CD144: CASHU WITH CALLE
02:32:07 Share

The Price might come in briefly hitting the ninety three thousand dollar level before pulling backs up more than one hundred and fifty percent this year. Let's talk about the crypto market and bring in, as you see, ahead of a digital assets research advances. I thought mad that IT was differently um long in the tooth, this sort of um mania. You say there's in at least for your work that you don't necessarily see that yet in terms of whether it's totally overdone.

So we think it's just getting started as we expected. Bitcoin saw this high volatility pump after the election. We're now in blue sky terrace, no technical resistance, and we think we're likely to make repeated all time hires over the next two quarters.

The same pattern played out four years ago between the election and the end of the year and twenty twenty bitcoin, there were about six ten percent corrections. So it's not going to be a straight line, but we're up thirty percent so far and a number of indicators that we track are still flashed and Green for this rally to you. This is a state change in terms of government support.

Look at this cabinet, the VP attorney general, director, defense, national security advisor, possibly even the secretary of treasury being prod coin uh, that's not including elon in the bec. Uh, so the number of calls that i'm getting in bound from investment advisers who are at zero and looking to get to one percent or at one percent and looking to get to three percent, these calls are starting to accelerate, and we think the flows are gone to follow. So our Price target for this cycle is one hundred eighty k.

We think we can reach that next year. That would be a thousand percent return from the bottom to the peak this cycle. That still the small as coin cycle, uh, by far.

double from here. Basically, you look at weird things, math you like. So you you google search, google search for bitcoin is one of the the thing. So you would expect if we were getting top, you would expect that, that was off the charts and it's not yet.

Google searches are nowhere near where they were four years ago. Uh, coin bases rank in the apple and android APP stores, nowhere near where IT was four years ago. Look at the internals of the derivative markets of what IT costs for funding to put on bitcoin futures trades.

You know, IT, it's up. But once we get into this, uh, Price discovery mode, IT tends to stay elevated for quite some time. What if games .

filer's gone, as trump said on day one, someone said on day one, I mean, I I could even that I don't know when know IT actually sell on the news because I don't know maybe just think that it's it's more of a manian move now than than IT actually is. But IT just seems like it's a think of a move think IT remove when get first gone .

if he's .

gone yeah I think maybe the disappointment phase will set in a one to two quarters after the inauguration. There's really four major impacts here. One is just the positive impact on dynamic when you stop suing people for breaking rules that have never been written down.

Uh, that's a long way of saying that regulation by enforcement is going to end. We're already seeing the economic impact of that. There are cyp to projects that are announcing that they're going to hold conferences in the us for the first time ever.

Open offices in the us in new york is just great for us. Jobs in GDP, right? We've got the big coin reserve that we would legitimize this asset as a reserve asset, pave the way for to be used as a global settlement as the brick countries have been doing.

Uh, you know, president trump recognizes the energies between big coin and A I. They are two sides of the same point. If you want to have cheap A I, uh, you're gna want to combine IT with bitcoin mining to take .

advantage of that.

H T.

tell me we ve got, I don't know, disney bitcoin of both important. Now we got we have got to get moving. We ve got the CFO, but we appreciate your time to date. mad. Thank you.

Happy bitcoin monday freak is your host. Oddly, here for another syddall dispatch, the interactive life show focus on an action bitcoin and freedom tech discussion. That intro was from the largest bitcoin podcast in the world, cnbc clock box.

Uh, they are interviewing some guy from vanek who thinks, uh, because it's gonna up higher um I think that was very typical for a discussion. Looks like I just lost cali, but i'll be back in a second. We have it's actually not topical at all for a discussion and but the bitcoin pum continues.

We are an open water bitcoin and IT seems like bitcoin is doing its thing melting faces um as IT tends to do every four years or so. We have Kelly joining us. He has been on the show in the past.

He is the prolific maintainer of cash you I see he just message me because he got disconnected. He's coming back. Um and I also seemed to have some technical difficulties with a live chat.

I what's going on to upstream right now, but we are alive. The chat you see on the screen is from last weeks episode. But this is why we still stream to youtube and twitch.

So there are some people joining us from those streams right now, and hopefully, i'll have this upstream up soon. IT says it's sending data, but this also not receiving IT, and we are waiting for calling while we're waiting. The show is supported by freak like you um who sends out to the show.

We have no edg sponsors. Um I think we're the longest running largest audience show that's not run by adam curry. That runs on a pure value for value method where you donate your harder in bitcoin, your scares bitcoin to support the show rather than relying on ads responsbility.

Um the two is just ways to do that is either through the live chat um which like I said is now working right now you can sap live um or through podcasting two point o apps like fountain podcasts and are two largest boots from last week's episode or from steamy yourself with bitcoin. He's sent twenty one thousand sats, said, holy shit, nobodies bullish enough and we had read with fourteen thousand, one hundred and forty one sites saying consensus is messy. This is a feature, not a bug.

I tend to agree with him. Those came through podcasting two point. Now while we're waiting for Kelly, i'm going to try and get this zp stream working Better. Of course, his internet completely failed them as soon as we went live. But that's .

the beautiful .

life show isn't IT. We just do IT alive and we don't really know what will happen in first. I know my audio last week wasn't ideal.

I was on kind of a city connection, but i'm starting to work on IT. So I think it's probably much Better now 呀。 Made some changes, but just know it's a priority.

It's obviously not intentional. I want you guys to have the best quality possible. Yeah, don't know why nosters not working right now.

Noster is working. To be clear, this is just zapp that will let me connect. Nice of you to join us.

Yeah, yeah.

Thanks for joining us. You had me. I had to. I had to hold them up there .

in the rainman.

Yeah, you left me just standing here.

right? So here's my ava. What's up? Freeze there.

Go the interruption. My my internet. I'm on starting right now. And starling is fucked and amazing. But I think.

Do we lose you again?

I think I lost you again, starting like this, working amazing. But sometimes I want to switched between satellite. You lose connection briefly.

I think I lost you. gun. Did you meet yourself this episode off to a great start?

I think .

I rescued.

Yeah, could be. I mean, let's see, let's just pray. Let's let's start going and see you how form the .

internet takes us. okay. Well, work worse comes to worse. If if we have to scrap this episode, will we schedule swiftly and I will find your future.

So we talk to about the clip that you just, uh, I don't know if you talked about already because I talked out.

did you enjoy the entry clip? I felt like I was very typical for conversation.

absolutely. First of all, I want to say, like all of these snakes sense men there, like when if you have watching this for a while, you will notice that you you know that they'll say the same thing every time. The only thing that has changed right now is the Price, not what they say.

So that's that's important to remember. Uh, you like what is that google search is not up coin base, uh APP ranking on APP stories and up. In fact, coin base is still up, uh still up as well as long as coin bus stand up, the ball market hasn't started. Um I find that very amusing, especially the guy when he compared disney stop to bit kind of the .

end yeah I mean， I I just I love how during ball markets seen B C just turns into a bit on podcast and usually it's not relevant to anything ah on the show. But I like IT as a kind of like a time step to look back. And you know little dispatch is going for about three years now and you get to find out what the largest big podcast in the world is talking about at that time ever said.

uh I also want to say, I mean Price going up is great for everyone, right? But uh except if you trust the E C V and it's it's bad for all for the entire population that does not in big kind. But aside from that, um Price going up is great for everyone.

But what I wonder in this Price release is how much of that is trading versus saving, right? I think saving bitcoin is what ultimately puts the bottom to to the Price. And as more people accumulate out the intention of ever selling, we're going to just raise the bar all the time. But for already like this and with all this you know magical indicators pointing towards like no particular activity with at least pleb, I wonder, uh you know well, some people get right because of its and people starting to buy in at ninety two day would probably melt some faces off in both directions.

They should just stay hub stacks.

That's about IT. Yeah, you just turn off your brain. You turn on the D.

C A. D, D, C, A. I had A R A aster note that was quite proud of, uh, you you should have stayed home and stack sets.

You still can, but you should have to. I think it's always a good time to to stay home access. Um so by the way, Kelly, while you were having your technical difficulties, I was having technical difficulties upstream, but I got IT on. So now we have the live chat, the live chat working.

We restart .

the child. I want to watch the five .

years I think hi i'll see as well did you I mean no see IT in the .

recording or whatever youtube and twitch got IT but the job stream litter just one life um but you guys didn't miss anything is upstream we appreciate you and you the writer die and i'm that you on um the enter clip was a mostly mostly joke but also hilas uh, cali, did you see what I named this episode?

What is IT? C, D, one forty four cash with .

colleague.

Yeah you I mean, I love fucking cashes. Yes.

I ve last trip I did with Kelly.

Everyone .

should go, everyone you should go listen to IT. But the he he was kind of pissed off for me afterwards was because I I kept writing e cash everywhere and I didn't say cash you by name .

yeah because you're a fatty investor.

That's why did there's enough conspiracies out there. You don't have to feed the fire. We can IT does IT has nothing to do with that. Uh.

you're proving that you're inviting me more often than defeated that.

So 哪一个？ But yeah, so I I made that up to you. I did a super simple name that is literally just three words. One is, one is your name. And what is the name of your projects are?

Yes, I think we could have dropped the middle world there as well.

cash. Well, next time I, I would like you to always be a repeat guest. It's always some of the most fun riband, especially the conversations we have offline are always a lot of fun.

The lost podcast episodes that no one else gets to listen to um so what do you want to talk about? The project has come a long way um since we had last spoke. I think I have no idea when we spoke last. Do you know when we spoke last?

Uh, no idea there was sometime this year. But things are changing like things are happening so fast that it's hard to a keep track. So cash itself is two years old. And and when I say that, I mean, like the first initial release of the software that I did where I didn't even have this whole plan of making uh, protocol out of IT where others can join and participate. So I would maybe cut off like, uh, six months from that in the beginning because I was just like one do doing something.

And when IT became a protocol with that, I mean, becoming a protocol means in my definition, writing this back and then having independent implementations at hearing to the speak instead of just a tearing to one guys uh code base um that's where things started to take off. And at this point, like I am literally losing uh the overview myself, which is a beautiful, beautiful feeling to have just to see that this thing is going on. Lots of projects people working on, often I hear about them when they post on on a monster on twitter.

So there's a lot of stuff happening without me being aware of IT. And when I find these projects then is just the best feeling ever. Um I I think like my before next year my goal will be to to get to a stage where I can comfortably or confidently say that uh if if if I write or die if I choose the branch of dying set of riding so uh like a boss accident or something that the project will continue that will be like that be my primary objects.

please not die um we still need there's .

no more there's .

still more work to be done. I was like to say that I mean open sets like our goal and open sets, uh is to to Operate at a scale, Operate a scale that that no other charity does period. Um right now we're paying out nearly two hundred grantees, I think actually may be a little bit more than two hundred grantees and forty plus countries.

But there something we said that there is like there is a few people. There are a few open source contributors out there that are just like a step above um that if we could if if we could somehow enable like ten kallie in the world to come into big corn and start working on freedom tech in in a real way like you've done. I mean I think the we change everything like I think then we have massive success. So um please don't only leave us a we still need you, but I do appreciate the massive progress you've made from like d risking yourself from the project so I just looked IT up, uh, we last spoke march twenty twenty four but I think winds up I think on that show I said I would be nice to do IT every six months. So I think just convinced that way we .

actually did line .

IT up perfectly. And you did mention that ten thirty one my venture fund is a small investor in fatty um which is a four profit business that is built on top of the federation protocol, which is another e cash protocol. There's two dominant e cash protocols and big by way, looked up the last episode.

A I called the bitcoin charme bitcoin. What did I call? I called IT biton powered charm e cash with kali m the and so so fadi is built on the federal open source protocol.

And then you have the cash protocol that has many wallets that are built on top of IT. Um and just seen the organic growth in cash o versus element has been something to watch. I mean, we've seen it's it's it's something that is very rare, right?

I I think both of us have been in the space in the adjacent spaces for for a long time now. And it's not something that you can like create out of the air or try and replicate through like force. It's something that kinds just happens virtually in organically when like an idea has its time. And it's been fascinating to watch yeah I .

want to a refine all all those topics that you just mentioned. I think they are super important like we should get back to open sets and develops and how to get them as well. But I want to mention at this point like um obviously, I always wanted to to get to a point where this but the cash we're trying to build the simply e cash system possible, like we're trying to start with the minimum basics, what you need in order to have any cash political and in the first place and then trying to make that more and more complex and building more features on top of that, that are optional that people can use if they needed.

But this approach basically was well intentioned like there was always this this model that i've observed from uh, especially Allen l and we had this alen mafia back in the days where yet this whole group of people just implementing this very stupid, simple fear, jeff invented alan, your else, as H. D. B.

Base, super simple wealth receiving lightning payments. And I saw how to spread, and I was so beautiful to because IT just spread like wild's fire and at the same time, you know um you have other protocols that do similar things, but they're pushed from by different entities. Sometimes it's a company. Sometimes it's like a set of o gees that are very, very pushy about the tech whether you have this punk, stupid, uh simple technology like l an l that is unstoppable, which eventually forced everyone to adopt along your right and nowadays we have these battles between bold twelve forces and your all and I think, I mean, I love both twelve um but you see that you have this now new technology, both twelve that is trying to shave off some of the success from an your l and uh it's trying to heart and I think it's like opening up a like antagonisms where they are not really needed.

So in my in my view, technology spreads uh in a way very unpredictably but what seems to be often the case is that if the tech can speak for itself and those who uh defended and represented, don't try to heart and remain like fact base and just show you how easy IT is to use IT, show you how easy to build IT. That's what makes people the relevant people to actually consider IT and think about attack right at the end of the day. Also, I am I I love having a disk discussion with you and conversation with you, but also do one of the reasons uh why I go to podcast and talk about cash o is I want to inflict uh um like fantasies in heads of people, in the brains of people who are working with tech.

And I think like by talking about what what we already do today, uh, IT will just change your way of looking at your text tag and what you work on and maybe you'll find, uh, no one or two reasons why you might, anna, look into IT and that's the best way the tech can. Spirit is just purely your own reason, your own benefit and um you discovered IT and then you are employed. And I think that's that's how we've been spreading.

So we have no propaganda uh ministry. We have no funding for media. We have no like marketing department. We just shit poles. And we built and it's been working Better than anything else that you can do. So um i'm very happy about that but I also want to go back get back to like this. Thank you for the compliments.

First of all, I need to say thank you for that and also partially reject them because I don't want to be idealized and things like i'm just a Normal fucking player and i'm just building and i'm here to stay super convicted um I think bitt coin is one of the most interesting and most important things to work on on a human life service level. Uh i'm like all in with bitcoin and uh I know like if I choose something I am a person that just stays around and rides or dice um but I think about attracting like these are capable deaths that each individually have insane potential to change bitcoin, to improve bitcoin. I think about how to attract them other time.

It's one of the things that is constant Young. My mind is how can we build A, A, A environment and culture in bitcoin and how can we reach those people? H, that might have this incredible impact on how big coin works today.

And you know it's a complicated topic because bitcoin itself is a very equation, very close minded community， which I know that some people live about. This is defense immune system for big corn. So I think that's kind of most anti social behavior is yeah I think grown grown men often explaining to themselves why they can be mean and bullying people and sound like I I I think it's doesn't really help anyone uh that that's my.

Small this there so I hope no this offended but um so I think of people now I wana I want to mention two people that aren't not like super consensus that we uh uh that not everyone and consensus state their amazing engineers. But um I want to mention Robin linus, the guy who invented the vm and casey or more, the guy invented uh ordinary and you know think what you will about these two inventions and especially the ordinary stuff is very you know many people are critical about IT. I fucking you know, don't care about N F T like it's very, very important to me personally but what I see is these two very special people.

For some reason they have taken a different approach and some of their approaches even shit tiny like and if staff is very should colony and uh Robin linus himself, he learned all his Z K magic stuff in shade coin land like he came from the developer ecosystem from material words like Y F Z K proves and um and both of them with B M and uh I think zero sink is the other project by Robin. And then obviously the whole ordinal spill, both of these projects had had an insane impact on bitcoin, whether you like IT or not. Those are immense that in in the history books of bitcoin, we mention those two names.

And so that's a very long way of saying, like how do we attract those people? I really believe that individuals, some are so capable that just one or two of them can change the course of decline. So the biggest question, the most important question in my mind, is someone who is always dealing with developers, just whose life is being a developer.

I wonder, how do we attract those people? And I really don't know. Like sometimes I have the urge to go to fucking animal, massed on or blue guy, or just break out of the ecology to talk to people that are order, but who can be reached from within our ecology.

So yeah, I wonder how to do that. And I want to expand the circle cle of bitcoin. I want to reach more people and then and then and attract those people into our coat.

yeah. I mean, that's always the question, right? I mean, I we heard a lot in terms of my. My noster stance um it's a common refrain that I hear is is is oh well, if you if you're only using noster like you're missing a bunch of people um and usually it's it's used in terms of that's why someone supposed to x right. But there is probably argument there's probably a valid argument that that.

There's there's more Green field people that have never been exposed to bitcoin and associated freedom tech on like a tiktok or which has way more users than x or maybe even a blue sky, which is kind of a weird little echo chAmber they're building over there. Um I couldn't be any more different than noster um but also like I kind of come to the conclusion that I don't know, Kelly, like I feel like like how did you how did you discover bitcoin? Like I feel like the I hate the term because IT just sounds like i'm wearing my B C hat.

But like the tennis engineers, like the people that really move the needle in a big way, the rider dies, they tend to kind of do the proof work and find IT like I found bitcoin in in an environment that, you know, no one was talking about our ex. You know, I I just I I, I found that I was looking, I was looking for hope, and I found something that provided that hope. And then I just never .

stopped yeah for me. So the the reason I joined x was forbidden in uh I I don't like social media that much by itself so I kind of entered the bitcoin uh or let's say the the public square wearing my bitcoin hat and to this day I limit myself purely to a bit content because um there's too much bullshit going on around that. I want to be I want to focus the way I found bitcoin.

I don't talk about this uh often but it's and I think a good story uh actually because like i've been developing for all my life, I ve had like various professional experiences on all sorts of crazy hard shit and achieve like the things in different domains. Um but um I was building privacy software and IT wasn't bitcoin related. And I can I actually this interesting uh example, I was building a port scanner.

Port scanner a standard, a no super security tool that checks whether points on a different computer are open or not is very, very basic. And um I was looking for one does IT for a tour for tour services, system services, we can just enter a tour on and checks for the parts and this didn't exist. Uh so I I just built IT and when I put IT up, I notice that IT uses kind of uh you know resources, cost money to host this thing and didn't have much money.

So I wanted to put a donation button there and well, obviously to use bitcoin because of what else could you uh use like anonymous service with and because of that fucking payment button, I fell into the developer rb ital. Now as I fell deeper and deeper, I just like, this is completed the actual project that I was working on and and had to fix that payment button and, uh, that's how I became a lightning developed the end of today, uh, just following that that rabid hole for months and years and becoming an, as I was falling internet hold do. And I think that's important for me.

Personalize back to what I said before. I noticed that the levy hole is way deeper than I thought are not on, you know, just thinking about bit caring and economic, social, economic level. All that stuff is also interesting, but is not something that would have kept me inside the rbi. Al, like I would have just gone, uh, not gone to the next thing.

But um what I noticed in bitcoin is that the technical rebel toll is super deep and we have amazing people in biton that are through theodore ans like hard courtier bongs doing, uh a lot of work and you something sit in a room with people who talk about this tag and you you get you understand and you notice that there is so much to learn about this if you want to really learn and so for for curious person, this is often like a trigger to okay and that this dive and figured IT out and nowaday, you know, i'm trying to i'm trying to help others also follow the White rabbit and no, wake up new. There is so much you can do with your life that isn't the corporate Normal developer life, that most people, most of my friends, are work in development, actually hate what they are doing. And this is like a standard default way of living.

We have all accepted this 是谁 a result of modern society， I guess. But especially for developers will look at open source and many of them says, like, oh yeah and you know, one day i'll take some time and do what's good instead of what's necessary and go, you know, become an open source developer and contribute to something that feels like a larger project in my own little for fucking in project and yeah trying trying to help people to to make the move and bitcoin is the first open source project, a humanity project, a project on the level of, you know what humanity has. Uh, you know, the one of the most best and most important thing that humanity is created so far.

And h is the first thing that also allows you as developers to actually survive on IT. Because the corn has this ability to finance itself from the inside. IT doesn't rely on support from external institutions or external entities.

We have, thankfully, we have orgies who have bought bit corn very, very early. And at the end of the day, that's what what's coming back to developers these days. And I mean, we we are living in a much, much Better situation than when I started developing.

There was no open sides like there was brink and they were like sponsoring five people and all core death. I knew we're complaining about having to work two jobs so they can do core development at night. And now thankfully, that is changing.

And most of the work there has been done by open sets and the f and spring and spiral. And this is so exceptional, this is so amazing that we have this environment. And I think now, now we need to attract the people, we need to grow. We need to ten x, the number of ten x test time.

right? I could just let you speak for the whole episode. Fuck was like.

I want to look there.

You're an inspiration now you're going keep going I ah and on top of that, I mean, one thing that I was. That that I was quite excited about. This is just the other day um we had U T X O who's doing a lot of work on on noster in terms of trying to create smarter release and giving people more options in terms of how they interacted the master network.

He's like straight up just asked for a call for donations on master and he was able to get funded in a significant way um and over a million sats. Right now, as you know, nine hundred and twenty U S. Dollars um I think I think was I was I was like over fifteen hundred dollars worth of sats just like flooded into his lighting wallet.

Um just asking for a call for donations which to me is the ultimate like I think like organizations like open sites and nature of play an important role um especially right now. But I I mean we try our best to Operate more ethically, more efficiently, more transparently than any other charity in the world. But ultimately we are a middleman, right? And when you have freed of money, the ability to support debs directly, particularly in a social environment, I think the social signals is key there.

I mean you you can clearly watch as these apps were coming in that people were trying to top the previous people ah that donated everyone wanted to be the top dog. Um I I think that's a really bullishly fundamental and I should be interesting to watch that player. And I mean two year previous topic points you mentioned up there like that was possible because of open protocols like L N ural and noster that were not that were very organic and viral and how they were adopted and when put together, they they become incredibly powerful. Um I want to bring you back. We have a lot of things to talk about.

I if if you're not familiar of the cash o project, um definitely go back to that march episode we did together because we went through like all one or one and um stuff like that and and I think me in keller are gonna a little but deeper on this conversation because partisan bull markets I crave uh h the more deep conversations and instead of the superficial bullshit that gets you repost on x um you mentioned Allen your real you know Allen your real is one of those things that is super simple and there is relatively easy to implement. But I do have some concerns going forward that IT will be used as kind of like a compliance nightmare tool. Um I don't know if you've thought about at all, but you know light Spark, which is funded by eight sixteen z one of the big bad venture firms from tax surveyors to strobik, that ten thirty ones trying to obsolete, gave them one hundred and sixty five million dollars and they went and they launched uh the universal money address, which is effectively l in ural of compliance building, partially because alan neural is so simple to implement and is effectively just a data exchange layer on top of lightning .

and voices and the right. So ua, stuff that works just with any lightning .

address as well. Yeah, for now, I think what's onna happen is I think they're gonna like you. You can choose to add the complaints later or not. And then at some point, you know, they're like doing partnerships with all these big companies. At some point, they are going to be like if you're paying A L N ur al recipient that isn't what compliant and isn't sharing K Y C information, then we're not going to support IT. And at that point, if they have enough adoption, then IT kind of pushes while its that don't want to support IT into supporting IT just so that our users don't have this weird interface where like their payments are fAiling and they don't know what they're fAiling.

I I think this is like always the same thing. IT will happen and they can have fun with their complaints flags there and send around user data is just like there will be always a call of people and services that will not participate in that bullshit.

And uh, I mean, uh, I think similar to what we started talking about, right, you have now this massive company that came out of nowhere has no real, you know, they have some awesome people working for them, but the company itself just popped out of nowhere, got a bunch of money, has his facebook guy as a their front and you know this is perfect looking suit ah that looks like clone of himself. And he's raising millions of millions of dollars and integrating lightning into a large sales providers these day. I mean, there there there are successes is is impressive in that sense that there were similar companies around before that offered the same thing but couldn't achieve nearly what they achieved in terms of uh, who uses their their integration.

But for their Allen, you're health when they add like a layer of complaints into those payments. I think this is the path that everything will walk towards go towards on the internet. And um I don't think that we need to fight against IT because you cannot fight against IT.

There will always be the compliance, the compliant network that will have to appear to absurd rules uh that um for examples and your private information from one server to another because of travel able but uh the internet itself will just continue existing the same way that does right now. There will always be beautiful, say, no, I I don't, I I don't wanna play your game. I want to play our own games.

I want to make up our own protocols and just know, deny interaction with those services. I don't think that they have much of a pressure on to the ecosystem. You'll see some walls adopt their thing because often some wallets don't care about any no ideas of freedom or decentralizing. They're just they just wanna have the maximum amount amount of users, and that's fine as well.

Just you know I would avoid them because you know, many people 的， but there will always be a large enough number of people services on its h infrastructure that says, no, we're going to use the O G L in your l or even Better, we're going to use bull twelve blinded pts and we're going to crease the privacy of flightless, even if that means IT cannot interact with your a compliant subsystem anymore. I think these people can fork off if they want. And uh, that's completely fine. I think we have we have space and room for all of IT.

We interrupt this broadcast for a brief message for a sponsor, light Spark, bringing the future of lighting payments to a bank near you. um. They um just for some context here, the ten thirty one is by far the largest bitcoin focused venture firm and we've deployed one hundred and thirty million dollars um so a sixteen z that that across thirty six uh businesses a sixteenth gave that one hundred and sixty five million just to the single company.

Um just kind of show you you know money doesn't necessarily equate to success like you still need to execute but just to show like the still the massive capital uh differences between kind of the old worlds like tech surveilLance mindset and like the new world ideological bitcoin mindset, they're still a mass of mass of gap um in that and and what i've seen is that they have been i'm hearing that they they pay people for integrations. So they have all the others war chest and their their paying people for integrations. They got the coin base contract. I don't know the details of the coin base contract for for instance, they are doing coin base um so they could be in a situation where I hope it's done to told you so. Um but some things I say on the shower are to to be told you .

so told .

there there is you. The way I look at the coin right now, the way look at the coin right now, I think it's close to inevitable, if not inevitable, that you know bitcoin and gets adopted at scale. And I would even go as for our saying, you know IT becomes this reserve currency of the world um but what my biggest concern is, is what percentage of people are than using a as free of money.

And I think like our current trajectory is maybe five percent are using that as free of money in the ninety five percent of people are using IT in this like surveyed controlled way and at least they can get debased in that situation. They can get debased easily um but that's not really the movement I signed up for. So like my goal is and increase that percentage.

Like what is that percentage in twenty years that is using this thing as freedom money? And i'm kind of curious, like i'm in based on your answer, your answer does not necessary conflict with my diagnosis. There of five percent rider dies using in as free of money like jean network. Where is our trajectory Better than that? Am I being too pessimistic .

or I I think you are being true optimistic c in my um I think the number is less than five percent for short ah but that's that's fine. I think that you know not everyone lives in situations that are so bad that they need to save themselves. And that's good, right? But the world isn't as bleak.

E as some people make IT look like all this. See where we have big problems. And most people who owe bitcoin today might learn the true value of bitcoin only in in the worst case and we can just hope that the worst case never uh, happens, although the chances are there.

And as you said, like the things that you say on this podcast, uh, seem to turn out to be true at the end of today. So um I think the the number of people who is bitcoin for the uh for its freedom properties is is way less than five percent. And um somehow I think it's part of the equation of bitcoin itself because IT must be valuable to also the left bell curve left curve people.

They just wanna increase their fields stack. And you know that's the that's the reason why most people by bit coin these days is to increase some value that they computer in field a and they see the Price go up and they like the corn more than yesterday. And that makes a lot of sense.

And everyone's should and is free to to to do so. But those people who really need bitcoin because they cannot get a bank account all day, I don't know， they they want to a move countries because the authority, an regime is becoming unbearable and they need to take their property with them all. And just people who want to engage in free and open trades, being ordinary human beings on the internet, for example, they in need bit kind.

This is like I would consider myself, uh, often of the that category. For example, if you just you just wanted buy a server on the internet, uh, for a couple days, there is no other solution than to use bitcoin if you want to remain private. Obviously that was use Prices at concerts on but and as a general uh as a general statement there is that we need to use internet money for internet things.

And uh, that number, that number, I think people who who need that last part will will go up as more and more services and things that we do will be bought online and purchase online. And that number hopefully will go up. Uh, but I think those who really need bitcoin because of its freedom properties in terms of human rights and sense, super resistant that that is uh, a smaller number. And then then what you think IT .

is my thinking ah I mean, I think the only like we can derive all we want, but that the only plan forward is to just. Build out the tools, make the tools easier, build out the education, make the education easier. Um and then as people find a need um they will have that option available to them.

And that's really all we can ask for. And then going forward to sea, what that actually plays out as. But there's still I think I think my key premise is that they're still a lot of work left to be done. And why I still here and there is .

so much work to be done, I mean, all this is a useless if people don't hold their own keyser example, right? We all agree on that. And this is some some very simple and basic messages need to be uh communicated to to the larger popular relation that people who think who are own bitcoin don't own bitcoin if you don't told to keys because at the end of the day is just an investment like your so for for you or something like that that could be taken away from you.

Yeah I mean and I think that is mostly learn through pain, which is unfortunate um and we're going to a probably see like the next kind of version of that with the etf and with the lesser extent, stocks like microstrip.

Gy um really quick we have um the top three ies uppers in uh the live chat which you can get a sd the species es I stream is S P A is APP twenty one thousand sites map twenty ones APP ten thousand sites and penal moves is apt five thousand sites thinking for supporting the show. We have U T X O who we were talking about earlier um prolific noster dev um who's also been doubling in a big way in lightning. He says that we're two pessimistic fifty eight fifty percent age of big coin on chain is held by unknown individuals.

That freedom I think we're talking about two different things here. Um not I I think it's it's absolutely key that bitcoin was kind of boots dropped in this uh environment where most people weren't paying attention to IT. Um so we do have A A A strong foundation of sovereign individuals.

I'm a freedom loving folks, but you know I think me and callie or more talking about you know a number of people like actual like percentage of global population, not necessarily the amount of bitcoin. So it's kind of two different metrics. Um it's just something to watch Kelly I have and also U T X O like, I hope you're right. Like fucking great.

T to the right dies on the chat like i'm reading what you're writing and your family amazing that you here and i'm seeing all those names which we are with human interactive noster and am happy to see you guys this thing yeah.

this is a unique we got our our favorite blue check in the house and he's joining us in the naster live child. We got Kelly here. I I do want to talk a little bit lost himself. But before we get there, are so you actually because you have such a focus on privacy, you talk about manero a decent amount. I mean, I saw you posted me that I think was like the ninja turtles.

Yeah, such a such a cute .

me and and manero was named in there. I am curious from european an why do you focus? This is a question that you get a lot, I assume because I get a lot as well um why do you focus on bitcoin and not something that is you know privacy specific like a mineral .

yeah so um this time I don't own monera I don't share monera like I barely think about monera but um I from the ship coins out there it's the ship coin that I respect the most because monarch and consistent and monaro has never attracted their users with speculation but with privacy only and I respected a lot. I know that many people today rely on monera to do free trade on the internet, and this is something that bitcoin cannot give them today and does not give them today.

So I I just from by being humble uh I need to you know give proper uh respect to to monaro staying true to its ideas um but why do I focus only on bit kind that is a question like I I don't even know how to answer that the question everything else completely bulshed that's the answer to me. I don't know what to folk like most projects out there there simply that their siop s Operations that make you like believe in them due to cheap propaganda, grass roots faked, uh how to say astro turf, astro turf communities of non real people posting degenerate means about coins and uh and marketing material like this is literally what I perceive most projects in this space to be ah I don't want anything to do with that。 Uh, I focus on bitcoin because bitcoin was the first, and bitcoin has the best foundation in terms of the people that supported and the best foundation in terms of the centralization.

In my mind, there is no competition. All the rest is completely irrelevant for me and is just background noise. I know that bit corn will still be there in fifty years and I will be able to look back at my own life legacy and say I contributed to a project that actually matters.

Is like, uh, your city do of human achievement that were building on and I wouldn't to waste a day of my life building on on on sand and that's that's what every other project feels like. I find a kind of funny because I also look at uh, exterior a lot in terms of its technology. I think it's here um has amazing technology and very, very smart people but it's IT is definitely built on sand. So I wouldn't put my money into a theory at all. Uh, but I I considered as something it's like a it's like a library or like a mood board where you get inspiration from if here on is is a trove of uh smart and intelligent ideas built on the wrong system. So uh I like to learn about the theory um hard works interact with people who work on the theory um um but I wouldn't wanna spend a day of my life just building on its so my my focus rather is how do we get people who have fAllen for the scams mean especially the deaths uh whose who chosen to spend a lifetime on this uh to be fading projects and how do we get them uh to bit kind and make them contribute to bitcoin? That's that's that's the most important thing to me.

Well sad. Um I close on that message. Um so I think since we last spoke in march, um you release cash o on me which is A P W A. It's a it's a wallet you can use in the web to interact with cash.

What is what is the goal of that project? I mean, i've been using IT as one of my daily drivers in terms of a spending while for a while um and it's it's come a long way. It's one of my favorite wallet.

Now when I on boarding someone new and just want to send them you know a small amount of sets, what is your what is your goal there? And why should people um play around with that? yes.

So uh cash of me is A P W A. As you said, uh you should all who's listening, you know anyone who's listening, you can go to your uh mobile devices, native browser. So on IOS the fire and your android to by step will most likely be chrome.

And you can go to cash out up me. And in your mobile device, there is a share button, or in, on and right there is this hamburger button on the top, right. But on IOS is the share button bottom.

You press that button and you scroll to add to a home screen. And when you do that, what he does is create an icon of that of the page at you looking at on your home screen. And is now installed as A P W.

A, which is a progressive weather and progress. The web apps, those are, is kind of a browser based technology that makes a website look like an APP. But the nice thing about that is that you can distribute apps such as the water that I just know cash with me, uh, distributed without going through an APP store.

So for me as a developer is is the most straight forward way to uh to reach anyone who's using that wallet. And so this is a web wallet that use to casual protocol, is a very basic and simple one I ve built. And I must mention that i'm not front end developers.

So um it's kind of my uh most uh proud front gay base and that I ve built so far. Um but so um the idea there is that this is a website that runs in your in your browser is not something that is connected to a back end. So it's just the the website itself.

You just fetched ones from the server and then everything runs on your device and uh it's a full fledge casual wallet so uh generated on keys has sept phrase back up and so on and um as I said, just is the fastest way to get anyone to use bitcoin uh the custody lightning wallet uh because you just simply go to the website, there is no log in, there is no email, sign up nothing and um was also nice is that you can take casual of me and hosted on a different domain. So even if my domain would get rocked and get me goes away, anyone can just clone to get up, reposition and put IT onto you and uh and Sunny one day and you can transfer all your e cash from a one P W A to the other P W A. So definitely go check that out.

And working on a constantly working on features uh on that wallet because um you know I am deeply involved in the protocol design of casual with others uh who who do a lot of work as well. So it's much just me, but um i'm trying to implement most of the new stuff that we uh develop in terms of the protocol and trying to implement that right away into either nature, which is a back end and a like a mint implementation that I that I contribute to uh and to cash up me, which is I wanted quotation that I contribute to. So um try these two projects. Uh, i'm heavily involved with a they have usually totally up to date with suspects as far as as fast as I can because we actually to implement stuff in order to know whether it's a good idea or not.

awesome. Um yes. I mean the cool part about cash o is that IT is this open protocol uh that you can have many different front terms for and that IT is separate.

IT separates the front end from the custodian unlike traditional custodio lightning wallets, where independent of which front end you can use, you can choose different minds on the back end. Um first off, I have a question for you, what is and I mean, I know it's hard to pick a favorite child. What is your favorite cash wallet if you have to recommend one cash o wallet, what's your favorite right now?

I think the best cash wit out there is probably mini bits. So uh, unfortunately, I only exist for android. But if you are android user, then mini bits on the google play store is just amazing.

Its super stable and a in the best quality of a casual these days is still stability. Uh, there are still some jakinses and some volunteer. Fortunately, there are set phrase, so you don't have to be afraid. Even if the world does something wrong, the seat phrase will get your e cash back and with that seed phrase.

you can go into a different, you can go into a different APP .

and use that seat itself protocol fiction, how to use the seat phrase if you're an update per and the idea is that, uh, you know, you start to want to cash of me generate the seat race for you, you you put that see phrase somewhere safe and you can just keep using that wallet and you lose your phone. Now with e cash, one of the bigger issues with e cash is because he doesn't have an account. There is no uh, identification or anything.

So how do you get your money back if you lose your phone and for the first year and cash for literally mind if you lose your phone, the monkeys guns, just like cash in your uh wallet. If you lose the wallet like a physical wallet, uh money is gone. Um since then but I I know I had a hard time recommending IT to Normal people because I I realize how how stupid and dangerous that situation is.

But uh since then, we uh implemented seed phrase and pretty much everyone out there and they're all compatible. So as long as you keep that seat face safe and you remember, which means that you used because that information is not inside to see, press additional information. Um so seat face plus the list of means that you have as long as you can keep those things somewhere safe and those men remain online， you'll always be able to regenerate a the e cash that you have lost.

So I mean that brings me to the second question, which is IT seems like the biggest friction point right now with cash O I mean the the beauty of cash o and the reason why I like IT so much is that IT has very little friction to use. Big line is very cheap to use. Uh, the interfaces is is fantastic.

You can make offline payments and you have very strong privacy guarantees. So like the like the fault way of using cashier wallets is just a very positive user experience with the one exception being which meant does the user choose um when they they first set up a wallet? How do you think about making that process easier? And like, yeah how should users think about choose a nmt?

Yeah that's the that's the ultimate question, right? right? So um I mean, maybe you start with one step back. And what is said before is that where we're kind of separating the front end from the vacant in a way that, uh, that a protocol allows you to do. So what does that mean?

H, that means, let's say, you use one to suppose you, there are two parts of that soft, although use, the user only see one, you see only the front end, which is the application running on your phone. That's what draws the graphics and shows you the numbers. But there is also the back end that's on the server vote city. That was, there is a database and there is the actual bit cn, a lightning noted song, so typically you can only use one front for one backend. That means like there is one company or if you are running the back end, giving you one thing application and that's the way you use or to support.

Now what we want to do and uh, what we're trying to achieve is to create a world where a custodian um that might be a company, could be a cyberpunk front uh of yours or could be a service provider for a specific thing like a website or so they can use a vacant for their uh for their system, a clashing, but you can choose the front, tom, that you want to use this cash me with and that kind of d couples, uh these two, these two, areas。 So you can just be a custodian, for example, and you can focus on being a custodian, maybe also create like one APP to use your back and service. But you can you also immediately benefit from the existence of like ten different wallets out there that anyone can just download and connect to your package and and use, use, use your services, which is great.

So that gives people more freedom and choice is very important in terms of uh, security and privacy because the privacy guarantees that cashier gives you mathematical privacy, right? It's not like the custom and chooses to give your privacy. It's you cannot break blind signature that's like, uh, but you can only be confident in your privacy if you can actually audit the code.

But no almost no one can do that. So it's good to have a common clients that different people use because there are more eyes on the coat and no bad stuff would be detected. So um and to mention to to a to close off this um is a lot of mentioned kinosling in us is A A wallet provider that has existed before cash existed.

So i've not for a long time there. They are super based canada. They are building very sleek and a easy to use with lot uh conto. I O and uh, they recently moved all their communications from twitter to noster, by the way, they like monster only now and go all in to noster.

But what they also did, and this is something that I kind of always wanted to see, also predicted in the beginning, is that we will see existing source providers that already have a user base, uh, see that you know there is a new product, which is e cash and they can offer that today users, uh, which would be in their case, for example, of ultra system. So coin implemented, edit a catchment into their backend that already exists and added a casual client into their front, which they would also already exist. Uh, thousands and thousands of users are using IT already.

So uh, they edit casual in the back end and in front end. This allowed them to implement the feature for the users, which is like a gift card feature. So they have now this gift card button that is actually e cash.

So press a button, enter amount, and you can send this piece of data to another coin al user, and that way you can transfer the value and the coin al system. What they also did, though, and this is amazing, the super base of them, and how I hope that all this would play out, is they just run a kash mmd. And it's a kashmir that anyone can use.

So you can use kinds without using their application, but just downings, uh, a casual wallet. You can go to cash at me, use that wallet and use coin us as the back and mint. And maybe hopefully one day we'll even make a some profit of that or be able to offset the cost of providing that service through fees and so on. But the the connection between you as a user and the company running the mint, uh, can really be kind of the couple from each other and you can choose which software that do you want to use. So um is very similar to to our to our approach to noster, for example, where we just want don't want to silo in the user into a specific vision of what an ability look like.

Yeah, the coin OS guys are fighting awesome. I did. I had them on still dispatch episode one fourteen uh everyone should go back and listen to if they if they haven't yet. That was in november twenty twenty three. So that was pre cash prem pro ster integration.

Um but they've been building out just tools for big corners for a long time um and are very a they are they're very focused on on trying to to to maintain that freedom ethos. But you didn't really answer my question. How does a how does a new user, how should they think about selecting their minds and how do we make that easier for them? O because like right now, like they basic just blindly ask me which meant to choose, and I blindly tell them that meant you told me to choose. So that's kind of what i'm Operating under right now.

So first of all, I can recommend any to anyone and I think you understand that. But um the way I would go about this uh as a like I really want to stress that using a mint is a risk. You put your money into a service provider and the service provider could spend h so don't ever put a lot of money into a mint and use only for pocket money, very small amounts, things that you would, you know use to buy an apple or a newspaper or make a APP or something.

Yes, it's cash in your back pocket. I mean, I know the kids these days don't know what that's like, but it's the cash up in your back pocket when you got into the city .

to so given that the risk becomes kind of manageable for anyone, but still you shouldn't use just a random means that you don't know about. You should really pick your mint depending on who you choose to trust. And I cannot answer that question for anyone.

I like there are we've mentioned a couple of so services already in this episode, so you know that they exist. And in the case, if it's a company, then you can even reach them, but you should be very congressman about what you use and what to choose. And we're trying to build these uh, tools that help you to make that decision more easier, more easily.

But uh, there is no ultimate answer to that. That's the Price of a crypto anarchic system is that you need to do the research. Obviously, when we are at that point where my grandma can use this because its just integrated into her a digital experience, then that choice will have been made for her already or SHE will just know use the bank that she's already using or trust the shop that she's already trusting.

But we're not there yet. We're still in this an arctic phase of a you know bottom up cashman springing up run by individuals. That most of them i've never heard of, and I I don't know. I can recommend them, but I must admit, like I still use them.

I put a couple thousand sites here in a couple thousand sites there because I enjoy the the ability to choose and I enjoy the privacy IT gives me to spread out my sites and not to talk to a single service all the time and on. So, uh, that said, but what are we doing to make that choice easier? So h even though we want to avoid people to use random that they have never heard of that also the reason why there is no default meant in cash of me because I don't want people to make a default choice.

They they should rather turn off that wallet and not use IT then to make uh to follow my ill advice so um but we're trying to make life easier. So first of all, there is a nip there is a most protocol improvement proposal that uh I think it's NIPS eighty seven. I always get this one wrong, but this one allows you to recommend means on monster.

So there is already, although what you know has widespread adoption yet, but I think that we're on a good, good track there is that you can you can see which means your friends have uh recommended which ones they are using. And I think that's a very good juristic c like that's probably what I would go with if, uh, I would be you thrown into this, uh, echo system without knowing a what was good or bad. I would just ask my friends and if you don't want to ask your friends directly, you just produce this nip P A seven, uh, which gives you a list of recommendations of your friends.

And you can try this, uh, right now, if you want, you can just go to bit on mining stot com. This is run by someone else. But I just aggregates data post publicly on noster of people uh either announcing that the user or also writing a man and giving a comment which is great nosis amazing for that because um well it's unsensible speech and unsensible yelp in a sense so IT helps you to get these recommendations but also because the civil resistance of noster is basically doesn't exist.

So anyone can just spin up an identity, uh, as many as they want. So it's easy to fake reviews as well. So what you want to rely on is, is your web we say, is what what your friends say and what the friends of your friends say maybe and that's that's already usually is big enough that that circle of people is big enough to find someone saying something interesting.

So, uh, you can do that. I think that's a very good approach and nothing that uh I uh working on these days is this auditor idea. So, uh, I have this this meant auditor, that is, you can find IT on order to or eight, three, three, three dots space.

This is like a uh, experimental project of mine, basically a website that a has, a has has a casual village with thirty different minds or so you can donate e cash from any minute to IT. And IT will add to the list of means, uh, in that in that interface. But I will constantly check the ments for their health, basically for their up time and whether they likely known still works.

So this is one way at least to have kind of a chenery that can um tell us that a test, for example, gone down and the lime note has stop working and you cannot get money out of that meant anymore so that obviously and that you should avoid and you should not recommend and other means that happen running for month and years and there have been like this, this monitor has made thousands of payments with that meant without any um ever having an issue there. That's a sign for a good meant that is well maintained and the Operator is running IT. And uh, I think there is a good chance that you won't drug.

You are on the next day. Obviously, on the long term, you don't know and other things should make you consider what they want trust meant on a long term. But as I said, just we are still at a point where you should remain vigilant. You should only put law amounts into a cashman, and you should know why you are doing IT like you should only do IT because you want to use bit corn and not because you want to store bit corn or uh, receive bit on and keep IT there for a long time ah as long as you keep these simple rules in mind, which there is no other way, i'm sorry you need to learn these rules because that's the Price of making your own choices. I think you're good.

I think we will come to a point like the number you will not have to won't have to think about these things because, you know, I don't know, maybe cash up with runny or maybe a cracker or runny and that will be like a household name that lots of people trust. And then you'll just use that man and you'll get rock when the company gets rocked. But the translate that happening is a substantially smaller than using uh uh like a random crib and that behind them onion address and you don't even know who's running that right? That also has its own appeal but obviously more interesting.

Yeah I mean, I think in classic Kelly fashion, you gave us a very nuanced indebt answer. So thank you for that.

This time did I answer answer meeting?

I think the nto recommendation stuff is particularly uh, interesting and I think it's important to realize to that. You know if you don't have we say web of trust lot um but at the end of the day, weber trust is like this idea of just verifiable reputation um and if you don't have, I can established network on noster um one of the cool aspects of IT is that you can just like borrow someone else is that you trust so you can use you know calli's pumpkin or my pumpkin and then you're basically seeing recommendations from people that we follow on master um and IT kind of access is a nice open bootstrapping mechanism in terms of verifiable reputation. I think that's a key aspect here. You mentioned a you know like A W soren that run behind tour addresses。 There's also something isn't there arn guys working on something in terms of using like the master noster as the discovery mechanism um so that connectives using noster yes.

So the discovery mechanism would be the snip eighty seven thing, right? How do you find them in? And you can do that without interacting with the army internet.

Basically, you can just do IT pure noster only you can do that, the action and cash of me and the, you can when you open the water, you go to the minds tap, you score all the way down and says this governments. And when you press that button, like there's a spinner that absorb as governments, and it's doing exactly what I describe before. IT looks so noster for view reviews and stuff so you can use that to find ament again.

The timer you are responsible. Uh, yourself was happening there. Yeah come to a point. Do you know i'm taking that? okay? Yeah, you know so it's like this, uh, we call this most of web services and IT was made by one of the death working on cash a specific stuff because well, the the the idea of sending data around on the directly is not a very new or uh great of idea. Lots of people we've thought about this, but the trench with sending data over noster is uh mostly efficiency and traffic.

So like um so if you can do IT, but you shouldn't stream a youtube video over noster or just download time out of data. But if you interact with the and with an e clashing, the the interactions with the man are pretty minimal. So years, just sending small amount of data back.

And first to, you know, meter, token and h in validate to token or create a lighting invoice and admit the eats from the lighting invoice. All of those messages are text messages. Basically, you can imagine like a budget text being sent back and forth between a wallet and and its relatively small. So uh uh this already exists in serving up, by the way so this is a uh work in progress, uh mobile wallets that hopefully uh will also be able to recommend to IOS users soon.

The couple of IOS uh native IOS apps being built right now, uh uh the foreign up at uh is done by an amazing difficile David casual casual is working on a mint implementation um chambly and uh a wallet implementation which is the service now and the false way that this uh mint implementation and the up works is that the wallets talks to remain not over Normal internet T C P I P connections to a web server but through the most network。 So what you do is you add amid as a public key essentially and he calls this uh class I think uh he uses like a similar tribes uh but the idea is like that you as a you know you you as a friend, you as a cyp park husband or wife, you can run a mint for your uh family or your friends or your community. And this meant will never be announced on the Normal internet.

IT will only live inside monster. And what what that means is the only way to reach that meant is to send messages, videos, liping. And if that has a number of a really cool advantages, first of all, you can run them in anywhere.

Uh, that means like it's for slightly more technique of folks. Everyone knows that if you wants to run a server, you need to make sure that the I P is reachable, the ports are open, the file was configured correctly, and blow all that stuff. When you have a mt.

That runs on N, W, S as a most of web service, uh, you can be reached by anyone because there is this master rea in between basically helping anyone to connect anyone to anything. That's also why most uh, well let connect work so great. For example, you can just press about when your computer and your phone will make a lightning payment.

And the reason why this works is there is monster in the middle mediating these messages between those devices. And so we have something similar for for arbiters H T P, uh, H P S I should take for arbitrary C P data. So you can literally pretend as if you are Normal T C P socket on one side and on the other side.

And what happens in the background is that these TCP package, they are uh either cent directly biona stock that's one way of doing IT or uh, there is a direct picture p connection establish between the center and the receiver to communication to lost. But you know all of these ways essentially use noster to connect the client to server. So as I said, one benefit is you can run any service.

This doesn't not have to be a kashmir, can be any web service, can be any web sober, uh, IT can be reached by anyone. And the second nice thing about this is that you have uh, relatively good privacy for a cheap Price, which is like your high your I P address from your users. So if you write in your own home internet, which uh is a questionable decision but might make sense for some people, uh, if you do that, you can isolate your I P address from users of huge by just you know having a noster relay in between office skating.

The direct connection of this you you're doxy yourself to the to the real Operator but uh you know that still a lot Better than announced in your I P address to the entire world and letting everyone connect to you directly into your home network. So there is uh, there is already stuff happening there. I think we will probably see more of that.

Uh, we try to keep the protocol as agnostic as possible from, you know assuming what transport medium is used so that we can do h things like that, have experiments like that. And uh the the one thing that we've done so far is to just use master for the entire communication between wallet admit. But they have there have been people who use uh lara ritin lam like mission networks instead of uh the internet to connect the wallet to remain uh to demonstrate how you can use a casual if when in a positive connected scene where there is no internet anymore, for example.

So uh anything that can transport text can be used to exchange， uh, e cash that was so cool about e cash because at the end of the day, you know your communication with the man is just a about to text, but also the communication between wallets like I want to pay you in cash. Uh, I just send your piece of text and anything that can Carry this piece of text can be useful as a from transmission medium, be lost, be IT. Uh maybe one day, uh, apple will allow us to use its N F C, uh, or whether putters or mentioned for and so software .

yeah I mean this is fascinating to me because I do think um the success of cash heavily does rely on reducing the friction of of running mens um and this seems like a very elegant way to further reduce that friction. I mean I think that's also one of the reasons why we've seen cash you um kind of organically grow, particularly in the mindset much, much faster than fedex words. There's a lot more friction and technical requirements to run a high uptime fetish server.

There are couple comments on that. Uh, I want to say so there is is a is a baLance that were actually trying to strike there and it's it's a delicate baLance between making IT easy torry's ament and making IT too easy to ornament and you know, with the danger of sounding like a dick. But not everyone should run a mean. Some people are just too stupid to run a safety and not capable of. That's what I should have said.

So it's some sometimes you have a situation where someone is like, fucking let's run up in and you like, I don't know when you you don't know the linux terminal and like what do you do if something goes wrong? And like there, there is a baLance between because it's it's a it's a lot of responsibility to run a point and everyone should who does that should know IT, because people will expect you to keep that mint up for a extent, period time. And if you close them, you'll have to like reach those people who put bit kind to him to take IT out again.

So like it's not like I spin up a noster relay and I turned IT down again the moment I lose interest. So anyone running a mention, notice and uh, that's why we had multiple situations where we could have had like do you want a one click mint on umbrella? And we could have done that like a europe ready.

And we already had to basically all set up and docker containers and so on. But we decided against doing that, uh, because IT allows too many people to run distinct too fast without really properly thinking about whether they want to keep IT up or not. Like I don't anna say like, uh, and everyone is smart and capable enough to figure these things out obviously like if you feel like you should do IT, you should definitely try IT and do IT.

But making IT a choice way don't even have to think about the implications of running a means that's like where IT becomes irresponsible as as a death at some point. And um so we're trying to strike the baLance between right now at least you have to pass the test. You need to be able to in in order to install the kashmir, you need to able be be able to use a link terminal.

And I think that that's that's the filter, right? If you cannot get past that, you should not run up. And probably and if you can get past that, and it's very easy to do so to set up a likely note.

And even if you don't have a likely, you can even use a custom, you're back. And and for some people, that just makes the super easy and fast to spend up on. And second point I want to add is we've ve talked only about like the general means whose purpose is to store bitcoin amounts for their users so they can they can make like everyday spending.

But there is like the other way of running amid is to think of our service provider that does only one thing and that also provide a dozens is not a world provider or not a custodian or something, but it's just part of a like a back and infrastructure. I want to make a 那个 example to make that more specific。 But uh, I want to say first is that running that back and info when you want to change that is integrated into your into your your own back end.

Well, uh, that's super, super simple. Like we made cash so simple and we thinking a lot about these people who just want to. Run, uh kind of web service maybe and want to have some kind of money component in in that application that they are running.

So h one example I want to make is the i'm currently talking to people they are working on like a it's a charity platform that runs on bitcoin and they're already like super successful and doing amazing work like I follow my most favorite ject and basically just collect collecting donations and forwarding them to A N G S. And saw. So uh, what they want to do is they want to move this thing on monster and an experiment on monster that they want to give the, uh N G O or organization they want to support.

They they want to give them an insect or say, like give me and pop basically and will add you to the service and you'll be able to receive big condonation just with your and pop or and sick. And for one way they can achieve that is by using casual and they'll be using that this uh nip sixty a nip sixty invention by public uh where essentially uh all you need is an insect and that's that's everything you need to, to keep your e cash secure with a loss relay. And uh so this project, they want to build a donation site.

H for these projects and IT works the loser and IT works at e cash and everything is super cool. But uh, in decades, you know, they they just wanna use a kashmir as part of their their infrastructure. They are not interested in running up pollution.

Being accused him for ranking people out there. So i'm thinking a lot about these two cases as well. These two cases are very important. Sometimes I think maybe even more important than creating wallet services because um the internet is just completely permeated with uh, accounts and baLances and you know uh try to reflex account by ten box here and then usage here and this is everywhere and uh we want to make IT as easy as possible for resources to transition from Normal letter based accounting systems to Better privacy, increased for more user controlled way of offering the same service with e cash.

Yeah I mean just a little side note on that. Um I use a silent darlink as my my daily driver a in eason that I pay for with big coin um on my phone and technically registers as I guess it's like A H I P address or polish ism. And I tried to I currently do not have a netflix account because IT flagged something and like my credit card payments will go through and then netflix's refunds my credit card payments and refuses to give me an account. Um so that's something my wife has had to deal with recently.

I would have told you two years of D P M, but I think that doesn't make IT much Better with meta lix.

Yeah I there's been different mechanism. Sometimes I played them and polish a lot skies. Sometimes I pay them in hours like it's A H, it's a whole kind of mess and I just didn't give a shit enough. Try get them to take my money. I like it's a hilarious. I can i'll pay them, i'll get like five days of usage or something and then they fun my payment um and they're like now your scan even though I sent the money, but I think I H E A and big in and everything were working on here can fix the internet and big way as a result of that. To go back to the previous comment, yeah I I am not necessary referring to like everyone running amend but just directions directionally with the more mets the Better. Particularly being able to do so in a relatively private way without cloud services because I I think one of the edge cases here that we see is you know there's just like A A centralization among a few large ments that are run not effectively on on completely dox cloud services where the Operator is known um and that that could be bad further. The freedom focus adoption of so .

I I think there like in my mind, we have two avenues and we will and we should go both of them at the same time. And one is, you know the corporate meant the you know regulated entity, the company that's in a western jis diction and has a bunch of rules and safety and email and K Y C and all that stuff. And I think they should runners because it's Better for their users IT respects their users privacy.

And those will probably be really safe in terms of rock risk because you have this entity behind and everything is relative and you see but that so you'll have this clear that ment world if the technology proves itself useful in the highest levels of application and back and and all. But then the other branch, and that's the more exciting one, is the cypher's on grass roots trip to energies. They had run means because no one else does, and they run means because they have communities, they have friends they want to serve, they have conference as they want to run.

And and so I that second branch or venue is way more important, but I think is also a lot safer bet to bet on because there is need, people want to run services. The internet is a very big place and more and more people are joining us. So uh we want to make like IT as safe as possible for them to runny.

And that includes also uh you know hiding or respecting the midd Operator's privacy in general. Like all in my my development pho sophy is sometimes we have to choose between, you know especially designed to procol, whether we want to keep the mint more safe or the wallet more safe. Like there's like sometimes specific aspects of the protocol that is like you know when we choose this, then the mind has a harder time to remain safe.

And if we choose to this way and the what need to do more to be safe, but we always choose the main sites, like we always want to keep them in as safe as possible. Users can lose money due to accidents, and that's just one wallet. But if something that happens to the means, well, that's catastrophic, right? So always on the side of the mint Operator, always think from the perspective of the mint Operator, and always also give them the features and the things that they wish fall like everyday. I am happy about so much feedback that are getting from people who are just running the software and helping us to make IT Better, including also companies and regulated entities. We are also interested in running e cash infrastructure, uh, but they have very specific needs and very specific problems that like a random personal, the internet does not.

I mean, going back to our earlier conversation, they can use A U, M, A or ever to control who enters an exit.

no. H, I I want to mention maybe one of the features that i've been spending a lot of time with and that on my mind recently, uh which is blind authentication that uh it's a good example of um how we started building a feature based on feedback. So right now, basically when you're run a ment anyone can use them in is just the website like a website, right? The website.

Anyone can visit the websites. You don't have to log into a Normal websites to read the content and IT similar with the with the cash on and you just you spend up to change you connected to a lightning violent and then you're duck. There are no sign ups, no any person on the internet could be using them in, which is great, is grateful anonymity, because your annon set is almost like the entire internet.

And you if you take away the fact that your h sharing your peer dress, which you kind of point uh IT means that anyone could be using them in right now and that's that's amazing for privacy and uh makes also running a catchment super simple and uncomplicated because you have no sign up stuff. So um I when especially when talking to companies, some companies reached out like he were looking into equations. Very interesting, but there's a problem.

And uh also another a same thing was I mentioned to me by a bitcoin physical bitcoin project， something like you know you know biton jungle, bitcoin lake, bitcoin mountain and beach and all these different things like is a similar project to that. And they also want to want, uh e ashman for their community as wallets. And this guy told me like I would really want to run an engagement because I don't want to see the activity of my community like I need to run.

The infrastructure is clear, but I don't want to know what they are doing. And that's perfect for e cash. And it's also saffy everyone because there is no honeypot of data that could be stored. But the guy told me, now, this is the problem, that this entity's phase is I don't want an engagement for the entire roles like I want to be able to control who uses statement actually.

And I think it's a very good point, but it's also I mean, it's also problematic in the sense of privacy because you are making the number of potential users smaller, which is always bad for privacy. However, this feature request has been requested many times. If so, is necessary for cyber pump individuals who want to limit the use of their need to only their friends, but it's also necessary for many companies who want to run e cash infrastructure but make sure that only day use a base users, uh, there is their service.

And but as we said, is bad for privacy. So what we came up with and what I been working on in the last months intensely, is something called blind authentication. So essentially what uh the this teacher will allow you to do is to have something like a sign up page for your match.

Uh that sign up page must be run by yourself. So it's not part of the question in itself. And could be logging with anything like imagine logging with nsa.

And there's a server where you can log in with moston. Uh obviously, when you do that, you identify yourself. So that's bad for private.

You go to the server, you say, hey, I am bell. This is my signature. Um I want to use the mint now that's bad. The MIT now knows that you're using the mint, but that was the original idea like that's what we want achieve.

But how can we make still make sure that you can use the ch and do mint Operations without identifying yourself all the time while using the so what we've come up with is called blind authentication. And he works the way that you you first sign up to the mint and we all that clear authentically. You share your data, you you prove that your metal out, for example uh and then the middle aor says, like, yes, you're match, you are my friend, you can use them in.

And in exchange for that, you then means A A specific type of equal token, which we call like a blind authentication token. It's almost like e cash, but IT has no monetary value and IT has the same privacy as e cash. So and when you meet these auto blind authentication tokens, you can use them later to actually use them in and make payments with them in.

So what you do is you sign up with them in, you identify yourself. And the mint allows you, because of that allows you to mint these privacy preserving access tokens. And then you take these privacy preserving access tokens and then and you you actually use them in combination with, you know when when you want to make a payment with demand or when you create invoice with demand or pay lighting invoice demand.

So all the Operator of the mint knows is that you're one of the pas registered to use the end, but doesn't know which one of those people you are. So we're trying to strack the baLance between control of the midd Operator and trying to, uh, put them in a situation where they can be sure that only these people use my money, but at the same time also protect the users privacy while still using the main uh so that they cannot be single LED out and said like out this is math. You make this transaction. I don't like this transaction then thanks. So you know .

yeah that's great. I mean, I just I recently visited prior bitcoin in brazil um and I believe they run on elan bits right now and I said to them was like this is like the perfect use case for e cash um for the community and that was the main that was his main concern, right? His main concern was I don't want to I would love to not know the financial activity of my community members um but I need to make sure I can I can easily control who actually uses IT so IT doesn't you know go out to the entire world and some random people .

are using IT that's a funny like I have that conversation with private, but I had the exact same conversation with another person from another big on project like that like it's it's a it's it's it's a concern that has been voiced over and over again. And so where we're almost there, we're almost fixed IT. And soon you'll be able to also do that with the cash pot go.

wonderful. yeah. So i'm on the ground constantly speaking the good word of e cash and cash.

O um I 呀 what was so so right now I have two more topics。 So I know your time and scare some lima rap um but so I feel like we can just talk for hours. But we'll have you back in six months.

We will do the six months cycle and who knows what the intra clip will be like in six months is going to be insane. Ah right now i'm using for zs on the amusing and pop up cash um which provides me A A lightning address. So I have a lightning address that works with a greater lightning network um and i'm able to easily access uh that e cash wallet with just my my noster credential.

So IT makes a very convenient for me. I can just use a noster extension and science amp by cash. So all these apps that we've been receiving from the rider dies today on the stream actually getting paid directly into an e cash while that's provided by and pub cash.

When I go to redeem those IT IT because of the nature of zap s, right, like some zaps are are quite large, right, like I have like shout U T X O in the live site, just APP ed, forty two thousand sites, and moshe is APP ten thousand sites. And we also have sharp shader who's apt twenty one sets. And so the result is the wallet ends up having many, many e cash token, senate of different sizes and nominations.

So when I go to redeem IT, IT appears to me as a humble user. IT appears to me that i'm only able to redeem one u two, one, one talking at a time. Um do you have any thoughts there? Is there like a way for users to combine them to make withdraw easier? Like how how can you explain that process a little bit for us?

Yeah yeah ah that's that's a that's a good observation and actually a problem that we can thinking about just recently. So what this service does is basically generates and invoice from the man that uh that the service users. So there will be a mage and generates an invoice and serves that invoice as a lan uo invoice.

So in when anyone says that invoice, what happens in the background is that the service and and pop top cash service notices that the invoice has been paid and then means e cash and puts IT aside for you. And then later when you come back online, you basically asked to, sorry, hate, sorry, did I get any new e cash while I was offline? And to so just gives you the e cash now because IT needs to meall the e cash for every single payment, uh, that you receive.

IT can add up to quite a lot. And I can be kind of unnecessary because maybe as you said IT, maybe IT was like a bunch of small to twenty one said payments and every time IT meant to twenty one said that actually use like three or four e cash proves in order to get to that amount. So you can just like see how the number of e cash tokens just keeps growing and going growing.

And at some point that will be no, just take some time until you don't know all that e cash from literally. So uh, we have a solution for that, which is, I mean, they would go into a technical data, but essentially h the idea is to not make the server a mint, the e cash for you. But the service basically just checks whether the payment has been received and then gives you the ability to maintain when you come back online.

So that will result in, at first of way, less back and forth and server having to mind and then you know accumulating all those tokens that can then be redeemed all advance. But rather, your wallet can decide how many profit should meant for that payment. And that's usually the Better choice because your wallet knows best which tokens, which tokened amounts IT should receive in order to have the most efficient wallet amount distribution.

basic. But uh, I like long story short. Yes, this is something that we're aware of. And I think we have a solution to that, that we kind of started working on right now. As I mentioned， like with the ability of the server not maintain IT for you, but just giving you the ability to mention when you come online.

So is that makes sense to me? But then also from like a big coin perspective, right? We have when bitcoin, we have this this concept of U T EXO right of of of inputs in a action, you send the transaction and your transaction on the input side might have many inputs and to lower your fee burden in the future.

What a lot of people do well, then they'll take a lot of inputs and i'll send them to themselves, right, and will send them to thousand were result in one larger output. Now that has privacy implications on bitcoin. Um is there is there some technique there with e cash with cash you to do something similar wear on the wall outside the user basically just combines a bunch of tokens into one bigger token after .

the fact or yeah definitely works the same way. So the one restriction with cash is that not every amount is possible, like with a bit kind, so bit coin, so can have any possible amount. We don't want that in casual because uh, to keep the number of different amounts critical for for privacy and the union set. But given that, uh, IT works basically exactly the same way you can think of a unspent e or can lucky U T O. And you can take all many of them, put them into a single transaction as inputs and then define outputs with new amounts and new amount distribution.

And uh, so you can do that, your cash ald will do that when you have like if you have a casual with that's a thousand of one set tokens and you make one one thousand set transaction, send IT to yourself and receive IT, then you'll end up with way less talking that was that you time to IT. So IT does exactly the same thing as a bit convoy at the end of the day, managing do you take off and the amounts. Um but uh, we will also see fees happening more and more so since the last time we match us back then, working heavily like on the fee implementation, allowing to Operators to also charge a fee for input.

Um that's because their database keeps growing with the number of e cash open set their process over time. So um there needs to be some cost offset that is proportional to the cost of the land and in this case, will be paid with e cash fees. And at the end of the day, e cash users will have the same concerns a concerns as become users but only with a fraction of the cost basically.

And the concern will be how do I keep the number of e cash tokens kind of as minimum as possible so that my fees remain as low as possible? Um that's surprise for anonymity. Like if you want to um make an a privacy preserving system uh sustainable, then you need to charge fees for the amount of data and costs in court. And in the case of equation, it's pretty much the same way of computing that costs like uh with bitcoin.

It's like based on data. So is not the amount of money you're .

sending yeah there .

is there is there privacy concern to combining all those input?

You commented on that as well. So way, way less than a bitcoin because uh the the you know the magic thing about e cash is first no, I should start with bitcoin uh with because you have you takes all and your transactions and when you sense like a bunch u takes inside a transaction, they kind of like they got they get multon into a single thing and then they split up back into a bunch of takes off. And we call that the transaction graph.

So you see what's going in. You see what's going out. And now the problem with this is that if you then spent the outputs of that transaction like this new music or that you've credit, if you spend them again, there again as well, connected to the very first youtube also that you put in, in the beginning.

So everything is connected to everything in bitcoin, and everyone can see all connections. That's what makes coin console lida so bad because first of you dogs that you have all these, you takes those. But even worse is from that moment on, you make a way easier to track everything that you do from that day on that's like the forward privacy basically is terrible, unfortunately.

Uh, this is a real concern. And with e cash, you have the second point. IT doesn't exist. With e cash, you have no transaction grass.

So once you make one transaction, 你 开始 transaction and you can then use the outputs of the transaction to with for any other transaction data， but there is no graph between them. There is no connection between the outputs of one transaction and the inputs of the next transaction. So you can consult IT as much as you want.

The mint only sees that a certain amount has been spent and a certain number of you takes also has been spent and the outputs, uh, look like this. But when you later spend these outputs, again, they do they look nothing like the outputs uh, of the previous transaction. So you you have no transaction graph, which means that you you may lose privacy for a single transaction。 But once you are over with that single transaction, you're back to basically perfect privacy again.

That's the nice thing about e cash. You can fuck up your your privacy because you make a mistake, but in order to fix your privacy, you just make one transaction. good.

Got IT. Yeah, that me. So it's not in practice, it's not really that much of a privacy risk. I I I imagine a bigger privacy risk. There's less users of amen people making these types of consultation.

Privacy is your the ability of an observer to distinguish you from your announce set. And so these are all topics and uh words that we have used in in today's episode already. But uh actually the more people use the mint, the larger the anonymity because the the larger the number of people that you can be confused with. That's the that's the goal. Like you want to look like everyone else, what do they say? Like a no, that's a different thing, but it's applies a partially that's like no one is watching and encrypt like everyone is at the point in encryption and uh private in general is to make everyone look the same such that no one can be single thought.

So should should wallets do you want to see front ends that have like a combined button? Like should I have like a easy combined button in cash on me that I just click in?

I know the what that does that for you already like cash of me does that already for you?

You just while making transactions.

just do while you're receiving and sending money, the wallet always calculates like what's the best next distribution that I should have and try to achieve that. So if you receive like uh thousand tokens from in part of cash, you will have a transaction with like thousand inputs, but the outputs will be the only eight outputs or so. So IT will reduce the number of outputs all the time as much as possible because uh, eventually you you know IT also tries to be smart about the future because you you'll have to pay fees at some point when if these are count on.

So when users are using a competing while all everything we just .

discussed, they just don't listener, a Normal user won't have anything to do with these questions. They just send and receive everything is automated.

Uh some um before we get to my last topic, I see a comment from mosche in live chat that I am curious as well if if you restore a wallet with cash, you on me like using the seed words, can you run two different instances of the same lot?

yes. So this will be this would be like A P T S D uh inducing question for bitcoin train bullet because it's the same issue with bit corn on chain wallet。 So the issue is if you have a bit corn wallet and a city phrase and you import that seed phrase in a different wallet and then you use both wallets at the same time, your fact that is your new a fuck, but your wallets will think like what's going on.

You don't need money. But like the interface starts getting jacky and doesn't show the right baLances.

Yeah so glitchy because like how the one wallet doesn't know about the other wallet and like they are now working with the same money basically and doing their own thing. So uh so to come to the to the answer to that question right now and cash at me, when you open the one generous see phrase for you and then you do you have an you have an option to restore from the city phrase where you have to enter a seat phrase.

So when you go to the screen and you entered the city phrases to restore e cash IT restores to your current seat race. So IT doesn't use two city face. At the same time, you can only enter a seat race to restore the coins from that seat race.

But once you use the coins, they are not bound to that seat place anymore. They become bound to the actual surface of the world. So, uh, you don't run into this issue where you could have two walls with the second phrase on two different devices and you know produce these problems .

of a inconsistently, are you yeah, I thought that was what the answer was. Are you you working on some kind of solution for multi instance, like just an example, like my dad, i've got to my whole family on to signal and and the key way I did that was that was the only way they were going to get baby photos. But like a major blocker for him for a while was that you couldn't use signal on ipad and like for whatever reason, people just expect to have like multi device same instance support. Is that untangle on cash you or is there a way to do IT you just haven't figured.

yeah um I think that's one of the hardest questions and the most important questions actually going forward in terms of U S is you want the same money on multiple devices and it's so much harder than you then you can imagine.

Uh, so one way of doing that and that's actually you know goes to credit, go to public is new sexy and is so cold to say that like the closest thing of to achieving that to have the same wallet on two different devices is using synching ization of that wallet using noster right now is next sixty. And with next sixty, you essentially store your e cash on a monster relay, and that becomes the source of truth. So you have these two wallets.

They just subscribe to events on a osr ay. And when you receive money, both of them get an events and get the new e cash in. And when you send money, both them get an event and get e cash out. And so you can try to send.

And at the same time, to be completely precise, like if you have two wallets racing each other and trying to spend the same e cash at the same time, like one of them will fail and the other one will succeed because they might not have been able to synching ize exactly on the lock and exactly at the time. But like cool cares that just one err, uh, the world can recover from the end. Everything is okay.

So I think we're getting to a place where this becomes more and more possible. I think we haven't talked about next sixty a lot. A today is one of the coolest things.

I think it's a huge, huge improvement for U X. On on noster. IT allows you to build noster wallets without any additional software. You can just have the the same wallet and the same money connected to your insect from every device that you log in. And that make you know sounds a lot like the problem that we've been just talking about.

Um but I think there's still like the major issue in this approach and it's a hard one to crack is that you know your e cash wallet is can be a significant amount of data at some times. Like there is most ek votes will be less than one mega bites in size, but some of them will be ten make about its size because they're like super popular podcast host like you are and they get a bunch of steps on the cash. And then but what IT size grows substantially, and that can be problematic.

You know what? It's tried to be smart about IT, as I told you, but if they are not, you still have to deal with the e cash somehow. So how do you synchronous wallets and ten megabits like that? You know, that's the, that's the threshold.

Ld grade become super annoying. One makeup is maybe something we can. You can still tolerate IT with a smart phone.

You have two smart phones every time you open the APP. IT takes you like a one make about downtown to get the latest state. Maybe that's okay. You could argue IT is not now. Uh, so the problem is you always have many e cash tokens. And fortunately, there is one way to solve this and it's like the most sized project that we work on in casual and it's called uh, any amount e cash or anonymous amount e cash sometimes are called blinded amount e cash.

And so uh uh the way uh this is I can explain this is, you know, you have to remember what I said before, the reason why we have e cash with multiple different the nominations, the different amounts like one set, two, four, eight, sixteen, thirty two and on like not every every amount is possible. Only these specific amounts are possible. And then you combine any amount with these building blocks.

And the reason we do that is for private. I said, you want to keep the union set. You want to look like anyone who has thirty two sets.

And that makes the privacy great of owning thirty two set token. Ts, now you could solve all these issues with having many tokens and having to synchronize a lot of data. If you just say, fuck IT, I don't care about privacy.

I want e cash tokens with every possible amount. And then you suddenly your wallet becomes a lot simpler, is just like one single nut is a one single token. And when you receive a uh, new ecs talking, you just added to the not and you end up with, again, just one single.

But but the problem is IT has a very specific amount like IT would be visible that you know there is one user who has three thousand five hundred and twenty six sets and now he received twelve sets. Now yes, three thousand five hundred twenty six plus twelve sets. So it's super easy to track the wallet if you allow any specific amount.

So we have privacy baLanced against efficiency, in this example, classical control. And we chose privacy because that's what e cash is good for, right? And uh, we we suffer a lot and efficiency, meaning that we end up with wallets that can be one mega bite in size, sometimes ten mega bite insides, just to keep their privacy intact.

So this is all a big issue. Uh, no, no, what make about is tolerable. But once you want go like into the web and you want an e cash wallet inside every websites that you visit, maybe you want to just to be a small javascript outlet that is just thirty two bites or something to load like. That's what you need to achieve in order to permit the entire web, you nearing tiny wallets in order to permeate the web.

But you cannot do that um if you want to uphold privacies I said fortunately there is a science fiction method called caveat or uh you know um is also part of the signal protocol and is finally it's the ecs system used in robby sorby uh lobby itself to point on protocol uses something very similar to e cash and they have the same exact problem like they need to uh basically be able to hide the amount and maybe you know the listeners will remember at some point while he said, hey, no, you can point join any amount that you want to us you know previously that just very fixed amount like zero point one bit kind of, zero point zero one bit kind or something like only those specific amounts. And then at some point they transition into any amount protocol. And the way they could achieve this while still remaining privacy was blinded amounts.

Now I know this, my my mono has been going on for quite some time, but bear with me because this is super interesting. So anonymous amount e cash works the same way as uh, liquid confidential transactions work, or also transactions on monaro work and the way these transactions work on confidence transactions on and liquid, for example, is you can make a liquid transaction where, uh, you can hide what the input amounts to the transaction is and what the outputs around off the transaction is. You can make a transaction that looks like something is going in and something is going out, but no one sees what's going in and what's going out.

And the way everyone verifies the transaction like this, basically make sure that you don't print e cash out of or uh uh sorry, liquid B T C out of thin air is that you provide a zero knowledge proof that the inputs equals the output. So basically you post an encrypted transaction that doesn't have amounts in them. And you also produce a zero more proof that says, like, I won't tell you the amount, but I can prove to you that the amount that I put in are the same amount that I put out, and that's enough to validate the transaction.

Now we know that you didn't print money than air. We can validate transaction. Everything is fine, and we're trying to do something similar with casual.

This is a huge project that has been ongoing for a long time and tom is the major contribute cash was amazingly talented and a crazy good hacker and he's working on this basically implementing this while we should we start protocol into casual such that we can uh have amount blinded e cash at some point and once we have amount blinded e cash, we can build e cash was that have one single nut and there will be there will be so simple to work with because everything will get Better once we have that. Uh uh e cash wallet will have just a constant size. IT will be one single token.

And whenever you receive tokens, you will just add on to that one single token and that will grow and drink as you make and receive payments. And the only reason we can do that is because we we will be able to black the amount, otherwise we couldn't justify that because this will destroy the privacy. But once you combine the the amount, blind of nature of that, you can make super efficient tiny e cash wallets with a single nut.

And also on top of that, you know it's even Better than with confidential transactions where for confidence transaction on liquid and also in parts also monaro you although you hike the amount, you don't hide the transaction graph. You still see who sending uh money to whom or which you takes us destroy and which you takes those are generated. But you hide the amount with e cash uh with confidential amounts and e cash uh you can basically hide the amount and hide the transaction graph.

And IT will be just IT will be crazy, insane. I think that would be a true innovation actually because this hasn't been achieved yet in the e cash space. So say and will be um you know will be enjoying the latest and greatest you cash check in a bit time space because of that.

That's that's so then you you have you have hyper efficiency while you still have the privacy guarantees. And then to the multi instance question, we could then store those hyper efficient wallets on a couple release. Maybe just case one or two goes down and you can have a multi instance.

IT will be instant and the storage cost will be because will be like thirty two by that you store on on a nosti line.

That's that's an entire. I mean, what is the time mine on that? Do you think by the next time you're on the show? And six months will have .

Better in six times will have a prototype like what we want to do is to really integrate this into the casual political, such as everyone can then choose inside a casual wallet, maybe to, you know, go into that uh, uh, any amount pull and then switch back and forth. I think both approaches will need to exist side by side because one is much easier.

And simply in terms of prototype y, that's the O G casual that just so simple that's like left curve. I I need e cash. This is the way and then we'll have the rights curve uh P H D in cryo graphing kind of hidden amount, crazy efficient uh ec system that is hard to understand but uh amazing to work with.

So then yeah sorry um you you know your your own your your own worst enemy in terms of trying to keep this riptide because your answers then run my brain and then I ask more questions based on them um so to the fee conversation we had earlier. Presumably that this any amount blinded amount version would have significant less fees than the IT will have a lotless fees and IT .

will be way cheaper torrini's for as a consequence to that like the fees will you you you might probably get away with zero fees at that point because, uh, you basically just have to make sure that not the same person is trying to spend the service at this point point like you will barely save anything. A single transaction just leaves, let's say, thirty to bite imprint on you.

That's like infinite .

under transactions.

That s okay. Fucking awesome conversation. I was on my last topic because I can't let you escape without having this conversation every fucking time. Um is you said two things about this topic one you said on still dispatch you said um i'm not going to stop using ex because I still need IT um and then another comment you made on noster and you said I don't use noster to support noster.

I use noster because this is my natural habitat um you know I I tend to very much relate to the latter um and I also kind of relate to the former like I respect if you feel you need x um but I got to the point where I felt I didn't need you anymore and I was willing to make an ideological move um away from a platform that I couldn't support with my content anymore and my usage. Um what is your opinion on current the current state of noster adoption where we are right now? Like how how do you think about that ecosystem? I think my perspective .

dos doesn't reflect a everyone's like a large portion of users. That's why like that, my my disclaiming preferences are probably not compatible with most people. So my preference is the following. As I said, I hate social media general, like I don't want to be part of social media is suck the life blood out of you and IT makes all the people on the planet enemies of each other because idealizes the other side and just perpetually anger and so on.

Like it's a full on hard core propaganda machine that has been built by hyper capital, lucan valley to mind control you and make you hate everyone and stay addicted to IT. Like that's my little rent. I am only on social media for a bitcoin.

So um that's why I can I I think like x is still kind of bearable for me because I limit myself to bit on only and try to um ignore everything else. The reason why I X is very simple, like egis's, in that senses that I need to reach more people with the tech that i'm building, and I want to reach as many people as possible. And I also want to break out of echo chAmbers and maybe reach people, uh, that aren't already in my own chAmber.

Now coming to noster for me noster, I think like let's be I won't be like perfectly honest on this. I've been a bit disappointed with the growth of noster in terms of when IT compare itself to other networks and just in terms of the number of people. But um saying that i'm completely like fine with that personally because I don't need other people.

I am like i'm not looking for a place in sta are not looking for a place where just I can talk to anyone, anywhere. I'm looking for a place to be with my bittorrent bodies and I want to be with my bit dcom bodies in a place that's not controlled by elon or whoever IT is ah. Who whoever is your current dictators today basically like for that you know that use case not one.

For me, perfect is is basically perfect. What I would wish for is more big cones to join muster, and that's IT like. Personally, I don't get anything else or more from that.

Now setting that aside, I am looking also, you know, last couple days everyone has been talking about blue sky and you we don't need to talk about X. I think x just fucked up and everyone who is there hates IT and that that tells you a lot about the place itself. But um still like with monster, although we don't have the user numbers, the tech we have is amazing.

It's just there is nothing even closely comparable to IT. I have looked at reporters of blue sky tools and sound like what they've been building. It's all a bunch of complicated stuff and it's not just you know D E build IT in one day and for some reason that works kind of a development as we have enough.

I think ah that's just because of the design of noster and maybe also people that IT attracts. But noster is so simple that um i'm not concerned about its existence is just too useful to not be of use. And even if the social aspect of nsa doesn't grow like exponentially, as you know some people would, even if the tall troves of users these days go to blue guy with one million new users per day where noster still creeps around, I don't know, ten thousand active pumpkins per day or something.

Um I think that, you know, there is already so much software and tooling that juices monster, that even if all the people would leave, there would be enough computer still using the network. And, you know, I find that supervolume like this is where I want to be. I I want to be in a place where the the possibilities are sort of speak like almost end this because you are able to build anything or with just a couple, couple of clicks and steps.

So, uh, i've remain bullish and dedicated. I don't know where else to go um and um I just want to be close with my biton bodies and and you know right or die like I don't fucking care about the influx of users. So that said.

yeah I mean the writer dies already on monster. It's a success from that point of view. Um I think there's a little bit too much fascination with the because nosters so open and transparent unlike the critical daily active users metric.

Um I think that's mostly a slave metric. Um how many adults do you have? And I also think IT doesn't properly measure workers um like people who just consume content and are just reading. I'm not in engaging .

and yeah but it's important .

to realize that with a protocol instead of a platform, my x is x or instagram or read IT. These are world gardens. You have to sign up to consume that consume those discussions and consume that content um with noster. You know anyone who has an internet connection can do that without permission and no one would know, uh those people aren't getting tracked right now and you see IT when something breaks on noster.

Um the people that pretend that they're not using noster tend to find out about IT within ten minutes um and that's because IT is IT is open and is successful to everyone but I will say that um you didn't mention something interesting there which is I also you know i'm not a social media person like my only social media for the last decade was was twitter and I was only using him for big quin things um so I continued that's what I used noster R N out just for big in things. And there is a common refrain that people have you're like all there is too much big coin content on noster. And to me, like the biggest issue is that there's not enough like i've been a little bit frustrated with the amount of bitcoin discussion and good bitcoin discussion on noster.

And I know it's not really happening on ex either because it's cessions now. And I think just good bitcoin discussion is harder to find than it's ever been in the past. I think we solve that a lot. You know we will solve that. And and that's basic through the tools making the tools Better.

So like prime al, for instance, um has a has a massive update that's coming out this week um and i'm going to have a million um the the project leader over a primal on cattle dispatch next week, probably monday for export. I'll tell you, I noster the exact time is not sudden stone yet, but the blue sky you mention blue sky and blue sky are really interesting phenomenon where people. Most people don't care about the text stack, uh, when they're using these things.

They just care about how the apps work in practice. And actually, with blue guy, people are seeking IT up because they want more moderation, which is like the exact opposite of nast's ethos. So I think like we, we, we win in that front.

We win in terms of more, more people use and more, more useful conversation happening when the tools are so easy that, you know, the censorship persistence, the verifiability, the permissionless lessuns, it's just kind of a side effect of what you get from using IT, and it's just a way Better user experience. Um and I think you know a there are many developers in in master that have realized this and are making great strides on this. And particularly the primal team is very laser focused on kind of this quote quote, you know mainstream client.

So an amazing job that guys amazing yeah .

I was I I don't want to give a way too much information because because I don't want to I don't want take millions thunder but um this next prime launch, I I puts IT ahead of acts in terms of use ability and search functionality and organizations and IT just makes IT .

a way Better experience all without .

a cashing server no .

with a cashing .

server aching server .

all that's school uh I wanted get to to your point with um with bit corn content. I actually like just um I don't hear that as a job like I don't know if that was meant to be a joke or not. Like I would be like seriously, I think the same thing there is not enough bitcoin and discussion on noster and that's because my particular interest and obsession is bitcoin.

Um as I said, like I want to to know everything about the coin and know everything everyone who's talking about bit kind I want them uh in my face but um I am like kind of disappointed by the bitcoin conversational space for a long time level. Already the case when everything was happening on on edit and then the community for some like unexplained and or or implicit reason moved over to x and that that was the reason why I joined x in the first place, was also just to be closed with the bitcoin conversation. And to be kind of shocked that no one is not, I shouldn't.

No one, but like most of deaths, which are the, you know, the ones that I would like to follow their conversation, like I would enter the room, the rooms in which they hang out because I wants to hear over hear what they're talking to each other like I want to here from seal and talk to A A lula from, uh, sorry, was a narrow from lighting labs and I I want to observe that discussion, and I think that kind of discussion should really happen on sa, not on x, because we're building a decentralized money system that shakes the foundations of the world's order. And you know, people are noticing that. And no, it's an important project that belongs to humanity and not to a single country or a single juristic ation.

So our communication medium should be neutral and IT, should be unsensible and should be long to everyone. Like the thing that we're building as well. But for the sake bit corn, like literally just uh a practical consideration. Uh so in that regards that when when later came out there was more exciting about that.

But uh, i'm still kind of surprise that even the most hard corner's in the space choose to bring their h discussions on to ex rather or ignore noster while it's just waiting there waiting here for their discussions and uh to to be part of that network. So uh, I think if we all uh went back to our social punk ideas and you know meditated about what we are doing here and what the goals are and so on, we will see that most of is is a way Better way of communicating about this. Even if the U.

X works like cookies about the U. X. I want censorship resistant speech about soft ce.

I don't want even the slightest possibility of a centralized entity being able to manipulate the change discussions to make decisions about how bid Colin should evolve. Like this is too important. We need neutral ground.

And no, these things are happening that this is like no conspiring fear is here. But uh, the C. R.

A playbook is partially, that is, to sway, discard and manipulate conversations and when you have someone like elon who just um you know probably and do whatever the current administration tells him to do because they got a way too much at his balls at this point uh and also the other way round， like he also got the administration at the balls in some in some way, you can just see that that's not good. It's not it's not a place to exchange ideas freely. Uh, your ideas aren't free on those centralized platforms.

Every single post you make there is for the financial benefit of that organza and nothing more. There is no other goal to maximize. They can save whatever they want.

They are use CoOperations with shareholders who don't give a fuck about any of the ideas that their spokespeople say. That's just the fact that you can be as ideas tic about each on as you like at the end of today. He has basically not say over is as long as he is like uh public uh investors and so .

so okay then right you said a Better than I can um Kelly, these conversations been great. Um I I want to end up with just a call to action to to cash you. I mean, I think um you guys have made great strides on the protocol, incredibly grateful that exists.

I think the frees, uh, if you haven't used if somehow you've made IT two an hour hours into this conversation and you'd have never used cash o um go to cash, you dot me, send a few sets and play around with IT use the tools calls way open to feedback like the feedback does actually help um a lot of the stuff, whether it's noster, whether it's cash, whether it's big coin, like you gotta use the thing, you've got ta use the thing, you have to play around with that. You got to get comfortable with that, you know and and good engineers are are always happy for intelligent feedback as a result. Kelly, um do you have a we have any final thoughts for the audience before you rap here?

Not bad. I my final thoughts are always the same and I just anna say again is like if you are death out there and just stickle your pickle, you know or if you are deaf lady and the stickle some some other part of your body is the this joke but um if you if you think like you should contribute a bit kind and you can feel the urge burning inside you as you stare into your corporate display and you tighten to your corporate keyboards and you know that your human potential is bigger than what you are doing, then consider becoming a bit condell IT is freedom.

Self determination is a project for humanity. You feel fulfillment and um and meet people in ways that you didn't even know exist so you need everyone who can join us on this mission. And uh if you are interested in casual, you can go to cash alt space.

Uh that's where you can find all the information about our project and uh you can talk to me directly. We're looking for contributors. We have lots of different uh, projects in many different languages.

Just a take a look, uh, the libraries and feel free to join our conversation and our channels. Ask me directly if you have any questions. That's totally fine and if you're not interested in cash because it's cost of your stuff. And so like you don't you are just your lightning person or you care about and two stuff like any person with that kind of interest is needed in this space and you should serious ly join bitcoin because, uh, otherwise no one else will do to work. So thank you for having your dell .

wonderful much of brother um you're always welcome um you everyone to come on the show before our six months round to be just text men will make IT happen and a huge chat out to the freak to join us in the the live chat you guys make the show unique and huge chat out told the freak out there you continue to support the show uh, with your incredibly scare sets, whether that's on zaps using the live stream or whether that sw podcasting two point of apps. I appreciate you will stay on both excepts.

Our world is chaotic, but life found its way by channeling energy to bring order to chaos. IT is in our nature to take signals amongst noise, because IT is third communication and exchange that we evolved beyond the tail into the dorm of civilization. I evolution thrives an exchange of the inside.

They flow through to the marketplace and form the signals to regulate how we coordinate. We are thinking to be right, speaks. So we learned, compete. This drives us too faciendo shape the world with our boys.

Now let the market think so, we build, we so we trade, we grow to meet our water and things we specialized to dry from the mind, our creations into reality. We may progress in our process to get more for less advancing society, or for dawn of the age of technology and and harness the energy to reach for ity. Our money embodies the power to.

We will be so. So the market becomes a channel for our connective energy to when value is traded, the value we are aligned. And so we evolve. This is how a with uncertainty, life continues to grow, but the dawn of tech gave rise like speed information exchange, so the transaction fast.

We further abstract money for energy and became more reminded on a few large entities to call ordinate trade, concentrating the power, resources and authority to create more and more of our money, distorting its signals, eroding its worth and throwing us speck into the darkness. K. O.

When we destroy the mechanism of money, we destroy our ability to navigate through uncertainty, and when we can trade value freely and directly, we must trust a few to govern the many. What happened? True innovation of the shape social, whose ideas, which problems so have progress depends on hearing many sites results, which shape of humanity.

When we cut off the perspectives that make up society, we lose side of the truth, that forms are entire reality. Each person's contribution build up our resilience. See, did we forget these differences of what strengths humanity? When communication breaks our words to the silence, our x become violent and the world is divided, and that the truth is twisted by our pain and our bias, eroding the common ground, making a small and more fragile to navigate uncertainty, we must so for a business, so everything gets tried and tested by various efforts, until we discover the system that best coordinates us mirrors life's process of channeling energy to create signal from chaos.

In the era of technology, we transform energy into computational power to process the noise of free markets and the structured order, and just by looking at numbers, we can derive how much power is required, produce chaos and inscribe a flow value, verify that our transactions happened in line with shared rules. We don't need to see trust when we can see proof. IT is real tank consensus that alliance us to above this is how most uncertainty allies continue to grow when we ever hold, be, preserve or in work and defend our invoice, which lets the true market emerge.

The strength of the design lies in each of our participation. Since we are the nose of channel our energy and the end as we claim responsibility to a holder, our rights, we radiate the power that brings our truth in tight. And when that thorn of like touches all parts of the globe and a rip throughout society, and IT returns as the hope that becomes the power, the spots humanity to ride the same power that use the creation of the mind.

And when our money and are truly set free and they transact the limits of past boundaries, now knowing becomes earning, and this become well, what happens ages over food evolution, when things are the hardest. As we have for the life, we have to push to the door. In these moments, we do what we do best. We take the chaos of the dance and use our power to create IT is in these months when you're all in alignment and are proud of different accents us to our highest stem, that up at all know that the world is not done. That is always dara all down.