03: Heaven's Gate | Red Thread
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Would you like me guys to start with the story? Oh, please. Yeah. As is tradition now.

That was a really interesting way of asking that question. Would you like me guys to start with a story? It's like a pirate. Would you mateys like a tail? How about a shanty? Already fucked it up. Brilliant.

No, I would love a story. I'd love a story. Yeah. Alright. Dawn breaks on the morning of March 26, 1997. A mansion stands in eerie silence as a pair of San Diego County Sheriff's deputies step from their vehicle. An early chill rolls through the hills as they stand by their vehicle getting ready to execute a routine checkup after having received an anonymous tip.

Nothing seemed out of place, nothing out of the ordinary anyway. Just a prank call probably, the deputies thought. Kids love to send them out knocking on doors first thing in the morning. One deputy takes a sip from his coffee while his partner eyes the mansion. It's a grand, Spanish-style villa, not exactly uncommon around these parts. They walk up the orange steps to the front door, taking note of the silence as they do so. It's an eerie silence, the kind that reverberates through your very soul.

Something just didn't feel right. There's no other way to say it. One deputy knocks on the door while the other peers through a window to the side. No answer. The deputy moves to another window. He calls out to his partner that he thinks he can see a figure laying down on the floor, but they aren't moving. The other deputy pulls at the handle to find it curiously unlocked and after a slight push he finds himself in the entryway. The other deputy enters from behind as well. They

They step, timidly, into the first room together, to find themselves completely startled beyond belief. Multiple bodies arranged with deliberate care lay in repose, dressed identically in black shirts and sweatpants, each wearing a pair of new black and white Nike Decades. Purple shrouds cover their faces ritualistically. One deputy steps outside to call for backup and medical aid, while the other walks from room to room counting the deceased.

39 bodies in total, of various ages and differing sexes. On their sleeves, patches read "Heaven's Gate Away Team". The deputies leave with a set of deceptively obtuse questions that now plague their minds. What drove 39 people to commit mass suicide, and what on earth was Heaven's Gate?

Welcome to The Red Thread, the podcast series where we explore and investigate the weird world of cults, conspiracies, cryptids, as well as cold cases. I'm one of your hosts, Jackson, and I'm joined by my good friends and fellow co-hosts, Isaiah and Charlie. We're here to hopefully answer those questions for those deputies out there who might still be wondering and discuss the formation of one of the most prolific cults of all time, one of the most well-known in that of Heaven's Gate.

Before we begin though, this episode is brought to you by our friends over at Rocket Money and HelloFresh. More on them later in the show. So boys, how are we doing today? Doing great, Jackson. Thanks so much for asking. It's so hot when you do that. Did you enjoy story time? That whole intro is so hot. You do such a good job at that. Every time I'm like, ooh, will we find out? I want to know what's going to happen. Yeah.

Yeah, I really take you back there. It's like you were one of the detectives. I struggled with this one. I'm going to be honest because I wanted to put people in the shoes of the event, but then I realized that would be in the form of potentially a cult member that has, you know, taken their own lives. Did you make that pun on purpose in the shoes of the in the shoes?

I did not. I make so many puns that I don't realize that I'm making them. Nearly 99% of my puns are not intentional, I promise you. I just fall into them. I want the audience to know, like, if they thought, like, the last couple episodes were intense with research, I want you to know that Jackson put together a 24-page docket about Heaven's Gate. Yeah.

This one's very thorough. Yeah. There is so much here, boys. There is literally so much history in Heaven's Gate. 22 years of events and manipulations and cult teachings and stuff like that that I felt were too important to leave out. It's just, I mean, when you think about it, 22 years summed up in 24 pages, that's not bad. That's pretty decent. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah. I'm certainly proud of you. So...

Thank you. I appreciate that. I wanted to take this before we actually get into, you know, Heaven's Gate and all the events that surround it. I wanted to thank the audience, really, because these last few weeks of Red Thread have been absolutely beyond belief. We charted on the Spotify charts at number two, I believe is the highest we got, which is

It's just incredible. So thank you all very much for that. I'm sure the boys echo my sentiments. Yeah, I'm still in disbelief by it. It's overall like of all genres number two in the United States. The only person ahead of us was Joe Rogan. That's insane. I mean, yeah, like just the hair too. We were we were biting at his heels.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like there's something... There might be a conspiracy of Spotify's own making there. I believe that they've just planted him at the top because they paid him $200 million of exclusivity and they wanted to make it look good. Maybe that's a topic for a future episode. Well, if they give us $201 million of exclusivity, we'll be their number two plant. Yeah, we can take it. I'll take it. I'll let that happen for $200 million. Absolutely.

It's such an obscene amount of money. There's no way that they made their money back on the Joe Rogan thing. Oh, they will though. It's coming. Well, no, they won't make it back because we're not if we have anything to say about it. Yeah, we'll take Joe Rogan's audience. And we're doing it for free. We're gunning for that bald guy. We'll get him one day. Yeah, it's going to be fucking awesome.

But for real, thank you. Thank you, everyone. It means the world. You guys are fantastic. Yeah, it really does. Thank you. It really does. The support was incredible. So, Heaven's Gate, how much do you guys know? I asked this at the start of every episode just to kind of get discussions going. How much do you guys know about Heaven's Gate? I know pretty much everything about it, but not anything leading up to it. Oh, sorry, I can't use that word on YouTube. I know everything about the shedding of the mortal coil moments, but nothing leading up to it.

The unaliving. I think unaliving is fine. I think that's what I'm going to refer to it as. Yeah, so that's obviously the most like... Oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, go on. No, no, no. Jackson, you take the lead. I was stuck in a loop. I was stuck in a loop. Yeah, so that's obviously like the most famous part of it because it's not every day that a cult does end in a 39-person mass...

Stop. You just used the word again. Voldemort's name. 39 person mass unaliving that made the news. That's a close one. Yeah, that doesn't happen all the time. I'm just going to bleep it. People will understand the context. So yeah, obviously that's what drove Heaven's Gate into the cultural zeitgeist. It was basically what made them famous. Because obviously something that sensational is going to cause it to be famous.

you know, sensational. So, but there was a lot of history before this was the unaliving as well, that led to a lot of different media picking up on them. So they were, they were to some degree well known before, before the mass unaliving as well. How about you, Isaiah? What do you, what do you know? I'm a, like Charlie, I'm familiar with this, uh, with the, um, self lifting to a higher plane as they would probably call it. Um, yeah.

I'm familiar with that and like the weird things they did around it, like the clothing, the apple seeds, stuff like that. I'm also vaguely familiar with their doctrine. Like I know they were a doomsday cult. I know they took a lot of inspiration from revelations. I know that they thought there was like a sort of last chance for followers to get to heaven, so to speak. That's why they go by heaven's gate. Yeah.

So I understand how their doctrine led up to that, but I'm not familiar with the actual foundation of the cult itself. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So the foundation is quite interesting because there's a lot of

A lot of different events leading up to the foundation itself, the formation itself. It basically takes a pair of very, let's say, eccentric and potentially extremely mentally unwell individuals. And it's essentially a perfect storm of delusion where they feed into one another that creates what would then become Heaven's Gate. So I think at the center of this story, it's a tale of two...

Very interesting, let's say, individuals and how they kind of interacted and shared ideas that would then become a doctrine of a cult that would then, obviously, 20 years down the line lead to the mass unaliving of 39 individuals. And so it's a very interesting story, actually. And it all starts with the founders, like I just said. So I wanted to maybe...

start the episode by kind of digging into them individually before the cult so that we have an idea of who was running the show. Yeah, do it. You got my permission. You have my blessing. Continue. Alright, so...

So let's start with Marshall, right? Marshall Herff Applewhite. He was one of the main... He was the main instigator of the cult. Which, for one, from the jump, that is an incredible cult leader name. He was kind of predestined for it. Marshall Applegate? Or Applewhite? That's insane. It's a very noble sounding name. A gentleman or a scholar.

I would imagine him to be very well put together. It sounds like the name of royalty. Anyway, Marshall was born on May 17th, 1931 in a place called Spur in Texas. He grew up in a religious family, the son of a Presbyterian minister, and he showed an early interest in music and theology. Of course, theology makes sense given that he was the son of a Presbyterian minister. Mm-hmm.

He studied at a seminary, so he was going through a kind of theological education, but then he kind of pivoted to doing more music-based stuff because that was his passion, I suppose.

He also briefly pursued a career as a professional singer, but did not make it to the big lead, sadly. So that's unfortunate for him. Imagine the world that we would be living in if instead he was a world-renowned singer instead of a cult leader. Well, I don't think he would have changed the world. He wasn't going to be the front man of the Beatles or anything. It's just, we would have 39 more people alive. Well,

Well, no, they probably would have had a different cult, to be honest. We're five minutes into the episode and Charlie's like, what in a man a damn thing? Don't need them people. He's been holding it back, talking about how much he hates this cult up until just then.

It sounds like he has a boat to pick with Apple. He doesn't believe in his singing skills. Hey, call me crazy. I think he's a bad guy. I don't know. I don't like him. His quote just then was, all that would have happened is 39 more people would be alive. Okay, which would be great, but Jackson's phrasing it like the whole world would have changed if he was just a singer. Well, no, but if he was like a popular singer.

I guess. Okay, imagine this. If he was a popular singer, maybe the number would have been more than 39 because he would have had more of a spread. Did you ever consider that? Wait, you're right. Yeah, you're right. Look, all I'm saying is if right now Taylor Swift did that, it would be a lot more than 39, right?

Yeah, exactly. That'd be huge. Yeah. So in some ways, we're lucky that he didn't break it big as an actual singer. Yeah, like Charlie thinks. I'm co-opting Charlie's statement. It's good that this happened to 39 people. I'm glad that it happened to you. Okay.

That's definitely not what I'm saying. No, I'm pretty sure that's what I heard. You formed your own thought off that now. Look, on the record, you can quote him. Charlie said, I'm glad 39 people died. And I agree with him. I'm with my friend on this one. That is not a red thread opinion. Charlie's acting entirely on his own prerogative there. That is all him. Two out of three podcast hosts agree. 39, cool number.

I like how, okay, so this is becoming a trend in the red thread now, constantly victimizing Charles and putting words in his mouth. It's fine, someone's gotta do it. Look, they didn't kill him last time, so we're trying to see what can stick, right? Like, he made it from the last show. I don't think Applewhite poses much of a threat anymore. His ghost might still be lingering. That comet's coming back around any day now.

So in Corpus Christi, he moved to Corpus Christi and he started becoming a college music professor because, you know, when you can't do, you teach. So while he was there working as a college music professor, he sadly, sadly is not the right answer. His marriage of 16 years was dissolved and he lost his job when he had a homosexual relationship with a student. So that kind of sent him into a downward spiral, essentially.

He lost his career, he lost his marriage, and obviously there's conversations to be had about the wrestling inside him of his sexuality with his theological or religious beliefs. So there was probably some conversation to be had there about what this meant for the future. And he likely had a lot of inner turmoil and difficulty coming to terms with his sexual desire, which led to a lot of severe frustration. Yeah.

He would then move in 1965 to Houston where he would serve as chair of the music department at another university and he started another relationship with a young woman. At this time I believe he was living his life as an openly bisexual man so he was pursuing a romantic relationship with a young woman but history repeated itself again.

And he lost his job at the University of St. Thomas in 1970, citing depression and other emotional problems. But experts believe and speculate that the departure was actually motivated by a second affair between Applewhite and another student, another male student. So this seems to be obviously a recurring theme. He's definitely struggling with his sexuality and he's kind of...

I don't know, proclivity for sex? He was at least a college professor, right? He wasn't like a high school professor or anything. So at least... No, no, no, this was college. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least the people that he was hooking up with weren't like minors or anything like that. But probably also, you know, a bad thing to cheat on your spouse, too. Well, cheat on your spouse, it's bad professionally, obviously. It's bad professionally, yeah. The relationship's inappropriate, for sure. And I think we also have to frame this in...

1960 at a place called the University of St. Thomas having a let's say a gay relationship with a student there was a lot more extreme consequences than at that location than there would be now on top of that yeah of course

Yeah, so obviously this is all to paint kind of a whirlwind of just bad things happening to this man that would lead to emotion. He was having a hard go of it. He was wrestling with his inner demons, obviously not winning those battles. He was fighting depression and stuff like that, probably definitely exacerbated by the events that happened. And on top of that, he had a strained relationship with his family and his father, especially because he was a Presbyterian minister. So...

Obviously, there would be a bit of an odd dynamic there. He was basically estranged at this point from his family due to the events that took place. So, all of this led to a moment in 1972 where he states, or he writes in his writings, that he met a woman, Bonnie Lou Nettles, at a mental institution in

Basically, he was there for treatment for his depression and stuff like that. I'm not sure why Bonnie Nettles was there. She worked as a nurse, so that could potentially be it, but I didn't find any kind of concrete evidence. Wait, she was a nurse and he was a patient there? So he was a patient there, definitely. I couldn't find out information if Bonnie Lou Nettles was a nurse at the mental institution or if she was there as well. She did...

She did work as a nurse, but I'm not sure if she was a nurse at that institution. Man, if she was, then that's a real Joker Harley Quinn moment right there. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was thinking as well. Like, it seems like, it seems like a really... Not to equate 39 people's death to a DC comic, but it is a Harley Quinn, a certified why so serious moment for sure. Yeah.

How about we leave the pop culture references to Charlie, right? He's the expert at those. He can pull them out. No, anyone's welcome to reference pop culture. It doesn't have to just be me. This is just like Batman. We're switching it up this time. We're switching it up this time. I think the pop culture references, he's saying he's glad all these people died. So that's what's happening. Yeah, we're taking different sides. Just trying to play in the field a bit.

Probably the perfect middleman that disagrees with both of those statements and comes out completely clean. So just to go back though, Marshall, obviously depressed, wrestling with these sexual insecurities and stuff like that. A few experts that I read, especially in a book that I was perusing, it was a scientific journal by an author named Susan Rayen.

called Reconceptualizing the Human Body, Heaven's Gate, and the Quest for Divine Transformation, she poses that he was hospitalized for what was a full-blown schizophrenic episode, not just depression. So he was likely already suffering from some form of delusions at that point, is what she thinks. And I think that's likely given the history that this man would go on to kind of do. Yeah.

So that's basically the history of Marshall before the formation of what would become the cult, the Heaven's Gate cult. So let's shift gears and head on over to the other side of the aisle, the second founder, who was Bonnie Lou Nettles. And she was born on August 29th, 1927 in Houston, Texas.

So there's not much known about her at all. I could not find anything about her early life, but I know she worked as a nurse and she had a marriage as well to a man, a very successful businessman at the time that came to its end because she became addicted basically to mysticism and the occult, things like talking to the dead and stuff like that. So it must have been pretty, pretty, a pretty severe addiction, probably also, you

You know, delusional as well, same as Marshall, if it were to lead to a, you know, a dissolvement of their marriage. Yeah, that tracks. Based on where this is going. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So, you can kind of see already, just based on the individuals here, like...

The path that these two are going to walk down. They're both delusional, but they both have these kind of eccentric spiritual beliefs. Visions of grandeur. Visions of grandeur, stuff like that. Just a whole bunch of stuff wrapped up in this nice little package.

So she was married. They split up. Bonnie's daughter, Terry Nettles, recounted for interviews moments during their childhood when she and her mother would stand in their backyard searching for UFOs at night. She said that they both felt like they weren't a part of this world and it would be neat if the UFOs would transport them back to where they belonged. So already, again, like Heaven's Gate... The Heaven's Gate cult... That's so sad. Yeah, I know. I know, it is sad. Heaven's Gate cult itself is a kind of...

mixing of Christian ideology with science fiction. I guess that's basically the most simple way you could put it. And so I think right here, those beginning threads of the kind of UFO elements were starting to take root in Bonnie. I have the quote here.

From Terry Nettles, it says,

So I think that paints a lot of Bonnie's kind of mentality. I don't think she was happy in life. I think she wanted more. I think that was probably the same for Marshall. I think they both wanted something more out of life. They had a general sense of purposelessness that I think this cult was their solution to or their theology or belief that they created themselves was a band-aid to fix that.

Do you guys agree so far? Yeah. It's also just coming from a place of actual mental illness. So it's just getting these ideas in your head about like, I don't belong, but now here's a potential way that I could through UFOs taking us elsewhere kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of...

of cults that you look at the leader and you can clearly be like oh well that guy was evil right like he was manipulating people like Jonestown right like clearly that was someone who was manipulating less educated people to get what they want but with Heaven's Gate it's always felt to me like they weren't in on the joke to a degree more than anyone else was like they truly believed the delusions they were saying in a way they were kind of victims of it as well

Yeah, I agree. I think they were definitely victims of the time they lived in. They didn't have access to proper mental health care. They probably didn't know what they were wrestling with. People weren't taking them seriously because I think the most dangerous thing for a mentally ill person like this is another mentally ill person like them where they can kind of co-feed and kind of, what was the word, kind of like feed into each other's delusions. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it becomes kind of a self-affirming thing

Well, not prophecy, but self-affirming action at that point where you're surrounding yourself with people that agree with you. So it reinforces the idea. So I definitely think that they are victims of each other as well as their just kind of predicament in life. The cards they were dealt were not good. Obviously, that doesn't excuse what happened, like where this went.

But I think it's important to contextualize it and frame it in that kind of understanding that maybe these guys weren't maliciously evil. Maybe they were just severely mentally ill. Not to go backwards, but reading through some of your notes here, you mentioned that you didn't know if Bonnie was a nurse or a patient there. Yet a lot of the information moving forward is working under the assumption that she was also a patient at the mental hospital where they met. Is there just like a discrepancy in like what's true?

So, yeah, there's a discrepancy in how Marshall relays the first meetings. So some of that information may be from Marshall. Whereas Bonnie's family, especially her daughter, paints a different picture of how they meet. So there is a lot of just kind of... I don't have a concrete answer there. I think the most likely thing is that...

due to her, due to how she acts and stuff, I think it's likely that she was a patient there at some point and that's how they met and they kind of bonded over their own shared experiences or their shared feelings and ideas. Um, but I don't have a concrete answer for you, I'm afraid. Okay. Yeah, because I was just reading a bit forward here about their, uh,

Not to get too far ahead of the conversation in the class, but reading about how they believed they were the two in the biblical prophecy, which sounds like something out of Star Wars with like the Jedi stuff. He to bring balance. Yeah. They can only be two. There's always two.

Yeah, no, I don't have a copy of it. Hey, Charlie brought it back to pop culture references. I'm so proud. Yeah, we're back, baby. We're so back.

It's magical. Do you even realize you're doing it most of the time, or is it just kind of a nervous tick? I don't know. I just... I see things like the two, and my mind immediately goes to, damn, that's just like Darth Bane. This is so pathetic. It's so weird. It's his brain on default mode. Oh, Star Wars. Yes, I'm familiar. I know exactly what happened here. I...

I do get the need to like, I do get the needle drive to like relate things to things that are more easily digestible though. I think it does make it, well, it definitely makes the episodes funnier. I can't, I can't blame Charlie for anything. When you were talking about the two of them standing outside, looking at UFOs, wishing they could go away. That song airplanes was in my head, you know,

Oh, what a banger though. Can we pretend that air plenty's like, looking up the open UFO's takeaway that went through my head, but I ate it. I was like, don't say that on the podcast. That's going to sound so stupid. So I'm glad you did. No, bully me for it. Yeah, I'm glad you did.

No, it's alright. You can say whatever you want here. I know I can because you get a laugh at the comments and that's engagements. That's why you're saying that. The more laughs we can cram in here, the better in my opinion. So it's not just me reading show notes that I scribbled at 3am. Yeah, it's show notes at 3am, 24 pages.

So, yeah, that's basically what I would consider the foundation of these two characters. I'm putting it the wrong way. Two individuals. So that's where I wanted to kind of shift into the cult history itself. Because at this point, they kind of made their meeting, whether that be through a mental institution, which is one possibility, or through how Bonnie's daughter puts it, that...

They met at, so this is a quote from Terry Nettles, the daughter of Bonnie Nettles. They met in 72 at the theater I used to work at. He was teaching music and drama. Started out with my mom doing astrology charts for the mothers. And I remember her telling me we were in the living room that there's something about his chart, something there that was a lot different than everybody else's.

So that's her recounting of how they met in a theater that she used to work at. And he took an astrology chart lesson from her mother. But again, Marshall paints a different story. It's possible. Okay. So here's my theory. All right. It's possible that there's inklings of truth from both stories, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's possible that they met initially at the mental institution. They were both there probably because I believe this was after Terry, not Terry, Bonnie had separated from her husband. So she was going through a rough patch as well. So I believe that they met at the mental institution and then they became friends. And then he likely took the astrology course.

whatever you call this astrology lesson from, from Bonnie at the theater. And that's when Bonnie, when their friendship got a bit closer and stuff like that. And then Terry found out about it through her mother. Yeah. So that's why there's kind of that discrepancy. I think that tracks. Yeah. I think that's the most likely situation. All right. Let's let's take a break right now to hear from this episode's sponsors who we appreciate very much.

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Back into it, let's talk about the cult actually forming now. So we've got an idea of who they are as people. Let's talk about how they kind of interacted in those seminal moments. So they both first met in 1972, as we previously discussed, and they began sharing, discussing and sharing interests in spirituality, metaphysics, and the belief that they were destined for something greater than the ordinary human experience. So this is where I was saying before, like, they kind of fed into one another. They both...

portrayed one another as having greater importance than what they actually had. They fed into those delusions. Their conversations evolved into a deep and bizarre bond very quickly as they became convinced that they were the two. That's in quotation marks. They called themselves the two that were foretold in biblical prophecy chosen by extraterrestrial beings or higher powers. So it immediately goes from zero to 100. Basically, there's no gradual build up here. They,

Because they feed into each other with their delusions, they immediately go to, we are biblical figures, prophesized by the Bible, basically friends with Jesus Christ, and we will save humanity. Me and the boys hyping each other up. We're those guys. We're the guys. We're them. We're so them.

There was no gradual build-up from what I could see. They just met and immediately went into that kind of biblical prophesization that they were special. Which is... I mean, there's no greater evidence, really, to paint their mental instability than that, I think. If it was something that they kind of groomed each other into over years, I guess... I don't know. It wouldn't make sense, but it would be less evidence as to their just...

the mental instability at this time because they just dove right into it they were desperate for a life of importance and value and and something different than what they had already experienced they were that desperate that they just clung to this belief immediately as soon as someone that they found that was like-minded told them that that was how it is so i think that paints a pretty pretty uh direct picture and not only that it got it goes pretty insane immediately they they

Began to co-live, cohabit with each other pretty much immediately as well. And I also have to note here that it's important to specify that their relationship was not a sexual one. There is evidence that it was entirely platonic, deeply loving, but not sexual. So it was kind of like an asexual partnership in that they were like life partners, but without the sexual element. They'd have long romantic evenings and then climb into bed and stare at each other.

I don't know if it was an attempt to shed the sexual elements of life because especially in Applewhite's case, nothing good had come from that in the past. Or if they just didn't have the attraction to one another or what, or if they just found each other spiritually rewarding on a different level. I'm not sure. When you're the guy, when you're that guy, you don't need it anymore. Yeah.

Yeah, at that point they just look at each other and they can just feel it in their brains. It's like some kind of interdimensional sexual experience through the cosmos. Do you think it was actually that? Like it was just sex had no need because they were mentally orgasming? Yeah, 100%. That's not even exclusive to just them. There's people that actually believe imagination is more...

erotic and fulfilling than physical so I definitely think so hmm interesting I just assume that they just stripped sexuality from it entirely just because they didn't find it attractive it's definitely possible

I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, so they began to live together and they were basically just reinforcing their emerging delusional beliefs just constantly. There is an interesting note here from psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton, who speculates that Nettles, Bonnie Nettles' influence, kept Marshall's delusions in check.

He thinks that Marshall's delusions could have got much worse, much quicker if it weren't for Nettles' influence, Bonnie Nettles' influence. I tend to disagree. I think that because they were kind of- Yeah, you as the expert psychiatrist disputing the other psychiatrist. Well, no, there is a-

There is another like expert that disagrees as well. There's debate in the community. I'm just saying I tend to agree with the other perspective. I just like the idea that we're two episodes in. It's like, well, actually, I have more authority than the psychiatrist. We're right behind Joe Rogan, bro. Is that psychiatrist? That's what I thought. Come on. We can make up our own facts now. Yeah. That's what the top spot. That's what the top spot means. We choose what history is.

But what do you, do you disagree? What, what, what one do you think it is, Charlie? Do you think that the delusions fed off one another or do you think Bonnie kept him in check? I don't know enough about it yet, but I just usually leaned like if an expert psychiatrist is saying something, I put more stock in it than me just speculating as a dumb, smooth noodle brain guy.

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. But again, another expert is disagreeing as well. Yeah, if there's disagreements among the experts, then yeah, choosing the one. It can also be both. Like, you know, if they were both delusional, maybe one day her delusion wasn't as intense as his, so they like go with hers, you know what I mean? Yeah.

It could be something like that too. I agree. So after this point, after they were living together for a long time, they opened a bookstore called the Christian Art Center.

Which is interesting because while their belief or their religion did co-opt elements of Christianity, kind of in a heretical way, a blasphemous way. Yeah, kind of. You can probably weigh in on that eventually. There's a little bit of blasphemy going on, but it's okay. Yeah.

so like it's kind of weird that they called it a christian art center when a lot of the classes that would take place there were based around mysticism and their own beliefs and stuff like that uh they created a venture called the no place which is no as in like knowing like knowledge like k-n-o-w not like an not n-o um so this was like a kind of

classroom-based thing where they would teach things about theosophy and mysticism, like I said before.

However, these various ventures were later closed because they weren't making money. And they would then choose to set out on what they called a spiritual road trip that would eventually lead to the formation of the cult's entire foundation. So they basically wanted to travel with one another and teach others along the road about their beliefs. So they were taking the Christian Arts Center on the road, basically. It was a road trip. It's so funny to imagine like a Sunday school kid.

like going to like oh i'm gonna go to the christian arts center it's like fortune telling and seances yeah well but imagine that imagine that though if you were that like i don't know six year old kid going to the christian arts center to learn about god and faith and stuff like that and then you get to meet jesus himself he's right there true yeah marshall was there yeah

We are the two. Marshall Comsatis. That would have blown my mind. That would have been incredible. But also scary. So yeah, they went on this road trip.

It was described as a restless, intense, often confused, peripatetic spiritual journey by Robert J. Lifton, that expert from before, the psychiatrist. So it was definitely not organized and definitely based off their delusions, they would just go around just...

kind of unfocused in an unfocused way just talking to whoever they could trying to trying to convince them that their beliefs were correct you know i always wonder like i'll talk to people who are like oh i was traumatized as a child by christianity or like oh i hate christianity because blah blah blah and i'm like well most of the time i assume they're overreacting but there's some people out there who ran into these two who it's like yeah

I see where you're coming from. If this is your first interaction or your primary interaction with faith in general or Christianity or what they're portraying as Christianity, holy shit. That's not a good first impression. Let's put it that way. I don't know how many mentally ill individuals you guys have interacted with.

But it can get scary pretty quickly, especially if they're that visibly delusional about their beliefs. Like, it is pretty confronting and scary. So, if that's the case, then yeah, I mean, if you're talking to these... I have a vivid memory of when I was nine or ten years old. I was at a Bible conference.

And there was a guy there who like, uh, who, who did have like schizophrenia and, some other stuff, I believe. But in the middle of the conference, he just randomly started yelling and shouting and ripping his clothes off saying he was possessed and like that he felt demons in him or whatever. That was a wild, I remember that so vividly as a terrified experience, but yeah, like, so that was like one guy and immediately people ushered him out or like, are you okay? They called an ambulance and everything. Um,

But imagining that guy being the leader of the room. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Would there be a different kind of like dynamic there that people would be more, if he was a leader, if he was the, if he was, well, I'd like to, well, like the, the people who were there were like, you know, guys in business, you know, politicians like, you know, respected guys with like good heads on their shoulders. So I like to think that an individual like that, could it be leader there? But historically there have been times where delusional people, I mean, we're looking at one right now have become leaders of other groups. Um,

Just to confirm, you're talking about Applewhite and not Charlie, right? I don't know, man. When you have a leader like that, it's scary. It's scary what can happen. The end of the story is a good example of how scary it can be.

Yeah, 100%. I think it's important, again, because you had that experience in what I would assume is at most the late 90s, probably early 2000s. Bro, do you know how old you think I am? I don't know. I think you're my age, right? Like 20, 25? Okay, yeah, I'm 24. So it was when I was 10. Charlie! Charlie's so old. Did you just hurt your knees, Grandpa? Did you just

It's okay, Grandpa. I did a big pog face and my jaw hurts now. We make fun of him for the pop culture stuff, but it's really like your grandpa who's like, I remember that from the 40s. It really is that. That's good, Grandpa. Go back to bed now. I remember when they invented chocolate.

um but so this was like 2010 i guess is when that happened okay yeah so 13 years ago yeah okay so again let's contextualize this this the heaven's gate story it was the 70s so i like i don't know how common or how aware people were of things like schizophrenia i'm sure they were but it wasn't as like

you know, well documented as it probably is now. So your church or your congregation probably knew that man was mentally unstable. This was a guy who had had a couple episodes in the past and like his family was there. They took care of him. Like it wasn't an issue, but I just like, as a kid, I didn't know all that when it happened. And I didn't think he was, cause my, my parents were very smart. They taught me well. I never thought like, Oh, this guy's possessed. Cause he says he is. I was immediately like, this is a guy with like a mental problem.

And everyone else recognized that. Like I said, it was a bunch of people with good head on their shoulders. But it's scary when things like that are said in environments where people are willing to believe it. Because a lot of weird stuff can come from it. There's a bigger conversation around how mental illness was kind of excused or factored into a lot of early evangelical spiritual movements and wasn't categorized as such. That led to a lot of problems. But that's a...

whole other can of worms. But yeah, stuff like this wasn't super uncommon. It's the end point that it got to that is what makes it unique. Yeah, definitely. And again, that comes after decades of group manipulation, just isolationism, stuff that other cults do, but this cult really took to the next level. So they were kind of forced into environments where

the only belief that was allowed was that of these two delusional figures.

And I think the people surrounding them, those 39 and the tens of other cult members in Heaven's Gate were also individuals that were susceptible to that kind of manipulation because they may have also been delusional or mentally unwell to some degree as well. That's not to say it's not possible that healthy-minded people could also fall victim to these

individuals, but I think there needs to be some level of proclivity to it for them to really latch onto the ideas put forth by Applewhite and Nettles. So, I think at that point, so they're going on their spiritual journey at this point in 1973, Bonnie Nettles writes to Terry Nettles, her daughter, and I think this is an interesting quote because it kind of puts into perspective. Can I read it?

Just because you did so much, I can do something. I can read a portion. Okay, cool. So, Bonnie's daughter said,

Dearest Terry, we have finally come out- wait, this is the daughter writing, correct? Or is this the mother? No, it's the- it's the mother writing. I already goofed it up. It's fine. It's the mother- dang it! Stupid, stupid, no. This is the mother- I just started hitting my head on the keyboard. Did you leave? Idiot! This is the mother writing to the daughter. Okay.

Dearest Terry, we have finally come out of the wilderness to know what our mission is. It is definitely a big one. In fact, we have been sent to fill the scriptures the same as Jesus and others came to do. This has been revealed in John's revelations. I am not kidding, baby. This is for real. I knew it was something very important from the beginning. I mean, that definitely is concrete. Yeah, that's pretty conclusive. Yeah.

What I found interesting about this is Terry Nettles, so the daughter of Bonnie Nettles, the founder, would often write or she would often receive letters from her mother, which is kind of odd because Marshall Applewhite...

completely separated from his family and all vestiges of his past, probably out of shame and guilt and stuff like that. But also, it was kind of commanded onto the cultists themselves, the cult members, people that would follow them around and subscribe to their beliefs, that they weren't allowed to contact their families as well. It seems like Bonnie...

was one of the only ones that was still allowed to and still able to. And I guess that makes sense in the context that she was the leader, the one setting the rules as well. But it's interesting to me that she still...

She wasn't so invested into the cult where she would completely scrub her past or completely scrub her family or her children or her family. So there was still some level of love there, at least at this point. Yeah, it's a good point. Maybe she wasn't all in. Maybe she was still at a point. Like, sure, she's delusional, but maybe she's at a still point someone could have helped her. Yeah. Yeah. Potentially. Which lends credibility to the previous psychiatrist statement that Bonnie kept.

Marshalls. That's true. Yeah, that is a good point. Yeah.

So their travels were filled with many spiritual and scientific fiction research. So while they were out in the woods, they were just reading copious amounts of books, particularly from Helena Blavatsky, who was a theosophist, R.D. Lange, a psychiatrist who studied psychosis, which is interesting. They were reading about their own conditions. And Richard Buck, a philosopher, author, to name a few. And Marshall specifically, there's

There's writings about from Marshall that specifically refer to the life of Francis of Assisi. Do you know who he is, Wendigoon? He was a guy in the Catholic Church. He's a saint, right? He was a saint. I believe he was an Italian saint. Yeah. Okay. Let me. Oh, you've got written here. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So like leprosy in the Bible was like a really big thing.

unclean thing like if someone had leprosy they were to be sent out of the city they lived in their own tribes and were basically condemned to die amongst themselves he was one of the ones who tried to end the stigma around that so or what the big guy who ended the stigma around that I should say

Yeah. I believe he also had an, another task at the time, which was to, it was to rid, rid the world of, uh, well, rid the world of the stigma of like leprosy in medieval Europe. And also his other one was to convert all Muslims to his faith, which did not go over well from what I remember. Um, so those were his two main goals. He kind of, the leprosy thing was kind of worked out for him regardless. Uh,

Applewhite took a lot of inspiration from him. I'm assuming it was potentially because of he's kind of... Francis kind of sacrificed his own

his own wishes, his own wants in the pursuit of fulfilling this thing that he considered to be for the good of the world. So he gave up his own aspirations of becoming a knight to do this thing, to become a saint, basically. And so I think my interpretation, and we don't know for sure, but my interpretation is that Marshall kind of saw himself as a Francis of Assisi kind of

of character in that he gave up his aspirations of i guess becoming a you know a professional singer or whatever or you know college teacher or whatever he didn't really give it up he kept getting fired for not being good enough but yeah i guess in terms of his in terms of his delusions though yeah yeah

In terms of his delusions, though, he may have justified it as this. He was giving all that life up, all of the things that he wanted to spread this message, to do good in the world, what he considered to do good in the world, to save people. Which I think, I mean, obviously they're both individuals, kind of relate themselves to biblicality.

biblical figures that did a lot of good or like they prophesize themselves to be of more importance than what they actually are and I think this is just another example of that to continue they also read a lot of teachings about Christology so the study of Jesus asceticism a lifestyle defined by abstinence from sensual pleasures often for attuning to one's spiritual goals and eschatology is that how I pronounce that eschatology eschatology that's

That's it. Yeah. So I'm sure you know a lot about that one. Yeah. Eschatology, it's mostly like a study of revelations, also like the prophecies of Daniel and stuff. It's basically a studying of the rapture or the end times or the end of days, stuff like that. Yeah.

So the idea here is that they were learning about Christology to take elements of a savior figure, so like Jesus and stuff like that, which would become central to the idea of the cult in that they themselves were the saviors. They took elements of asceticism, so they wanted to purify their souls, they wanted to purify their members' souls through abstaining from all worldly pleasures and basically putting everyone in a state of

so that they could then ascend to a realm above their existence, which is what they would call the next level. And then also they tied in elements, particularly towards the end of that eschatology or the last times, the last things, the end of the world, basically. Doomsday, it was a doomsday cult, basically, where the world was going to be recycled, the world was going to be renewed. We need to purify our souls, right?

to then ascend to the next level beyond this existence because it is going to be wiped clean. And we, the two, Marshall and Bonnie, we're the only ones who can spread this message. We're the only ones that can reincarnate you

lead you through this process to get you to the next level. That's what it boils down to. That's what this cult boils down to, their ideas, their beliefs, their kind of doctrine. It does shift over time quite a bit. There's a lot of changes that weave in and out based on

Based on Marshall's mood, basically, like what he wakes up and decides this is what our religion is now. There's a lot of that. But at its core, it is that idea of ascending to a next level through purification of one's soul, basically.

To escape Doomsday. You guys, uh... You guys got any thoughts? Yeah, I was just waiting for the next part, because now we're getting into when it, like, actually starts getting members. They take the show on the road, they get the members, and then it spirals out of control. Yeah, so basically at this point, there are, like, two delusional people who are incorporating a lot of, like,

beliefs of the end times, beliefs of spiritualism, beliefs of Christianity, and kind of compiling it into their own new doctrine. So you can see the groundwork for when they start bringing on people, what these people are being brought into. Exactly. Yeah. And I want to stress at this point on their spiritual journey, they are talking to people

But they are actually yet to convert their first member. They're not a cult yet. They're just two people kind of building the foundation of what would then become the cult through these readings of books and literature. And another note is that Applewhite himself here also read a lot of science fiction. He read a lot of work from Philip K. Dick, who... Fuck, what's it called? The...

The Electric Sheep Dreaming or whatever the fuck that book is called. That would go on to influence Blade Runner. As well as Arthur C. Clarke. Just a lot of science fiction he read. And that obviously painted the more sci-fi elements of the cult going forward. There was still that interest in UFOs and how aliens play into it. Because there is a very strong alien kind of element coming up.

to their whole thing. And it was after this, when they left the forest, their spiritual journey, they received their first convert. So they did receive their first member at this time, one of Bonnie's friends from Houston named Sharon Morgan. So this was a pivotal moment. They're now a cult. What does that look like though? So they find Sharon Morgan. They were already done with the traveling road show, right?

Yeah. Okay. So they were always kind of, they were always kind of like a nomadic cult, but this, this spiritual journey was over at this point. Yeah. Gotcha. So then she's converted. Does she just travel with them now? Just tag along like a new party member in final fantasy. Like how does it work? Exactly. There we go again. Yes. The references. You literally kind of, you need to go get checked for like a note, like a tick or something. Yeah.

No, but yeah, I mean, you're right. It is odd. She did follow them around for a bit, but she did leave the cult a few months later, so they didn't successfully keep their first convert. But I did want to note that this was when they did get their first convert. So she would follow them around for a bit, and then she left them. So when they convert someone, they end up just following them and joining them. Yep, for their lessons and stuff like that. And maybe...

I mean, she did leave a few months later, so maybe they didn't perfect their brainwashing tactics. Well, I never said they were that good at it. Bonnie was unsuccessful. I mean, Sharon was unsuccessful. She didn't stick around. And maybe, hypothetically, I'm thinking maybe they didn't even try to brainwash her at this point. They just believed that their belief

Was that inherently convincing that she would have just stuck around? And then when she did leave, they were kind of like, shit, we've got to employ actual tactics or we've got to keep people around through manipulation. Or maybe Sharon was just unsusceptible to it. I don't know. But regardless, she left.

And then in June 1974, they basically continued what they had been doing. They created a pamphlet that described Jesus' reincarnation as a Texan man. Which he was, dammit. Jesus was born on American soil. He was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, like me. Jesus loved a nice, big, fucking Ford pickup truck and butt blaster.

Jesus who wears a fucking belt with just it's just a Texas state he's got spurs on his like Lone Star State for life he wears snakeskin boots listens to Jason Aldean like he there's a church somewhere with that painting hanging on the wall like oh there has to be

Absolutely. Jesus. The Westboro Baptist depiction of Jesus. Traditionally is painting Jesus as anyone other than Jesus. Like the, the general image of Jesus is that heavily frowned upon as I would think it would be. Uh, do you mean, you mean like within religion? What do you mean by general image? Like painting him as like within, within Christianity, it would painting him as a Texan man would saying Jesus was a Texan man. Would that be offensive? Oh,

It depends on the individual. It would be frowned upon. I'm not going to hate someone for doing that, but I'm not going to hang that up in my house. I'd be like, eh, I'm good. I certainly wouldn't do that, but people can do whatever they want. I don't care. I'm not going to do it. Anyone in the audience, whatever you feel like, I do not condone it. Whatever you feel Jesus is. Yeah, whatever you think he is.

So, Applewhite, this was obviously just comparing himself to Jesus, saying that he's Jesus. Jesus was someone born in Texas, and let's check and see where I was born. Ah, wouldn't you know? Would you look at that?

Yeah. But so this is just a thinly veiled attempt to paint himself as Jesus. Yeah. And in addition to that, they had also directly attributed themselves at this point as the two. So the two witnesses that were described in the book of revelation chapter 11. So can you paint a picture about who the two were in the book of revelations? Yeah. So we have an idea of what they were painting themselves. So the book of revelations or John's revelation, um, is effectively the last prophecy that's given in the scriptures. Uh,

Uh, it's written by John of, um, Patmos, which most people believe to be John the disciple. So John writes this letter that details the end times or the second coming of Christ, because when Christ left for heaven, he said that he would one day return. So that means there's an eventual return of Christ to the church. So he says that he'll one day return and the book of revelations details the events of that return. However,

it is prophecy. And like all of the prophecies in the Old Testament and other parts of the Bible, it is, at least believed by most, highly symbolic of what happens. Like, for example, when Daniel was given prophecies of things that would happen

to uh the empires he was in it didn't it wasn't literal in the sense that it was like oh well he had a vision of the persian army doing this blah blah it would be a vision of a statue or of a tree and something happening to that statue or what have you so the book of revelations is very similar in that it's prophecy of or like visions of the end times coming forward so because of that uh

Revelations is highly debated off what certain prophecies mean, what other interpretations mean. Open to interpretation. Open to interpretation, basically. The only core takeaway that can universally be agreed upon is that Christ will return.

But other than that, there's a lot of debate. So in Revelation chapter 11, there is a portion where it says that two witnesses will come to earth, that they will speak on behalf of Christ, that they will effectively be preachers. They will deliver the knowledge of Christ at the end times of all that, and then they'll be killed. So at the end of their preaching, specifically, they'll be executed by members of the world, those that hate God. So...

Is that literal? Does that literally mean near the end times there will be two prophets, so to speak, who come forward and then are killed? Is that more symbolic? Maybe it's two nations. Maybe it's two groups of people who are destroyed. Who knows? But that is what they are co-opting, saying that they are those two figures mentioned in the books of Revelations. Effectively, they are the two final prophets sent from heaven.

Yeah, which is convenient for them, obviously, because now they get to speak on a place of assumed authority. And, I mean, again, they potentially believed it. They potentially were that delusional where this wasn't malicious, and they actually believed that due to their circumstances where they met together and they kind of fed into one another, they probably actually believed that they were prophets. Yeah. And...

Again, they probably were just honestly extremely mentally ill and completely believable. Already their whole thing is a bit

I know I'm arguing with two like deeply delusional people about this, but their doctrine around the Christianity stuff's already kind of frazzled because the two, the two mentioned in revelation are never mentioned to be God. As a matter of fact, they're mentioned to be people who are killed. Um, that's not Christ. So him describing himself as Christ, but also one of the two prophets doesn't make sense even in his own realm of delusion. But yeah, yeah. He's inconsistent in his inconsistencies.

We'll have to get a Ouija board out and tell them. Yeah. That would be so mean. Tune in for the next episode of the Red Thread. Every fourth episode we contact all the people we talk about. Just to insult them. We'll summon Marshall Applewhite at 3 a.m.

What if you do that, though, Charlie, and he makes a very convincing argument, and then you've just brought Heaven's Gate back into the world? That'd be fucking wild. Yeah, then it will be more than 39. Just you wait. It's like, maybe Jesus was Texan after all. My God. Dag nabbit, he's making a good point, son of a bitch. Westboro Baptist attendance skyrockets in following.

Like you said, they believe they were the two witnesses who were killed and resurrected. They added the addition, though, and this is where the sci-fi element comes into it, that when they would be killed, their physical bodies would ascend to a spaceship after death in something they called the Demonstration.

capital D demonstration. Like this was a big event. And this was around the time that they would actually go full hog on this idea and start visiting other churches to speak and other spiritual groups where they would refer to themselves as the two again, or now they started using the term the UFO too, as well to probably add a spin to it to make them more interesting. I don't know, but they started referring to themselves as the UFO too, as well.

But it wasn't met with much belief or attention at those times, so they still had a bit of work to do. Luckily...

A semi-fortuitous event would come up in where Marshall Applewhite, facing financial difficulties, decided to steal... I guess he failed to return, let's say, a rental car in Kansas, which led to him being arrested and sentenced to six months in jail because apparently being... He used the excuse that he was divinely authorized to keep the car, but...

But this was not a legal defense at the time. The son of God had to steal a rental car. Jesus, God damn it. Yeah, so he was sentenced to six months of jail sentence. And as with a lot of...

historical figures let's say that when they went into jail he used that time wisely to kind of refine his doctrine and become come up with a a really strong core belief that he would then use upon leaving prison so he was in the slammer for six months i didn't know that going in i didn't know that he was actually like a a felon or a criminal but he was he went away for six months

I don't know Bonnie waited for him after that so she waited for him during those six months and then they immediately met up again if you're the two if you're those guys you can wait six months right true yeah that's nothing how do you think the conjugal visits went during that do you think they just like they just stared at each other they just thought a lot

They didn't even have them. They went to the phone, the glass wall or whatever, and just did it right there. Stared at each other. It was very uncomfortable for all the guards, all the family visiting. I would have thought that someone like that in prison, that would have been potentially dangerous for them if they're going around speaking about their delusions and stuff. But apparently he made it out completely fine. He left prison six months later.

after he sentenced and met back up with her. And they again set out to just spread their new age mysticism with the science fiction and religious elements. And it was at this time that they actually started to see results. I'm not exactly sure why it was now that they started to see results, but they did quickly start amassing individuals for their cult. I think, so here's what I think, right? I think that it's potentially

potentially because they shifted audience from religious groups so that they were speaking at religious groups to instead focusing on new age religious groups so instead of the traditional religious groups they started shifting to the new age ones like the astrology tarot cards kind of that kind of element you're not going to find as much like of an audience in churches saying that stuff as you will

Not so much talking about the religious aspect, but agreeing with people on the supernatural elements and then going from there. Yeah, exactly. I think that's probably why there was more success here, because they had less of a chance converting already religiously kind of traditional people with set beliefs.

when they could go after people who were desperate to believe in something new, I guess. So again, like they shifted their audience also to college students primarily. So there was a lot of kind of hippie culture was massive in the seventies. Right. So you had a lot of these kind of, uh, if, if,

I don't know, anti-hierarchy individuals with non-conformist ideas that were more susceptible to the teachings of Marshall, Applewhite and Bonnie. And so those individuals were just, they just latched onto it. And I think they just upped the amount that they were speaking at these kinds of locations like colleges and stuff like that. And every time they would just add more people to the cult and these cult members would then follow them.

into the woods, into their, into their isolated communes. And they would just sit there and just talk about their teachings basically. And kind of in that isolated space away from their families and friends, they would just kind of continuously brainwash them until they were thinking the same. Uh, I have a quote here. Do you want to read this one from Michael Conyers? Who was a former Heaven's Gate cult member. Yeah, I'll read this one. Oh, damn. Okay.

The energy that I felt from him put me into a state of almost fear and awe, because when somebody says and starts owning that he may be or kind of is a representative of the kingdom of heaven, there's kind of an energy that exchanges or that's exchanged between two people. It's like there's a charge that goes on. So these were the kind of people that were susceptible to it, the kind of people that believe in these kind of strong energies between people that kind of...

New Age spirituality mysticism kind of stuff. The spark. The all spark. Yeah, the spark. Thank you. There it is again. As a Transformers reference. Thank you for citing your sources on the reference. I just want to make sure that got across effectively. It's important to note that Jesus may have been Optimus Prime. We don't know for sure.

Yeah, so it was also at this point that the two started referring to themselves in very eclectic names. They started to refer to themselves as Guinea and Pig because they were talking about conducting experiments with aliens. And this was also, I know, it's Guinea Pig, obviously. That's like what the most annoying couple you've ever met would do. I know. Tickling each other's chins, saying the pet names. Yeah. You know they smelled awful. Like,

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They were in those forests for weeks, dude. They were in their wigwams staring at each other intensely. Oh, man. Yeah, it was a spiritual commune. A lot of smells would have been there, I'm sure. So, yeah, they continued to teach this group about the next level, capital N, capital L, next level, which was the central idea of their New Age religion. It was this idea that

There's a level above the level that we're on and we need to become pious or maybe pious isn't the right word. We need to become...

clean of all of our worldly kinds of sensations or desires. We need to just strip it all away, just be empty vessels so that we can exit our vehicles at the end when the aliens come to pick us up in their spaceship. They won't pick us up if we're not in the perfect form. So let's all go to the forest and train together to become as clean as possible using the teachings of Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie to do that. And

And yeah, that's basically what they did just constantly. And they found a lot of success with recruiting new members. It grew to like 80 people, I believe at this time. So you basically need to, you need to get to a point where you are so clean of moral sin or mortal sin that you are able to rise to a higher plane of existence. Basically, it's very Eastern, right?

religion in that sense. Yeah, yeah, it actually is. Yeah, I can definitely see the connections between some Chinese beliefs and stuff like that with needing to cleanse oneself in order to gain a new level of existence or transcendence. I think it's important to kind of note that one of the most important aspects here as to why

this cult got so popular amongst so many individuals, like 80 people, is because Applewhite was just extremely charismatic. And I'm sure that people like Michael Conyers, who Charlie quoted before, genuinely did feel that spark because he was just so charismatic. I think cults, obviously one of the main things that cults need is a charismatic leader. And I think Applewhite was that person for this cult, whereas he was a mouth, he was

He would be the one speaking a lot and taking these kinds of initiatives to recruit members. Whereas Bonnie, I feel like she was the brains behind the organization. She was the one with the plan. She was the one with a kind of... She was the one directing the spirituality aspects of it. And she was also...

Yeah, the one kind of like piecing everything together behind the scenes, keeping it running smoothly. Whereas Applewhite was the one that would bring people in. They changed their names a lot during this time. I don't think they were known as Heaven's Gate at this time. I see the name. That's such a funny name. Yeah, I'm bothered. Yeah, you go ahead and read it. Yeah, okay. So let me read. Yeah. So they started changing their names around. It says the first name they chose was the Anonymous Sexaholic Celibate Church. That's...

oh baby now we're cooking the sexaholic celibate sexaholic celibate which for one is funny but also that's good advertisement because most people are going to see like the name of a group to join and not think anything of it but they're going to turn their head for that like that that makes your attention right um

let's see and well not just that you kind of you kind of draw in people who may be desperate as well yeah which might be good pickings that's true that's true and like most of the time that's what cult leaders do right they prey on people who are in bad conditions most people aren't like living good happy lives and are like yeah i guess these two people are god now you know like it it takes someone who's in dire straits to begin with um

so it says from there the name didn't stick and was changed to the human individual metamorphosis which i mean that doesn't have as much of a ring to it but it is more culty it is more in line with what it sounds like a class that like a spiritual class than anything yeah the human individual metamorphosis yeah that's what we could start calling death we could start saying that

He metamorphosed. Instead of unaliving. Yeah. It was a divine metamorphosis.

So metamorphosis, for those that don't know, is a changing in state, basically. Like when I think about it, I think of like a butterfly coming out of a cocoon, that kind of metamorphosis. So the idea here, and this I think is the most accurate name that they had, especially when compared to the anonymous sexaholic celibate church and the heaven's gate and stuff like that. I think this is actually the most accurate name because it kind of explains their core belief the most.

the most in that they believe that by changing themselves, by changing their state individually, they would be able to ascend to a different level. So I think it is the most accurate name for them. But at some point, I don't know exactly when, they shifted to Heaven's Gate. This was also the time when they started, they removed Guinea Pig and they started using Bow and Peep.

instead. Obviously the idea there is Little Bo Peep was a shepherd. I assume that's what they were going for. So they had their flock. They were Bo Peep, which is just fucking stupid. It just makes me roll my eyes every single time. And then they changed it to Doe and Tee, which is the first and seventh generation

what are they called? Musical scales, right? Yeah, yeah. What's each element? Do, re, mi, fa, so, le, ti. Yeah, yeah. So it's that. They named themselves off the musical scale, which obviously calls back to Applewhite's history as a music professor. Yep, that's a good point. I didn't think about that. But yeah, yeah.

It's kind of sad seeing like the remnants of what he was in this now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's depressing. This spans over like, I don't know, six years by this point. So he's just slowly become more and more deluded. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sad now. Appreciate it. It's going to get sadder. Okay. Don't worry. We've got plenty.

So yeah, they started staying in isolated campsites, as I said, and they were just constantly controlling cult members. Men were required to remove their facial hair and members were required to give up all aspects of their lives, basically interests, hobbies, substances, and media.

It was interesting because the Applewhite didn't necessarily impose control heavily. It was just suggested in that kind of like, he gave you the option of things, but if you didn't take what he wanted, you didn't take his, his decision, they would just kick you out of the cult. You'd be kicked out. So you had free will in the sense that when you exercise free will, you were just kicked out. You have free will to leave. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

So it wasn't like they were holding them at gunpoint there, but it also wasn't like there was any actual free will or, you know, differation from what Applewhite and Bonnie wanted. Because at the end, if you kick everyone out who disagrees with you, you are just left with cultists. You're just left with people who agree with you.

So it was a smart tactic, honestly, because it probably made them seem more open to criticism to the cultists, but also it let them exercise control in a way that wasn't heavy handed. In 1976, they attempted to take further control over the group by gathering as many people as they could to Medicine Bow National Forest in Wyoming to witness a UFO appearance. They put out a call to everyone. At this point, there were a lot of members that weren't actually at the campsites. They were living their lives normally.

Applewhite and Nettles focused primarily on the cultists that were with them so they kind of shunned everyone else who wasn't what's the point of being like a half cult member like I kind of believe in God but I'm not moving there you know I think it's just one of those things where it's kind of like Scientology where even if you don't go to the church of Scientology you can still be a member I see that makes sense you would know a lot about cults Charlie

Scientology was actually founded in Clearwater, I think, right? That's where they're made. Yeah, right next to me. Suspicious. Yeah, but so...

Yeah, but they focused primarily on the people that were with them for good reason. I'm sure Scientology is the same way. Even if there's Scientologists out there that call themselves Scientologists, you're going to primarily focus on the ones inside the cult compound, right? Right, correct. And you have here that in 1975, they decided to cut contact with a lot of those people.

Yeah. Which makes sense. Which makes this event more important because this one actually went out over satellite to everyone. This was a call to arms, basically. They said, hey, guys, big UFO party coming. It's coming down. We're going to the next level. You want to be here at Medicine Bow National Forest in Wyoming because you do not want to miss this trip, right? You got to be on this ship to get to the next level. So everyone come out. Everyone did come out. There was a lot of people.

And then Bonnie Nettles came out and said, yeah, the aliens called up and they basically said they've been delayed. They're in traffic. They're not going to show up. And you may think, all right, so this is this is they got in over their heads or whatever. But no, I think this was a deliberate action to get everyone there in person so they could consolidate their power and attempt to convince those who came there to stay with them. Hold on.

I'm starting to be swayed a little bit. Between that and Applewhite being so charismatic, it implies some level of malice, right? Like she faked a UFO event to get people to show up and stuff. She obviously knew there wasn't going to be a UFO there. There had to be some level of self-awareness because she couldn't relay like, oh, it must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, hit by an asteroid and off course. She would have had to have recognized this was all baloney.

Okay, so is it possible then that one figure was malicious and one was entirely deluded being fed by the malicious person? Maybe, I guess. Maybe they were definitely both mentally ill. Maybe they were coherent enough, though, to recognize there was some manipulation. I don't know. That does make me feel a bit different about them, though. Yeah, I see where you're coming from, definitely. Because you're right, there is some level of...

you know, direct manipulation there where it's obvious that she wouldn't have known the aliens were going to not show up. And yet still they put out the call to get everyone there to consolidate this power. But maybe there is a lot of further rationalizations that we get to down the line where they, they come up with these, you know, antics and then they rationalize it in the way that it's all right. We're doing this because we're trying to save as many people.

We're trying to get people fixed and ready for the final transportation, or the final ascendance, so anything is permissible. Maybe they just in-justified the means, because they saw what they were doing as well. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, exactly. So it's possible that it was malice, and it's also possible that it was just justification caused by their delusions, not sure. So that event

went poorly, not poorly, it went well for the cult. They, they gained members, um, but it went poorly in the fact that no aliens showed up their experiment or the, yeah, the experiment was a failure. Um, and so it was at this point that they really hammered down on the whole cult reeducation aspect. They started to group everyone in, in the cult into what they called star clusters, which were small self-imposed groups of followers. That's actually adorable. Yeah.

Like a buddy system. Because the number of individuals in the cult was getting so fucking large that they couldn't exercise direct control over each individual person. So their idea was, all right, we'll split them up into groups and then we'll let them keep each other in check. Right. And then we just have to report to the leaders of the star clusters to make sure everyone is, you know, in line.

So very methodical. The control was very methodical at this point. And they were ostensibly, through isolation and other cult tactics like re-education and brainwashing, they were becoming the only trusted sources of information. They...

they got a knack for like cute names and stuff like that because like star clusters the stuff we're gonna see later with the nikes and the apple seeds and all that right the money in the pockets the the first name of the group the sexaholics celibate all that like it's catchy they're way too charismatic about it i think to be entirely insane or maybe that's just how

good the delusion i don't know i feel that they're too good of salesmen because i'm kind of getting sold on it when i heard they they had star clusters i'm like oh you're going through your own metamorphosis yeah are these guys still around maybe i'll talk to i'll see what's up well they are actually i mean they are actually still around somehow yeah yeah yeah

There's a quote here from a cult member above, if you guys want to choose who reads that, from Chuck Humphrey. This is from a cult member. So we isolated ourselves in a small group of 60 or 70 people, and we didn't have contact with our families. We were isolated into a circumstance where we could then focus on our change, and there was a continual emphasis on the urgency that we make our change over quickly because we wanted to be ready when they came. There was a sense of urgency, right, that the

the UFO is coming. We need to kick this into overdrive, right? We need to make sure that we're, our spirits are cleansed because we do not want to miss the boat.

So they utilized that kind of, what do you call it? Like that urgency in order to really keep everyone on a minute by minute detail. They micromanaged the hell out of everyone so that there was no room for doubt. In 1979, so 1980s, they moved to Dallas where they rented a number of houses and lived together in the same area. So there was an actual, they left the forest for whatever reason and they actually set up shop in a town in Dallas.

uh, Applewhite and Nettles lived in their own homes while the rest of the cult members were forced to share houses. So there were 80 odd members or sharing houses like dorms basically during this time. And they did something interesting here. They did something really interesting that I don't think I've seen in many other cults in that they actually let the cult members, um, go get jobs. Is that common? Uh, I know, I know the branch Davidians did that. Uh,

Yeah, no, that's not uncommon at all for Colts. There's a few others. Especially because in a lot...

I can't think of any others off the top of my head aside from like... Scientology would. Yeah, except for like obvious ones. That's the only one that I could think of, yeah. The reason being is it makes sense. You don't want your cult to be broke, right? Like you have to afford these houses somewhere and you can take money from your followers. So the idea would be get them jobs and then you get a portion of their income to your organization. I get why, but...

The issue is you lose that sense of isolationism when you're putting them back into the community. You're letting them take part in the natural freedom of ideas and conversations with co-workers and stuff like that. It puts your cult in a much more dangerous position than if you were to keep them all locked in your own bubble, basically. And that's why I said I don't think I've seen it in many other cults because when you consider other cults,

um they're usually like shackled up in a commune somewhere working together to to kind of make the community work that way instead of monetarily yeah it just depends on like sometimes it depends on the stage of the cult because i know like uh jonestown initially when it was in california the members uh had jobs or like the anthill kids initially they had jobs but as the cult becomes more

aggressive, more focused, getting near their endgame. They'll encourage people to quit, to move, to do stuff like that. But for some that aren't in the moments of planning their demise, that thing can be seen happening. At the very least, a lot of cults will steal people's social security checks. Yeah. And there is still that element here where particularly the wealthy individuals of the cult...

would give up their trust funds to the cult itself. So they were definitely siphoning money through those avenues as well. And obviously they took the paychecks for whatever jobs these people worked. So there's still that financial aspect. Definitely. I'm not denying that. I felt like it was weird. It felt like it was weird to me that they... It's weird because it feels like they could get away. Right?

It's weird to like because you think in your head that these people have to be like 24 seven pumped full of information, information, indoctrination to stay inside this mind frame. But when they're allowed to, like, go out and leave and then come back, it's kind of more scary because it gives the idea that it's set in so well. You don't need to constantly doctor it like it's taken root.

And they probably utilized their star clusters to some degree as well, like made sure that there was also always a co-worker who was aligned with the cult working at the same time, stuff like that, so they could still keep a check on things. They worked in star clusters, perhaps, yeah. Yeah.

And also another interesting note during this period in Dallas was that they literally paid people to leave the cult if they weren't considered devoted enough. They literally paid members to leave. Oh, a severance check is so sweet. Yeah. Yeah, like a little retirement fund. Bro, easiest paycheck of your life. Show up, be a pain for an hour, take your check, get out. Yeah.

I wonder how much they were paid. I didn't have any information on that. That's how you know a cult's doing too well. They can lose members and be like, bye, thanks. They can lose members, yeah. Thanks for trying it. Thanks for trying it. They're only one of the most devoted.

Do you think they had an exit review or anything like that? There's a survey you picked up on your way out. Google form. Yeah, so they paid people to leave and it was all going well. They still implemented tests at this point as well where they would make cult members stand outside for days waiting for a UFO to show up and then they'd come out and say, psych, basically. That's

That's just funny. That's just good practical joking. That's a good prank, yeah.

Oh, God's coming. You looked, idiot. Stupid. It was a way of obviously testing their faith. Those that didn't stay out there for the days were kicked out of the cult without severance payments. But those that stayed were obviously, they passed the test and they would continue to allow the privilege of being with the cult. So this time period was just kind of

messy really it was just all of that it was just like in Dallas they were working they were continuing to spread their gospel and they were continuing to consolidate power and then in 1983 something enormous happened that just irreparably shifted the cult to where it ends up Bonnie Nettles had

had to have her eye removed due to cancer, and she passed away from cancer several years later in a hospital alone. Marshall Applewhite never told her family, well, didn't tell her family until six months after she passed away. And it's said that this loss devastated Applewhite just completely. It sent him into a deep depression, and it also devastated his theology and his idea of what the cult was. Because...

Well, it devastated it to the members because reading it here, he had talked about how when they ascend to the next level, it's like the whole body ascends. But since Bonnie died, her body can't ascend. So it's a huge hole in the whole belief system to the members. Plus, his whole thing with the two from Revelation is that the two of them were denied together in some grand fashion. And she died alone in a hospital room. So that collapses that belief as well.

Yeah, especially since... Yeah, they were supposed to be taken by the aliens, and the aliens did not take Bonnie. Yeah. Yeah, you think of it... So, the death that they refer to is not a death in the common sense. It's more of like a...

an abduction, like the bodies, uh, bodies in the vessels and the spirits are taken by the aliens to go to the next level. It's a death in the, like, I guess the metaphorical sense, right? It's a passing from one state to another, not a death as in like Bonnie's just died of cancer. Right. Like that's completely, it's completely different. And it made the theology impossible. And he needed to change the doctrine now to include death, uh,

which is where we are obviously we can kind of see where this is going already now that death has to be a central part of the idea yeah I mean it's pretty obvious where this has to go

So as an attempt to, this was an interesting note, as an attempt to fix the broken belief system, because members were obviously asking what happened to T or pig or whatever, peep or whatever the other fucking names they chose. Yo, where's pig? Where's that pig in your hands? Where's your pig wife at?

Yeah, they had to... So he had to come up with an excuse and he said that Bonnie had too much spiritual energy. She was overflowing like a battery. She had to release her soul in order to reach the next level. There was just too much spiritual energy inside for her to handle. The cup running over. Maybe when I get someone killed in an accident, their energy just, whoa, took off. That's crazy.

It's hilarious. Someone you know dies and you're just like, man, did you see that? That was wild. Way too much energy. So there's another quote here from Chuck Humphrey, if one of you wants to read it, from 1975. He was a cult member from 1975 to 1977. So he's actually still a believer, which is interesting. So if you want to read it there. I think I did the last Chuck one, so I'll do it again.

It put not just do to the test, referring to Applewhite, but it put all of us to the test of our commitment to the next level. Do we think this is real or do we think this is just a con game? So it planted that seed of doubt, clearly. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely, I mean, it was, again, antithetical to their entire basis of their belief system. So if the individuals of the cult see that

One of the disciples, one of the two witnesses is dead and the other is still alive. It throws everything up in the air. So obviously there would be a lot of doubt there at that moment. I mean, if God dies, like where do you go from there? Right? Yeah, exactly. Like how do you change the belief system in order to fix that?

So, Applewhite was depressed after this point, increasingly depressed and became a lot more eccentric and manic. It was at this point that some of the more cult... I mean, it's already a very cult-like cult, but it got more cultish. He symbolically married all of his followers and told them that their so-called salvation would come through him and him alone. He stripped any kind of freedom that the cultists may have previously enjoyed. And he also stripped away any of the kind of semblances of scientific language in the cult's doctrine. Like,

Not that there was much there to begin with, but he kind of shifted to a more charismatic and faith-based system where he continued to paint himself as the Jesus-like figure that was their salvation and he required their complete and utter devotion. To solve the theological issues that Bonnie's death had created, Applewhite decided that to ascend to the next level, the body would die and the soul would be resurrected and brought up to the next level instead. They would then be placed into a new body on the alien spaceship.

And that continued, that continued for, he continued for the next 10 years, basically operating under this kind of, uh, belief system. His delusions would grow. His paranoia grew, especially, was it at this time that Waco happened? Uh, what year is this? About? This would be like 1993. Yeah. 93 was Waco. Yeah.

Yeah. So it was around that time that he was seeing other cults being taken down and his paranoia was growing due to that. And the more apocalyptic elements were started, started to be introduced into the cults theology more directly in that there were, there was an alien race that was puppeteering Luciferian figures in the world. And, and,

The government was out to get them stuff like that. He was he was very heavily deluded There's a lot of like you can see all the different pieces that are putting together where this leads his wife dies So therefore death has to become a part of it now The world is getting worse people with strange belief systems are being attacked It's very easy to demonize the government as an agent of this chaos like yeah, you can you can see where the pieces are falling into place and

Yeah, it becomes a very chaotic situation from this point on. In 1993, they changed their name to Total Overcomers Anonymous. Not sure why they stuck to the whole anonymous thing so heavily. Total Overcomers Anonymous.

They also incorporated a new naming system. I'm not sure if it was at this point or earlier, but they started... They removed all semblances of identity from the individuals and all sex characteristics as well. So everyone had to have shaved heads or the same haircut and no sex characteristics were able to be shown. The naming system was interesting. You would take two consonants...

The first consonant would be capitalized, and then the second one, I think, would be doubled. And then you would add Odie on the end. So if I were to take my name and remove all the vowels and stuff and take the first two consonants, I would be JCC Odie, which would be Jacody. And that's how everyone referred to themselves. Wait, so you take... Fun game, kids. Figure out your Heaven's Gate cult name. Yeah, I'm actually really struggling here. So hold on. Say that again. You take your first...

So take the first two consonants of my name, of my first name, which for me is, well, my name's Isaiah, so it's all vowels. So it's S-H.

Okay. Yep. And then you double the second. I think you doubled the second consonant, so it would be S-H-H. Okay. And then you add Odie. So my name's Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody. Chody.

Bro, you're getting bullied out of the cult immediately. That's awesome. We are dogfellowing you instantly. Yo, look at this guy, Chody. Can't even join a cult without getting bullied. Unlucky. That is the lowest name. Chody and Chody. You're for the fun.

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Oh man. Alright kids, you heard him. In the comments, drop those cult names. Oh, that's good. Alright.

That's so good. Applewhite also at this point, they must have been making a lot of money. He paid for a $30,000 ad in USA Today. Oh, gosh. Brought in only an extra 20 people to the cult. So at this point, the cult was running at about 46 members. Because a lot of people left after Bonnie died, right? Because it was 80 at one point. Okay, gotcha. Yeah.

So they were struggling to bring back members so they thought an ad in USA Today would be their answer. I mean it brought in 20 people but that's a bad return on investment of $30,000 1990 money which would be way more now. Guys I know how we can grow the podcast. I just need $30,000. Is the USA Today still around? Yeah it is. Okay sweet.

I tried to find the ad, but I couldn't. I would be interested to know what that looked like. So, yeah, this continued for a while there. Like I said, they removed all of the sex characteristics from their identity. And this is probably the... Well, beyond the unaliving that is about to take place, this is probably the darkest aspect or the most... I guess the biggest...

The biggest act of devotion, I would say, he took, I think it was six members with him to Mexico to castrate themselves. So they collectively went and castrated themselves, believing that it was the final vestige of humanity tying them to their vehicles, what they called their vehicles, which was their bodies. So it was the final act of cleansing, um,

There's a quote here from Michael Conyers again, if you want to read that based around that conversation. Yeah. So highlighting Marshall Applewhite was talking about how far would you go in order to attain your mission? And so he evidently was entertaining, castrating himself, getting rid of the human need to reproduce or that hormonal impulse to be attracted to the opposite sex or to be attracted to any sex. I started going, whoa, I don't know if I,

I can't really go for this.

Yeah, so I think that was the point where a few members may have left, including Michael. I'd say that would be my exit point as well. Yeah, if I was asked to castrate myself, that's, yeah, that's not... I mean, but people did. Ten people did. Or, I mean, nine, I guess, did do it. So that just speaks to the level of devotion. I mean, what speaks more to the level of devotion, though, is shortly after that, in October 1996...

The group rented a mansion in Rancho Santa Fe, California, which you may remember from the beginning story, in fact, the story at the very beginning of the podcast. That very same mansion, believe it or not. I didn't come up with that out of thin air. That was a real mansion. That would go on to become the final site of the cult.

It was also at this point that Applewhite heard about the Hale-Bopp comet, and he came to be convinced that trailing the comet was a spaceship that Bonnie was piloting. So Bonnie was in charge of a UFO behind the comet, and he was convinced that this was their ticket to the next level. There's also this section here where you have that he begins to incorporate the idea that Jesus is an alien.

And that like this, he lives on another planet full of higher order beings. So the whole UFO behind this comment falls into the idea. Oh, Bonnie went to be with God, the place we're supposed to be. And now she's coming to pick us up. Yeah.

So it still ties in that kind of dual messenger thing to reincorporate Bonnie into the story saying that, okay, because of our connection, because we're the two witnesses or whatever, she's speaking to me telepathically. She's telling me she's in the ship behind the comet. This is our one ticket off. And so they updated the website. They put out a red alert basically saying that this is our chance. The comet is flying over Earth and this is going to be our moment.

They released a press statement on the website saying that we're prepared to take any means necessary to board the ship. We believe that the ship will come land and pick us up in our vehicles, but we are prepared to take any action necessary in order to make the jump. And there's also an interesting message on the website. I think it's called their position against...

Position against unaliving in which they talk about how they don't believe their action qualifies as unaliving. Them missing the ship is actually what would qualify as unaliving because they're choosing to go on to live in hell.

in a different plane of existence. They're choosing to continue to live. Effectively, the bodies that they have right now are just like a cage that they're true forms inside of. And their whole purpose is to get on the ship as it passes. So it would be suicide to not release yourself from the cage. Exactly. Yeah. And that's

That's what all the cult members were convinced of. Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. I don't know why we didn't get on board with it. Yeah. I also... That whole idea of doing that and getting on the ship is very interesting because to me, it almost feels like video game-esque with a respawn point. They think that if they do it any other time,

They don't get to that ship. It has to be in close proximity. And then there's like a certain amount of distance it can be that they can make it. Because otherwise, why wouldn't they just do it instantly? The second he got telepathically talked to by Bonnie that she's piloting the ship.

Yeah, yeah. There's like a proximity issue. Yeah. There's a proximity issue there. She has to be close enough to beam them up. I'm not sure if there was an explanation by Applewhite talking about that. If anyone... I don't think anyone in the cult that was still there at this point would have even asked. I think they were that devoted that they're like, yep, makes perfect sense.

have to unalive ourselves to get teleported up using the grav lifts or whatever. Yeah, though, to be fair, though, it does sound like initially he painted it as that's going to come down and pick us up so then they could just, you know, walk on board. But when that didn't happen, maybe in a panic, he's just like, OK, now do this and we'll automatically get transported there. So they didn't even stop to think about how ridiculous that was.

I don't think so. I mean, this all happened pretty quickly. I think the month leading up to Hale-Bopp orbiting Earth or whatever it was, crossing over Earth. I don't think it happened like that because, again, the message on the website paints a picture that they knew all of their options. And I think Marshall knew that unaliving was going to be the route that they had to take. I don't think he was delusional to the point where...

where he believed that the spaceship was actually going to land. He was, he was at this point, he was so mentally unwell, depressed and looking for a way out that I think he wanted to commit unalive. And this was his way of way of doing that, I guess, while retaining his image, he had to take his cult with him to continue his delusions.

I think this was his way out. Yeah. So on March 22nd, 1997, Applewhite, as well as 38 cult members dressed in Nike shoes and black uniforms that were inscribed with patches that read Heaven's Gate Away Team, which by the way, that is weirdly cute. Like they were wearing like baseball outfits

outfits i guess like they're the away team well going back a lot of people have interpreted interpreted have interpreted uh the outfits they're wearing to have a lot of symbolism around it so like nike's motto just do it um oh yeah or like they had they they had uh i mean you're going to mention it in a second the money and stuff like that but there's a lot of symbolism and like the clothing they were wearing and stuff like that

Yeah, I didn't know what the Nikes meant, but I guess that could be a potential reason for that. Or maybe he just liked Nikes. Maybe they were just really comfortable.

Yeah. He had to choose a kind of shoe anyway, if they were all going to wear the same shoes. Another thing to point out, like, I know, like, we mentioned it, but, like, with the exit statements, like, their final words before they all die. I've seen that video, and, like, the saddest thing about it to me is you can just tell from the way a lot of these people are talking that they're clearly, like, not well mentally. Yeah.

A lot of them are the type of people who can be easily manipulated or they have like some kind of learning disability. So to hear them talk about how they're going to go join this greater form to reach this greater place, leave their vehicles.

it's tragic how evil the actions of this cult are regardless of how in on it Applewhite was or not. It's very tragic all around. Yeah, absolutely. It's...

It is mentally unwell people being kind of guided to a path that they didn't... Or a conclusion that could have entirely been avoided through so many different avenues. So many different... Like I said at the start, it's like a perfect storm of two people with delusions meeting each other. One being...

unfortunately charismatic enough to be able to spread that message without too much resistance and then it coming to a point where they were able to brainwash susceptible people into continuing to believe their beliefs and then also that person becoming depressed enough

And his proclivity for unalive high enough where it ended in this way. There was just so many off ramps, you know? And plus, too, like, it is the natural endpoint of all these different philosophies. Like, I'm God, she was God, or effectively, like, I'm the messenger or whatever. And then she's dead, so her soul must have gone on. So now my soul needs to go on, and the follower's soul needs to go on. Like, it...

In a weird way, it makes sense. There's no other end point. Yeah, there's no other end point for everything that this had been building up to. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it needed to end this way because the religion wouldn't be able to continue on past the two primary figures, the two biblical figures that they had painted themselves off to be. So there was only one way out. And yeah, over the course of three days in this mansion, they would commit a series of unalive...

unalive events where members consumed barbiturates as well as alcohol in order to fall asleep and stop breathing they would also place sacks over their heads and then wait for death basically applewhite was one of the very last to die and his unaliving was assisted by four people who would then also commit unalive after applewhite was confirmed to have been deceased or metamorphosist

Each body was also then found to have been left with $5 of nickels, but there's no direct explanation in the writings as to why. I'm sure you guys immediately also thought the same as I did in that it was a bus fare, basically, like...

like how the river sticks caron would you know need payment in order to ferry people across the the river sticks that's that's the only thing i could think of like it's a bus fare for the ufo basically yeah um there was gosh i'm having trouble remembering it right now uh let me look at this i forgot about this detail i would have looked it up beforehand but there was something to the effect of um

It comes from a song, if I remember right, because they ate applesauce too. Like the thing that killed them was like an applesauce blend. It was something about a song about like all you need to get to heaven is a few dollars and apples. I'll find the exact reference here in a second. But similar to the Nike thing, I think it was kind of symbolism of what they were doing. Right. More direct symbolism from some kind of song. Yeah, yeah.

Was it a biblical song or was it a modern pop culture song? No, I'm looking for it right now. No, it would have been pop culture. It was like a pop culture reference, yeah. Charlie's Wheelhouse. Yeah, Charlie's in on it. I don't think it'd be a religious song talking about needing money to get into heaven or something. So there's a quote here from Marshall Averwhite that was posted onto the website, I think shortly before the act was taken. Charlie, do you want to read it?

You can follow us, but you cannot stay here and follow us. You would have to follow quickly by also leaving this world before the conclusion of our leaving this atmosphere in preparation for its recycling. Yeah.

So he was still at the final moments, he was trying to convince the world to follow in his actions, which is weird because I thought the whole idea of the religion was that you had to undergo rigorous cleansing. You had to cleanse your spirit of all the things that held it back. But now he's saying you can just do it.

You don't need to follow any of the teachings. Just do what we did. Quick, get on! Quick, quick, get on the ship! Bonnie's got so much room. Do you think that the other cult members read that and were like, what the fuck, dude? They got castrated for nothing? Yeah, it's like, come on, man. I remember this. During the unaliving, or the arising, I should say, they wore patches that said Heaven's Gate Away Team.

implying that they were like traveling to the game they were supposed to be on um yeah yeah like a baseball team yeah like a baseball team yeah yeah there's a lot of it's it's so morbid because of what it led to um it's also really depressing because you see you see where like this was appealing to a lot of people who could be easily swayed by stuff it's it's it's equally interesting and sad yeah it's a really fascinating event overall but i mean 39 people

tell victim to this kind of pressure is it is sad so they also I did include the conclusion of Chuck Humphrey's quotes here because there was an interview with him that I watched where he was talking about his experiences in the cult and he had a very interesting final statement regarding his regrets for not being there at the end if one of you wants to read it I'll take Chuck again here

I wish that I was with them. It's not really a regret in the sense that, gee, I lost my chance at a million dollar lotto because I lost the ticket or I didn't play today. It's more of a kicking myself for not having done enough of my own homework. As long as I'm still here, I can't do anything but share what I know about the next level and about Heaven's Gate.

So say even beyond, even beyond the action, there's still devoted members. It's really funny that they got left behind to run the website. It's like, no, you don't get to go to heaven. This is more important. Yeah. Chuck Humphrey did still die. He just didn't die in the mass unaliving event. So he was unsuccessful in an attempt. And then in 1998, tried again and took his own life. Apparently,

He attached a tent to his car exhaust based on what I can find. That interview I watched must have been from before that. He did a lot of interviews after the massive departure, the metamorphosis. He did do quite a few interviews from what I can tell. And then the following year took his own life.

It's just like even beyond the actual cult itself, like the cult actions that led to the metamorphosis, like it's just, it persisted for a while after that. There were still people that believed it intrinsically. The brainwashing was that successful. Yeah, there was very deep brainwashing. Here's a whole article about it from 1998 on CBS called Do Not Revive.

So he did it to himself in a desert in western Arizona wearing dark clothes like the 39 cult members the previous year. So he's that desperate to follow in their footsteps. Yeah. Imagine if he was revived though and you dragged him back from the next level. He's on the spaceship like, wait, wait, wait. Get him pulled to her. No, they opened the airlift. Ha ha ha.

drags back down you sons of bitches it was perfect up there oh no yeah there's a quote here from uh from heaven's gate away team returns to level above human in distant space from their press release that says during a brief window of time some may wish to follow us if they do it will not be easy the requirement is to not only believe who the representatives are but to do as they did

Yeah.

But if this is not possible, it is not required. You must call on the names of T and O to assist you. In so doing, you will engage a communication of sorts, alerting a spacecraft to your location, where you will be picked up after shedding your vehicle and taken to another world by members of the kingdom of heaven. So, I mean, that's crazy. Um...

And again, to your point, Charlie, if you could just do it and send out a signal to the fucking spaceships to come pick you up, what was the point of the Halley's Bop comet? Yeah, it doesn't sound like you needed that at all. They could have just done it at any point. Hold on. I found you can also insert this anywhere to make me look less stupid or you can leave it here.

And we can, the stupidity. Okay. Gotcha. Uh, so the $5 70, they had $5 and 75 cents in their pocket, which is a reference to a Mark Twain story in which it said it costs five 75 to ride the tail of a comet to heaven. So, um,

So it's a reference, not a song, but an old Mark Twain story. Uh, there are other people who said other former cult cult members who said they would keep change in their pocket whenever they left the house. So they think maybe it was symbolic of we're leaving the house quote unquote to go to heaven. So that's why they had it in their pocket. Uh, but a former member stated the Mark Twain story. Uh,

Which, I mean, like, the fact that the Mark Twain story says 575 to ride the tail of a comet to heaven sounds pretty, you know, conclusive, I think. On the nose, yeah. Yep, I agree. Exactly. To end this, I think, this explanation for why this ended the way it did from a professor from the Institute for the Study of American Religion, Dr. Gordon Melton, who

I think this is a very interesting quote. In the case of Heaven's Gate, originally the shift was to a waiting mode. We are waiting and during this time of waiting, we will prepare ourselves, we will purify ourselves, we will cleanse ourselves, we'll make ourselves beings fit for the spaceship when it finally arrives. That's a dangerous mode because eventually you have to give up the waiting. I think that's interesting because that is kind of the personification or it just sums it up so nicely that...

Their entire time was spent waiting for something and then it finally had to happen. Doe or Marshall Applewhite was backed into a corner of his own making and this was what he considered his only way out. And that's why it happened. And I think there's a succinct way of kind of summing it up. I think that's everything though. I think we've kind of touched on everything unless you guys had anything additional to add. Maybe more about the website.

I don't know who's still maintaining it. I couldn't figure out who was still maintaining the website. I mean, we could do it. If they asked us to, we could probably throw our two cents in as I look at a picture of a dead guy in Nike shoes. Like, we got it covered, yeah. No, I have no idea who's maintaining it either.

Yeah, GoDaddy just keeps it up for prosperity. No, there has to be someone working on it. I'm sure. The original fucking Space Jam website is still up. There's people that maintain websites for some reason. But for just a little additional information, I think if anyone's ever curious, I remember watching some of the Heaven's Gate tapes. They're on YouTube now. I just double checked. All of them are on YouTube. Well, they're still on the website. They're also on the website. Oh, I didn't know they were on the website still.

Well, three of them are. I don't know about how many are on YouTube. No, they have like every single Heaven's Gate tape is on YouTube. Like all their initiation ones and everything. Interesting. Well, yeah, go watch it to just kind of see the level of

brainwashing on effect the level of delusion on effect yeah go watch a super depressing video of like mentally unwell people moments before they quote unquote elevate that's a good weekend activity yeah as a fun Christmas activity for the holiday season gather around with the family by the fireplace instead of watching elf or national lampoon's Christmas vacation you can watch the heaven's gate tapes

You get your grandma to turn on the Heaven's Gate exit statements. Oh my gosh. What a Christmas. What a holiday.

I think that's everything from me, though. There's a lot, like, there is so much here. There's 24 pages. I'm gonna link the document will be linked in the show notes down below, the description, so you're able to peruse it. Look at our research. We didn't touch on everything, obviously, because we're already at two hours, and it's just, there's so much. Yeah, he's got a lot written here about, like, their philosophy, a lot of their, like, the prophecies that they used to justify what they did. Like, Jackson's a machine. Tell you what. Yeah.

Yeah, I wish we could have touched more on their philosophy and like the specific manipulations that they utilized. But I think we did a good job going over the core events, painting a picture of everything there without needing to go into unnecessary detail and things like that.

Yeah, I think so as well. That was so cool. You do such a good job at these. Incredibly depressing, but great job. Yeah, great job, Jackson. Well, next time we'll be a cryptid or something less depressing. You want to talk about Mothman next? We've had Jackson reading about the most tragic group unaliving ever. And it's like, you doing good, man? How's...

Ah, they have funny names. Just do it. Am I right? Ha ha. Yeah, no, it was super interesting because my information or my understanding of Heaven's Gate was basically the same as your guys going in. Like the...

just the unaliving event itself, just because it's so prevalent in pop culture. Like it's referenced in a lot of things like Family Guy and shit like that. So that was my understanding of it. And then just to go into the gritty details about everything, just the collapse of their lives, the leader's lives that would then shift to this kind of

kind of just sad, tumultuous end. By the end, there's like that sad mention that the police couldn't, they had trouble identifying the bodies because all of them had their hair cut the same way, they all looked the same way. I remember reading something about this cult that they were so particular that like,

They made sure their pancakes were the same size every day for everyone. So no one got bigger or smaller. Like everyone looked exactly the same. And then they all die together wearing the same uniforms. Same thing in their pockets. All of them had their, apparently their IDs with them, which is how, you know, the police identified them. It it's,

It's tragic all around how all these people had their identities, their personalities ripped away from them ultimately to just die at a house in California. So thanks, Jackson. That was real depressing. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks, Jackson. You said it, not me. That's going to do it for this episode of Red Thread. Thank you all for listening to this long one. I really appreciate it. If you want to help us out, the best way to do it really at this point is just to share it with friends. Just send it to like-minded people who like

Learning about stuff like this or listening to three, well...

I don't know what to call us now. Three idiots. Three goofballs. There you go. Chat about this kind of stuff with pop culture references thrown in for good measure. This is the place to do it at the Red Thread. There'll be links below to Spotify, other stuff like that. If you want to send us even higher on the charts, Joe Rogan, we're coming for you. You son of a bitch. We're right on your heels. You can do that. If we pass Joe Rogan, we have to do something. There has to be some kind of...

What will we do? I don't know, but we'll do something. Yeah, we gotta do a thing. We gotta do some physical thing. Let's not say we'll do something crazy directly after talking about Heaven's Gate for two hours. No. Thank you all for watching the Red Thread. I appreciate it. Alright. Charlie, take us out of here. Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thank you, everyone. That was it. Alright, bye-bye. Yeah, alright.

Thanks, guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.