Work expenses. Company or employee responsibility?
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You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Yang. I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Ding Heng in the studio. Coming up, ever feel like you're paying for your job? It's a trend called 倒贴,上班 in Chinese.

This trend is where workers cover their own work expenses for things such as software, courses, or even client-related expenses.

Is this the cost of career growth or should employers be picking up the tab? And whether it's the world of pop culture, technology or something that touches your heart, we're here to discuss in our Heart to Heart segment. Email us at roundtablepodcast at qq.com. And if you're feeling bold, please send us a voice memo. It's always a win.

Oh, and if you could be so kind, please include your name and region of residence so we know a little bit more about you when we are discussing your question.

In our podcast, listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. Now let's switch gears. Here is a question that's been buzzing around the web lately. Should workers have to cover their own work-related expenses? The term 倒贴上班 in Chinese or paying

paying for your job has become a hot topic in discussions about the modern workplace, especially among younger generations. From paying for online courses to covering software costs or even buying new business attire, what's the right balance between personal investment and fair compensation? So guys, what constitutes as paying for or subsidizing your own job? How do we talk about that?

Even the term, the term doesn't sound good, right? Paying for your own job. Well, I think it would encompass various practices or scenarios where

employees incur expenses related to their daily jobs. Like we're talking about, for example, direct financial outflows like purchasing software subscriptions, office supplies, the so-called professional way of addressing yourself.

client entertainment. If you are working in a company, I think that's important. If you have to deal with your clients, with your partners, that's a very important issue. And of course, travel expenses, software and technology. Basically, workers need to subscribe to

paid software services or even providing their own computers in some cases. And for example, training and development, the career development,

in the sense that many people or some people are paying for these professional training courses or certification to enhance their professional skills. And also don't forget this level, it tends to be neglected in some circumstances.

emotional labor in the sense that you need to manage difficult colleagues or superiors, suppressing your personal feeling to help maintain a so-called positive work environment and engaging in those kind of unpaid working overtime, et cetera, et cetera. That's an interesting one. Everything you said up until that point about software subscriptions and office supplies and

how to dress for work, buying your own clothes and, uh,

getting extra certificates to help your career. All of that made sense. This one I had never heard of before, emotional labor, where you have to emotionally support your coworkers. I'm not sure if that comes under subsidizing your own job or not. But yeah, when we talk about, this is a really divisive issue. And I think that the reason it's a divisive issue is because, as you mentioned, Dingham, there's just so many different areas of,

where this becomes a question, right? If you want to have a really nice pen for your desk, well, whose responsibility is that? Is it the company's responsibility to get you a really nice pen? Or does that fall on you because you want a really nice pen, not just any old run-of-the-mill pen? There's lots of different ways to talk about this. Okay, let me give you an example. Because for most office workers these days, you have to use the computer. But if your office computer isn't

just is so slow. And like Ding Hu mentioned, you have to read these international publications. You feel like you would do a better job if you do that. But if your company isn't really providing that, you know, and also for like an average office worker, if my chair, the one that's provided by the company, doesn't offer any limber support and then you're just struggling sitting in that wooden chair, then

Would you get your own one? And Steve, you're from Canada and you've been around the world. Like, how would you or your fellow peers at home feel about this? Would they succumb and buy their own stuff, pay this money? Well, I looked this up. My gut reaction before I looked up anything was the Canadian government

It's hard to talk about the whole country because, yeah, but just for generalization sake, I think the Canadian response to this would be, no, I'm not going to use my own money for work. That's ridiculous. If you want me to do work on a work slowly on a bad computer, then I'm going to work slowly on a bad computer. If you want me to do better than buy me a new computer, I think that would be the general response.

But I did. I wanted to go deeper than my own personal opinion, so I looked it up. I found a Canadian HR human resources website called HRreporter.com. And I thought this was interesting. They say, on average, Canadians spend $26 per day or $6,760 per year to go to the office for

full time. That was according to a report that was released in 2022. I've never thought about doing math like that. The cost of going to work. It's quite interesting to think about. Yes. And what does that what does that

comprise of? Well, if you think about, well, if we just think about our own daily lives, right? The commute to work. And again, those were for people who go to the office full time every day. Gas to put in your car or public transportation costs or getting your lunch if it's not provided by the company. And in Canada, as far as I know, a lot of companies don't provide lunch for their employees. Just all the dollars you spend throughout the day

just to go to and from work and the time in between as well. Wow. That's, yeah. Many of these issues are,

There is really a blurred line between these things. Are we talking about our daily life or our daily job? Yeah, for example, if you want to park your car in a parking lot and somehow your company does not provide a free parking lot for your car. Okay, so I'll get to how Canada kind of defines this whole thing.

So this is from a Canadian government website. Reimbursement of work. And I'm going to read to you exactly what it said on the website. Reimbursement of work related expenses require requires employers to reimburse employees for reasonable work related expenses paid out of pocket by the employee. And they have to pay that back within specific time limits.

An expense must be reimbursed by the employer when it meets all eligibility criteria. Okay, so you're thinking, what's the eligibility criteria? Here it is. To be eligible to be reimbursed by your company, an expense must meet the following four criteria. The employee does not have to pay for the expense

because it was agreed upon between the employee and the company. The employee has to have had the paid expense out of pocket. It has to be related to work, and it has to be reasonable. As long as those four criteria are met, it is within reason to request, not only request that your company pay for that, but it's Canadian law that they have to. It's good to have that law. And don't you feel that you might see it a little differently? Like if I'm paying...

the bus ride or taxi fare to come to work then it's like all right I'll maybe I'll I'll pay from my monthly income that seems to be like maybe okay but when you're sometimes it's tacitly asked you of you know to pay for the computer yeah if the

Or the chair, the software, those kind of things. And then that becomes a major discussion point for people. And some feel like, okay, I'll pay for it. And others feel, no, hell no. Am I going to pay for that in China? So how do you see this? Yeah, I guess there is really a shift here in the sense that

it is really reflecting a kind of transformation in terms of how work is perceived, with the younger generation increasingly viewing their work as

a sort of transactional exchange of time and skill for fair compensation. I guess the younger generation of professionals are increasingly unwilling to shoulder the costs associated with their jobs, like all those things we have mentioned.

And this is really reflecting a heightened awareness of personal finances and a desire to avoid, say, financial burden, financial strain caused by all those work-related expenditures. Let's go through a few of these expenditures to see what we think is reasonable and what we think isn't reasonable.

Software subscription. Do you think that's a reasonable request? I don't think at all. Yeah, it should be provided by your employees. Like I need to pay for the latest edition of Word so I can process your documents for work? Hell no. Okay, so we agree that's a company expense. Office supplies. Pens, pencils, ticket notes, things like that.

Oh, really? I have really, I like some fancy stationery. Oh, okay. Well, then that's on you. I can bring my own for that. I'm okay. As long as the pencil works, I'm fine with it. And also the A4 paper. Yeah, right. For the script, no. No. No. Okay, so we're divided on that one. Client entertainment. Oh, what is it? Like paying to take clients out? To lunch or dinner or something like that. Yeah.

That's a tough one. Yeah, that's a tough one. Like in our industry, radio, if you want to invite someone to come to the studio to join our show, you pay him the money for his contribution. Sometimes it's like, it's, cause you know, um,

But to be on the platform is something that the guest willingly wants to do. So therefore, you know, sometimes it's not transactional monetary wise. Yeah, I know what you mean. Here's a big example of that. You know, the National Football League. Have you ever heard of the Super Bowl? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, the performers that perform there like Beyonce or Bruno Mars, they don't get paid. They don't get paid for that because the exposure is so much for them.

It's like 40, 50 million people watch that. But for a lot of people who work in sales, for example, why does this client come to you and not some other company, right? And then you have to build connection, guanxi. And that's, yeah. Yeah, on that, I think it really, at least, it should be subsidized by your company. I think 100% should be paid by the company, yeah. But what if the company is being really...

mean anal um in saying well in not saying anything and say and just go like oh steve if you want to you know boost your sales and be employer employee of the year you have to work it out and you have to be devoted to your job you gotta be going the extra mile than your other colleague you figure that out and this is the problem and this is why this is such a hot topic is because

If you say, no, I am not going to pay for my client's coffee or something like that, or my client's lunch, to use that as an example.

if the company doesn't provide that money you in my opinion you are in total you're in you're totally it's totally fair for you to say no but here's the problem if your co-worker who is also eligible for the next promotion says oh yeah i'll cover that don't worry about it well who's going to get the next promotion maybe maybe maybe exactly no i know i know and and how that

That's how we all think, you know? Yeah. That's how you ruin it for everyone. Yeah, so in a vacuum, it's easy to answer this question, but in reality, it's not so easy. And also for client entertainment, I guess it's pretty difficult to set a standard. Like if you take this client, go out for some entertainment, how much money you should be spending on this very occasion? Like if you can...

You use 300 yuan for a dinner, but somehow you ended up spending 800 yuan. Yeah. Yeah. And see, it is really complicated, actually. I've recently talked to a friend who works in, okay, he works in the legal business, but you need to get clients. And then apparently he told me like recently, let's say for only, quote unquote, only 30 yuan,

1,000 yuan was the amount of total payment he was going to get from this case, this client. And it's not a lot of money in the legal business, but he had to take his clients out for like a thank you dinner or something afterwards. And he said he spent like definitely more than 1,000. So that's quite an amount. And I was like,

that doesn't make any sense in business numbers wise. And he's like, He Yang, you don't understand. I mean, it's tough out there. I really need to get this client because this time, maybe it's only this amount of money that I can actually earn or maybe I'm operating in red. But if this client can come back to me in the future, maybe with a bigger case, then that's how I make my big bucks.

But don't you feel as, you know, you're the inferior one in this business transaction and you just feel to keep my job, to keep my position, to forward, to advance, then you're kind of...

You're kind of kidnapped in a way that you feel you're compelled, you're coerced without anybody actually shackling you down. But you're doing it. Yeah. What about the professional attire, the clothing side of things? What do you think about that? I have so much to say about this, but you go first, please. I feel like it should be provided, or at least... You think the company should pay for your clothes? We should wear uniforms? Yes.

Uh, if it's a work uniform, of course. I mean... Work uniform, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, work uniform. And if you are...

If you are a TV host and your regular appearance on TV screens, all those suits, ties, yeah, it should be subsidized, financially subsidized. Like your company gives you some money and you buy them on your own. If you're a TV show host, that clothing, does that stay in the department at the company or are those clothes that you can take home with you and wear on your own time? No, that's an important distinction. Okay, yes. Yeah.

Well, yeah, again, that's a difficult question, huh? Because I guess you need to sign a contract with the company. If it stays at the station, right, then it belongs to the company, then they should pay for it. But if you're going to be out at your friend's birthday party in the expensive TV show host suit...

I'm not so sure that falls on the company or not. But I think in a bigger picture sense, there was a time that workers here in China used to be more tolerant of sheltering these extra costs. You think so? My parents' generation, maybe. Because back then they were facing a totally different, not totally different, but very much different situation.

Economic context, maybe, like previous generations might have experienced different economic realities with lower wages, for example, and a great emphasis on collectivity, collective benefits versus your personal benefits. Company loyalty. Yeah, job security, this kind of stuff. But nowadays, the younger generation, this kind of mindset, mentality is...

I'm not saying it's fading away, but we have more thoughts. Yeah. And also, we aren't placing blames whatsoever here, but the employers have a role to play here as well in the sense that we don't have the kind of job security that Chinese people used to enjoy in the planned economy era, for example, or 20 years ago. And then

If you're not feeling that security, then no wonder younger workers are feeling otherwise. Right. Why would. Yeah. So if you don't have that sense of security in your position, then you probably feel like, why would I bother investing in my career with this particular company when I'm not even sure I'm going to be here in six months or 12 months time?

So invest in yourself, but that could mean, okay, pay out of your own pocket and join those online courses. Anyway, I think it's really interesting. Like there are just different ways of looking at this, but also at the back of my mind, I just think for the companies to have the audacity or the expectation to think that, oh, a fair number of your employees are going to cave in, in shouldering this cost and,

That is like a major no-no in my world. What about the clothing? You said you had a lot to say about that. What's your opinion? Oh.

How much longer do we have for this show? How much longer? I've been subsidizing myself from beginning to end, I know, because Ding Hong, I refuse to wear a uniform to work. Where's the room for creativity and expression? And yeah, so for me, see, who cares more loses. Yes, yes, that's the golden rule. In a relationship...

And for work as well. And I just cared that much. Coming up, let's have a moment of Heart to Heart. You ask. We answer. Roundtable. Heart to Heart. For today's Heart to Heart segment, we will start with a voice memo from our listener, Winter.

Hello He Yang, Niu Honglin, Steve Hadley, Yu Shun, Lai Ming and all of the hosts from Roundtable China. I'm Winter from Jiangxi Province. I just started to listen to Roundtable China since July this year. You must have no idea how much your podcast has helped me. I work in the Foreign Affairs Office of my provincial government, and English speaking for me is not a better to have skill, but a must-have one.

You may already know that spoken English is the weakest part for most Chinese students, though I majored in English at university. I still lack of confidence to speak out and don't know how to express myself correctly and precisely. Do you know how I learned from you?

I just repeat what you said simultaneously, word by word, when I was driving to work and back home every day. Through this process, I think I have cultivated a sense of speaking English as well as built my confidence.

And you not only helped me in improving my spoken English, but also broadening my horizon. Your podcast almost covers all industries, from technology to medicine to education to gaming to shopping and to everything. There are some trends or niche fields that I have even never heard of before. I've really learned a lot from you guys, and I will keep listening as long as you keep hosting Roundtable China.

Thank you so much for having such a wonderful program. Thank you so much, Winter from Jiangxi province. Wow. I was laughing when I was listening to Winter's message. Thank you, Winter, for it, by the way. But I was laughing because she says that she repeats everything we said. And about two minutes ago, He Yang said, I have been subsidizing myself from...

So I just imagine Winter driving in her car. It makes me blush so much, you know? I hope you're not repeating a lot of the things I'm saying. No, Winter, you have to get the tone, too. The tone is important.

Just quickly, Winter, sorry to interrupt. Quickly, Winter, on your comment about how you feel a little shy to express yourself in English. Winter, I can promise you that native English speakers don't care at all if you make a mistake with your grammar, your vocabulary. Nobody cares. Just be yourself and be confident. And nobody's judging you. I promise you on that. And it's really heartwarming to hear this message from this person

This winter listener. I mean, if you are a frequent listener to a certain show or a certain channel, it can indeed really have a huge influence on you. Somehow this message from winter reminds me of my experience.

days as a student, as a college student, especially the early years of my college, as somebody who came to Beijing from a small city, I turned on the radio in my dorm and I heard English language radio shows on air, which is us, CRI at the time, right? It was really an amazing experience because at the time, back in my hometown,

I had no access, no way to access English language radio shows. So somehow that amazement motivated me to study hard. And after I graduated, I was able to join what was then China Radio International and

somehow make my voice become part of the channel here. And it's really a great sense of pride and fulfillment. And that's really a personal experience I'd like to share in response. Very cool. Yeah. And this could be Motivational Monday content, you know, and it's just so great to, yeah, to hear that from you and what a journey, but, you know, so inspiring for others at the same time. Thank you, Ding Hong. Yeah. And, yeah,

We also have dipped into our mailbag, and here's an email from our listener, David Kwan.

Here's the email. Hi, Roundtable team. I've been daydreaming about our Roundtable discussions lately, envisioning them as cozy video chats where we're all sipping tea and chatting away. I'm curious to know if you've ever thought about transforming your sessions into such a warm and intimate video chat format. Well, thank you, David, for writing in.

And I think that's a brilliant idea. Can somebody please reimburse the costs of buying a new makeup set and also fancy clothes? I think she's talking to you, David. And also, nice.

Nice clothes. So I do no shame for the Roundtable show to have nice clothing to match the show standard. I know what you mean, David. I think it's a great idea as well. So if you're listening to the show and you agree with David, then get in touch with Roundtable and share your support for that idea. I really like it.

I have shows that I listen to as well through podcast, but they also do video formats too. And sometimes I like to watch the video format because I like to see the faces of the people that, that of the show that I enjoy. So yeah, I like your idea, David.

So video content is definitely more costly in terms of budget, manpower, and the preparation you need for the show. But that's true. So I guess it's not easy to transform our daily shows into video products. But I guess for some special occasions, for some special episodes, we're already doing that in terms of rolling out the content on multimedia platforms. And also...

In fact, in 2017 and 2018, we used to do live streams of this show, but due to limited budgets and stuff. Yeah. And also, I mean, our listeners, our viewers, you need to come and watch. If the numbers aren't fantastic, then it's like any business. You need to justify.

to your superiors or whatnot and get the support you need. But yeah, that's a really, that's a great email. And thank you for reaching out, David. And that brings us to the end of today's show. You guys have a beautiful day. We will see you next time.