the penal code of this state and the procedure to be followed after the plea, he was deprived of his constitutional right to a trial by jury.
Now, according to Hickman's lawyers, their client had confessed to participating in the kidnapping, but always said he was innocent when it came to the murder. Not always. Not always. By entering a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, he was forced to plead guilty to both crimes, and they said that violated his rights. The justices considered the argument, but ultimately rejected their appeal on the grounds that the state's constitution only guarantees that the citizens of the state shall have an opportunity to be tried by a jury.
By entering a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, he knew the two charges would be considered together and that the hearing could result in him being sentenced to death. There you go. They were also unwilling, the justices were unwilling, to consider an argument calling into question the newly passed law allowing for such a plea. During this period, a separate trial was held where Hickman and Welby...
his friend there, were tried for the murder of Ivy Toms during the robbery of the drugstore in February 1926. I was waiting to hear if something happened from that. The jury deliberated briefly and then found them both guilty. Good. But at that point, Hickman had already been sentenced to die, so it was kind of a moot point, but like...
Glad to have had it on the books. Yeah, and Welby at least had to pay for what he did. Exactly. By the fall of 1928, Walsh had exhausted every single appeal available for his client, and Hickman's execution was scheduled for October 19th.
At this point, like most, he had embraced the Roman Catholic faith in jail suddenly out of nowhere. And he sent a letter to chief of police for Los Angeles on October 13th, where he confessed to additional crimes.
including five robberies and the theft of several automobiles in the city between 1926 and 1927. What a stand-up guy. According to Hickman, the additional confessions were, quote-unquote, the Christian thing to do, and he wanted to get right with God before he went to the gallows. You...
She kidnapped a 12-year-old, held her captive for multiple days, killed her after giving her the hope that she was going to be reunited with her family again, dismembered her body, sewed her eyes open, and then put makeup on her. Put makeup on her. Sorry, I can't forget that. And then drove her to her father and threw her out your passenger door.
And you're talking about the Christian thing to do? Fuck off into the sun. Oh, and then drove a little ways away and threw her arms and legs into various places. Fuck off into the sun. I gotta get right with God. I'm like, isn't that kind of like cramming for the final exam like three minutes before the test? Yeah, I'm like, if there is a God, I don't think he wants you. I don't know about that. Sorry. I don't know about that.
On the morning of October 19th, a little after 10 a.m., he was led from his cell at San Quentin and taken to the gallows that had been assembled in the yard before a crowd of nearly 200 people. Oh, wow, they were still doing crowds. Yeah. And what's funny is for about a year, you know, the press had labeled him the fox, and he had labeled himself the fox, this diabolical genius. Yes.
And they had been talking about how cunning he was and blah, blah, blah. But a lot of people in the crowd were like, wow, he doesn't look like the fox right now. Where's the fox? The young man standing before them at the gallows was not the raving monster or this cunning fox that they talked about, but a white-faced boy of 20. And they mean white-faced like all the blood has rushed out of his face and he is about to pass out. And oh, he does pass out because he's a little bitch. Yeah.
There it is. Now, according to one reporter, he seemed very young as the hush of death silenced the assembly, gazing up at the human being who was about to die. He trembled as he was positioned over the trap door and basically collapsed when the hood was placed over his head, like literally fainted.
Then at 10.10 a.m., the noose was placed around his neck and the lever was pulled. The trapdoor opened and he was supposed to be sent to his death. But according to the press, Hickman's collapse just before the door opened broke somewhat the force of the fall at the end of the rope. His neck apparently failed to break and Hickman strangled to death for nearly 10 minutes.
They witnessed as his body twitched and convulsed before it was finally pronounced dead at 1025 a.m. The poetic justice. I'm saying. Because if you recall, she was strangled. Yep. Yep. Thank you for bringing that back because, I mean. Tell me karma's not a thing.
And in fact, during this whole thing, multiple spectators fainted. Wow. Because Anna Gard threw water on them to bring them back up. Oh my goodness. Sounds like it was like so chaotic. A little cray cray. Now, after all, everything, everything. Now he's dead. He's gone. A whole year had gone by with them reporting this like round the clock.
Hickman died without ever honestly explaining why he kidnapped, murdered, and mutilated Marion Parker.
I don't know that there was a reason. I agree with you. A genuine black and white reason. Yeah, I don't think he had one reason. I think it lived in the gray. He wanted to, and there was some reasons that he felt justified it. Yeah. In his own sick mind. And not sick in that way, but like sick. Like twisted. I agree. And that is the horrifying tale with at least an ending that has some justice to it.
of the kidnapping, murder, and mutilation of Marion Parker. So sad. It is. Wow.
But, and what it, it's like the trial got so wily. Yeah. And he tried so hard watching him fight for that insanity defense while fucking it up for himself at any turn. Because he wanted to get back out there on the streets and do what he wanted to be able to do again. Was good at armed robberies and murder. Exactly. He would have done something again. 100%. There's no doubt in my mind. Probably something worse if you're capable of that. He was only 19. My God. Yeah. This guy's only 19. He was definitely going to be doing something again. Sad that.
that it took that to catch him. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's one of the more fucked up cases we've ever covered. Yeah. Well, with that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like...
I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah.
No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical.
Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.
