#1431 Dylan LeClair | Michael Saylor's Bitcoin Bet Will Make Him Billions?!
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Whats up, everyone? This is not any pumping o many of you know me is pump. You are listening to the pump podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours.

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What's going on, guys? Today we have dilly clare. He is one of my favorite voices in the bit. In dillon packs.

The great world of the corporate treasury strategy, putting bitcoin on the baLances of publication of companies wide has created the best performing stocks in the entire world. And what that means for all these individual businesses, there's different flavors of IT. There's different strategies.

But dillon packs exactly what these people are doing, how IT works, why is creating value and where he sees these businesses going over the next ten to. There's microstrip gy, there's some more scientific. There's metta planet and many, many others.

These businesses are pioneering corporate finance, and the results speak for themselves down. The clare is here to explain IT all, so I hope you enjoy my latest conversation with him. Anthon pumpkin o runs pump investments. All views of him in the guest on his podcast are surely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of pop investment.

You should not treat any opinion expressed by pop or his gas as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular tragedy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

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Go check IT out A G dot com slash. Go where dollars. So then I thought, the best place start this conversation is microstrip.

Gy is obviously executing, he said, what novel? A new corporate finance playbook? Uh, you're very involved with meta planet, which is also doing same thing in japan, is a couple of other countries around the world that are now realizing putting bitcoin on the balancing could be this unlock in the public markets. Um help me understand what is the corporate treasury strategy for bitti in in these businesses?

Yeah um where to begin? I think you know we i'm sure many, many of the listeners here are familiar with the story. And I mean, I actually know quite vividly remember I think I think you are the second one not not to to to say that but uh, sailor came on to your podcast quite really, I think was Peters then yours and and basically laid out you know the the realization, the aha. A moment back in August twenty.

Dan, I was dulan. I was first. Don't worry.

I was again fair enough um but you know even back then, I think the the the playbook as you know articulated today was quite different, right? This was IT was a defensive move against cover um this cap from the baLance sheet. We're going to put IT into big coin.

Uh it's fast as sources digital gold. I think those things still apply. Uh but the playbook as IT is now um as seller and the microstrip gy uh treasury team of which you know they rebranded yesterday.

Um there's a few iterations of of what what is microstrip gy, what is what? What are you? What what is your business? And bitter bitcoin treasury company B T C. Um is is I I like it's a novel name, is a novel label. And I think you know that the strategy of a bitcoin treasury companies is you know much more much more advanced and much more uh of a well oil machine than IT was the the idea was four years ago of like this letice by the thing and see how IT plays out um because you know I think back then no one even even sailor and COO admit this that they didn't they didn't really fully understand the opportunity that they were you know walking in into um and so you know just two days ago pump and um you know i'm sure you you saw everybody did um you know microstrip gy announced the the biggest at the money equity uh facility in the history of capital markets to buy bitcoin um you know said with convertible notes and equity issue through the A T M, they're gonna. It's basically you know they are gonna delude you know, over the next three years they planned to delude the shares outstanding by you know, eighty percent or so.

And so you know, in a traditional financial al context, the shares would trader at nine thirty open I me that that you know if if costco or A T N T or or you know any of these kind of legacy companies next five hundred of the door, you know pick one out of a hat did this you know shareholders would you know protest they they would sell the stock in in in a rage um but microstrip es shares uh um you finish slightly right on the day but I performed bitcoin right and they they leverage biquet bouncy so I think the point is that that there there is a novel concept that that they you know seller the biceps strategy um kind of fano has they've stumbled into the last four years which is the notion that incremental delusion as you call IT and I I I almost hesitate now to say delusion because it's not not even deluded. It's a creative um to acquire more bitcoin and this is not this concept of B T C yield ld which some people have have said you know they don't like the frame the the phrasing of the terms because of you know can the history of of yield in the scrymgeour um but there are there new K P I, microsoft's K P I, which I think that the bigger vision is, is this is you know twenty years from now a widely adopted metric, maybe an official counting metric in the corporate uh treasury world. In the world of finance is you know what's your what's your B T C per share per fully delude to share.

Worst case scenario, every convert in stock option executive camp, all that's baked in. What's your bitcoin portcullises luted chair? Is that? Is that increasing or not? right? And in a bitcoin centric framework, that's a shareholder care about.

And so year year microsoft up in seventeen percent. B, T, C, yield, the big over fully luted chair, seventeen percent. So when you think of like equity I markets, right the the the crazy thing to think about is like you have to discount growth into the future. The video trading at forty x, you press earnings or whatever the whatever the current um P E ratio is now apples trading at at twenty five x thirty D X amazon's trading at thirty x their Price earnings. So when microstrip is saying all all you want is more bit coin, all the shareholder you want is more bit coin and a bit coin per shares at twenty percent this year, you to disco that they're right.

And so there's a really there's a really interesting thing going on where all the bi t coiner's are are cheering the delusion on and all the trade five people on the sideline are saying, you know these big coin people are idiots and and you know I the microphone is gone from one billion doll company to a fifty billion doll company in in four years. So I think this is you know remarkably said this is still early days um for the for the playbook and the bitcoin strategy as we know IT is the radical conception that that you know equity financing and that financing structured in an intelligent way um isn't isn't a bad thing and and and I must flip the entire corporate treasury world you know get financed ybics, hold no cash, hold no capital strip IT all away return to shareholders. Its turn that on its head and the remarkable thing is like no one no one has realized yet except um you know basically one one or two companies um and even even the big coin companies, the cyber companies like the coin base of the world coin base just announced a billion dolby back two days ago, right? So there's lot to begin to um but I I still think it's crazy enough. It's still early in the recognition that that you know this is a big, big, big shift and big coin is bringing in a shift, right? So there's a lot to cover that we can kind of dig in to all the details, but I was kind of say that, that's the overreach of of what we're looking at.

Let's talk about this bitcoin yield being kind of a benchmark. Um so the idea is that I own one chair. Um there's S A certain of bitcoin that I basically have claimed to on the baLance sheet um and even though there are more shares being issued, which usually meant means that uh my value of my share should be going down instead here because is buying more bitcoin for the baLance sheet. The amount of bitcoin that I have a clean to is actually going up and that's kind of this idea of this bitcoin yield whether ramifications of this does that change the way that people think about investing in microstrip gy? Um or is this more of something that from a corporate finance time point drives to return of and the value of the business and shareholders into its purely about optimizing kind of capital appreciation?

Yeah I mean, so let's remove microstrip gy added IT. And let's just say we're we're in hyper bonist world and you know you you you know you're looking at a publicly traded laundry man, right? And like this company has a bunch of laundry, max Oliver, manhattan, wherever else and all they do.

Is they is they have the facilities and they own them and they own the machines, or maybe they least them, who knows? But every single quarter, this company spits out cash, right? And what do they do with the cash? They hold this, do they? But there there they already have saturated the laundry mp market.

What they well wonder things that could do is by big coin, right? And so no shares are standing, no dead, just a plain old vanilla laundry and business. Let's just say it's public market is so they're reporting all this stuff right quarter of a quarter that can their cash flow is positive.

Their cash is going up. They take that cash they swept into by big one. There is a positive big coin, B, T, C yield quarter, a quarter. There's a positive.

There's a the rated change of big, fully deluded chair is going up, right? And so for a bitcoin dominated investor, for an investor that saying bitcoin is my account, it's my story value, this is how I want to measure value in this in this world, even though maybe this a little bit of more volatility, even, say, ten, twenty years out than the dollar, right? What is fine? And then then that that is positive.

B, D, C, O, I think what's what's sale and microsoft and and the kind of the early the early companies in the sort of face transitional realizing is and this is something that you know, like someone like myself, you know, coming from the world of, just like, oh, I can, you know, meet you or whoever else. We log on the coin base or cash shop. You send money.

You buy big one in ten minutes, you can send IT the cold storage doesn't matter IT like you know it's it's easier one, two, three like getting getting orange pill and understanding bitcoin yeah that's a step. But like once IT comes down down to IT, it's pretty easy to my big point. If europe a pension or a corporate, you know, if you if you will have a Mandate to on corporate bonds or you are a long only small cap equities fund or and another naming, you know, kind of ideas.

But the point is there's trillions of dollars of capital that, that can access. They can can even buy the big coin. T, F, can you buy ibt, you know the most best performing in etf ever? There's a lot of there's a lot of funds that can you buy? microstrip.

Gy, right? But what can you buy? And well, you can you know some of these funds, they can allocate four hundred million dollars to to to corporate convert bal notes or jack and right and so the earnings called yesterday, two days ago, I I highly recommend everybody go check IT out um well with my microstrip gy was amazing and and the slight deck they went through was was the the the was just one of the the best in presentations i'd ever seen there was the crazy to have that the corporate convertible notes this should by microstrip gy right the the me know that they this is an uh unsecured convertible note you know right now they have eighteen billion dollars of big coin.

There are four billion dollar debt so you know four one almost five two over clatter ized. Currently in in terms of death of the assets on the baLance feed um not including a software business. Um you know that's essentially right.

Those bonds have not performed backhoe. They issued six of them. You take the blended return of those and the blended return of where big coin, the Price of big one and Price of big in today, they will perform big coin.

But they also have an aBetted put option where there are a bonk, right? So so you if you're a bond alder and six years later, big coins done nowhere, you know they to pay back, right? And so that's that's pretty crazy.

And they have said, like you know, we don't necessarily expect these bonds or or not top performed on future, but the point is microstrip gies level B2C, they are performing big one on the upside and they are creating big, more big one for share. This convertible notes, you know, say at a forty percent conversion print grim the stocks at a thousand and fourteen hundred you are bonhomie. You have access, you know you you're bond converts into shares of the most voto stock on the market and the best performing stock on the market.

That's levered. B, T, C. right? So the the real novel you the little level conversation is, well, here's the nab, here's an that asset value. Here's the premium and they're playing this arb and its fleeting and we'll see how long at last like that's the norm take of like this is game stop its irrational zoo brand is coming to an end.

The real you know the big brain take is that you know this this is the first early phase phases of like the big quantization of the legal security market. Big one etf were kind of a line in the sand for the institutional adoption. We've the the the Green lightest has gone on.

The race is started. The started gone has gone off the quin etf for the best performing etf of all time in terms of inflows. And so there's now there's not the career risk there was on on this.

And so you know equity securities that are back by bitcoin, not not in the sense of a mutual fund, not in the sense of an etf because an etf candish a convertible no. And etf can't you know can't sweep access cash flies. They don't have access cash flows and overnight deposits. But if you're a public CoOperating company, you have a lot of flexibility. And so I think the point is that, that value in things as they have microsoft point near red in A B to c dominated framework that all big coin maximum st and everybody that's not thinking in the new world um you know is is benchmark to and and they and they want they want more biton.

They more big in returns and they want leverage biton exposure, right and so I think that you know the the issuing equity, issuing debt to buy more to buy more big coin in a way where you they're borrowing money for five years at at one percent, at zero percent, at two percent interest, right? And and the point is that there there are not even really paying that down because it's just converting into newsham a common stock, right? So so big coin pay fully delete shares going up.

The solving serres are going up as they continue to delete their shares and the shareholder cheer for IT. Um and so you know the point they made on the earnings call was, you know everybody's having this debate on line. Well, here's the premium.

Here's an at test value and its rational it's not a rational where where a growth company we're a tech company. How do you how do you value company has gone from one billion to fifty billion in four years? You know, q one, fast.

Because adopted, they are going to have a ten billion dollar earning sprint. It's the biggest rate, the biggest, you know, a quarter of a quarter change and earnings, the history of capital markets. So like the real crazy take is when you think about fast by adoption and the speak when treasury strategy, you have essentially kind of the emerging of the the P E.

Multiple world and this and this, you know, new corporate and treasury strategy world, right where the debate around N, N in the market, captain, asset value in all this stuff sort emerges with the world p shows, right? If M, S, T R, what inking about, if bitcoin goes to whatever you think that does in twenty twenty five? Do you know the earnings per share that microsoft s can record in that scenario?

Do you know that equity market investors and and you know all these passive you know these passive flows are gna value that at uh a multiple of the current earnings. And so this is entirely unprecedented. This is like the you know the microsoft gy team is writing the history box right now, so we don't know what comes next.

Um but I think you know based on last four years, you know past results don't equal future performance. Um but it's clear there's an insatiable amount of demand for these bit. Point back security, equity security and dead security and no one in the world can offer what they they are offering you a hetch one can offer IT a bank can offer IT a public Operating company that's one hundred thirty percent exposed to big on on their boundary.

You can, right? So it's super unique. Is really not understood that even by like very very slight respected you know finance uh prose um so I think there is there still a ton of opportunity and remarkably is still like you know only like the third ending here.

You're involved with meta planet, which is a uh japan based uh company that is pursuing something very similar. But what unique is that japan borrowing environment is is a little bit different than in the the united states. Describe maybe the parts of the microcode story that can be replicated by other companies like a meta planet somewhere scientific ETC. And then also, what are some of the ways that people can take this kind of corporate finance strategy and maybe add their own flavor like as you guys are doing in japan um according to the environment, the geography or or made the business strategy .

yeah so I mean we meta planet is no doubt and don't we don't shy from IT was inspired by the microstrip gy story. I I joined the company in may um about a few weeks after the the bitcoin uh standard was announced um and and kind of the implementation details were still being figured out. Um I think you know the point, there's going to be a lot of different flavors of this, right?

There's going to be you can think of the spectrum of like there's no bitcoin and then you know M S T R is one hundred thirty percent levered B T C. And they if you know and they're they're deluding as fast as they can. And they're issuing all these dead instruments in the traditional sense of which is risky, right? But a spectrum. It's not banner. It's not zero or M S T R.

Um you know someone like a square or block is here just is taking like x percent of the of their profits, five percent and D C I in the big one, right? So every corner they're going to announce a little bit big coin, but I don't think they have to buying from shareholders ers to triple their shares outstanding to buy big point for someone like metal planet, right? Metal planet was a legacy budget hotel company that got basically you know completely like doubt or and cove IT um restructure the entire baLance trade and was essentially you know and don't I away from this like A A zombie um in in twenty in twenty twenty three and twenty four um and so the point is you know japan offered a really unique opportunity where there is no decent exposure anywhere in the equity markets.

There there's no minors, there's no extreme coin base or microstrip gy, there's no etf and the tax rate on cypher right now, japan is like the high in the world. Um it's treated as missile ane's income. So it's up to like fifty five percent uh but list of security are twenty percent. So there is never mind that the interest red and the currency story, the debt GDP. So there's there's a like a bunch of star set, a line that made this a really unique, interesting opportunity. Um and so you know so far metaphor has has gone from you know eleven million shares outstanding to thirty six million and in six months, right um and and you know he has right now we have met a point at as five times I am out of a big point on its baLance sheet with no debt as the market cap was six months ago.

Um so the point is where you know the scale the scale is obviously like multiple orders of management de smaller than like say a microstrip gy to start um but the the the the playbook and the story is is similar and we and we openly say that right like microscope gy of the B T C is A K P I A key performance indicator? We're not trying to reinvent the wheel, right? So we we said early on in in April, we said, you know we want to increase our B T C per share.

Um but you know when you read microsoft gy disclosures, they're saying here's our fully delude chair outstanding. Here's what they are. Here's are converts. You know it's like full.

It's like overly transparent, right? And so we're like, you know I think um where we're going to do that same thing and we you know microstrip gy openly as and we want we we don't want IT. We're not gay keeping this.

We want this to be the standard. We want our transparency and we want our you know our K P, I 的 P T C yelled to be the standard。 So we adopted that.

And and now are, you know our our measure of whether we're doing, you know, uh, a good job for for our shareholders, for our partners is whether the big our total big coin perf little chairs going up and if it's not that we're not doing our job, right. And so I think that you know this is still super, super early days um but you know I would imagine right we've you know pump we've had twenty conversations. Just mean you you've had four hundred, five hundred podcast on bitcoin alone.

You we think both of us all the time on on on what this world looks like on the other side of like this big point than horizon, right? And I think was a little fuzzy, but is now coming more. And the focus is like, okay, if we go to the furthest extreme of what this bitcoin ize world looks like, right in bitcoin is like the benchmark for value, then what is the what is the uh you know, a measure of performance or or excEllence look like in in in that world for finance, right? And I think IT it's clear what IT looks like is well per share on a pero on a relative basis.

Is your big is your big one holdings going up or down, right? Because you can you can increase aggregate big coin holdings um while deluding your shareholder, right. But biton pressure is going down, right? So like you know a lot a lot of the miners have a lot of big coin, right? But mines are really tough business and you know there's many things in this appreciate.

So a lot of these miners have way more big one than they had four years ago, the public miners, but the bitcoin purfled ly to live at chairs gone down, right? And I understand, you know, they they're building sites and they're y're doing much more than just buying the coin, right? Um but the point is that that you know that kind of the true cut through the noise benchmark of of what success looks like or or at least to some, right. And so for us, we've we've tried to believe you know openly stated that we we are inspired by microstrip gy and looking to implement that as well.

And I think you know that if I had to to guess, I would you know say that there can be five and and ten and twenty and then one hundred companies that are you know using this is a benchmark uh for performance um but for a variety of reasons you know B T C yield as a benchmark, right? It's sort of it's sort of pigeon holds you into into one thing, right? Because if if you're using b to see you as a benchmark and then all of sudden you want to go make an acquisition, right? Or if you you know you are a tech company, you want to go buy out to start up or well, all of sudden if you use shares to do that, your b to see for share goes down, right? So if your shareholder only want one thing and they only want big coin, right? That that you know introduces an interesting element.

So this pressing, there's coins. But I think for us, this is, you know, this is the story and that's that's our one goal. We want to be we want to hold as much big one as possible. And I think you know the interesting thing is that for the first time um enough for the first time but in a way that wasn't as clear and transparent and quantifiable as IT is today, delusion can be nearly instantly a creative right. You can delude your shareholder in almost nearly standing your your you know uh per share value incremental ratched upward and this just a new dynamic right?

I mean that if you're real estate public company or whatever and you you do shareholders to make an acquisition or to you to invest in a new property, IT takes a few years to figure out whether that was a good opposition or if the real estate portfolio giving you a positive or why you might never know with that. You know you you know in in three days, right? So like the the the investment cycle, if you will, this is lot faster.

And so yeah, there's lot of interesting elements and and things to pick out. But I think you know the moral the stories is that this is a one way train in terms of bitcoin adoption, in terms of more companies adopting IT. Um but I want I don't think you should expect every there to be you know two thousand microstrip gy copycats exactly as they are.

You know there is going to be ten, there is going to be a lot of them. But I think a lot more companies, maybe a big tech company, maybe microsoft, they're only microsoft to buy ten billion dollars big coin and it's a relevant to their baLanced right. And like that's a lot of money um but relatives to the three trillion dollar market cap, they're not a big coin proxy, right? So that's where sailor that's where microstrip gy stories unique.

I think for us, that's where where unique, where we're not focusing on anything else. Um but for an establish corporate conglomerate, that's not that you're not going to go all in right. Relatively IT can be quite small even if your absolute position sizes big. So I think comes on all flavorous all shapes and sizes but it's a one way uh you know .

street for adoption microstrip gy is announced a forty two billion dollar kind of capital raised forth equity and that a part of that equity raised is the largest E T. M in history. For those they don't know, H E T M is like an at the market offering, where you basically selling shares into the market to raise capital from the business. They can do so when they choose to do IT once the team has been approved. And they can choose to do IT on good days, bad days, anywhere in between. What is the significance of this A T, M that microstrip gy has announced? Do you think that, uh, more, more companies will realize that these A T, S, watch, the between miners have been using pretty aggressively, uh, to find the growth is the path in the kind of lowest hanging fruit to be able to raise capital and then go by bitcoin for themselves yeah I mean.

I think you know for a lot these companies, the the first entrance, right? Like if you think about a company that you know what what if you could choose any company in the world if if they just instantly just kind of jumped on, you know the the next earnings collar they released in A K and said, uh we're deluding shares by ten percent to buy bitcoin and uh you know here's the first time hearing about IT IT would go over well right um especially if you are a big corporate like you just can't do that.

You can't just spring that upon your shareholders. You know IT says it's kind of a process of like we do this okay here really take take one percent stick five percent take that five percent that grows at ten hey, maybe we should buy more um hey, maybe we should increase the pressure. How do we do that? Well we could issue your shares look with this company did right have done IT you've done in eight separate times um so I think that's kind of how how IT all look um but yeah like right if you think about the you know you because of the interest rate environment, because of even even learning from like a two thousand and twenty twenty before you know the inflation wave that that had after covin, there was there was still A A prolonged period of negative real interest rates.

You know the the interest rates for zero and you know the the inflation rate was to two three percent in C B I terms. You know the real hurdle rate and say like the S P five hundred, if you're measuring matter a Vicky was lot higher but that maybe you you could say i'm too, but let just use C P I, right? Like you have negative to three percent real interest in that world.

So why would a CoOperation ever hold cash? And the the the fact of the matter, the smart ones didn't the smart ones are are borrowing as much money as they can long dated and they were buying back their stock, right? Like the post Steve jobs, like apple's biggest innovation is the ee by back.

And that's and that's fine. I think the the important thing to recognize is that you know it's just a matter of incentives. They're not doing anything wrong.

It's you know it's what most anybody else would do in their shoes um right like that how you return value tax efficiently to shareholders in this world, right? Because like with the with the dividend, you know both sides are getting tax with a buyback. You know just it's just you know kind of increasing the valuation of your shares, not it's not a taxable event directly until yourself.

Um and so that world rate is like your d capitalizing your bouncy. You're getting rid of capital as fast as you can because capital. You the cash al asset a liability which is like you know it's like how is a cash a liability? What IT is in the world? Word decreases in real terms every single year. It's liability.

Um so bitcoin you know the the idea that the bitcoin capital again can be an asset and that volatility itself is an asset, right which is like, wait, what do that again? And and the the real crazy thing and my microscope just stumbled into this was they bought bunch of bitcoin and the bitcoin went up and the bitcoin became a bigger and bigger percent of their market cap, and all the same, you know, microstrip gies. Like realized volatility had doubled, right? So, so.

And and for the C F O, right? Like the most, you don't want baLanced 的， tilly. You don't want stock volatility.

These things are scary and you should avoid them, right? Wall state, why would you ever buy bitcoin? It's volatile. Its way to risky. Stay away. And but the the real crazy thing you know the egg that was crack with with microstrip gy is that this volatilities and asset that's being leveraged um so so you know microsoft is is as volatile and now twice as volatile spin. Well because of this they can borrow for basically you free for four, five, six years um because how how do they do that?

Well, you know if I if I if you pull up the you know options on on e trade or Robin hood or international brokers are swap, whatever brokers do you use, and you just look at, you know, test less stock and you go to the further out and you want to buy a call option not for for after the money, just for today's Price. You want to buy a test la for today's Price, five years to ale. Well, that that option costs a lot of costs a lot of money.

Even buying IT say you have to pay a pretty fat premium to buy at fifty percent higher than the Prices today, five years from now. Or why? Because that opponent is really worth, is really valuable if the stock of double or triples, right? And the more votile of stock, the more uncertainty there is, the more you have to pay the at the fat of that premium is right um and so volatility in the world of options is is value.

And so a convertible note is just a dead instrument and and a basically A A call option on the company wrapped into one instrument. And so so this you know this this option this microstrip gy common stock option is host is the hardest thing in that markets um right because you training h you know a convertible note on on burger cafe away, a convertible note on you know just like a stock that barely trade. Isn't that is there almost no value there? I S IT depends where the the conversion Price is, right? But micros said, hey, forty percent out of the money, five years, right?

Well, that you know, plug that those values into a black controlled model, you know, it's a basically a fair value of kind of the expected distribution and kind of the bunch of matthei stuff. But the point is that the volatility is valuable to them. Um and so they've they've lead into IT.

They said, okay, we want we want more voluntier ity, more returns. We're going managers in the way we are not forced to sell, right? I think they learned lessons, microsoft learned lessons.

And twenty one and twenty two one, you know, the size of their their debt verse, their assets, you know kind of find tuning this to the point where they can bit s gonna draw w down by what? Fifty, sixty percent at some point, seventy percent. We you know you get through a few cycles, right? Like we, we we know that at the point where we think this is hybrid c conon ization.

And no, it'll never go down again. You, we'll get we'll get the next fifty, sixty percent pull back. And so the point is that they are they're structuring IT out where the liabilities are not really forced to sell. And they this you, this A T M, this twenty one doing A T M, they're going to be in the market every single day.

And the and the point is like microstrip gies volume has gone from actually don't know what I was very um prey big point right right now it's about five billion dollars a day, right? And so that's that's the same as the the magnificent seven. That's the same as new video or tesla or meta or amazon, right? But those are those are trillion to our companies.

Microsoft tics is fifty billion, right? So like that, the microstrip gy options of the hottest, the most, the biggest options chain in the U. S markets. So the point is that they can they can delete because of the volume, because of the volatility, because of the uncertainty, because of the trades and speculators and arbitrator res.

They're financing options for today compared to four years ago is is other worldly, you know the options chain microstrip gy and twenty twenty was three million and now it's it's like twenty five billion, right? So so like that it's just the the volatility and uh you know that uncertainty paradoxically opens up a lot of doors. And so when particularly for leaning into the speaker n strategy um in a way that know you really isn't comparable anybody else this face um you know they they have figured out on almost an engineering a feet rain financial Marks that has never been seen before.

And so that is basically completely upset, completely inverse to the the current meta right, the current corporate finance meta of get rid of capital, no vollar tilly, by by back the stock, right? Like they they want the opposite. They want high volatility.

They want more capital and and and they want you know higher performance because of IT. So I think you know that that world is a, is a new idea. It's a radical idea.

And I think it's one that makes a lot of the, you know, if you would never read that an efficient market hypothesis text book, right? You would never learn this in a harvard N B A, right? So a lot of the people you know this the c weeks, right? Like you're A C sweet executive, you're C F O to public company, you a four year term, you you have vested stock options like you just don't want to rock the boat, right?

There's no incentive like sales is like founder, he's got over fifty percent of the vote in shares like we're doing this right. But for others, you know you who owns your shares with fatal ity in black rock and bang guard and state street and and you know four other pensions and you know we are each we each on one percent of the share. So like we're not going to do a big queen standard because we don't want to blow this up.

Um but I think that's changing, right? The career risk has really been been diminished. I wouldn't say it's fully wipe out yet in the minds of everybody, but I mean, the results speak for itself.

Microsoft that performed every company in the S A P. Five hundred by a long shot. And you mentioned something .

that I think is worth elaborating on, which is the U. S. Dollar is actually a liability and this is something that may be popular and known in the big coin community. But I think most people in finance, uh most entrepreneurs um they don't see that they don't understand what that means. Can you explain yeah .

I you know I think if you can look in the past, you can look at the last four years or ten years, but I think really know the especially the savi investors, the political genes, the drug mellors um know they're saying that this is Michael o guys they're looking at the dead to G D P in the U S.

And every g seven nation in the saying there's no way fixed income bonds, even short direction, treasury's uh dead instrument have a positive R A Y um because no because functionally like these these countries, these sovereign s are are insolent um so so elect traditionally there's you know there's two ways to go about this. On the gold standard, they you know confiscate the goal to read value. The gold hired IT IT diminishes the real value of the debt on a debt base system.

You know, the only option is the basically you print your way up. Only options can fate your way up, which means by definition, just, you know, simple arithmetic, the the the year of the year percent change in inflation has to be higher than the interest rate, right? So that's the way to devalue the real value of the debt.

Is is financial oppression inflation above interstates? So in that world, okay, great, your treasure earning four percent, right? But your treasure earning four percent, while inflation of six means you're losing value in real terms.

So like the the the entire finance world is baked round, you know for projections and multiples. And and you know you're saying, okay, well, the company makes this amount of this amount of in earnings are cash for this year. So we're gna value IT, you know on our ten year projection.

And I think you know basically because of the the there's a lot of second order effects, but because of this this mass monetary experiment, because of this fiat currency in do in malay's almost uh, the the investment world is no longer I mean, there's there's many that are doing this, but but the the vast majority of investment capital, they're not going in and they're not putting up in excell SHE and sank. Well, okay. So here's the dad and the the liabilities and here's the cash flow and here's you know all the things to look at and here's our model on how to value this and the stocks worth this.

No, no, like the average person, the average retire, the average you know, corporate worker is planning money fifty two weeks a year into a basket of five hundred companies or a basket of every company in the us. At any Price, right? And this proportionally IT goes to the biggest companies, but like passive the passive initial ation of of investing flows, right? That that came as a result of etf, right?

I I think that that it's not that thing in a vacuum, but the the reason that this has happened is because the the original instrument that to be used for savings money no longer can can function as a sort of value. Wait in a in a hypothetical world where the dollar, you know, your unitive currency, whatever IT is, doesn't programmatically put. You know, it's not politically programs to lose value every year in that world.

Investing as we know that becomes much more of an of an active game. You have to pick winners and losers, right? It's a stock pickers market, right? Glass the last twenty years, let's to say now ten, twenty years, it's not a stock kers market. It's a moment's market, right?

The people that have one or the people that are chasing beta, chasing tech, right? They that performing, they that performs, you know the active managers, the value fun guy. Uh, I think the the value investors, you know the the reason they're under performing the value guys is not because they're dumb.

They're not they're really smart. You know these guys are warned about the disciples and they're getting performed every year by by teenagers punting Q Q Q. Oh, why? Well, sometimes are done again, it's because the thing that the denominator that they are using for all this calculus, there's an error term baked in that there's an, there's an error.

The error is the the value, the currencies going down, right? So so in a world world of the money is you know debasing, uh maybe of increasing rate slap with whatever multiple you want on all these tech companies IT, doesn't that other grow into IT you know like that and that's the world brain, right? And a lot of people don't recognize that.

Um and so whether that continues to not, you know that's that's a topic for debate. I think IT does I think we have to debate to get out of this. You know we had a we had the biggest inflation shock in fifty years.

We were talking about at all the twenty one and twenty two, the debt to G, D, P ratio didn't go down, right? The the point was in twenty, twenty, the fed chairs and everyone else was was clamoring for high inflation. We need inflation higher.

We need to shock markets. We we want, you know, just to let IT run hot. That's what they were saying, right? They did.

They definitely let IT run hot. Inflation wasn't transparent about how many times I said IT. The cost of goods now is that this effect is thirty percent higher, everything, thirty percent more expensive depending on average.

But the death ge didn't go down. It's flat, maybe picked up in in places. So the point is that the the the the basement is still guaranteed to come. So so you know know in the world of investing and whether you're just a stock stock pick or in investing in Robert, you're A C, F O, or you're a value on C I O, right?

Like the the the implicit assumption is that that you make in all this financial analysis is that you know the the ruler is accurate and the ruler is the dollar, the rulers, the dollar on a one year, five year, ten year, thirty year, you know, expected expected value. But that in the world that's broken, in the world where in to ten years and now the the money he's going to debase by by know it's going to debase by fifty percent more than the value you're going to get on, on the interest rates and cash. How do you what how do you measure things?

I think the the big quinn's are saying, you know the crazy radical big quinn's are saying what guys you're using around unit, right? It's not clear to everybody that big points the unit to measure because it's too bad, there's too much noise, you know it's too small um but increasingly, right, there's now one or two companies. There's now a small country. There's now a few kind of radical people that are, say, well, guys even telling you that this this is a new benchmark B2C um喂， 你好， look around and so I don't think we're there yet in the sense that everybodys going to finally say, okay, well, we get at the money is broken um but this this game can only go on for so long um I know it's politically polarizing this is so orange man is its blue team is red team the reality is is structural um and so you know in that world of the darl's broken many things are in disarray um and a lot of IT gets fixed to the second and third order or fix get fixed when that that you know that base error is no longer uh gonna ray right so the dollar the doors ultimately broken um and you know a lot people don't you don't C P I only year, but we really we all know that, that real inflation is is higher than two percent, right? Like that is just an implicit understanding that is a lot higher. So yeah I think that know that the corporate treasures of the world in the CF hos are still Operating you know they're saying a we we six percent over years yeah well in you know in twenty twenty two the inflation IT was night right unique grow you you shock right um so that's that's still you know not widely understood um or at least not it's kind of not spoken, but I think we all know it's it's happening.

What is this gonna like ten years from now, twenty years 那样， this kind of bitcoin treasury strategy. How do you think about this? You know there's the guys that are doing the microstrip gy true north podcast and content. Um there are people who are you know making large investments in these companies that that obviously if is going to be higher or Better in the future. But like what what does that actually look like a decade or two from now?

Yeah I think you know the you're going have a lot of companies that are Operating on on the quin standards. You're gonna know my I think microstrip gy truly is going to be one of the biggest companies in the world. Um you know they're gonna in the conversation of you know that max seven, right saying max seven whatever you want to call IT.

Um I think you know microloan c could ultimately be a five hundred billion a trillion doll company. Um you know I don't think you know how to value like how do how do you value that growth had how does the market value twenty percent increase in big point per share every year in afford looking a discounting at great market? No one knows.

Um and so but but more so you you know the real big goods of capital is is fixed income, right? And so these these convertible notes are the first the first ever such a big point bond. It's a it's a microstrip oi convert bond but it's implicity back to buy a bitcoin.

And so I think these this is the first you know it's the first crack of the damn, if you will, right? Like there's there's all of this capital that especially along and not to sure then you know, okay. And the the the fed fountains five percent and inflation six, okay, it's fine.

It's one year your short duration. Casual cares the real pain. And there there was R T bend, the biggest, you know, treasuries bare market in in the history of modern finance in twenty two and twenty three, right? The long end r relies to one percent of five percent.

But now the the I think the the realization the bond market is now coming to, especially with media, a higher chance of a chroma term are really either candidate is that, you know, the longer is going to be kind of qazi sacrificed, right? We have anchor's manufacturing. We have to, we have to get out of this this debt bubble in relative terms.

We have to devalue, right? Well, we're going to pin this long end, and now we're going going to let IT rip. And so in that world, where does all this capital go? Well, you can you like there's there's a hundred trillion hours of fixed income capital you can they can buy back on in days.

They can buy the back on etf. They can buy microsoft I stock. They can buy apple, google stop. They have to buy bonds.

And so I think the point is that, uh, you know, all these banks are coming to the bitcoin world. Um they you know not yet, but they're all gonna to study bitcoin. They all seem what happened with a bit. I think there is the realization that that biton as collateral is is perfect collateral.

If done right, psychic ate the collateral no we have location know yet to a you know someone like can't are coming out in july and saying you had A A great podcast with however, by the way um yeah he's a big, big, big, big coin ball um they have a two two billion dollar big coin cola alizon facility and so you know that that's a big signals to the traffic world, right um and so all these companies, all of these banks, are you going to say, well, in a big is is wait this a perfect collator or trades twenty four, seven, three, sixty five, we can overcloud ze IT. It's a no loss long business. Okay yeah I mean, let's let's put the bitcoin, you know the bitcoin borrow the borrow rate against your bitcoin at so for plus one hundred basis points, right?

There's no reason that I should be the borough against my apple stock or tesla stock or whatever stock at gold men or J P. Morgan at seventy five basis points, tired than the that funds rate. Big coin is five hundred basis points.

Uh, you know a above the that fund rate right now for they went back lending. Like the problem isn't the untrained capitals and the hood's and the counter fit jails of the world being greedy. The problem is like the credit, the private credit world world, the the fix income world hasn't understood the bitcoin story yet.

You know, the bitcoin is perfect clatter. So I think there's a two wrong kind of approach. There's there's the world of fixed income is realizing the power big coin now, which means that stuff like M S D R convertible notes, coin treasury company convertible notes, I was in where meta planet is following in the steps.

So we're a where where branding a big one treasury company. Um uh and so I think that that world rate is going to be convertible. Note the issue was back by B, T, C.

That risk profile very, very different, right? You want five percent of the big coin downside, but fifty percent of the upside. That's a pretty strong risk fo corporate B2C com pany, big, big quent treasury company convertible notes.

Well, on the other side, you involve these banks, right, that are just going to a begin to cut bitcoin. We think in in twenty twenty five, well, what are they think that to study at? No thanks.

The banks on the business of lending, right? So once big one, as he gets tranto this world of a finance, you know the the hyper financialization of bitcoin is hyper Bonnier ation, right if you know getting bitcoin on the exercise of the global baLance ah efficient in sufficient size tanging at the global, you know the the the waves of liquidity, this this is hyper baconians ation um and so you know I think the like we work cloud months in, if that maybe nine months in to the institutionalize ation like we had twenty twenty to twenty twenty four but that would IT was still not touch ble to like the the the suits wall street you know you were in a suit but the point is like I think that you know the big money right that the trillions of ours of capital are now finally at the gate right? And so in a bitcoin IT was crypto high flying, you know kind of hot money if we did.

We had kind of four years of cyp to big coin equities coin base. The miner's microstrip gy were in the early stages of bitcoin and fixed income, and that's the biggest capital pool in the world, right? So you're going to be able to use the coin to get a mortgage and you're going to be able to use the coin to borrow at J.

P. Morgan. You're going to be able to, you know, the underwriters, a big one. Convertible notes, like all these things have yet to come. And uh, you know I think it's profoundness goodish.

Um so that's kind how have you ten ten years out is that we're going to have a bunch of companies on a big coin standard. I think B, T, C yield is a benchmark for a lot of big point for companies. Um it's it's clear that the the the fixed income world has an insatiable demand for this, and I don't think that stops anytime soon. Uh and so yeah, I think that you know that these are the big leagues and you know it's still it's .

still early days in thirty seconds or less. Tell us what is the metal planet pitch metal .

planet pitches. We are the only biton treasury company in japan and um you know we are doing everything we can to increase uh B T super shares of court A Q three. We big one perfect little chair with forty one percent in and q four so far as one hundred fifty five percent. Um so we are now we are going to delete as fast as possible to a creep value to sharer holders. And uh, we've I think we are early days of the execution, so we're excited .

that is fantastic. And doing working with some people to find .

you on yeah i'm mostly active on twitter so had to the under score doing mea planets and few other things. So um yeah I appreciate appreciate come on prop them in a while at least a year. Um so appreciate your time. And um yeah really is excited to maybe maybe guys talk to the talk to the team of heart and you know the energy dealer role turns into A A bit coin role as well.

And I think that um you're all over this. I think that you are on the right side of history and I feel like you and I can be talking a lot more as as all this starts to a get exciting here in this world market. I appreciate time and that would have you again soon .

appreciate a tears.

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