#140. The Bullies And The Nerds
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Honestly, that might be the hardest I've seen you laugh, Eric, in the longest time. Not my, that was the hardest. Yeah, it might be the hardest I've ever seen Eric laugh. Shows how... Like real tears streaming down your face. I laugh like that all the time when I'm not with you guys. It was beautiful. It was so uncontrollable. I loved it. After you guys argued, of course, which is funny, but...

It's funny. I know. Why would we argue over Taylor? Over Taylor Swift. Taylor. Of all things you guys are arguing over? I wasn't even trying to argue with her. Two grown men arguing over Taylor. She has that power. That's why she's person of the year. She has that power. She can make Justin and me argue. I had my popcorn out. Yeah. That's why. That's why, Justin. That's the impact she has. Yes. All right. What do bullies, Shohei Otani, AI, Taylor Swift, and butt wiping all have in common? I don't know.

I guess our listeners can decide for themselves. Is it front to back, back to front, or back and forth? So without further ado, here we go. Do you get groggy after the podcast from the drinking? My body doesn't process alcohol. Oh, wait. If you're going to drink with me, I'm going to get a cheaper bottle to drink then.

I don't know if my reactions are slower like to anger like maybe I'm just like cause I'm cause you guys do stuff now but then I just like I'm still processing whereas before I would be like what baby steps Eric baby steps alright so is this like the last get together before y'all do your Christmas shit yeah damn I'm glad that Justin can make it it's different you know

I also tried my best to get here because I was working there. Yeah, how he wants to make sure he gets the credit too. I have to. Yeah. Where are you going for Christmas? I'm going home. Oh, yeah. Yeah, going home again. Ain't that a bitch? You got to fly back again? I feel, but I... Ain't that a bitch?

It is weird. I don't know. It's like I prefer hanging out with both of you like together. I don't like hanging out with either of you individually. Well, maybe you'll be okay as long as it's not too long. Eric just really doesn't like it. Slightly. Like I don't have that adverse reaction to it. It's very competitive for him. You know, you understand. What do you mean? No, it's not. What do you mean? He wants to like rule over you. No. He wants to dominate me. No. That's a little sexual. No. No.

No, it's just different. He wants to bully you into submission. I like the vibe. I like the vibe. Wait, hold on. Is Eric a bully? Honestly, I think he can be sometimes. Like in all seriousness. He can be, yeah, yeah. And I think he knows that inside and that's that thing he tries to fight sometimes. It's the victim becoming the bully. Is that what it is? No, I think he's, I think, yeah. All right, cheers. Cheers.

This one is, it looks dark, huh? Yeah, it's dark. Very dark. Oh, slightly peaty. Springbank does not sound very whiskey, does it? Oh, it's a very, it's known. But I'm just saying, I'm just saying just in general the name. It doesn't scream. What do you mean it's known? I've never heard of it. Yeah, but people who know whiskey know Springbank. Mm.

I don't know. From Campbellton. I love how Justin just throws that in there. He's known this for years. Yeah, I could be completely bullshitting. I literally have never heard of it. It's from Campbellton. It's 15 years. Everyone knows that. How do you not know? Yeah, everyone knows that. Campbellton doesn't even sound Scottish. It sounds like America. It's 46% volume alcohol. Everyone knows that. Come on. Yeah, no, going back to Eric, yeah, I think sometimes the victim can become the bully a little bit. Were you bullied ever?

Yeah, I think so. If I'm trying to be honest, I think I was, but not like for, I think we need to set like the standards or the baseline here because there is that real cliche that you might see in a lot of like American movies where it's like really exaggerated bullying. It wasn't like that. Like I wasn't getting shoved into my locker, you know? Yeah.

But I feel like there were moments probably I was bullied. I think there was this one friend in our friend group. He was kind of more the overcompensating alpha male at that time. He was like really into lifting weights. And he was like, you know, all those cliches about that overcompensating alpha male kid could apply to him at that time.

But we were actually really good friends. But in public, his persona could lead to behavior that you could classify as like a little bit of bullying, like verbally, you know, he would make fun of you. Not to you though. No, no, to me sometimes. Oh, to you as well. Well, like he did it to everybody.

But like to me, he definitely did it for a few times. Like it was like more like ignorant, like racism, like not that he had any ill intent. Like we were actually good friends. Like I know him, like he's actually a good dude. Right. But, but publicly, I think he was always trying to overcompensate for something. He would, you know, he would think he's being funny by cracking all these jokes and making fun of people. And even his friends, he'd make fun of them too. Right. Like everyone got it.

And to me, it was more like about like Asian stuff he would make fun of. But in his mind, it was kind of like, oh, we're good friends, so I can say this kind of stuff. Territory, right? Like that ignorant kind of shit. I mean, would I classify that as bullying? Maybe, I guess, in today's definition of it. But nothing physical. Hmm.

How long did it go on for? Oh, as long as we were friends. Like all throughout high school, middle school. You know, that's so interesting. It makes me think back to, I'm not going to just jump into your story, but it just makes me think for a second. Back when I was in middle school and also elementary school,

I had this one friend who I would hang out with all the time and his parents loved me and I would sleep over and have dinners and as if we're like brothers. I just never thought that he was actually being insensitive to me because he'd always be like, chinky, you know, or making like, you know, we'll be playing basketball, whatever, you know, and doing all this like Chinese shit. So fucked up. Right. Yeah.

How could you even play basketball with a straight face? Would you be cracking up the whole time or did it get really annoying? No, it was just annoying. I guess my personality at that time was that I would just ruin him through my sports. Yeah, he would do shit like that. Or if we got into a verbal argument, he would definitely bring in Chinese into it. Yeah, yeah. For sure. And I didn't think too much about it until about my first year in high school when I started realizing...

Wait a minute, this is actually not right. And it took me a while to realize. And you know what they are? Like, they're also, it's like a microaggression or even like more than a microaggression, but these are microaggressions. I don't know why they call them like microaggressions, right? But I think they're aggressions essentially.

Yeah. So for me, it took like a falling out of our relationship for me to finally realize like I don't need that in my life anyway. Yeah. It's weird when you're in that position because I can relate to the fact that like you don't really notice it in the moment.

Maybe it's like when you're that young or that's just the world you know. Like you didn't know any, at least I didn't know anything else. I always grew up in a predominantly white area of the US. I didn't really have any other Asian friends. So to me, it was just like, I didn't really notice it, but it always kind of bothered me and got under my skin.

And it wasn't until much later, you kind of realize, oh, okay, that's what's happening here. And the kid I'm talking about, we actually became roommates in the first college I went to. - Gettysburg? - Yeah, Gettysburg. So we bunked together. So that just goes to show, like we were actually friends. And then I remember one night he came back into the dorm. This is, you know, in college we were talking. I remember this had such a big impact on me because it was like, oh, wow.

He pulled me aside and he basically, I don't know what kind of realization he had or some sort of epiphany, like personally, but he started apologizing to me. Wow. Like out of nowhere for everything that he said and how he was during high school. Wow. Yeah. I was like, wow, okay, that's...

Wow, okay. But let's think about this for a second. I mean, you're not him. You're not my friend either that was speaking that way to me. But I kind of let it go when I was younger because I felt like we were friends. He treated me well outside of those racially descriptive words that he would use towards me. Family was very nice to me. Everything was fine. It was just that. When we got into heated arguments or in the moment, the Chinese jokes would come out.

And I would just equate it to just youth. You're just young, you're ignorant, you don't know any better. - Yeah, you don't know any better. Did you ever call him out on it? Like did it bother you? - Well, we had a falling out and then he switched schools. So we just stopped talking. And I remember maybe like 10 years ago, he left a message on my Facebook

And he said, "Oh, hey, how's it going? "It's been ages. "I see you're doing pretty well. "Just to let you know that it's awesome "seeing your posts on Facebook, blah, blah, blah, blah." And it was just a very friendly little thing. And that was it. - And then you were like, "Fu-yah!" - Motherfucker. - And that's when you pulled out your nunchucks. - Yeah, I did not hold any grudges. It didn't really affect me that much. It only came up when you started saying the story that I thought about it again.

I thought a lot about my experience and what I think it is, I think he apologized because once we were in college, it's like the first time you kind of exit your little high school, middle school bubble, right? And you're kind of more in the quote unquote real world than you are, let's say when we were in high school and we were very much in a bubble there. I think that's when he started learning, when he started interacting with people he didn't really grow up with.

that he couldn't really be like that in the real world. And that kind of maybe triggered him to reflect back on how he's been. And maybe that's what led to his apology. I really don't know. But all that stuff, like, again, like, I don't think he's like a racist person. I would never label him that. I think when you're young, when you want to make fun of somebody, even if it's out of jest or out of what you think is like just friendship or whatever, and

You go for the low-hanging fruit. You attack the easiest thing to attack. That's a good point. Right? The most obvious thing to attack. And for him, when he saw me, being Chinese was that most obvious thing, right? And I was like the token Asian guy in our friend group. So that was the thing. Yeah. And we made fun of him too, right? Because it's like, we didn't just take it from him. And for him, it was more like his intelligence. He was kind of like the dumb jock.

And so we would like make fun of his intelligence. And then so like everyone, and then this went around and around, right? So everyone just attacks what they, is the low, like the low hanging fruit again. The easiest thing they see to attack, that's the thing they'll attack. And for me, it just happened to be the ethnicity. So I don't think there was any real maliciousness there in my experience. It was...

Well, it was, you know, thoughtful for him. I mean, he shouldn't have done it, obviously, because it could have a lot of negative consequences. But the fact that he was able to realize that was also good for him. Because if you carry and you harbor a lot of just unconscious sort of bias, that's not going to serve you well. And the fact that he was able to, like, you know, bring it up.

even though you hadn't criticized him for it and to own up to it. I think that's a big deal. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there, if you speak to the other side, like the bully side, that never got a chance to apologize, that probably harbor these almost regrets inside maybe. So going with what you're saying, I think that's good. Yeah, absolutely. I reflect on, I wonder, and I desperately hope

that I was never perceived as a bully to anybody else. But I would really never know. Because back then, like, I don't remember everything I ever did and saw. Or I don't remember every single interaction I've had with anybody else growing up. So I don't know. I just hope I never came off. Like, I don't think so. But you never know in these things. And then, but then, like, you hear stories. Like, I went to Chinese school on the weekends, you know.

you know, my mom sent me to Chinese school. I went to Chinese school too. Right? Yeah. It was horrible. Just like on the weekends, right? But did you guys fail? I failed. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Obviously. I did not learn a single thing. I went and just played basketball every day. Yeah.

No, because when you're growing up, you're a kid, the last thing you want to do on your weekend is go back to a school, especially a school where you don't really have any friends. Exactly. And the teachers are all like hella strict compared to the Western teachers because they're all parents. They're all parents and they're all Asian. Literally, they're all like hardcore tiger parents, right? Let me just share one memory before we move on or continue on this.

I have one memory of bringing home one, like the first test that I took and I did horrible on it. And I remember sitting with my dad and he looks at it and he looks at me and he said, how the hell did you fail? And I'm like, wow. And he's like, most of the class are white people. Oh,

Oh, so you had white kids in my school? I had white kids in my school. No, we didn't have no white kids. Not a single white kid in my Chinese school. Yeah, it's different. It was like purely the Chinese community. Ours was Taiwanese the whole time. I had Asian, I had Asian, Chinese, but I had a lot of white people. And so he's like, he doesn't know if they pass or not, but it's just in his mind. He was like, my Chinese son? Like you have a huge leg up. Oh, yeah. I remember a couple of funny stories. So we were...

The Chinese school was held in a Western school that they just rented on the weekends, right? Exactly, same here. And then like, I mean, we were like such assholes, right? We just fuck up their classrooms. Oh, really? Oh yeah, all the time. And then I remember a couple of funny stories, but one of them was, so I did, on some years I did really well, depends on the teacher. The teacher was like just really hardcore because some of those parents are like hard, like they're like more hardcore than my mom, right?

Some years I do well. And then I remember there's one teacher I just hated. Her kids were all like, went to top schools or whatever, right? She was very strict and she hated me because there's just some people that when they'd see me, they'd be like, oh, this guy, this kid is just a bad kid, right? I could just, you could feel that intense. I totally understand. Right? Bad how? Like naughty? Like naughty, like this.

kid had no self-discipline, not like my kids, you know? And I could see the criticism, the stinging sort of like contempt, right? And I was like, well, fuck you, right? And so I would just like, I would just do all kinds of naughty shit. And I remember I was like, I just boycotted the class. And I remember at the end of the semester, I was last in the whole class. So the thing about like Chinese students

report cards. It's like, it's hardcore. If you're top three in the class, they'll be like, D-E-M-E-N-G, D-R-E-M-E-N-G, D-S-I-M-E-N-G. But if you're last in the class, they mark you were the last in the class. They will tell your parents. Yeah, they don't highlight the middle. They just highlight the front runners and the last. Like this whole punishment and shaming thing, right? And so it all starts in an early age. I remember my dad came and then usually my mom would pick me up

And so like for whatever reason she couldn't. So he came and it was like everyone had already gone home and I was waiting. And then he looked down at my port card and he never really looked at my stuff because my mom was in charge of all my stuff. So obviously he would like react and he'd be like,

you know, it's like, you could have done like, like this, you know, second worst in the class. You had to give me, and he just like, pick me up by the ear and I, something like this and then drag me all the way to the car. I remember he got so freaking pissed. Right. But I did well. Like, um, I got top three, like all the time. It just depend on the circumstances. Right. So here's the funny thing. So if you get top three, you get, um, a certificate, um,

And then if you get three certificates, like three different semesters, you get top three, you get like a 长碑. And then 三个长碑, you get like a plaque, right? But our school was so ghetto because it was like, you know, Chinese people are just kind of ghetto, right? So when you get the certificate you get, you can keep it. But the 长碑 is like you get it and then you can show it at home for a week, but then you have to bring it back because they'd reuse those mother f**king 长碑. Right? So like...

And I always thought that was kind of strange. I'm like, well, they don't do that in an American school. Like, I just get to keep my awards. Well, it's kind of like the Stanley Cup then, right? Yeah. You gotta give it back, right? No, but Stanley Cup, no. Oh, you... I don't think you get to keep the Stanley Cup. Oh, yeah. It is like a Stanley Cup. Because it's like one Stanley Cup. That's a nice way of reframing it. They were just cheap, right?

For freaking jumping. And I would just remember, like, and then... And the thing was, like, plastic anyway. Was yours, like, metal? Ours was, like, plastic. It was, like, a small one. I wouldn't have... No, I've never even seen it. Plastic. So... And then if you get, like, three, then you get, like, a plaque. But then you for sure have to return the plaque. You can't even take it home. Like...

Yeah, my mom substitute teach taught a couple of times. My mom was pretty nice. Yeah, my mom did the same thing. Yeah, and when she went, then I would be on my best behavior, right? I never had my own mom as a teacher. I think she taught my class.

Yeah. No. But it was very rare. She only did it, I have to ask her about it sometimes. She did it a couple times. And then when her friends taught me, there was a couple that I do really well, right? I perform because I was like motivated. Remember we were talking about that carrot or the whip, one of our earlier, very early episodes, like how do we respond, what motivates us, right? And so like when I was encouraged and was like a nice teacher, then, you know, I'd want to work hard. And then if it's just some fucking bitch, right? Then I just shouldn't say that about her.

about my mom's friends but they're just so like in like scornful and just like like arrogant and just look down on any other kids like oh my kid you know like those deeming sometimes like very competitive right very competitive but also just dismissive and i was just like oh you know like i was gonna be like going to jail or whatever that kind of shit right i just felt like that scorn anyways

Yeah. I mean, reflecting on Chinese school, like at the time you don't think anything of it. You just think it's like a place you don't want to be and you don't like, it's the last thing you think about. Right. But like thinking back on it now, it actually did quite have quite an impact on me, I guess. Really? Yeah. Cause it was my first like real window into any sort of Asian community and how they operated. Yeah.

And it was definitely the first time. But why does the school that you go to not have any Asians? What do you mean? They had Asians. No, no. I mean like the regular school, like the-

I don't know. I just lived in a part of New Jersey that maybe just didn't have a lot of Asians. I mean, there were a few Asians. It's not like there weren't any Asians. There were Asians. I just weren't friends with them. But there weren't a lot. It was like, we're definitely like the smallest minority group in the whole school. I can imagine you just walking around. It's like, oh. There's like a handful of Asians. In my grade, there were maybe only three other Asians in my whole grade. So it was very small. And I didn't really hang out with them.

But I never thought anything of it until I went to start going to Chinese school. And I think what Chinese school showed me or highlighted to me the most, obviously, was how different I was as a Chinese kid in New Jersey, especially in that community. I couldn't relate to anybody in my Chinese school class.

And because it was the first time I noticed that I was a lot different from them in terms of my social experience and my social surroundings and the things I did. So I was skateboarding, you know, I was listening to hip hop and whatever.

ska and rock and we were drinking and doing all those stereotypical shit kids do at that age in the US. And every time I went to Chinese school, I was immediately surrounded by what I would say

were the stereotypical Chinese nerds, right? And these were great kids. I'm not trying to say that in a really mean-spirited way. I'm saying it's just that stereotype, right? They studied really hard. They looked and dressed the part. They probably had parents that were the tiger parents. They were into computers, and they didn't have a lot of other friends. And

- But is that really true or was that just your perception of them? - It was, I think for a long-- - Like they had no friends, I mean, the fact that they're in computers, okay. - No, no, they had other friends, but the other friends were also like Chinese nerds, right? So it's like, I'm saying that in the sense that it was just an observation I was making in that like, oh, okay, that's, and then maybe there were one other, two other kids maybe in the whole Chinese school that were more similar to me.

But for the most part, it was like, wow, I'm kind of like an outlier here. Well, how do they perceive you? Like, were they afraid of you? I don't think I wouldn't say they were afraid of me, but they definitely perceived me as that kid, too.

So you just kept your distance. They kept your distance. Yeah. I didn't really interact. I was sitting in the back of the class. I didn't pay attention in class. I was listening to mob deep in my headphones. Like it was a whole different, you know, like the world is so different now. It is like so different because part of it. And I think is that like that generation of like Asian people that came to America. Like I know there's a massive population of just people who came from Taiwan that, um,

were pretty well educated and then they came over and they were going, they were pursuing graduate studies here, right? There was like a massive population of that and especially in Houston at the time.

And then these people all send their kids to Chinese school. And they're all like similar demographics in a sense, right? They might come from different families in Taiwan or not have that much in common in Taiwan, but they come to the US and all of a sudden they have like a shitload in common, just like us. Like we might not know each other in the US, but we come here and it's like, oh, wow, there's other ABCs here, right? So they were like somewhat homogenous in that sense over...

right? Coming to America, wanting a better life. And so like their kids sort of like all kind of fell into that cultural pattern. And then now you have kids like my nieces and nephews that are the kids of us, right? So I look at like my niece's little tiger school. So she like, she's like four and a half. So she goes to this pre-kindergarten thingy and it's like half that, like, so it's all these, it's, it's taught in Chinese or whatever. And they learn Chinese language and culture and stuff like that.

it's like half of a day or however long we want to go. And then you look at the class and it's like, there's a third that are like mixed, completely just mixed, right? They don't, they're like half white or whatever it is and half Asian. Then like a third are like Chinese. And then like a third are like white, you know, just a hundred percent white. And their interests are like so varied. My niece is like doing, I don't know, ballet. And I mean, she's like four, like ballet, like cello. She's doing swimming. Sounds like a Chinese student here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like Chinese people here, right? So this stereotype of a nerd, I mean, I get what you're saying, right? And it does have that negative connotation, but it was like very, very sort of homogenous, right? There were certain interests and there's a certain kind of

of characteristics, but I just think it's like, that was just the time. And then now, even if you come to China, it's like, I mean, people are into everything, right? Like you see people on the street, like you probably, you would have the same Justin sitting in the back of the class listening to whatever hip hop. Like it's just the world, the cultural variety has just exponentially spread like wildfire. 100% agreed. And with the internet too. You know, I'm thinking, I'm thinking if we were in the exact same position that of Justin, what Justin was describing in the Chinese school,

except Justin, this character, was somebody that just came straight from Shanghai off the boat. Yeah. They would probably be into something cool, whatever. You know what I mean? It's like a whole different world now. Yeah. I agree with that. Totally. We were so kind of very narrow in certain interests, and our world was shaped-

Like in this very, very significant way. Yeah. Right. And now it's like, basically the world is, everyone's exposed to everything immediately. Well, we're talking like 25, 30 years ago. Right. Like the world has definitely changed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just saying it's like at that time, I never noticed how different I was for being like an Asian American kid when I started mingling with other Asian American kids. And,

And I felt like I eventually ended up feeling a lot of sympathy for them because I remember, because our parents were all like a part of the same community with the other Chinese school parents. So they would have gatherings or potluck parties at, you know, whoever's house. And I remember hearing, overhearing the parents talking and the parents of the other Chinese school kids were talking about how they were getting like bullied mercilessly at school. Cause most of them went to public school.

And I remember hearing stories of that type of bullying. And it really was like the actual over-exaggerated getting shoved into the locker, you know, really brutally, like, you know, physically being hurt as well that they were going through. I just ended up feeling a lot of sympathy for them because I would see some of these Asian kids in Chinese school, you

And you can just tell like their whole demeanor, their whole personality was very like inward and quiet. And I just can't help but to feel some level of sympathy for like the mind fuck that does to you at such an early age. And I'm so grateful I didn't experience any bullying to that degree because I don't know how that would psychologically have affected me.

Right? I just don't know. I would think I'd be the type of person that would fight back, but you never know. I just don't know. Like even if you were to fight back still, that traumatizes you in some way anyway. Yeah. You know, I have this image of when I was in high school. I might've mentioned this once in a previous episode, but there's this one, we had an exchange program and we had like Koreans, Japanese, mainland Chinese in our school, but not a lot. It was like eight in total, I would say. Yeah.

And it's not like we didn't have Asians in our school. We had a lot of Filipinos. But as like a Chinese American, I can only name one other one. And basically, this one guy who was from mainland China, I don't remember his name. Never had any classes with him. Seemed great as me, though.

All I remember is walking through the hallways and seeing him. He always dressed very nerdy, like very weird, like polo shirt and khakis and just like holding his books really close to his chest. Polo shirt tucked in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's tucked in very like, like the stereotypical nerd, like Urkel. Yeah, yeah. And he was like very skinny and no fashion sense at all and just like holding his books, like getting to his next class. And I can tell you, every single time I saw him, he would get thrown into a locker or he would get like, boom,

bumped really hard. And that was like the thing. It was like either you get thrown into a locker or you get bumped, right? So your books would, or your stuff would- Yeah, so you just, you get hurt and you get like- You get like shoulder checked into the wall. Yeah, shoulder checked. That's the big thing, right? You just bam, you know? And then you just keep walking. And it's basically, it's done by certain sect of people, like the bullies, and they wouldn't, there's no reaction. There's nothing like, ha, ha, nothing like that. Just keep walking.

Right. It's just, just to be an asshole. It was like brutal and merciless. Yeah. It was like, it was like a demonstration of their power. Yeah. And like how insignificant. It's been like being a small fish in prison. Yeah. So that's, that's how it was in my school. So it sounds like you guys understand this. And so anyway, I mean, anytime I saw this, I would notice it. I would never partake, but at the same time I would never defend. And I remember thinking to myself, what a fucking nerd.

And it's a horrible thing to think about now, but in that moment, I think it was almost like a survival instinct. I had to separate myself from him. I was one of the popular kids in school, and I can say that confidently, but...

Because of that. You had a distance. I had a distance myself. Because it's almost like I already carved myself out. I already went through. I got bullied before, but I stepped up above it. Yeah. You know, I put in my dues and I can now rake in the benefits. Yeah, yeah. So I have to. But you're not even doing it consciously. This is unconscious. It's totally unconscious. Because I was never mean to him. Those few times that we had interaction was...

I would just be normal. I'd be like, kachi, and that's it. I wouldn't go out of my way to befriend him. I would not go out of my way to attack him. Meanwhile, the cut to now, he's like that dude in Crazy Rich Asians, you know, Jimmy or whatever. I didn't finish watching that movie. But anyway, so I think reflecting back during those times, I can just imagine how difficult it was for him because he would never defend himself.

There's, it was always literally, he could check so hard. He's like, bam into the lockers and he just collects his books and just continues his path. Yeah. Right. He's like this sort of, he just tries not to be seen. Yeah, man. It was, and that, I think, you know, we talk about privilege on the show sometimes. Right. And there definitely is that thing of popular privilege. Right.

where you see examples like that and you're like, why don't you stand up for yourself? Why don't you fight back? You're like, why don't you do these things? And it's easy coming from, I guess, the social circles we were a part of to say that. But yeah, I don't know. But I think that's popular privilege. We were in an environment where we, or at least for me, like, yeah, I like...

popular crowd, right? And my school wasn't as violent as that to begin with anyway. But yeah, you look at that and you're like, why don't you, like you get angry at the person. You're like, why don't you fight, fight back, fight, do something. And then I guess it's not that easy. Yeah, let me just add in one more detail that to help further paint this picture.

So there's another memory I have where in gym class, you have to, you know, locker rooms, you're changing and a lot of shit happens during time when you're changing, you know? It's like showers in prison. Exactly. And so I remember one time in gym class. I talk like I know what prison's like. In one time in gym class, this group of people,

the bullies and they went up to him and they basically one by one punched him as hard as possible in his chest or stomach. - Jesus, how many people were this? - Six or seven I would say. And so, but it would not be like a fight, right? So it'd be like something would happen also here, yo, yo, go, go, go, right? And he's just like standing next to the locker and then bam, first person and he .

And he just stands there, no reaction. But you know it hurt. The next guy comes up, bam. And he's like, yo, he's taking it. He's taking it. And the whole, after the five or six or whatever, he's literally just like this. But he took it without crying. What was his background? I didn't know where, but he's from mainland. And he was...

Like he came, oh, just for the, oh. He's living with like white folks. Dude, that's so horrible. He came alone. Especially like, he didn't even grow up there. Exactly. And he doesn't even have the support system here, like his family or whatever. Yeah, because the biggest thing that he got picked on was because he could barely speak English. So they could pick on him, you know? Oh, that's so sad. And I remember seeing that from like, it was kind of far away because I was on the other side of the gym.

But seeing that, and then I just, the only thing I remember so clearly is just him looking up, clenching his teeth, and putting on his shorts. Because I feel like in his mind, don't show you're weak. Do not give in. You're not going to cry. You're not going to do anything. Just go about your business. You're here to get an education.

I don't even think it's an education. I think he's just like, I got to fucking get through this year and go back to China. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. Like, he probably hated it. Who knows why he even came out? Because whenever I did have any type of, like, simple interactions with him, he was always very, like, just friendly. Like, fine. It was not like he was shy or, like, he was like, hi. Yeah. Yeah. It's...

Okay, well, let me, let me, okay, so you each have kids, right? And recently, like one of my friends that I grew up with was telling me that, you know, like her son was being bullied, but like these days, it's a little bit different, right?

I mean, I'm sure a lot of these things like... Is it like cyberbullying or... Yeah, like more like not physical bullying. Like psychological. Or like psychological bullying, right? And I think people, like what kids can sort of like, what they consider bullying is also like different because society is advanced culturally. And like the kid is...

he's of mixed race and stuff like that. Right. So like part this and part that. Right. And so it's traumatic. Right. And he just like wants to go about his business, do his thing, like super smart, whatever. Right. But you both have kids, right?

And there's all sorts of different forms of bullying that can happen, like from very subtle microaggressions to like just getting punched in the stomach. Like that's like so hardcore, right? I mean, that's like violent. That's like, that's assault. It's not even a bully, right? That's like assault, right? Like what would you do? Like if your kids got into that situation, because you could be bullied at a very, very early age, right?

100%. Right? Like in preschool. Like kids are now like parents are so busy, they're going to work. Like they're getting sent to preschool. Like kids can be brutal because they just don't understand. And their parents can be like fucking totally like just... Oblivious to it. Oblivious or their parents could just be total dicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like what would you do? That's a really... That's really tricky. I don't know. I think...

I don't know. It really just depends on the age, right? I know. Stop it, Justin. I know where you're going to teach your kid. You're going to teach him to kick the kid and punch the kid in the balls like you do. And you'll be the same horrible person just like father, like your son. That's probably not far from the truth. I mean, yeah, I think if the kid is of age, I'd probably, and it also depends on what kind of bullying they're getting.

But if they're getting physically intimidated or abused, I'd be probably, and this is probably really bad to say, I'd probably tell them to fight back. - What's wrong with that? - I don't know. - I'm on 100%. Are you kidding me? - I'd be like, fight back. No matter what happens, you stood your ground and you fought back and I'll be proud of you. It doesn't matter. You might lose the fight, whatever it is, you fought back. And that'll teach the bully to think twice about fucking with you again.

What if that's not in their nature though? And what if it's like not physical, it's just like verbal stuff and it's very like hurtful, right? Because you're like, look, you're thinking, you're totally thinking from your perspective. Like you have to think that like, it's like that kid that was getting punched in the stomach, right? But it could not, might not be like a physical punch, right?

Right? Like, I mean, you can't, if they had that composition to begin with, then that wouldn't be happening. And you might not even know. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean, it could literally be for school, say, for school comparisons, non-physical abuse could be, I go to you, Eric. Yo, I'm of a much cooler stature than you. You're going to listen to what I say. I need you to do my homework because you're killing this class in a good way and I need your help.

And if you don't do it, I'm gonna spread rumors about you. I'm gonna, you know, whatever it takes. Apparently, like, that is, like, you know, in this, my friend's case, like, was spreading rumors. Yeah. That's bullying. I mean, like, the sweetest, like, imagine Little Riley. People are like, oh, yeah, like, you, like, you like to fucking eat your boogers.

You know what I'm saying? Kids are just, you just don't know what's going on, right? And probably a lot of it doesn't even surface. At such a young age, you probably can't really do anything directly to the bully because then you're just messing with another little kid, right? But I think probably- Well, in America, it's so sensitive. Wherever you raise them. I think psychologically, you kind of maybe try to

talk to your kid and give them some context and reference in terms of the bigger picture here so that at least they have,

maybe a wider kind of life view to kind of view their experience as just kind of like, this is one of the shitty experiences you go through. And, you know, like a few years from now, no one's going to remember this. And, you know, I don't know. I would think I would try to convince them emotionally and psychologically that this shit might seem like it really hurts right now. And it might be a huge deal for you right now.

But in the bigger context of things, you won't even care about this shit later on when you grow up.

something along those lines when they're like at that small age. Because I think if you're going to step in as a parent to kind of interview and it might make things worse, or maybe you do it behind the back where you approach the other parent of the kid and kind of pull them aside and be like, Hey, this is what I'm seeing happening to them. And the other parent goes, go fuck yourself. Exactly. But then what's the worst that's going to happen? So they say, go fuck myself. Like, I don't care. But at least, but what if they're like really receptive? They're like, Oh shit. Okay. Maybe I'll watch out. If it was Eric, what did you say to me? Yeah.

And then the other parent just raises their shirt and you see a fucking nine millimeter. You're like, oh, well, okay.

Yeah, I think you're right. It really depends on the age, right? Because it's a lot of age appropriate advice because also mental development is different depending on your age. So if you're a five-year-old compared to a 15-year-old, your mental development is different. So your understanding of logic versus emotion is going to be very different. So I think you have to approach it. Well, I think growing up too, a lot of these traumatic things

Obviously the experience itself is a huge thing, right? But I think what makes a lot of these traumatic experiences for kids being bullied worse is

is that they feel like they don't have anyone to talk about it with, and they don't necessarily have that support system, either because maybe the family doesn't know about it, or maybe the family knows about it, doesn't care, or not that type of parent. I don't know, whatever it is. And so they feel really isolated in their pain and in their fear. And I think that's what really sets in a lot of traumatic experiences to have more permanent damage,

So I think as long as like you're the type of parent where you can be emotionally and psychologically there for them and you're aware of the situation, like part of the awareness is on the parent as well to be observant about it, right? Because you can't expect a kid to verbalize everything to you. Part of it is you, your responsibility as a parent to be aware of what's going on with your kid as well. You'll know them better than anybody else.

to provide that support with them because, and to let them know, like, look, you're going to go through shit in life. You're going to go through struggles. This is just one of them, but I'm here for you. At least that little bit, I think gives them some sort of

some sort of safety net psychologically that no matter how bad things get for them at school, like, hey, I know what's going on and I'm here to give you words of encouragement, to give you some advice or share any sort of wisdom you can with them just to make that pain a little less and so that they can maybe recover better from it as they grow up.

But if you're just silent and you're not there and involved emotionally with them, I think that's when these things become like real problematic as they grow up then in terms of emotional damage. It's when you're young, what else are you going to do, right? Like you can't really intervene to that level. I also think just to add on to what you just said, because I think you were quite eloquent in that and I agree with it.

I don't think as a parent you could just step in and say, you can talk to me. You know, tell me about your day. Because if you're not in the grand scheme of things, if you're not that type of personality and you haven't built that relationship with your child, why would they trust you? Mm-hmm.

Well, it is a cliche that parents are like, oh, no, you can tell me anything. Exactly. It's okay. So why would they trust you? You can tell me anything, and then what's the response? It's like, don't bother me, mom. That kind of stuff, right? Exactly. Because if you as a parent are judgmental, quite, you're constantly...

I don't know, giving them rules to follow and punishing them if they break in. And telling them they don't measure up. Yeah. Then the whole bullying thing is like basically telling them they don't measure up. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not going to matter if you're that type of parent and then you say, no, tell me, tell me, open up to me. They're not going to open up to you. So I feel like the first step is to understand or maybe not even understand, but think about what kind of parent you want to be. What kind of relationship you want to have with your kid, right? Yeah. So that's not awkward for them to have that conversation with you in the first place. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's true. That's a big one. I also think like,

I mean, 100%, I feel like that's super important. And like there is the long-term perspective because like bullying, being bullied, those are just different obstacles you're gonna face, right? Because like you can meet bullies at work that are way worse, that are like sabotaging you, you know, like all kinds of stuff. So like bullying is just like something like in the broader scheme of things, it's some kind of like obstacle that's kind of that you have to take responsibility

control of somehow, right? But I think also because they're so helpless at that time, it's like helping them

working through the issue and like trying to figure out a solution. Cause at the end of the day, the kid needs a fucking solution, right? Like you want them to be bullied the rest of their life. Like you can give them all the fucking perspective you want, but it's actually like sitting down and it's like, well, let's try to figure this out. Like you're not alone. Like there are people that get bullied. It doesn't diminish what you're going through. You know, many people have to go through some form of this. So let's solve it. Right. But like, it's not like we're trying to solve something completely new.

I love that you brought that up because one thing that kept popping my mind while we're talking about this, because we're talking about in a school, whether it's our own historical stories that we're sharing or our future kids, but it's all about school.

But bullying, it's not limited to school. I mean, adult bullying is a thing. Yeah. Well, sexual harassment. Like, I mean, anything... Relationship bullying. Any time where there is a power difference or a perceived power difference, and there are systemic kind of differences in society, then these things kind of happen. So I think there's a... So going back to this, right, is one is...

what is your job as a parent? And now I'm telling you like how to be parents, right? But I'm just saying in general, right? Because like, I think like it's metaphorical too, because we help people at work. We help, you know, our families and stuff like that. It's that like from a very early age, you're trying to help them build up their defense system. So that like when they encounter any situation, they have the mental fortitude, persistence, all of the traits that they need, right?

right? To be successful. You're also teaching them like how to be self-motivated, self-aware. There's a lot of things, right? So that training program has to start at a fairly early age while you give them the opportunity to be joyful as children, right? And so like

You're constantly sort of working on that. And then there are these moments in your life when something happens, you break an arm, you know, like you go to school, you fail a class, like bad things happen to you. And then like the job of the parent is to then start working with the kid to kind of understand like, well, what can you do differently to solve this thing, right? And then some of them require more intervention.

We talk about interventions in the context of countries. But, like, when children are so powerless, then... Like, it's just... It's like... If I think about my niece or something, if anyone tried to pick... I mean, I would just fucking go thermonuclear. I would fucking go... What would you do? What would you do? I don't know. I mean, what I...

Well, not even your niece. Let's say you had a daughter. No, it was like my... Irrationally, if it was like literally, or if it was my niece, and irrationally, I would go and like blow up their house, but I wouldn't, right? But you would want to, so then you would have to think about like what you're going to do. But I think you have to... You would go full beef on that. But before they even are in the position to get bullied, it's like, what are you doing with your kids now to prepare them for life? Like they're like one years old, right? I think that's such a great...

It's like, are you just kind of like passive and sitting back? Or are you building up your arsenal as well? Because you have to learn. You know what I'm saying? I definitely know the least of the three of us. But are you reading books? Are you learning? Are you practicing? Are you going to class? I mean, this is like a major thing, right? You're not born to be a parent.

Yeah, I think that's a really strong point in terms of both you pointing out that bullies happen even when we grow up. And the fact that you really do have to address this, I think, at a young age. I would assume, I would guess that if you were bullied as a child routinely, your chances of being bullied as an adult probably go up a lot. I would guess that's the case.

- Or at least that problem doesn't go away. - Yeah. - Right? And so sooner or later, at some point in your life, you're gonna have to deal with the aftermath of that. - Yeah. So it's just, it's not even about addressing the problem to save the kid during that time, which is something you definitely wanna try to do, but it's really for like, the point I think you're making is when they grow up, what kind of adults are they gonna become?

And we're all shaped by our past experiences, right? And so if we assume that the likelihood of you being bullied as an adult increase significantly, if you have been bullied as a kid, then that makes the issue so much more like urgent, like critical. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. It's a tough one. Like I'll share with you a positive example. I like, well, first I will say that like in middle school, I was bullied, especially in like a PE, right? In physical education class, because you would have kids that were like, that had basically flunked a couple of grades. So they were like massive. And so I remember like, and then the PE class was not representative of the academic demographic you were in. So like in your normal class, like,

If you did well in school, then you would be like with other kids that you'd known for a long time and that would belong to that particular grade, you know, and probably just in a lot of different ways matched you in terms of like the environment that you would have grown up in. Then you go to PE and it's all mixed. You go to PE and that's when you learn survival of the fittest is a real thing. No, it really is like a prison, right? Survival of the fittest is a real thing. Darwinism. Yeah.

And I remember there were just massive kids, right? And then I was the smallest. And then I had other friends that were bigger than me that were friends of mine. And so I would get the worst of it, right? They would pick on all of us. So what would they do to you? I mean, it would just be verbal. And then I think they would pretend to...

they would make you flinch. They would come and then like try to punch you. They wouldn't actually punch you in the face like that kid, right? But they would try to punch you and then watch you flinch to intimidate you a little bit. And they only did it, like they targeted you or was that just everyone was doing that? So all of the people that I was in class with were targeted in some ways. I think because I was the smallest and I felt like I had got more of it, but maybe not. Maybe that was just my perception.

But I remember like then some of my bigger friends, like, you know, like we would kind of try to help each other or whatever like that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, stop, you know, like a couple of us together. Right. But everyone was, but if, you know, but if you were like the smaller one, maybe you would be an easier target or something like that. But I remember that was like in junior high. Right.

And then by the time you get to high school, everyone's sort of like, I think just you normalize in terms of your growth a little bit. And it's like somehow things become a little bit more like less stark. Yeah, I think middle school is probably the... Middle school is like the worst, right? The worst. And then, so I just remember like at some point I got, you know, I went to high school and then everything was just pretty normal. I was like, oh yeah, those people that picked on me, they just went to another high, they went to like probably the prison high school or something, you know? And they just got funneled into like another...

another route. And I like, I wonder what happened to those people, you know, long-term. So I feel like it probably had some damage to my psyche in some ways, you know, like maybe in some ways made me a more violent person. Like that had some impact. I did, you know, obviously it wasn't like trans negatively transfer transformative for me, but you know, if I think about my short temper or like these types of things, or sometimes like I'm overly aggressive, but then sometimes I'm like, I might be a little bit timid on something, but,

things that which have just sort of washed out over the years. But I feel like these things, because they happen quite early on, especially in middle school, right? And like nothing in elementary, not really much in high school. It's like middle school. You know, there was a little bit of that, you know, that, that impact, right? But like, you're going to, you're going to meet these things throughout your lifetime, right? So really building up that like sense of yourself and,

is important. And I do think that though, so on the positive example, so like when Ann was a child and you know, Ann's like really good at sticking up for like, you know, she's like, no one would ever like kind of bully her. Right. You can tell she's got a very strong personality and,

And like, I think it came from like her parents doing a really good job. So when she was really, and when girls don't get picked on as, you know, it's a little bit different. No girls can be vicious. Verbal and that kind of stuff. Psychologically, they're the most vicious. From a physical side, like less, right? So when she was a kid, like there was a boy that was picking on her or something like that. Like really, really, maybe, I don't know, maybe she was six or something like that. And what I appreciate about what her parents approach was, it was kind of like,

They sat down, they listened to her, you know, and then, you know, she was complaining about this. As she sort of recounts the story, she says, okay, so her parents are like, okay, well, first of all, like if you don't do anything about this, it'll probably happen like every single day until you figure out a way to solve this. So like you have to solve this. We can help you, but we can't go to school with you. So like if you don't do anything about it,

then the chances are you're going to get like beat up every day or whatever it is. So like they gave her some reality to it and they were like, okay, but let's try to like figure it out. Right. So then her dad just gave her like, they broke the problem down into a really small piece. And it's like, okay, the next time the boy tries to grab you or do something right. As soon as, because when they try to do that, they're not going to expect you to do anything. So don't be afraid to,

You take his arm and then you just bite it as hard as you can. Just pretend it's a chocolate bar, right? Just don't worry. Like, don't think about anything. He won't expect anything. Just bite his arm as hard as you can. Just try it out. See what happens. The next day, the kid comes over, you know, maybe tries to grab her or something like that. And she's like, okay.

Because kids are like quite, if you get it at the very beginning, where before they build up this whole monster of bullying, right? At the very beginning, they don't know what's going on, right? So she just followed what her dad said. The kid came over. She grabbed his hand. He got startled. She bit as hard as he could. He screamed and then that was it. He never bullied her again. Right?

Right. So then from that example, she learned that she could solve her own problems. Right. And so it was interesting. Right. That's great. Yeah. So I think it's like,

Breaking the problem down and then figuring out a solution and having... Maybe that wouldn't work. And then maybe tomorrow you have to do something different. But taking this very optimistic approach. It's like, well, you know, we got to do something about it. And not making it out to be bigger than it actually was. So like her childhood was full of these...

what you would call like stretch kind of thing. So like whenever she had a challenge and this was just one example, but maybe there was a different challenge with an assignment or whatever. So they would give her a suggestion and they would just tell her to just go try that one little thing, see what happens. And then over time, like it helped build up confidence so that you start getting out of a victim mindset. And then Papa Justin would be like, smack him in the balls.

No, it's totally... What's with you and thinking I'm just a ball puncher? Oh, I wonder. No, no. To my brain, we play around. Some people don't even grow out of this. Because it happened recently. That's really bad. Okay, so this is kind of a good segue to the idea. I mean, don't get too excited, Ali. I thought we were moving on. No, because I'm still talking about bullying. But I think what's fascinating is

We've been talking about it purely from the angle of the bullied. What if you realize your kid is becoming the bully? And as you were talking about your story, Howie, and how there was this Chinese kid from the mainland in your school who was getting assaulted. And the stories I heard about or overheard of these kids that went to my Chinese school and how they were being assaulted and bullied.

I think it's equally as crazy to think about what makes someone act like that. Like that's equally as foreign to me as it is the nerdy kid, let's say being bullied. Like, and why don't you step up for yourself? Like, why don't you do something about it? Like that's foreign to me too. But equally as foreign is like, how can you, what psychologically has to go on in your head to think and to get joy from

out of bullying or assaulting another helpless kid. Like, I just don't really understand that psyche.

And so that's actually a really interesting thing to think about too, because what if your kid grows up to be the bully? Yeah. I mean, Derek, I've definitely thought about this because when, when Eric was mentioning about middle school being tough, that was my tough time. I had to fight through middle school because there was a group of bullies that I had to face. And, and I know their backgrounds, like growing after a while in high school, they came from broken homes and they,

As an adult, you can think back and be like, okay, I can forgive them. They came from a bad environment. What can I do?

And that's probably why they have all this aggression and, you know, building up. I mean, they might have been beaten. Yeah. Right? They're like, I mean. There's multiple reasons. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, and just, this might be a little too specific, but in that group of bullies that I'm thinking about, because they call themselves a certain name, right? What was the name? The Hit Squad. And. Yeah.

So hilarious. It's like bringing back memories when I was 12. But I remember this one kid that was part of the group, but I know that he came from a good family. But he had to try to fit in culturally with the group. And so he had to come across as hard, quote unquote. And literally one time he came up to me and he tried to bully me.

And I grew up with this kid. I know this kid. I'm like, what the fuck are you trying to do? Get the fuck out of here. You're not a bully. You eight-miled him. Yeah. Remember eight-mile, the final rap battle? Exactly. It's like, you ain't a bully. You come from a good family. Get the fuck out of here. And called him out. But yeah, so I think that's one of the reasons why there are bullies. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of reasons behind that. Or maybe like...

a desperation to climb the social hierarchy at that age. And so you think that it's like almost a self-defense thing. Like, okay, if I'm with the bullies, then I'm on the top, I'll be near the top of the food chain. And you try to cement your place there by,

- I mean, I think just mainly like when you're growing up, like what are the things that drive you, like your behaviors? And if your focus is on like bullying, there's like probably not a lot of good stuff going on in your life. I mean, it's probably quite sad. Like what's happening at home, like you're definitely probably,

I shouldn't say definitely, but I would guess that you're being bullied and traumatized at home all the time. Otherwise, where would you learn that behavior? Because kids are just like mimics. They're literally like mimics. And so like, where would you learn that behavior? If all of the sort of normal things are happening in your life, like where would you even have time for this kind of stuff? Like you would be focused on building relationships with other types of people. And then bullies, like they hang out with other, well, I guess there's bullies that are just loners.

I think there's like the solo bullies and then there's like the group of the hit squad kind of bullies as well. Yeah, and it only takes one person to start that group because going back to my example in high school, that overcompensating alpha kid I was talking about, I think maybe people were afraid to be victims of his harassment and abuse.

And so they just joined in on with him. So if they're like, okay, well, I better be on his side then. So I remember noticing even other friends of mine

would kind of just join in on what he was doing and laugh at what he was doing as if it was like the funniest thing and this guy's being so funny, right? Even though it's like really not that funny, they would be like part of his crew, right? And then they would mimic the same behavior to be like, oh, I'm in with you guys. Because the alpha has arisen. Yeah. The crew has followed. Exactly. So you have that people where people are just afraid and they'll be, they'll join in. Even if they weren't like maybe like,

or going through the same, like maybe if they're not from a broken home or whatever trauma they've been through, they'll just join in just because, you know, kind of the whole social hierarchy thing at that age is real. And-

You do all sorts of crazy things to fit in. And I mean, it's not just kids, like adults, like that same shit applies for adult behavior too, right? There's always that alpha and you'll see people even at our age joining in, hopping on the bandwagon to do or act certain ways to fit in and to meet certain demands that they seem will benefit them. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the adult thing

equivalent of the bullying a lot of times come from just a sort of like a power struggle right just people who are willing to do whatever it takes to gain the upper hand in some way or another that can also be misconstrued as bullying yeah well and i just like i mean to maybe to just to end like and this so we can move on to like some other quick hit topics but it's just like

The role of helping your own children also become good people and develop emotional regulation, kindness. The lack of compassion in these bullies is very alarming. But compassion is something that has to be role modeled. And I just want to add one more thing. Because we didn't really talk about what can you do to remedy the bullying.

Because what can you do? Well, we don't know. I mean, actually, we don't really know the answer to that question. But just in general, is there a systemic way to end bullying? I don't think so. Because every case is different. Exactly. So I think it really comes down to one thing. I think the only way to combat bullying is sort of like what you just said, Justin. You kind of have to figure it out. Sorry, Eric was saying it. Sorry, Eric was saying it. Sorry. With Anne's parents. Yeah, with Anne's parents. You kind of have to figure out how to remedy it.

from a case-by-case basis because there is no systemic way to cure bullying. You can't cure bullying in high school. You can't cure bullying in your workforce. It's not curable. But the only thing you can do is to sort of protect yourself

you know, from the bullying and know how to handle it on a case-by-case basis. Or like what Anne's parents did, like they broke it down like a problem to solve. Yeah. And you broke it down to its parts and try to address those parts. Yeah. At the same time, you're giving them kind of words of wisdom about the bigger picture here and these are struggles you're just going to have to overcome. And if they can get over these like,

one little problem at a time, the biggest takeaway I got from that was that it builds the confidence that you can solve your own problems. And that's huge for a kid to learn.

That's huge. That's everything. Yeah. And bullies will, bullies are always going to target like the weakest, the weakest. Or what they perceive as. Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I mean, there's a lot of things I think like once you get to a point where like you see a lot of bullying, then there's something already that has gone wrong, you know, for you, like way before that, you know? So. Cool. Well, I think that was pretty interesting to talk about bullying. Yeah. I thought about that in a while. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, let's do some quick hits. Let's do some quick hits. But you guys can tell me what you want to talk about, right? So AI race is heating up, right, with Google Gemini. I heard that you guys had a conversation about AI without me. Yeah. We did. Was it Snoozefest 2023? One of the best episodes we've ever done. Probably our best rated episode because we actually know what we're talking about. Taylor Swift says,

Time Magazine Person of the Year. So, you know, that was an interesting one. Now, yeah, I- Why don't we just give her the Nobel Peace Prize? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yes. Taylor Swift is huge. And then Otani.

Oh, the huge contract? 700 million dollars. Yes. And then sports related also, LeBron James and the Lakers just won the NBA Cup. Oh, they just won? Yeah. Oh. In-season tourney? Yeah. And then there's a bunch of polarization. There was a Republican debate. So, yeah, I don't know. Let's stay away from the NBA thing. I don't think our listeners care about the NBA. NBA? No? Okay. Otani? Yes. Yes.

But regardless, I think what you were saying, the holy grail, that idea of immediate real-time reaction and conversation with AI to be able to problem solve and do things for you, especially if you put it in a robotic skeleton. That's exactly, that's where my first thought came. When you guys were talking about this Gemini thing, talking about monkey model, I was talking about, yes, the combination of that technology and

combined with robotics. Yeah, that's the next step. They're already testing it. So then they can perceive the world in real time and react. They need to do that. And you're giving the AI intelligence dexterous abilities to actually manipulate the world. Yeah, they can then really do shit for you. But I...

Where I see this is like Chad Shippity has that voice mode that we were doing. And like, it was kind of, we were doing it on the show last week and it was kind of like flaky, but it was like pretty decent because you could start talking to it and fairly real time. Right. And go back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. Go back and forth. And then you could just be like, Hey, give me a couple of examples of us in that. Right. So that ability to go back and forth is really important. Yeah. And I think it'll be really useful. So I, but I think,

It's just like another technology in 10, 20, 30 years. I think humans will still have the upper hand and we'll just be using this in our service. Yeah, we'll see. Can we get back to the Taylor Swift thing, please? That's so much more interesting to me.

Why is Taylor Swift more interesting to you? No, no. She's not more. The fact that she got Time Person of the Year is very interesting. Didn't Sam Altman? Do you have a beef with that? Didn't Sam Altman win that? No. He was CEO of the Year. Oh, CEO of the Year. Taylor Swift got Person of the Year. That's my question. I don't know. What? I'm not immediately against it. I just want to know what are the factors for that, given all the other shit that's going on in the world and other people...

involved in all the other... Why is she the person of the year? Why is that? Eric, can you share with us why? Is there criteria? I don't know what the criteria is. I have no idea. I did read part of the article from Time Magazine. My friends are huge fans, but if I were to... Can you chat to me? If I were to briefly summarize, it would be like her...

incredible impact and influence as a cultural figure, like an economic powerhouse and a musician. I mean, I think she has impacted like $5 billion, like more impactful than even like Sam Altman or something like that, right? Just in terms of like economically.

culturally like she starts dating you know Travis Kelsey in the NFL and NFL is already like the most popular freaking you know sports in the US and then like she becomes the headline of that and then this just whole phenomenon like she broke like her concert last year the ticket sales like broke all of the systems and

just her level of popularity is so, I mean, this is North America, right? When you talk about person, but I think globally she has massive, massive, massive impact. And she's just known as like the way she stays fit. Like, like her concerts are legendary. They're like three or four hours nonstop. Like, I mean, she is like incredible sort of performer. So at the level of like Beatles, like,

Elvis in terms of her impact like culturally and from a music perspective. And then if you run the numbers economically, just a powerhouse. So she's just a really wildly successful artist.

I would give... It's like to me, but it's the same as like, well, if you can name Kim, then you can name Kim Kardashian like person of the year. But you know, I would put her... I don't think Kim Kardashian comes anywhere close in terms of her fan base. Like the Taylor Swift fan base is like insane. It's like Beatlemania. But I'm going to put her against the Michael Jackson test, man. I mean, Michael Jackson. But people are already putting her against Michael Jackson and the Beatles.

No, but even if... Let's say Michael Jackson was around today and it was the height of his legendary career. I would still probably have maybe an issue of him winning the person of the year. Why...

With all the crazy shit and really important, like truly important shit that's going on. You don't think that her positive impact on the world is actually an antidote to all the crazy shit that you're talking about? Maybe it is. That's ignorance, if anything. I'm just not in her world. So I don't know any Taylor Swift songs. I don't know anything. I just know she's very popular. I know of her. So I'm not in that world. So maybe I'm very biased because I'm just like, well, this is coming out of left field for me.

But maybe, I guess, if you're really into popular culture, you know all about her, maybe it's not so just out of left field. I just don't know. I don't know anything about her. Let's back up. Let's back up, right? Because if we look at her impact as a cultural icon, like all that stuff, clearly she makes a strong case because she's broken all the records in terms of that, right? But let's back up because what you're saying is that being a cultural icon, economic powerhouse, that's not necessarily the criteria. Right.

If that was the criteria, she's like number one. Like she crushes, right? I mean, all the data is there. Like you can do the research, right? Because as you say, you haven't done... You don't know anything about her, right? Okay. She's changed the music industry. She brought her own catalog back, right? Because like all her music was owned by like another record company. I mean, she basically calls the fucking shots. Like no one has ever had that much power in the music industry. And she does it... And by all accounts, she's like a really, really good person, et cetera, et cetera, right? Okay. But let's put all that aside, right? What...

on any year, who becomes person of the year? What would your definition be? - What would be the criteria? - Yeah, what is the criteria, right? 'Cause you just shot it down, right? What is the criteria? - Maybe I'm just equating person of the year

year to like the similar status of like willing the nobel peace peace prize so to me like i'm just putting that like maybe i shouldn't maybe it's like completely two different things and they have two different i know it is two different things but i'm saying like six different nobel prizes i know but i'm saying like the stature in terms of the impact on the world i thought was like because like you had nelson mandela like a person of the year like okay okay

Obama, first black president, right? Okay, I can understand that. So it has to be a politician? No, it doesn't have to be a politician. I was just thinking in terms of like really impacting the world. I mean, I guess Taylor Swift really impacts the world. Like she has no impact on me personally, but I'm not part of that world. Okay, well, let's go back and actually see. Like I'm not saying she doesn't deserve it. I'm just saying it just came out of left field for me because I guess my perception of being the person of the year is,

is well let's go back let's go back and look at who was actually selected first right let's actually like i mean it came out of left field for you but if you don't know anything about it then it's kind of that's a pretty yeah yeah not a very putting a lot of credence into time magazines personally

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Well, to me, because that's like big. Yeah, it's a pretty big thing, right? But let's just, we don't know anything about it, okay? So last year, Zelensky, okay? The year before that, Elon. The year before that, Biden and Harris. The year before that, I don't even know. Greta Thunberg. Thunberg. Climate activist. Yeah, climate. You don't know Greta? No, I don't. Okay, the Guardians, the year before. The Guardians of the Galaxy? Yeah.

What guardians? I guess they're just journalists. Oh, so journalists who were violently attacked or slapped with criminal charges. So that's more of a metaphorical thing, right? 2017 was the silence breakers. So the Me Too people.

Donald Trump, 2016. - So it's all been political. - Not all political, but Merkel. - Pretty much all political. - Ebola fighters was 2014, right? - Okay, so this kind of proved important. - So you had journalists. - So Taylor Swift is kind of left field given the history here. - Pope Francis, Barack Obama. Okay, 2011 was the protester. It was Zuckerberg, Bernanke, Obama, Putin, you.

You were 2006. Bono, Melinda Gates, and Bill Gates because of their philanthropic work. Bush, the American soldier before that, the whistleblowers. Yeah, you don't need to keep going back. So kind of, okay, that gives us, yeah.

So Taylor Swift is a little bit, like got a little bit out of left field. Come on. You have to give me that much. I don't think it's given that. I don't think it's out of left field. I mean, left field would be like someone you never heard of, right? Like it'd be, you, you could say that it is unexpected, but I wouldn't say out of left field. I equate the same. I think what Justin's trying to get at. And my same question I don't have answered yet is what is the, her, what is her actual positive impact on society? Like,

I don't care about how much she's making. What do you think it is? I don't know. I'm asking. I don't know. I don't know anything about Taylor either. Is she doing some amazing philanthropic work? Is she donating all of her salary because that's never been done before? I mean, I don't know.

Is she just selling records and getting her album back? What does the article say about her? Did you read the article? There's a lot. I don't remember all the details. I'm looking at the article right now. I mean, it talks about her career, right? It talks about the positive economic impact that she's made across the world, right?

Let's see what else. So I guess maybe there's not one thing that stands out that she did that's like groundbreaking. I mean, she's very well respected for her integrity. That's one thing. Like she's helped a lot of... Okay, so I'm just looking through stuff, right? I mean, I'm not trying to justify. I'm just saying things.

She has helped a lot of indie artists through her influence. Like she's done a lot of work. What artist? Indie artists. Oh, indie. Like artists. She's really stuck up for them.

and used her power and her influence to be able to, um, to help them. I think she's, her character is very, very well respected. And then, um, people, and this is, you know, you might consider this blasphemy, but people are, there are now people that are comparing the lyrics of her song to like Dylan and words like William Wordsworth. So there are courses at different universities where they're actually looking at her lyricism and comparing it to fame. It like William Wordsworth, right. Uh, uh,

- Does the article put into context her positive economic impact on the world? - Well, she's worth a billion dollars herself. - I know, that's how much it's worth, but what's the positive economic impact? Like how do people around the world benefit-- - From her existence? - Economically? - What do you mean how, 'cause she does concerts all around, it's like the Olympics, right? - So she's making a lot of money, people around her are making a lot of money, how is the world,

Because she's creating economic activity. It's like people are doing stuff. I get that. Yeah, and I'm explaining things, and then you're just dismissing them, right? I'm not dismissing. I'm asking more questions based on your... Think about everything you're saying. You're like, oh, nothing just... It's so dismissive to me, right? And I'm just talking through... To you, nothing in the article... Nothing economic is like... Nothing economic is like... Right? This isn't going to... How... Is there...

What do you think? I think you're taking his reaction personally, which you shouldn't, because you are just bringing up an article. You didn't write the article. You didn't say it. Yeah, I don't know the article. Exactly. So don't get upset about it. I'm not directing this towards you. You should not get upset at all, like zero, at all. You have no connection to this at all. But what am I doing wrong here? I have no idea. I think it just became personal somehow. I have no idea how. So what do you think, Howie?

I already said that. I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift. I don't know much about her. And I'm just waiting to hear what's the positive impact she has, whether it's philanthropic or anything else that's really affecting everyday people. Let me ask you this. Would there be any entertainment artists that you feel like...

could be considered for this award, right? - Entertainment artist? - Yeah, yeah, I'm curious because it seems more of an argument of like, should anyone in the entertainment arena be part of this, right? I mean, not like Taylor. It's just like, because you could ask that without any entertainment artist. - You said Bono was part of it with the Gates. - Bono was part of it because it is a philanthropic and he was with Gates. So it wasn't like himself.

I think it could just- Like Coldplay, for instance, right? Could Coldplay ever- Yeah, so I think that's what it is, is that we're putting a certain value to entertainers, and that value is obviously not enough to be-

in running for a person of the year when you're putting them against other people that may have other type of positive impact on society. Now, that doesn't mean that I think that no entertainer can win. Without getting more informed about Taylor Swift and all the endeavors she's done, you can't just be on the merit of how much entertainment value she has provided the people. Maybe because I'm not putting that much merit on entertainment then.

Yeah, maybe. It's just a question. I mean, I don't know. I wonder if Bob Dylan ever won Person of the Year, right? I wouldn't be surprised if he did back then, right? Like such a cultural icon. I don't know. Yeah, but it's definitely interesting. What about the Beatles? Did the Beatles win People of the Year? Okay, so for example, when the Beatles came out, what they did to music...

was a bit revolutionary. Right? And what Elvis Presley did when he first came out, because it's something that is unprecedented and...

Well, Elvis Presley is debatable. There's a whole community of people that would push back on Elvis. Maybe. Because they say he just took music, copied music from the black community. Yeah. Sure. So, but nonetheless. No, no, but I get you as an icon. That iconic movement, that iconic, like you can put your finger on one thing.

that you can say, okay, I get it. Well, if it's iconic, then maybe Taylor Swift does fit the mold because I guess from everything I'm hearing about who she is, she would be like the icon of today, right? But what does she do that is different than any other people that have gone before her? That's what I'm saying. Like, what's that thing that you put your finger on? That's my criteria, I guess. If there's like one thing, I think it's just the sheer...

rabidness of the fan base, right? And like, it's not like no one has hit that level before, but it seems to approach that Presley and Beatles level. I was just looking at an article here and it says that the U.S. Travel Association noted that the total economic impact of

of her era's tour, which is the one now, could exceed $10 billion. And so Northeastern University call it Swiftonomics or Taylornomics. This professor from there kind of commenting on that. That's crazy. $10 billion? Yeah. So because people traveling, restaurants, whatever, but basically it's like pretty crazy. That's crazy. $10 billion. All right. All right, Taylor Swifties. Swifties, is that what they call the fans? I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know.

justin revels watch me like ignorance watch me like actually be but see that's the thing he loves doing i'm just like trying to hide it he loves like so whatever the big thing out there is and maybe this is what i take issue with something sometimes it's like he then he feigns complete ignorance and but i am he is ignorant but he loves right he he prides himself like oh like i don't even touch that shit right i don't

I don't know. Like that iPhone stuff, I don't fucking know what's going on. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. I have no idea. But I really don't. Like, I'm not afraid to do it, but I don't know something. But he loves it. It's like he's bragging about the fact that he doesn't know. I don't know about that. Right? And he'll highlight that, and then he'll be like, then he'll stick his nose in it, right? And he's like, oh, I don't know. And then I'll ask questions, which I think you should do when you don't know about something. Yeah, I think that's good.

But I want to, for some reason. But she creates a massive, like the, because I'm, I have listened to her music before, but I'm not a Swifty, obviously. Right. But the, the level of just fanaticism with her and the fact that she could become the headline for the NFL. To me, that was impressive. You mean like halftime show? No, no.

When she started dating Travis Kelsey, she took over all the headlines. Like that became the biggest news in the whole NFL to the point where the NFL people were like, the people that are fans of the NFL were getting pissed off. Like it was big. It was such big news that that, like the NFL games were,

like how often do you have like someone then overshadow the game itself? And the people, the reporters in the game, the stations were all basically leveraging her to build even more publicity. And the NFL was actually, there were a few things that they did to take advantage of Swift's popularity. Like that's how big she was. So when you think about a female performer who talks about her stuff and her stories, like,

and her vulnerability and all this stuff, right? And then the NFL,

then piggybacks on her. Like, I'm not saying that she deserves to be a person of the year because of that. I'm just saying like, to me, it's impressive. Anyone who could do that, like at the NFL level, like that's pretty fucking crazy. Right. She took over all the headlines. Like Jason, Kelsey Taylor Swift, like, I mean, Travis Kelsey, like they have a podcast. That's like the number one, one of the top podcasts. And like, just people were hanging on every word.

And then when all of those Swifties started watching NFL games, the NFL was like, hell yeah. People not named Howie. That's for sure. I just tuned out. Or Justin. But anyway, pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. $22,000, I think, was some of the tickets. It's just crazy, right? Why? Well, there's no doubt she's impressive and massively successful. Sure. Yeah.

Let's move on. I'm so over Taylor Swift. Let's move on. Person of the year. Come on. Gotta give it up. What else? I think that's about it. What else we got? We covered a lot of random ground. I know. Let's keep the random because I'm going to call back to something that is off air.

that I asked Justin after recording one of our 101 episodes when Eric was back in the States. We basically said, we got to talk about this on air. It's a quick question. It's not like a long conversation, but it's more of, do you remember, I don't know how this came up, but I asked you, how do you wipe your ass? Do you remember that? You're like, what? I just spit my drink out. Yeah, I do remember that.

Yeah, we're talking about like do you wipe back front to back or back to front? What were we talking about? Oh, no, no, squat. No, I forgot. I forgot how it came up, but it was the funniest thing because it was so random. Oh, no, I remember. I remember I was telling you that how in the recent years I changed my wiping game, my protocol. And once you change it, you can never go back. So what I do is I use wet wipes now. Oh, yes. Yes. I use flushable. These are biodegradable wet wipes that are flushable.

Is there a certain brand that you like? Yeah, I think it's by Kleenex. I think actually Kleenex makes it. All right, Kleenex, if you're listening. I think. I got to check. So this off-air or on-air? You get it off-air. It was off-air. We're talking about this off-air. We're doing an on-air now. Now we're doing an on-air. But you get it on Taobao. You can get a bunch of them. Anyway, so what I do now is I wipe with the wet wipes. I get it clean, and I dry it off with normal toilet paper. And...

After you do that, it's like using a bidet. Once you use it, you can never just go back to regular dry wiping. I can never go back to regular dry wiping. And whenever I do, let's say I'm out, I'm not home, dry wiping, I just feel icky now. It's just not the same. Wait, so you use dry wipes and then how do you dry it? No, no, I use wet wipes and then I dry it with normal toilet paper.

So at the end, I'll give it one pass with the normal dry toilet paper to dry off. Would you settle for using a bidet or one of those Toto toilets and then with the stream? Yeah, if I had one of those, sure. But wet wipes to me is like because I can really get in there with a wet wipe and I'm like in full... I don't know. I just like the wet wipes. Yeah, so then I came in and I said, I'm bidet 100%, right? With the water flushing and to

to me, I use wet wipes when I have to do the squat.

So when I don't have the portion of my hair. When you're out in public? Yeah. Oh, so you bring wet wipes with you? I have one always in my bag. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, that's even another level. I don't even do that. Yeah, or it's in my office as well. Maybe I should start. But anyway, so then something else popped in my mind, which is when I got my mind blown when I was around 23 years old. I was talking with my friends at a restaurant and one of my friends casually brought up

that when he wipes his butt, he scrumps together toilet paper from the front and digs out, right? And everybody else was like, what? First of all, you don't fold, you know? And secondly, you don't go from the back?

And that's a thing. And there's somebody else in the table that was like, yeah, I do the front as well. No, so that reminded me because when I was little, I used to not fold the toilet paper and I would just scrunch it up into a ball and wipe. I remember doing that. Yeah, I remember doing that.

But I can't imagine doing that. And I remember saying, what does Eric do? Yeah, what's your wiping protocol here? What's Eric? I'm pretty conventional, but... What is conventional? So you're dry wipe all the way? Yeah. Ooh, you have a dirty butt. But let me...

Let me share the nuance. But it's dirty right now. I would use so much paper. I was like, so, so pot song, right? So I'm kind of like have the same sentiment. You have to use the whole roll. But I didn't have like the wet ones. And I would use so much that the toilet would clog my dad would be like, motherfucker. He gets so- I bet your butt shaves too, right? No, because we would get the Charmin, like the triple ply, like blah, blah, blah, blah.

So it would be like, I mean, I just used a lot of... Yeah, a lot of... I know what you mean. A lot of... But it brings to mind, because I read about this a few years ago, which is, I believe, Dwayne Wade...

There was an article, and I know it was definitely a basketball player, right? But they were interviewing, and I think it was Dwayne Wade. I have to go back and look, because this is back when Dwayne Wade was, you know, like at the peak. He was peak, right, in the NBA. And he said, like, same exact sentiment that you guys just shared. He's like, I can't live without web wipes. And it's like he wipes his ass with web wipes. Yeah. You should try it, man. You have to try it. Game changer. It's so clean. And it'll be more eco-friendly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But okay, front or back? Back. Scrumped or folded? Folded. No, I mean, I put like a sponge...

Like 30-ply fold. That's why when I go to those... I rarely, rarely, rarely ever go to any other restaurant outside. But the Once in a Blue Moon, because they're so fucking cheap. And I'm like, these idiots, right? So they get this super cheap paper. But I literally use the whole roll. So I fucking... So it defeats the purpose. It defeats the whole purpose. Because I literally have to be like...

Otherwise, your fingers poke through. It is so thin. And you know how it's so thin that you just pull it a little harder and it just rips? That's the worst. So I have to very gently, surgically do it. And then literally, it's like...

Like, all the way down to the ground, but like 10 times. Yeah. Like, to and from the moon. Like, you go to and from the moon like 10 times. Like, kilometers worth. Yeah, like kilometers, right? And my dad's just like, why? And I'm like, well, it would be dirty. Well, no, because the paper, like, it's so thin, it's like basically see-through. Yeah. It's like tracing paper. And I hate it because, like you said, your fingers are

pop through, it's game over. It's game over. If your fingers pop, you're in a real pickle then. It's happened before, and you don't want that to happen. You're in a real pickle. But I'll tell you, the secret, though, is just making sure that you really expel everything. Like when you're pooping, there's nothing left. Like, oh, you didn't finish the job. Well, I mean, I don't want to get too gross, but sometimes you can't prevent it, right? No, you got to finish the job. You got to just sit there.

you know, and take the extra time and make sure that you're done. You're like, you're really done because the last thing you want to do is you're not really done. You thought you were done. You wipe it. The never ending wipe. Oh yeah. The never ending wipe. They call that the magic marker. Is that what it's called? Yeah, because it feels like you're wiping a magic marker. Yeah.

You're always getting the mark there. It won't stop. I hate that. I hate that. It's the worst. What do you do? It's the worst. And you never get it clean. You just have to give up and just settle with, okay, I have a dirty butt. Yeah. And then leave because otherwise you'd be spending another 30 minutes on the butt. Exactly. It's worth it, though. It's worth it.

I didn't know that other people had that problem too. You didn't know? No, I thought it was just me. You thought you were alone in the world with that problem? That's even funnier.

You thought you were alone in the world with that... Oh, man. Eric was alone in the corner like, I'm the only person in the world with a never-ending wave. I'm the only one... The pain and isolation he must have felt. The defect... I'm the only one with a defective ass. This explains so much about your personality. That must have been so traumatic. Oh, God. That's the worst. I remember whenever that happened, like, oh, fuck! Like, I could swing. Yeah, when you get one of those. Are you back? You're back, right? Or are you front? Oh, so... Okay. Okay.

Full honesty, I mix it up. You do front? What? You lied. You were trying to be cool, like down with me. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, so I don't do front. That's not my default. But as I'm wiping occasionally, I'll give it one front pass sometimes. Okay.

Okay, let me explain myself. I just want to think about this. This is terrible. Let me explain myself. I've realized that there are certain times when you're wiping and you're just doing the back and you think you're clean. Like there's nothing showing, nothing clean. And you give it a front wipe. There's shit there. Trust me. Try it next time.

So when you go the other direction, you'll realize actually your butt's not that clean. Ooh. Yeah. So that changed. I tried that once. I noticed it. And so I do that. I don't do it every time, but every now and then I'll give it one front pass. Has it ever like tapped your balls when you're like pulling? No, no, no. So it gets in the way, right? Exactly. I don't, I don't. Excuse me, sir. Yeah.

Can you move aside? I don't reach from the front, but I'll go in the direction of the front. Oh, okay. From the back. Okay, okay, okay. I thought you were reaching. No, no, no. I would have to stand up from the toilet and then go put my... That's so much work. No. I go in the direction. I go frontwards direction, but from the back. Okay. I'm not a psycho. Okay, okay. I'm glad that it's clarified. Let me see.

Yeah, you go back and forth, of course. What do you mean? So in one wipe, you go back and forth? You go back and forth in one wipe? What? What? I don't know. So it's already dirty on the first pass, and then you're smearing it back on the second pass. I'm trying to think. I just, like, I don't know. Oh, my God. We're learning so much right now. Wow. We are now officially real friends.

This is... No, sorry. I think I go from front to back. With one swell motion. Yeah, one motion. And then you... No, no, you don't. Yeah. And then you fold it in half and then you go one more time and then you have to maybe reload. Yeah. Wait, wait. So you go like that?

No, just one direction. One direction. One direction. Yeah, okay. So it's not so weird, okay. I thought he was going both directions. Like back and forth? No, because I think he's just lying now because that is kind of what you said in the beginning and now you're just kind of going back anyway. I have to like think about it, right? Oh, it's so good. Well, I'm glad you guys are, you know, thorough.

No, but it was just one of those questions that came up randomly after recording that we're like, that's a good discussion because we never talk about it. It's something that's very private. It's not us. No one ever talks about it. Yeah, it's a very private thing, but it's kind of eye-opening when you start talking. Well, I'll just share one story around that front kind of thing, right? So, like, one time, like, way back in the day in junior high,

And I don't remember why this happened. Maybe the guy didn't close the door or something like that. But I remember we walked in the bathroom and then we saw a kid and he was doing it from the front, like literally from the front. So you caught him in the middle of wiping? Yeah, in the middle of doing it. And then everyone just laughed hysterically. And it was just like... Girls do it from the front, right? That's what they do? Maybe. I don't know. I think usually it's when they're peeing, just kind of a little touch up, but...

I don't know. All I know is that when I heard my friend say, first of all, the surprise was bunching. So it wasn't, and he gave a reason why bunching not folding. He said, bunching creates all these crevices so that when you're like, well,

Well, cleaning, it gets even better chunks. That used to be what I think, but that's not true because the crevices don't create a solid contact patch for you to get a good wipe. So you're missing a lot of contact. No, if you think about it, it's like, okay, I mean, it's probably not as flat as the surface, right?

but you need to like wipe it multiple times. And I can see why the wet wipes is good. Cause if you are wiping a surface of your table, right, you need to make sure that like you get everything, all the, let me ask you something right now. If there was a smudge of shit on this table, um,

would you just wipe it with a dry tissue and be like, okay, we're good? You wouldn't. No. You would squirt like Windex or whatever. Yeah, yeah, totally. You get it wet. You wipe it off. But the fact that with our butts, for so long, we were just dry wiping and then expecting like, okay, our butts are fine. Great results. Well, I mean, I think that just at a more...

meta level it's like everyone wipes their butts like I mean I think everybody yeah like every like it doesn't matter how rich you are if you're a time person of the year Taylor Swift wipes her butt whoever like maybe someone wipes her butt for her probably wet wipes too yeah well I mean like you know oh I'm sure Taylor's a wet wipe kind of person cause kids kids like their parents wipe their butt I mean you know my mom might wipe my butt until a certain age yeah we use wet to wipe our kids butts yeah

Yeah, so the stigma of talking about this stuff should be lifted because...

Because we should be sharing, like, everyone should be sharing, like, better tips, right? Yeah, better strategies to keep a clean butthole. I mean, like, everyone has to do it. I think we just discovered a new section in our podcast, which is life tips. Wet wipes, guys. Just, like, daily little things. Well, if you were, like, a kid in China, like, and then, like, you're, you know, like, they have their butt sometimes exposed, then, you know, then you would really care about it. Now it's just covered up. No one knows if you have a clean one or, you know? But you do. You know? You know?

Well, I know Eric is going to take a shit when he brings a mountain of tissues to the bathroom. That was funny. To the moon and back. That was funny. Yeah. All right. Well, that's it for today, folks. I'm Justin. I'm Howie. And I'm not Time Magazine Person of the Year. Be good. Be well. Peace.