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And so I always wonder what
keeps people, like, there's the shame on the woman's side after realizing that the act has happened, but I think that men do have a lot of shame around it as well, and they don't talk about it, which is why they hide and they lie, and then it just snowballs. Shame is such a, I feel like shame is one of the biggest threats to a healthy relationship, because I think when people have a lot of shame and guilt around things, whether it's from their past or whether about things they've done in a present relationship,
People's behavior really changes when they're trying to navigate through shame. Welcome to Cultural Collision: Beiqiao Namdiao. I'm EJ. I'm Victoria. Today, we're going to delve into a topic that explores diverse formats of love and the variety of relationships that we all find ourselves in, in addition to the art of engaging in tough conversations with your partner.
We'll navigate the challenges of expressing ourselves authentically without causing harm or misunderstanding. Join us as we uncover valuable insights and practical tips on navigating the intricate landscapes of love and communication. Should we do a check-in? Should we say, like, what is our relationship status right now? I would say for me, it's complicated. I don't know if people...
Well, there used to be on social media where on Facebook you could put like what your social status was and it was like single or married or whatever. So I would say for me right now, I'm, it's in a bit of a complicated place.
I can go into that a little bit later. But I don't know. Maybe we can start with what type of relationship person are you? Or what type of relationship or relationships have you had?
tried or been a part of. I think like what you just mentioned, I totally agree. Because I think for 10 years ago, or like maybe five years ago, when people start a relationship, they start with the conversation, they maybe have dating like several times where like on their first date, they decide to ask, do you want to be my girlfriend or boyfriend? But nowadays, people intend to avoid those questions.
and people just like we hang out together we're dating several times and just like keep dating and never talk about is this an exclusive relationship because i know like that there's a term is very popular early last year is about like situationship i think that explains a lot things right like we don't start with exclusive or serious relationship and also for nowadays people are so scared of like serious relationship
If they hear about this war, right? And they were just like, step back. That's exactly what I was going to say. I feel like people hear the word relationship and it's such a loaded word, right? Like depending on what your past relationships are like, what your current relationship is like, what your, maybe what your parents' relationship was like and seeing that, like everyone's understanding of what a relationship is, is so different. But I think for most people, when they hear the word relationship, they think like, ah,
ah, like serious, like commitment, like maybe being tied down, less freedom or less opportunities to sort of like be the person that you want to be. And it's interesting. I wonder why...
For so many people, that's like the default, as opposed to seeing a relationship as being like something that's fun and exciting and rewarding. I think there's all of that trepidation and fear behind not even being in the relationship. I think just like talking about it is a lot for people. I don't know. Are you someone who finds yourself intimidated or put off by the idea of a sort of a serious, committed relationship?
exclusive relationship. I mean, I understand like if we are talking, having this conversation on like during our first days, we're like just being together at a very early stage. And I started to talk about like, I want a serious relationship. And the guy will be like, wow, let's hold on. Let's take a pause or something like that. But I also find if we don't start this relationship at a really like, we talk about this in a proper way. And
mostly I think the relationship is going to end in a bad way. And then that's when you have the problem. But also I feel like it's also good if you say in front what you want out of this relationship. Maybe you just want to have fun. That's totally okay. But like most people are just really hard, especially like using dating apps. So like that's how we meet people. And when we talk to people offline and
It's really hard to explain, but like the one of the benefits I think for dating app is like that you can show what you want. But sometimes I just feel like I put it on. I don't know. But I will say, I don't know. Doesn't mean I want to be hooked up. Right. People think you put, I don't know, because you just want to have sex. Yeah. I think that's also like a way of different between men and women. Hmm.
That's such an interesting point that you bring up, like the language that people use, right? I think that that can be true. When I ask my friends, I actually love doing dating profiles and like putting up bios. I don't know, maybe it's because of my job and I have to help people like talk about themselves so much.
But I always find it interesting when I ask my friends, I say, I will help you edit your profile. I will help you figure out the wording. And they're always like, oh, I don't know what to say. And I'm like, girl, why are you on a dating app? You don't even know anything.
You know, because the problem is, is they get scared. They say, well, I don't want to put on here. I don't know what I want yet. Because the assumption is, is that, well, if you don't know what you want, that means you don't want something serious. And for whatever reason, the assumption is if you don't want something serious, then that means you only want to be involved in hookup culture. Isn't true. Maybe someone just needs time to figure it out. Maybe people don't have the language to describe what type of relationship that they want. But I've always found that...
I've probably in the last year, I've probably asked five friends like to help them with their profiles. And like every single one of them was like, I don't even know what I would start with to say about myself. I'm like, that's, it's always interesting to me. Well, I'm curious, like those five friends of yours after you help them to updating their profile, are they like have any like in a relationship? So I know one is actively dating now.
I know that the other is not actively dating as much right now. I don't know why. I think personal job things. The other friend of mine, I think, is actually done something I thought that was really, really good. And what she told me was, is that,
I asked her, what type of relationship do you want to be in? Like, what do you envision yourself doing with this person? And she said that like, I really want someone who we can like spend the day doing spontaneous things and, you know, going to a museum and then to a cafe and like spending the whole day. And I was like, I don't think most people on a dating app say things like that. Like, oh, I want someone who we can spend an entire day in a museum and a cafe bouncing around. And I was like, you should just put exactly that in there.
And she was nervous because it felt like she was looking for a friend. But I'm like, if you want to be in a relationship with someone who is your friend who also wants to go to museums, then, like, that's what you have to say. So I should actually follow up with her and ask her if she's found someone to go to museums with. But...
It definitely took some digging. I mean, we had to like have a couple of conversations for her to be able to say, like, I remember she told me one of the best dates that she had was that some guy just like took her around town and they just did a bunch of things spontaneously. And she was like, I would love to be able to do that more often with someone. As opposed to worrying about like,
or are we having kids? Or, you know, like a lot of people talk about traveling, right? Everyone has their own thing. But it definitely took some reflection for us to get there. Yeah. Which made me thinking like, I think it's very, you will be very fortunate to date someone you see in,
him or her as your good friend because it's not only like love you can talk to talk to them about all the things happen in your life you treat them as a good friend and only good friend can make this relationship last long because we all know like love is just about like
At the beginning, when you feel excited, you feel like something changed in your the chemistry is there, but it cannot last long. So only thing it lasts long as you like you have the very good relationship as a friend, as a family, as a lover. And and then was like, what's wrong with having a good friend, and also as a partner?
I remember there's one interesting question. We also had a Christmas party on Friday night. And then we were just sitting around and people were like, people asked me, they said, Victoria, you asked questions because you're a podcast host and you ask controversial questions. So I asked them one question is, what do you appreciate most about me?
a partner or if you are in a relationship what do you appreciate most about your partner? That's a good question. I think for me the things that I have appreciated the most in partners in the past particularly ones that I relationships that I thought were like the healthiest was having an emotional safe place
Like, I feel like my partners in the past who I really... The ones that, like, for example, I still think about are the ones that felt... Made me feel like I could just completely show up as myself. I didn't have to pretend. I didn't have to put on a mask. Yeah.
you know, which I find is really important as someone who's queer. Like we always have to pretend we're always unsure, like who is it safe to be ourself around? And so being in a relationship with someone who just sees you and accepts you for who you are, flaws and all, for me is really big. I mean, the other stuff is really nice too, but I think for me, if I feel like I can't show up as myself,
then I don't the relationship doesn't work. So having someone who feels like a safe place has always been the thing that I value most in a partner. What about you? Yeah, that's interesting. Because like, I remember the conversation I had was with like, three, three girls, me plus three girls and four guys. So there are a couple of girls like their answer is about like, the state stability.
the partner offers and always respect always like support them always be there like the stable relationship that's they appreciate most for me I my answer is like I really appreciated a partner who respect me as who I am it doesn't have to be you agree with everything I say you agree with who I am as a person I also of course I have like strengths have weakness I have like
flaws, right? You don't have to agree with everything, but you accept me and also respect me as who I am. Of my dream, my weakness. I think that's very important to me. And also very interesting that guys, when they share what makes them most appreciated for their partner, so they said it's the space. They want the space. They don't want to be together all the time. They want to have their own time. And
Also, their partner can make them feel comfortable. I think what we men and women, when we try to think about this, we have very different answers. We have very different perspectives on this. That's very interesting. I'm reading this book now. I'm listening to it. It's an audio book. And I started it yesterday. And it's called The Will to Change. And it's like men, masculinity, and love. And it talks about why...
men in society like struggle so much with love and like understanding love and actually loving people. So I'm only a couple chapters in, so I haven't gotten that far, but I'll be very curious to see. It's written by a woman. It's written by a female feminist. And so I'm curious to see how they, what is their understanding of like the differences between what males and females or people want in a relationship? Because I don't know, sometimes as someone who
tries to like break down the binary of like men think this way and women think this way, because sometimes I think that like at the end of the day, a relationship is just a relationship, right? Whether it's romantic or a friendship or relationship at your job. But of course, like the way that we are socialized, right? There are certain things that the way that I think that I learned, you know, from conversations, for example, with my dad, right?
that were conversations that my sisters probably never had with my dad in the same way that my mom probably had a lot of conversations with my mom about what it meant for her to be a young woman and, you know, going out and trying to date or be in relationships with people.
So I'm curious, like, what's your ideal relationship? And like, how did you, like, where did you learn or what influences how you shape that ideal? Like, was it movies? Was it, you know, past relationships you've had? Was it, you know, things that you've read? I'm curious, like, how did you formulate what you wanted in a relationship? I think my ideal relationship is we both love
grow together and we learn from each other. We can make each other a better person and we are the best friend in our life. It sounds like very unrealistic, but I think I learned from my past relationships and that's my like very ideal relationship. I always think about, you know, I definitely want to be in a relationship with someone who's a friend. I just find that like friendships are the most enduring relationships that I've had. And so I,
Being able to be friends with someone. And more. To me. Is ideal. Yeah. I would say. I also find it's very difficult. Do you feel like. Even though. We treat our partner. As a good friend. As a friendship. It's also like. Friendship plus relationship. But sometimes. It's really hard. To have like. To take. The honest. Conversation. Or tough conversation. With them. For me. I don't have this problem. With talking to my friends. Even though. I know it's a tough conversation. But.
It's not as tough as I talk to a partner. I don't know if you feel the same. Yeah, I actually have to have a tough conversation with someone who I'm dating now. So it's an interracial situation. And it's complicated on a lot of different levels because he's married.
And they are sort of in an open marriage. They date separately. And I have to have a conversation with him about just race and sort of racial dynamics and how those come up. Because I think that he grew up in a part of the state that is very, very, very conservative. Yeah.
And the way that people talk, like people use the N-word a lot, like white people use the N-word a lot. And it's like uncomfortable. And he's like, I grew up around people like that. And like everyone thought it was okay. And he's not that person. He's like, that's why I left that. He's like, I don't live there. I don't like travel back there a lot because of that. But still, like someone like me, it's like even if you don't live in that, right? Like you can't just like shake that.
the experiences that you had as a kid and those things that influence you so easily. Right. And so like, I, just for my own sanity, I'm like, we have to have a conversation about that because I have to trust that that's not something that is still a part of who you are or that when you go back home, you act one way, but when you're with me, it's a different way. Like that makes me uncomfortable, but it's a difficult conversation to have because I
I know that depending on how this conversation goes, it could make or break whether or not we continue to date. I like spending time with a person, but I find that like, I don't know, I have this fear. I don't know if it's like a fear of rejection or if it's a fear of abandonment. And so because of that, I'm a little conflict adverse. Like I don't like conflict. I avoid conflict when I can't.
But like, this is something that I can't avoid. But it stresses me out. Like, it's been on my mind for the last month.
So yeah, it's really hard to have tough conversations, particularly because I think that I get nervous what happens if it escalates and goes out of control, you know? I totally feel you. The different thing, I also want to avoid conflict. I think it's hard conversation. I don't know where is this goes. But the other thing I feel is also because we are grow up in a very different background and how the world around us shape
our view of how we see this world very differently. And people have very strong mindset. It's really hard to change. And sometimes it's really hard to communicate with. So talking to a friend, because we sometimes we are, even though we're best friends, we're very close. We don't have to agree with each other.
but in a relationship we tend to ask our partner to agree with us or to accept this concept we're bringing in front of him so that's the hard part and we see things this way and they see things the other way and it's really hard to change people's view people's point and i also know like we shouldn't change anyone because it's
it's really hard. Like we are in our thirties. We grow up because we've seen a lot. We experienced a lot. And that's how us see the world, which also thinks like makes me think one question I want to ask. What's the deal breaker for you? Okay. I have, I have two right now that come to mind. There are deal breakers, like major red flags for me. One is just what I was talking about before is race. Like, I think that like, if we aren't on the same page about sort of race,
racial issues racial dynamics that for me is very much a red flag yeah that's just not works the other big thing for me is violence like anger issues um I yeah having grown up in a house where themes were often resolved in like rage or anger or in like violence that's something that like
I can't deal with at all. Yeah, it doesn't work with me. And I think that's hard because I have found that a lot of men, as someone who's attracted to men, a lot of men have issues like processing anger and rage and things like that. And it often comes out in violent ways. So, and violent doesn't necessarily always mean like
physical violence, right? It could be emotional, right? It could be financial, like there's so many sort of power dynamics. So for me, those are probably the two biggest red flags. Those are things that I look out for very, very early on in people. What about you? For me, what I can think of like number one is cheating. So that's definitely my deal breaker. I can think of a lot, but I've realized that we compromise a lot in relationship. So
So when we think this is our deal breaker, but it doesn't really, it's the reason we broke up with the other person. There are a lot of things can be deal breaker, but just like one hard line for me is cheating.
Because for now, we're still just in a relationship. We don't know if this is going to last long. We don't know if this is the right person. So if the really deal breaker or like red flags appears, and then we realize, oh, we might not continue this relationship.
But for other people, it's very difficult. It's very sad because I know a lot of friends around me. Some are my close friends. Some are not that close. I just heard this conversation or heard this story is people get married and the husband cheated on the wife. And they're in a very bad situation and they need to continue the family war. They need to solve this situation. That would always make me
feel very bad very bad for people like for people in the marriage who have to go through this yeah i cheating used to be a deal breaker for me because my parents are divorced and part of the reason why they got divorced is because there was an affair an extramarital affair and so for a really long time i was like oh like i couldn't do it i was like it's so wrong and
And I still think that. I still think it's wrong. I think if you are in a relationship and you have, you've agreed on boundaries and you overstep those boundaries, that is always, always wrong. I think that I've grown in that, like, I think part of the reason why I'm open to different types of relationships now that aren't strictly monogamous is
It's because I think that, like, I have this fear still that, like, at the end of the day, if someone wants to cheat, they are going to cheat on you, even if you're married, even if you have kids. And so I'd rather be in a relationship with someone where we say from the beginning that, like, I'm okay with us having a non-monogamous relationship if that's what we both want.
Right. Because to me, I mean, this could be completely wrong logic. But in my mind, if you go into an agreement that we can both sustain an open relationship. Now, obviously, there's a lot of extra work that goes into that communication and you have to work on trust and jealousy and all of that. But in my mind, it prevents me from having to experience what my experience my parents went through with their sort of cheating scandal.
Because I've put myself in a position where at least that type of cheating couldn't occur to me. I can get hurt in other ways, but I don't want to be hurt by someone cheating. I'd rather you just go and do it and you tell me. Right? Does that make more sense? But the shame and like people don't do it. So, yeah, cheating is tough, particularly with kids.
marriage and kids involved. Because I think people assume that they have to, I don't know, stay together and figure things out for the kids. And sometimes I wonder if that's the best thing to do. You know, speaking of cheating, I always noticed there's a one phenomena. I don't know if it happens to men, but happens to women. If her boyfriend or husband is
cheated on her she feel ashamed of talking about it i mean she did nothing wrong but this behavior makes her think because she's not attractive enough because she's not good enough that's why
The man cheated on her. But honestly, that's not the situation. Just like you said, no matter how good you are, no matter how sexy, no matter how great you are as a person, this person is going to cheat anyway. And how we treat, I think for relationship and marriage are very different thing. I read this very interesting article
way to explain marriage. Marriage is more like the format of marriage is to keep the society stable. You as a family to make another generation to make the society stable. Because if nobody get married, then the society won't be a mess.
people sleep around and being irresponsible. And that's very interesting, like, theory. Because if you step into a marriage, then you know, you have the conception of, you know how this is going to look like. And there will be people have
cheated whether in their sexual cheated on you or just like psychologically cheated on you so it's different that's also very different like from how we see marriage yeah yeah I resonate with a lot of what you're saying particularly about the shame piece yeah I mean like hearing friends talk about that that's what happens they spiral they're like oh my god I must have done something wrong and
And I listened to this podcast called Where Should We Begin? It's another podcast and it's hosted by a woman named Esther Perel. And she's a psychotherapist and she specializes in relationships. And a lot of the episodes focus on people who are going through infidelity and just how difficult that is. And what's always so interesting is that when, if it's the male that has cheated, it's always like...
I feel like the reasons behind it are so, like, you could have just said something. And so I always wonder what
keeps people like there's the shame on the woman's side after realizing that the act has happened. But I think that men do have a lot of shame around it as well. And they don't talk about it, which is why they hide and they lie. And then it just snowballs. Shame is such a, I feel like shame is one of the biggest threats to a healthy relationship. Because I think when people have a lot of shame and guilt around things, whether it's from their past or whether about things they've done in a present relationship, it's
it um people's behavior really changes when they're trying to navigate through shame i wish i actively knew how to help uh someone feel like they don't have to have shame around certain things right because oftentimes you don't know what your partner has shame about right
it comes out in weird ways. I don't know. Have you experienced much shame personally in any of your relationships? Yeah, when I talk to people, I feel like I can feel the shame. But I think I am doing a very good job to accept people when they talk about the things they're not proud of. Because I think the very important factor in this is you have to be open-minded to everything they talk to you. Otherwise, if you expose yourself
I think shame also means like vulnerability. If you'll be vulnerable to talk to the things you are not proud of, the things you feel shame about. If you receive a different feedback from the other person, you will feel being attacked. And then you'll start to protect yourself. And that's conversation ends, right? And you never talk about things make you vulnerable, make you shame again.
So how the other person receive this information, how they react on this is very important. I think for this, it's also like, I also like the people, I think the characters I love for a partner, I wish this person can be, have empathy, have the same, really understand you. They can understand, even they don't understand, they also give you a very positive
gentle feedback or gentle react to things you say in front of them like when you feel so shamed about and you feel so uncomfortable to talk about yeah it's not only one person you know i recently had a conversation with a friend this past week about this very thing we were having some issues around like miscommunications
And because of the miscommunications, we would get like upset at each other. And then we like wouldn't message each other for a really long time. And he told me, he was like, hey, like here, I should explain, give a little context. If I'm anxious, like I tend to like over-communicate.
If I'm anxious because I'm like, okay, like, did I not explain myself well enough? Like, why aren't you responding? Like what's going on? Like, maybe I should ask you in a different way or maybe I should give you context. And so I do a lot of that. And then you have to imagine like,
For someone who maybe is open-minded, but is less open in terms of communicating their feelings, when someone throws a lot of feelings at them, it's really overwhelming for them. And so he told me, he was like, I need you to tell me, like, when are you just venting? And like, when is it a serious conversation that we need to have? And like, when are you just being silly? Because he's like, sometimes I can't tell.
And he's like, I don't know what to do. And it's funny because like we've known each other for so long, like 10 years. And this is the first time that we've been like, hmm, you know what?
The way that we communicate with each other sometimes isn't working. But you know, the reason why we both didn't bring it up is because we both had shame around it. We were both afraid of hurting the other person's feelings, right? We were both afraid of our intentions being misunderstood. So it's hard. I have found that in those situations, like, I have to like write out a script, right?
for myself because otherwise my brain will just go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And I'll like get off track. But I'm very appreciative that we were able to have that difficult conversation because honestly, I think because of it, like the relationship that we will have moving forward will be even stronger. Yeah, I totally agree with like going
going down with a script because every time I want to talk very serious things and then because we only discuss the first thing in my mind right we go to different topics we go to different scenarios we go to different other difficult things in our life and then we got distracted by the other two three four things we're on the list so that conversation is not really
deep conversation, a really conversation. We want to go through all the things in my mind. When you think about the next relationship that you want to be in, if you want to be in a relationship or even in relationships that are maybe currently ongoing, what is something that you think you will want to do differently? Or what is something that you want to maybe take from a previous relationship that you think can benefit
And a future one. I think what I would do differently is be myself at the beginning. When we meet someone new, whether it's a friend or like in a relationship, we tend to agree with everything. Tend to say yes with everything. We discussed this before, like saying no is very difficult for us. So, but it also is a very bad habit. Because the other person, they really don't know what's your standard.
You are saying yes to everything. They think you're like very tolerable person. But you know, you have you have the you have the baseline. And sometimes like because we are just in a unstable relationship and we tend to say yes to everything. And and with time passed by, it's really it's becoming really hard to say no.
And also the conversation, I think the hard, hard conversation should come in the first. If we really disagree with things, it's going to happen in our life. We talk in the beginning.
Because then we realize, okay, this is really not the right person. Oh, okay. This is the serious problem we need to solve. Otherwise, I don't see us in the future. Yeah, that seems I will change. How about you? Definitely agree. I definitely want to show up as myself from the beginning. It's so hard to do. It's so scary to be that.
type of vulnerable in the beginning. And it's not vulnerable, like I'm telling you all of my like super personal things, but it's just like, I don't know how I've gotten to a place where just being myself is so hard to do in this context, right? So I definitely agree with that. If there's anything else I would do differently, I think I have a habit of
saying no to the things that I want because I'm afraid of having the thing that I set myself out to get when it comes to a romantic partner. So by that, I mean like I might meet someone who has a lot of the characteristics that I like, or they might be, I don't know, really interested in me. And for whatever reason, those things make me uncomfortable. So I self-sabotage. And so I think I would be more accepting of
Of those things. In the future. Even if they're scary. Right. Like I have to be able to. Do things afraid. I think what we talked about being ourselves at the beginning. Is not to. Be very sharing very personal. Stories with each other. Or even like.
sharing who we are as a, how to say it, something like we, for example, we fart in front of the other person at the beginning. It's not like that. It's just, of course, everybody wants to share their best part in front of the stranger. But what we really want to do is don't be afraid to say your true opinion, especially like in evolves like relationship, how you see these things where like, if you both experience something
a friend's relationship or even like you both experience something worth to talk about it express your truly self I think that's very important to let other person know you from all different different perspective or small things what the things doesn't really happen to between you and the other person it can happen to the things around you when you share this story with your partner
Then you can talk, what's your opinion about this, right? Then show you really who you are. And then this is like, we can start from small. Yeah. We don't have to be agree with everything your partner say. I'm wondering, we've talked a bit about sort of deal breakers and red flags. I'm wondering for you, what are some of the green flags or like the really the positive things that you look for in a partner that,
you want and might help you more easily show up as yourself from the get go. That's a good one. I think you mentioned also the anger, anger issue. I think for that is there's a term is very popular is emotional stable. So whatever happened, right? We all have different emotions. Emotional stable doesn't mean you can be angry with everything where you can be just peacefully accept everything. But when the things happens, it's,
you can calm down and you know how to solve the problem instead of just yelling at each other. So I think emotional stable is very important. And the second one, I think is gentle, open-minded.
With everything happened to your life, with people in your different, I don't want to say level. I think people are all on the same level, but we have different background. With how you treat the rich people and how you treat the poor people. Be open-minded, be gentle, be nice to people. I think that's a very good point.
characteristics I valued I really like gentle I think that's really nice it makes me yeah I think that's a really good one I look for if I'm looking like specifically for myself like super specific things I would say humor is big for me I really like I mean you know I love to laugh laughing is just so important to me so having a sense of humor it doesn't mean that like you tell jokes or
or that like you are necessarily a funny person, that would be great. But I think someone who's good humored is really important. Like someone who has a good sense of humor. This might seem silly, but I'm really attracted to people who are like musical or creative in some way. I think like creative energy is really important to me.
I do a lot of music. And even though I don't work in a creative field, I like to think relatively creatively. I don't know. I just think that the perspective that a creative has on the world and their outlook on life is just so different from mine. So I appreciate that. I don't know. The last thing, this is silly, but someone who sees like food, particularly the communal aspect of that is like an experience.
Like food in my family is like so important. And it's a way of showing love. It's a way of showing that you care for someone. It's a way of doing things for people. So yeah, someone who...
I know that sounds so similar. I can cook. So I don't want someone to confess it. But like someone who like, yeah, enjoys food, right? I think is important because not even just me, like my whole family, like food and meals are very, very important to us. Also, someone should appreciate if you are cooking for them. I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation we had this time. Remember, exploring the complexity of love and communication can lead to profound growth.
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