Inside the Midnight Order - Ep. 4: 'Bizarre and Inconsistent'
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Hey, it's Deborah Roberts. I hope you're following Inside the Midnight Order, a behind-the-scenes look at how a group of young women is tackling one of the biggest murder cases in North America, the case of Robert Pickton. Here's Episode 4.

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This is Inside the Midnight Order.

Nancy, in this episode, Dr. Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order investigate the Picton family. What did we learn about them? Oh, wow. We learn a lot about the Picton family. I so respect the way that the team really dove in. They went for the granular. They went for land titles. First, let's talk about the

this ramshackle pig farm. Oh, Robert Picton. He's the Canadian equivalent of a hillbilly. He lives in a decrepit trailer. They are an incredibly wealthy family. The Pictons are big landowners in a very expensive part of the world. They own multiple businesses under different names and their land is quite valuable.

So that's first and foremost, really getting a sense of the scale. They started a nonprofit to throw huge parties basically adjacent to where scores of women were murdered. There's something so sick about that. So really again, and this is where it's about visiting the crime scene, understanding the proximity of Piggy's Palace, which was a big sort of country rave kind of thing where people would drink and party.

was walking distance from the farm and from where many women were killed. That's chilling. One of the lingering questions here, and it feels especially pressing right now because of this looming threat that the evidence might be destroyed. The question is whether Robert Pickton had co-conspirators. In your opinion, why would someone think that others might be involved? Look, these crimes went on for 20 years.

on a piece of land that had a lot of people coming and going this is not an isolated place this is not the Unabomber living in the middle of the woods this is a working farm adjacent to a big party venue so the likelihood just to start that there were no witnesses to me doesn't really add up it's unlikely he was able to pull this all off by himself procure the women

possibly murder them, then get rid of them. That's a lot for one person to do. DNA. There is a ton of DNA that has been gathered and accounted for all over that farm. Now, the thing that always jumped out to me is there are freezers where there were sizable body parts in the freezers. There's a lot of male DNA there.

That is near and around those freezers. That is near and around victims' DNA. There's commingled DNA. There are victims of Picton that have other unidentified male DNA attached to it. So there's a bunch of stuff. When you worked on this episode, which part of this investigation felt the most troubling to you or perhaps the most worthy of further scrutiny?

What part of the investigation felt the most troubling? Number one, the scrutiny of just not believing women and not believing sex workers and not believing people that society deems are unreliable. The other piece of the Picton case that really deserves more scrutiny is evidence destruction. This is only a 25-year-old case.

There are 20 additional murder charges where there is DNA connected to possibly Robert Pickton or possibly someone else. In order to dig deeper into this, I spoke with Midnight Order members Hasty and Anjali. Hasty is a victim advocate with a background in law. And Anjali is a medical student who specializes in forensic psychiatry. My conversation with them after a quick break.

This is Brad Milkey from the ABC News podcast Start Here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls. If you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctor's bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone, but one company is giving new meaning to the term house call

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This is Brad Milkey from the ABC News podcast Start Here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls. If you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctor's bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone, but one company is giving new meaning to the term house call.

Teladoc Health. You can choose a board-certified doctor that's right for you and get primary care from the comfort of your own home. Connect via phone or online with a board-certified doctor who will get to know you and provide whole-person care. Advice, prescriptions, even mental health support and referrals.

Teladoc Health is not only convenient, it's affordable too, and it's covered by a surprising number of insurance plans. Download the app to get started today or go online to register or schedule a visit at teladochealth.com. That's teladoc, T-E-L-A-D-O-C, health.com.

Hasti and Anjali, thank you so much for being with us. First of all, I'm curious as to how you initially even found out about the Midnight Order. Anjali, I mean, tell us how you discovered it and why you decided to join.

I was in my third year of undergrad at U of C, the University of Calgary, and I had just left a job. One of my best friends at the time, she had found out about Sasha's database and what Sasha was doing with the database. And I was just like, this is exactly what I need in my life right now is a little pick me up. And so I connected with Sasha and I ended up getting the very last spot available on the databases.

Wow, you snuck right in there. Good for you. Hasti, what about you? I met Sasha when we were in law school together. I knew she had this extensive background in psychology, which is what my first degree was in. And in speaking with her, it kind of came up as an opportunity. And from there, I got involved, met all of the girls and was lucky enough to be invited in. Wow.

Hasti, so for you, I mean, I know that you're described as a victim's advocate. That's an important theme throughout this entire docuseries is that this fight is going on for these women that sadly some are worried that they've been forgotten about. And we hear from the families throughout that are not letting their loved ones be forgotten. But you all are operating with this tremendous fear.

sense of responsibility behind you for these victims. So can you explain to us exactly what you did with your role sort of as a victim's advocate in the Midnight Order? That role was born out of having done a lot of volunteer work in underserved communities, especially in Vancouver, because that's where I grew up, specifically in the downtown east side. So it was very much about leading with a lot of empathy, especially when you consider how little empathy this community is given historically.

Where there's room for investigation, great, go ahead and do that. But when you're speaking to people, just be an empathetic ear and listen to what they have to say. Absolutely. I mean, you're leading with your heart first, clearly, but you're also operating with an arsenal of knowledge. You're a JD candidate, right? I mean, tell us about how you really jumpstarted your interest in law. While the law is something that everyone needs to interact with at some point in some capacity, it's

It's also something that's very much gatekept by having to pay $500 for a lawyer or something. And that's not an easy thing for most people. So it was more about making sure everyone has access to this very vital resource. You're clearly giving back in a huge way. And it's something that we see throughout this documentary series. Anjali, it's clear throughout the series that you...

have a tremendous knowledge and background in terms of forensic psychiatry. And that's something you're pursuing as a medical student. Where does that stand right now? And what inspired you the most to use that knowledge and sort of dive into this dark world of serial killers?

I have graduated medical school, thank goodness, and I'm now a resident at UBC in psychiatry. I knew I wanted to be a doctor at a very young age, but throughout my life I was always just gravitating towards things to do with the mind. And then I think it was just a combination of childhood experiences, my education in psychology and sociology.

I found that forensic psychiatry combined absolutely everything I was passionate about. And then also seeing kind of the impact on things like the Picton case on the families. It just pulled my heart in on such a deep level.

that I was just like, I could spend the rest of my life working with these populations and just trying to relieve some of the pain and try to bring more awareness about what actually happens to these individuals, why they're committing crime. That's like the golden question. Why did this happen? Hasti, for you, I mean, I know I listened to you in the docuseries talk about how

You found it almost implausible that Robert Pickton could have committed all of these murders. I'm not throwing out accusations here, but I'm just very curious as to when you're pulling apart this case, why you feel so strongly that, hmm, Robert Pickton probably didn't do this by himself.

So it's just very implausible to think no one ever saw people coming through and not necessarily leaving or like purses being left behind, but no woman necessarily on the property at that moment. And then obviously when you kind of dig into the fact that parties were being held on their property, on the other property that they own and who was attending those parties, the fact that there were a lot of regular faces, it just kind of culminates into feeling like this was kind of an open secret that either multiple people were involved or at least

many, many people knew and just kind of didn't really care again because of the people that made up the victim population for the most part.

There's still so many questions out there. And there's still questions surrounding these murders and the thought that other people either have information or were fully involved in these murders. So tell me a little bit more about Piggy's Palace. Piggy's Palace was their other property that was basically kind of like an event venue.

They would have these parties, but it was also rented out for club meetings and stuff like that. Again, just because I kind of grew up there, I have friends who are like, oh, yeah, my parents went to one party there years ago or whatever. It was just kind of this gross divey, from my understanding, kind of party place. But there was definitely this very seedy side to it.

I believe a lot of Hells Angels were continuously attending. A lot of women from the downtown Eastside were hired to attend as well. So here in the U.S., the Hells Angels, I mean, really is described by the DOJ as an outlaw motorcycle gang. What are some of the things that you uncovered about the Hells Angels attendance at Peggy's Palace?

From my recollection, a lot of it was people were seen wearing Hells Angels colors or their leather jackets or things like that. They really did, in my opinion, a really fantastic job of keeping things pretty secure in terms of specific names or anything like that when it came to attendance.

And so it sounds like there was never a direct connection made. We see in the docuseries, there was an investigator that led the Midnight Order to talk with Bill Hiscox, a man who worked at Piggy's Palace. And he's someone who sort of gave law enforcement tips about

And so he's clearly he's more than curious. He's suspicious. Right. What are some of the things that he is kind of uncovering that lead him to ask these questions? I believe one thing was that he got in contact with Crimestoppers, let them know that Robert frequently would hire sex workers from the downtown east side.

but also that recent visitors had noticed like a large collection of purses and IDs and clothing in the trailer that Robert would use. There was so much evidence found on that farm, but I do believe there were pills that were found, ones that had various like sedative properties. There were also a lot of sex toys that were found. There were a

a lot of women's belongings. There was an inhaler that was found. There was the meds. There were the sex toys. I believe there was a sex toy also that had like weapons that were attached to it. I'm worried that it's not clear to people how utterly horrifying it was. This was the largest crime scene in the history of Canada. I read that every single hazmat suit in the country was being used on that case at that time. That's how many people it took to just sift through the property.

Yeah. And even the equipment that was used to excavate the land, it was just left there because everyone was so horrified afterwards. Wow. And I read, too, that they actually warned people that had bought the hogs that maybe they shouldn't be eating that meat.

Pigs will eat almost anything except for teeth, I think is the one exception, and maybe some bones. And so, I mean, if there are hogs that are consuming human tissue and then we consume the hogs, it's nauseating. More with Hasty and Anjali after the break.

This is Brad Milkey from the ABC News podcast Start Here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls. If you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctor's bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone, but one company is giving new meaning to the term house call

Teladoc Health. You can choose a board-certified doctor that's right for you and get primary care from the comfort of your own home. Connect via phone or online with a board-certified doctor who will get to know you and provide whole-person care. Advice, prescriptions, even mental health support and referrals.

Teladoc Health is not only convenient, it's affordable too, and it's covered by a surprising number of insurance plans. Download the app to get started today or go online to register or schedule a visit at teladochealth.com. That's teladoc, T-E-L-A-D-O-C, health.com.

This is Brad Milkey from the ABC News podcast Start Here. As hard as it is to imagine, family doctors used to frequently make house calls. If you were sick, they would pack up their little black doctor's bag and they would come to your home to examine you. Those days seem long gone, but one company is giving new meaning to the term house call

Teladoc Health. You can choose a board-certified doctor that's right for you and get primary care from the comfort of your own home. Connect via phone or online with a board-certified doctor who will get to know you and provide whole-person care. Advice, prescriptions, even mental health support and referrals.

Teladoc Health is not only convenient, it's affordable too, and it's covered by a surprising number of insurance plans. Download the app to get started today or go online to register or schedule a visit at teladochealth.com. That's teladoc, T-E-L-A-D-O-C, health.com.

Sasha Reid is doing a ton of work right now to try and have the evidence that was taken from the Picton farm preserved so that potentially some of these other families could have answers and find justice. Tell me, Anjali, how Sasha told you about that. I do remember everyone being absolutely appalled. Everyone was like, oh, my God.

Everyone just kind of freaked out a little bit. And then Sasha was very reassuring in that we were going to take steps to try and prevent this from happening. And then as we were doing some filming, we were also advocating for it. And every time she would put in an application, she would update us, seek our help when needed. And we kind of just took it from there.

I mean, we're talking about 14,000 pieces of evidence here that were seized from the farm. And as you pointed out, this could be anything, clothing, inhalers, purses, to DNA evidence. Though police say human tissue is not included in the evidence that was slated to be destroyed. And we have to note that they said they are legally obligated to return evidence to families and destroy any whose owners could not be identified. But

But I do want to focus in on that DNA evidence for a bit. I mean, DNA technology in the last 20 years has exploded. And now you can do so much with so little. And so keeping some of this, I have to imagine that is high on the family's priority list. So Hasi, can you talk to us just a little bit about how the families are trying to navigate all of this?

You know, it's so tragic that the emphasis of these stories is so often on Robert Pickton. And I understand why, because there's this fascination with how is it that someone can be so capable of all of this depravity, but...

At the end of the day, there are individuals who were attacked and survived. There are individuals who their family members have gone missing and they've never gotten answers. When we're talking about evidence, sometimes, yes, it's some random fibers or something that are found on the farm. And those are very important when it comes to DNA testing. But you're also talking about

The jacket my sister was wearing the day she went missing, her favorite purse, what was in her purse, what she carried on her and what was meaningful to her. And this is the evidence they're also talking about throwing out and destroying. So it's very meaningful to the families who already have been denied adequate investigation, adequate representation, denied the empathy that they deserve, denied even having their cases pursued, let alone a conviction for the vast majority of them.

And then on top of that, to be told, OK, we're kind of done now. This is a valueless pursuit. These are valueless objects. It's really, really heartbreaking. And then just to run these numbers, the total number of missing women linked to their property by law enforcement is 33. But that Hickton told someone that he killed 49 women. He said it to this undercover officer. There's video of it.

Audio as well. But then he claims innocence on the other side. How do you make sense of that? All of us felt like it was bizarre and inconsistent. And it was maybe potentially not the most reliable argument.

thing or piece of evidence, despite the fact that it was Robert himself saying these things. I get all of that. As a team, the Midnight Order spoke with Robert Pickton's power of attorney. She was adamant that he was innocent. And she said something that really stayed with me. If the world were to find out what really happened, I think she said it would turn Canada upside down. I mean, to hear that

What are you thinking about now about the things that maybe we don't know? I think it makes sense for her to say that. It's such a devastation to realize that the systems that you put your trust in, the world that you live in, that's supposed to have institutions that are here to protect you.

are failing people on such a massive level. And to realize that the value that was placed on these women's lives, it was just so small and it was like almost non-existent. I think that statement of

this turning Canada upside down. It takes something of that magnitude to hopefully get people's attention and to get people riled up to understand the depravity of this injustice that's been committed against this group of people and how threatening it is to know that the institutions that are put in place and are purported to be protecting all of us have failed on pretty much every front that you can think of.

Right. Even as large as the scope was of the Picton farm and the questions that still remain, ultimately it highlights longstanding questions about how leadership turned a blind eye in the country. And the lack of accountability when they do so.

I think everybody better look out, especially if they're doing anything wrong up there in Canada. Angelina Hasti, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you so much.

And that was my interview with Angelina Hasty. We'll be back next week with our final episode featuring two special guests, Laura Mershenher, who was head of the missing persons unit in Vancouver during the Pickton case, and Brian Buckmeyer, legal contributor at ABC News and trial attorney. In this episode, we'll find out the latest developments in the Pickton case and find out what Pickton's lawyer himself thinks about the future of the case.

We also try to answer all the questions we still have about this complicated aftermath. Inside the Midnight Order is a co-production of Freeform and ABC Audio and a companion podcast to the Freeform true crime documentary series Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order, now streaming on Hulu. You can also stream the soundtrack. It's available now on all platforms.

I'm Kena Whitworth. My co-host is Nancy Schwartzman, director and executive producer of Sasha Reed and The Midnight Order. This series was produced by Camille Peterson, Meg Fierro, Amira Williams, and Jalyn McDuffie, with assistance from Freeforms, Katie Celia, and Megan Watera. Susie Liu is our supervising producer. Music by Nick Sena.

Special thanks to ABC Audio's Liz Alessi, Josh Kohan, Madeline Wood, and Ariel Chester. And Freeform's Amanda Kell, Allie Braman, Lindsay Chamness, Jasmine Karamzada, Heather Taylor, and Mike Wong. Laura Mayer is executive producer of podcast programming at ABC Audio.

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