Path to the Presidency: Foreign policy
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Hi there, I'm Catriona Perry from the BBC World Service. This is The Global Story. How will foreign policy and America's role in the world change after the presidential transition? It's been a week full of travelling. Joe Biden made his first and only visit of his presidency to Africa. Donald Trump is in France for the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral and his future Middle East envoy has been to Qatar and Israel.

But President Biden's Africa trip was overshadowed by his decision to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, who was facing sentencing for two criminal cases. Just a few months ago, though, the president said he would not pardon or commute sentences for him.

The move has sparked sharp criticism from Republicans, with President-elect Trump calling it an abuse and a miscarriage of justice.

As the countdown to Inauguration Day continues, let's map out the path to the presidency. With me today, my fellow BBC chief presenter, Sumi Somaskanda, who's here in Washington, D.C. Hi, Sumi. Hey, Katrina. And from New York, our correspondent, Neda Tawfiq. Hi, Neda. Hi, Sumi. Hi, Katrina. Good

Good that we're all sitting together because there's so much to talk about on the domestic and also international stage. I was also looking out for both angles of the Trump transition this week, looking at what it will mean for the rest of the world and, of course, what we're seeing here domestically. But if we look out for the rest of the world, I wonder what you guys were thinking seeing President Biden now with just about a month left in this presidency going to Angola, his first time in sub-Saharan Africa.

And we were covering this week on the programs how he unveiled the fact that the U.S. is backing this long map railway project that links Angola with mining areas in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Zambia. I'm proud to announce the United States will invest nearly $600 million in additional investment to expand agriculture infrastructure, to build high-speed mobile networks.

and to continue upgrading the Lobedo Atlantic Railway. It's this railway that's about 800 miles, 1300 kilometers long. And it was really interesting because this is all part of this effort to counter China's influence in Africa. And of course, China has invested billions in its Belt Road Initiative and has invested in Africa's infrastructure in many countries. And so, you know, the criticism has been that the U.S. is a bit late to the game. But what it got me thinking was,

okay, where does all of this go when Donald Trump takes office? Is this going to be a priority for him?

And is he going to even keep the project running? Right. Because that's the big question. You know, you think about Joe Biden and making these commitments to Africa and he can't kind of waited right till the last minute to make a trip there. I mean, Donald Trump didn't visit Africa at all in his first term. You know, if you look at the Fox headlines of Biden's trip, they again kind of said, look, here's Biden spending billions in Africa, whereas those recovering from Hurricane Helene in North Carolina aren't still getting the help they need.

So we know Donald Trump when he comes in. He's very transactional. Like you say, Sumi, you know, he's going to understand that there is competition there. There's the need for lithium, cobalt, those minerals that Africa is so rich in. But he's going to want to know what's in it for the United States. So is he going to continue that investment? He won't like that China is also going to be benefiting right from that railway. It's not just something that the United States is going to be benefiting from.

And his relationship with the African continent, you know, he's had some pretty harsh descriptive words for the continent in the past. So it'll be interesting to see when he gets in whether Africa will even get a look, honestly, from the Trump administration. I mean, for both administrations, you can't really say that Africa has been a priority for them. I mean, Joe Biden has come under a lot of criticism for saying Africa was the priority. Africa...

has been left behind for much too long and beyond that. But not anymore. Africa is the future. And yet here we are just weeks from the end of his administration and he's making his first trip there. So, you know, actions speak louder than words in many ways. And if you go through all of the policy papers and platforms and so on for the incoming Trump administration, you really do have to struggle to find answers

much in it in a concrete way that's talking about Africa. And the whole world is guilty of ignoring Sudan, right? I mean, Nnedi, you know that from being around the UN. And in recent times, yes, USAID has committed a lot of money there, but all countries have made pledges of aid to Sudan and they haven't

delivered on it when you speak to NGOs working in that area. They're really, really struggling for humanitarian relief. Millions of people displaced, millions of people starving. And it's almost a forgotten conflict in many ways.

If you think about the fact that Donald Trump might look at Africa through the prism of China's influence and through that transactional lens that you were mentioning, Netta, you wonder what the benefit is then for some of these African countries. Of course, for Angola, a railway project through the region will be beneficial, can create jobs. But if that project is then ended, you wonder what would replace it. But I also thought it was interesting that if you look at how international relations are starting to develop as world leaders emerge,

like Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau going to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Donald Trump, how that is all playing out because we've already seen this flurry of activity on tariffs, which was a big part of Donald Trump's campaign, wasn't it? We're going to be a tariff nation. It's not going to be a cost to you. It's going to be a cost to another country. Raising tariffs another 10% on China. That was the proposal. I'm not raising your taxes. I'm raising China's.

And all of these countries in Asia and all over the world. And then tariffs on Canada and Mexico in order to get them, to force them, as he put it, to stop migration across the U.S.'s borders. I mean, that was kind of the opening salvo to those two countries. So it gives us a bit of a sense of how things are going to be. And it's about fentanyl as well, isn't it? I mean, that's, you know, the other big prong of the point of the tariffs on Canada and Mexico. But

I think it's so interesting that Justin Trudeau hopped on a plane and headed down to Mar-a-Lago unannounced.

which was a really interesting point to me when, you know, someone's president-elect, their day is very tightly scheduled and they're appointing and nominating people and so on. And Justin Trudeau sort of playing the domestic political game as well, thereby, oh, I'm going down there to talk to this guy about what he's doing because, of course, he was still in office for the first Trump administration, Justin Trudeau. So they do have that long relationship together and they know each other and they're

This is an escalation of what we've heard from Donald Trump. I mean, I'm just back from Ireland. I was there last week. And there's a real fear and a real concern in Europe on the financial front about Donald Trump with the tariffs,

corporate taxation rates, about companies that are based overseas creating jobs and making profits overseas and repatriating those. And the one thing about Donald Trump is when he says he's going to do something, he does do it. And he's spoken about his animosity towards trade surpluses for many decades now at this point. And

And I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I really noticed that leaders are laying the flattery on very thick when it comes to Donald Trump the second time around, because they know that that is a key way to get things done. And you mentioned Justin Trudeau going to Mar-a-Lago. I mean, Donald Trump will have gotten a kick out of that.

Canadian officials described how it was a very joking, fun atmosphere there at Mar-a-Lago, how they think it went down positively. But I mean, just remember that joke that Trump said if the tariffs were going to be so devastating to the Canadian economy, maybe they should make Canada the 51st state of the United States. I mean, officials said that they thought it was a good sign that Trump felt comfortable joking like that.

But you could just imagine Justin Trudeau's nervous laugh. Yeah, I don't think any Canadians are laughing at that one, really. At the image that Donald Trump posted with himself beside the flag and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you look at the French president, Emmanuel Macron, it's the same thing. You know, he's had a mixed relationship with Donald Trump. Macron, you know, Macron, he's a very nice guy. Macron, Macron.

And really a very nice guy. But the first time around again, he laid on the flattery. We're seeing it again this time. Whether that really lasts when key issues come up in regards to the war in Ukraine, NATO, we'll have to see. But certainly President Macron getting the kind of message as well that

Perhaps it's a good idea to be the first to tweet to congratulate him when he won, even before the UK, despite the special relationship, inviting him to go to Notre Dame as it reopens and that big ceremony. It's really noticeable, I think, to me to see how people understand how best to get through to Donald Trump.

So we've looked at the international world order under President-elect Donald Trump. Now let's have a look at the team he might have around him. And we talk about presidential pardon powers.

How much influence do K-pop agencies have over their idols? One group, New Jeans, wants to end its contract, but the agency says it can't. By leaving, it risks losing its name, its music and its fan base. I'm Hannah Gelbart. Join me on What In The World to hear all about this latest K-pop drama. What In The World is a daily podcast from the BBC World Service. We cover news and trending topics every weekday in less than 15 minutes. You can find us wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

I'm Katrina Perry, and this is The Global Story, where we bring you one big international story in detail. And every Saturday until the inauguration of Donald Trump on the 20th of January, we'll be bringing you an update on his path to the presidency. If you don't want to miss an episode, follow or subscribe to The Global Story wherever you get your podcasts. Today, I'm chatting with my colleagues Sumi Somaskanda and Neda Taufik.

Netta, I'm wondering how things are at the U.N. right now, because Donald Trump has tapped Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, one of his most vocal supporters on Capitol Hill, and someone who campaigned heavily for him as well, to be his ambassador to the U.N. I mean, how are people there preparing for that change between the administrations?

Because obviously there will be a change in how the Trump administration deals with the U.N. Yeah, look, I think there are kind of two points here. You know, the first is it's been a really tough few years, I have to say, for the United Nations, even before the Trump administration. So they're coming in at a very different pace.

place in the world. We have a situation where the UN Security Council has really been paralyzed when it comes to the war in Ukraine. When it comes to Gaza, you have accusations of hypocrisy flying around constantly between the US, the UK, France and Russia and China, for example. Elise Stefanik, in a way, really reminds me of a Nikki Haley figure, you know, somebody who wasn't actually

Trump loyalist to begin with, but very much became a MAGA foot soldier who is seen as a fighter. You know, it's interesting because many people questioned why she would want to leave Congress and head to the United Nations. She doesn't have much foreign policy experience the way Nikki Haley didn't. And she was kind of seen as a rising star. So many thought politically actually would help her to have those fights in Congress instead.

But perhaps she wants to shore up those foreign policy credentials. Nikki Haley was only there for two years. That's not unusual for U.N. ambassadors. But perhaps you could see the same thing with Elise Stefanik, you know, coming in saying she's taking names for Donald Trump, that the world has to fall in line behind the United States. But she's going to run into, I think, many issues. You know, one of Nikki Haley's successes was getting a few Security Council resolutions, increasing sanctions on North Korea, for example.

I don't see a world in which Elise Stefanik is going to make any progress on North Korea. I mean, you had Russia closing down, vetoing essentially an extension of the panel of experts that were monitoring the sanctions in North Korea. You have China essentially blaming the United States that it's just relying on sanctions and not diplomacy when it comes to North Korea. As we know, there's the issue of North Korean soldiers now kind of shoring up Putin's forces in Ukraine, the U.S. and U.K. accusing them of that.

So Elise Stefanik comes to the UN at a very different time. Republicans in general aren't as friendly to the UN as Democrats in terms of funding different agencies. So I think we're going to see all of that play out this time around with the kind of Trump 2.0 as well in the background during a time where there's more global conflicts than ever.

And that's a good point. I mean, when we hear the various people who are going to be part of Donald Trump's foreign policy team, we're not hearing them talking about the UN at all, really. Sure, we're not. I mean, we're barely hearing them talk about NATO except in disparaging terms.

And it's all back to this kind of America first writ large, but this very unilateral policy of American self-interests. And of course, all countries take care of their self-interest first. That's what they have to do. But it's country first, everyone else second. And we're not really seeing that, I think, from America in terms of figuring out where is its place going to be in this Trump

world order. I mean, the difference, I think, in Trump 2.0 to Trump 1.0, if you like, is now perhaps he's chasing legacy. I mean, the line we heard so much in the campaign trail, and we've heard again from officials now that they're being sort of nominated to positions is, oh, there were no wars when Donald Trump was in office, that this is kind of the point that

that they're striving for and the point that they're pushing for. And Donald Trump seems to be promising a lot of things and trying to figure out what the priority issue. I mean, I just finished interviewing Sebastian Gorka, who is the incoming director for counterterrorism. And I asked him, what is the main priority on a national security front? What is the thing you're going to be looking at on day one or concerned about on day one?

And he said, actually, the immigration crisis in the United States and talked about that line that we've heard from the president-elect himself about mass deportations on the first day and so on. And interesting that they're positioning that ahead of everything else. Interesting that it's a very domestic issue, but we're kind of seeing some interrelationship.

international lines on that. I mean, this idea that Donald Trump has proposed to some Caribbean nations to potentially take in some immigrants and you already have the Bahamas saying, look, we've looked at the proposal. We're not interested. I don't know about you guys, but it really felt very similar to what the UK just recently went through.

It's Rwanda. Exactly. And then Keir Starmer's Labour government coming in and saying, you know, we're getting scrapping that. It was an epic waste of money. So, again, it's all about the money, right, when it comes to immigration policies and how to actually implement these plans. I think there's going to be a real focus on that.

And I think, you know, Katrina, when you say it's about legacy, I think it's also very much what we've seen from the nominees for this Trump administration. It's also very much about actually implementing the agenda. You know, we've heard time and again that during Trump 1.0, his inner circle felt that he was hamstrung by a number of people in the quote unquote institutions that were holding him back.

And if you look at the types of picks that we're seeing this time, these are people who are not only 100 percent Donald Trump loyalists, which is very important to him and to his team this time around, but also people who have vowed to, quote unquote, clean up the agencies that they will be leading, you know.

if you look at someone like Kash Patel, who's a pretty controversial pick to lead the FBI, he's talked about using the authorities of the government to go after who's called enemies with a list of people that he's named or considered enemies of the state. And so, you know, these are people who I think will keep

He hopes, from what we see from Donald Trump, will do his bidding far more than during the first term. And I guess what will be interesting in the weeks ahead as well is how many of them do get confirmed. You know, we saw this with Matt Gaetz, the struggle over his confirmation, then he dropped out. Now the attention has moved to Pete Hegseth.

for defense secretary. Can he get confirmed? I mean, right now it's very much up in the air. I mean, think about somebody like RFK Jr. as well. There's still a lot of questions being asked. I saw Mike Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York earlier this week, putting a call out to Republican senators in a speech saying, do not confirm RFK Jr. because he's a vaccine skeptic and he would cause damage to our health institutions. So at the moment, it looks like a number of the picks do have an avenue

to get confirmed in the Senate, but there are a few where it's still very unclear. Pete Hegseth is an interesting one. I mean, the last few days he's been around Capitol Hill, as has J.D. Vance, the vice president-elect, trying to get the support. And there are many Republicans who are speaking kind of quietly and on background about, you know, not being happy about any plan to sort of rush through Pete Hegseth.

I was at an event this week with the incoming National Security Director, Congressman Mike Waltz, who is one of the names being circulated to potentially be the Defence Secretary nominee should Pete Hegseth not make it or should Donald Trump decide that there's just too much heat and attention around his nomination and that he should

want to replace him. So, I mean, it's in a way unstable time, isn't it, for the incoming administration and for the world in terms of trying to figure out who's going to be there, who's not going to be there, who are they going to have to talk to and figuring out what needs to be done around that. And when you're talking about the FBI there in Kash Patel's

to me. I mean, we have to remember that Christopher Wray is still technically in that job until 2027. Donald Trump appointed him the first time around. It's a 10-year term. He hasn't given any indication that he's prepared to resign. So, you

you know, it would have to be up to Donald Trump to potentially fire him, which is something, speaking to people within the Trump administration, that he's potentially prepared to do at one minute past 12 on the 20th of January. And that leads us, I suppose, to this other issue of the pardons, right? And that huge, huge decision that Joe Biden took.

this week to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, having said he wasn't going to do that and not just pardon him, but give him basically a blanket ban against any possible prosecution in a 10 year window. It was such a broad pardon, wasn't it? I mean, what did you guys think of the reactions we saw from Democrats in particular? Because it seemed like some, Chuck Schumer, for example, refused to answer any questions on it. There were a few people

or actually a good number by now who have come out to criticize President Biden, but some others who have also defended him. It seems like it also gives us a sense of where the Democrats are right now. Yeah, I thought Michael Bennett from Colorado making the point that this is just going to further distrust in the criminal justice system. I think he kind of got right to the heart of the matter, right? Because ultimately, if you have now Democrats and Joe Biden with that pardon, saying that raw politics has infected the

process, that there's no other way to look at Hunter Biden's case. Well, doesn't that sound exactly what Donald Trump has been saying about his cases all along? And what we saw was Donald Trump's legal team actually using that in his New York criminal case, the only case that went forward, the only case where he was convicted. It's, of course, not a case that was brought by the Department of Justice. It's a New York state case. But nevertheless, I

They have actually argued that former DOJ officials went over to the New York District Attorney's office, that this has always been about stopping him getting back into the White House. And they say that if Joe Biden is making these comments about the Department of Justice and the legal system, that it just proves that they've been right all along. So that was quite something to see written to a judge. I mean, we often see in these legal filings by Donald Trump's team, them sticking in things for political percolation.

You can almost understand that Donald Trump kind of wants them to insert these things in. And of course, their bigger argument is one about presidential immunity. But that aside, it does show that this is now the pardon issue. What you said, Katrina, about this just blanket pardon of 10 years, not a specific reason.

crime even listed. It's unprecedented in how the pardon's been used. And that could be something that we see moving forward with Joe Biden, with others. It's open season now. But it is exactly that point, Nanda. I mean, it's hard to see beyond it being an acknowledgement by Joe Biden that the Department of Justice can be weaponized. You know, you can't separate the fact that he is the father of an addict and the

Would any parent do anything they can to keep their child out of jail? I mean, yes, is probably the answer, right? Particularly if that child is an addict and clearly needs help and support and so on. I think if we're honest, you know, Joe Biden probably saw that Donald Trump was quickly seeing his legal troubles worse.

swept aside and felt that there was no loss on his end. He's leaving. He's no longer going to be president. No loss to protecting his son. And I think that's why we also saw some Democrats say this was an issue that kind of put the personal above principle here. The fact that Biden had said numerous times he wouldn't pardon. I'm extremely proud of my son, Hunter. He has overcome an addiction. He has

He's one of the brightest, most decent men I know. And I am satisfied that I'm not going to do anything. I said I'd abide by the jury decision. I will do that and I will not pardon him. If he pardons Liz Cheney and Dr. Fauci and so ever in this same preventative way, that I think takes the American political system onto a different level entirely. And I mean, you can have a bigger conversation about should presidents have pardoned

pardoning powers anyway does that make them too godlike traditionally they've been used in a way to kind of erase the record right it's like an apology for people that were convicted of things that are no longer crimes or there were very sort of specific sensitive reasons to it but

But this is just something totally different. Well, that was what Neil Katel, who's a former U.S. Solicitor General in the Obama administration, we had him on our programs this week, and he said, look, you know, I think generally the pardon power has to be reformed to actually reflect what it used to be used for, which is exactly what you said, Katrina, for pardoning specific offense.

And if you look at the way that Donald Trump used his pardons, you can, of course, raise many questions about what he chose to pardon and for whom. But they were targeted for specific offenses that those people committed. Whereas, as we all mentioned here with President Biden's pardon of Hunter, again, it's this broad kind of sweeping pardon. And if we were to do so preventatively for Dr. Fauci, for example, it is a completely different game. And it might raise those questions again of, OK, should this power be revisited?

But it doesn't look like that would be likely, of course, anytime soon with Donald Trump now entering the White House. He'll be keen to use his pardon power in his second term.

both parties will say it's a privilege we should have because the other had it during their term. I wonder, does Joe Biden pardon himself or pardon Donald Trump? I've seen a lot of chatter about that. I just think this country is so politically divided and toxic that I don't think Democrats would look too kindly on Joe Biden doing that. No, that doesn't look very likely at this point at all. But

It looks like that's all we have time for, guys. This was great. Great to have you with us, Nada. Yeah, you'll have to come back and tell us more. Anytime. Okay, see you guys soon. Bye. Take care. Well, that's a wrap from us today. Thanks for listening. And as always, if you want to get in touch, please do. You can email us at theglobalstoryatbbc.com. Wherever you're listening in the world, this has been The Global Story. Thank you for having us in your headphones. Bye-bye. Bye.

How much influence do K-pop agencies have over their idols? One group, New Jeans, wants to end its contract, but the agency says it can't. By leaving, it risks losing its name, its music and its fan base. I'm Hannah Gelbart. Join me on What In The World to hear all about this latest K-pop drama. What In The World is a daily podcast from the BBC World Service. We cover news and trending topics every weekday in less than 15 minutes. You can find us wherever you get your BBC podcasts.