Talking Dateline: Down the Rabbit Hole
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Everybody is judge make what's and we're talking date line today with Keith Morrison suber look can keef Morrison.

So i'm not sober. I'm perfectly happy to tend to be here. I could be one hundred other places and here I am.

But you prot, you could supply us with a list of those places later. So this episode is called down the rapid hole. And IT is the story of the two thousand and twelve murder of marian Murphy in our home in humble, texas.

And the twists and turns, and from what I can discern, roughly one gillion lies that LED detectives to our killers. Now, if you have not listened to the broadcast yet, IT is the episode de, right below this one on the list of pod guests that you just choose from. So go there and listen to do IT.

Or if you wanted, watch IT on TV. You can stream IT on p cock and then come back here. Now today, key says an extra clip that he's going to play for us from the jail house phone calls.

Part of this a way that's a good part.

And also like many other things in the story, very hard to believe. And then kids and I are also going to answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media. Just stick around for that.

So let's talk take line. Okay, so so let let's start the top from the beginning watching this. I was a man I hope like this feels so obviously like it's gona turn out, Carry, killed her mom and lied about everything else. And I think you like how you can do that for two hours because like I already suspect or and like the first ten.

nine, just specious guy.

I am a .

spicious guy. Another guy confessed IT.

So why? Well, before that I was, I like, it's so obviously hurt, right? But then it's one twist after another and one crazy lie after another. I lost track.

I didn't even try to count all because there were was one after another after another.

And I mean, maybe because we've been doing this for such a long time, but I mean, when I see things like the note left in the house and I ran outside because my mom is you being killed and I slip on a piece of paper on the lawn and I picked IT up right when the minute I heard that, i'm like, okay, well, she's everything in because that is too much storytelling, which is a trap a lot of people end up falling into. You're talking too much.

What does seem to be to be was a evidence that more than one person was doing this planning. They came up with ideas. And okay, if that idea doesn't worked than do this.

you know, if jane was not part of this and he wasn't right, the kerry had no way of knowing that he was gonna cop to this. He was a lot. Wow, this is my lucky day.

I believe. SHE, I didn't think that.

Yes, this guy I lied about is actually .

going along with a lie.

I go figure, right? I think I can talk himself into .

the jail house. Mean, he he, but his family knew that very day that he couldn't possibly. I've done IT and told the police so, and provided proof that he was actually at home playing a video again.

He tried to sort of explain that to the audience, but I still don't get IT like, why did he lie? Why did sam confess to this? Actually, he didn't do IT.

He knew he didn't do IT. What was his relationship with Carry? And me, was he trying to take the he offer? What was going on?

Strange, just aren't. Think again, this is boilers onite. But kerry was claiming the jane was stocking her. The jane was a successes with her. They had no idea what he was talking about.

He felt from the beginning, like the stocking story, was something that .

SHE set up so but they put him in front of questioner and he denied, denied, denied, deny he do with this and then they took him into the polygraph machine and all that is recorded as that he failed the test, failed miserably um but also interestingly enough, the person who actually committed the crime passed the test. So that might tell you something about poole. Phy, well, IT does. We don't know how heart he was pushed. We do know, however, that when he was picked up and brought in for questioning in the IT was the task force that picked him up and he was terrified when he was pulled out of the house and taking down .

to the station but presumably one of the questions that he that he was asked was, you know where you there when marian was killed? You have anything to do the plan? You you know, I mean, and we've talked about this before, frequently, polygraphs are at their most useful when people refuse to take them because that generally is taken by long force, can be taken as a sort of sign that they they're hiding something.

And people some of these people, wilderness to take polygraphs exactly the same thing. Like, that's a good sign. What he was up to, I literally do not understand. I mean, was this the case of police pressing to art? Because sometimes, particularly with kids, are people who are not veterans of the criminal justice system false confessions are easier to get .

saying is actually a perfect example of the of the kind of person who tends to confess falsely he was vulnerable without a doubt um but the all indications were that the initial interrogation was not the sort of harsh thing that would lead somebody, even a vulnerable person to falsely confess um and because you know they had to wait to be sure that they could undo that confession and and this brings up another subject that you once a person, once that usually a Young person has confessed to a crime even if the police are aware that that confession is false within hours of IT.

It's it's like a balder coming down here.

Oh, absolutely. And IT takes a long, long time and a lot of legal bounce around before finally they can get the confession.

wait. So many people need to hear when they are facing interrogation by police is one retain legal council, and to try not to tell multiple and conflicting stories.

well, that those are two very good piece device. I will never understand why people feel the need just because they're put in the room surrounded by a couple of detectives to to answer every question you say, wow, i'm i'm pretty scared. I want my lawyer here to help me in.

right? So, uh um why? Who are you talking to? Who you blooming your kiss to?

That was my delightful and charming wife who just brought me a beautiful big cup of tea.

She's the best.

Tell her home is yeah, do yeah.

Why SHE puts up with you. We literally don't. They're rend enough talking data ds to explain.

No, probably not. No, i've never understood why and I stopped asking because you, if not, she's there thing hard.

understand and are right back to back to the story. One of the things I thought really worked in this was showing the detective going back to the house at night, looking around. And obviously that was not done at the time of murder. How do we make that work?

Well, that the new family living in the house was happy to help, which is not something you always run into for sure.

Frequently, of .

course. And who can blame them, right? They don't want the news spreading around even more than ready. A B and there is location fee involved, of course but the question remains, why do some people feel comfortable living in a house where such a heinous crime has occurred and other people don't? Just an interesting middle ork about human asia.

I don't know what the answer is um when we come back, we have an extra clip from rebeca and Carries jail house phone.

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Some stories are like, you know, story quebec centuries. This one really was a version of a shake spirit play. This could be a shakesperean play because it's rome on Juliet with a different outcome.

But all the all the kind of the side characters and the and the little seven years you go down that are false trails, the rabbit holes are there, but in a way that they would be in a great experience play. It's a tragedy, clearly, but just fascinating to see what the details were. Human beings don't change all that much over the centuries. And some particular .

ways were you able to tell, like exactly when carrey's relationship with her mother went? Sort of not as bad, but hamas's bad. I mean, how long before marine was killed? I got the .

distinct depression that IT was when deputy hoper came over to arrest girlfriend rebeca. I take IT out town and and charger that at that point IT was going to be all out war and the the planning began um this is the most shocking part of at all that a daughter can actually get together with somebody else and plan to commit a crime of that sort. And then as he admitted at the the tail end of things, something rebeca currently didn't even know is that he was right there watching a whole thing go down.

Clearly, there was some agreement that i'll do the crime and you don't have to be there.

But then you do, then you do. And the other thing about IT was that after professing they are love to each other hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times on these phone calls from jail, that particularly Young woman Carry was quite naive about what law enforcement might in the end do and went on living her life. I mean, SHE just the the atrocity which would have been committed did not seem to matter all. Doctor.

I don't like, I know psychologist, and I don't like throw around words like sociopaths clearly understood that there was been right, wrong. But but what he was facing, SHE did not seem to understand, and I did not seem to bother her at all.

He had mother still felt could get out of their conversations, their jailhouse conversations, which were, I mean, phenomenal. I can only imagine being one of the police office listening to them, but they seem to know enough. They had to cover their tracks most of the time, and they only leak occasionally. But of course, the occasionally leak is all they need to find out. What they need to find out.

IT, was that recorded phone call, that sort of LED prosecutors to think to themselves, okay, this is that we can go ahead now. Yes.

they've been waiting for something just like that. They've been waiting for that moment when there would be a conscious knowledge of what they had done expressed over the telephone in such a way that they could play that in court. And the jury was a, oh yes, I can see what happened here and find them guilty. They didn't have to go that far in the end, but that's why they were waiting. They were waiting for that for a long time.

But this feels like a good place to listen to the extra sound that we have. This did not make the episode. This occurred when rebeca was locked up and Carrier was out on bond.

And there's a couple of pieces of sound here in the first Carrier dog you about how you protected Rebecca when one or mom when marian coth in the house. And in the second, they are discussing how prosecutors offer offer them a deal that they don't want to take. So let's listen to those like what .

my mom try to hurt you when we were in the bathroom and you can't like I told you the back up in the corner. Like I moved you behind me and you like you can try to push yourself in front of me and I told my mom that you 我想 跟 他 交情 number。 I. Can you look great?

Was so Young that china offers so much time to try and make a concession, actually saying, okay, what is the china play is but it's not working a lot.

Yeah, lots smart, please. Yeah yeah. Rely on that. No others thinking that they are smarter than the cops. You've seen IT at other times.

I've seen at a time of times where where a good detective will allow him or herself to be seen as kind of a dupe. It's the columbo approach, I guess. And IT puts people at the eason. Then they get the impression that they are the smart one in the room.

I got to say IT is hearing a defendant say, yeah, we're a lot smarter than the gov. On on a phone call that the caps are listening to and recording yeah I think the yes right I think think we know the answer to that. You know, one of the things is kind of a larger thing that came out of this area was the sort of the way that lying is perceived.

Now, you know, lying used to be something that was inherently shameful. You know, like George washington could not tell a lie right today. People can't tell the difference and IT doesn't matter. And the not .

matter in is disturbing yeah .

the people involved in this particularly Carrying rebeca, seem to like Carrying particularly you done matter like i'll say whatever I want to say if it'll get me out .

of yeah that's right. And and her brother, by the way, was very slow to accept that. And IT breaks his heart even to talk about IT. Now.

I thought he was a great character, and I thought you would be a great job with him. And I loved how you could sort of see him evolve along with her stories evolving through the entire episode, because he starts out like, I know her. This could never have happened.

And at the end he was like, I barely have any contact, whether because of what you did. And we've covered plenty of family members who will not accept what was proven in court and admitted on wiretaps and testified to. But he's not one of them. He knows what's out there.

It's like a bomb one off in that family and and it's often the case when a murder occurs, it's just the whole thing comes apart. His father is in an institution. His sister is in prison for a very long time.

His mother is dead. He's trying to build a life, but he is the only one left, and he has all that emotional baggage to Carry around. So I felt for that guy a lot.

I love the way that you guys ended the episode which was talking about her. Like let's be clear on a couple of things like those last few minutes of her life that was not her life, and you know that he had this whole other life and he was wife and a mom and a daughter and her friend. And know, one of the things that gets lost sometimes in coverage of murder is who the victim was on on all the days that the crime wasn't committed. And I think that's important because think that's a bigger part of their life and just the way they died.

absolutely.

That's quite right after the break when we're going to go back and answers some of your questions through social media.

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Okay, onto social media. Very interesting that the the first question on social media is from our friend and anxiety fries cam who we love and it's about you have your big boy pants on SHE says I can't think of a worst way to tell your son, his mother's said, and I ve got to tell I can't either. That is not in any parenting notebook or a handbook that i'm aware of.

IT did not surprise the sun though, because he did didn't surprise Scott at all that kind of the way his dad would communicate. He was an interesting dude, a loving man who had trouble expressing IT, a person who was happy to be married to marian, but had a drinking problem that had some issues in their marriage. But really, deep down, he was happy to be where he was. And as IT turned out, not being able to be where he was not having his wife anymore was too much for. And I couldn't take IT.

I thought when he said, when sort quoted him as saying, I can fix a lot of things, but I can fix this. That was just hard to breaking .

and yeah and on .

the other side of depLoring his comment about the every big boy pants on his Bobby g sixty two, this sounds like dad, i'd good advice that night, which is true in that sense, which was A A torrent of bad news was coming so I I think if the audience sense of mixed motions on that favorite anti jane tells us, he says, I heard one line from the daughter and I started putting my money on hers as the killer. No affect emotion, no tears and interview right after your mother's is burtt murdered, SHE seemed unaware that investigators, you're going to be looking not just at her words, but everything else about her.

SHE tells him. So he and deputy hoper would be on the same page there.

Here's here's an interesting question that came in from instagram. It's from my mali oba mi O P L E, but he said， I need to know if Jason Keith don't get along on the podcast. IT sounds like playful animals with an underneath layer of disdain. I would object that verse, I would object that very strongly, is not an underlying layer .

of secret.

which is, boy ah you're going to hate this everybody on date line, everybody camera cruise producers as everybody everybody loves cheese and I know different. I do too. Yeah, that's about the nice .

thing anybody he's ever said to me.

And that is talking date line for this week.

key.

Thank you.

Thanks to everybody for listening. Remember, if you have any questions for us about anything on the broadcast, any of our stories or any cases that you think we should cover, you can reach out to was on social at at date line, N. B, C. So you friday on date line on nbc, and remember to listen to kids all new bod gift, which is called the man in the black mask.

or just said correctly, the man in the black man.

okay, I don't have your voice, okay, but let me do my best. Try to listen the key's new podcast, the main in the black mask.

Yes.

yeah, the first two episodes .

are available and going .

to go back to that first two episodes available to listen to for free wherever you get your broadcasts.

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