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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. He's very ideological. He sees this battle not just as something happening in Myanmar, but as a global battle against fascism. They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars. I recognize the challenges from Ukraine to Gaza to Sudan and beyond. War. War.
Hunger. Terrorism. I just find bombs and I find dead people. But it's a really scary thing for me. Inside! Inside!
I'm Roland Oliphant and this is Battlelines. It's Friday, November 22nd, 2024. On today's episode, we look at two conflicts we don't hear that much about. Myanmar, where a brutal civil war has been raging, is attracting a growing number of foreign combatants to fight against the country's military junta. I spoke with The Telegraph's Sarah Newey, who has interviewed one of the fighters about his motive for joining this bloody conflict.
Plus, an increasingly worrying situation in Haiti. We hear from Médecins Sans Frontières head of mission there about why they took the decision to suspend activities in Port-au-Prince. But first, I caught up with Sarah Newey, The Telegraph's global health security correspondent. Sarah, before we dig into the question of the foreign fighters, could you just bring us up to date? How did this war in Myanmar start? What's it about? And who is fighting?
Myanmar for decades has struggled with elements of repressive military rule and civil war and poor governance. But there was huge hope in the 2010s when Aung San Suu Kyi came to power after she categorically won the first open election in years in 2015.
But there was always at the centre of that government a difficult relationship with the military and the civilians. And that really kicked off in February 2021 when the military launched a coup and disposed of Aung San Suu Kyi. That triggered mass peaceful protests, but the military cracked down very violently against them. And instead of this protest dissipating, it just ramped up and ramped up and loads and loads of people fled and formed all these different groups
groups, armed groups in many cases to fight back against the military. Now there were some ethnic armed organisations which existed for decades beforehand. They were also seen as themselves as anti-regime forces. So basically in February 2021 the country went from a difficult balance in politics between the military and civilians to the military saying had enough of this we're taking over.
Mass protests, huge crackdown. And the civil war is basically a response to that crackdown on peaceful protesters. And it's been getting worse and worse since then. I mean, it's also worth noting that the fighting right now, according to people on the ground, is the worst it's been in what David Eubank from the Free Burma Rangers said is the most intense fighting he's seen in Myanmar so far.
in the 31 years that he's been in the country and probably since the end of World War II. The situation is dismal. There are constant strikes on civilians. There's evidence of systematic strikes on schools, on healthcare, on religious places of worship. Thousands of people have died. Millions of people have been displaced.
And the UN is warning that in certain states there's a risk of famine because of the economic collapse is so extreme. So we're looking at it right now as a situation where the fighting is ramped up on one hand and the military as a military are slightly on the back foot, but really digging in. And then on the other hand, you've got this huge humanitarian disaster that is affecting basically everyone across the country. It's now reaching 50%.
in a way, a critical stage. And very interestingly, it's also now starting to attract foreign fighters like wars across the world do. It's a very interesting development because it's something we've heard a lot about in Ukraine, for example, and in the recent wars in Syria and the Middle East. You've been speaking to one of these people.
tell me about this particular volunteer who you've been speaking to. Yes, I've been speaking to a guy called Azad who's 24. He's a US citizen. He's come to Myanmar, well, he went to Myanmar nine months ago off the back of spending four, almost four years in Syria with Kurdish forces. He,
He's decided to go to Myanmar. He's one of a growing number, but still very small, especially compared to somewhere like Ukraine, of foreigners going to Myanmar. And for him, he speaks with a revolutionary fervour. He's very ideological. He sees this battle not just as something happening in Myanmar, but as a global battle against fascism and for democracy. He is very cagey about sharing too many details about who he is. For some obvious reasons, the military are...
pretty brutal, so he doesn't want to give away too many details, but he's fighting up in Shin State in the northwest of the country. He's significant as well. He's won...
of the people who've come together to actually form for the first time a front or a unit of specifically foreigners called the Anti-Fascist Insolent Front. The idea there to channel more donations and resources and to make it easier for other people who aren't from Myanmar to join the battle if they want to. Did you see his face? I mean, do you know...
How much did he actually say about himself? Would he just say, I'm 24, I'm from America, I fought in Syria alongside the YPG? So we spoke multiple times on signal, over the phone, not on video call, and then shared lots of voice notes. He's that type of person who makes it seem like he's sharing loads of details and then you go back over your notes and you realise he's brushed over a lot of personal information. He's very willing to talk about his motivations, why he's there, etc.
talk about the strategy. He really didn't want to share too many personal details, partly because I think he didn't want to become the story and also for safety reasons. So he has his Instagram that's actually open, but he posts everything. You can only see his eyes. He covers up his face everywhere.
So I know the biographical details, that he's American, where he's come from, that he was back in the US for two months before he left. I know a lot about his ideology and what's driving him to be part of this.
A few details about what he's been doing. So he's been on the front lines, but also doing some combat training skills. He's not military trained, but he spent four years in a conflict zone before. So he's kind of seeing himself as passing on some of those skills. Well, you talked about ideology. Tell me about this. What is this revolutionary ideology? Is he an nationalist? Is he a communist? What is this ideology that he was talking about? Could you lay it out?
Yeah, so exactly that. He describes himself as an internationalist and anti-fascist. So both those terms are in the title of this unit that he's been part of forming. Yes, he really talked with this revolutionary perspective of emphasising that he doesn't see this as a battle between
that we should ignore, not because it's a battle that people in Myanmar really care about, but because it has implications for freedom and democracy around the world. Did he talk about the other... No, does he see it as part of the same thing as Ukraine or...? We asked him about this and he said, while we were talking, why did you go to Myanmar, not Ukraine? And he was saying...
Partly because he really sees it as a ground roots battle in Myanmar. He kept saying, you really can say it's the people in Myanmar. It's not on any state, any level of state response. So he was saying he's for the fight in Ukraine. He supports Ukrainian defence, but it's not a cause for him. It's not a cause in the same way that he would attach himself to when he's thinking about this internationalist,
people from the ground roots rising against the government revolutionary perspective he views it in a different way Who exactly is he fighting with? Because as I understand there's an awful lot of different factions in this broad anti-Hunter alliance which group is he with?
Yes, the conflict in Myanmar is infamously difficult to go head around in terms of all the different groups. So he's up with a group in Chin State, who we agreed not to say which group he was because he's fearful of retribution against them by the junta, who have become increasingly brutal. It's an interesting moment, you alluded to it earlier, in the civil war at the moment, because a year ago, or just over a year ago, it really did seem like the military was
they would eventually come out on top. And then in October 2023, there was this operation called Operation 1027, where three different groups who, a coalition that called themselves the Three Brotherhood Alliance, they came together and actually completely unexpectedly launched this insurgency that was incredibly effective and really put the junta on the back foot. And that also inspired a lot of other groups to
So there are some of these groups who oppose the junta, just quickly for context, backpedal for a moment. Some have been ethnic armed organisations, been in existence for decades. Others, called People's Defence Forces, formed in direct opposition to the coup in 2021. So it's a patchwork of groups in different places, some much more established than others.
But since 2023, October 2023, there's been this major push. And analysts described it to me as like a year of embarrassing losses for the military, who are now sort of on the back foot, but increasingly lashing out. So they're getting more brutal, perhaps less precise, but more brutal in their airstrikes. They're increasingly using drones, which is something that the rebel groups have used to great effect in the past. Now the...
Junta are taking a leaf out of their book with training from Russia and resources according to analysts.
The other thing to say about these groups is, you know, it's not... They all have slightly different alliances. Some are closer to China. Some, which we're seeing in Rakhine State at the moment, you know, it's harder to paint it as no conflict is ever good guys be bad guys, but it's hard to paint like that because in Rakhine, for instance, right now the Akan army have committed some atrocities against the Rohingya, who we know back from 2016, the military have also been accused of genocide against them. So it's a patchwork...
situation um the one thing i will say is these groups are more unified than ever before so a guy called david ebank who's runs the free burma rangers he's been in myanmar for 31 years and he was saying he has never seen these groups different ethnicities different religions different politics come together so united against the junta so it is an interesting moment from that perspective just just touching on the nature of the war that um there's a grim milestone
Yes, a horrible milestone. So according to a report out this week tracking landmines across the world, Myanmar had the most landmine deaths with more than 1000 people dying. That's reported incidents in 2023, which overtakes Syria in this grim index or league table, however you want to describe it, which has had the top spot for the last three years.
The thing about landmines is they're not only being used by the military, they're being used by a lot of actors across the country. And a lot of the people who are affected are civilians and kids. So we actually did a story earlier this year looking at children being hit by landmines in Myanmar. There are efforts to increase healthcare provision and prosthetic limbs and things like that, but I think compared to the need, it's limited. You write in the...
The piece you wrote about the foreign volunteers, unlike Ukraine and some other places, this is a place where the rebel underdogs, in a way, might just have a chance of victory. What does victory look like for them? What exactly are they fighting for? What are they trying to achieve?
Well I think that's another incredibly complicated aspect of this war because different groups will see that in different ways and some of the ethnic armed organisations for instance want autonomy over their regions, others want a united front, then there's the national government in exile, the NUG, who are kind of more western backed, they want to form a overarching government. So I think this is one of the difficult things is that victory would look different depending on who you ask
That's also a really interesting perspective to come into it about international impact in the war in that China is a major player in Myanmar.
And China gave kind of tacit backing to this Operation 1027, or at least they didn't tell them not to do it. Who conducted that operation? So that was by three groups up in northern Myanmar. All of those groups really have quite strong links with China. And if China had said, don't do this, they probably wouldn't have done it. But China kind of turned a blind eye and let that happen. I think they were a bit shocked at how successful it was. And now...
The way one person described it to me, an analyst called Richard Horsey from Crisis Group, he was saying it's not that China completely backs the military. In fact, they probably think that they're pretty incompetent, but they are really worried about what comes next in Myanmar. They don't want their neighbour to be plunged into more instability and they also don't really want the Western-backed NUG to come into power and form a more Western-looking government. So, yeah, they're very worried and they're going to have ultimately a very big impact
role to play in how the war unfolds, I think. What are the prospects of ending that war? Are there any attempts by the international community or outsiders or China or whoever to bring an end to it? And also, I mean, what about humanitarian relief efforts? We don't hear much about this war, but it sounds absolutely horrific. Is there any attempt to address the humanitarian crisis?
Yes, starting with the humanitarian crisis, there definitely is an attempt. One of the reasons we don't hear about it very much is it's actually very difficult for organisations to talk about what they're doing because the military have restricted their operations in countries and kind of control. It's that classic balance we've seen in lots of places where the UN doesn't want to anger the military so much that they completely cut off all of their access because huge parts of the country still are under military control.
And they're struggling for things like vaccines too. So there definitely are humanitarian efforts. I would say it's nowhere near on the level that's needed for the need that is in the country. But yeah, it's difficult for lots of... I constantly hear people say, we're doing this, we don't really want to talk about it, or this healthcare programme is happening, but you can't talk about it because they don't want to either alert the military to what's happening or get their access further clamped down.
Then on, what was your other question? Oh, will it ever end? That's the million dollar question. Definitely the military is on the back foot. You can see that in the way that they're increasing their airstrikes, increasing their drone strikes. They also launched forced conscription earlier this year. Their resources have dwindled and people have defected. Also, they're struggling from the perspective of dissent within the ranks, which is pretty unprecedented. But
Is that going to be enough to topple them? I'm not sure. Partly because of China. I think China has... There are other efforts. ASEAN, which is the group of Southeast Asia governments, may say they've had an action plan, but really it's done absolutely nothing. China has its...
potentially the most influenced, but they are worried about the Western-leaning NUG coming and taking power. They're worried... Tell us who the NUG are. The National Unity Government. They're the exiled government. That's what they call themselves there. But China doesn't really want them to take power. And I don't think there's a clear...
sign of what's going to happen if the military did fall tomorrow, which is unlikely anyway. So I think it's going to drag out for a few more years and no one has a good answer for that question, to be honest. There's been talk of the military have been saying end to peace talks, all these to all the ethnic groups, but they all say this is a trick. The military is still saying that they're going to hold elections next year, but these are
not seen as having a chance of being free and fair elections. I think it is difficult because lots of the ethnic groups do want different things. It's not like it's two forces fighting each other. It's dozens and dozens of forces fighting. One thing that is interesting that's happening right now, though, is within some areas, like Karen State and Kareni State are good examples of this.
There's a healthcare system, there's an education system, there's talk of governance. There are attempts to form governance of these areas that rebels control now. But what that will look like in the future, it's hard to say. So I think the future of the country is still really unclear, to be honest. But what everyone is unified against is that they do not want the military to be in charge. They want a change of leadership. Sarah, thank you very much indeed. Thank you for having me.
That was Sarah Newey, The Telegraph's global health security correspondent. After the break, why MSF has suspended activities in Port-au-Prince, the capital of Haiti. We all have dreams. Dream home renovations, dream vacations, or sending our kids to their dream colleges.
But finding straightforward ways to turn those dreams into realistic goals, that's where things get tricky. Merrill understands that. That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. And having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you.
Welcome back.
Now, last week on November the 11th, an ambulance in Port-au-Prince carrying patients from Médecins Sans Frontières was attacked by police forces. Two patients were executed and the medical staff physically harmed. Since the attack, multiple death and rape threats have been made against MSF staff members, forcing them to suspend their activities until further notice.
I was able to get some voice notes from Christopher Garnier, the MSF's head of mission in Haiti. Here's what he had to say. The situation on the ground here right now for all of us is tense and difficult. People are very concerned regarding our patients, regarding our facilities and regarding our operations. We are all sad. We are all under pressure. We are stressed. And of course, we're worried about the future.
Well, what has to be clarified at the beginning is that we suspend our activities, means we are not accepting any new admission. But of course, we continue to take care of the patients that already are in our structures. We have a moral and ethical engagement regarding them. So we really have to continue.
Recently, since one week, a bit more than one week, we faced some personal attack over our staff. The reason of being burned in the car. This happened a few times last week. And some of our staff faced also the fact that patients who were killed died.
and they were taken out of the ambulance and they were killed outside. So all this is a quite traumatic situation. Everyone is a bit scared. That's why MSF made this very difficult decision of suspending activity. We had the feeling that if we wait too long,
we may face an incident that would be
Too much, and this could drive to more harsh and tough decisions. So to avoid this, we said we suspend our activity to give us the time and to speak with the government and to speak with the general direction of the police and to find some solutions together because we want them to be able to come public regarding the work and operations of MSF
impartially and with neutrality everywhere we go. It's very important for us to be here because right now in Port-au-Prince only 30% even less of the medical structures are still functioning. So MSF is quite a major actor regarding health. I mean, we are covering...
For trauma people, of course, but not only. We are taking care of sexual violence, abused people, gender abused people, around 100 to 200 visits a day. We are taking care of ambulatory, like we are providing some care for people. We are providing some psychosocial support,
We also have the only burn unit functioning in Port-au-Prince, even in Haiti. So we have a ward with what is called in French Grand Brûlé. We can translate with a big burn and we are the only one. And the plan was also to open a maternity. So we are covering a very large area.
and we are answering a very large need. So having our activity reduced and on standby has huge consequences over the population, and we really hope that this will not stand for long. We hope that we can have an agreement with the government and with the police to continue to collaborate, being safe for our structures, our ambulance, our patients and ourselves,
and to be able to continue to provide the best healthcare we can. That was Christophe Garnier, MSF's Head of Mission in Haiti. Battle Lines is an original podcast from The Telegraph, created by David Knowles. The producer is Yolaine Goffin. The executive producer is Louisa Wells. To stay on top of all our news, analysis and dispatches from the ground in Israel and Gaza, subscribe to The Telegraph or sign up to Dispatches, which brings stories from our award-winning foreign correspondents straight to your inbox.
We also have a live blog on our website where you can follow updates as they come in throughout the day, including insights from contributors to this podcast. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following Battlelines on your preferred podcast app. And if you have a moment, leave a review as it helps others find the show. As disinformation is a particular problem during conflict, we're relying on your support more than ever.
Battlelines is part of a wider Telegraph foreign coverage on our podcasts. If you're interested in finding out more about the war in Ukraine, you can listen to Battlelines' sister podcast, Ukraine The Latest. We all have dreams. Dream home renovations, dream vacations, or sending our kids to their dream colleges.
But finding straightforward ways to turn those dreams into realistic goals, that's where things get tricky. Merrill understands that. That's why, with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. And having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you.
So when your plans change, Merrill is with you every step of the way. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith Incorporated, registered broker dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
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