I Went to Couples Therapy (ft. Orna Guralnik) [VIDEO]
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What is your daddy game? IT is your founding father, alex Cooper, with call her. Doctor or nag onic, welcome back to call her daddy. I am in shock. That has been what I think it's three plus years, right?

unbelievable. I I I so of didn't feel like I was three years. I ve IT feels like a year and a half ago.

right? Yeah I guess it's also because like we do stay connected and we do communicate through email, which makes me so happy um but we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years, which is bananas to me to anyone who is new here, daddy, gay or not, is a psychologist and psychology. Alyse and SHE is the star on the docker series couples therapy, where you council real patients about their lives in their coupled dynamic. And a new season is coming out, yes, and math is screwed because when a new season of couples therapy es out, I go, M, I, A, I sit in my room and I binged the entire thing in one sitting. So thank you.

okay. You have to explain to me how you process all of that information, like in one binge.

I think it's because I get so invested in these people's live yeah and I want to know, like are they going to stay together? Are they are gonna progress? Like what is the trauma that they're about to like? I think that feels like the most real show i've ever watched like you're so incredible, like extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable but also like you fall love with these people yeah you know and I love that we get to see their homework and we get to see them as like real humans and it's not just this like fake facade of like a unshot to watch people talk about trauma. So i'll be benching i'm very.

very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.

On this show, I have been so open about my therapy journey, i've been open about having a psychologist as a mother. And just like what that has allowed me to embrace in my life, maybe where people who were raised in a home that, like wear N T as open about therapy IT has more like a negative connotation and stigma. But couple therapy, I feel like everyone now was like, oh my gosh, you get into therapy is the best thing. Couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples. Why do you think they're such a big stigma around IT?

Well, I think first of all, there is this. I don't remember if we talked about IT last time, but there's this late, really intense firewalls. Couples in general, what people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles in trouble in their couples relationship with other people.

There are some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of some kind of sad of what a couple is like, especially when people get married um so in that sense, it's not only the couple therapy, it's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people. They don't want to talk about IT, they don't want to expose IT. Um it's almost like their calling in bad spirits if they talk about IT too.

Good point. And I also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment, then when the next day you're fine and you at the park and your smiling, you almost feel this shame of like o am embarrassed and I feel like I can't recover from what I shared, like I definitely had moment in the very beginning of my relationship with map. We're like I would share with a friend if we had a fight.

And then I felt a little awkward because, like we were still together, but like we worked through IT and and then the friend, this is almost like wing to check in on you and you kind of don't want to keep bringing IT up. So it's like there's this like social element of you don't need to they don't see everything right. And when you share the bad, they also don't want .

to leave that pression. And also you are responsible. You have another person's trust in your hand. yeah. So talking about IT is a little bit like does your partner have the consent? If you have, they given the consent that it's complicated.

How does someone know if they should start couple therapy with their partner?

Funny people ask me that i'm not of the of the school that believes that everyone to be a couple therapy and it's always good. I I don't think so. Um I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea. If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not like not a growth pattern that keeps repeating and you and your partner are trying different ways to change IT and nothing's changing, you feel like you're kind of stuck and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse, that's a good time to bring in a third person and try to get some perspective on IT.

Do you feel like if someone comes to you and is like, i'm terrified, he's gna cheat and you're like, what has he gave any any reason that he's going to cheat and she's like, no, but my past and whatever, then it's like, would you ever be like so you probably need to go to individual therapy, right?

okay. Yes, that's not a good idea to go a couple therapy .

in that moment, anything that happened.

But people sometimes do that. It's like they think of IT is like primarily canceling, like tell me how to like, avoid all the problems that life is gonna ent me with and it's like there's no way life gonna present you with problems and patterns are going to emerging. E and you can't like protect yourself against IT.

It's life. It's like going live IT and when you need to get someone to help you. And then on the other end of things, if people wait too long, sometimes it's too late, really.

I mean, it's it's a very sad thing but you I see sometimes couple that come in after years and years of slogging IT and and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues and by the time they come in, there is just like not enough good goodwill left in them, not enough love or not enough hope. And as much as they try, it's really hard to resurrect the relationship. So that's interesting. So that's kind of the window for me.

Okay, what if someone sitting here listening or not and is like, I want to go to couples therapy so badly, but my partner refuses and has no interest like all in how do you deal with that?

There is one thing which is to get over the hump of starting therapy, which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing um and that getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I can tell people look just like ask your partner, give that a try or barter you know say something like if you come with me a couple therapy, i'll offer this for you.

I'll go your way in some other way you know we can go like take that trip i've always refuse to do or I know yeah so getting people through the doors are not that hard. But then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place, is a place where both of them can get something out of IT. Because I think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged into a therapy office and they're going to be ganging up on and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them, to change in a way that they don't feel is right for there.

More it's not gonna for them. And you know the the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person. And I think once two people feel like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from IT are going .

to want to stay yeah I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant in like I think so many people are like, i'm literally going to get attacked yeah and I guess there, if you could like explain to people maybe they are listening. Like what can they expect in couples therapy because you're right, I think people are terrified of IT. I think that the person that sets IT up, the other person is like, oh, there you guys have a plan and i'm not in on IT and you guys are going to trying to like push me into a corner like how would you explain IT to someone who has never done IT but is a little repetitious about going into IT but is like or what what am I gonna walk into?

A really good question um I think what I would say to people is like think about therapy about couple's therapy is a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship and to have in the therapist an ally of the relationship, someone who can help you in your partner get to something that you actually want together. Meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered.

I mean, there are moments when people are gna face difficult things about themselves and be asked to grow and expand and and maybe give more then they're used to. But the ultimate ideas that you're you're there to gain, you're there to gain something that matters to you. And if that's not happening in therapy.

you'll not in the right place. I think that's incredible to hear though because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you and that is intimidating because vulnerability is intimate in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapy actually acts toward to you could be like, oh, this pitch is gonna ck and judge me and going to tell, ma, and why are we opening all this up? I'm fine right now yeah and it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts and then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood when you're in your home, the way your parents treat you that .

you like it's all connected. Like why people don't go, for example, to have a mora colonography, that they're both like afraid that it's going to be painful fear and they're afraid of like what they are ongoing to find out and that is not what happens in therapy. IT should feel I mean, it's not like luna. It's not like fun fun but I should feel like an good experience of like being heard, understanding someone else kind of in a .

Richard deeper way there's clarity and truth.

yeah.

So i'm curious. I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to and are trying to learn how to manage conflict. I mean, it's like that every relationship, how do we fight?

How do we communicate? How are we gna handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with .

the partner? There's people I don't have to call IT a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong, is first. Well, just on the simple level of level of agitation, like again, like I was talking earlier about like a window, like a good window.

There's a good window in which decent conversations can happen and that's when you're not either too upset or too activated or two wounded that you can actually process. And then the conversation is not a real conversation. It's just like either a crying, screaming whatever match ah in on the other end, you can people can feel so um shut down or hopeless that they're not really engaging.

There's they're withdrawing from the conversation. So so the the maybe the most basic thing for people for a good conversation, for a good conflict would be to make sure you're in the right zone, you're not to shut down and you're not to over whatever agitated yeah the other big kind of still tactical issue is and and this is that might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something in when are you actually trying to understand then shot fired.

Yeah right. It's huge. IT seems like .

IT should be simple, right? But it's huge. And I see IT in my couples. I actually just add a session with a couple this morning um where they kind of realized that difference in what how IT will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing convincing but and he changes everything.

IT does because it's like when you're in those moments, you almost have blinders on where you like. I will get him to understand my point hello, high water. Yeah and he's on the other side being like I need heard to understand what i'm saying and so you're just like hitting a wall and at the balancing back at you, you feel crazy and you're like, no, how do you hear me like and then it's like if you can get to a Better yes or nothing penny, yes. It's like get increasingly frustrated.

Both sides get increased because it's not a conversation.

It's not it's funny. I IT reminds me of in the beginning stages of my relationship with mat has so funny. I think I had like met him right around the time .

that we get can't hear like the upon what happens.

So it's so funny because we have were both in personal therapy, and I don't think i've ever even said this on the show. We went to couple therapy, and IT was in the begin of our relationship. I reached out to you.

Do you remember this? Yeah, I reached out to you and I asked you, do you have a good couple? I was like, wink.

And who do I send you to by the way, you.

me too. Oh my god. I'm going to have to find her name. Choose incredible. But he was amazing. And I was in the beginning age, di g, and ever told you this, that and I went to a couples therapy. And I remember in the beginning of talking about IT with friends like I was like I would. I don't want to talk about this on my show, like people will think math and I have problems. Of course we had problems.

We were, it's called life, right? And the .

problem exactly always. But we we had such incredible conversations. And not that we have to get too much into IT, but the what I remember from the main problem that I was having was mat was ready to settle down with me and I wanted to, I really did.

But I was feeling like, so my my independence was being threatened. So if matt was ever like, hey, if you're going out with your gal friends, just give me attacks that you got home and in my mind, like you're being controlling. And so I was pulling away because I thought that his actual, genuine care of, like wanting to life together and like be respectful and communicate from previous relationships, I felt like that was controlling and positives. Yes, yes. And so we worked on a lot and couple therapy works like so alex, like if you're busy with work and you haven't talked to metal date, like could you just send them attacks because it's all coming from love?

He just wants to make sure shall I go to a dinner with a friend and I waiting for you to cook you a meal and i'm like, oh well, when you put IT that where I sound like an ask, but IT was IT was difficult for me to conceptualize a life where I brought someone else in and had to think of them because I think as a woman like my mom raised me as a very independent woman, I thought that partnering ing with a man meant I had to give up my independence. What i've realized his independence in that relationship now just looks like communicating yeah, and being respectful of the other person. And matt, now I can go do whatever I want. And matt, trust me. But we needed to build that first court trust in order to have dependence in the relations .

yeah and to kind of borrow what you're describing to what I was saying, it's like you have to if you're just gonna keep trying to explain, let's say to matt why it's bothersome to you is ask and you don't ever pause and say, wait, but how is he thinking about this? Forget about how I am perceiving and how is he perceiving IT? What is the meaning of this texter phone call to him? If you don't ever do that, then you, I mean, you're never going to resolve what could be a really simple issue if you just listen.

It's so true. And that's where I will say, when I SAT in couples there be with him all those weeks, we would believe that we would look at each other and be like, oh, my god. Like, i'm sorry.

Like, I can't believe that I I remember one session and I I was so adamant about, like, why does he need to like, know where I am at all times and he's like, I don't I think I need you to hear what i'm saying. I'm genuinely trying to be a respectful our relationship to know. Like, should I expect to see you tonight? Like, that's all.

And I eventually recognize also he was in a position where he was like, I know you're the one I also want to make sure like i'm not investing all my time and someone that I think for a while I was he was even questioning if I liked him at one point because I would pull away so hard when really was just, I was terrified. I'd never met someone incredible like that, that I was like, oh my god, I have to make some still independent because what if, what if IT doesn't out? And we were both just like yearning to connect, which I ve bet is what you see all the time where it's like different versions of IT.

But I think we did IT for like two months and then we ended up being like, okay, we we had this one big problem and we solved that. And then we were like, okay, I think we're good and now we're married. Wow, crazy.

wow. But IT was a big I know I probably the people listening, I know IT probably sounds like, oh, he just wanted to detect IT. IT was so much bigger than that, and i'm not shown justice, but I was like, this very big.

What is the thing? Like the pursuit and the withdrawal? Yeah, he was that yeah, he was like, alex and I was like, get away. But I was like, I love you and that he treated like shit.

I was, I know IT went on for a little bit there, and i'm so grateful that we had people in our life like I could email you and be like, we need someone yeah. And IT solved a lot of our problems. And I just want people to get more comfortable thinking about couple therapy a way that you're right if there's a friction in your relationship. IT is pretty simple to solve when you have the right tools in front of you and someone sitting there is a facilitated.

What's also interesting about like the way therapy works is that you don't have to solve every problem. You solve one problem like what you're describing here. And i'm sure IT has like many reverberations. You don't have to sit in therapy then to solve every other problem that comes up, you learn a certain kind of method that then generalizes.

You're right. Like, I remember one of the sessions, we had math and I were like, we were no, we were arguing about this because we couldn't figure out. And I remember he stopped us and choose like, we drunk and we like, oh yeah, oh, we you, we, we were and choose IT.

okay. And when to have you do this for the next two weeks, any time that you are both drinking the minute of conversation, you can start to like friction a little bit. We're done. Save this for the morning.

That is now a rule that, that I have continued for the past three and a half years whenever we're drinking, if there's ever like a why why did you say that like that where no, see you in the morning, let stop. IT and IT has saved us so much of those headaches. Works like no one is thinking right when they are drunk and I have a comfort .

when you drunk. You like full of projections. It's when all the ghosts come out of the box. It's like, no.

you're not getting anywhere and you can't hear shit that they're saying, right? You're like a it's like not a point.

Can I just yes into up, please? I want to say. But I think one of the things that was like so incredible to me when we had that interview three years ago was your capacity to listen IT was really kind of extraordinary and I was like, you were so Young and i'm like, how wow, this is like you you have a lot of your questions in mind but then when i'm talking, you're truly listening like it's thank you you .

know yeah I appreciate that. I definitely think it's I have gotten Better over the years. I think it's something that I recognize that when people give that to me, IT makes me feel seen and I feel so much more connected with someone. And I I think it's definitely allowed me to have deeper relationships in my life because a lot of people like, oh, I can tell you actually genuinely give a ship what i'm talking about. And I think that's also why I love my .

job like but it's also I think IT also has to do with stood on his curiosity, yes, like getting out of yourself and like actually being curious about stuff that's outside of.

yes, someone asked me the other week they were like, why do you do this? And I was like, I love, I like, I love sitting across from you and next week that could be a rapper and like, yeah, I love learning about other people because I don't want to just feel so sheltered my little bubble like, let's talk about this this week like, yeah, people are fascinating. We all have different experiences.

Like it's it's incredible to come together and be like, I never thought that way, but I respect IT and even if you don't move forward and take someones like life lessons, like I will always think about IT of like, oh, that person thought that way and I have respect for that on the show you say and this is kind of what we're talking about, but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about. You talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment. How does one step back and see the bigger picture? Because it's .

difficult very I think I think the you know when when it's in the heat of the moment when when the iron is hot, I think it's a lot to ask of people to really know always what's going on and what might be feeling the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in their that says to one, says to oneself. I'm sure it's not only about this.

There must be other things going on for me that i'm not exactly aware of right now. I'm gonna if I need to if I feel like i'm getting too you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heared about something that shouldn't be and then you consider yourself maybe I should pause. Think about IT for a while and come back to the conversation, not in the heat of IT.

yeah. But just to maintain this kind of cornal of curiosity, I haven't unconscious. There might be other things going on here. There are signals that that you give yourself when you are like when you get too excited about something too upset, like there's a feeling that you get when something else is going on yet I .

love that in the show though, when you have those moments with someone because again, I think like sometimes in romantic relationships, there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain and like the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand when I watch people on the show, like one person doesn't want to give you up.

Then when you asked the brilliant question of, like can you pause for minute? What do you think this out? What else is this about for you? Like, what was your relationship with your mother? yeah. And then i've then the person goes down a spiral like, well, he never gave me attention, and I O was always fighting for attention for my mother and then always said in, because SHE have been finished .

the sentence she's like.

guess because SHE SHE never is looking at me in a way that I feel like i'm having to like ask her for attention, like it's all these inner dynamics that we .

had growing up. I know that when it's in the moment when you when you partner triggering you, lets say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to like step out and say, oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now because IT feels so real and so intense in the moment. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard for people to do.

Do you have any advice like how do we check in on ourselves in determine if we're picking a fight quite literally, just for the thrill of conflict like I think people do love conflict. Yes, give us some advice on like that.

You're saying that the thrills of conflict because I talk to people about that, people don't usually like to acknowledge that. I think what I would say is, first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing. Is the thrill of conflict, okay? And i'm gonna something even slightly provocative. Is nothing in bad with that?

okay?

I know like he was SHE.

I'm not .

like I don't think like the I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship. But I think sometimes people who need to have fights or or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship or I think that's okay. I mean, it's relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark picture perfect like sweetness thing, right?

It's it's a place where people live um and discharge on each other um and use each other in small ways between each other and recover. I think that's life and and I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way for living in the relationship, it's just like I often talk about the fact that I don't I don't use like I don't even use coasters on my furniture. I'm like furniture is to be used like like leave a stain and cut through the board and and it's like that's what it's here for.

And relationships are like that too. You want the relationship to be in a live place. I think what IT gets a problematic is if you're really hurting each other and if there's something too purna ious about IT or if like the thrill of injury is what takes over or of retaliation or injury, that's when i'm like I draw the line and like, no, that is not you're not there to like um abuse each other and not every fight is an abuse.

That's a really great point because I think when couples say, like oh, we had a fight, like most of the time you could also change IT to like we had an argument or like you had a disagreement yeah and I think when you're right, so like IT, IT can be healthy to have fights because you are working through something but there is a difference between a fight and then something that is like absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you know where it's just to push in her but I love what you said though um about how there should be conflict and these relationships like we're living in them.

I think we've watched growing up for decades and decades like historically when you think of romantic relationships there held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life like who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents, with their siblings, with their friends? Like of course, you're gona have conflict disagreements, growing pains with friends and family. Why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic .

relationship? Person you're the closest to right yeah that you have to like live with and wake up with and like load the dishwasher.

right right? And I think that's like IT.

It's it's helpful to talk about that to make people feel Better of like of course, no relationship is perfect, but when your primary dynamics were in the households you were growing up and of course families are going to fight now your new family that you're building, of course there's gna be problems, but it's how do we actually like address the problems? Is IT to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad? Or is IT like you're talking through a disagreement and like you're going to sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together?

I need to know, this is for all the study getting out there that are like to call us out, why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting?

嗯， okay, good question. How how would we frame IT? I mean, the more kind of classical psychologic way to you think about like why people get pulled towards like abusive and toxic relationships is that is some form of what we call in jargon, repetition, compulsion.

Okay, where something is unresolved, let's a past dynamic is unresolved past trauma or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and work through and you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved. Um whether it's to master IT to to come out of IT Better or because there's just this kind of compulsion to just repeat the same thing. So that's one reason people get stuck on on toxic relationships. But there are other ways to think about IT like toxic relationships, one of the things they do and toxic relationships. I mean, sometimes it's too wide to term.

I like I think maybe not I don't think we need to go as far as like it's abusive. It's just like this, very unhealthy like this person is constantly playing games constantly like is there a version of like little gas lighting? Like yeah fully gilding you know .

I mean yeah it's you know I often try to like when I talk to people about like they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them, sometimes it's. When a person feels on some level, damage are bad about themselves or. Shame about certain aspects of themselves. They at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves.

Interesting because as you were saying that I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college, I have been like super insecure when I was Younger and I would go for these men that like IT was like I was trying to get the the guy that was so unattainable and when I would get him, I was like playing the game back.

But there was a part of me that like enjoyed IT because IT felt like I was like validating to me, like you got him, like you did IT. And IT was almost like healing the wounds of me, feeling like no guy wanted me when I was Younger, and like I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team, IT was like, I was was going for, like in my brain.

Actually, des of like, I wanted get there to prove. IT was more prove to myself. I can. I never felt fulfill. I never felt happy, but I was like, I was replying, oh, if I was Younger, these things I wish I could have done and then I got there like, all this isn't fun, right? Like, I don't feel happy, I don't feel seen, but I was like an ego thing almost .

and you can and that is in a certain way you're trying to repair something yeah but sometimes it's I mean, you can in a way flip IT and you can see people who are not doing IT to repair. They're doing IT actually to just keep telling themselves I suck.

I suck and what you what is that mostly from time .

is a form I mean, think of IT is magic but it's it's like um it's a it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat um self eating when people do all sorts of neurotics things that are bad for them yeah for I mean that's why we have cyclone else I mean, yeah, there are many ways that people do things are bad for them.

Have you found through cycle analysis like any repeating pattern from childhood that would make someone constantly try to remind in themselves of how they're not worthy knockit? And me, yes. Can you share just a couple examples?

Well, the classic example, I M it's kind of an extreme example. But think of the classic pattern of people who've been, let's say, sexually abused as children. And then in teenage years, they're like they entered like a series of like abusive, promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit because that's the only way they can.

They know how to think of themselves. It's like an endless self punishing cycle. It's very I mean, it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who have had like early abuse that IT takes a deep work to move out of that pan. But that .

that's so helpful. Yeah I think because I think again, why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like I think a lot of people who maybe have not even .

begun to like experience .

therapy thought about IT or just wasn't a part of they're upbringing like that statement alone could would be crazy to people like, hold on. So someone that was abused is now gonna go and like .

and put themselves in harms way, right?

And they would really like White, what like? I think they just never have sexed the rest of their life, and they would be shut down. That's just not the case. But I think these type of conversations help explain to people like the intricacy of trauma and how IT unfolds in your adult life. I appreciate you sharing that because i'm sure I mean, one in every one, three women, like so many women listening to this, so may be sitting there like, oh my god orna yeah. I think I I think i'm doing .

that and how do you even .

begin to like you want just therapy and talking through IT?

I know the work of therapy and other ways that people deal with issues, but in in in analytical work what we do is we I mean this is like yes, different with each person, but um you basically the idea that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now with their more mature mind really tend to what happened to them, to the injuries to to what was missing. Try to imagine how things could get Better like you really try to tend to all the areas that were disavow and neglected over the years in heel.

And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people yeah like people with that type of trauma, any type of trauma. Hold on or not, i'm going to go back and relive IT. Are you crazy like I put IT away, I tuck IT away, right? But I think what people realize when they come out on the other side of IT as they're such power and resilience you feel within yourself, when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happen to you yeah define you yeah because IT does start to define you when you don't right address IT IT comes up in your romantic and your friendships and every part of your work life um and that's when he gets terrifying.

And people is so important for people to feel like they're not like you're saying, defined by bad things that happen to them in the past that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out .

of that yeah back to couples. How big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship? Funny.

I just saw something in the in the times today that I haven't read yet, but about like people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage. I think IT varies a lot. I think not only is sex like a you know that this kind of domain that could goes anywhere and people have like us all possible things in their mind and in their bodies and that can transpire between them.

Sex is like a huge terrain. But um the importance of sex and like what meaning people assigned to sex in their relationship varies a lot. I.

Think for some people having an ongoing connection through the body through sexuality is incredibly grounding um and without that they feel um unmoved and for other people it's not like their main. It's not where they live. It's not where the essence of their life is. I mean, for some people that might be like in the far out intellectual domain and in the body's kind of a sort of by product that they tag along, but they really live in their mind and they want to live there with their partner. IT really varies a lot between people .

because i've had conversations with friends and I have large spectrum as you would expect. Like I have one friend that's like my parents weren't a really affection IT. So I don't find myself like I don't like need sex.

I actually just like crave more conversation exactly where as there have other friends that are like, oh, I like the only way I know that we're like in a good place. It's like we've gone too long without tax and like what's wrong with us? Like are we disconnected? Yeah and I though i'm curious if you have a couple where one is on one side of the structure and one is on the other, that's tough, right?

definitely. It's tough. If if people come into the relationship on with very different let's love languages or inclinations, that is tough. What's interesting is that couples might start off not that different from each other.

I mean, one might be more physically affectionate or have like a stronger libido, or like find sexes like where they express themselves on the other, maybe a little less. Sometimes what happens, and that is a problem, is that people work out. Other tensions are difficulties through in that arena, and then they polarized.

So someone could, I mean, the bedroom is often where people sadly work out other agendas. So someone could be like mad at their partner for, I don't know, like not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever. And with hold six, it's easy for them to withhold six because that's not exactly their mode of Operating.

But for the other party, IT might feel like the worst kind of punishment and like the most threatening thing to do. And then and then you get into the dynamic of polarization. So they may not have started so different, but it's they're working out some other issue through in that domain. And that is a problem.

Well, that also a problem because the person that is not, let's say, as this is just i'm starting this other sexual that's not the actual return but if the person that's not a sexual, the relationship has the power, right? Because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship and the person that wants IT is then at times probably feeling like i'm such the pursuit constantly yeah I feel like i'm being rejected.

I feel like i'm not getting the love I want you where the other person is like all you care about is that because you just keep coming to me for IT, but then they're like, well, because you never come to me for IT and they're like because you're always wanting IT, then you like, how the hell do you like? How do you approach a conversation? I guess when you're in these dynamics with these couples to, like, bring them back to center.

there is no one size fits all. I mean, IT really with each couple, it's a different thing. But what I find happens a lot in couple therapy that you have to try to separate if people are trying to negotiate other issues in a way to pull IT out of the bedroom. Interesting if you've got issues that you're working on, if you're resented about other things, just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're like working IT out unless IT really is about the bedroom.

right? If you both have just complete different x drives, like how do you approach a conversation with your partner if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom? Like how do we because that's a tough conversation and can be .

awkward tough conversation. And I would actually probably start off by assuming i'm in a list of very verbal couple. I would actually not start with language, okay um a lot of sexual needs and differences, it's great to resolve. I mean, if you're going to try to work on IT to do IT in real time through the body like signal through the body through non verb ways, what you want, what you need, experiment with things.

And I guess that depends on the couple like what works for them, working IT out in real time or working IT out like when you're not in the middle of sexual encounter, when vulnerabilities are high, passion is high. It's a tRicky thing to use language in those moments. It's so tRicky because.

I mean, unless you're in deep therapy, like you gotto be very careful because you can completely shut down. And like I agreed to, not like gender IT, but like, let's say, IT is the woman coming to the man, like you can just make them feel so shut down where they're like how long you've been thinking about this you're to satisfy they're feeling a mascula ted or rolls reverse the man comes you and you're feeling like, oh my god, have you not been enjoying the sex every time we're having sex or are you thinking of like sex is a very, very vulnerable thing in a relationship and I think you I never thought about IT that way. You're right.

It's like if you can address IT first with your body, like, let's say the person is dissatisfied because ever are making this up like every time you're having sex with your partner, you're feeling like it's you're disconnected, like you're having physical sex but just feels physical. There is no connection. okay.

Well, instead of saying that like you're right or like maybe your when is the last time in the morning are you hugging and kissing before you actually for a work or no, you just kind of ships in the night new, of course, when you're having sex, of course IT doesn't feel intimate and special. Are you hugging? Are you touching?

Do you hold hands like you want more connection of intimacy when you're having sex? Put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship first before, like you're right. Like lead with that and then .

all do IT while your intimate, while you're having sex. I mean, there ways that people can increase that kind of intimacy while they're having sex, not through words, right?

Looking at each other missing while you're having sex, maybe you ever a kiss while you're having sex that could feel a little like isolated or you like this could be anyone. So I love that advice because I do feel a lot of people write to me just like I literally don't know how to tell my partner like i'm not happy. I think that's like a very non daunting way to go about IT. It's like first, just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship and you don't have to have this big like blow up conversation .

yeah why blow up at all? I mean, when we're talking about I mean, there's the other thing which is like frame things as request as opposed to as complaints. I mean, it's always a good piece of advice, which is like translate what's bothering you into a request, into an ask rather than a complaint. I mean, the outcome could be very different.

Can you give us an example like how would be bad to say if was .

a good way to say IT like you never kiss me versus let's kiss?

IT sounds so simple, but it's so not that simple. We are in the moment and he's like doing the dishes and you like, okay, here I go. Here I go.

Why don't you kiss me? Yeah, what we have actually never kiss me. I don't have the last time that you ve made out with you.

We're having a insects that need little like midd dish. What what happened? Watch happened. And me also like you also, I think something I would learn a therapy a lot and we did help theri was like something that you have been holding on to.

That's why it's so good and now hold on to things for too long and relative because then you've had eighteen conversations with yourself, right? And they have no idea even thinking this, right. So then when he comes out, I can feel like a war and the person is, what is happy.

Thought that life was great recently. Yeah, so you're right. It's like, hey, you know what I would love to make out when we're having sex? I was thinking about that like, I love making out with you. Why don't we do IT when when we have sex like making?

I wouldn't even say .

why don't I don't say why I don't. No, let's.

let's shall we? Yeah shall we to oppose to why don't weak?

But it's I love these conversations with you, honor. Because when we are going on our data day lives like IT is hard to remember all these things. And sometimes it's good to just have the slowdown conversations of like all of us are the way we are because of everything that's come before us with in our lives.

When you're standing across from your partner, IT is not just the day we met on our first day and forward. It's like nano life existed before this person and what happened to you? Um i'm curious like when we talk about past trauma, because I think this is something that's like a misconception. I think a lot of most people assume we're talking about extreme situations, which we can, of course, we can do to hold episode on extreme situations like abuse. But can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adult od?

Yeah, of course. I mean, first of all, there's you know what I mean is I think it's quite popular now um to talk about like attachment styles um but the very first patterns of related ess that we established with the people that take care of us, often parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our lives. They will set the kind of expectations we have, for example, a simple, very important thing, like if you need something and you make an ask to the world, will the world respond or not?

Like you're saying, if you asked your parents when you're Younger for help on something .

and before even ask for help, like your dipper was wet and you started crying, how long did they take for your parent to get there and change your diet? If you were college and you had like incredible stema eggs, was that even possible to help you with that? Sometimes it's really difficult to help colley babies and they start off the world with some idea that when i'm in distress, the world can always help me.

Oh my god, yeah. It's like, it's really like basic stuff of like what what to expect from like the world. Like do I have that like incredible trust that when i'm in distress, help will come? Those are really early things that get established and they're not always because of neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just like, again, I mean, you can be a colony, baby or you can have all sorts of ways that your system is this regulated and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby and then you start off with a pattern of I don't know what to call IT mistrust or some way that the Colin response is yeah not established well but I think it's important is .

just like highlight that for minute because I can imagine a lot of people listening or like, oh, I don't have trauma compared to my friend like my friend went this through this or was abuse when choose Younger did that and like, I don't have trauma. It's like everyone has something that we all are the way we are because of our upbringing.

And I think that when we instead of being like what myself is not as bad, take care of yourself and also recognize A K if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships, really, what do I keep doing this? Or when IT does kind of show at work too, like i'm always pulling away when someone's being nice to me. I can't take a compliment.

I can't like a simple as that. Where does that come from? And I think when we start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, IT leads us down this like little dark path. But it's exciting to know that there is an answer yeah and you can resolve IT. And the answer .

could be like really interesting actually to go down that path and try to figure out it's really it's .

really interesting is why I told you when I binge this show, that's my answer.

When I binge couple therapy, it's because why I love IT and I can sit and I can handle IT is like one because that's just how my mother raised to me like, let's talk for nineteen hours and then some but IT really comes down to like i'm fascine by the human experience of, like we all grow up and like what triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy or overly intimate and overly trusting or reserved or outward? Like very dramatic in moments, and people see dramatic. But really, what is IT is IT to cry for attention because you like.

yeah, it's interesting.

It's endless. Like, I love IT.

Question I think is very interesting is I actually had this from a fan, which is where should someone draw the line between being supportive of their partner versus taking on way too much of their partners trauma as their own?

I think that um the question itself is an important one. There is a difference between there is a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of meshed some biodiverse st in someone else, which is not actually an act of care. It's something else. It's I guess what in in the language is called kind of code dependency you know IT makes me think a little bit about um raising children. Doing everything for them is not always the best thing.

Figure out like what do they need for their own independence and development? When are you overdoing for your child because of your own issues? Like you know, when using your child to work through something versus seeing them for who they are and and when do they need a bit of support and when they need to step back and and let them do their own thing, I think that's kind of A A very good learning ground for this difference between like overdoing IT and doing IT right out of care. Um I think there are many reasons why people get co dependent that are not about care for the other person.

Share with me.

I mean, you can come like a million reasons why, like getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself. You're escaping like your own stuff, insecurities um all sorts of avoiding tactics. I think maybe what i'm trying to say is that it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I care for the well being of this person, or am I answering some need of mine here? Hard, hard to decipher that .

I was going to say as like, is IT is IT fucked up to say, like someone that has a secure attachment would probably never get themselves completely down a rabbit hole in that situation because they would like, hold on, love you so much. But like, you need help and I can get this you where maybe IT immediately turns on a light for someone of like, I needed, I wanted, they need me. And then IT becomes codependent.

Because, again, back to the beginning of this epsom, it's just feeling actually something within to take care of that person. And of course, they think they love them. They're trying. But IT also was like completely feeling their cut by being like, yeah, they need me and i'm here and i'm the caretaker and I didn't have that when I was Youngers to nominate take on that role. C, whatever IT is.

that's a really great way of describing IT, yes.

But do you think it's almost like in a way also to help someone with that question is like, is this too dramatically? It's almost like when if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem, you literally are cannot help that person to a certain extent. Of course, you can drive them to rehab, but they have to walk in the doors, they have to participate in the healing.

And you're not a professional to help the healing, right? So when someone has this trauma, you can be there and cry with them and hold them. But IT only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down and if anything, you could be prohibit in them from actually seeking real help because there's this like code dependency of like we're going to do this together. You you can do that together. I need you yeah .

or me or uh N A A situation or yeah.

more questions from our fans. What are some signs the relationship is moving to a fast you know.

a relationship has ideally I am saying this and I am immediately contradicting myself in my night. But okay, let me say the first thing. A relationship has typically like a developmental arc.

IT takes a lot of time to get to know. And another person, I was feel like with my patience, IT takes me two years to feel like I know this person really? yeah.

yes. I want to how my therapy .

feels about me. How have you ve been seeing them over two years? I feel like there's a moment in which suddenly it's like, oh, all the pieces are coming together now I get this person IT takes a long time to get to know a person um and I think the idea like moving too fast is when you assume you know more than you do when you think you've got IT you you understood everything about them.

You get that they understood you in a way you're. Blocking all the areas that create the discomfort of realizing, I don't know that person, that person doesn't know me, which is scary. It's uncomfortable.

It's scary. I think people sometimes have an inclination to to want to avoid that in rush so that they don't sit through the discomfort of like others. And in unfamiliarity and awkward dance, which is part of getting to know a person, there's gonna a lot of awkward dance.

So much awkward dance. Yeah and I like that you're saying that because I have had women right in being like alex officially thirty and like you're so Young, enjoy and it's like, no, no, no, i've got to find a husband and i'm always so worried because it's like, listen, I think there's moments also where we completely project our ones under someone and IT could be literally sitting a dinner with you being like, yes, so I have this trauma you like, oh my god, you know, we should go this weekend.

We should go to cancer and they're little like you're just putting on them what exactly I want a husband. You look great you played the part. And it's like we sometimes just approach a relationship based off of what we want from IT and need from IT. Yeah and we completely neglect fact that the person across from me this is like, I stranger yes, a complete stranger yeah and it's like this honeymoon phase. I think the honey moon phase can be so to multis in the long run if you along gated for too long and the honeymoon faces on you to decide when IT the bubble pops and you're like so you want .

actually who are you yeah little .

tell me about your childhood. Like what what are you insecure about? Like what is something that has been like one of the biggest hardships in your life? Like, yeah.

it's daunting.

But again, like you can hear an answer from someone to be like, oh, I don't want to be with you because of the way you're telling me you handle that with this is, oh, my I couldn't relate that at all. But some of times people go sometimes people I mean, you probably seen that. How long have you seen people go in a relationship where you can sit down with them and they are married for, like thirty years?

You know, like, do guys know each other? I know, I know what. How does that happens?

Actually shocking to me.

It's shocking to me.

That's possible, possible. I mean, it's like people who like their spouse as I want to get divorced and i'll ask them like somebody can show up for therapy and say my my spouse wants divorced me and i'm like what what have they what have they been saying to you over the years that will help us understand in there? Like I don't know what is that. That is self absorption.

right? Because it's like how could you been a relationship for that long and be completely blind sided, right? Yeah I think that's where we decide as humans when we want to block things off or we want to let IT then, right?

Because I empathy like it's terrifying yeah, sometimes I don't want to load my whole life. I like this little bubble. Life created right? Thought is terrifying for something to big.

I don't know why we're getting into box. Yes, yes, you do. You like sit on my couch for five, four hours, i'll get to .

the yeah and and often what happens in therapy is the person who supposedly didn't know had a whole other part of themselves that did know, and that part is associated. Is that really interesting?

How long does he usually take in therapy to come out a while, really a while? I and I think as a wrapping up, oh my god, don't like a therapies as a wrapping up. You like sobs. I have done that with my third sometimes. And we're rapping up about like, I like you.

I appreciate you walking us through that at the end there because I feel like the whole thesis of this episode is like truly trying to dive underneath all these decisions that we are taking on our day to day just at face value. Oh, he treated like, oh, he did this. Oh, why? There's always an answer.

Sometimes we don't want to know IT, but I can give you a lot of peace when you do get underneath and you know IT, thank you so much. This relationship that we have makes me so happy. Oh, he does. Okay, I really like you like email and you like hi or not no.

I had like a deep, great fun ness for you.

Yeah, don't make me cry. No, I really appreciate you and everything you do. And I think that this show is truly revolutionary. We don't get to see therapy working from a start to finish moment and obviously know what's not finished, ed, but we don't get to see the like breaking down of humans and like watching these inner dynamics come from beginning to wherever their left, with us breaking up for saying together. And so I think what you guys are doing is amazing and i'm addicted, so i'll be watching and thank you.