Hamish de Bretton-Gordon on Syria’s new leader, Russia’s quick exit and chemical weapons
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I met the man responsible for the mass graves who buried five of his family and now wants those bodies to be dug up so the evidence can be collected so that those responsible will find their time in the International Criminal Court. They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars. I recognize the challenges from Ukraine to Gaza to Sudan and beyond. War.

Hunger. Terrorism. I just find bombs and I find dead people. But it's a really scary thing. I'm Venetia Rainey and this is Battle Lines. It's Monday, 13th of January, 2025. Today we look at the flurry of progress being made towards a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza. Can negotiators get something over the line before Donald Trump's inauguration next Monday?

We also look at Israel's activity in Syria since the fall of longtime dictator Bashar al-Assad, from occupying additional territory on the Golan Heights border to airstrikes on Iranian interests. Plus, chemical weapons expert and former British Army Colonel Hamish de Bretton-Gordon talks about what he saw on his recent trip to Syria and the work being done to finally get to the bottom of the former regime's use of chemical weapons against its own people. But first, let's start with a quick catch up of the latest death tolls, both civilian and military, since October 7th, 2023.

Gaza's death toll is 46,565 people. The West Bank's is 816 people and Israel's is 1,837 people. Now, sticking with Israel, there's been a lot of talk in recent days about a potential ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza.

Obviously, we've been here before, multiple times. But the difference now is that President-elect Trump is set to take office in a week's time. And he has been very clear that he wants a deal before then. If those hostages aren't back, I don't want to hurt your negotiation. If they're not back by the time I get into office, all hell will break out in the Middle East.

And it will not be good for Hamas. And it will not be good, frankly, for anyone. All hell will break out. I don't have to say anymore, but that's what it is. And they should have given him back a long time. They should have never taken him.

There should have never been the attack of October 7th. People forget that. His incoming administration appears to be working very closely with the current Joe Biden administration to secure that deal. Over the weekend, we saw Trump's Middle East envoy, Steve Wychcoff, in Qatar to speak to negotiators, and Biden spoke to Netanyahu for the first time in months. William Burns, the director of the CIA, gave some insight into the work underway at the moment in an interview with US radio station NPR on Friday.

You know, at this point, I still think there's a chance. I mean, I've learned the hard way not to get my hopes up. I do think there remains a chance to get a deal. And we'll certainly in this administration work very hard at that right up until January 20th. And I think the coordination with the new administration on this issue has been good. Yotam Konfino, a correspondent based in Israel, joins us now. Yotam Konfino.

Yotam, welcome to Battlelines. What are the signs that you're seeing in Israel that the talks might actually get somewhere this time? So we're hearing in Israel that there's been significant progress overnight between Hamas and between Israel and Qatar. And that means that Israel and Hamas could be signing a ceasefire this week. At least that's according to some of the more optimistic sources that we speak to.

Until now, there was a huge issue with the hostages, basically. That was the main holdup of the talks. But it seems as if they have now overcome this obstacle and that they found that some of these hostages who were set to be released in the first phase of the ceasefire, that they're actually alive. At least that's what everyone believes now that they say that there's been significant progress.

And it's all because of U.S. pressure. Not only does Joe Biden want a deal before he leaves office, but maybe more importantly, Donald Trump wants a ceasefire to happen. If not before he takes office, then when he takes office. So he's been, both of them really, both Biden and Trump, through their mediators and through their envoys, they've put significant pressure on Israel today.

to maybe scale down on some of their demands. And Qatar have also been pressuring Hamas to finally agree to some compromises. So we are currently very close to a ceasefire or at least a framework for a ceasefire. Because we've seen the director of Mossad's foreign intelligence agency, David Barnier, heading to Qatar as well, right? What other sort of names of people being involved have we seen?

heard or know about that suggests that things are getting serious this time? So David Banner, who's the head of the Mossad, has been traveling back and forth from Israel to Qatar and to Egypt countless times in the past 14 months. But this time around, he was sent again on Saturday after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu met with Trump's new Middle East envoy, who traveled to Israel to put pressure on Israel and to tell him that he should get a deal now.

So after they had this talk in Jerusalem, Netanyahu ordered David Banea to head for Qatar again, along with another intelligence chief, Ronen Bal.

And this was really seen as another last attempt by Israel to close this deal. And overnight, apparently in Qatar, they reached a breakthrough. Now, we don't have specific details, and that's for a good reason. Both Biden and Donald Trump, for that matter, have apparently asked Israel not to reveal too many details because it often endangers people.

the negotiations. When you're in a last attempt to reach a ceasefire, the more leaks, the more risk there is for it to be jeopardized. So we don't know the full details of the ceasefire, but according to the people who still leak stuff to us journalists, it's more or less similar to the original ceasefire proposal that was discussed back in May and June when they were also close to reaching a deal. Can you just give us a sort of potted example

timeline of the ceasefire. We've only had one ceasefire deal, right? That was on November 2023. What have been the major issues preventing another ceasefire from happening since then? So on the Israeli side, it's been clear that some of the far-right ministers in Netanyahu's coalition have been a huge obstacle, mainly because they've told Netanyahu that they don't support a deal and they threatened with toppling him if he were to agree to a ceasefire.

And at this point, it's fair to conclude that Netanyahu definitely listened to them and that there was also some sabotage on Israel's end when it comes to the negotiations, which he's been criticized heavily for in Israel. On Hamas' side, it's been clear that the weaker Hamas got, the more they lost control over the situation in Gaza, including the hostages.

So they don't really know how many are alive and who's actually holding the hostages because there's been a complete breakdown of law and order in Gaza and Hamas's power has significantly weakened. So that has, of course, been a huge obstacle that Hamas has not been able to produce a list of living hostages that Israel could get in return for a ceasefire.

But now it seems as if both sides has really reached a point of no return in a way, because there's not much else to be gained from continuing the war. It's just more death and more misery. And both are really under significant pressure to finally reach a ceasefire. And do we know what each side would be?

providing to allow for this deal to take place? Would Israel be withdrawing from any parts of Gaza? We've had a list of hostages that Hamas might be releasing. Is there talk as well of Palestinian prisoners being released? Do we know any of those sorts of details? Yeah. So according to the main outline that was published in May and June,

What's going to happen really is a ceasefire in three phases. In the first phase, Hamas, etc., will release around 34 hostages, mainly women, elderly, children, and people who are ill. And in return, Israel is going to release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. We don't know the exact number yet. It could be around 200 to 250 or even 300 Palestinian prisoners.

And in the first phase of that ceasefire, Israel is also gonna partially withdraw from Gaza, not fully, but partially withdraw from areas of Gaza.

and they will allow residents who've been displaced from these areas to return to their homes. And of course, humanitarian aid will significantly increase because once there's a ceasefire, it will be much easier to distribute humanitarian aid in areas that are currently war zones, but that will obviously be free of any hostility.

And in the second phase of the ceasefire, the next batch of hostages will be released. It will be male hostages who are of military age, which means adults.

And there will also be a lot of Palestinian prisoners released in that round, actually some of whom have been convicted of very serious crimes and serving life in jail in Israel. And in the third phase, we will see finally a discussion on reconstruction of Gaza and maybe more importantly, who's going to rule Gaza.

Lots to keep an eye on there. I'd like also to talk about Israel in Syria. Obviously, after the fall of longtime dictator Bashar al-Assad, Israel went into some parts of the Golan Heights and took over some extra territory. Can you tell us exactly what they took and what they've been doing since December 8th when they entered Syria?

Yes, so Israel didn't waste any time whatsoever. Immediately after Bashar al-Assad fell, Israel began, I would say, a twofold strategy. First, they started taking control of the buffer zone that separates Syria from Israel, a buffer zone that was agreed on between Israel and Syria in 1974 following the Yom Kippur War in 1973. So Israel took control with that whole area.

It's a strip of land that's considered obviously neutral zone, but it was where Syrian soldiers were stationed. And after they left that area, Israel didn't waste any time. They took control of it because, according to them, they would prevent this area, this power vacuum that Bashar al-Assad left, to be filled by jihadists.

So they took control with that, and they also took control with Mount Hermon, which is a mountain right next to the buffer zone, and adjacent to the buffer zone, really. It's an extremely strategic point because on top of that mountain, you can see very, very far, as far as Damascus even. And you can also see a lot of Lebanon, of course, a lot of Israel. And in addition to that, Israel began conducting hundreds of airstrikes all across Syria against Bashar al-Assad's army.

So anything from fighter jets to missiles to defense facilities, intelligence facilities, everything really that Bashar al-Assad left behind, Israel began bombarding. And the main goal here was to prevent jihadists from taking control of chemical weapons and missiles and other military equipment. And what's the long-term goal? We've seen some reporting in the last few days of Israel

Syrian residents in this buffer zone fearing that Israel is there to stay. What kind of discussion of that have you seen in Israel? Look, they have a reason to worry. If you don't want Israeli military in your village, then obviously having them now and with no plan inside of when they're leaving, that gives you a reason to worry.

And we've already seen clashes between the Israeli military and some of the villagers. Three different villages, you had locals going out and demonstrating against the Israeli army. And in return, Israel fired shots in the air to scare them away and actually ended up also firing at some of those demonstrators and also detained some of them.

And Israel has also been going further than the actual buffer zone, going into Syrian territory proper, which is something that's extremely worrying to a lot of these people who live in these villages because they don't have any interest in being annexed by Israel anymore.

And Israel has not given a timeline. That's the whole issue here. All they've said is that throughout the winter, the Israeli soldiers should prepare to stay in the buffer zone. And only when there is a stable government in Syria and Israel no longer fears jihadists on their border, they would be able to withdraw. But nothing indicates that Israel is about to do that.

What's the Israeli government's view? Have they made any statements about how they see Ahmad al-Shara, the new leader of Syria, obviously a former Islamist himself? So they've been quite careful with commenting too much because they know that the whole world is now trying to basically reestablish ties with Syria and with this interim government headed by Jalani. So they're quite careful. All I can say is that they're not

thrilled that a former jihadist is now basically the point man in Syria. You used Jolani, his former name, his nom de guerre was Abu Muhammad al-Jolani, which is because that's where he's from, the Golan Heights, right? Yes, exactly. So it depends on who you ask, but he's often referred to as Jolani. It depends really who you ask, but that's true. That is the name that he's chosen based on him coming from that area.

of the Golan Heights. But yes, so Israel is not looking at him favorably. Let's put it like that. In fact, many would argue that Israel would prefer to actually have Bashar al-Assad in power because at least that's the devil they know.

The good thing is for Israel that now that Bashar al-Assad is gone, Iran is also gone. Iran is not using Syria as their own playground, sending militias in, having rockets fired from Syrian territory into Israel. But because they don't know the new leader of Syria fully and what his intentions are, there's still a lot of reason for Israel to worry, which is why they've taken control of this buffer zone in Syria.

Thank you so much for joining us on Battlelines. It's Yotam Konfino, correspondent in Israel. Coming up after the break, we hear from chemical weapons expert and former British Army Colonel Hamish de Breton-Gordon about his recent trip to Syria.

If you haven't noticed, it's winter. And now more than ever, I'm in need of a little treat. That's why I joined First Leaf, a wine club that delivers my favorite types of wine right to my door. Because there's really no better treat than a glass of delicious red, white, or rosé. So go ahead and treat yourself to world-class wines from First Leaf.

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Welcome back. We're joined now by Hamish de Breton-Gordon. He was a British Army colonel for 23 years and commanding officer of the UK's Joint Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear Regiment. He's currently a fellow at Magdalen College, Cambridge, and has written a memoir called Chemical Warrior. He also has a diploma in chemical biology from the Royal Military College of Science.

Hamish, welcome to Battlelines. Thank you very much for having me. Maybe you could start just by telling us what it meant to you to be able to go into these parts of Syria that have been inaccessible for the whole time that you've been working on the issue of chemical weapons in Syria for the first time. Well, absolutely incredible. And it's difficult not to overstate it. I also realise I might be looking through slightly rose-coloured spectacles.

But I traveled to Syria last week with the British Syrian diaspora, mainly in the medical fraternity, who I've been helping since 2011, 2012 in Idlib province in the northwest of Syria, where the sort of rebels were the last part of Syria that wasn't dominated by Assad.

and the Russians over these last few years. So we looked at Damascus and Homs from northwest Syria and saw the dreadful things going on there. So many people were evacuated out of places like Damascus, and if they wouldn't cartel to the regime and the Russians, they were sent to northwest Syria. So you had this morass of plus of 4 million people in an area that

pretty small, about half the size of Wales. So to travel with the very doctors, the Syrian doctors, many of them British Syrian diaspora, to Syria last week, to go to Damascus and Homs and meet so many people that I've met over the last 12 years who've all sort of congregated in Damascus and Homs to really try and help this new regime. And the enthusiasm, the smiles, the excitement, the desire to get this

wonderful country back on its feet which has suffered 52 years of devastation from the Assad family and including in the last sort of six or seven years from the Russians as well the place is virtually level to the ground so unbelievably exciting a massive privilege and I'm so glad that I went. What was the mood on the ground when you were there what kind of things were people saying to you?

The mood is overall sort of huge enthusiasm and the desire to try and get things back up and running again. The country has been pillaged. It's been bankrupt by the Assad regime and by the Russians.

But, you know, Syria is such a wonderful country. You know, people talking about it being secular and potential to be moderate. In the last seven days, I've been in more churches and more mosques. I've met more bishops and more imams than I have, you know, in an absolute lifetime. And to me, they're all colleagues and friends. There's a wonderful picture I posted on Twitter.

X the other day of the oldest church in the world in Homs, AD 57, next to a mosque. And the imam and the Orthodox priest were genuinely friends and genuinely colleagues. So that gave me great hope. I think also the fact that people are determined to make things better. Now, I was in Iraq in 2003 when Saddam Hussein fell. And

Yeah, we virtually threw Iraq under a bus. We didn't give them the opportunity. And I saw what went wrong there. I did many tours in Afghanistan too. So I saw really what went wrong there.

And when I look at Syria, I've been intimately involved for 12 years. You know, it's just not, there is no similarity between Iraq, 2003 and Afghanistan. There is such a massive opportunity. It is such a, you know, generally, you know, a well-educated population in Syria, despite what's happened over the last 12 years. And all my Syrian friends, predominantly, I admit, are in the medical community, so doctors, surgeons, consultants, etc.

And, you know, they have the intellect and the desire to make things better. Now, the key thing that struck me on the ground is how inclusive the new government want to be. And I say that from somebody who ran from al-Qaeda and al-Nusra for many years in northwest Syria. But in effect, these are sort of the same sort of people who are now running the country.

Ahmed al-Zahra, the new leader, was 12, 14 years ago part of the jihadists. Now, I missed having a meeting with him by hours, but my friends and colleagues spent two hours

within eight days ago. And they are people I trust. And they told me that he is the real deal. He is saying absolutely the right things. And one of the reasons I wanted to come on battle lines is to try and put the picture of somebody who's been intimately involved in Syria and seen it at his worst, and now have seen it at its best and to get the right message out. I mean, I heard there was a ridiculous story in the press the other day that

Al-Zarra didn't shake the hands of, I think it was the French... The German foreign minister. But that's not what happens in that part of the world. He put his hand on his heart, which is deference to her, not ignoring her.

And then there was another story that potentially some Alawites had been executed in Homs while I was there. Now, I understand that the Alawite in discussion here was the executioner of Homs responsible for tens of thousands of deaths. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong. Of course, in a perfect world, that person would have gone to court and be dealt with. But, you know,

When Assad has probably been responsible for murdering half a million civilians since 2011, you can understand why things run hot. But the general thing is the new government, as I saw them, I met the health minister, I met a lot of government officials, and a lot of my Syrian friends are now probably going to take significant roles. And

the British Syrian diaspora, for instance, their families and close relatives will be running Homs as governors and others fairly soon. So I absolutely trust them and they want all the help they can get. And the one thing to finish off this piece,

They don't want us to tell them what to do. They want us to tell them how to do it, and they want our resources, which is very different from what happened in Iraq. They've tried to maintain all those government ministries so that things like health can keep going, power can keep going, roads, et cetera, et cetera. They're trying to do that.

but they need help. And they need people like me and others to provide that advice, but also they need the resources. I understand the Qatari government have just

Giving them a billion dollars, which is great. That gets things going for the next few weeks and months. But you need more than that. And we need a plan. And I just have this feeling that the West is sort of standing back a bit and waiting to see what happens. But to me, we're in the eye of a storm, as it were, that there is a vacuum.

It can either be filled by good, well-intentioned advice and resources, or it can be filled by bad actors. And that would be desperate because 99% of the people in Syria, and certainly everybody I met and knows, wants to develop a moderate, secular society.

democratic in inverted commas, democratic as in a sort of Syrian democracy, a future for the country, which would just be marvelous after what they suffered over the last 12 years.

Well, let's talk a bit about some of that suffering over the last 12 years. And one of the things that Syrians have mentioned to us on battle lines about moving forward is this issue of justice and accountability. There are some things that can't just be swept under the rug. And of course, a big part of that is the chemical weapons attacks by Assad's regime on his own people. You wrote a piece for us over the weekend, Act Now or Let Assad and His Mob Get Away, Scott Free, which I will link to in the show notes for our listeners.

And you talk about the attack in 2013 when the Assad regime dropped half a ton of sarin, this deadly nerve agent, on its own people in Ghouta, the suburb of Damascus, which was a huge turning point for Syria, for the region, for the way that the West engages Russia.

with these sorts of atrocities, I think. We all remember Barack Obama's red lines, which were just trampled over. Can you talk us through a bit what happened that day and what the fallout of Obama's decision not to uphold that red line was?

Absolutely, and this is almost sort of tattooed on my own DNA. You know, I'd been in Syria for six months before this dreadful attack in August 2013, investigating other attacks. There had been sarin attacks in Aleppo and a place called Surakheb before. I'd helped collect evidence, and I was beating down the doors of politicians in Westminster to try and get them to understand and look at this, unfortunately.

They were too busy doing other things. And on the very morning of the 21st of August, 2013, I was on the Today program trying to explain what was unfolding in front of us. And it was just shocking. And this week, I'd been to the very site, ground zero, as I discuss in my piece in the paper, and met so many witnesses to this atrocity. I met the man responsible for the mass graves. He buried

five of his family in that mass grave. And now he is happy for those bodies to be dug up so the evidence can be collected so that those responsible will find their time in the International Criminal Court. But I think going back to your question about the Obama red line, this was such a heinous crime. And the fact that we ignored the Obama red line was shocking.

In September, the British government had a vote. David Cameron gave a speech. It was a free vote.

I was in Parliament that day. I was briefing every MP I could get hold of to try and to explain to them exactly what was happening. And unfortunately, Ed Miliband was the leader of the Labour Party at the time. He led his party and many to oppose the vote. And the vote was all about striking Assad. Now, I personally believe that that inaction

is a lot of the reason that Assad carried on for so many years, killed half a million people. And not only that, you know, when people like Putin look west,

He saw that there was not even a determination in the West to punish somebody like Assad, who had killed 1,500 of his own people. So why on earth would we worry about him invading Ukraine? So I think it has so much to do and so much underwritten within all that and why it was so very significant. Now, of course, the United Nations and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did go into Syria.

And Assad admitted that he had some chemical weapons. And the UN took those chemical weapons out. But again, people like me, who knew the details, knew that he had given a tiny proportion of his chemical weapons to the UN and continued up until 2020 to use chemical weapons against his people. Now, we turn back to August 2013. Assad was about to fall.

I have been to ground zero, and it is very close to the regime areas. And that's why I think Assad used chemical weapons. If he hadn't, he would have fallen in August 2030. And it was a sort of last-ditch effort. And I expect he looked at the West and looked at Britain and others differently.

and thought, yeah, we're not going to do anything. There was so much talk about not making the same mistakes of 2003 in Iraq and Afghanistan by people who just did not understand what they were talking about. And unfortunately, you know, I put the blame on myself. I couldn't convince them that it was different. Can you elucidate how it was different? Well, Iraq 2003, when Saddam Hussein was deposed, we basically did nothing to help

the new Iraqi government to reset itself. And that was what the argument was being used in what Westminster and I expect in Washington as well. If we depose Assad,

what we will get in future will be worse and the country will descend into anarchy. Well, that was just not the case. You know, Iraq didn't have the wherewithal to be able to aid things. Iraq was also full of Iranian militias who actually set fire to the country. Now, what has happened recently, and I'm jumping forward a little, the reason that

Assad could be disposed is that the Iranian militias, they've left the country. You know, Hezbollah, I hadn't realized how significant Hezbollah was in keeping the Syrian people down. They were fundamental. Now, whatever we think about what's happening in Israel, that war has led to the demise of Hezbollah, which, and when the Syrian opposition decided to rise up and attack Aleppo a few weeks ago, there were no Iranian militias. There was no Hezbollah to stop them.

And the Syrian army is so poorly led and so corrupt that they crumbled as well. And the Russians who...

you know, were focused elsewhere, they cut and run. So everything came to an impact. So it was a very different situation back in 2013. And today it's a very different situation. And when people tell me, well, we don't want a pre-Iraq 2003, I really pull my hair out because they are so, so very different. And the opportunity with Syria, because I think particularly from a British perspective,

Because so much of the British Syrian diaspora have always been so key to Syria, not least because it is the medical fraternity, the most well-educated, the most well-connected people that want to make a difference and get on and move things on. That's why it's very different. And that's why I think there is such an opportunity to turn Syria into this secular, moderate, democratic country if we act quickly.

Just staying with your visit to Ghouta, you mentioned a man who buried his own family. Assad tried to blow up those graves to destroy the evidence of this chemical weapons attack. But you mentioned that the evidence is intact and it's awaiting collection to be presented at the International Court so that one day those who perpetrated such war crimes will get some of their just desserts. Do you think that will happen?

I very much hope so. I've spent years going into Syria and people telling me, why are the West ignoring us? Why isn't Britain helping us out? And I always said, even from day one, you know, I can't explain that, but collect evidence.

I fought in the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, and 10, 15 years after those wars, those generals who committed atrocities finally went to the International Criminal Court and in jail. So there is precedent. It can be done. There have been lots of investigations hitherto by the UN and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. It's been massively hampered.

by the Russians who have every stage tried to contaminate the evidence, destroy it. Their propaganda and disinformation is legion. In fact, the other very significant chemical attack happened in April 2018 in Douma, which is in Ghouta suburb as well, but a couple of kilometers away.

This was an attack that killed about 70 people, mainly children. Chlorine barrel bomb dropped on a hospital again. And I was trying to get the evidence of that attack out. Unfortunately, it just became too difficult to get it across borders. But the evidence was there. And again, the UN went to inspect. So,

The United Nations and the OPCW actually have all the evidence they need for this, but hitherto they have been stymied by the Russians. I think now, and the fact that, I mean, Guta is the sort of mark event that everybody in the world knows about. The final bit of that evidence would probably be to exhume some of those people and their

There are 1,500 people in a mass grave the size of two cricket pitches. The guy who actually buried them was telling us that with a digger, they dug down five meters and people are just laid on top of each other. But it will be possible to be able to extract DNA and other things to work out exactly how they died. But the other pitch to this, you're absolutely right. The Syrians rather did try to destroy the evidence. Before the chemical attack, there was a massive conventional attack

So cynical, the idea there was to break windows and doors so the gas would be more effective. And then afterwards, there was a massive attack. And as the man running the mass graves was telling us the other day,

A few weeks after a game, the Russians bombed it and tried to set fire to it. And there is still evidence of a big sort of dip at one end of the masquerades where, you know, sadly some of those bodies will have been destroyed. But most of it is still intact and most of it will still provide viable intelligence.

You mentioned the Russians. You were speaking on our sister podcast, Ukraine The Latest, about the fact that they seem to have completely disappeared from Syria. Can you tell us a bit more about that? I think the first thing I'd say about the Russians, and again, there is a lot of disinformation around this. I would say that 99% of Syrians I know and I met last week

absolutely despise the Russians, believe the Russians are responsible for the destruction of their country. So some of the talk we hear about now is Putin and Lavrov are going to negotiate with the new leadership. I find that very, very difficult to believe. I think the fact that they melted away so very quickly, I mean, it's classic activity of a bully and a tyrant. When things get tough, they charge away.

There is absolutely no sign of the Russians, certainly in Damascus. I mean, their old massive compound, which was their sort of embassy and, you know, where they did their dreadful deeds, is still there. A sort of dark edifice covered with barbed wire and was bristling with aerials where God knows what evil happened there.

That's gone. The smart suburbs with the big villas where the Russian elite used to hang out, they've gone. There was a big air base near Homs where Russian jets launched terrible attacks on Homs and elsewhere. They're gone. I understand from people on the ground that the Russian Navy have pretty much abandoned Tartus, which is their big port up in the sort of northwest part

and their major airfield near Latakia, we understand. But again, people were telling me there is still a small Russian presence there, but not very much at all. So when things went badly, it would appear that the Russians picked up. And for them, it was a humiliation. They invested so much time and effort in Syria. And conversely, I'm hoping, actually,

In a way, it might well help the Ukrainians and what they're doing up there. The final thing to this, people are telling me that the Russians and Assad absolutely bankrupt this country. And virtually when Assad left, he took as much riches as he could and the plane took off and now he's hiding under the tails of Putin in Moscow somewhere. But yeah, nobody I met had anything good to say about the Russians.

What about the Israelis? We heard about, at the beginning of this podcast, about Israel's involvement in Syria, taking over some extra territory in the Golan Heights, airstrikes on Iranian Hezbollah interests. Did you hear many people talking about Israel and the relationship going forward? Yeah, I think Israel is a really...

Tricky question or tricky thing to be talking about in Damascus. I mean, there is real politique here. Exactly. On the one hand, Israel has taken Syrian territory and we know about the Golan Heights. We also know the Israelis struck in Syria many times, but this was...

against Assad and regime and Russian assets. 2007, they very famously, the Israelis struck the developing Syrian nuclear program, which nobody would complain about that. And they struck other key sites, mainly the Iranian militias, Hezbollah and others who were operating there. So it's a difficult one. On the one hand,

grabbing Syrian territory is something that most Syrians would not want. But I think when you look at it with a real politics spectacle, actually, Israel in a significant way have enabled the fall of Assad. Also, Israel after the fall of Assad appears to have struck some of the chemical weapon sites where Assad was storing his chemical weapons. And that is not the ideal thing to do, but it's

one look to the in the circumstances the least worst option because the last thing anybody wants is any of those chemical weapons falling into ISIS and other jihadi groups so that is there so it's you know on the face of it the Syrians and the Israelis you know are not comfortable bed partners but

People realize that actually the actions of the Israelis over the last year or so have in a significant way enabled the demise of Assad and the opportunity for them to create a new country.

I want to finish by asking you what you think Britain should be doing. Your piece argues quite powerfully that Britain in particular has a special role to play in helping Syria get back on its feet. What do you think they should be doing? Well, I do. And I think it might be strange for a lot of people in Britain to

to hear somebody like me saying that because, you know, Syria is never a country that's been particularly close to Britain. We never had any sort of colonial type or much of a colonial link to it. It was very much the French that were dealing with it and the Turks, of course. And let's not forget, I mean, the Turks are very much behind what's happened in Syria over the last five weeks. But when it actually comes to reality,

And really, with my experience of the Syrian British diaspora, I think

ostensibly being involved in the medical fraternity and the setup of the medical sort of networks in northwest Syria, which, interestingly enough, the new government want to replicate across the whole of Syria. So all the Syrian British diaspora who are flooding back into Syria and going around the government ministries in Damascus, you know, are having a real impact

The other element to this is the White Helmets, who are the emergency services set up again by British government money and

And a dear friend of mine, James LeMessurier, sort of was key to it. I had a small part to play in training the White Helmets how to deal with chemical weapons. These people are now responsible for setting up the emergency services across Syria. So there is a really strong sort of British link in there. And having spent a few days in Homs, which is the third city, well over a million strong, you know, all the key people there,

as I mentioned earlier, have British familial links. So on the face of it, why are we interested? Well, actually, we have the opportunity with the influence and the expertise in this country from Syria and the diaspora to make a huge difference. And I would like to see the British embassy in Syria in Damascus open tomorrow. Now,

Having been a soldier for 25 years and been involved with these things, I can just imagine the risk assessments and the planning and everything else that's going on. I suppose the point I'm trying to say is that, you know, to me, Damascus is a safe place in inverted commas. There was a bit of gunfire going on. Most of it was celebratory. There were two explosions, but actually...

I felt safer in Damascus this week than I did in Marrakesh four weeks ago. And, you know, it's a bit of an up-cliff comment, but it's, you know, you get a feel for these things and having knocked around on the battlefields of the world for 35 years, you know, I reckon it is a benign place, which is why I would quite happily set up the British embassy and go and live there and work. But I know convincing my friends in the foreign office and elsewhere that that is the case is,

That's going to be tricky. And why I'm passionate about it, because I know the process will take weeks, if not months. And I'm not sure that Syria has that. I think it needs really to move forward very quickly. They're doing what they can on their own.

But what they lack is the advice that we can give them and also the resources. And I know the British taxpayer is bulking at having to spend so much money helping Ukraine defeat the Russians. And no doubt, if we say we're going to

give the Syrians a billion pounds, there will be a similar thing. But any investment we do in Syria now, I think, will make it much less likely that the jihadists, ISIS, will develop and produce a terror threat to this country. But also, it's the right thing to do. And we can do it and make a difference. And I just hope the people in Westminster and Whitehall realize that and make the decision to get involved as I think we can.

Thank you so much for joining us on Battlelines. Hamish, to Brett and Gordon. That's all for this episode of Battlelines. We'll be back again on Friday. Until then, goodbye. Battlelines is an original podcast from The Telegraph created by David Knowles. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following Battlelines on your preferred podcast app. And if you have a moment, leave us a review as it helps others find the show.

To stay on top of all of our news, subscribe to The Telegraph, sign up to our Dispatches newsletter or listen to our sister podcast, Ukraine The Latest. You can also get in touch directly by emailing battlelines at telegraph.co.uk or contact us on X. You can find our handles in the show notes. Battlelines is produced by Yolaine Goffin and the executive producer is Louisa Wells.

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