The Metamorphosis of Pete Hegseth
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from the york times. I mac a borrow. This is a daily.

Now that magic says withdrawn for consideration as a tourney general down trump's most controversial cabinet pic is this selection of pete hex up as secretary of defense today. My calling day phillips on the three major diplomats that shaped how hacks said views the military and why, if confirmed, he's so dead set on disrupting its leadership.

It's tuesday, november twenty sex. Dave, welcome back. It's been a long time for me since we've last spoken, and it's nice to see your face 啊。

So when IT .

comes to the subject of what we're going to be talking about today, down trumps pick for secretary of defense pede heggs f, what's probably best known about him at this point is that he faces a very serious accusation of sexual, so which we will return to within this conversation, right? And on top of that, that he lacks the traditional background for becoming secretary defense. His latest job was as a fox news host, but what's less well understood is what exactly he thinks about the united states military, which he may soon command based on his own experience as a member of the armed forces. And you have been trying to figure that out.

Yeah I mean, that's the big question for me. If he gets the job, what does he want to do and why? And the reason I ask is he does not have a lot of traditional washington experience.

He spent almost twenty years in uniform and he deployed three times. He's been to iraq. He's been to, but most of his experience is just leading small groups of troops on the ground.

He's never worked in the panic gon. He doesn't have a lot of time at big defense contractor. So he doesn't have some of the traditional experience that Normally the road to this type of job. And that's important because if he is confirmed, he's going to have to manage nearly three million employees and an annual budget of almost a trillion dollars.

We'll tell us about those deployments. And I guess going back even further, how and why hag eh went into the military and how, taken together, all those views are likely to shape the kind of defense department he would lead yeah.

So he grew up in minnesota, has a very traditional church growing conservative childhood. And then he goes to prince university and there too. He's kind of an outspoken conservative in fact, he joins the university conservative political journal, which is called the printed tory, and write a lot of really provocative essays.

So of taking on the issues of the day ah your modern feminism, homosexuality and is really hard right on a lot of this stuff. And he arrives there in nineteen ninety nine. So while all of this is going on, the attacks of september eleven happened.

And so another hot political topic that comes right up to the top is how does amErica respond to that stuff? And he really becomes outspoken in support of military innoventions, not just in afghanistan, but also in iraq. And IT should be said that this is not a academic, because halfway through his college career, he joined R O, T, C.

And as soon as he graduated from frinton in two thousand and three, he became an army officer. So he knew he could be going to war. But he had faith that that was the right thing to do.

So he's very much a line, he would seem, with the republican leadership of the united states in that era. I was in college during this period to each George w. Bush, and he is making the case for war and asking as many americans as are willing to sign up and do the patriotic thing and bring the war that at come to the states on september eleven back to the places where those attacks allegedly began.

That right? So he puts on the uniform as that the national guardsmen, and he gets sent to guantanamo.

and reminded us what's happening at guantanamo bay at this early stage, in those two wars of constant in iraq.

So at this point in two thousand four, the prisoner is only about two years old. It's been very hastily set up as a place to store terror suspects until the military can figure out what to do with them. And the idea is that the military is going to set up a commission and they are going to charge and prosecute folks, and very quickly reach outcomes, probably convictions and IT will be dealt with.

And pete hag said, this kind of a low level administrator, he is a platoon n leader, but also does a lot of paper expends a lot of time at a desk. And later he describes his sapp intent as a long, boring duty. In fact, I think the only thing that happened that's not worthy to him is that he saw a lack of action.

Do you mean? Well, here's this. Prison has been set up to deal with all these suspects, some of whom are very dangerous.

And what he sees is not convictions. He sees the process going from swift to slow to essentially a standstill. Remember, there were hundreds of terror suspects there at the time, almost none of them everyone to trial. So here we are, almost twenty years later, and thing's happened.

And if you're Peter hacks, if if you're somebody motivated, as he was to sign up after september, even to avenge this horribly act that has killed more than three thousand americans, being there on the ground and knowing that just over those walls is a process that's grading and not really going anywhere is probably very frustrated.

Yeah, here's a died in the world believer who volunteer and put on the uniform to help and nothing's happening is very frustrating. And I think he goes home kinda disappointed.

Did you mention multiple employment? So where does access end up next after one animal?

Yeah so he comes back from guanta feeling like he didn't early achieve very much and he's watching the news. And this is two thousand five. And so iraq, which was supposed to be an easy and quick Victory by that point, is really falling apart. And he feels like, again, here's a chance for him to step in and help. And so he volunteers, and he joins the hundred and first airborne division as a inventory patton's leader.

And he goes to iraq. And what is experience there?

He arrives on the ground, and what is essentially a mess that's getting worse every day. What had been a relatively swift invasion is now curdled into sector fighting, into roadside bombs everywhere, into mounting american casualties and the inventory troops that are on the ground like him. They're supposed to fix that and he realizes how difficult that's going to be because he's getting some very conflicting instructions.

What example?

So lawyers in the army who are giving a briefing to him and all the soldiers that he's arriving with tell him essentially, hey, look, the rules are very strict. You cannot fire on an iraqi even if you see them with a rocket launcher, unless that rocket launcher is actually pointed.

You on the other side is some of the leadership in his brigade combat commanders who are saying you should expect to fire on pretty much any military age mail and you don't even need to give warning shots. wow. So he's got some people saying, don't fire until IT too late. Some people say fire way too soon. And you know, he's a Young inventory guy who's leading forty soldiers who trying to figure this out.

who advice as he ultimately take what is his conduct?

This is really interesting. He took a very moderate and measured approach. He's like OK.

We're just gonna really careful. We don't want to shoot anyone. We don't need to, because that's just gonna us. So many more enemies in a war there were trying to end and so not only did he tell his soldiers, hey, we're not gona shooting less, we're sure, but he volunteered to be the first one through the door on raise.

They would go on because he didn't want to put that really difficult decision in the hands of some twenty one, twenty two year old soldier who might make a rh decision. And people who serve with him that I interviewed say he was flaws, careful, cared about what he did, and his soldiers loved him for him. But something happens right after he leaves his inventory company.

There's a big Operation is called iron triangle. And his inventory company, not his platoon on specifically, but other platoon ons that are in the same little military group are going after an uncertain target and they end up shooting some civilians and executing some captives. And they were charged with crimes because in the military, if you go beyond the rules of engagement and kill someone who shouldn't be killed, and you're definitely not allowed to kill captives, that's murder. At the time, pete hack sets was really clearly about how he felt about this. You know, this will become important later in his career, but he was very outspoken, saying this is wrong, it's not the right way to do things, and recalled atrocities and made .

clear that those are lines that you can't cross, not just because there are lines, but because they're deeply counterproductive.

Yeah, he becomes a big believer during his time in iraq in with military calls, counter insurgency, which is a fancy word for, rather than shooting the iraqis, let's help them rebuild their society. It's stuff like sore systems, electrical, setting up the city councils so that cities connectives run. And he worked daily on those projects and and had a lot of success.

And by the time he came home from iraq in two thousand and six, he was a huge believer in counter insurgency. Is going on T, V. He's speaking in panels. He's making a public case that, hey, we need to double down on this strategy.

The strategy we're pursuing now, a counterinsurgency strategy implemented by general David betrays is finally the right strategy to be using in that country.

We at the time, like the america, was kind of soaring on iraq. People were talking about pulling out, and he very .

clearly stood national elections. And all of those things are incredible.

We need more troops there, but we need to do that, right?

Not only do I see a security forces that were stronger, but I SAT in on a city council meeting where I watched eighteen members of the samara city council debate for four hours, issues like electricity, water, sewage, rebuilding of of civic buildings.

Let's do counterinsurgency help these people rebuild. And in doing so, we will help ourselves because we will create a stable nation that will no longer be a breeding ground for violence.

So as a pretty low ranking veteran of the war in iraq, he somehow finds himself on TV advocating for specific approaches to these.

Yeah, because he comes with a perspective of a joe and uniform who has real ground combat experience. And he say, and look, i've seen these efforts work. Let's double down on this.

And he's such a believer. He volunteers for a third time in two thousand eleven, this time to afghanistan. And when he gets there, he's doing what he's advocating for.

His job is to be a teacher at a counter insurgency school where he will teach these methods to the officers at the afghan army. But unfortunately, his timing, there is a lot like his timing in guantanamo. He's getting there right when the situation is twisting towards this function.

By two thousand twelve, the united states military has decided it's going to pull out of afghanistan slowly but surely. And one of the first turnovers that happens is that pete hagit turns over his counter insurgency school to the afghan government. And this effort that he's worked very hard on within a year, two IT falls apart, right? Which.

of course, this comes a metaphor for the entire conflict in afghanistan. By the end, the taliban will return, take over american basis, take over american mess halls and tanks and equipment, and turn the entire U. S. War there into an exercise in futility.

right? And so that pete hig has final deployment. So in three appointments, he's seen three different flavors of pentagon, this function. And so pretty much his entire adult life has been spent on this effort that has come to nothing.

And in fact, the only thing that he really has seen the military very expeditiously and successfully do is you remember those folks that I said were in his inventory company that got charged with war crimes? I do. They were very quickly tried and convicted.

And so he saw successful prosecutions against his own guys, guys that had been put in very, very difficult positions, but he had never seen any successful prosecutions against the people who were detained. A guanta na mo him, his front seat at all of this disfunction really left him in bitter, you know, he started out as a patria who wanted to join the effort. And he left feeling like the people leading the military did not know what they were doing.

right? And the only people who he saw being held accountable to any kind of process, or where is on guide, being punished by their own government.

That's right. In the years afterwards, his experience really distill into a view where he's deeply supportive of the people who went and tried to make things work in iraq and afghanistan and deeply, deeply distrustful of the leadership that made IT all fall apart. And that informs his views as his platform becomes bigger and bigger.

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Hi, it's molick art from new york times cooking, and i'm in the kitchen with some of our team. I want to know what everyone's making .

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So theyve, what does this bigger platform for? Pete, texas views of the military look like in the years after he leaves the service.

So we searched working for washing, D, C, based veterans groups that push for all sorts of stuff, continued involved in in iraq, afghanistan. Better care for that through the V, A. And as part of that efficacy, he's repeatedly appearing on T V. And I think IT becomes pretty clear by about two thousand and fourteen.

and he's good at T V.

The troops have not been a priority of the left. They are not a priority of the left.

And do you think that depending gans becoming too .

politically correct, well, IT certainly is not helpful with. We've got a military trying more to be politically correct than the biggest military in the world. You can spend Better ideas.

Inner of themselves don't inevitably Carry the day. Ultimately, big guns and courageous people who Carry them are the ones who Carry the day. And right now.

at this point.

let's ask our fox news contribute. Pete tex. A P. Good morning.

Good morning. Thanks for help me. He gets his first official position with fox news as part time contributor, and he starts getting more and more time. He becomes a presenter. He eventually becomes a weekend host. And as time and fox is a real mix of what he was doing at prince in years before, sort of like provocative cultural war type of conservative stuff. And speaking out for version, you think women .

should not be in combat rules correct? Because I think inevitably the standards will eventually be eroded by bureaucrats or by political keys.

Talks about getting women out of combat roles in the military. He complains about how voguish has taken over the general core and know a lot of the leaders are D. I. hires.

In that case, you're not improving or fighting capability necessary.

You feel Better about yourself.

And this is a story we've covered extensively on this program. Many of our nation's warriors are finding themselves in trouble for doing the job they were hired to do, fight the war and kill the enemy.

He does something he's never really done before, which is speaking out on behalf of soldiers and other service members who have been charged with war crimes.

As a war fighter, you assume that your military will have your back. Instead, they come after you.

absolutely always .

framed in like, hey, this was a good person trying to do their job, and in the fog of war, forced to make a split second decision. They did the wrong thing, and now the military trying to hang them for IT. And that's not fair.

What is the biggest charge you may face and what the lightest charge may face? There's only one charge and that's premeditation.

Urd IT started out with an army Green berry named matt golden am had been accused of executing a suspected taliban bomb. Ker and IT grew to include when Lance brand new .

portunus is to un. To fire on the men in the motorcycle. They're killed. He's charged with murder because there's no weapons found on those individuals.

Uh, Young lootenant named clinton warrants who had been convicted of shooting civilians in afghanistan.

So let's right now bring in for his first exclusive internatio al Operation chief edy gallagher.

his wife, and and probably the best known is navy seal, Edward gallery, who'd been turned in by his own platoon for allegedly shooting at women and children in iraq and executing a captive. right?

And did this is a story that you have told several times on our show as the saga of edible allah er has played out.

Yeah, this was the first time that pete hacks have came across my radar because he was inviting these people on people whose cases I had written about. And honestly, I looked at a pretty dumb founded because I can absolutely understand the idea. Hey, i'm gonna stand by the ground troops and give them the benefit of the doubt. But what really complicates that is that in a number of these cases, these folks have been turned in by their own platoon. The people who understood the fog of war and the situation on the ground more than anyone else, had looked at what had happened and been like, man, that mess up, and had turned them in right?

Other words, they had crossed lines. And the eyes of those who are on the ground with them. And pete X F, doesn't seem interested in those nuances in his mind. It's kind of like amErica write or wrong, and I refuse to accept the day anything wrong.

right? And what's really interesting about that is he knows all about these new answer because he's been a little tenant leading ground troops in iraq, and he has seen his own guys be prosecuted for this stuff. And at the time, before he was on fox, he said very clearly, hey, this is wrong. IT hurts us more than that helps us. But fast forward to when he's on fox, and that's no longer the case.

What how do you account for that change? Because in your reporting, you seem to find very clear evidence that heg us when the idea of these war crimes first emerges is very unsympathetic. Those who have allegedly committed them now of a sudden he's not interested in the nuances, and he basically just want to make sure these guys is get off scot free.

Yeah, I think that three employment ts just made him lose so much faith and so much trust in the pentagon that he no longer believed that the leadership could make good decisions or fair decisions towards the people on the ground. CNN has learned that a fox and news host encouraged president trump to consider parts for some military members accused of war crimes. So hag said, and president trump basically become a two men military court.

not war criminals, their war years, who have now been accused of certain things that are under review.

where he puts the cases up and trump makes .

the decisions and trump soldiers connections to major mathew gold stein, who you see there on the left, accused of killing a suspected bomb maker who was not illegal .

friend now Lawrence was released friday from the U. S. Military prison for eleven worth in kansas.

Tonight, president in trump, intervening again to defend in battled navy sea el chief at gallagher, saying he will not let the navy strip galaxy as a seal.

I shock up for three great warriors against the deep state.

So what clearly starts to take form here is a partnership, a direct pipeline between hegseth and trump. And I supose, you have to add on top of that, the fact that hex us view of post nine eleven us interventions, iraq and afghanistan, is the solution. Man with them is very much shared my truth, who is so openly disdainful of how the U.

S. Military leadership and even civilian elected leadership entered those wars and conducted those words. So IT does not seem at all like a surprise that hack if would be his choice to be a senior figure in the military service of .

defence well. And remember, during trans first term, he classed repeatedly with various generals who are in his administration, including secretary James mattis, who now hates president from called them unfit to be president. And so president trump and pete hags that both share this disdain for you, the military establishment. And so when trump looks around for someone who shares his view and connect, who has some military experience but is also deeply mistrustful of the military, you, pete hack, that is his natural choice.

But what has become clear in the day since trump pict hags off to be his secretary defense is that neither trump nor those around him seemed to know about some of the alleged problematic personal conduct that takes us engaged in since becoming a fox neist.

That's right. There's some episode des that really call into question his judgment. He actually had a baby with a producer in two thousand seventeen, a fox news producer while he was married that same year, he was accused of sexual assault by a woman who he had sex with at a conservative political convention in california.

Police investigated, they didn't file charges. He says IT was consensual. But a few years later, he paid her and undisclosed amount of money as part of a settlement over this.

In addition, during president biden, inigo ation pete texts was removed from what would have essentially been a security detail there, because another person in his national guard unit who had seen some of his tattoos, a letter to the coming and saying, hey, these tattoos are related to White supremacy and Christian nationalism. And this guy, pete, takes that maybe an insider threat. ha. And so he was removed from that detail now, a couple years later, actually this year, pete haggith left the national guard, but he has said publicly, like I was forced out over that, essentially like they pulled me out of that he feels he was targeted and IT was unfair. But all this to say that there are a number of things that really are raising eyebrows about this guy who could be charge of the entire military right in for .

all those reasons. We don't know if pet x going to make IT through the senate confirmation process that lies before him. In the next couple of weeks, like mac gates, he could end up having to drop out because of the accusations of sexual misconduct.

But so far, senate republicans who have met with hegseth on capital hill seemed to be optimistic that he could make IT through and for the sake of argument, let's act as if the text does become secretary of defense. How transformational would that be for the U. S. Military to have someone who clearly sees himself as such a champion of the soldier and such a chAllenger to the military establishment? What do we think?

You know, I think IT really depends on fox. He is culture war bomb throwers who talks about getting rid of all women in combat positions, which, you know, there are thousands of people that might affect. So is unclear how things like that could actually happen without being completely disruptive.

You, on the other hand, when he was in uniform, everybody I talked to said he was just a hard working, non partisan common sense guy. So are you gonna get a mix of the partisan battle and the common sense officer, are you going to get one or the other? I think that's up in the year. What's clear that in the ranking file, there is some recognition that for the past twenty five years, the status quote hasn't really been working and they're hungry for change.

right? And that would seem to be what Donald trumpet is banking on here that for too long, even in his own first administration, his recipe of self disruption stopped at the military. He never thought to put someone like this in that role. In this time, he's rolling the dice that not only IT will work, but that he has to work. This is a place that does not need that .

kind of disruption. No more generals, no more admins. He's putting in someone who's top line on their resume for the job is that I don't trust the people that have been running this. And so he's all the promising disruption.

Would you thank you very much? Preciate up.

Thank you.

Or do I back?

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it's john chase from wire cutters, the product recommendation .

service from the new york times. Marrying IT is gift giving time. What's an easy gift for someone like under fifty box? So in our gift and fifty guide we have this super cute .

palm size blue tube speaker comes in a ray of cool colors. Its waterproof. You can bring IT anywhere. I want one for my garden.

I love IT. Check out all of wirecutters. Get recommendations for yourself and everyone else at online times. Dot com slash holiday guide here's what else you need to enter day on monday. As expected, special counsel jack Smith dropped his indictment ments charging gang trump with plotting to overturn the twenty twenty election and illegally retaining classified documents.

Smith, in court filings, explained that longstanding justice department policy makes IT impossible to pursue prosecutions against a sitting president, but Smith road, the decision to drop the cases quote, does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged, the strength of the government's proof, or the merits of the prosecution, which the government herode stands fully behind in a post on social media reacting to the news, trump called both in data called empty and love us. Today's episode was produced by Diana ware, carless creative, mary Wilson and Oscar ov IT was edited by lisa chao and Michael benji. Fact cc by Susani contains original music by dan power and marizano, and was engineered by oya moxley. Our theme music is my gym running and vellers fork of wonder.

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