Alexandra Rose Howland - On Storytelling
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Make the holidays merrier by gifting smarter at 1-800-Flowers.com slash ACAST. That's 1-800-Flowers.com slash ACAST. Alexandra Rose Howland's practice is invested in illustrating the difficult complexities of our existence. Through her work, she seeks to generate a more expansive understanding of how issues like conflict and the climate crisis are portrayed. ♪

She does this by resisting the historical notion of photography as a mode of direct representation created by a single author. Instead, she embraces image-making as a social practice, co-creating stories with her participants.

The result is projects like Leave It and Let Us Go, an ecosystem of visual material that embraces nuance, depth, contradiction and multiple subjectivities, creating a richer and more complex approach to storytelling. As a photographer, you have such power over how someone is portrayed. And as soon as you show these glimpses of the other moments, the whole narrative can change. I'm Jen Fletcher, and this is The Messy Truth, Conversations on Photography.

Alexandra Rose Howland is an experimental visual artist currently based in Greece. She spent the last decade living in the Middle East, creating work that aims to challenge and expand the ways that geopolitical events are communicated. Her

Her background as an abstract painter informs her practice, resulting in these multi-dimensional works that use images, found objects, interviews and video. She is shown internationally in both solo and group exhibitions and her book Leave It and Let Us Go was published by GOST in 2021.

So I wanted to start off by talking about how you came to photography because that was via studying abstract painting and international relations. And your career as a painter was really taking off when you pivoted to photography. Could you take us back to that time and tell us a little bit about that decision to change direction? Yeah, definitely. It was a combination of a few different things that all seemed to happen very, very quickly. I had been preparing for a painting show recently

And, you know, had been locked away and I was living in Los Angeles. I'd been locked away in my studio for probably months, not seeing anyone and just painting. And we were sort of getting ready for this exhibition. And the curator turns around and was like, it's time to now sell all of the shit that you've just been doing. And I was just like, really? Like, this is such a strange moment.

moment to be having right now. Like I've just poured my soul into this work and, you know, I think I was so young and naive that the commercialization of these things and, you know, that whole business side was, um,

new to me. So that happened. And then I also went to this sort of presentation by Seven Agency. And yeah, it really felt like it was just time to make a shift and sort of get out of

you know, this sort of bubble that Los Angeles can very easily become. And yeah, within about three weeks of that show, I had packed up my apartment and my life in LA, dropped it at my mom's house and was basically headed to Turkey. So why Turkey? Because that was kind of a spontaneous decision in some ways as well.

Yeah. So during this sort of like three weeks of chaos, when I was leaving, I had met with an LA Times editor to just be like, can I do this? Like, you know, I had taken maybe a handful of photos in my entire life. And I was meeting with this editor being like, do you think that this is a really good idea for me to do this?

And the first thing he said was like, why are you quitting painting for photography? That's a terrible idea, which then, of course, incentivized me to do, you know, to continue on that path. But he had basically suggested to choose a place where I could learn from other people.

And Turkey, I knew I wanted to be somewhere international. I knew I wanted to be somewhere sort of adjacent to the Middle East and somewhere where there were people that I could really learn from and reach out to. And Istanbul at that time was, you know, this pocket of journalists. And I mean, some of the most amazing journalists were based out of Istanbul while I was there. So it was really like a place that I could go and learn the craft and

As I had no experience at all. And what initially drew you to photojournalism? And then inevitably, why did it end up not being the right fit? So I studied international relations and fine art in university with a focus on peace and conflict. So I was always...

very intrigued by the sort of conflict and post-conflict space. I always had wanted to find a way to sort of integrate that. But then with painting, it was such a, you know, I didn't know how you could combine these two such vastly different sort of concepts. And photojournalism really felt to be this meeting of the two worlds. And it just, I mean, it just felt like it really clicked.

And as I learned more about the field and how challenging it is and how limiting it can be, and that you just need this very, very specific way of working that I just didn't really felt was authentic to myself. Yeah, I sort of learned that I needed to back away from the strict photojournalism

viewpoint and sort of see how I could bring a more creative approach, I guess. Yeah. In 2017, you ended up moving to Iraq where you made your first sort of body of work, Mosul Road, 88 kilometers, which is this really staggering project. Could you tell us about the concept and kind of how all of those things came into being? Yeah.

So Mosul Road, 88 kilometers, is a single massive panoramic image, like actually 88 kilometers. And it connects Erbil, which is the last city in Iraq to have avoided capture by ISIS.

with West Mosul, where al-Baghdadi declared the caliphate. And so sort of referencing back to my LA days, I was looking towards Edruche's Sunset Boulevard and how this one image could really connect an entire street. So I took it to sort of a larger scale and

Yeah, it's a really sort of powerful project. It was a really important moment for me in my work and difficult in terms of logistics and everything.

you know, perseverance and all of these things. And I don't really think that I knew what I was getting into when I started it. But I thought that this, you know, we have such a strong perception of what conflict is and what war looks like. And this one image has really been pushed into our minds through media. And I wanted a way to sort of intervene within that narrative and try and just

you know, connect everything else that's happening besides that one shot that you're shown. Like really show all of the different layers of

that come with conflict. Yeah, you mentioned then the logistics and the process was so intense in terms of you spending three weeks on top of a car making images every three seconds. I mean, talk to us about that. What was that like? I can't even imagine it, to be honest. Yeah, I don't think that I really thought it through before doing it.

So I basically contacted a fixer and pitched this idea. And he was like, yeah, it's fine. Just come. We'll figure it out. I didn't know if I could actually trust that he would be able to pull this off or that I would be able to pull it off. But I ended up sitting on the top of his Land Cruiser like a

These big massive white SUVs sitting outside the sunroof with my tripod and, you know, my flak jacket and all of these things like balancing on top of the roof and literally just going down the road 15 kilometers an hour and take an image every three seconds roughly. And yeah, I mean, the logistics of doing it are just so ridiculous looking back. I think my naivety going into it was probably what enabled the project to actually happen.

Because, I mean, people thought that I was a spy. They thought I was like mapping the street. They thought all of these things. And then, you know, it's a question of getting through. How do you get through checkpoints? Like these are there's checkpoints along this road.

you know, constantly and you're never allowed to photograph a checkpoint. So how do you get those sorts of permissions? And then once I was actually in Mosul, I mean, you have the issues of, you know, the drones flying over you. ISIS was using these drones to drop bombs on different communities and villages. And, you know, there were moments that I had like drones flying above me and we'd had to, you know, divert and run out of the car and try and like hide in different areas. And

And then once you're actually on the front line, you know, I was doing it from within a Humvee. So you're trying to balance, you know, your tripod and you have all of these soldiers and there's no space. And yeah, it was, I mean, it was extremely, extremely difficult. And I think I did...

I did the whole road probably four or five times and then actually did the very last section because I wanted it to go to Illinois Mosque, which is exactly where Baghdadi declared the caliphate. I wanted that to be the end. And so I couldn't actually get there until the war was over because it was the last sort of stronghold of ISIS. And so it's also got, along with sort of changing the proximity and changing traditions,

the understanding of what war looks like. It also plays with this concept of time and access and the boring side of everything. Yeah, I mean, it's just such an incredible body of work. And what I love is how...

It focuses on people as much as place. It's really avoiding the spectacle of war and instead conveying this more sort of rounded picture of life in conflict, which can shift between violence and destruction to things that are utterly normal and kind of banal.

But I guess what strikes me with this work is that it feels like such a defining moment for you as an artist in better understanding how you could engage with the political storytelling you were interested in investigating. Definitely. It completely changed the way that I understand photography in a way. Like as a photojournalist, you know, you'll throw away 99% of the photos where someone's staring back at you.

And within this project, I'm sitting on top of a car like a moron in a conflict zone. Of course, people are going to be staring at me and yelling at me and, you know, trying to get my attention. And so a lot of the images have those moments in it.

And so I was really having to reconcile, you know, at first I was like, how, how do I make myself disappear? But then, you know, that goes into the whole conversation of like, is a photographer supposed to be a fly on the wall? You know, how much is their gaze influencing the image, et cetera, et cetera. So there was all these different aspects to it that I was trying to reconcile and, you know, embracing, you

that moment of interaction between myself and the subject while also having this space and this lack of my gaze curating the moment in front of me that's then being shared with the audience. That was a really important thing. And then also it gave me the confidence to continue to do this type of work because I

I'd come home after a day out in the field and we're all sitting, all the other journalists and I are sitting around having dinner or drinks, whatever,

And you're all sharing the stories from that day that you got or the access that you managed to get, etc. And then I'm sitting there being like, yeah, I was sitting on top of a car again. People were not really thrilled about it. And I was taking up fixers times that they wanted to be working with for this project that no one really understood. And so having the confidence to really push forward

through it and to believe in what I was doing, despite being the only person

quote-unquote artist that was working in this space of journalism. I think that that's a lesson that's really stuck with me over the last few years. One thing that I think is really important to mention is that this is not just about stepping back and including lots of different perspectives. It's also about questioning the role of photography in conflict itself, right? It's definitely about questioning the role that images can play with and the impact that they have. I think photojournalism has...

And it's extremely important. You know, the images of conflict have sort of defined our knowledge and understanding of history. But at the same time, it's one very specific lens. And I just think it's so important to back up and to be considering conflict.

you know, the different ways that images function and my specific role in it, including my perspective within the work to an extent, while also counteracting it, you know, at the same time. I think with photojournalism now, it's becoming an issue that you can't really tell the difference between one conflict and another because all of the images look the same. You know, we have the same visual experience

language. And we're so adept at understanding it now that we don't even notice it in a way. And I think it's really important as an artist, as a journalist, as a photographer, whatever you identify as, to be aware of that and to be trying to bring a different understanding of

to the audience. It's a really fascinating topic. And I guess it kind of leads us really nicely into the next iteration of this work was Leave and Let Us Go, which is this collaborative body of work that creates a kind of portrait of a country through mobile phone images, born out of a conversation you had with an Iraqi soldier. Could you tell us a little bit about

that initial conversation and how the project was kind of born? After I finished Mosul Road, I loved living in Iraq. I loved being there. I wanted to continue to learn how to work in an area of conflict. So by that time, I was permanently living there and sort of working more within the photojournalism world. And I ended up embedded with the Iraqi army. And one of the soldiers, he didn't speak any English. I don't speak any Arabic.

And so he was sharing just images on his phone. He was swiping through his wife, his children, his girlfriend, his kills from that day, what he made for dinner and his gun collection type thing. And it was just this really eye-opening sort of moment of there's such a limited understanding of what I am.

What I have, like I, I'm never going to be able to properly show this person's world and it's, it's doing a disservice to,

to only show what's right in front of me. How do I engage all of the rest of these things that's happening behind the scenes? Because that all informs the rest of it. And so I ended up asking if I could download these images. And I think I only took like 20 or 30 of his photos. He said yes, for whatever reason. He probably thought I was insane. And they sat on my computer for

probably the next six to eight months without me touching them, without really understanding why I had done that. And...

Then the project really sort of grew from there. And since, you know, since that moment, I've now collected over 350,000 images and videos from well over 50 people from across the country, from all different ages, backgrounds, you know, religious groups, economic status, et cetera, to really try and show this broader understanding of

of what Iraq is and an understanding of a country that I can never really access as a foreigner. One of the really fascinating things about this project is this sort of range of visual content that sort of encompasses the archive from family images dating back to the 1920s to like Snapchat filters and the sort of

language of emojis. I was curious if you could talk a little bit about the ways in which social media or the language of filters and emojis has shaped this work because it feels really surprising and unexpected.

Look, I never thought I would be an artist that uses emojis and Snapchat filters and all of these things in my work, like especially from going from this very sort of stuffy painter to someone with smiley emojis on my images. It just was surprising. It's also this sort of reaction to the reality that we're in right now. And that is part of our work.

visual language. I don't know, it's how people express themselves. And, you know, when you really look at how they're being used, I think that's where it's really interesting because you have, for example, this image of a soldier who's got two suspected ISIS members sitting in the back of his truck and the soldier is taking a selfie while sort of guarding them and they're bound and gagged and not looking great in the back of the truck. And so he's put over their faces and

two emojis of like sad crying faces and then over his face is a smiling emoji. And because I had all of his archive, I had all the different variations of

of this image that he had made. You know, so I had the original that you could see their faces and you could see his face. And then in one, he'd, you know, he'd scratched over with a pink marker. In others, he'd tried different combinations of emojis. I mean, that to me is just this really fascinating space of the anonymity that he's working with the public and the private spaces. You know, he, because he inevitably posted this image onto his actual social media.

And so he's bragging about his ability to be in that situation, about his strength as a man to be a soldier, right?

but then also, you know, placing these really playful objects on the faces. There's so many layers to it. And then to simultaneously compare that with these archival images that are, as you said, dating from the 1920s, there's not a huge archive of images from Iraq in the early 1900s. And to combine all of these, you know, to have these photos from villages where there's no sort of

contact with the rest of the world to then today where you are sharing these really gruesome yet funny images. It just creates a very sort of complex picture of this country. The images that people shared with you range from these really intimate family moments to human rights violations. And I'm curious how you felt about the ethical responsibility of being like a keeper of these archives for people.

I definitely didn't expect to be getting into the sort of situation that I was in. I don't think that I was sort of aware of the power of creating this sort of archive and collecting these sorts of personal images. It started off as, this is such an interesting way to tell a story, and then as I

actually started doing it and started going through the people's images, it really resonated with what sort of responsibility this project comes with.

It's such an intimate act to hand over your phone. To this day, I'm still shocked that people did it in the first place. And then the trust that they gave me to take these images, but then also the risk that they were taking of handing over photos that could easily be seen as war crimes, like evidence of war crimes. I mean...

Some of the images that I have are literally of, you know, suspected ISIS members being beheaded or tortured or whatever it is. And I then came to this moment of, you know, do I include this? Is this, you know, what is my responsibility within this? Is it to the people that are being tortured in the photo? Is it to the participant who entrusted me with their most private information?

possessions? And then also what is the sort of relevance and importance of showing these images? Because these are photos that, you know, most of us have seen or at least know exist or happen. So is that really, you know, a narrative that needs to be brought into this specific project? And yeah, it took a really long time to...

Figure out, you know, what my role was. Ultimately, my responsibility was with the participants and the amount of trust they gave me. I mean, I really can't say that enough of what a difficult and intimate process this was. And yeah, it's still it's surprising to me even even now that it was over.

so successful. Yeah, I forgot to ask you earlier, but how did it expand from those first few participants to over 50? Because you've met people and collaborated with people from all over the country, right? Yeah, I traveled to every sort of major city. I really wanted to show as much of the country as I could through this form. And it started with just a few people. And I, you know, I wrote to this girl, Muna, in Baghdad.

And was again, like, do you think that this is possible? Like, is there any way that people will actually do this? And they ended up like sort of coming. She invited two or three of her contacts. And so I would sit and, you know, interview them for two to three hours. I would take their portrait, which was always a sort of very long and intensive portrait session. And then, yeah, I would sit and sort of download their photos and

It was, you know, sort of a half day spent with each individual and a lot of explaining what the project was and, you know, why I was doing it and where it would be published, what my intentions were. And then sort of as I kept doing it, one person would call their friend and their friend would come and

And it really sort of built as this like very organic network. And then I was, you know, connected with people down in Basra and in Karbala and sort of all over. Yeah, it was sort of this very organic process. And then the remarkable thing for me was after it was published and said the first publication of it at Foam.

And I thought it was completely done. I didn't ever need to look through 5 million images again. And then as soon as it was posted online, I had people from Iraq asking, where can I send my images to? I want to be a part of this project. How do we participate? And that was just really remarkable and sort of, I don't know, justified all of the

you know, difficulty that had been a part of it and my sort of feeling of, you know, stealing people's images or that sort of thing. Like the fact that

other Iraqis really identified with the project. Yeah, it was quite important for me. One of the most important or powerful parts of this work for me are the portrait grids that you just mentioned. Tell us about your decision to make those and kind of what they represented for you. Yeah, so the portrait grids are really some of my favourite aspects of the work. I would take a sort of formal portrait of them, which was sort of a separate thing.

And then with some of them, I would, you know, there's this one girl, Shifa, that I always show the three different moments of portraits together. And that, you know, sharing of the shifting of time, I guess, or how different each image can be just in the split second, you know. I think that's really important because as a photographer, you have such power over how someone is portrayed. And as soon as you show these glimpses of the other moments, you know,

the whole narrative can change. And so as soon as I made that grid, I then was also looking at the grids of the selfies that people are taking. And sometimes when people will take like 50 different variations and you'll go through the phone and it's like 50 of what to me looks like the exact same image. But then at the end, you'll see the one that they've chosen, the one that they've put the filter over or edited or whatever it is.

And so what I found super interesting was to make a grid of all of these selfies and to show these tiny little nuances of how, you know, how people portray themselves and how people see themselves and what they're trying to show off or adjust or whatever it is. And it goes into this whole conversation of like the public space versus the private space and to unveil someone's 50 selfie test shots, I think just is such a...

an incredible sort of insight to this sort of in-between space and the questioning of self-representation. I agree so much. I find them so powerful. And I kind of love that there's elements of the work which are kind of, I mean, everything's sort of intrinsically linked to conflict, but also these parts like the portrait grids really just speak to the way almost civilians use photography, which is something we don't,

get to see in a critical context. And it's so, it's just so fascinating. It's so interesting from like a behavioral point of view and our relationship with our own image and how the camera facilitates that. I love that part of the project so much. I could, I just feel like it's almost endless, the reads that you can get from it. Yeah, I'm such a huge fan of that part of the work. You kind of sort of touched upon it then, but there's this real rich emotional texture to the project in which we

in one moment can be in utter tragedy and grief, and then we can shift to joy and joy

even like playful moments and almost this dark humor comes through now and again. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that emotional trajectory and kind of how it came into being. Well, with the selection of the images, you know, it was such a collaborative process. And, you know, there's such a wide variety of what I could have chosen and what the end result could have been.

And so for me, it was really important to always be sort of referring back to the participant. So we sort of started out with 300. I would cut it down to about 300 images and then I'd send it to the participant and say, like, what most represents you from this selection? And, you know, together we'd continuously work on what represents them and what they feel comfortable sharing. And, you know, I was always so surprised that

in their selections and in their openness to show these sort of darker moments. I mean, one of the soldiers, he has this photo with his kids and he's, you know, holding a gun to his head and then, and his little kids are sort of hanging off of his legs, smiling and giving the peace sign. And he selected these two images, you know, so in one image, so he's, he's smiling and sort of laughing and the other, he's got this very sort of stern face and,

I mean, it's the epitome of dark humor. And he had actually selected these two images, which is just so remarkable to me that he was so sort of open and either not really thinking anything of it, which is interesting in and of itself, or sort of realizing the intensity of the image. But it's just such a fantastic way to really show someone and to show someone's most intimate side

moments and also their playful moments and what are they comfortable sharing. One thing that I've realized I've never asked you about this work is how on earth did you go about editing it? Yeah, painfully, extremely painfully, honestly. It took about two years to actually make the final book. It was such a long process. You know, I'd come back from a trip and I'd be going through all of the images and I'd sort of get rid of

Any images that were just not like, you know, you're taking a photo accidentally or something, just completely not usable. And then it would get, I would have to curate it down to this like 300 image selection, roughly. And most people were giving me between 10 and 20,000 images per person. So it's a very, very sort of labor intensive process to get through that. And then you're also trying to figure out, you know, what...

what is this person mostly photographing? What represents them? And I'd constantly be falling into the trap of what's the most interesting image to me. But more often than not, that's not what

would actually represent them. I would really have to keep checking myself and keep sort of stepping back and giving it time. And yeah, it was a real back and forth. Like I said, I was constantly going back to the participants and asking if they were comfortable. And this is an ongoing process because of how delicate the work is. For some of the women, they would hand over their whole phones and just say like, you can't use any photos of me where I'm not wearing a hijab.

And first they would trust me that I, you know, wouldn't actually use that, which is remarkable. And then, you know, now I'll have to go back and be like, are you sure you're still comfortable with me using these images? Is it still safe for me to use this image of you? Are you comfortable with how it's placed next to this image of this other person? And so it's a very collaborative and long process.

process. Yeah, so you made the book in collaboration with GOST, but then you've also, the work can kind of continues to iterate as exhibitions. It was at Foam, it's been at several other institutions. You know, it's such an epic body of work that could kind of be cut and curated in so many different ways. And I think it's

I'm curious what that experience has been like in terms of presenting the work and if you've discovered anything by, you know, moving and shifting between different contexts. Yeah, I have definitely. I mean, I made the book first, which I think was extremely helpful and

you know, paring everything down and creating some sort of layout for the future exhibitions. Because I use this collage format, you know, there's so many different ways that you can do it and, you know,

you know, so many different like approaches. So I don't know, I think there's endless opportunities with this work, which, you know, is what was so exciting to me throughout the process of making it. You know, there's so many different angles that you can really pull on, whether it's, you know, the representation of women throughout Iraq, or if it's the role of conflict and how it's impacted every single person, despite whether they're a soldier or not.

Or, you know, the life of a soldier. There's so many different angles to it. And I think over time, that's, I hope, going to come out even more. Like the first few iterations have really...

sort of been quite similar. But I think as I become more comfortable with the work, as well as like people are more familiar with the work, I'll be able to really tap into these more specific angles and can continue to rework it. And then also, you know, it's open to

in 10 years, should I go back and check in with each of these participants and update the work? And that could be a completely fascinating sort of new project. Do you feel like you would be open to that now? I appreciate that's like a random question, because how can you predict the future? But this has been such an involved body of work for you that took so long. Do you feel excited at the opportunity for opening it up again further down the line?

I mean, I definitely don't right now, but I do think that I will in the future because your first project, I think, is something that, you know, you never really get over as an artist. That's sort of what I've gathered from looking and studying other people's work. Like your first body of work really sticks with you and you

I couldn't do it now, for sure. Like as people were sending me their archives after the first foam exhibition, you know, I really didn't have the space for it. But I also recognize that it could be such an interesting way of bringing that work to life again and to like checking in with certain people in such an intimate form.

I think that there's a real power there and it would be a loss to not check in and to not follow up with it. But I definitely do need to give myself the space to have empathy again.

and to see it again. And, you know, when you become too familiar with something, it's hard to document accurately or effectively. Do you feel in making this work, you've kind of found your own methodology with photography? Or do you see the work and the approach to the project in Iraq as being distinct to that experience and that time?

I think I've sort of put myself into a difficult position in some ways because, you know, I'm constantly saying that we need to step back and evaluate and, you know, include other perspectives and all of these things. But to do that in a way that's, you know, not collecting hundreds of thousands of images, like I haven't really figured that one out yet. So I'm, you know, I don't think...

I love the premise of it. I'll say that. I love this. You know, I love the approach. I love what the project turned out. I do hope I can figure out a different way of doing it. And, you know, one that's maybe a bit more self-reflective, one that engages my, you know, my painting background a bit more, but still has the same sort of

wider lens. But yeah, I don't know what that is quite yet, but I definitely don't want to just continue doing the exact same thing. But that being said, I'm already collecting like found objects for my new project and have like

pile of fabric sitting in my corner now. So I think I'll constantly fall back on a lot of the same methods. Yeah, you're working on a new long term project now, which looks at the climate crisis. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I am starting the project in South Africa. And I'm working with an anthropologist who

who's doing her PhD looking at the intersection of gender-based violence as a result of climate change. And so she's doing her research and I'm sort of mirroring her research through photography. And it's been this really interesting challenge to try and find a way to document climate change

you know, in a way that hasn't really been done before. Like I just don't know if the climate visual language is there yet or is fully developed yet. And I think that we're at a really interesting point where, you know, photographers now and artists now can be the ones that are navigating this new issue. I mean, that's not a new issue, but, you know, finding the most effective way to translate the importance of

of this moment and really defining what this language will be. So yeah, it's been a really difficult but interesting project to sort of start in a new region, to be in South Africa, and then also to be figuring out which

which countries are going to come next and how to really engage the wider sort of understanding. Yeah, it's such a challenging but urgent, as you say, topic to try and unravel. We need as many kind of different interpretations and ways in as possible, really, because in some ways it's impossible to visualize and then equally difficult

some of the main ways to visualize the climate crisis, we have become, have almost become tropes, or we have become kind of desensitized to them. So it's such a fascinating topic to take on. What initially motivated you to make work about the climate crisis?

You know, it's something that I've been wanting to make work on for years, probably even before I, you know, back to when I was painting, it was still something that was really present for me. But, you know, I don't want to make photographs of fires and floods and, you know, drought. I just, you know, the cracked earth images are, they're not useful anymore. And, you

This then I think goes back into that conversation of like photojournalism has its limitations and the goal with photojournalism is to translate a specific event into

Whereas as an artist, I feel like I have the luxury of being able to really document or question the concept behind something, the wider issue. I mean, it's this issue with like the images of the polar bear, you know, even was it the guardian that came out and said, well, we're no longer going to be using images of polar bears. And it was this big moment, but now we're doing the exact same thing where,

Every image of a fire looks exactly the same and you can't tell what country or timeframe it's from. There has to be a different way of going about talking about how important this is and how it impacts our daily life. It's not just that forests are going to get burned down, but it's...

you know, that areas already don't have drinking water. And if you don't have drinking water, you have massive issues of E. coli or, you know, the higher death rate of women within areas of climate disasters. You know, there's very, very specific things that we can tie this issue to that I think will ground it a little bit more. I mean, climate is, I think, probably one of the most difficult things

to photograph because it's everywhere and also nowhere at the same time. Yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see how this body of work

emerges. I can't wait. I think it's such an important topic. You ready for some quickfire questions? Yes. Okay. How do you deal with self-doubt? I don't know if I have found a way to deal with self-doubt yet. I think it's something that, you know, I'm hoping will come with age, but maybe like giving myself time and also just

like powering through it, you know, you'll have really good days and you'll have really bad days. And sometimes just leaning into the moments of questioning can end up being fruitful or they can end up being like completely useless. But as long as you can then, you know, go out and remind yourself, you know, I am a good photographer. I know how to do this. I can interact with people, that sort of thing. So I think just maybe continuing to sort of push forward

through it and continuing to make work. Creatively, what can you not live without? I think maybe time, like giving myself time has been one of the most important things for me. Like there's so much pressure to come up with the next body of work and to just keep producing. And I just think that that's so important

dangerous for people to just keep pushing stuff out. And, you know, that's when we end up with just like masses and masses of projects and like really way too many photo books or whatever it is, because people are just constantly told to produce. So I think having the, you know, the trust and the confidence in yourself that you can just spend the time to really think what the most important thing to do next is for you.

And what does art enable you to do that maybe if you would have stayed painting, you wouldn't necessarily have access to? I don't know. Maybe like the exploration aspect of it. Or, you know, this is part of why I was so drawn to photography is that I would be able to explore and explore.

be educated by the world around me and be engaged within these sorts of dialogues that I just find really, really crucial for me to be engaged with the world around me and

just to sort of get lost in it at the same time. Is there anything that you're unlearning? Trying to not be as impacted by other people's opinions, I think, would be a key one for me. You know, as a young artist, you're constantly being told, you know, you should do this, or, you know, you have to be talking to this person, or this is, you know, the way to get to here. And

And there's just no one way to do anything. And for me, trying to follow my gut a bit more and continuously have the confidence that I will figure it out or that I know what I'm doing or, you know, whatever it is. Do you think photographs still have the power to shift thinking or consciousness? I don't think they do in the way that people ask that question, I guess, because imagery...

will always have an impact on how we understand the world around us, but it doesn't have the same ability as it did maybe 40 years ago to actually change policy, for example, or to, I mean, if you look at any of the, I don't know, refugee images or something, if an image had the ability to change policy now, I think it would have happened. But I think that we're also just at a different stage within society

the world, I guess, which is such a vague answer. But I don't know. I think it's important to continue to make work that is questioning and that the goal is to make people look at the world around them a bit differently. But then the audience also has to, you know, the audience has a serious responsibility in actually engaging or allowing people

the work to impact them or not just flipping past images in half a second on Instagram or something. You know, there's a real disconnect, I think, with how we're

you know, sharing images or taking images in. Yeah, I definitely agree. To finish up, I wanted to ask you the question that I ask everybody at the end of the show, and that's what matters more to you, the process of making the work or the final photograph? I really love the editing process, which I'm, you know, shocked to even say after, you know, endlessly sitting on the computer going through hundreds of thousands of images for the last three years. But I really do, I love...

coming back to my office and sort of seeing what I was able to do that day. And then, you know, painting with, you know, the different colors and being able to, you know, really create something. And now this, the work I'm doing now, like I'm engaging my background and with the painting and I'm, you know, playing with the images and really like physically manipulating them. And that sort of process is

fantastic for me so I think each you know each layer is so important and one can't exist without the other obviously but I definitely thrive in the in the editing process thank you so much for coming on the show today it was so great to speak to you thanks for having me thanks for listening to the messy truth you can find more information about today's guests in the show notes

Theme music is changed by Judd Greenstein from the album Awake and design is by Ruby White. You can follow updates on the podcast on my Instagram at jemfletcher or subscribe to my newsletter at jemfletcher.com. Feel free to leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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