JRE MMA Show #160 with Francis Ngannou
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All right, we're up. What's up, man? Good to see you. You have had a lot of experiences since the last time I saw you. A lot of things happened. That's why I'm always about writing my book and chapter, keep adding up, adding up, adding up.

Yes, every time you feel like you're just maybe in the beginning or in the middle. Yeah, I don't think so. You're definitely only in the middle. Yeah, in the middle. Somewhere, I mean, it's not the beginning, but it's a lot of experiences. So tell me about leading up to the Tyson Fury fight. Oh, the Tyson Fury fight, that was great. You know, I was just there living a dream.

You know, get this big moment, get that fight that I've been waiting for four years. The fight that everybody said you were never going to get. Yes. Which is crazy. Like, thank God for the Saudis. Because they are making things happen, which is really incredible. Incredible. And it's not like, who is this? Who is that? You know, it's like, okay.

We want it to happen, then make it happen. Yeah, because everybody wanted to see it happen, but it was one of those things where everybody dismissed it. Everybody said, that's not going to happen. Tyson Fury's the heavyweight champion. Why would he fight a guy who doesn't have any professional boxing matches? That's crazy. That's not going to happen. And it happened. And then everybody said, you didn't stand a chance. And then when you knocked him down in the second round, everybody was like, holy shit. And when you were dancing over him when he went down. Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, I think a lot of people do mistake something, you know. And I always tell people, like, not because you're a fighter that you walk in the ball and there's this guy coming to you, maybe this fat guy coming to you, and then you stand there and because you're a fighter, don't think like he's a threat. Everybody could be a threat. You better step, take two steps back and then, like, see your distance and get ready to defend yourself. You know, you don't...

If everybody hits you, anybody hits you, you're going to get hurt. Right. True. So, yes, I might not have been doing boxing. I'm not a boxer, but still, I'm a fighter. And even if I wasn't a fighter, you know,

I can hurt and I can harm somebody. You're a big motherfucker. I'm a big guy. So I was watching it and people was like, no, he stand no chance. He has zero chance. I'm like, there is not a fight on earth that zero chance. That element of zero chance doesn't exist. I mean, if you look at it, I'm a man guy. And then two men together, someone might have more techniques, might know the sport. But even if I never been in the gym,

you still better watch out i still have a chance maybe not as much maybe not equal chance but i still do have a chance but you can't dismiss someone like you and drop their drop your guard and no and think that you don't have any chance you shouldn't dismiss anybody

You know, we used to be in the, I have seen fight that people show up and then they pretend like, oh, they're going to fight. They have stone in their hand. And if you dismiss them because you think like, oh, he's a small guy, he hits you with the stone in his hand. Right, right, right, right. Well, by the time you find out that he has stone in the hand, you're in the ground. Right, exactly. But it was very clear to me that you had some interesting strategies.

when you went into that fight. First of all, you were fighting a lot of it in southpaw. Why did you decide to do that? Was that something that you guys had devised before the fight? You thought it would be an interesting strategy? Or is that just like the way you like to box? I like to box like that, but I also thought it was a strategy. That it would be a good strategy as well. Because, like...

Basically on the Tyson Fury fight, I think the Southpaw was a big component in that fight because every time that I realized that every time that I switched to Southpaw, he was thinking. But when I switched back to orthodox, he was pressing. So when I wanted to take a break, I switched to Southpaw a little bit.

What was it like to, I mean, there's obviously you've had many MMA fights, you've been very successful UFC heavyweight champion as an MMA fighter, but what was the difference in the feel of like going into a professional boxing fight with a guy like Tyson Fury, who is the heavyweight champion of the world and one of the greatest of all time? He's absolutely one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever. Yeah.

But he was completely different. You know, the environment is different. The organization is different. It's different to be a step in the ring for the first time. Okay, you have all this spotlight on you, but you're in the ring. It feels different. Sometimes you're in the cage. You're used to the cage. You lean on that cage. You have that feeling. You grab the cage. Also, your shoes are...

Yes. And then in the cage, you know that you can do more. You can wrestle. You can do this. And you're comfortable with that. But you're in the ring for the very first time somewhere that you've never been. It feels different. And then you're thinking like, oh, man, how am I going to do? Am I going to be able to do three rounds? Am I going to be able to do four rounds? I don't know. I can find out just now.

There's not a way back. That's crazy. You're going to find out. So by every round, you have to think about like, okay, how am I doing? This is the first round, then second round. Okay, so this is the fifth round. I'm not too bad, so I think I'm going to get there. You know, just go like that round after round. So you're concerned about endurance. Yes, very concerned about endurance. It was 10 rounds, and I didn't know how I'm going to be feeling after the third round. Okay.

You turned it on the eighth round. And the eighth round, you hit him with some big shots. Yeah. That was one of your best rounds. Yeah, the eighth round was pretty good. Then I get a little, then I pull my feet off the gas on the ninth round. And then the 10 rounds, I'm like, you know, like, oh, I feel good. This is the last round, right? I feel good. That's when I start to do like the Superman punch or the stuff like

For me, he was already a win. He shocked the world, that's for sure. Did you have any

um, mock fights in the gym? Like, did you bring in any professional boxers and have, like, try to go eight, ten rounds in the gym? Sparring. Yeah. But, like, with no headgear, like, smaller gloves. Did you do anything, like, that replicated an actual professional boxing match? No. No. Uh, we just do, like, a normal sparring. Uh, have a different sparring partner sometimes who push me. But, um,

We didn't do anything like that. You know, as an MMA fighter, we used to spar without gloves, without headgear and stuff. But you get into boxing, everything is so strict, so specific. And then you get to the point that you kind of like ask yourself, like, why taking a chance to hurt now and get pulled up of the fight? Right. I'm just going to train. I train the best that I could, that I can. Then I will get there, see, figure out what's happened.

And so from the time the negotiations started to the time of the fight, how much time did you have to prepare for this? For the negotiation? No. So you had the negotiations and then once it was signed, how much time did you have to prepare for the actual fight itself? And were you preparing already, hoping you were going to have a boxing match?

Yeah, but it's different to think that, oh, I might have a boxing match. I want to have a boxing match than when you have a boxing match and knowing who you are going to fight is something different. You know, you prepare, the real preparation starts now. And between the moment that we signed the fight to the fight itself, it was over three months already.

Because I know that it wasn't my field. And I didn't have any... And it's not like I was in the gym training, boxing every day. So it was basically four months. That's crazy. Yeah, I took it a moment for a pre-camp. I came back here...

because I was in Cameroon at time. Then I came back here, my team and I, we work on like everything, start like a pre-camp, you know, just train to get in shape, start like sparring. And then we started, we started the sparring with three rounds. Wow. The first sparring was like three rounds, move around, see. Then we started to go work

Round after round, you know. What I thought when I saw the fight is imagine if you had just gone into professional boxing like 10 years ago, how well you would do. If you, no MMA, no kicking, no wrestling, just professional boxing.

For you to do that well against a guy like Tyson Fury, who's that good? I don't really know. And those are the stuff that I don't usually think about. I think life sometimes just has a path for you. You follow the path, the destiny that life has for you, and you just be grateful. Because regardless of the fact that I didn't start training,

10 years earlier. I didn't have that opportunity 10 years earlier. Meanwhile, I had to discover MMA and have a great journey in MMA, have a great experience in MMA, you know. So it's something that I will not regret that. I will not beat that up over an opportunity of starting boxing early. Things just happen at

I took my chance. I do what I can do. It's all about figuring out how far I can go, what I can possibly do. So I'm not an 18 years, 20 years old guy that is dreaming to have a career into this. But I still want to know what I can possibly do at this point of my life. Yeah. Yeah.

What was the experience like when it was all over? Like, what did it feel like when you just went 10 rounds and a lot of people, including myself, thought you won? Yeah. Oh, I feel very great. You know, like, regardless of the result, for me, knowing what I was going through, what was in my mind, like, what's going to happen into this fight? First round, second round, then I get in the 10th round.

Good. And I feel like I wasn't doing bad. So for me, that was a win. That was a satisfaction. The result was other part of it which didn't matter most. But I knew already that if ever we get, because I couldn't guarantee that we would get in the 10th round, but if ever we get there,

I wasn't expecting to win. When you dropped him... Definitely not. When you dropped him in the second round, I jumped off the couch. I jumped in the air. I will say something. You know, like, I won this from the moment that they accepted the fight, that they signed the fight. Because I think I was very underestimated. You know, they didn't know that I could have done something. If they had known that...

beforehand, maybe this fight would have never happened. Because they would have seen a risk and they wouldn't want to take that risk. So this was basically like less risk, zero risk. And it probably would have been different too because there was no footage to prepare for you, right? Like the only footage that he could prepare was watching you fight in MMA. Yes, he was... There it is. Why are you dancing in front of him?

When we started a fight, when the referee said, okay, you guys go to your corner, he said, let me take you to school. So that was, the dancing was like, I think you're a bad professor. You're a bad teacher. That was the only reason why I did that. He's a funny guy, man. He's funny. He's very entertaining. Oh, he's so entertaining. He's so entertaining. He's just a show guy. Yeah. That's happened to really like...

Being very talented. Yeah boxing good at it, but he's an entertainer I mean, he's the way sells it I mean even the way like was playing with his fat like standing next to you like rubbing his belly like sometime he will Insult you I don't know if he's insulting you or if he's making fun But it's just funny that you have to laugh you really have Yeah, he kept talking about how big your dick must be

He's a funny dude, man. He's a funny dude. He said that since the first time we met. And he will put some stuff up sometime that I'm like, what? And I really have a hard time understanding what he's saying. Oh, I do. So I struggle a lot. And English is my first language. And I have to translate to tell me what he said. His English is hard to understand. The Gypsy King, he's quite a character.

Did you hang out with him at all after the fight? No, we didn't hang out. But I think we both respect each other. And I think he always... I mean, he was entertaining, but he always showed respect. He...

And I know that he respected me, even from the beginning. You know, it's not like this was after the fight. Even from the beginning, he could have said everything that he would say to make his show, to laugh, make people laugh, you know. But he's very respectful. That's cool. Yeah. Was there any talk after the fight about a rematch? Yes. There was even a rematch close. How do you call it? Like...

First regard of rematch close. There was something in the contract about the rematch close. Was that if you beat him? Was if I get in the eighth round. Really? Yeah. Wow. So the deal of the rematch was if I get in the eighth round. So why didn't the rematch materialize? I think it's the timing. I think it's a matter of the timing. So...

So you go from that fight to the Anthony Joshua fight. Yes. So tell me about the preparation and leading up to that fight.

In fact, the preparation for the Anthony Joshua fight, then I started, you know, after having like four months of training camp for the Tyson Fury fight, I had this feeling, you know, and then I get a little confident now. I know how it works, like 10 rounds, and then it was pretty good. You know, the Tyson Fury fight, I think I sparred like 10 rounds for like,

Two weeks. Yeah, like four sparring of ten rounds, barely. But the Anthony Joshua fight, six weeks before the fight, I was, no, I wasn't ten. No, the Tyson fight, yeah, four weeks before the fight, I was already doing like ten rounds. And I was feeling good, you know, even a little lighter. But things play out different.

And I think, unlike the Tyson-Sherry fight, that nobody expected me to do anything. Here, they were expecting me to do something. So things played out a little different. And then we get in the fight week. And then every time that we're going to do something in the fight week, whether it's media, they're going to pick me up. And then I get there, have to wait like one hour and a half,

before he arrives. And there was like maybe the third day of the week that Dewey, Dewey Cooper, he said, oh, he started to get really mad, upset about it. Like, yes, this is how they do to get fighter tired. But at the time, I didn't know what was going on, you know. So I'm like, no, come relax, Dewey. It's okay. You know, I didn't know until we get to the fight day.

Friday, receive an email, pick up time. I mean, this one thing among others. Pick up time, 10.30 from the hotel. And then when they say 10.30 by 10.20, there is a car in your door waiting. We go to the supposedly 5 time, between midnight to 1 a.m. We get to the arena, 10.45. There is a producer waiting.

Come into the locker room. Say, oh, guy, we are running late on the broadcast. Now we are we we're going to go around one forty five each. I'm like, OK, one forty five is ten forty five. Three hours. OK. You know. So what do you do? Do you eat? Do you sleep? What do you do when you know you have three more hours? You know, just stay there and then you have like a drug test guy.

around waiting for you to pee. How far before the fight do you eat? Usually maybe like four, five hours. Yeah, like maybe five to six hours and then you get some snacks in between, you know. And then, yeah, it was around 1.30 that he was, Anthony Joshua arrived. I saw on screen, I'm like,

So we're supposed to fight at 1:45. He's arriving at 1:30. What does that mean? It's going to so... So they're playing games? Until we fight at 1:00, at 3:30. Oh wow. I've been in Saudi for almost two months training to fight between midnight and 1:00. That was my training time.

By two, three. So they wanted to keep you anxious, drag it on, psychologically put it in your head. You don't know when you're going to fight. Pretty much. Yeah. But even at that time, I didn't know what was happening. Right. It was after everything that I'm like, what's going on? Because I get to the point that I was so tired. I was in the locker room, eating meat, then sit down.

Feeling asleep. Then I tell Eric. Eric Nixick. Like, bro, something wrong. I'm asleep. I feel like I want to sleep. Like, I'm sweating. But we just keep doing. So, that's fight. I mean, not to say Anthony Joshua couldn't win me. You know, I think if there's somebody that you...

you can loss against him he he's he's the guy you know and uh he's one of the best of doing it you know but and this is definitely not on him because he wasn't the guy that was sending all those email was organizing so i'm not blaming about anything but the organization bro they did

quite some stuff that wasn't fair. Wish on the Tyson fight was perfect. Everything was perfect because I wasn't a threat. I wasn't, nobody cares about me. Everything was organized. We get there in the locker room. I think it was two hours before the fight. Probably. Yeah. So then I'm like,

Well, Anthony Joshua is a veteran. He's been in the boxing game for a long time. For sure. He knows all the different tricks. They also obviously very much prepared for your style. They saw you fight Tyson Fury, so they had tape on you. As Tyson Fury did not have boxing tape. He didn't have any footage to study. But Anthony Joshua did.

And it was very clear that he knew you had certain tendencies and there were certain things that you did with the Tyson Fury fight that he exploited in his fight. Maybe. And then I think, again, I think he's capable to figure out everybody. I think he's capable to win everybody. But in this case, I feel like in some ways they stand on my way a little bit.

They stood in your way. Yeah. So they played some games. Yeah. Well, they wanted to get the most advantage possible, you know, which is that's, you know, smart. If you're their coach, their manager, that's what I would do too. But it wasn't their coach that was organizing the fight. So you think it's the organization itself that they set everything up in his favor? The organization. I mean, yes, his team was part of organization because it was Greensbury and Mushroom.

Those emails was coming from there. So those are the people that told you to get there three hours earlier than you needed to be. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the people that were sending the schedule, the five-week schedule. And every day we send everything, like pickup time, the program, and the schedule. Have you had a chance to go back and watch the Anthony Joshua fight? Yeah. I mean, I didn't. Yes, I watched it.

What was your question? What do you remember about the fight? What was different watching it? Oh, even like feeling it. It wasn't, even before I went to watch it, I get in the ring, wasn't feeling myself. And the first round, when he knocked me down, like I fell and I was like, did I slip?

Like what exactly knocked me down, make me fall like this punch because I felt the punch but it wasn't the punch that would knock me down. You know, so that's when I really get confused at that time. I'm like damn, what? But this is the thing. From that moment, I get knocked down with a punch that

It wasn't that hard. You don't think it was that hard? No. He hit my hand before he hit my face. And I felt it. I felt the punch, but I wasn't on the floor. The first one. And then I get counted, then stood up. We finished the round. I went on my corner. But by the time I went on my corner, I never came back.

From that, I keep going. And I remember being in my corner and Dewey was like, don't go on Southpaw. He's waiting you on Southpaw. Do this champ. Do this champ. That was it. That's from there. I don't remember when I left the stool to get in the second round. Well, that was probably from the big punch in the second round too, right?

Yeah, but I'm talking about the first round. Right, but the memory afterwards is always going to be cloudy after a knockout, especially a bad knockout like that. Yeah, but I remember exactly what happened until we get to the store. I remember being there, like, having blurry vision. Like, the guy was in front of me. My team was in front of me, speaking to me. And then the voice was...

Getting distance. So you think there was something wrong? I don't know if it was the fatigue. I don't know what was it, but something wasn't right. So something wasn't right on, forget about the punches he landed. Something else was wrong. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

Something was wrong. Do you think it's something you ate? Do you think it was something that someone gave you? I have no proof. I don't know if maybe... Did you get tested after the fight? Maybe it's the fact that I get there at that time. So just the fatigue and the anxiety and all the hours and hours. I don't know if it's the fatigue. Right. Yeah, but something wrong. I wanted to get... First of all, when all those things happen...

You are in the moment. You don't think like you don't get out of the fight and think about like go get tested. You know, you process thing and then see to understand, to see how he was wrong. But by the time they say, I think I need, we have to do like within 12 hours to do like blood or urine 12 and 14 and 24 hours. That was it. So I didn't do that.

I can't say it was that. I don't know. But it felt like something was wrong. It wasn't me, yeah. So did it feel like something was wrong, like just plain fatigue? Or did it feel like something was wrong, like maybe you were poisoned or maybe you were drugged? Plain fatigue. Fatigue. Yeah. So just fatigue. Yeah, on the fatigue aspect.

Yeah. Well, this is also an aspect of experience, right? Because this is only your second professional boxing fight. And there's things that people do. They do very intelligent things. Like Gervonta Davis, when he fought Ryan Garcia, he made him dehydrate, get down to a low weight. And then there was a clause in the contract where he couldn't gain more than 10 pounds before the fight itself. So he went into the fight dehydrated.

Smart for a guy like Gervonta, who's a huge puncher. So there's things that experienced professionals that have been in the game a long time will get a fighter to agree to that's not in their best interest. And then there's things that they can do to you, like make you wait all day and make you wait around, which will fatigue you. Yeah. But there wasn't a thing or something in the contract that was forcing me to do something.

The only thing was to show up on time. Right. So that was everything. Because before all that, the week before, sparring, everything feels good. I spar way more better, way more stronger than what I did on the Fury fight. Even my sparring partner was different at that time. On the Fury fight, we were getting somebody in maybe after the...

six or eight rounds just to weigh me down but the quality of a boxing wasn't that impressive right here it was different and I was able to hold I know that if I had to fall he would take a little more to get me down

Well, Anthony Joshua's a big puncher. He's a big puncher. And he's fast. He's fast, and he's a one-punch knockout puncher, as opposed to Tyson Fury can knock guys out with one punch, but really he wears guys out. He beats guys up and then takes them out later. Like the Deontay Wilder fight, like he beats them up and then he takes them out. Mm-hmm.

You know, whereas Joshua can take people out with one shot. He's a much bigger, physically much more powerful guy. No, I agree with that. And I knew that. This episode is brought to you by Kitanica. Looking for indestructible outdoor gear that can handle anything you can throw at it? Look no further than Kitanica. Sold factory direct at Kitanica.com. They handcraft the toughest jackets, pants, shorts, flipflops,

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visit simplisafe.com slash rogan. But this offer is available for a limited time only. So be sure to order today. That's simplisafe.com slash rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. I knew that. What would you do differently if you could do the Anthony Joshua fight again? That's the problem. We did everything right. Everything right in preparation? In preparation. We did everything right. You know, sometimes...

You know, like when, for example, I fought Stipe. I went back and I could have made a whole list of what I did wrong, what I could have done better. And that's why, like, even after that fight, my next fight, again, the regular weeks were so bad because I was still working on the list of what I have done wrong. But here...

We were very disciplined. We did everything and everybody was professional. You can't say this person did this wrong. This should have been like this. This should have been like that.

It's so different, too, because you're going from no professional boxing fights to two of the very best, not just in the world, but two of the very best ever. Anthony Joshua, Olympic gold medalist, elite fighter, incredible athlete. I mean, he's so good. So did you think, like, at all about having fights with maybe some guys that were below that level to get more experience? Yeah.

Like after the Tyson Fury fight, maybe fighting a guy who's like ranked 15th or 16th, you know. I never thought about that, you know. You just went for the money. And the money in the big fight. The big fight is obviously. Yes, won the big fight. So like, for example.

After the Tyson Fury fight, if I go for another guy, top 15, like, what's the goal here? I mean, again, I'm not 20 years old. I'm not 25 that I have a plan to grow up the ranking and get to the championship. I want to fight.

Yeah, get the money and get the big fight out of the big fight. So that was the goal. Yeah, well, you achieved that goal. Because, like, first of all, going to the Tyson Fury fight,

You didn't know if there was a plan after that, if there was another fight after that. And then after the Tyson Fury fight, the next fight that you have a call for was an Anthony Joshua fight. Were you trying to get a different fight after the Tyson Fury fight? Like after the Tyson Fury fight, were you trying to get a rematch or were you just willing to take whatever they are offering you? The rematch was there.

We know we had the rematch, but he was going to fight Yusik first. It's a thing that's supposed to happen in December, and he couldn't. Right, he got cut. Yeah, he couldn't fight in December. So I wasn't really on something. I was just there, and then I get the offer of Anthony Joshua. Then I'm like, let's go. So where do you stand now? What are you planning on doing now? What do I plan on doing now?

I think I still have a couple in me. Boxing fights? Yeah, a couple boxing fights. Yeah, basically boxing fights. I have a couple MMA fights. And I think I'm going to fight MMA fights by the end of the year.

with PFR. I'm going to fight, might have to fight in Saudi again. Really? Yeah. Well, one of the things that has been discussed that apparently the UFC might be open to because the Saudis throw around so much money is the potential of a

A joint promotion. A cross promotion with you versus Jon Jones. Make it happen. That is what the world wants to see. Because when you have a guy like yourself that knocks out Stipe, becomes the undisputed UFC heavyweight champion, and then through negotiation only decides to relinquish the belt. Everybody, even though Jon Jones is the champion now, everybody's like, yeah, but you didn't win the title against the champion. Yeah.

And you were the most compelling fight in the heavyweight division, for sure, for Jon Jones. That's what I wish. But, you know, in these days, this takes a lot more than what I want or what I wish to happen. There's a lot going on. Yeah, there's a lot going on. So tell me, what is the status of your deal with the PFL now? So how does that work? It's working pretty good. We have a good relationship. I have some fights going on.

Again, I will be fighting by the end of the year. Do you know who you're fighting? I think Renan Ferreira is the guy. Yeah.

That's the guy that knocked out Ryan Bader. Yeah. He's dangerous. He's legit. I've been telling people about this guy for, what, almost two years. He's a big dude, too. I say watch this guy. Yeah. But very athletic. Very athletic, fast. Fast hand, one-two, knee stuff, like very athletic. Yeah. So I think it's going to be him. And you think that fight will be in Saudi Arabia as well?

Yeah, that's what the PFA is working on. Interesting. Do you know when that will take place? October. October. Yeah, they're working on October. It's not finalized yet, but they were talking about October 19. Isn't that around the same time the UFC has that big Abu Dhabi card? Don't they have a big Abu... Can you go to the UFC's website and see what their Abu Dhabi card is? I believe...

I want to say somewhere around the end of October, there's a big UFC card in Abu Dhabi. 25th? My mic's off. Oh, no. October 25th. So October 25th. Yeah. Yeah. So one week after. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if the UFC has that card finalized. Do they have that card finalized? They always put on a big fight when they go to Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi's always a big card. A lot of top-level fighters on that card. Hmm.

Even this Riyadh one is going to be a big card. No, I'm sure. If we make it happen, they're going to stack that card. Do you know who else would be on that card with you? Again, it's not finalized yet, but I think Cedrine Dombé would be on that card. Dombé, I love that dude. Yeah. I love that dude.

I've had him on the podcast before. He's an entertainer too. He's a comedian. He's a comedian. He's crazy. He's funny. He's very funny, but God damn, he can fight. No, he can fight. How crazy was that fight? He can back up whatever he says. Oh, yeah. He's an elite kickboxer. Elite kickboxer. He trained at my gym in LA. When I had my gym in LA, his trainer came when he did my podcast and he had a workout session. And man, his workout sessions are crazy. He's crazy.

It's so cardio intensive. They're doing like sprints on the treadmill and they run to the heavy bag, sprints on the heavy bag, run back to the treadmill. I was like, dude.

Damn. Like watching that, I was like, no wonder why this guy has a crazy gas tank. Well, he was a champion at Glory for a long time. Not just a champion. That wasn't a mistake. He was knocking everybody out. Not just knocking everybody out, but the way he did it, like he melted guys. He put pressure on them. Knockout power, but intelligence.

And just great technique. But the cardio was crazy. And I remember thinking, like, this dude doesn't get tired. And then watching him train, I'm like, oh, well, there it is. I mean, he's not just doing, like, normal mitt work. Like, I've seen other guys work out where they do mitt work. They do their things. Like, his stuff is cardio intensive, man. He wants to have a full gas tank when he gets in there. Yeah, he knows what he's looking.

How crazy was that fight where they called the fight because he stepped on a piece of glass inside the cage? I don't know, man. And I don't even know what that referee was doing. All they had to do was pull it out of his toe. Yeah. He's like, hey, I stepped on something. I stepped on something in my toe. And the referee was like, fight's off. Yeah, I think you stop the fight and you even check the canvas if there's no more piece of glass.

That should be overturned. Because that was dangerous. It is dangerous. But that should be a no contest. There's no way that should count as a loss. That was a no contest fight. No contest at all. No chance. How the fuck does another guy get a win? He's not complaining about like a high puck or something that didn't happen. Nothing. A piece of a glass. And he's pointing to his toe and he's saying, just let me get it out of my toe. Yeah.

Let me get this out of my toe. It shouldn't be there. And you know, things happen. Who knows how it even got in there? Who knows what happened? The odds, just some random freak accident. He steps on something that nobody, you know what? It could have been stuck to someone's shoe and someone's walking around the cage with that stuck in their shoe and it falls out of their shoe and it sticks in his toe. He stands on it. He gets in his toe and he just points down. They say, stop the fight.

Yeah. He's like, I lost? He pointed out twice. See if you can find that, Jamie. The second time? I was reading someone's explanation of what Mark Goddard did, and they said he did what you're supposed to do. A fighter can't ask for a timeout.

No, no, that's wrong. It wasn't a timeout, though. There's a foreign object inside the cage. Yeah, a foreign object. That falls under to the timidity sections of the referee's guidelines. No, no. Timidity? This is just someone's explanation. Did they say timidity? That's what this says. Oh, that's ridiculous. Oh, that's ridiculous. I'll find out.

See if you can find the footage, though, because the footage is so obvious there's something wrong. The referee should just say time, ask him what he's saying. It wasn't like he was in trouble and he was looking for a timeout. Yeah. He was dead in the 50-50 position. Yes, yes, yes. Break the fight. It's not like nobody is losing position. Exactly. So here it is. He's standing there. Yeah. It's not like nobody is losing position from that.

It's not like he take a punch. I want to recover from that. Fucking crazy.

Yes, no. I just don't understand that at all. I mean, I haven't talked to Mark about it. That wasn't a good decision. I don't understand. I mean, maybe he's hindered by the rules. Maybe that's just what the rules state you have to do. When a fighter says you have to stop something for a second, I don't know what the rules are in terms of that. I've never seen that happen before. I've never seen someone step on something inside the octagon and then point down to their foot. I've never seen it. So I don't.

But, man, what a shame. But he came after that, and he won. He won his next fight. He's going to fuck up a lot of people, man. I was bummed out that he went to the PFL. I wanted that guy in the UFC. He can fuck up a lot of people. And, you know, he's got a lot of years on the clock, too. He said he wanted to go to the UFC, and then they gave him some sort of contract, and then I'm like, no, bro. They gave him a bad contract? Yeah. That's unfortunate. He said that on the tweet, right? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know. That doesn't make any sense. Well, that's crazy. That guy could be a superstar. He could be a superstar. He's so fun. Yeah. He's a superstar. The guy filled up the Basie Arena in Paris. Yes. In France, he's a superstar. Yeah. I mean, and that could translate 100% to the United States and to the rest of the world. I mean, he's that good. He's that good. Yeah. He's one of the best in the world. And the fact that he's over there, just like...

Well, great for the PFL. Great for the PFL, you know, but for the UFC, like, that's a big loss. Like, anytime you can get an elite kickboxer, and he did a lot of training. He did a lot of training in wrestling, went to AKA, trained there. He's really worked on his takedown defense. He wants something. Yeah. He definitely wants something, and he's working on it. And the guy has serious discipline and work ethic, and he's just smart, man.

And the way he fights, he's just like, he sets guys up. He talks so much shit before the fight too. He's fun. Did you watch his first fight at the PFR? Yeah. The guy brought a mattress. Like, what the fuck is this? So Jordan...

go to sleep and he put the guy to sleep in few seconds. Well, the difference between his level of striking and most guys in that division level of striking is like this. Yeah, there's a huge gap. A giant gap. The other guy was just trying to compensate with their wrestling or jujitsu or something. Exactly.

And even if you don't have a better wrestling than him at least you grab him you avoid some punch Yes, and the thing about him is and every fight starts standing up It's one thing if you're a really good wrestler you have to take the guy to the ground Yeah, but the fight starts standing, you know with Cedric the fight starts in his best place and then you see how he was fighting his second fight and

he was very low he went very low like oh yeah you're a wrestler yeah let's see how you're gonna yeah get that level change yeah like i'm already down here so getting very he's very intelligent very intelligent and again his level of striking and we see that with like guys like alex perreira right like that level of striking when you're a glory champion the level of striking is so high

It's so above the average MMA fighter. Then when he gets in there with these guys, they don't want none of that. And then as soon as they start to get like a little wrestling defense and stuff like that, they become in trouble. You can't take him down anymore. Exactly. And then you stand in front of him. He smoke you. Yes. What could you do? Well, you see that with Alex Pereira now. His takedown defense is much better. And he keeps getting better. He's evolving so quickly.

No, because he's been training. He's been training for so long. He's been training for so long. And then he's also training with Glover, you know, Glover Teixeira, who's also a former champion. I mean, Glover was a guy that was locked out of America for six years. He couldn't come to America for six years because he had visa issues. And he was like the boogeyman. We would all hear about him in Brazil.

Everybody would talk. Yeah, Glover was like one of those guys before he entered into the UFC that I think he wasted his prime, unfortunately, in Brazil. Not I'll say wasted his prime, but I think his prime years were outside of the United States. That's why when he won the title, he was like 42, 43, 43. What exactly is a prime years for a guy that won a title at 44?

at 43. You get to the point, you get you to think that maybe 43 is the prime years. If he won the title that year, right? Yeah, you watch that and you're like, 43? It's not that old? You know, I think at 43 you can still do something. Yeah. Well, it depends on the division, right? Like, George Foreman won the heavyweight title at 45. Yeah. Yeah, he...

Heavyweight? Different. It's more, yeah, it's different. Because they don't push on that gas, you know. Right, right, right. They throw some punch and move. How old is Cedric? Cedric Ndombe? Yeah. Find out how old he is, Jamie. I want to say he's young. Yeah, he's young. He's young. He might be 32. How old is he? 31. That's a good age. At 31? Yeah. Yeah. And with that level of kickboxing, whoo.

And power, man. You know, like not just like technique, but power and endurance. Like it's a rare combination he has of very, very good endurance and extreme power. Yeah, he hit like a deaf guy. He's a fucking killer. I'm excited to see what happens. Do you understand the PFL's point system? Do you understand that system?

What do you mean? You know how they have points, like if you get a knockout in the first round, you get one point or three points. What the fuck are they doing? Why are they doing that? That's for the regular season. I think it's just to push people for a better fight. Everybody knows that you get a knockout, you deserve something better. You get a finish, you get something better.

Right, but you can't always get a finish. But what if you're fighting a guy that's like your level? Like you're both elite and you're both fighting in like this incredible fight. You shouldn't be penalized because you can't take out a fighter who's the best in the world in the first round. That seems crazy to me. Yeah, but either way, if you win a fight, you're winning something. Yeah. You just win more. It's like having a win bonus or something. I don't like win bonuses either. Yeah.

I hate win bonuses. Yeah, me too. I don't like that. I don't like that. I like boxing set up better where you have a contractual, you have a contract. You're going to get paid $10 million, whatever it is. That's what you get. You don't get $10 million, but you only get $5 million if a shitty judge gives it to the other guy, which we've seen so many times in the UFC. Guys lose half their paycheck because of a bad decision. Yeah, but what does that benefit?

Well, who doesn't benefit? I don't know who it benefits. I don't think it benefits anybody. I think it's bad for everybody. I think it's bad for the audience because they're like, what? Because it makes them angry. It's bad for the fighter, for sure. If a fighter loses their paycheck, loses half their paycheck...

because of a bad decision. How about the promotion? I don't even think it's good for the promotion. I think it's unfair. I don't think it makes any sense. No guy's trying. At the elite level, everyone's trying to win. They're all trying to win. No one's not trying to win. Absolutely. No one's going to just coast. For the most part, you get there by winning. Yes. The whole thing is the glory of victory. It's what you're trying to do. You're not going to fight less hard.

I just don't understand the logic behind it. I think it's a flawed concept. I think it's something that never existed in combat sports before MMA and really shouldn't exist. I think fighters fight their best, especially at the elite level. They fight their best. Yeah, I agree with you because when you lose a fight, at least you should get

your full pay on that fight. Yes. But that won't, the loss won't help you with the advantage on the next fight. Right. You know, on next negotiation. Right. I'm like, oh, you lose two fight in a row. Right. So you don't have a power position anymore. Exactly. But like, just to pick half of your purse because you lose a fight. Right.

Yeah. It's crazy. I don't like it at all. No. I don't like it at all. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard people try to argue it, and every time they try to make an argument for it, I'm like, I don't get it. It's not fair for the fighters. Fighters only have, if they're really lucky, like what's the most fights that an elite fighter in the UFC has? Like 50, 45, 50 fights? You know, maybe. 50 fights? Maybe.

There's a few guys that have like that level of fights. Most guys, they top off way less than that. Oh, way, way less. Yeah, way less. So the idea that you just, by the time you start your career, if you already, you have like your injury. Yeah. Good luck.

Right. Good luck to reach 25. Especially ACL surgery out for a year. Shoulder surgery. You're out for a year. Broken hand. You're out for five months. It might never be the same. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And most people, it's not like there's an age to start. Like, oh, you start at 20 or 25. Right. Some people will get there at 30, over 30. I mean, they already have. How old were you when you started training so late? Like, how old were you when you started training?

27? Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it was 27. But that was only when I could have trained. Right, yeah. You only have a certain amount of years. Yeah, but just want to do the best out of those years. Of course, but for you to be fighting on a system that penalizes you if there's a bad judge and you miss half your paycheck. Does the PFL do win bonuses too? Do they do the same thing? I don't know exactly.

Your contract is probably different than everybody else's. Yes, my contract is different. Either way, I wouldn't go for that win bonus stuff. I have nothing against bonus, but don't split my paycheck into talking about win bonus. No, give me my paycheck. If you want to give a bonus for the win, let's do another deal on that one. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because whether I lose or I don't lose, or I win, I train, I get prepared for the fight, I come, I give everything for that fight. I should get paid. Yes. And the same thing that I give in that fight to lose...

Could have get me to win. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And so now the PFL and Bellator are one organization now, right? The PFL acquired Bellator. Is that what's going on? Yes. Do the Saudis have something to do with that as well? Don't they own part of it? They invest in the PFL, yes. In the main PFL because there's a main PFL, a house PFL that has like the PFL and the Bellator now. Hmm.

And then now they are having like a regional PFL, like a PFL Mina that launched this year and then PFL Africa that's launching next year. And that's your shirt. Yeah. And so you're a part of that as well, right? Oh, yeah. That was the biggest, I think that was the biggest reason for me in that contract. The PFL Africa part was the most important one in that contract.

You know, like, before that, I was trying to, like, even to the UFC, I have requested to be like, oh, I want to be the UFC ambassador in Africa. I want to do something out there. I'm like, oh, no, we don't know. You know, this is not, we don't. And then I get a PFA. They say, okay, we're doing this. We'll do that. The

Show me the roadmap like okay. We launched PFL Africa 2025 you're the PFL Africa chairman I'm like which is 10 because I don't want that bullshit of paper chairman or whatever it is like I wish is 10 like what exactly are you seeing in PFL Africa and then They put it out and give show me some element. I'm like good then I'm on board. Mm-hmm

Well, that is one good thing about going over to the PFL because you have so much value to them. Like for you coming over, you were the undisputed heavyweight champion of the UFC. You come over to the PFL, everybody knows who you are. Now it elevates the PFL. So it's nice because it allows you to do more things. And to be honest, one thing, I have a healthy relationship. You know, it's peaceful. Get to the point of my life that...

I really get tired or sick of drama. Sometimes I just get into something, find myself in the middle of some drama and then I just walk away. Whatever you want to say, you might say I disrespect you, you say I this or that.

Bro, I don't have so much energy to give into that. So that was part of what was going on with the UFC. There was a lot of drama. Yeah, and that will take a lot out of you. You get to the point that I'm like, I just want this to be over. I just want it to be over. Get back to my life. But you're already in the middle.

Whether you want to go back, you have to deal with drama. If you have to go forward, you have to deal with drama. So you better keep going forward. Yeah, especially, I mean, like, how much time do you have left, right? I mean, how many more years do you think you're going to be fighting? And it doesn't matter. I mean, soon, 38, and I think I'm going to be... I really want to retire in my... As they say, I want to leave the sport before the sport leaves me. Smart. Yeah, so I'm thinking in...

my average like 41 so three more years yeah 41 do you have a thought of how many more boxing fights versus how many more MMA fights you want to do not exactly I think I would take it how how it comes I'll take it how it comes and so the next fight will be MMA definitely or maybe boxing maybe in a

Maybe in my 40s, I still feel like I have it. If I feel like at 41, I feel like I have it. Well, you keep going away too well. Yeah. Keep going away too well. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

keep regenerating yeah and then take one at at the time you know but uh what i what i really don't want to do is to like wake up and go to the gym like i'm forced you know right if i feel like i have it oh i'm excited oh today is aspiring day i'm going to get there whether i'm going to beat somebody up or they're going to beat me up either way i'm excited right you know if i still have that

I keep going. Right, right. But as soon as I don't have that, even if I'm not 40 yet, I think it's a sign, it's a call out.

Yeah, well, that's intelligent. That's smart. That's the way you phrased it. I like the way you phrased it. Leave the sport before the sport leaves you. Yeah, that's... Because we've all seen guys who hung around too long. I would still always do the sport. I would never really leave the sport. But the competition at that level, you know, you need to be ready. You need to be into it. You need to want to be there. You don't just want to do it because, okay, I have to. No, you don't go...

play with punches because you have to know. Right, right, right, right, right. You better want to. You want to be enthusiastic. Yeah. Yeah. So do you know for sure that you'll be fighting MMA next or is it possible that a big boxing match could present itself and you would do that next? I will say MMA next. Definitely. Yeah, I will say MMA next because I suppose to fight, um,

It's been over a year, a little over a year now since the PFR agreement and then supposed to have a fight in a year. So now we are getting a little out of the timeline for sure. And by the time we figured out who should be my opponent and I think things are very clear now. Renan Ferreira made himself very clear that he's a champion

challenger that should make the fight. He's the opponent that can make that fight happen. And let's assume you get past that. Will you then decide whether or not you're going to fight MMA next or boxing next? Because one of the things about the PFL is there's not a lot of

There's not a lot of very compelling challenges for you there, unfortunately. At least now. They could sign some more top fight heavyweights. I mean, who knows what happens with many people. Who knows what happens with Jon Jones? I mean, I don't know what happens with any of these guys. I mean, he could wind up going to the PFL. Who fucking knows? He could. If they come up with some big money, you know, you could get a lot of people that will be willing to go over there. Yeah, definitely.

I mean, like, after... I think after this fight, I'll see what happens. I don't really have a clear mind on what will happen. But I will say most likely boxing. Most likely boxing after that? Yeah, most likely boxing. Do you have an opponent in mind? No. No? Absolutely not. We will see the landscape and what I can get. Who I can get. Because my...

My expectation, as you were asking me earlier, like how many fights do I think I can do in MMA or boxing? I think if I get to a good four-fight plan in boxing, I think that could be good. You get a good four-fight and then you build who and who should be next. That could be my...

potential retirement. Well, it sounds like you already made a good amount of money. Yeah, I've made a good amount of money, but...

you also have to remember that I started this sport for passion. You know, you don't start the sport for the money because at first there is no money. Right. At first it's just punch flying over your head all over and you have to touch and then fight and not get paid, fight for free for quite some time, you know, so...

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I love the sport. I still love the sport. I love the sport. I love combat sport. I love fighting. And I think I'll do it until I feel like I cannot do it anymore. Is boxing more unique to you because it's a new challenge? Boxing is different to me because even my body,

Even the muscles memory are not the same. The functionality of my body is not the same. Unlike MMA that I know every single action in MMA, every single moment, I've been there tens of times. I know. I get this. But boxing, you're still like, okay,

You know, you might get even in some position and get stressed because you've never been there. You don't know. You have to figure it out. Right. Instead of it being extinction. Yeah. Until you get there two, three times, then you're like, ah, it's okay. I can deal with it. You know, MMA, I go MMA fight with a knee injury. I'm still like, I get this. But boxing, a little different. You basically know that.

questioning yourself about if you can handle this. It's not like, I get this. Right, right, right. It's different. There's a lot of thinking because it's a new thing for you. When you train for boxing, I know you have Dewey Cooper, you have Eric Nixick. Did you bring other people in to help train you in boxing? Yeah, I brought John Bumba from France. He assist Dewey sometime because he's very like...

He has a very good amateur style, which I think is something that I still need to build in my game. And, yeah, other than that, I have Trip, which is my strength and conditioning coach. So I put those elements down. Did you get a chance to spar any top heavyweights in America? Top heavyweight like who? I would say Carlos Takam. Guido is top right now. He's my...

He's my other sparring partner. But in America, not other top. I get Jeremiah Milton as well, but not other big name in America. Which is even more impressive, your performance against Tyson Fury, when you consider you really didn't even spar elite heavyweights. Listen, I think sometimes we...

We don't give credit to some people because they don't just have a name. Because they haven't had a stage to play on. And we think like, oh, he's nobody. Oh, he's not an elite. Let me take you some example. Before Andy Ruiz fought Anthony Joshua,

Would you think about him as an elite fighter? No, a lot of people had no idea. But he was still there, and he was just as good as he is right now. But he's unusual. But because he didn't have the scene to be seen...

to be exposed so nobody care about him and he should say oh aspa with ng reason i'm like yes but you haven't spar with it you see yes and there's a lot of people like that out there right a lot of people that haven't got their shot yet but yeah they haven't got the shot but they are there right they're present they are elite well when you first made your way and you know when you told that story on the podcast of your journey leaving cameroon and making your way and getting

turned back so many times when you first arrived and you finally got to France you wanted to be a boxer no even before I left I wanted to be a boxer even decade before I left I wanted to be a boxer that wasn't even a question I always knew what I wanted so when it finally went full circle and you became a boxer again did it feel like oh this is how it was supposed to be

I was living my dream. There is no way that, I don't think there is a way that things are supposed to be. You get what you get and then you be grateful and then you make the best out of it. Yeah. You know, so I was living the dream. You know, I ended up having the fight, having to fight two best boxers in the world after having a great MMA career.

Not bad from a guy coming from where I came from. No, it's amazing. Basically from having the path that I had, you know, and who knows? Some good thing might still happen. Oh, some good things I'm sure will still happen, but that your path is incredible. And I encourage anybody that hasn't heard it to go back and listen to the first podcast you and I did together where you explained it. Uh,

I was stunned. I remember for the rest of the day, all I could think about was your story and how insane it is.

What you had to go through to finally make it to Europe. Incredible story. You know, just as I was saying earlier, because some people hasn't been exposed, they haven't got a big stage, like they don't care about them. There are a lot of people out there with a better story than mine, with a better, stronger than mine, that even me, I'm impressed. I'm like, bro, how do you do that? I don't think

think I could have done that you know but and there are a lot no like one or like two three a lot of people you know but I think I happen to be the one that have

The scene and have been exposed my story has been exposed to the world. It's you went through that struggle and I have the Joe Rogan experience to tell my own story which they don't have. Well, I'd happy I'd be happy to have them on too if they had a story like yours and the success that you've had from that. It's very inspiring and it speaks to the human spirit and

Because that's what people love to hear about someone who did not give up and struggled so hard. How many times did you get sent back? Seven, eight times? Six times. Six times. In the ocean, six times. And then I made it seven times. Crazy. Crazy.

7-7 is a magic number. It is a magic number, right? It's a lucky number. I made it the 7th. Yeah. The 7 times. It's an incredibly inspirational story. And I love the fact that you're dedicated to doing this thing in Africa now and to give more people an opportunity and to give them a path towards a career. You know...

Regardless of what you might think of my life, I think I'm a very blessed guy. I think I'm a very lucky guy. First of all, I think even if when I explain, you might not really understand where I came from. And to imagine that I'm here today calling a shot, bro, it's crazy. Yeah.

it's just insane, you know? So I think I'm a very, uh, lucky guy. God have really blessed me. And then, um,

I also think those blessings come with a lot of opportunities that I can bring back. Because when I was there for so many times, I can't tell you how many times my hope was for somebody to come do something, to some good Samaritan, to take some action that I would take advantage of. Then it happened that...

I have been blessed to be the guy that can do that. And even without taking anything out of me. So I'm like, he will be a sin not to do something. For example, for the PFA Africa, my dream about that, what gets me excited about that is just seeing myself not have to leave Africa as I did

And then have to compete in the good platform like that. Have to make a living. Have to fight in the world class fighter in that level and just stay at home. Right. And not have to risk all this life, go through all this stuff to the ocean, through the ocean, the barbed wire, the prison stuff that I've been through to do that.

I just have to stay home and do that. So now it's a platform that's going to give opportunity to many people that maybe have a plan to go through that same path and that might not have made it. They're just doing it at home. That's beautiful. How could you not think of doing something like that when you have an opportunity? And it's not like, oh...

is a war that they carry and put on your head and a burden that you have to carry is the opportunity that you can just help participate and make it happen.

So tell me, how does this play out? Do you establish gyms in Africa? Are you going to put a gym in Cameroon? How are you going to do this? I have two gyms in Cameroon already. Oh, you do? Yeah. Through my foundation, I have one gym for six years now. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then the second gym has been around for almost two years, and we built that one with a partner. I

I mean, a partner helped us to build. They like our project with the foundation and then they joined us, Premier Bed. They joined us to that, to build that gym for us. A very big, big-ass gym.

So we have that too. And we were in the project to build the third one. But with the PFL, one thing that I requested and then it was granted was that everywhere that we are going to do, we're going to try to build gyms around. Because yes, it's good to bring PFL, to bring competition around. But remember, so many of those people, they have nothing. Many of those kids that want to fight, they might be training in the gym

beach on the beach they might be training they don't really have a gym to train at but yet you're expecting them to compete at the highest level so it's at least good to have a system that will help them you know it's like having a garden

Right. Yeah, having a garden to create talent that you need for your organization, you know. So helping them to help you because at the end of the day, you need talent. At the end of the day, talent needs organization. So the thing is that with PFA Africa, we're going to build gyms that fighters will use and develop. And then we're going to also...

help like get coaches, experienced coaches that can go and teach and also teach another coach how to properly train at that level, stuff like that. So,

That's the goal. It's about building something. It's not like here that you come and everything is established and you have your promotion and go. No. It's like building something, working from the grassroots.

Yeah. That's beautiful. So Africa is obviously a huge continent and there's so many countries in it. Full of talent. What is the scene like in Africa right now in terms of like what are the local promotions and how many of them are there and how many like young talented fighters do you see that are coming out of there that could eventually come over to the PFL or the UFC or Bellator or 1FC or any of the large organizations? Okay. Yeah.

So you asked me the question like many Americans, what is the scene in Africa?

Africa is 52 countries. Right. And I never been in five of them. So I know South Africa has a large scene, you know, obviously Drek is duplices from South Africa. There's a lot of good fighters. I think it's EFC, something like that. Nigeria, they've been doing good. Uh, they also have a, I think it's African knockout that Usman Kamaru is part of. Right. Um,

And there are also some regional organizations that might be smaller or not quite popular. Is there one large organization over there at all? No, not yet. So most of them are fairly small? Yeah, because, again, you have to build everything from scratch. Right. So everybody is trying to do the best out of what they get. Right, right. But to have a good organization,

You need to build gym. You need to give those fighter where to train. You need to help them about like having... Get experience. Get experience, get training. Top coaches. Even get top coaches. Yeah. And then...

more people training at least they have training partners which is not they don't have right you have seen i have seen a lot of some african fighter that are really good but they don't have they'll have to go somewhere else because they don't have a training partners you know but with with uh this uh program they're gonna have it's gonna be a whole ecosystem

a healthcare system in the fact that you're going to have a gym that you're going to train and then maybe provide a fighter for who's going to fight in the promotion and that's

might have money and then that money will attract people, you know, will attract other people to train because he has seen other one making a living out of training. He has seen that it's possible. He has seen the opportunity right next to his door. Right. They are here. I don't have to travel. It's not in America anymore. It's not in Europe anymore. Right. It's here. I just have to stay here and get dedicated. So it's

And it's interesting, too, if the PFL has a, I mean, if they establish PFL Africa, the beautiful thing is that if they have top level fights over there and then they take those fights and they broadcast them all over the world, then there's so much opportunity. Yes. I mean, the fighter of PFL Africa will not only be seen in Africa, not to mention that

the champions of the PFL Africa, just as PFL MENA and PFL Europe, they will all come together to fight for the main PFL title. That's exciting. Everybody is getting that big stage. They are all working. They are all still under the main PFL. Yes. Which is something that is very interesting. And then we give more...

more spotlight, more opportunity, also get attention of media. And then who says media says attention of sponsor that will go maybe to gym, to fighters, and that will create an ecosystem around that media interests, sponsor come around, and then fighter get paid, and then maybe his sparring partner get paid, or whatever.

I don't know if he has an assistant or somebody working for him, get paid, and the money is now in the loop. And do you see yourself, after you retire from fighting, going into a coaching and mentoring role for fighters? Do you see yourself being more of an executive position, like working with either the PFL or whoever? Yeah.

I don't really... I never see myself as a coach. I don't have, like, a vocation for that. It's not something that I'm looking forward to. Although, I see myself, like, maybe stay in the sport some way. Like, I also don't see myself as a manager. That's a hard job. Yeah, I'm not cool. A lot of bullshit. Managers deal with a lot of bullshit. Like, you...

I just think that to be a good, it's a job that you think like to be good at it, you need to be screwing somebody. Right. Most likely. Not always, but most likely. Might be on the table. So I don't see myself like that, but I see myself really like working on like the growth of the sport, basically in Africa. And again, that's why like the PFA Africa comes to me like,

the writing. Yeah. You know, the, the, the retirement plan, thinking that I could be focused on being working on. I know how Africa worked perfectly. I know how PFA worked perfectly. I know, uh, Pete Mary and Don Davis, they are very excited about it, but bro, they are white people from America and they don't know how Africa works. Yeah.

I am from Africa and I know the deep ground of Africa and I know the challenge there. I know the problem there as an athlete and I think that's where I will impact. I think a role of an executive will be like, it's some fancy thing that, yes, I might have, but I think my good job is to work on the field because I know the problem on the field, the root.

and the problem there what could be done what need to be done what fight what they what they need you know I think that's what I would be best at also for young fighters I don't think like being like

Yeah, it's cool to be chairman of PFR Africa, but I'm not going to sit in the office. I'm like, oh, I'm a chairman and then wear suit and tie every day to run stuff. You know, I think I get it. No, it doesn't seem like it. But I think like for you, for a young fighter, there's no greater source of inspiration than a guy like yourself.

I mean, if you look at your career, you've only been fighting for 10 years. Look at all you've accomplished. UFC heavyweight champion, fought two of the best boxers alive. You're an international superstar. You made millions of dollars. Like, that is the height of inspiration. Don't say that on mic, Joe. Sorry. Everybody knows. Yeah, but when you say that out loud, maybe you get some lawsuit. You know.

Money is like honey. You always attract bees. That's so true. That's so true. A lot of stingers out there. So let's forget about the money. But just look at the accomplishment and just knowing that you came, especially, again, if someone hears your story of how hard it was for you to literally essentially walk from Cameroon to Morocco and then make it all the way over to Europe and then make a career and finally and then make it to the United States.

get into the UFC, and then in a matter of a few short years become the UFC heavyweight champion. For young fighters, that's like, that guy did it. He did it. He came from where I came from. I can do it now. Once someone has done it, it makes it more accessible, at least mentally, to a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the fundamental idea about my foundation is

The reason why I did a foundation, for me, he was just so... Not only those kids can have access in the gym, which is something that me growing up, I was just dreaming about it. The only gym that I have seen until I was 22 was the gym that I saw whether in my dream or in the TV. I never see a real gym, even though I always want to do combat sport. But I...

I thought like, if you build like nice gym, not only those kids have access, he make them have this feeling, this connection with reality. Like, Oh, the thing that I always see in TV is here. It's possible, you know? And then the guy that maybe I've seen in TV on TV or heard about, he's also here. Like he's around, he came here. So it's possible, you know, because, um,

So the idea of the foundation was just to motivate kids, allow them to believe in themselves. And I think it's still what we're working on to help them believe, trust, have a trust in themselves, a self-believing, have a self-confidence in themselves. And this doesn't matter what they want to do in life. You might want to be a doctor. You might want to be a lawyer, accountant, journalist, whatever you want to do. But I do...

think that a guy that believe somebody that believe believe in himself

Success for that guy is just a matter of time. And you can be a champion in whatever you do. You don't have to be a fighter to become a champion. I'm glad you brought that up because there's another question I wanted to ask you. Do you have any other aspirations of doing things outside of fighting once you've retired? Because one of the things you were talking to Jamie about before the show started was producing. You were talking about production, like film and filming things. Do you have other aspirations? Yes.

I have a lot of aspirations, but not like a job. I have a lot of passion. You know, I'm passionate about a lot of things. Today, I use... I can... I have...

quite a resource to have some hobbies, you know, stuff that I'm excited about, I'm passionate about. I create a small production in Cameroon, in my village, just to train kids so they can have to touch camera like this, all those stuff that we have here.

I have it back home. They touch, they learn on it. You know, I just want them to be able to operate a good camera. If someday they want to do or somebody want to do a movie, they have somebody that can operate a nice camera just home. Don't need to go to Europe or in America to bring people because local they can do and they have been trained on good cameras, you know. So I have staff like that a lot.

What inspired you to do that in terms of cameras and production and stuff? I always love cameras. I always love, I see and I always impress and then I see stuff here and then I see the challenge, the difference that are, you know, like you will see somebody that

make a film uh a movie that might be be on netflix with a very low quality of camera then i'm like what if this guy has a have it has access on a good camera what can he do right you know well that's one of the things you like you were talking about with fighters yeah that there's a lot of people out there that are very talented that just haven't had their shot their

they're shot yet. Absolutely. There's a lot of people like that with filmmaking and with stand-up comedy and writing, literature. Everything. Yeah. They just have another opportunity. And I always say this. I think we might have become the first African champion just because there wasn't so many people that have a chance. I mean, like, when you look at Kamaru Adesanya, I...

I'm sure if you go to Africa, you can find some motherfucker who can beat us up. But lucky us, we didn't have that chance yet. That's very humble of you. We took the opportunity. Right? But you open the door, though, and it makes it possible for others. That's one of the more important things about accomplishment. But as time goes by, the challenge will become tougher and tougher. And we will come around and we might come very short.

Well, look at Brazil. I mean, look at Brazil. There's so many champions, so many elite fighters come out of Brazil now. It's because Royce Gracie opened that door, and then the UFC just became a place for them. And then if you take even that Royce Gracie on his prime, put him here, he's going to get beat up maybe by some kickboxer. Yeah. But he was the one that opened that door, that gave that opportunity, that made the path.

Yeah, it's just it's so important that you recognize that that like your position is not just as an individual, but your position is as an inspiration to others and to give people this this they see it like I can do it. He did it. It's possible.

Yeah, I think in life we take every opportunity that we have. We get to the point, again, that we have an opportunity to affect other life. How many people affect other life? How many people in their lifetime walk around and parents walk to them and are like, oh, my kid wants to be like you. Right. You know what I think?

I think it's something really cool. It's really great. It's very cool. Like a parent that want the best for their kids. Yes, kids wanted to be like you. Yes, it's different because he's not very smart. He's not wise. And even kids want to do some dumb shit. So you might be a bad guy and kids still want to be like you. A drug dealer. But a parent that really protective about their kids, like want the best for their kids.

And then they will come like, oh, your son is such an inspiration. My kid want to be like you. So that's basically like him approving that he

He kid should be like you. He hope for his kid to become like you. That's a big statement, which is pretty cool. Yeah, it is pretty cool. It's really cool. It's really cool. And it's such a unique time for people, too, because Internet is available pretty much all over the world now. So kids in all these countries, especially if they have phones, they have access to all of this information. And it's messy. It's coming from all over.

And they can find everything. Yeah. Everything. Now, how to help them pick what's good and what's not good. Right. That's the problem. Yeah. Because information is good, but... A lot of it's bullshit. A lot of it is bullshit. You have to filter. Because some of them are just bad seed.

Yeah, that's true too. Yeah. And then have you seen what's happening in Amazon? There's this very small uncontacted tribe and they got internet access. And now a lot of them are just on their phones all day. And then the tribe leaders are like, well, what the fuck? Everyone's lazy. You guys are becoming like Americans now. You're just on your phone all day. They're looking at tits and looking at porn and like, you know. Of course. Yeah.

And this thing that they thought would be a beautiful thing, oh, this would be so great. We're going to get access to information. People are going to get educated. Instead, you know, a lot of them are just looking at TikTok videos. Yeah, but... They're going to have to figure out how to manage that. Educated people, for the most part, are lazy. Really? You think so? Yeah. I think people, for the most part, are lazy if you give them an opportunity to be lazy. No. It's hard to be disciplined.

Especially if you don't have examples of other disciplined people around you. You know, some people might just have been educated, keep going to school because they choose school over work.

That's true. And some people choose work over school. That's true as well, yeah. And then you go to school, and after being graduated or have your PhD, and then you're like, oh, he's educated. He's this. In fact, you were running away from a job. I'm sure that's educators. That's the problem with our universities. Those people want to teach you. At the end of the day, yes, you are educated, educated.

But in reality, you are lazy. If you have a job, if you have a job that is going to wear suit and act like a boss every day, you can do it. But if he has to start something and work really hard, he can't stand it. Right. Yeah, he can't stand it. There's a lot of truth in that. But someone will also be a worker because they had a vision. They want to do that. They are excited of a knowledge to...

implement into something and then after that they just start a business and this you know because starting a business is never easy you have to be a worker when you start a business it's not like a 9 to 5 job

You know, you don't have time. Sometimes you have to wake up at midnight or at 2 a.m. to pick up a call because this guy is, I don't know, in China, in Europe and the time different. And you have to keep going. You have to be on his time. You have to be on meeting in the meeting at this time. So that's where, you know, if you are a worker or not.

But if you sit at the office 9 to 7, yeah, wear your suit. I'm a manager of this. I'm that. I'm that. You might be lazy. And lazy people do a good job too because lazy people find a strategy of avoiding work.

That's true. Which is very intelligent. Yes. Yeah, they find ways. Yes, that's true. To get things done without really putting in the work. That is true. Yeah, there's so many books like that. The four-hour work week, you know? Yeah. There's a lot of books on people just trying to avoid work. Yeah. But they still have to move to wash their dishes, their clothes. Like dishwasher, for example, I think is the idea of some lazy person that didn't want to wash dishes.

You agree with me? So a lazy person didn't want to wash dishes, so they hired a dishwasher. No, they invented. Oh, they invented dishwasher. Oh, a machine. Yeah. They thought about it. Like, how can I get my dishes clean without have to wash it? Also, it's more efficient because you can put them in the dishwasher. No, it's efficient, but the idea...

come from laziness. Interesting. I mean, he might be. I'm not saying he's the thing, but he might be coming from laziness. You have a point. I don't want to wash my clothes anymore. How can I? But I still need to wear clean clothes. Right. How can I do to get my clothes clean without washing them? Wash machine. Make a machine.

That's true, right? Because you only wear like one piece of clothes a day and you only use one plate when you eat. How hard is it to wash that one plate? It takes 30 seconds. You get some soap, you get a sponge, rinse it off, put it in the dryer, you're done. That's a good point, man. I never thought of it that way. I get in my house and there's something that I eat.

I still don't understand. Sometimes I will leave plates around and then if I have my housekeeping coming, they will always take them and put in the dishwasher and everything in the dishwasher. And I don't know what happens if it's the dishwasher, something wrong with it, it never gets clean.

properly well you kind of have to clean them before you put them in the dishwasher which is crazy so if you just cleaned them a little bit more you wouldn't have to put them in the dishwasher you probably save time okay personally i never use a dishwasher i don't know how it works and i don't know how it works the easier thing for me is after using one or two plates i wash it i put it there yeah it's it's easier or even if i stack like

Three, four plates after I come, take five minutes, clean it, put it there. Yeah. It's easier for me than running machine and this, which I don't even know how it works.

too much and it's gonna be sometime he might be loud I just want to watch my TV and that shit is running behind me true that's true yeah that's true that's a good point yeah that is a lazy person's invention a smart lazy person yeah yeah lazy people are very creative very I never thought about it that way but I think you're right yeah

But then there's some things like vacuum cleaner. You need that. How the fuck are you going to get anything out of a carpet without a vacuum cleaner? You need that. Yeah. There's some inventions that clean that make sense. No, no. I mean, everything makes sense. Yeah. Even like a washing machine makes sense. Yeah. You know, after training, you come, you put your clothes there, you train twice a day, you put your clothes after two days, you press that button on the machine.

when you're leaving because you start out. Come back, it's done, you put it in the dryer again. Yeah, no, that's a very good point, though, about inventions and also about how lazy people avoid work and about a lot of educated people are just avoiding work by continuing their education. I know personally people that have done that. They get their PhD, they get grants, they get loans. Oh, no, you go in like a family house and

And then there are like maybe four kids. There's dishes. They have to clean the house. And then someone have a homework. And even if he does have a homework, he's reading a book. He's in the middle of the book. So that means he's not cleaning anything because he's reading. You guys are not reading. You have to clean. So how easy is that? Well, people love to put off things they're supposed to do.

It's an interesting thing, too, about fighters because the difference between – there's a lot of factors involved in being a fighter. There's the mentality. There's the ability to focus and to perform under pressure. It's very difficult to do. But there's also the ability to prepare properly. So like to have the discipline to do everything that you're supposed to do. And it's even more difficult sometimes for talented people. Yeah, I think –

I think fighting is more about discipline because not always talented people will make it. And you might have talent as much as you want. If you don't work, if you don't put some work in and then get discipline, you will not get there. If you look like the champions of every weight class, every promotion, most likely they are not the most talented.

But they are very hard workers. Yes. And they have like something very special that distinguished them. Do you know the expression, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard? Yeah. Yeah.

That's it. That's true. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Because talent, one of the things that's unfortunate about talent is that when you're talented, you're better than everybody else in the gym. And so you can kind of get away without training as hard. Maybe you have physical gifts. Maybe you just have an understanding of fighting. And then you take it for granted because you didn't have to work to get it. You don't even have the feeling that you need to work more to improve it because he was just there. Right. So...

You don't even understand that they work for it. Right. You just happen to have it. Yep. And then they say you have to work for it. Come on, bro. For what? Right. I didn't do anything. Right. And if you can get away with it for a while, you develop habits of not training yourself.

100%. Not really putting 100% into it, but still being successful because you're talented. But then you run into someone who's talented and has discipline. And that's when you get fucked up. Okay, and that's the problem. Right. When you get talent and discipline, you get a Michael Jordan. You get Mike Tyson. Talent and discipline, you get Mike Tyson. Yeah. And then you also get some people that are not talented, but they are just the best worker in the room. Mm-hmm.

Your talent will have, at some point, talent will have a limit. Yes. Yeah, talent has a limit. Especially if someone is willing to really outwork you, really outwork everyone. Yeah, he has to because when you don't have talent,

you basically start from nothing. Then you have one, then you have two, then you know that you have those two because you've been working. So you have to keep working, not only to maintain, to keep the two, but to get the three and the four. And then you get into that process and then you get to work. But when you get talent, you wake up someday, you have five out of 10 without working. You don't understand that you need to work to get the six and seven. But the guy that

Only has like the two. He already understood that. He already knew that he needs to work to get those two to get the three. So at some point, he's going to catch you at five. And if you're not improving, he's going to keep going up. He's going to get to six and seven. And you're going to be like, this motherfucker was below me. At five or barely go at six, seven. Yeah. And then there's guys that are really good in the gym.

And then when they get to the bright lights, they can't perform, which is the craziest thing. There's these superstars in the gym. And I remember from my kickboxing days, there was guys that were just so good in the gym. And then they would get into that ring and they were just...

You could see it. They just diminished. Like they were 50% of themselves when they competed. Why do you think that? I don't know. Maybe there's something about anxiety, their inability to manage stress. Maybe, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what it is. I always feel like some people can overcome it.

And they don't. And some people do. Some people, they start off as great gym guys and then they perform badly. But then eventually they figure it out. They just keep growing and learning. But there are also a lot of people that go to the gym to become a world champion at the gym. You know, I have seen a lot of, there's a lot of people that you get even in the gym. They are coming to try to figure out that guy. He's good, so I might have to check him out.

They have that mentality. So in the gym, while you, maybe as a professional fighter, you're there to train, have a good training to learn. Because you know that you only have one place that you want to show up. In the fight. The two other months, you're in the gym and sometimes if you have somebody in front of you that you feel like he's not catching up with your level,

You give him an advantage. I'm like, okay, let me start on the back. Let me start on this position. You give him an advantage so he can challenge you more. You know what you're doing. You know why you are doing that. That takes a healthy control of your ego. You see a guy that is a good wrestler, a good jujitsu, but has very bad striking.

You know that you always start on a stand up, you always start up and then he might not be able to take you down. I'm like, okay, let's go. Let's start on the ground. Step on me. Half guard, full guard, stuff like that. Because you know that you want to work that position. You're taking advantage on him.

But some people are there like to prove that, oh, I'm something. They're competing instead of training. They're competing. Yeah. They're competing. Yeah. And they don't usually gain more on that. And those people will get in the fight and it's different. Yeah, it's different. That is a very interesting thing, right? It's like some people understand it objectively. Like, I'm here to learn and

grow and I need to work on my weaknesses to make them my strengths and some people want to avoid their weaknesses so they only work on their strengths so they look good in the gym yeah yeah because they care about how they look yeah I used to see that a lot with kickboxers that didn't want to do jujitsu

Because they didn't like to get tapped. Because on the feet, they were a killer. And then they go to the ground, they're like a beginner. They don't like that. They don't like getting dominated on the ground. So they would just skip jiu-jitsu classes, skip wrestling training. They didn't want to have anything to do with that. I think it was also about a generation that people around the gym wasn't understanding also. Like...

There is a gym. There are people that if you are training with them and something happens and you tap, they will be like, oh, you're a pussy.

Right. You know, and I think those kind of people, they don't help their teammate to improve, you know. No. Instead of like, oh, no, you shouldn't do this or you should do this instead to avoid that. I'm like, oh, no, bro, you don't tap. Like, yeah, you don't tap. Then what? You go to sleep? Or you break your arm. Or you break your arm? Yeah, if you don't tap in the gym, you're a moron. Yeah, it's a stupid thing to not tap in the gym, and I've been stupid before. Yeah.

It's like a thing that people do where they think that they're, yeah, all you're doing is getting injured. And if you don't tap to an arm bar, you're going to fuck your elbow up and then you might not be able to train right for months. Yes. Yeah, you have to. Yeah, you know, the Gracies have a great perspective on that. They always say keep it playful.

They always say that when you're in the gym, you're just training and learning, and you've got to keep it playful. Marcelo Garcia says that all the time. He's one of the greatest jiu-jitsu guys of all time. He says you have to open up your game in the gym. You can't be closed off and be too defensive. You have to open up your game and learn what happens if you get stuck in bad positions. Yeah, learn when you get caught. If you get caught, you tap. And even if you don't get caught sometimes,

Get yourself in a position to get caught. Yes. Or let somebody cut you and try to defend. Yes. Understand how to get out of there. Yes. You do that. That's why they call it practice. Do you think you'll ever compete in jiu-jitsu? You ever think that's something that's interesting to you? Me? Yeah. No, I don't think so. I don't have any knees or ankles to give up. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That's a good point. Man, I watched a video this past weekend of a guy getting his leg broken. If I was 25, yes. I'm going to send you this, Jamie, because this is horrific. If I was 25, 2025, I would take those chances to do all those stuff. Fun. I don't have anything to give up. Yeah, I'm going to show you something, Jamie. This video scared the fucking shit out of me.

This video is this guy gets caught in this heel hook. Hold on a second. Where is it? Yeah, I'm going to send it to you, Jamie. Yeah, I'm sending it to you, Jamie. This shit's horrible. This guy gets caught in an inside heel hook like 10 seconds into the match, and he doesn't tap, and his leg snaps in half. Yeah. Watch this. That's stupid. Check this out. So this guy, they scramble. Oh! Oof.

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That sound. Play that again so I can hear that sound. That's in South Africa. That's South Africa. Punch me in the face, bro. Yeah, that leg might not ever be the same again. No, punch me in the face. Not the leg, yourself. Like, do you imagine like just thinking of the day that your leg...

Make this sound like, oh, God damn. It snapped right here, right? Yeah. Like right there? Yes. Like the spiral? Yeah, spiral fracture of his shin. Horrible. Yeah. And the sound was like a baseball bat breaking. Yeah. Oh, I'll never forget the sound when Chris Weidman kicked Uriah Hall and snapped his knee and snapped his shin in half. The sound was so horrible.

And he's never been the same again. You know, it's like that, those breaks, like especially the shin break, you know, I wonder like if Conor McGregor is ever going to come back again.

It's very difficult to come back from that break. That's one of the worst injuries. - And I think for that kind of injury, the most difficult part is the mental part. You don't know if it's gonna be there again. - Right. - To try to get to like, obviously you have your rehab, right? But you rehab the part that is injured.

the rehab of your mind to be able to trust that again right the problem you know like

I don't know about that. Maybe we just skip this part. Well, even when you're not injured, like your fight with Stipe and then you fight Derek Lewis, in the back of your mind, you're still thinking about the Stipe fight, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm still fighting Stipe. I'm still like, what the hell? Why did I do this? No, I should be patient. I should do this. You know, I'm there fighting Stipe. And then I get surprised when the fight was over.

And then I'm like, okay, this is it. We still have one more round, right? No, it's over. It's been three rounds. Because I was just being patient. Yeah. Well, you came back from that, though. How did you come back from that? How did you get your mind straight? I mean, I think I get to the point that I just let it go. And I'm like, okay. Because I'm like, if this is the end, at least let's finish how we started.

At the beginning, he was off phone. Right, right, right. Like having fun. I feel like at some point along the way, I lost that phone. I don't know when, but I lost that phone. And it's about like, oh, winning, you have to win. You shouldn't lose this, blah, blah, blah, blah. So did you make a decision in your mind to go back to having fun again? Yeah.

He was just like, have fun and then whatever happened, happened. Don't care. And if this is it, if you lose again and then maybe have to get caught or whatever, at least enjoy it.

And then I get in China, have to fight Curtis Blade, 45 seconds, it was over. I'm like, ah, not bad, having fun. Fun for you. Yes. The performance of the night, then keep going. So did you ever work with a psychologist or a performance coach, or did it all just, you figure it out yourself?

I try, but I think I have like a personal blockage. I don't believe in that. Really? Yeah. I don't know. I talk to myself a lot. I spend time with me, with myself. I mean, most of the time I'm by myself.

I'm a lonely person, so I spent time with myself and I talked to myself a lot. I figured out, I analyzed. And this was just me growing up, you know. Didn't even have friends, didn't have people to hang out with. I wasn't welcome among kids, so I created my own world in my mind that

my own friends and everything in my mind. So just used to hang out with myself. So I get used to just like that. Well, that's so much better for a person in your position in life than to have an entourage. So I know a lot of guys when they get very successful, they have an entourage. So they're surrounded by yes men all the time. And that is one of the worst things that happens to a successful person. But for them, for some people, it's cool.

You know, like even now, I think no later than last week, I was in the restaurant and I walked there by myself, took a table, sit down. The people look over there like, is that fucking Francis Ngannou? Yeah, order my food, eat. Do people freak out? Like, is that Francis Ngannou sitting by himself? Some people recognize you. I'm like, yeah, are you expecting somebody? And most of the time, the answer is yes.

basically like leave me alone right so you generally like being by yourself yeah I like to I do that a lot and people I'm like

Are you live here by yourself? Are you by yourself? I'm like, what's the problem by being by yourself? It's being independent. I'm free. I don't need anybody to decide on my happiness or me having fun or whatever. Sometimes I will spend two days in my house without going out. And I'm good with it. And I can go out. I can do whatever I want. But I just want to be there.

I did that recently. You know, my family was out of town and I was home by myself for three days. It was glorious. I loved it. It gives you time to think about things. I do that a lot. But recently, I've been changing a little bit because staying home a lot will make me think and will make me sad.

since I lost my kid, my boy. Then he will make me think and make me sad. And if I stay there, I will keep having those thoughts, the sadness around. It's like the energy around me is just sad. I understand.

Then what I do is like when I start to feel something like that, I just have to force myself, like get out, grab the car key, get the hell out of here. Like I'm running away from something. Then by the time you even find the car key, you find your shoes, you do this, your mind is already thinking of something. But if you just sit in your couch, then it's keep going, keep going, then it's sad, then you're pissed, then you're like...

Hit life, everything. Your son was 15 months old? 15 months old. What happened? I think he has some malformation on his brain, which is something that we didn't know. He fainted. He passed out twice. The first time was in Cameroon. We took him to the hospital. They didn't find anything.

The second time was in Saudi. We took him to the hospital. They did, they ran a lot of exams. They didn't do anything. They did the EEG. They didn't do the scan or MRI because I think according to them, their conclusion was that he has a swollen lung, you know, and that was what was pressing his chest and stopping him

him from breathing and create that thing. So after all those exams, they give him some medicine that he's going to be okay. Nothing to worry about. Because at first, they even thought about like asthma. They give like a ventilator. And then after some results, they took him out. And then, you know, it put me in confidence. Even though like, I don't know, sometimes

I think, somewhere in my mind, I have to think that, yes, but he didn't show any stress respiratory. If it was something from his lung, but I'm like, bro, those was professional doctor and this, and then I trust that. Yeah. So I basically, like, put my guard down. And I remember being, just getting in Dubai, and that day I was thinking, like, oh, life is...

Meanwhile, I'm not doing bad. Life is good. You know, I went to the gym. Like, maybe I should go to club tonight. And I don't go to club. I don't go out. Like, man, come on. Which kind of guy are you? I went to the gym to work out. I'm in the bike cycling. Then I tried to call. I wanted to talk to him when I was on the phone, on the bike. Then I called his mom. His mom didn't pick up the phone. And I'm like, after I'm done,

I'm gonna go take my shower, lay in the bed and call him. 30 minutes after, I was on the leg machine, my phone rang, it was my little brother. I said, bro, things are not going well here. I'm like, what? He said, Kobe passed out, he's not breathing, we are at the hospital, they kicked me out from the room. And I'm like, what happened?

And then as we are talking, he's also trying to get information. So I lost him for like three, four minutes. Then after I called again, again, and then I'm talking to him while he's talking to the nurse. The nurse was like, who are you? Are you his dad? He said, no. Then who are you? I'm his uncle. Where is dad? His dad is not here. He's gone. Just like that. He's gone. What do you mean? He's gone.

How come he's gone? This kid was 15 months. He was bigger than 15 months. He was growing. He was the most joyful, happy kid around. Hey! What do you mean he's gone? Gone where? Bro, that was it. I thought I was dreaming. I thought they were going to say something. No, that's not true. Then I keep calling again. And everybody is confirmed. I call my mom. My mom is just on tier. Bro,

what the fuck is this and that was it and i never realized i have been in the situation that i have seen people losing their kids mourning maybe definitely older kids but i'm like man this must be hard even though i can feel it at that moment i mean i don't you don't know like what could be your reaction you don't know i have been in the situation that i'm like bro

I don't cry. I never cry. I mean, not like I never cry, but it don't just happen. I don't know why. No, maybe because you don't have a reason. When you feel like something really hurt inside you, like you can't breathe, it's hurting. That was it. And when did this happen? April 27th. So this before the Joshua fight? No, after. After the Joshua fight? Yeah, April 27th.

Almost two months after. That was it. And then all of the sudden, you realize how a kid that wasn't there two years ago has become a major part of your life. Or if it's not your life. Then you realize that all the things that you were worrying about didn't mean shit at all. Nothing meant like nothing. It was the only thing at times that really mattered.

Yeah. But it's not there anymore. You know, one thing is that, you know, my dad passed away, um, I was 15 and he was, he got sick, just stay at home for like months and couldn't even go to the hospital and, uh, get to the point that he couldn't even go to the bathroom on his own. Nothing. But I was 15. I was still at school. You know, I always tell myself, like I was a kid, what could I have done? And then, uh,

After a couple of years, I left school and then I started thinking. I'm like, okay. I had an excuse when my dad passed away. I think I'm becoming an adult and I said, powerless, I still can't do anything if something like that happens. What happens if my mom gets sick? What happens if I have my own kids? Some days, and they need me, I will provide for them or protect them and

Those were one of the thoughts that I always have, like pushing me leaving. Like, no, I need to do something. I need to take action. Then, after years, you get to the point that you feel like you have it figured out. Like, okay, I can afford a health care for my family. I can take care if somebody needs to go to the hospital or whatever it is. I'm going to make it. I'm going to do it, you know.

Then all of a sudden, your own kid, which is the one that relies on you, only you, you couldn't even do anything for him. By the time he got to the hospital, he was gone. You couldn't fight for him. I'm like, bro, let me fight. Let me say I have tried. Let me say I did something. Let's make all this work together.

What's the point if after all this, I get to the point that I'm still this powerless in front of a real situation? And that's hurt. That's hurt a lot. I'm sorry to hear that, man. I can't imagine. I can't imagine. And it's also the pain of knowing there's nothing you could have done. It's just a medical thing that he was born with. Yeah, he was born with because...

because when it happens everybody was confused nobody knows so get home what should we do let's do an autopsy well that one was tough because you think that they say you know what that they're gonna tear him cut him cut his head like i mean a kid that yesterday you were going excited to talk to him now they are talking about like cut him this way this way

Like how come that is like? But you know, it's at least good to know what happened. Maybe that might save somebody in the future because he's still a mystery. So say, let's do the autopsy. That's way to find all this out. The last time I saw him was me leaving Cameroon, going to the elevator and he was with my little brother and

He didn't want me to go because he became my buddy so much that when I'm around, he don't want me to leave him alone. I can take him wherever I go. He might not have done it. He doesn't care as long as he's with me. That was it. He was my mate for 15 months. He's barely walking, but when I walked in,

You know that I walked in. They don't have to ask, like, who walked in? They know that it's his dad. You know, his reaction. Then you start to think about all those little things, all those little things that you guys have, just you and him. Then it's over. It's over. When it was the day that I was leaving, he was crying, like, wanted me to go with him.

But I kept going. I knew that I'm going to be back. I have no clue that that was it. I always say, I should have gone back one more time. Spend one more day, you know, hug him one more time. That was it. And then he get back in the apartment and see all his toys, the stuff that he was playing, the thing that you take from him the other day and put here, it's right there. But he's not there anymore.

i will never be there kobe kobe was his name i named him after kobe bryan because uh i had a great memory of kobe bryan the day that the usa was launching was announcing the partnership with body and more was in new york i just arrived in the us at time my english was so bad i'm in new york we have to met to meet in this room this event to make the announcement

And I'm there a little early. Then Kobe came a little early to meet me in the waiting room. Just Kobe and I there for like 30 minutes. My English is very bad. I'm embarrassed. I don't want to speak. And then he keep talking, asking questions, talk about my story. Ask me where I came from and how do I get. And I'm like, wow, this is impressive. I'm like, this is Kobe, right? I don't want to bother him. But he's questioning me.

really excited about it get me to talk then i feel bad i'm like oh no your english is really good i understand what you're saying and then how about this that like for 30 minutes until then they know why it was the next guy that walked in the room and he said wow do you know this guy's story do you know his story he did this he did that you know i said yes i know like wow this crazy it's crazy how we in america we don't know what's going around the world

And Kobe was there talking like that. I'm like, this is cool. So that was like my moment with Kobe. Wow. So when he passed out, when he died, I was in LA when I heard about the news and it hit me really bad. And I decided I'm going to make Kobe and have a Kobe. So that's it. The day that he passed away, just the day before,

They were just making a little basketball court that I have for him, his playground for him, you know, because I was so awake for him to start to be strong on his feet so we can go work, we can do this, we can play soccer. I've been looking for soccer clit for him, this, that, you know, you have all the projects.

I have thought of like, which school should he go? Like think, oh, what should I do? You know, you never know. Maybe something happened to me. I should set up something to keep him safe. You know, you think like that. But no, it never crossed your mind that he would be the one leaving. From the moment that he was born, no, like when he was born, when he started to react and you really see like a living person,

you really start to plan out like how to protect him how to build a security around him you know he he wasn't just a kid he was a project he became a huge project everything that you think of that's good that you want oh he's for kobe he's for him then he's gone you've been through a lot in your life francis yeah you've been through a lot a lot of people been through it you didn't just know

Then after that, you look at people that have been through, that lost a kid. You respect them more. You give them some more respect. Like my older brother lost two kids. And I feel so bad not really being there for him because I didn't understand. I know that he lost kids, but I didn't know what exactly that means. Now that I understand, I'm like, man, I should have been there more.

I feel bad that I didn't connect to his suffering, to his pain. And you respect him more for being through that, to overcome that twice. Then you start to think like, no. In fact, I think I'm not the toughest one, though. I'm being put in a test, realize that I'm not as tough as I think. There's nothing anybody can say. That's the craziest thing. There's no comfort that anybody can give you.

if they I mean if they ask you what do you want or how what can comfort you you don't know so it's nothing it's really it's really about like facing it daily you know take it one at a time do you have other children yeah I have another girl I have another girl but when it happened like that you feel like

I don't know, even though in your mind, you think you still have a lot going on, a lot of things to be grateful about, but in your heart, you feel like you're broke. You have nothing. Nothing is worth it. I mean, I always love life. I know that I have everything of society, but at least for once, I'm like, at least whenever I die, I'm going to go see my kid. I'm going to see him.

I'm not afraid of it. I still want to live, but at least whenever, you know, you get to that point, to think like that. So, somewhere you're looking forward for whenever that happens. I'm very sorry for your loss, man. I really am. I wish I could say something, but there's nothing to say. There's nothing to say, Joe. Thank you, though. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here, man. Thank you for everything. You're an inspirational man. You really are. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Appreciate you being here and best of luck to you in everything in life. We will see. That's why I really want to come back and do something. Because I really think maybe I should. I get to the point that I'm like, why do I fight for? I don't even have to. I don't want. But bro, that boy for only 15 months, I think...

He taught me something, you know, like he was active, full of life. And I think if there's one thing that he would have been doing, he would have been doing something. Not staying there, not being a reason of giving up or whatever. And I think that's the only way to honour him, his memory, keep him alive, get a purpose, make him a motivation.

I think so. We will see. We will see how it plays out. Again, thank you, Francis. Thank you for being here, man. I really appreciate you. Thank you, Joe. All right. Bye, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Kitanica.

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