#99. Oscar Fuchs: Warts and All
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What is up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

We got a fun one today. Our guest is the host of the Mosaic of China podcast. It's a popular and wonderful podcast with a diverse range of guests exploring the lives of people who are making their mark in China. So today, we open up and have an honest talk about the stresses and insecurities of being podcasters, and we try to pinpoint the real reason for doing our respective shows.

We talk about the roles of our egos, the midlife crisis, the paradox in our personalities, and our guest talks about his pursuit to stay relevant. We also have a very candid conversation about our perceived identities in China during a period of rising national pride and changing global dynamics. We also have a heart-to-heart about both our optimism and pessimism on these implications and the potential future of the world we live in.

We shared many laughs along the way. It was such a great time talking to our guest. This one was hosted by Howie, Eric, and myself. So without further ado, please welcome Oscar Fuchs. ♪

Ooh, 23. I mean, that means nothing to me. It means it's good. It means it's good, yeah. But if it's too good, then don't waste it on me. That's also the issue. Totally.

You're too polite, Oscar. You're too polite. I'm English. We're not really polite. We just use it as a weapon. Here, make your own gin and tonic, however you like to make it. Do you have any lime, by the way? I do not. I'm sorry. Fail.

What is this amateur production we're running? Yeah, man. A gin tonic without lime. All right. I guess. Is it a new bottle? It's a new bottle. I got it specifically for you. I didn't have gin. I don't really drink gin. Oh, no. Yeah, feel bad about it. Feel bad about it. My animal politeness is actually getting there. Feel bad about it. Feel bad about it. No, no, wait, hold on. Let's do the whiskey first. Okay. Oh, that's a lot. No more than that.

That's okay. No, no, no, because I won't finish it. That's okay. Like a shot? That's about a shot glass worth. Yeah, that's about a shot. And you would drink that as a shot with the ice in it? We're going to do it without ice. Already, I'm a little bit. Oh, shit, that's a little too much. What is this, rum? No, this is whiskey. We're going to do a whiskey shot first. We're doing a shot together first. Oscar, you say you hate whiskey. Is that what it is? Well, we're already recording. Sure we are. Oh, we're rolling. We are hot. Wait, what did I say until now? Uh.

I have never been able to drink whiskey. I've tried. It's one of those things where I know I should like it and everyone's a connoisseur with whiskey and I feel like the biggest pussy for not being able to drink it. So I keep on trying to train myself and each time I end up failing. So let's see if it works this time. Well, what is it about it that... I just, I can't tell you why because I quite like strong tastes.

and this is koei yeah i like i like strong koei he's like strong koei it's own koei can go a lot of ways well i don't know let's see what let's see what cheers okay cheers cheers to a shot of whiskey cheers i mean it's not bad it's not bad right there it is oh there it is dude like the bong hit yeah exactly

Oh, my mouth is on fire, guys. It wasn't bad, though. It actually wasn't bad. It had kind of a honey finish. I liked it. It's nice. Yeah. How would that rank for you guys? You're the connoisseurs here.

Well, actually, we're really not that knowledgeable about whiskey. We're just the consumers. We're just consumers. Beautiful. I feel slightly victimized, but thank you very much. Here, make your drink. Are you going to do a gin and tonic? Thank you. I will. All right. We're going to do some rum today. I always like it when we go back to the roots of Honest Drink. What's the roots? I think there was a...

Well, the roots were in the very beginning, we had a little bit of a ritual with the drink, bringing it out, what we're going to drink, you know, kind of tasting a little bit. Yeah. I don't think we have many of these left, right? Real rituals. I'm just trying to think if I have any rituals apart from routine masturbation. Does that count? I've spilled my drink. Do you have a serviette? Is that an English thing to say, by the way, a serviette? Or do you know what that means?

Dude, this is going to be like the most loud show ever. That's Eric taking out his anger right now. Hold on, let me get some nothing. We're off to a great start. We're talking about masturbation. Yeah, yeah. I think it was the whiskey. I was loosened up too quickly and that also sounds rude. Can I do like a disclaimer at the beginning of every show? This guy, this guy.

Can you believe him? Hold on. I do believe. Anything that I hear from Eric, I'm going to take it at face value. Oh, that will be your demise. He's still breaking his ice. Like, we're all ready to drink, Eric. This has actually been five minutes. For two cubes. Oh, we're drinking the rum now? Okay. All right. Well, cheers. Once again. The formal beginning. What happened here? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, God.

You guys are amateurs. I don't know what the hell you're thinking. We really are. We've turned on amateur hour right now. Wait, hold on. We've made it a professional endeavor to be amateur. Absolutely. I'll cheers to that. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. That's good stuff. Good stuff. I'm happy.

Well, Oscar, first of all, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to be here. I'm so excited that you're here. You do amazing work with Mosaic of China. Well, thank you. I can't take compliments, but I will just...

grin through what you just said. Yeah, just take it. No, but it's true because it's a different vibe for me whenever I can get another podcaster onto the show. We kind of started off at the same time, right? Is that the last time we spoke, we kind of realized our podcast, we started around the same time, right? Two years ago. Yes. Around summer 2019, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's really great to have you here to share this journey with you and get your take on it as well. Cause we're kind of from the same tribe as podcasters and I really appreciate that. Oh,

I feel it, man. I am so excited. And maybe I speak for your listeners too, because just being here and sort of in the exalted room where you do your podcast, it's like being in the room with friends that I've known for a long time, which I think is the way that you've been able to produce your podcast, which I'm supremely jealous of. The first time I met you, right, and I feel like there was this mutual respect.

Like podcasts in Shanghai, like the bar was Mosaic of China. Oh, dude. Yeah, because that's the one I knew, I heard of first. Oh, okay. And so I had the impression that you were around for a really long time. So to me, it was like Mosaic of China was kind of like that bar set here locally in terms of podcasting. Well, that's very kind. I think it's a function of...

me knowing how to make myself look bigger than I actually am. I think in, when I was actually in business, that was part of what we did as well. Like you are a small minnow, but you learn the tricks of how to make yourself look like the big shark. You swim like a big shark. You swim like a big shark. And that's, I mean, that's part of my delusion. In fact, well, is it kind of like the same philosophy, like fake it until you make it? It is sort of, but then you can't fake it to the extent that, you know, there's, there's nothing underneath. You're just some souffle. Like there has to be some substance. So you,

You can't sort of say something which you're not, but you can project an image that's larger than your actual size. That's what I'm getting for. So it's not about saying something which, you know, puffing yourself up. It's about

Doing your best to make your image go as far as possible. But again, I don't think I do a good job of that I think you guys are killing it like I think you have a lot more support than I have and you are under the radar for me because I spend most of my time in my cave just doing my project and Then when I found out about you guys, I'm like, okay, what the hell is this about? Let me listen to a few of these things and I got into it despite myself and

Despite myself, I really got into your podcast and I...

I'm not supposed to like your podcast. I think you and I talked about this when we met. On the surface, I do not like the idea of your podcast. It's like an hour and a half long. It's too fucking long. There's three straight dudes talking about shit in a room, drinking bloody whiskey. I can't drink whiskey either. I'm like, I don't know why these guys are popular, but I'll dip into a few episodes. And I was hooked.

So, I know exactly the feeling of your listeners because, you know, for me, just feeling the energy of your conversations, I felt the realness there. And that was what I think I was jealous of because I think a lot about my podcast, it's of course real, but it's a lot more measured. It's a lot more controlled. Controlled.

There is a very specific format, which I like. I like having a format to play with. And then you having this freestyle, like no holds barred chat, it works. And it actually, it's the heart of what podcasting should be about.

So when I listen to you, I feel like, ah, you know, that's what I miss in my podcast. It's that energy that you bring every single time. And I'm not talking about myself. I'm actually talking with the listener in mind. I'm sure people are there nodding. And like, I wish I was in that room talking with the guys too, because I feel like,

In every conversation you've had, I would have liked to have been in that room saying, oh yeah, yeah. And my point is this, my point is that. So yeah, I'm not sure what I do. It has, it lends itself to the same kind of informal way that, that people outside can, can be part of the actual experience. But like what the most surprising thing after having met you was that you are, you are such a bright personality.

You are so dynamic. There's so much to you that I honestly, I'm going to tell you straight to your face, I feel like it doesn't come out

in your podcast, right? And you give too much ground, I feel, to your guests. Well, because they're interesting people, number one. But I feel like there's a lot, so much you can add just knowing you, meeting you in person and seeing like this personality. I feel like there's so much charisma you can still add to your show that probably your listeners don't know unless they've met you. Right. I mean, again,

I can't agree with that because I don't know how to take that compliment. But yeah, I mean, it's what I've been struggling with. And this is why I'm keen to talk to you today, actually, because I'm at the process now where I'm in the middle of two seasons. So I'm producing my next season now. And I have this space to rethink, well, how do I approach the next season? In what way do I carry on? In what way do I slightly change things? So

yeah, this conversation is happening at the right time. To what extent should I inject more from myself? And then, yeah, as you say, don't let the guest control too much. The alternate thing is...

To me, it's an exercise in humility in some way, because I do have quite a healthy ego. And that's not something I particularly like putting out there, which is why I like you guys, because you put all your warts and all into your podcast. Like, I know some of the worst things about you because of your podcast. But that's the beauty of it. That's the vulnerability that I don't think I quite have the balls to put out at the moment. Everything I do is authentic.

But, you know, we're all in some ways performative, right? You have a work persona, you have a persona which you use in Friends. Like, we all know how to act differently in different situations. And so for me, I did have, you know, I did think very carefully about what is the side of me that I will put out and what I wouldn't.

So that's what I think I need to recalibrate, you know, and finding your podcast, getting into it, being reminded about what podcasting is all about, meeting you guys, you know, all of that is part of the same process. We can learn from each other. You know, it's not about competing. Like my podcast versus your podcast. I love your podcast and I'm proud of mine. It's not a kind of zero sum game, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was a very, you know, you were talking about your first reaction when you first came across before you started listening to us.

And to be honest, it was a similar reaction on my end.

in terms of like, there is that natural competitiveness, I guess, especially when we're in a space and in the place where it's very niche. Right. And so every other podcast that comes out, there's a little bit of competitiveness, like all of a sudden, like, who's this guy? Who's this new kid on the block? Right. Yeah. And then, but then like, after having met you, I'm so, I'm so grateful for having met you and that we can share this and we can work together and

And we can even help each other. Like, I don't see you, I honestly don't see you as a competition right now. I see you as a resource and a help. Awesome. And inspiration in many ways. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you've already heard. I mean, I'm not faking that myself. And yeah, I mean, I've met other podcasters where I thought I'd have the same conversation. We meet for a drink and then...

the other side just shuts down and becomes hostile. And I'm like, what the hell's the point of that? I just don't understand that. And it's not like I'm not competitive either. Like I said. - Like they don't wanna share trade secrets with you. - They don't wanna share anything. Yeah, and I'm like, oh, which studio do you use? I'm not telling you. - Wow. - Okay. - I feel like we were sharing everything the first time we met. - Totally. I mean, we had a couple of cocktails too, but no, I mean, that's the spirit in which I reached out to you. Like I had heard about your podcast. I reached out to all three of you separately.

And I've got to say, that's where your characters all came out. And I'm looking at you, Eric. Because now it's time to talk about Eric. Because let's bring some context. When we first met, it was just me and Howie. This is your first time actually meeting Eric. It is. And it's a pleasure. And we've just had a brief introduction for 10 minutes. You're being remarkably quiet. I appreciate that. But at the same time,

out of the three of you you were you were the most guarded when i reached out to you so with with you justin i think it was harry first i reached out to i think hey howie i heard your podcast i'm also a podcaster you know we should meet up you know we're doing the same thing great to know what you're doing justin is a bit a bit later but similar story and then eric i reached out to you and you were funny because your reply i wish i remembered it but it was it was like oh

Hi. Oh, you like the podcast? What's your three favorite podcasts from The Honest Drink? That's so him. I was like, okay. No, I mean, I appreciated it because I could have just been playing smoke up your ass. Like, oh, what does this guy want? You know? And you're like, okay, you said that you like it. Prove it. I want the three. And I was like, ah.

Okay. You are definitely yourself in the podcast because that's the side that I relate to most. Yeah, you're saying that he relates to you the most. Yeah, you guys are kindred spirits. I relate to you the most. Now, a couple of funny things. Now, I could talk all day as well. And we've developed a certain chemistry and we're also trying to calibrate as well. I think we have a great thing. Like we definitely...

really enjoy doing this and we've had our ups and downs and it's been a wild ride, you know, for a couple of years. And, and our feelings about the show, about each other have evolved over time as well. I mean, really ups and downs, like, I mean, 180 degrees, like the first, you know, batch of episodes, it was a lot of just like, we didn't really know what we were getting into, you know, and we're trying to find our footing. Recently,

As we start that same thought process, right? Because we're in about the same part of our journey. It's like, okay, well, what do we like about this? What do other people like about this? Where do we get our energy? And spending so much time together, doing something together, inevitably there's going to be much more friction. Jeff, we just had kind of an episode with him and Jeff quoted his quote,

I think grandmother? Grandmother. Grandmother and said, like, you can't really get anything done without friction. Friction creates sort of, you know, everything, right? Absolutely. And so we've started, you know, going through different periods of friction. I actually could start the show and be quite gregarious and stuff like that. But I think we have a good format where, you know, Justin sort of facilitates in the beginning, right? And different ideas come out and then we kind of take his lead on certain things. And so that's what you see, right? Is that we're trying to

let that side play out. You won't see Howie and I start the episode a lot and start firing away questions. I would love for you guys to do that, though. Right. But the thing is... I just want to make it... It's not like Justin's iron fist where it's like, am I lost? Totally. You've been keeping us down. Justin has Eric in a headlock right now. Exactly. Exactly. Come on, can you be a little bit... He turns off my microphone half the time. It's brutal.

But I think it goes back again to authenticity. This is what we're all trying to do. And there's so much information. Half of it is just bullshit. And so all you can do to try and fight that is to put out stuff that is real. That's the only way you can fight against it. I mean, you just use that as one example, but I think it speaks to the greater purpose. But then maybe I should ask you like, okay, you're doing this recalibration. So why are you doing this podcast? Have you figured that out?

Yeah. Once people know you have a podcast, right? And once you start doing a podcast, inevitably conversations with people in your community will come up about the podcast because people will be like, oh, you have a podcast. What's it about? Wait, let me interrupt you right there. And are you at the point now where you can say, I'm a podcaster or I have a podcast without feeling like you're a complete wanker?

Yeah, we have big egos. No, but I mean, to meet somebody at a party and they say, oh, I've got a podcast, like immediately I would like run away. Like, oh, you're that person. There's one wanker in every party and I am that wanker now. And I appreciate your view on that. And I suppose this goes back to some of your earlier very complimentary thoughts is that

The show is a metaphor for life. The show is a journey. The show is a way that we're going to improve as human beings. Please don't improve. I like your weaknesses. There's so many of them. I think that's what the thing is about the show, right? Like a lot of podcasts I listen to, not every single one, but the vast majority of the podcasts I listen to, they are trying very hard to incorporate a certain level of professionalism and intellectual expertise.

I guess. Absolutely well said. And to me, like, I feel like number one, like going back to what you guys are talking about, like with ego, there's definitely, you have to have a minimum base level of ego to even think to start a podcast in the first place, right? To think that people are going to want to listen to what you have to say. There's already inherently a base level of ego at play there. So that's, that's a given. But I just feel like for us, like, you know, it's therapeutic in the sense that like honesty is a very tough thing.

It's tough and it's scary. To be honest, we don't always achieve that. We're not always successful with that even on our show. But I think for me, the driving force behind, at least I'll speak for myself, behind doing this podcast is the constant attempt to achieve that honesty. Whether we fail or succeed, hey, but at least we're attempting and we're genuinely attempting to do that no matter what kind of conversation we're having.

And that to me is always combined with a genuine curiosity is always to me kind of like my North star.

Whenever I'm thinking like, oh, what is this show about for me? I'm here for the alcohol. So I'm just here to drink. I don't know. But I mean, one thing that I've always kept harping on and I always still bring up our backgrounds of being American, but also Chinese and the complexity of having both sides. Yeah.

So that to me is always the crux of whenever we have conversations, I'm always constantly trying to think from that perspective. What makes us different from everybody else? I mean, you want to talk about complexity of life. I mean, I'm sure there are thousands of podcasts out there that talk about the complexity of life. You want to talk about curiosity and stuff like that. There are thousands of podcasts that talk about curiosity, but I can't name one.

many podcasts that come from our perspective combining all that. That's it. That's it in a nutshell. I think it combines the content and you guys' identity because that's the two circles of the Venn diagram which you inhabit. And that's, I mean, I'm also conscious of that because I'm

white dude in Asia and I've got a podcast called Mosaic of China. So I've got to be very careful with the identity side when I do my podcast. I try and keep my guests to a minimal when it comes to other white guys because it's not a good look to have two white guys talking about China. And that's another thing where actually you have an inbuilt advantage just with your identities where you can talk to anyone. You can have

a whole parade of white guys in and you still are diverse because of you three whereas i'm always conscious of that interesting yeah totally totally it's part of my project is to have as diverse a slate of guests as possible so do you have like a white guy quota in terms of like it's like a china film quota i basically do i have a diversity audit i call it

And so because I can look at the whole season, so I do seasons of 30 episodes and it's on purpose so that I can look at that season and I can say, okay, what, how many Chinese people do I have? I try and get usually 10 out of 30 to be mainland Chinese.

And then out of the remaining 20, how do I split that in terms of nationality? Then I take a look at it again and I go, okay, that's just the identity side. What about what it is that they do? So I look, okay, how many do I have from the world of business? How many from arts? How many from science? How many from academia? And I make sure that that diversity is pretty well looked after. And then male, female, I have 50% male, 50% female. That's something which I will not negotiate on.

So if you look at my podcasts, it's literally boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl. And then it comes down to LGBT as well. I have LGBT representation. You wouldn't know it to listen to it, but one in five of my guests are LGBT or queer in some way. We don't talk about it. It's not an issue. It's not the focus, right? It's not the focus, but it's...

It's an underlying ethos in terms of what I'm doing, just to kind of riff off what you just said about your podcast. It's about celebrating the diversity of the human experience as well as

the fact that there is a universality. It's not about actually saying, oh, you're different. It's about saying you're different and we're all the same. I can enjoy the differences and I can poke at the differences and that's interesting, but ultimately the human experience is exactly the same. It doesn't have to be mosaic of China. It could be mosaic of Mozambique and it would be the exact same experience.

Yeah. I love that. So let's... Your turn to answer the question, Oscar. You see, guys, I managed to actually interview you guys on your show. You flipped the tables for a moment. It's all a deflection tactic because I don't have the answer either. Yeah. My situation is slightly different to yours. I started my podcast after I'd sold my company. So I had...

a headhunting company for 10 or 11 years. I managed to sell my entire share without being needed to stay with the company beyond the sale, which was quite rare to actually be able to walk away. And it happened at a time that I wasn't expecting it. And I never really had a plan B. Like, okay, I've sold my company now. If I was a true entrepreneur, I would have set up another company

But I realized, no, I don't want to do that. In fact, I'm quite allergic to the entire endeavor. I imagined people, you know, looking like, okay, what's he going to do next? You know, whether that was true or not, I don't know. Like expectation? The men's expectation. Yes, exactly. I was like, should I shemienze it here? Because I could have, I could have done a big like loss of faith after having, so I mean, what do I want to do? So there was a bit of the, what do I want to do that makes me happy? But what also can I do that

keeps me relevant. That was the ego side. And it's not just the ego, it's also what I enjoy, which is to be in the traffic of ideas. I think that's what I liked about being a headhunter. And I specifically headhunted heads of HR. So that always meant that I could meet somebody from the tech sector one meeting, it could be pharmaceuticals, the next meeting, it could be, you know, it could be artistic, the next one. So I was always

kept curious during my 10, 11 years as a headhunter. And I wanted to somehow have something that could emulate that without the trappings of headhunting, which I did not like. And there was quite a few at the stage where I mean, I was just burnt out. When I was at the end of my career, I actually had an ambassadorial role in my company where I didn't do much, but I got a lot of money by doing very little. I just was the face of the company in China. And now I'm working all the time on this podcast project and not getting any money at all.

But never felt happier. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say that. Yeah. It feels like it's what I should have always been doing. Now, like you guys, I don't know if what I'm doing is the best that I could be doing. I don't know how it's going to iterate in the future either. But it's a long way of answering that question. You know, I don't quite know now why I'm doing it. Because it's evolved to the extent that now it's slightly become a thing in its own right. And I don't want it to become...

something which I don't have control of, you know, something where it's a monster, which then I have to just keep on feeding somehow. And I know you guys go through this, right? I get you. Oh shit. I've got another episode coming up. We've got no guests. We've got nothing planned. Like what the hell do we do? And suddenly it's like, wait, this is supposed to be fun. Like, why am I putting pressure on myself? So I've, I've, I'm in that stage right this very moment when you're interviewing me, this is probably why it's on my mind. Cause I've, I've got a lot going on right now, which has started to stress me out.

And so now I'm thinking, what the hell am I doing? Why am I stressing myself out? I've got it into my head that I will do a big tour of China and interview all the people who are coming up in the next season who are outside of Shanghai. I want to interview them all in person. On the road? On the road. And I want to do that all face to face. Cool. That gives me a different perspective of China. It's not meant to be mosaic of Shanghai. Yeah. And then here's where it gets really wonky because...

If you have two good ideas, sometimes they can clash and it becomes one big stupid motherfucking idea. And that's kind of what's happened now because I had another idea. So in my podcast, I,

I have a second part of every interview where I ask everyone the same 10 questions. So there's a freestyle part at the beginning, and then there's a formulaic part in the second half. Yeah, like the rapid round. It's the rapid round. And that's, I love it because you get a very different style in those two parts. And then you can compare how 30 different people in the season answer the same question from their different backgrounds, different perspectives. And that's great to compare. Yeah.

I had the idea that, oh, you know what? I could try and get sponsors for those 10 questions. So I don't like the idea of sponsorship, but I could have the question on what's your favorite destination in China. I could have a travel agent sponsor that question and say, question two brought to you by blah, blah, blah is. And so that was a great idea. But now I've got three days before I start the bloody interviews. And so I was writing a proposal about sponsorship, which I've never done.

and reaching out to people saying hey um what about this for an idea with no proven track record and stressing myself out like an idiot but now when i go to my first interview what do i say do i actually have to ask two different versions of the questions one if i get this sponsor one if i don't have a spot what the hell am i going to do and i haven't worked it out and i'm just sat there going this is a weekend and i'm stressed out sending proposals out why am i doing that and part of that is

the vestigial business side of me, which I can't help but create something out of this project. And I'm thinking, why am I doing that? That's not why I started. And yet I need it almost as a kind of proof of concept that if I can get more buy-in,

then it proves the concept more to me. And I'm thinking, is that why I'm doing it? Does that go back to your ego? Is that the ego speaking? I think it is. But it's also, I'll tell you what it also is. It is because I'm proud of the content and I need to find creative ways that people will amplify my content. Yes. And that still is, I hope, what drives me. You know, when I lie in bed and question myself, like, why am I doing it? I hope it's that latter explanation and not so much the ego side. Yeah.

So part of my psyche is to overcomplicate things. It sounds like, don't take this the wrong way, it sounds like it's really tough being you in the sense that like,

There's this duality to you and they're conflicting and they're constantly bumping up against each other because everything that you're saying that brings you stress and pressure now was all brought on by yourself, seeking them out, you know? Totally. So it's this constant like tug of war. Oh, you are watching a midlife crisis before your eyes. I was going to bring that up. I'm a walking midlife. I mean, okay, let me tell you.

what this is because when I talked to you before about when you meet somebody at a party, are you confident to say I'm a podcast without feeling that you are a wanker, right? Imagine if when you meet somebody at a party and the answer is I'm retired. Like that's the stuff that I'm dealing with because that actually is my status. I've sold my company and I'm basically not going to work again. I'm retired.

And when you meet somebody at a party and they say they retired, I mean, why are you here? You might as well just be dead. What relevance do you have? You know? So I think the side that is fighting the, that, you know, people say, oh, you've retired. Great. You can just do what you want and you can go into obscurity. Going to absolute irrelevant obscurity is to me, a scary chasm to look into. And I think that,

That is the conflict. The conflict is, no, I am retired. I have this amazing luxury of doing what I want. And at the same time, the conflict is, I want to remain relevant. I still have value to society. It's the value to society. Yeah. It's kind of, it's really hard. It is like, what the hell is it all about? Why are we doing anything?

When you are not defined by what you do, then actually, who are you? These are the big questions that you don't have time to ask yourself while you're busy working. None of you have really done that, I'm sure. You are what you're doing and you're a podcaster on top. You have multiple identities. I can guarantee you, like...

The average person would come up to you, like a worker, right? Would come to you and be like, oh my god, I'm so jealous of you. You're retired? I mean, you have no worries, right? I mean, I have to accept that. I mean, of course, I've created all the bullshit myself. Ultimately, intrinsically, you're absolutely right. And I have to keep on saying that. I have to keep on saying that. But I'm a total idiot. And I won't take that as the gift that it is. I will overcomplicate things.

in a way that this is exactly why I relate to Eric. Because Eric is, out of the three of you, the least sort of happy-go-lucky. You're the person who overthinks, over-questions,

And that's why I really feel for you, because I'm sure if you were in my position, you'd be just as gnarled up as I am. I feel like we should definitely bring that up because Eric was not there when we were together, like talking. And he did say that, like he felt that this relationship with Eric. And then would you bring up, you brought up your Excel and you're like, I wish I could show Eric the Excel that I made. Oh, I should have brought it.

Oh, Eric can pull out many Excel's right now. I would love to compete with you with the number of worksheets I have for the podcast, the workflows, and they're all color coded. Oh my God, they're beautiful. Eric's getting competitive now. He's like thinking, you don't have more than me, Oscar. Oh, maybe not. What I was thinking in my head was I was, well, first of all, I was listening very carefully to what you were saying. And second of all, um,

You had some really great nuggets in there, right? And I wrote some of these things down because the way it, you know, to hear someone else articulate something that you might be feeling is a learning experience. And you're articulating in a way where, you know, I'm always struggling to find the right words just because that's how I am, right? I want to find the right words so that I can voice out what I'm thinking. I was having a lunch conversation today and with two friends and who are like leadership coaches, right?

And we were talking about sort of introvert and extrovert, and they're kind of, you know, very trained up on this stuff. And one way to look at it is that extroverts just need to talk things out. So you ask them a question like, how are you feeling? Or what'd you do today? And then you get like a 10 minute response. And introverts are kind of like, you ask them a question, it's almost like you have to ask them like three times. And they're like, why don't you say anything? And they're like, because I'm thinking. Yeah.

So I, my brain is on, you know, kind of, my brain is outside of my skull sometimes, you know, and, and I'm kind of talking through these things. So listening to you, you know, brings both internal reflection, but then also like I'm external to you. So I'm kind of like, well, what advice would I give or what questions would I ask? Right. And so a few things that I noticed is that number one is like your inner voice is really loud, right?

Okay. Just like mine is just like all of us, but like your inner voice is really, really loud. It's telling you all these things. And sometimes it's telling you some great things like, Oh, like Oscar, you're great. And then sometimes your inner voice is telling you, you're not good enough. You're not doing enough. What you're doing is not enough.

And this whole notion of being relevant, it's almost like your inner voice is reflecting your own insecurities. That other person actually doesn't give a shit, potentially, right?

But you're like, oh, I'm not relevant to myself almost. It's not that other person, right? At what point did achieving things and being relevant, when did that start mattering to you? Because I could pinpoint when it started mattering to me. I mean, like it was like five years old, you know, or six years old. So at what point did it matter to you?

The status of being a successful business owner was quite important for the reasons that Justin, you pointed out right at the beginning of our conversation, which is I am a silly, flamboyant, funny, ridiculous person. I didn't say all those things.

That's the way I'm projecting my own views. That's the way you took it. I'm basically a jokester. I'm a jokester. When you meet me, I am the person who will not take anything seriously. And so I enjoyed the juxtaposition of being that person and then somebody later on saying, oh, but he owns his own business and it's successful. And I quite enjoyed that status part because it offset my ridiculousness. So

without that status uh that's where i feel that it's coming from i need to have some serious side to offset the silliness and i think that's also where you know i like to delve into thoughtful topics on the podcast without being too ridiculous also to offset when you meet me i'm not i'm not going to say one thing that's serious i realized that when i went into business that

I needed to have something to offset the silliness, which I just can't help projecting. Why do you feel like you need that validation? Was there some point where you were being silly where it wasn't appropriate for the moment? Oh, totally. Why can't you just be silly? Because, I mean, it's never... I mean, I think I'm good at...

subverting the expectation. So I quite like being silly in a business context where the expectation is that you're going to do a serious talk here. Like you're a presenter at this conference and you're going to make a joke about poo. But that's everyone laughs because it's subverting expectations. Were you the class clown? I wasn't the class clown. No, no, no, not at all.

But you didn't want to conform. Like, you're not for conformity. I'm quite a conformist, yeah. Are you? What a paradox. It's a total paradox. I'm a conformist...

trapped in a non-conformist body. It's like Jekyll and Hyde with you. Green Day, man. The opposite of Green Day. Walking Contradiction. But that's why this project, it really, it speaks to what I am and what I do. I can control the way that I've done the podcast in a way that it really is a manifestation. That's the word that you use. It's a manifestation of my fucked up character.

in the way that there is a lot of complexity and a lot of control behind it. Absolutely. Yeah, we were quite impressed when you were explaining how you organize your shows and each season, you know, based off of all the different tabs. And just like you said, like making sure that you have this male-female ratio that's going back and forth, making sure that out of every five guests,

somebody is an lgbt community or etc etc i mean that just shows that it's actually the mosaic of oscar you know it's not the mosaic of china it's the mosaic of oscar oscar's got a lot going on here it's very specifically it's very specifically curated yes and that if there's any political aspect to what i'm doing it is that it's like i am actually quite i'm quite passionate about

showing people that diversity is a good thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, hence the name Mosaic, right? It has to fit like the DNA of what you're all about. Do you know what? So Mosaic wasn't the first name that I came up with. What was it? What was the first name? I had a really good idea, but it ended up being racist.

Oh, you got to share it now. Yeah, what's this? I'm not sure as Americans you know this, but the Americans, in America you have a game called telephone, right? The idea is that I whisper something into your ear, it gets passed on, and then the person at the end will say something, and it will end up having been completely different to what was first said, right? Everyone's nodding. In England, that is called Chinese whispers. Oh.

Why is it called Chinese Whispers? Well, I thought there was nothing wrong about it. I was like, that was my first idea. Because it actually is. It conveys this passing on element. It's in China. Perfect. Then I did the research and it comes back from, I think when we're doing the opium wars. This is the British, right? And it was in the Qing Empire where the Qing Empire was in disarray.

And it was like how the mandarins of the Qing Empire would communicate and they would get garbled up from one mandarin to the other mandarin. And so it was, you know how every country, when they're fighting another country, they put, you know, they call them the worst things. Like I think when the French and the English were fighting, the English would say, oh, homosexuality, which obviously wasn't a good thing back then.

That's the French disease. And the French, I found out, would say la malade anglaise was homosexuality. The English disease. They would call each other what they didn't like, right? So when you're at war, or when you're just generally at loggerheads, you would attribute bad qualities. You try to dehumanize the other people. Or just if there's a bad thing, you would attribute it to your enemy, right? Right, because if you were practicing understanding of the other culture,

and trying to understand their perspective, then you probably wouldn't be in a war. The fact that you're in a war is because you think that these people are hopeless. Oh, no, it's...

I mean, look at Trump, the China disease. It's the same. It's been going on since Voltaire. This is something which is not new, not just China. It's the West and the East. We always use the other side as a foil as to what we either want to do or what we'd rather avoid. When you look at it from the bigger context, China versus the West. I mean, in America, I think you have something called a Chinese fire alarm.

Oh, is it called the Chinese car alarm? Yeah, you get out of the car. Exactly. It's the same racist trope where, oh, the Chinese are panicking and they're going round and round. It's the same thing. Anyway, so that's a little bit of a detour. But that's why in the end I was like, oh, maybe I shouldn't call it Chinese whispers.

That's funny. Yeah. Well, that saved you. You did the research. Imagine if you didn't do the research and today we're talking to Oscar from Chinese Whispers. Chinese Whispers with the season two Chinese fire alarm. Chinese three, Chinese virus. Like, oh God. Then you get that post like Honest Drink is so racist. They invite racist people on the show, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. I sidestepped that one. Yeah. Well, Oscar, there's a few things I want to unpack with you. Um,

Can I pour my drink while you're asking? Oh, please. I've been waiting for you to pour more for yourself. Can you smash some more ice, Eric? I think you didn't smash enough. Please, please. Okay, good. No, but like you were talking before about like the midlife crisis and this is, you know, some of our earliest episodes were revolved around this issue because this is kind of was like one of the genesis. That was our catalyst. So I just find that really fascinating. And I'm wondering from your standpoint of like, you know,

Would you classify your crisis as a struggle with, you know, we talked about ego, but would it be, I guess, maybe down to your identity? Because you're talking about like who you are and these dualities, these split sides you have. Would you boil all that down simply to a sense of identity? I mean, again, we're in a period where I'm stressed out. I've stressed myself out. So I don't know how I would answer this question in a different time.

But right now, the timing is such that I'm stuck in China for two years. And I wonder to what extent that is the underlying reason why I am really going crazy. Because I've lived in Asia now for 18 years. And until now, it's always been a plus. It's been a plus.

I have whatever my baseline is, me living in Asia, it adds something to it. It's just always been an augmentation of my ideas, the things that otherwise I wouldn't think about. I can look at Europe, I can look at the States from an inside-outside perspective that I've always enjoyed in a way that I know that if I was still in my day job in London, I wouldn't really have the wherewithal, I wouldn't have the tools to even know how to question my own culture.

Now that I have not been able to escape China or set foot outside of China for one day in two years, for the first time, I feel like it's becoming a minus. Something is taking me away from what I should be doing. It's a weird thing that I can't articulate. I've just started to think of it in these terms. Can you put your finger on it in terms of what it might be?

It's a pressure valve that needs to be released for me. When I've lived in Asia, we have thought of it as a right almost that every three or four months we can go to a different place, reset, and then look forward to coming home to China.

I would even say it in those terms, or home to if I lived in Hong Kong, or when I was in Singapore, or when I was in Japan. I'm coming home and I'm looking forward to my home and my life in this country. I never, never use the word expat. I hate that word expat with such a passion because there's no distinction between me and another economic migrant. I'm just a migrant. I've chosen to be here for economic reasons. This is my home. And I'm engaged and I'm

in this society as an active person, right? Without that pressure valve being released, the negativity of being in any strong culture, and China is a strong culture, especially right now, is I think building up, which is, I think, the main reason why I'm not just skipping down the road in my happy-go-lucky phase. And you've talked about this on the podcast too, because we are in the world of content production, right?

And that puts me in a situation where I'm responsible for putting things out into the world. And I've got to be happy with that content in a way that feels authentic. Yes, that's a personal thing, but also involves the right level of nuance that is balanced between, let's say, China and the outside world. So I feel the crisis is I've built this project, which I am proud of. I love it. And now I have to work out

Yeah, my mindset is not in the same place that it was two years ago. So perhaps that's what's creating this negativity and making me question, like, what am I doing? This is what a midlife crisis is. It's what am I doing? And why am I doing it, right? Or maybe you're just getting a little bit of cabin fever. Yeah, it's not just cabin fever. I mean, you're right. I don't want to talk over you. It's more than just that, because it's tied in with what I'm doing, what I'm doing day in, day out.

which is presenting this case for understanding cross-cultural communication and fun at a time when perhaps I'm not entirely having the most fun being in a country that I've loved to live in. That's something which I don't think I can change because I love being in China and I love escaping China. And when one of those outlets is not open to me,

then I feel that this is the first time in 18 years that I feel like I'm missing out on not being elsewhere in the world right now. Let me ask you this. What do you do to relax? What do you do to de-stress? I'm giving out the impression that I'm stressed. I'm not. I'm stressed right now. And I can't really relax because I've got a bunch of stuff to do and a time limit, which is impossible. So I'm just at a crunch point. Normally, I'm fine.

I do enjoy traveling. And when I travel within China, I mean, we talked about this, I think, before we were on mic. Being in China has allowed us to not take the week off and go somewhere else, but to explore parts of China we otherwise would never have bothered seeing. So that stuff is important, but it is still China. It's this monolithic culture becoming more and more monolithic. Even when I try and seek out the...

you know, more exotic sides of China. I see the monolithic China encroaching into that side of China as well, which then it's a negative loop where I actually, I wanted to have an ersatz foreign experience. You know, I've come to this part of China and I want to experience a substitute for going to

outside of China, you know. And I feel, especially recently, that, you know, the Han Chinese culture is really, you know, really all pervasive, even in the outer reaches, even in, you know, the places where you want to seek out minority cultures. So I, you know, I cannot get that release even, you know, within these interesting and exotic and wonderful parts of China.

So, yeah, I mean, I do have the outlets for stress. And I'm, you know, you're talking to me at a peak stress time, which is nothing compared to other people. Like, boo-hoo. Boo-fucking-hoo, right? It's not a big deal. You know, even as I'm saying I'm stressed, I'm like, I'm not really stressed compared to other people's lives. I mean, for God's sake, Oscar. So...

It is a, there's a natural sort of flow where I will, I will get stressed and then I'll do this self-evaluation and going, you're being a complete twat. And I will have some kind of outlet and then I will come down again. It's not a constant state of stress. Well, how, how has being a Brit and having the experiences and spending the time you have in China and seeing it as a home, how, how has your perspective changed over time? You feel like,

in terms of, I mean, we don't need to get all political, but in terms of the kind of climate we live in these days internationally, how have your experiences and, I guess, time here shaped you in terms of changing your perspective? So with this going back to identity, so my passport is British. So we started off this, you said, being a Brit. I am a British citizen, but

My family were refugees from the Czech and Slovak republics, or Czechoslovakia, as it was in 68. We're also Jewish, so that's part of my identity. I'm gay. I mean, all of these parts of my identity, they mean that I never really feel like I'm an insider. I mean, I've never really been the Brit. I've been the weird Brit with a name that sounds weird. I mean, my name is not English. I've been...

Eating weird food at home, which my friends at school can't understand. I've been Jewish, I've been gay. Those are things that put you on the outside of mainstream society. Less so now, but certainly when I was growing up. So I've never really felt like I've changed. When I've been here, I've been able to skirt above mainstream society when it suits me.

or delve into some kind of mainstream society when it suits me. That's kind of how I've lived my life anywhere in the world, which I guess is why I am this diversity sort of person. I mean, it's just part of who I am. So it hasn't really made a big difference until now. And at the same time,

I've created this identity of being the China guy, right? Where you're in the firing line from both sides. I'm sure you've talked about this with previous guests, where if you say anything critical about China, then you hate China. And if you say anything positive about China, then the other side will say you're a China freak. Like, I don't even recognize you anymore.

And so that, you know, that side is now counting against me, you know, and I don't enjoy being that person. Do you feel that? I mean, even your home base, your home, your family in the UK, I'm assuming that your parents or other family relatives are there. Like, do you guys have that type of conversation where they're kind of like... Frankly, no, because they won't listen to the podcast because they're not interested in China. This is the problem with my whole conceit because I have created a niche, which is for

people who are interested in learning about China through the lives of human beings. Done. That's my elevator pitch. It's about learning about a different culture. I mean, most of the stories aren't even about China. It's just peripherally, these people live in China and these things happen. And you can, you know, learn by osmosis something about China in every episode. Done. But I can't reach...

the people outside of China who would rather China was blasted off the fucking planet. You know, they're not going to... Because they wouldn't be listening to you in the first place. They're not going to engage with a podcast called Mosaic of China. And that's a mistake in the name. But then it's also the people who are here in China.

where a lot of the guys, and I'm saying guys, because it's normally the kind of middle class, middle-aged white guy who I'm thinking of, you know, in terms of my podcast, they are the kind of people who think they know everything about China. And how can I learn anything from anyone else? Because I am Mr. China expert. Too cool for school. It's this ridiculous, it's this mix of, you know,

over, they're overly confident and they're privileged because they've lived in Asia and they, you know, this privilege somehow seeps into their consciousness and they can't live, they can't learn something new from anybody else, you know? So I've created a niche that no one wants. I've created a niche that, you know, the people who are in China, they're only the people who are nicely curious and want to learn about other people. And it's the same kind of people outside of China and everyone else I can't reach.

Yeah. So again, I don't know what the question was, but yeah, that's sort of where I've ended up with the project. We were talking about me being stressed and this whole identity side. The identity side is something which I do struggle with because I don't want to be the China guy, even though I am the China guy as well. Yeah. I think at least the reason why I asked my question is because previously on shows we've

discussed our identities as Asian Americans living here, sometimes feeling lost between both sides. But you being in Asia for 18 years, you

to generalize being a white guy, right? Like how do you identify- - To be racist. - Being a racist white guy. Yeah, come on, give me my full title. - He's like, "Just to be racist, a white guy." Right? But just like finding that identity, being here for 18 years, talking with, I'm sure, a very diverse group of family, friends from past and now,

you know, like where does that, where do you sit now because of the climate, the recent climate? Yeah. I mean, it's something where maybe I have a different experience to you. Yeah. It's, it's actually, you know, in one of my episodes, it was the finale of season two. I talked with, I've got to be careful what I say, because you probably, if I say the word, you might not be able to get down. So it was somebody who had transitioned. We're talking about gender. And that was a fascinating moment.

story in a way that made me think about my experience. Because the thing about people who have transitioned is, it's a controversial topic, but it's the word passing. So if you can pass as the gender which you feel, then that allows you to get through life without coming under too much external pressure. That's what passing means. So if someone who has transitioned or is in the process of transitioning, if they pass for the gender that they

that they feel, then they are in a privileged position. Wait, wait, I'm still not clear about this concept of passing. What do you mean, passing? Passing. So let's, okay, using just the grammar. So here is Justin, and you can pass as someone who is quite educated. It's about your external perception, how you are perceived externally.

Oh, so not like how other people are viewing you. Yeah, how other people view you. Okay. So I can't think of another example. Okay, he passes as a pianist because he can just about get away with it. Well, I mean, like a completely far off example is like Thomas Jefferson's children with Sally Hemings. And there were a couple of them that could pass as white men. That's it.

So there's a racial version of it. There's a gender version of it. All kinds of things manifested in different ways. People will... You can, if you decide to act that way, you can pass and be considered by someone else as part of that tribe, even if...

It's that person is from the same tribe. Right. It's legitimacy. That's all it is. It is. And then in the context of the interview that I did, what was fascinating to me was like there is a hierarchy because within this community, there's a hierarchy of people who have the resources to afford them the operations, to afford them the makeup, to afford them the kind of couture that will help them pass.

So it's to do with your resources. It's a classism. And then the genetic lottery, like if you happen to be born in a body which is hard to pass, but you still identify as a different gender, for example. So all of this is to talk about you guys in China. You can pass. So you have a lot more flexibility because when you want to, you can pass as a Chinese person. Whereas I'm a walking advert for who I am.

And I think that's a different aspect that maybe, you know, because you are all the same, you are all American Asians, that's the diversity aspect that you might lack in your perspectives of living in China. It's not a terrible experience to live in China as a white person. It's fine. But you do understand the microaggressions. You do understand that. And I mean, let me put it this way. When...

If I ever got involved in a situation where the police were involved, there is no way I would imagine the police would be on my side as a white person. Like, whatever happens, the tendency would be for them to, like, I'm in trouble here. Which...

I think a Chinese person listening to that would go, what do you mean? The police, they're here just to be safe. What are you talking about? You're just, you're this aggressive white person, whatever. In exactly the same way that a black person in America would feel about the police. It gives you this perspective which you would never have had. You would never have had. And just the way that, okay, let's say it was a year ago now. I was in Lijiang Airport.

And it was post-COVID. And there was this table set up and they were pointing to everyone who did not look Chinese to come and sign extra paperwork. I was with an Asian American. He wasn't an American passport. I had been actually in China longer than him. I haven't left for two years. He had, you know, at that point he had been here less. He's more susceptible to having had COVID than I was. But I was the one who had to go and sign the extra stuff.

it's nothing like i had to walk through jingan park i went all the way through jingan park before the guard came and dragged me back all the way to the i was almost at the end but he dragged me all the way to the front because i was white i was like um i'm wearing a mask that person's not wearing a mask i could speak not bad chinese enough to talk to the guard you know and he was like no well you have to get out of the park tiny things like that

affect your experience where it's not life-threatening in other parts of the world it could be life-threatening but i think that's where i would say to your answer about my identity in china it's absolutely fine i have a privileged existence here but i get i just get the strong sense no matter where i go in china that this is you know this is china is for the chinese right now well

I totally get what you're saying. And I do realize that like, as you know, given our identity, we do kind of have some sort of privilege in that context here because we look Chinese, right? We're ethnically Chinese. But do you feel, and I'm like, I'm really curious because this is, this could just be from my own personal perspective.

Right. But do you feel that there is some some sort of some sliver of it being refreshing that at least the microaggressions, at least that layer of if we want to call it racism, I guess we can call it racism. Right. Is is kind of just more.

and transparent here. Whereas like, you know, if you know you're a white guy and they're calling you, they're not hiding the fact that they're profiling based on you being a foreigner and white. Whereas maybe in other places of the world, they'll do the same thing, but they'll hide it and they'll deny it. Yeah. You know, so I'm wondering, does that make a difference at all in

in terms of how you feel about it, or not really, and at the end of the day, it's profiling, it's profiling. Yeah, it's of course the latter. Of course. And this is where, you know, if you were saying that, this is where I want you to have an experience like this as Americans, to go back and then you would understand the black experience in America. Yeah.

And I think they would be able to answer the same question. Like, no, anything is the same. Like, if it's overt or covert, they're both the same thing. The result is the same. Yeah. I mean, it's actually, there are places worse than here. So I don't want to bash on China for this one aspect. And these tiny little things that happened in two years, because I still love being in China.

But yeah, it's palpable. And especially without this escape, that's what starts to build up. It's that resentment that I never usually would have felt. Well, it feels like it's intensifying given the political climate. Totally. Yeah. Well, even yesterday we were discussing... We had a whole conversation. I mean, we don't have to go too deep about it, but I'll use myself as an Asian American holding a US passport. Yeah.

I'm already feeling some of the, like when people find out that I am American, right? There's already this little bit of like, you know what I mean? Like, hmm, should we work together? Or, you know what I mean? Like that kind of feel, like this underlying prejudice almost. And even being Chinese looking, ethnically Chinese, like,

I mean, as a joke, I was saying like... Because on my bio, when I was a director, I have to send out my bio to get jobs and stuff like that. It clearly states in the first line, I'm born in America, et cetera, et cetera. It's like...

Should I take that out? You know what I mean? Like maybe I should take it out because these days, the climate, it's a lot more sensitive, you know, being an American, especially as an American, Australian, American, UK. Yeah. And this is a self erasure. I mean, this is when people talk about erasure. That's, that's exactly what you're literally erasing your identity for to be able to pass. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not a comfortable decision. But of course, there's no black and white. I think in every interaction, we are making very quick decisions based on, okay, to what extent do I, you know, reveal that part of my identity or not, right? And this ties into like, because as you were, you gave me a new perspective, like talking to you, and I didn't never really...

realized it before, but when you were talking about your identity, when I, you know, called you a Brit and you're like, well, I'm many other things, including a Brit, but I'm Jewish, I'm gay, I'm a lot of things. And...

- It struck me and it was a revelation to me because we've talked about the idea of third culture, right? And from our personal experiences, you know, we've talked before about this feeling of thinking, feeling like we are third culture kids 'cause of our, you know, we're from the States, but we're living in China and we don't feel like we are fully 100% accepted in either place. And that puts us in this kind of third culture space

Or we feel like maybe we're a little lost. We don't know what home is necessarily. And when you were talking about your own identity, I feel like that is just even more of like, even more dynamic of a situation given all the things that you identify with. And so how do you deal with this situation?

feeling of identity, feeling of belonging, feeling of like what your tribe is, what your home is, all that comes into play. And I, yeah, I can't, I can't really imagine like how it feels for you. You're right. You're actually right. Yeah. That's, I think that's built, that's built my self-awareness because I do question, I mean, I have time to question it. I'm not in a full-time job, so maybe that's also a function of why. But yeah, I mean, that's when I listened to your podcast, going back to the whole podcast conversation,

I do feel that you guys, you say third culture, I would call your perspective quite binary. You are China versus America, which is great. But when you say that, and then you talk in terms of West versus East, that's when I think, is this West versus East? This is just China, US. And I appreciate it when you say China versus US, which are your two perspectives. But I've lived in

four different places in Asia. So I, I, you know, when we talk about, you know, using big words like West versus East, I actually like to have that. Everything is nuanced, right? Yeah. So it, it is a really weird place to be in one way. It's a gift because I can look at things from 13 different angles in a way that that's my superpower actually. Yeah.

And of course, the same superpower is a big weakness because, yeah, I can never relate to people in a way that, look, I'm your people, so listen to me. You know, this is what we should all be thinking because no one really relates in the same way. You know, I'm a European from Eastern Europe and the UK. I've lived in Germany. And I married an American. He's Californian. And we met in Asia. So already...

It's three. This is why we didn't actually have a wedding. We eloped. Because to have a wedding where his family from the States, mine from Europe, and all our friends from Asia. It means that I fit everywhere and I fit nowhere. That's beautiful, though, to me. I feel like that should be the way we should be moving towards. Kind of, but... As a society. But...

This is why, yeah, what I was saying was you fit everywhere, but you fit nowhere at the same time. That's, that's the dichotomy. That's again, it's this duality. Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned a few things that I wanted to, um, comment on and, and, you know, have a dialogue on. Okay. So, um, the first thing you mentioned was this notion of being, uh, white, Caucasian, you know, from your, this, this, um,

in China experiencing, feeling microaggression sometimes, right? Not blending in. Maybe the feeling that the same rules don't apply to everyone, right? And we can definitely relate to that, right? I think we're also all saying that

um, that there are much more extreme versions of this. So experiencing this in our own way, and it's not everywhere, right? Cause we're going to experience it as well. Um, but gives us perspective on what other people have gone through. And it's important for us to understand what other people are going through. Uh, it's really important for us to understand that, to have gratitude, to have balance and perspective and to understand we're not alone in this, right? We're

A lot of people are experiencing it. It's the human condition that Justin talks about, right? And when we're fighting for social justice, right? Because these are annoyances and nuisances for us most of the time. But when you get shot because of your skin color, then it's a matter of life and death. And so I think there's a certain level of

of allyship and just like supporting that cause that we know that there's still parts of the world, even the places that we're from where this is still happening. And it's really, really unfortunate. And so we're not trying to, of course, equate our experience to that. But we are saying that we hope that in experiencing some of these things in a very minimal way, that it gives us more empathy for those things. And if more people experience even a small shock

Then they might think twice about actually making other people go through this experience. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I appreciate your point there. From our perspective, and it's just the dialogue that's really important because then we could take this judgmental view over the years that, oh, Caucasian people can get away with anything in China.

And they have certain privileges and stuff like that. Which is generally true. It's true. But it's important for us to get your perspective. There's always a microscope in some ways on you because visually you're identifiable. And so, yeah, of course people all know that I'm not from here because it's just by the way we dress, all that stuff. True. But at least I can kind of blend into the point where I'm not like a zebra and a bunch of horses. So in that sense, my mindset is,

doesn't my inner voice doesn't get activated to say, Oh, I'm different. And people are pointing me out because some of this could just be in your head also. Right. But it's also a reality that because you look so different that you're going to have that inner voice. Whereas we look similar enough where I don't have my inner voice, like activated that loud. Right. Um, then I think the other point is that like, we're navigating this multicultural world. Right. And connectivity, um,

there's more and more connectivity. I was chatting with a

A Canadian friend that I met in Sashi over WeChat today, and he was listening to podcasts like connectivity creating conflict. And he was like, I think that's a bunch of horse shit, right? You know, connectivity is neutral, but connectivity is, he was saying it was very different because you used to build a road from A to B, from B to C, and eventually you could get from A to C. And it's very, very linear, point A to point B. But with connectivity now, you can literally draw a line from any point to any other point, right?

And so where is the responsibility kind of lie? So we're navigating this very complex world. And we're sometimes we're going to be the majority, right? We're going to have the force of the majority. We're going to be like in the in group in the in tribe. And we don't have to think about things because we can just blend in with the masses.

And sometimes we're going to be part of the minority and we're going to face certain types of headwinds. And almost everyone experiences that. Even if you're a white Caucasian WASP in the US, like they have inner voices too, right?

Right? I mean, they don't write the books just for like minorities. I think they write all those books, psychology books, because like Caucasian Americans also have a lot of fucked up mental issues just like we do, right? And so everyone is going to paint themselves as a victim sometimes. And so I think the question is, okay, how do we have the dialogue? Because what I was thinking earlier was that we, Justin, myself, and how we have the benefit of each other, we can talk through these things.

And we use the show as self-therapy and self-reflection. And we use the show as a collective identity because we're not alone. And you're in a way you're alone because you want to control everything. And in that sense, and it's a little bit more lonely, but I think it's like, how do we create this positive, supportive, open framework? Because it's really important to know that you're not alone. There's fucking a hundred billion people that have lived on this planet for you to think that you're the only one that has problems because

is foolish. So I think it's like, then how do you look forward, right? How do we create a support network and plan so that we can be mentally healthy and happy about ourselves? That's what I think we're both doing with our projects. It is about putting that message out there. And you do have the advantage of having the three of you, and mine is much more solitary. But I do...

When I meet every guest, I mean, I do get that energy. It's just not as intimate as what you can do over the course of two years, just day in, day out, meeting each other. I think the idea of connectivity is a tricky one because that was the ideal of what the internet would be, right? We would all be connected and then it would be this marketplace of ideas where the best ideas would come out. But the problem with connectivity is that we connect with what we already possess.

field is correct. And then we go into our echo chambers and we only are connecting with the ones who agree with our own ideas. So, you know, that word is a bit triggering because it's not working. You know, it's what, it's what the world should have been. And we can send garbage down the network with ease now, which is a problem. That's the problem.

So all, I mean, all we can do, yes, I mean, the way forward is to do what we're doing, you know, and to have open dialogues and to put out stuff that helps to bridge the misunderstandings that are from point A to Z, you know. But I mean, it's slightly depressing because, you know, I think about when, if you think about the way things might progress, it's not necessarily a happy ending, you know, where are we going now, right? Yeah.

So, yeah, I like to think of the idea of, yes, we're not in this alone. Let's all join hands. But then, you know, the bastards are winning right now. That's the problem. But there have been, like, I mean, I'm not a huge...

I am a fan of history, but I would say I'm not hugely knowledgeable. But if I've kind of observed the patterns, throughout history, there have just consistently, consistently been bleak moments. There have just consistently been bleak moments, way bleaker than now.

And somehow mankind has kind of pulled through and found solutions. And there are these people that are sending positive messages down the network, right? That are really trying to improve the network, improve the connectivity, send better messages, right? Get rid of the negative messages. And so I just have to think that it's easy for us to kind of zoom in on our moment and say that it's kind of bleak or there's issues with it and worry about where this is going.

And at the same time, there's not a whole lot we can do about it. That's the thing. There's really nothing you could do about it. I mean, but just start sending more positive messages down the pipe. Yep. Interpreting the messages you're getting in the most positive way, you know, and helping people embrace that and just kind of like let the chips fall where they may. But I think overall...

Like we're safe and, you know, we have access to resources. Yeah, but I feel like what you just mentioned about how history has played out and there always has been that, the good that has come out. But, I mean, one thing I feel like I want to point out is that it's always after the destruction. You know, it's after where the rubble...

through the rubble comes out the good, you know? If anything, the history proves that it's cyclical. So it's like you're going back into the deep and then into the darkness and then you eventually come back out of the light. Because you can only come out. The only light can come out. And that's the, I think that's the scary part because we have not hit the destruction part yet. You know what I mean? And we don't know

what that is going to be like. I mean, but at the same time, what I think what I'm trying to pull from what Eric is saying is that he's, you don't want to fall into the trap of just swimming in the negativity, you know, and then you feel like there's no hope. And I agree with you. I agree that you can't allow yourself to fall into that trap. And it's so easy to fall in that trap, especially today with the connectivity that we're talking about.

With the echo chamber that we're talking about, it's easy just to just, because it's easy just to listen and agree, right? It's hard to disagree and really challenge what you thought. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's cure this, guys. The four of us. Okay. Let's hold hands. Let's sing a song. We're going to solve this. We're going to solve this. Can I end with a quote? Please do. All right.

I mean, not to be a Debbie Downer on all of the pessimism. Well, even more. So, yeah, I mean, I think that, look, there are a lot of bleak things that have happened. I don't think we're going to predict the bleak things that are going to happen in the future by looking at the past. I think there's going to be bleak things that happen, but they're going to surprise us. They're going to be things that we never thought of. And that's how...

the future works, right? So I don't think we're going to look to the past and be like, oh, this kind of stuff, bad stuff. And then, oh, this is the bad stuff that's going to happen in the future. Shit's going to happen. And when it happens, you're not going to know. It's going to land right on you, right? And so there's a certain resilience and optimism that we just all have to practice. And when we're in good times, we just have to remember that there are bad times.

And then when we're in bad times, we just need to, you know, I mean, it's easy for me to say this during good times, but I think during the good times, you really, really have to appreciate it. We are in good times now. And I don't want to get to the point where there's bad times and be like, fuck man, I wish I could go back to the good times. Every time I get sick physically, I'm like, why don't I just appreciate my life normally? Because I'm so miserable right now. And so the quote I wanted to share is from Thomas Jefferson. And he just said, how much pain they have cost us

the evils which have never happened. Yeah. It's kind of almost similar to the idea of like, like nine out of 10 of your concerns are unfounded. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And I do want to, one final point that I do want to stress that maybe, you know,

was lost, I think, in this conversation was that... I agree with you, Eric. I want to echo kind of what Howie says. We shouldn't dwell on all this pessimism and bleakness that we do feel. It's not like it's unfounded, but what's the point of dwelling on it when we should make the best out of our circumstances? And speaking of our circumstances, we talk all this stuff, but

For me, I'll speak for myself. Like, I do feel so grateful to be living and experiencing this window of history, especially the place I am here in China. Like, you know, like, I feel different than how you described your feelings of wanting to leave and vent, right? To me, because I'm more of like, I guess, a homebody, like, I don't...

I wouldn't rather be anywhere else but here in Shanghai, in China. I feel so privileged to be here. And I just feel like I'm here in a certain window of history that is like the golden age to be here. And so I don't want that to get lost because so often we like to be critical of a lot of different places that we're wherever we are. But at the same time, like my pet peeve is like,

We're also, where we are, we're living off of the privileges of that place and that culture. Yeah, I agree. I want to be balanced to our approach and looking and hearing from all different perspectives, especially including yours, Oscar. You're right. You're both right. Yeah. It's something where it's nice to hear you say it and articulate it because it's something which you're absolutely right. We are privileged to be here in this point of time.

where we're being well looked after compared to... It's a special time, actually. Totally, totally. Yeah, it's a nice place to end this conversation. And I do agree with you. Yeah, and I think we also realize that the pandemic, all of these things, all these bigger forces we're talking about, they're massive forces and they're going to move in ways that...

you know, that they're gonna move, right? We won't be able to change that. Tectonic plates. Yeah, and you can't fight it. That's the thing, right? You can't fight it. You can only kind of live with it. And everyone responds in a different way. Like with the pandemic, some people, like homebodies, they're like, this is great. And then some people are going fucking crazy. Yeah. Right? Because like you like to travel, you like to get out, you know, and being able to travel once a quarter, maybe that would solve everything for you, right? And everyone's different. And Justin's just like, oh man, like fucking 100 more years of pandemic, I'm good. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And then I think the last thing is just the, like, I mean, this whole thing with pessimism, right? Like, I think, like, internally, I hold a lot of pessimism. My inner voice...

You know, I have a very loud inner voice that's full of pessimism. So when I hear pessimism outside of me, I immediately recognize it. And my optimistic voice fights it. And so while I'm poor at fighting my inner voice and pessimism inside, I'm a crusader against any kind of pessimism that happens outside. And so I think you'll find that some of the most pessimistic people, they come across really optimistic because they're trying to fight that fight. I agree. And this is kind of...

Can I end this? Yes, please. Because this is the dynamic that I love about your podcast, because I wouldn't have the forum to bring out this pessimism. It's not something which I talk about. I talk about it with my husband, or I talk about it just in close circles. But this is why I like your podcast, and I believe others do too, because it is a forum that you can bring out stuff that I would never say on my own podcast.

you know, and I wouldn't say this publicly in elsewhere. And that's thanks to you guys. So I want to say once again, thank you for what you do. And I hope you do carry on. And even if you're feeling pessimistic, please continue with your optimistic podcast. I do appreciate it. I have an idea. You should take all the most pessimistic clips from the show and then put it on your show. Oh, dude, no, that's, that is an indictment on my show. My show is, my show is fun.

Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Oscar. It was a pleasure speaking to you, sharing with you. Good luck on everything. Where can people find you, Oscar? So the podcast is everywhere. It's on Shimalaya, of course. It's on Xiao Yuzhou in China. It's under Mosaic of China or Zhongguo Ma Saike.

And then outside, of course, you can find their website. The website actually has, believe it or not, every episode I have the transcript. So if you're not good at English, you can follow the transcript. That is great. I know a lot of our listeners like that. It's hard to do. It takes time, but it is nice for someone. It's not just for people whose first language isn't English, but it's also for people who are hard of hearing. And if I'm the one saying I should be inclusive, then I should also include people who can't hear. Yeah.

That was one of the reasons. Mosaicofchina.com. Yeah, everywhere else. You also have additional content and there's a lot of different... Yes. So I've tried to be creative in terms of giving the most loyal people who listen some extra content. So you can go on something called iFadien where you can get for every episode, there's a longer version of every episode. Yes. 10 to 15 minutes longer. That's great. That's awesome. Once again, thanks, Oscar. It was a pleasure. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

Alright. Peace. Oh wait, do we say who we are? We always do that. Why are you breaking tradition, Justin? We don't do that. Ritual is important to these guys. That was Oscar. I'm Justin. I'm pretty optimistic. And I am neutral today. Peace.

i didn't know the darkness