#104. Andy Boreham: At What Cost?
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All right, do you want a little bit more whiskey? No, no, no, no, no. I'm good. I'm good. Really? I'm good. I gotta get the fuck out of there waiting for me for dinner. Oh, shit. Okay. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. And that was a really fun episode we just did there, wasn't it? That was pretty crazy. We go down the rabbit hole. We go in deep.

And we really talk about, this one probably will be very controversial. I think so. I mean, we definitely stood on our pedestal, shared our opinions, whether you like it or not. Oh, yeah. All of us have. We looked down on a lot of people on this one, for sure. Our guest, though, our guest was amazing. Awesome.

Our guest works for Shanghai Daily, and he runs his own channel called Reports on China. The Chinese name is 外媒看中国, and it's really been getting a lot of steam lately. And the whole kind of premise of his channel is analyzing and breaking down the way Western media reports on China. And we really talk about China. We talk about U.S. and that whole dynamic. We talk about a lot of sensitive hot button issues, politically, political correctness, and focus in on media.

But at what cost? But at what cost? And we'll get into that as we get into the episode. Oh, yeah. But it was a really fun one. We go really in-depth, and it was just a lot of fun to have. Let's do this. All right. So without further ado, please give it up for Andy Borum. ♪

All right. Well, cheers, Andy. Cheers. Thanks for having me. Welcome to the show, man. What do you think? It's good.

So what's this? I've got some gifts for you guys actually. My new show, Reports on China. I have some really cool... How do you say in English? Merchandise. So this is like my revolutionary pencil case. I think it's pretty cool. That's awesome.

And I have... Oh, I need to obviously... Ooh, merch. Now, this stuff I haven't even announced yet on my own channel. Ooh. So we're getting the first dibs on this. This is my little retro... The Moshwana fake news finder kit. Fake news finder kit. You should have a magnifying glass in here. That's actually a good idea, but I think fake news is more obvious. But the ruler says, but at what cost? I don't know if you guys... That's awesome. You know the but at what cost thing? No. But at what cost? It's like the Western media, when they need to...

Publish positive China stories They often add this At the end of the title Like they'll say China Crushes Delta But at what cost And it's like They want to add A negative angle to it So everyone makes fun Of but at what cost On Twitter now China locks down Because of quarantine But at what cost And there was another one That was like China supports African development But at what cost Yeah That's so true That is so true So it's on the ruler as well

This is awesome. This merch. This is what we should have been doing with The Honest Drink. You guys don't need merch. No. We should. Let me know. I'll help you design it. Oh, great. Thank you. You know how much this costs to make? How much? Two kuai.

For a whole set. Really? I think we should really look into it. Yeah, we should look into it. We really should. The pencil has the logo on top. The rubber, everything. This is awesome. This is like five kuai. This is like eight kuai. All right, Honest Drinkers, what kind of merch do you guys want? Leave it in the description below. Exactly. All right, Andy. I guess you started mentioning Reports on China is your channel, right? It's my new thing, yeah. Your new thing. So let's give people...

a little bit of a brief background on you. How did you get into this? Where did you start? What's your journey been like? In terms of media, I've been interested in media since I was a little kid, actually. So when I was about...

I think I started a street newspaper where I report. It was funny. There was some negative stories from one of our neighbors who apparently hit one of the local kids or whatever. So I did a big report on it and I was like, we can't mention who it is. There was no parents coming to the door saying, who is it? Who is it? And turned into this big scandal. So I've always been really into news media. And in fact, in school, when we had those school elections, I always ran the school paper and,

And this is all back in New Zealand, right? In New Zealand. And then when I was about 11, I bought my first video camera, started making movies all the time, started a TV channel, bought a video sender, started a TV channel when I was like 15, broadcasting out my crappy little movies. Wow. And then started a national magazine, newspaper it was in the beginning. When I was 19, that was available like...

Around New Zealand. It lasted for about four years. It's tough finding advertisers. When I was 18, I went to film school. Didn't start university until I was 28. I did media, political science and Chinese.

And then basically got hooked on the China side of things. Really interested in Chinese media. Why? Because it's different to New Zealand. New Zealand is always on the top of the list as one of the freest medias. When we say free media, we mean separate from government. In China, obviously, as everyone knows, the media is like...

It's owned by the government. So it's like the opposite side. And also New Zealand's population is tiny. So China's is huge. I just feel like they're two completely different countries. Completely opposite side of the spectrum. Exactly. So I was really interested. Then I...

Did four, studied at four Chinese universities. Three were Chinese language for like a semester. And then did my master's here at Fudan. Then started working at Shanghai Daily. What's that been like?

It's really good. In the beginning, though, I started polishing articles because all our reporters, Shanghai Daily, if people don't know, it's an English language newspaper. But most of the reporters are Chinese. So you've been doing like grammar checks? Yeah, in the beginning. Reference? Yeah. And some video stuff, but mainly it was sitting at a desk all day fixing articles, which was really boring. Was there a lot of fixing that needed to be done most of the time? Actually, it's interesting because the problem is,

they write too well. Like one example that I remember is, oh, we just say heart attack, but they called it, what do you call it? Pulmonary infarction. They use like the scientific term, right? Yeah. And I was like, what is that? And I had to look it up. So actually you've got to bring their writing back to plain English. I think that's the main thing. But then I kept doing that for two years, I think, and was doing video at the same time. And then slowly, yeah,

into just doing my own stuff, which started last year. That's awesome. Yeah, it's pretty cool. You know, it's funny because when I first came to China, I was in ICS in Shanghai. Oh, I know. You know ICS, right? And so I was at first, I was like hosting a show. Do you remember that? I don't know if you remember that, right? Well, you used to host an MTV show too, didn't you? No, no, no. Were you on MTV or something like that? No, no, no. Why do I, why is that in my mind? I don't know. Okay. I don't know.

Another guy. Yeah, so I would host ICI show, but a lot of things were written for me. Oh, right. So I would get it, and I would have to polish it. Same thing like you. And I would look at it, and there would be maybe some grammar issues here and there. But exactly, it's very...

It's just a lot of very professional words. Too formal. Very formal. It's not colloquial. It's not how people actually talk naturally. And so I would be racking my brain. I'm like, okay, I got to really make this more colloquial. It's like the King's English they did learn. I feel like...

For English, with English media, we prefer plain English. Like it's got to be accessible. We say accessible all the time. But I think with Chinese official documents and stuff, it's the harder, the better. They feel like it has to be like completely...

- I have a theory on this too though, okay? I wonder what you guys think. I have a theory on this. I think it's easier for them obviously to do the more formal, proper English. And I think they encourage that because it's also easier for them to look up. - In a dictionary. - Yeah, because if we use something like a slang or a reference or-- - Maybe not there. - Yeah, like it'll be hard for them to look that up in a dictionary because it might not be there, right?

But if they use something very formal, that will be in the dictionary. And if they don't understand something, they can look it up and get the direct translation of it. I mean, that's my theory. Could be. I think I'm onto something. Sometimes I just wonder if they grab the dictionary and they're just like...

Yeah, maybe. Because sometimes it's words I've never even heard before. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, I'm learning English. Their English is actually better than ours, really. For sure. In terms of written English. For sure. And some grammar as well. Yeah, yeah. In terms of written English, the Chinese English is actually better than ours.

Yeah, so that's the thing. I think we need to, with the thing with Chinese media is not so much just also translating the language, it's also translating the culture. Like we prefer simple, more colloquial news. It's not so formal. Yeah, yeah. Well, look, this is going to stem into a much larger topic we can get into because I'm really excited to talk to you.

Oh? Yeah. Oh? You know, based on the content you make, I've been going off and I've been beating a dead horse about this in terms of my personal opinions and issues with media and how information is kind of corrupted these days in a way. And also how that affects, I think, a lot of our beliefs about other countries, other cultures, other people. And...

I want to really, I guess with Shanghai, I mean, reports on China, right? So is that under the Shanghai Daily umbrella? It's part of my job, but we post separately. So do you have full creative control over that? Yeah. Okay. In fact, a lot of my content, this reports on China, my boss didn't want to do it.

to begin with. He was like, it sounds really boring. I said, let me do one and I'll show you and see how you think, what you think about it. And he was happy. So how did you pitch him this idea? Like, what was your pitch? Basically, because I think it's best if you write or create content about things you know. So media and politics is my background. So it's something I've always wanted to talk about. So I wanted to kind of

use a political angle but aimed more at media reports on china um so i just i think i found some kind of example story that i wanted to break down or analyze on the show and he was like sounds boring so it was um once he saw that people liked it he was pretty happy but in terms of the content and everything i write about or a film about is just whatever i find because um

How do I put it? Because this stuff doesn't have to be posted on Shanghai Daily, it's all posted overseas. There's not so much controls, I guess. Okay. Well, that's good then. That's good for you. Gives you a lot more freedom. Yeah. I mean, we post it in China as well, but sometimes we have to do different versions. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Depending. For sure. So, okay. I think there's kind of two things at play, right? In terms of

the general umbrella or theme of kind of maybe where we want to start with this conversation is that number one i feel politics and media are like so intertwined now they're inseparable right definitely and with media i don't believe that any of the major media outlets are any kind of they're not like spitting facts anymore it's all opinionated yeah it's all opinionated

And we somehow hold on to this belief that major news outlets are these infallible vessels of truth, which is not at all true anymore. And I think the gap between independent content creators and major news outlets is shrinking. I think that gap is shrinking. And I am not so quick to believe that.

you know, the mainstream media anymore. And we've had conversations about this, and I think we all feel this way. And I feel like there's so much misunderstanding, whether it's intentional or not, about China. And what compounds that issue is, and this is my critique of China, is that I think

this country does a terrible job at kind of communicating outwardly, right? They do a great job at communicating within the country. But in terms of, I think outwardly, I don't think they do a good enough job. And I think that's where people like you come in. And I think that's the value of kind of what you add is you give people

a voice and a relatable voice and you do it in a way where people can absorb the information better? Well, I hope so. But I think it's like what I was saying before. A lot of Chinese outwards, that word's coming in my mind. Why, Shrentz?

I don't want to say propaganda, outward communications. They're just translating the language. So they have the source material and then they're like, oh, we need to send this to English readers. And they don't translate the culture or reframe the content in a way that is more accessible to other cultures. So I think that's where foreigners come in. And so that's why I hope I can help out a little bit, but I'm still not sure. Yeah.

Well, I think you're doing a great job. Your channel is picking up a lot of steam lately, right? I feel like it is. I hope it keeps going. So what would you say is the real genesis or real, I guess, purpose behind your channel? I guess just to show people that, like you said before, the Western mainstream media really...

its opinion it can't really be trusted on these kind of issues and people need to people really need to look behind um and try and figure out motivations of uh media um you can not just western media any media like if you're reading an article from the global times you need to keep in your mind who wrote it you know what i mean and try to weave read between the lines yeah but i think the problem with the west um well actually it's getting better as people like you said they've

They felt like Western media, like New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, were like infallible sources of truth. And I think more and more people now are realizing that's absolutely not the case. I feel like maybe it was from Trump, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think? I think it started before Trump. I just think that with...

Just the natural progression of technology and access. Social media. Social media, right? Access. You'll have a higher degree of...

I mean, for lack of a better description, manipulation or control, right? Over people's reaction to, you know, whatever you're communicating. And with that type of control, you have power, right? And then with power, then you have agendas and whatnot. And I mean, I hate talking like this, but I had a conversation maybe like a few months ago with a friend who's very... In America. And he's very...

politically entrenched with American values. And basically, when I talk shit about, let's say, the New York Times, which I used to read all the time and trusted, and now I question sometimes what they say because I've seen...

and some of the stuff that they've written about. And you're like, what are you talking about? They're professional reporters. What are you talking about? You know, how would you even listen to that YouTuber or whatever, right? It's like, you know, I'm like, well, yeah, but there's literal debunks. Like, you know, why wouldn't you even put that into consideration? Oh, that's bullshit. You know, that's so easy to manipulate. I'm like, just like they can manipulate the news. So, I mean, I just think in general, it's easier. We always say over here,

being from America but now living in China, it actually helped us be able to view things a little bit more, I guess, differently.

A little more balanced in a way because we're not entrenched in America. We're not entrenched with the same messaging nonstop. We're outside that bubble. Yeah. And then, but you can see on the flip side that we're here and we're entrenched with the Chinese media. Yeah. But we're not because we're not always reading the Chinese media. So, so I think that's the, the, the balance that I'm trying to keep in my eyes from a more distant view, watching the news or reading the news.

I just feel like lately there's been so many examples that you could look at with US media that shows one-sided and political. For example, I don't know if we can talk about the BLM riots. If you want to publish something and say, actually, I think maybe they went a bit over the top. You really couldn't publish it in New York Times or Washington Post. If you wanted to say, yeah, I support gay people, but I really think children...

Need a mother. So I think maybe two women's okay, two men. You couldn't say that either. You'd be chased out of your job. So a lot of people, they believe China has this huge censorship, but I actually think censorship in the US, particularly in Western countries, um,

it can be a whole lot more pervasive because you can lose family, family, friend, family members and friends if you have the wrong view. And the same now with vaccinations, anti-vax people that you can bust up whole families on these lines. And that's happening daily. So I really feel like with China, you know,

China, you know, media in China is under the government. So we know what we're getting. It's clearly spelled out. But in the US, you have all these media working for different factions. Then you have Silicon Valley, who's not elected by anybody. And they decide so much information that you're receiving as well. So I think actually, I would say the situation in the US for me is quite scary at the moment. Yeah, we brought this idea up on the show before, the idea of

explicit censorship versus implicit censorship, right? And in China, we have explicit censorship, right? Everyone knows that that exists here. So we're all kind of on the same page with that, right? There's no secrets, there's no surprises in terms of that. But in other countries,

Taking the States as an example, there's a very strong culture of implicit censorship, right? Like what you're saying. So kind of society, corporations, your coworkers, the people around you kind of dictate what is allowed to be said and what isn't allowed to be said. And God forbid you say something that is not really jiving with the- - Current thinking. - Yeah, current thinking at the time. Then like you say, you can be a complete outcast. You can lose your job. You can even lose your family.

things i think consequences are far worse than here where your your your video just gets taken down you know and i think with china as well there's clearly spelt out guidelines like the things you just shouldn't touch you know like you know in china you shouldn't produce any content that's likely to cause division among the ethnic groups or things like that so you just don't i think there's like seven topics um you

Better just not cover. Well, it's kind of common sense now if you're living here, like where the boundaries are. And apart from that, you know, you're pretty free to say whatever you want. You know what I mean? So I think people really, especially in terms of Chinese media, people outside, I think they feel that working for Chinese media is a lot more exciting than it actually is. It's actually not that exciting. We don't have meetings of people saying, you can't say that. Here's your propaganda class for the day. There's nothing exciting.

Like that it's actually, sometimes I let them believe it because it sounds more exciting. Yeah, I think this is a great chance for you to just like dispel that myth, right? Because you actually work in the media. I mean, look, I think, you know, I want to bring it back a little bit because I feel like we're going a little bit too far on that one side now. Because like, I mean, let me put it this way. You're just saying that how like over here, you know, we're all kind of in unison, right?

having that knowledge of what not to talk about, what to talk about. In terms of what is expected, not that everyone agrees or likes that here. I mean, there are people who are very annoyed and frustrated with the censorship here, for sure. That's another thing. People think that Chinese people are this one group that are all like... Like a monolith. We all like the government, but we all like this decision, this decision. But there's just as many different views here as there is anywhere else. And that's why I think people, the way they look at Chinese, they're actually quite...

Racist? I mean, I don't like using the word racist, but they really look down on Chinese as if they're this controlled group. But you have stronger people here than I've ever met in my life, really, in my work. So...

I think people really need to come to China or, you know, find Chinese friends. That's probably the way to do it. That's, that's the key. I mean, just like we can talk all day, right? And then people can either believe us or not believe us or whatever it is. And they can go on, hop on all the video sites and Reddit and whatever sites they want to go on to get their news. But nothing, nothing,

beats actually coming here and living here. And just seeing for yourself, like forget what we say, come here, spend some time here and see for yourself. Right. And that's, I mean, much easier said than done. I think a lot of people wouldn't even be willing to. Exactly. That's the sad thing. Yeah. I want to piggyback on that for a second because like, I want to see what you think about this. Because,

I don't know how you felt when you first came here, but when I first came here, you know, being an American but Chinese background, I would have a lot of comments from people that, let's say, were less internationally traveled or whatever, and

And they may be like, oh, you don't look American or things like that, or give these sort of generalities of what America stands for or whatever. Oh, you must eat steak, you know, like that kind of stuff. Right. And so, but you can just give that to ignorance or accessibility. It's not a negative thing. It just means that they didn't, they had not had their eyes opened. Right.

Now, you can flip that around to the West as well, right? Because now if you look at, if you talk to somebody or even just maybe scroll through some comments, if there's a negative thing about China, what is, like, I notice a lot of comments being like, well, their social credit score must be going down. You know what I mean? And I'm like, Jesus Christ, like,

That one comment just shows that they're also in that ignorant bubble. Exactly. And that's what I think. Like I see people comment, they try to argue with you online and they say stuff like that. Like you're a CPC shill. Your credit score just went up, just went down. I'm like, because you said that, I know you know nothing. Yeah. It's just pathetic. The credit score thing. I don't even know where they use that. I think someone, some city wanted to try it as a test or something. It was, it was,

it was a headline okay this is i'm not i didn't do much research on this but this is what i believe it to be um i know there was a viral video and a headline that came out in the west a while ago and it was mentioning this idea of china testing out this like social credit score thing because what they saw in this video was um like cctv cameras right and it was doing like

like facial recognition thing, but really it's just camera tracking, right? So they have these boxes over everyone's face on the street, right? It's, it's a common image that I think a lot of people have already seen. And then there was these numbers associated with them. And this whole idea of the social credit score, um, came from that idea, I think kind of spread like wildfire. Hmm.

There were towns that were testing it. And there are, I mean, the people have had limited, for example, buying power in terms of like, let's say, booking a flight or whatever because they... But do we know that for sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For your first hand experience? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also heard that there's an opt-in system because some people who...

have good virtues or whatever. No, that's a joke. They want to get more points and it helps you. For example, if you rent a house, you don't have to pay deposit or something, but it's an opt-in. I think it's to do with Ant Financial. I'm not sure, but it did get out of hand. But actually, when I think about the credit score system, I quite like it. Do you? Yeah, because in New Zealand, for example, if someone rips somebody off, like goes to an old lady's house and says, do you want to buy this? $700. Yeah.

they get a slap on the wrist and it doesn't affect their life. But if you could limit their ability to buy a train ticket or go on a plane like they're proposing they did with this credit score system, I think it would actually be a good idea.

I don't know if that's a good thing. Do we have any idea about how widely used, if at all, it's really being used throughout the country? Well, I don't know. Before you were talking about they were testing it out, is it actually been adopted? Yeah, in smaller towns. Is it like a thing now? Just not for... You can ask so many Chinese people and they're like, I've never heard of it. Yeah, most people don't know about it because it was just like, you know, small testing. You know, just like in the States, they do a lot of small testing in towns with UBI and other stuff like that, right? So it's like, it's testing. I mean, who knows what the future holds? I mean...

Are the capabilities there? Sure. You can fall on either side, whether you're supported or not. But it's been tested. I mean, that's a fact. It's just not nationwide. It's not every single freaking person. And hardly anyone knows about it. Do we know if it's been implemented? Has there been anything? Yes, yes, yes. No, you say tested, but it's now implemented in terms of it's a staple part of things? That I don't know. In terms of certain apps, like Ant Financial, like if you want to borrow money and stuff.

They'll have a credit score system But that's the same thing in the West I don't know about New Zealand But in America You have a credit card And a credit score Yeah Same thing

Yeah, but I don't think it's anywhere near as widespread as they say. But I think like you said, it's the future. Like people like to see place China is like this sci-fi dystopia. Yeah, so they like to think of anything bad that you could think of and be like China's doing it. Yeah, well, they have their go-to topics, right? And we can list them off. But like once you know that they're going to these kind of like these keywords that they'll raise, right?

you know that they're just kind of regurgitating what they've been fed in the media. And they've probably never set foot a day in the country. Here's what kind of bothers me a little bit, right? And because all this other stuff, it's kind of to be expected. And we can get into like what you might feel, Andy, are the bigger forces at play behind this. But,

What I see going on is I see this phenomenon, this kind of cognitive dissonance happening where I'll listen to like, let's say podcasts in the United States as an example. You know, I'll listen to people, people who I know are extremely intelligent, well thought out, very analytical, open-minded people, right? Right.

And they can go in such beautiful detail and use such objective thinking when it comes to things happening domestically, right? Let's say things about their stance on the vaccines or the pandemic or political issues within the United States, right? BLM, whatever, race, everything.

And they can look at it and break it down so beautifully and so thoughtfully and care for both sides. But every time, and this is something I've noticed, every time the idea of China comes up or what in their eyes China stands for, whether it's socialism, communism, these kind of keywords pop up.

It seems like all of a sudden, all that thoughtfulness is completely throughout the trash. And they, just like the people they criticize on other topics, go right into this automatic, it's almost like a reflex of, yes, well, of course China's that way. Who wants to be China? We're not China. You know, those kind of words, right? And it's...

It's almost like a reflex where they're not exercising the same critical thinking that they're applying to a lot of domestic issues, but to foreign places and foreign events. And to me, it's like this cognitive dissonance that's occurring with a lot of really smart people. And I'm wondering if you see that happening and how you feel about that. I see it happening in the media as well in the US because people who support Trump, they're like...

fake news, the mainstream media is all against us and they don't believe anything the media says. But then as soon as the media says something about China, they're like, oh, but didn't you see? And they'll share the news. And I'm like, can't you keep the same level? You guys are really openly critical about any other thing to do with the news media. But as soon as it comes to something like China, it's

It's just suddenly believe straight away. So I think it's pretty scary, especially like, as you said, it's people who are usually really smart and the views and the nuanced views they have on issues domestically, um, they will attack other people for not seeing it the way they see it. Like, Oh, you, you just haven't thought about both sides, blah, blah, blah, blah. But as soon as it comes to China, they just rely heavily on this, um,

It's the same narrative. It's the same narrative all the time. And they believe a lot of things from China, even without evidence. It's like they believe it in their core. Like I have some New Zealand friends who are usually quite smart, but they just take all this and I'm like, but there's what you're saying. There's literally no evidence. Like there's actually been reports coming out, debunking this stuff over and over and over again. Of course, no one picks it up, but they're just like,

Yeah, well, maybe they don't have evidence, but of course it's happening. I'm like, are you serious? Listen to yourself. Like, it's terrible. It's really scary. I think nowadays, especially with social media, the world is like fragmented into different realities. Like some people can believe something so wholeheartedly to be true. And another person, another group can believe something the complete opposite and they both live inside that reality. And to them, to each person,

it's a reality that is fact. Exactly. Infallible. Yeah, infallible. And I also feel like that, I mean, one of the reasons why I would say these objective thinkers that you just said, both of you, may fall into that trap of kind of

becoming one-sided again or just like spinning out what they ingest is because it's international. You know, it's because they're not in, like, they're not standing in the soil here, you know? Really living day to day and understanding and being able to, because that's how we come from, that's where we come from, right? We live here and we can read these lines and be like, hmm, that doesn't sound so right, you know? I mean, I feel like if that was happening, we would kind of know about it or whatever, you know? Let's say social credit score. We're like, hmm,

Never heard of it. I mean, I read an article about it. Somehow our lives will be affected by it. Yeah. You know, or whatnot, right? Because we're here. That becomes major talking points for us. That is our BLM. That is our, you know, anti or not vaccine, you know?

So I think that's what it is. Just like if something came in with New Zealand and I would just regurgitate something that I probably read somewhere, and then you'd be like, well, no, that's not how it is. Then I'd be like, well, I don't know. I don't know enough about it. But the scary thing with that kind of thing is people will...

For example, people who I know back in New Zealand will send me these news reports and they're like, oh, so what do you have to say about this? And I'm like, it's just not the reality. Like you said, it's just completely disjointed from what our lives are here. Like we would know, but they will believe what they read. Yeah.

Usually Above someone they've known For 20 years They say Oh you're inside the system now So you've been brainwashed It's like Do you really think that low Of me You've gotten that? Have you gotten that? All the time I've gotten that You too have gotten your brainwashed? I've gotten that From my closest friends Like Howie I mean you've been living there For like over 10 years So I don't blame you What?

That's harsh I got the We're worried about We're just worried about you Recently Because I posted something On Facebook They were like Yeah but your brother Went on Google And found some other stuff And so We're just worried about you I was like Are you serious Like it's so condescending But I think that's the way It's going to get worse and worse Because I feel like The

I hate that word. The information drive against China is just increasing as it gets more powerful. It's strong. That's strong. And I think that's the basis of it, to be honest. The West and the US in general just can't handle the idea that

somebody who doesn't kowtow to them is going to, you know, surpass them. But there's a whole nother story. Yeah. It's the antithesis of what democracy is. The pitting against democracy versus communism, right? Yeah. And that's kind of a fabricated kind of

war or battle kind of perpetrated, I believe, you know, starting from like the Cold War, the original Cold War and this idea of the domino theory and this fear. Like it goes back to fear and there's so much fear mongering.

And I think that's really the most obvious thing about a lot of what these Western media outlets do. And just to clarify, when I say Western media outlets, I'm talking about the big ones. So it's usually America and its allies. So you have America, you have Canada, you have Australia, you have the UK, right? And they have very powerful media outlets and very wide coverage. More famous. Yeah, but they're all kind of allied in terms of

In terms of media, I guess. Not necessarily always the people, but in terms of the media, their kind of political stance when it comes to China and their views. Well, that's kind of something that unites left and right or Democrats and Republicans at the moment is their hate of China. Like when it comes to, you know, passing those, they passed a bill recently, it was like unanimous.

I was like, wow, so China can bring the US together. That's pretty good. Do you think in your heart that whoever's behind the media outlets, whoever's controlling them, even the government itself, is using that attribute of human nature to kind of try to bring the country together?

Right? Because when you give them a common enemy, all of a sudden all the other stuff seems smaller and they band together. And that can only serve in the US interests. Otherwise they'd be just continuously divided. It sounds like a good idea, but I think if they were trying to do that, it's not working. Because I feel like from the outside looking, I don't know about you guys being from the States, but I feel like New Zealand, not New Zealand, America's on the verge of civil war. I feel like there's...

It's just cutthroat. So I don't think it would actually work to bring anybody together. No, it's still really divided there. I mean, extremely divided. See, I don't know because I'm just looking at media. So probably I'm... Yeah, exactly. Are we in our bubble? And maybe if you go there, they're not that divided. Totally different. Yeah. But do we know? Well, I mean, through conversations of people on the ground there. You know? I'm still feeling... I mean, obviously...

uh well maybe obviously to us uh being from new york city right so when talking with new york city friends um a lot of them generally be like oh yeah the country's kind of fucked and like it's really divided but you know over here we're okay you know it's all good but if you talk to somebody from let's say a little bit more in the midwest or maybe some smaller smaller states or cities maybe it's a little bit different i don't know right i don't know

I don't know. I just feel like the way, and this is obviously speculation, but just through my own thinking, I feel like the way the American system is set up, like the real American system behind the scenes and the people who have the real power, the way things are set up is that America always needs an enemy. And they always need to encourage fear to the population about reinforcing the idea that this is the enemy and insisting

like insisting that you have this enemy and it goes back forever. I mean, South America, Cuba, Russia, Vietnam, the Middle East, now China, right? Like every era, there has to be this enemy and kind of like the fate of the universe hangs on their battle. On the US defense budget. You know, winning over this enemy, right? Yeah.

And if you break that down, it almost kind of makes sense in terms of where you see most of the money going towards. Like you just mentioned, the defense budget, military spending, the entire military industrial complex. - NED. - And by far, that's where the money is going, right? It's not even a discussion. - Not even close. - It's not even close. So when you see that, obviously there's financial incentives for people

for the masses to fear somebody and believe that you were constantly under this threat. It's funny because you can actually see it through Hollywood movies. Like in every era there's whatever the current enemy was in real life. Enemy, if

It will be shown in movies. Yeah. Well, that's the US propaganda, right? Yeah, exactly. And it's such propaganda. Like when that film in China came out, Wolf Warrior. Have you guys seen it? It's really about, you know, Chinese forces go and save some African. Was it a real African nation? I don't know. Fictional. Anyway, the US were like crying over it. Like, this is such propaganda. But like, have you seen Independence Day and all those movies? Like, it's so, like, I never thought about it back then, but. Mm-hmm.

When they level these accusations against China, it really makes me see, you know, they're just leveling accusations about things they do themselves. Well, I mean, us growing up in the States when we were younger, how many films, action films did you watch where the enemy was some Russian like... Exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like bad dude. Middle Eastern, Russian, whatever it was. Yeah. They're either some communist country. German. Or some third world country. Right. Right.

And it's always the hero coming in to save the day. It's the same thing as Wolf Warrior. I laugh when I saw Wolf Warrior. I'm like, wow, the tables have turned. Because it's equally over the top. You have to just watch it as a popcorn flick. It's just over the top. You're obviously building up that nation's pride. Same thing when Rambo is going out. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're building up the American pride. But this idea of

of China's presence in Africa is also something that's been cycling through the headlines of Western media as well. And it kind of points back to like, you're kind of this logo on this card, like, but at what cost? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So like, it's the narrative and how you paint that narrative, right? So on one side, you know, the narrative is China's going in, helping build this infrastructure, pouring all this money and helping the Africans with clean water, everything, right? In terms of healthy and sustainable infrastructure.

And on a lot of the Western media side, they paint it as, they don't ignore that they're going in and spending a lot of money, but they're like, okay, well, what is their real motive? What is their real incentive, right? And it's almost kind of this sinister spin to everything.

And when you break it down, it's kind of silly to do that because every country ever in human existence going somewhere and having their presence somewhere has always had some sort of gain from themselves. It has to have. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. No country has ever done anything purely out of altruism. It's the same as individual people. Most people, if they help you, it's because they're getting something out of it, whether it's a good feeling or whatever. But the thing with...

Africa and the thing people don't understand is I think China you know needs to have friends around the world to supply 1.4 billion people with things so in terms of China's eyes like the world needs to be stable and connected and I think that's all there is to it like that's why they're building infrastructure making sure these lines are open communication trade and

To be honest, I really find it quite disheartening that people believe the crap. Like what do they say now? Debt trap diplomacy and all this. Like China's purposely in dating these nations to try and gain political favor. If you just look into it for five minutes and think rationally, you'll see that it's just stupid. I think the biggest thing is that, I mean, let's, let's give some like major differences in terms of your perspective and one's perspective. Um,

Right. So just like you say, and I agree with you in terms of what we can see, what China is doing in terms of developing other nations, like developing, like let's catch up, let's go, you know, as opposed to, I mean, what has America done to develop other countries?

No, I'm serious. I'm serious. I mean, as an American, I do ask myself, like, you know, or is it more about, like, trying to keep them at a certain level? I think that's what it is. But, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think they're trying to keep the world order how it is. Yeah. Especially if they don't want other powers to rise up. Yeah. I feel like. Well, if you look at how many military bases, US military bases are spread around the world versus how many Chinese military bases are spread around the world. South China Sea. Yeah.

That's another... So it's endless because I think it's a...

It's like a Ferris wheel. It's a revolving door of topics, right? So if it's not this today, it's another issue. Something else, yeah. And there's always going to be something. And there's no effort at all, and I'm not whining about this. Obviously, this is going to be the way it is. It's reality. But there's no effort at all to kind of highlight anything positive, right? Because obviously, that's not the narrative. And they just add, but at what cost? Yeah. But I guess, you know,

When you said that, you know, if you just did five minutes of research, you would find out the truth. Or even five minutes of thinking, but yeah. Yeah, but I can throw that right back at you because it's also just as easily to spend five minutes going down the wrong rabbit hole and you would be going down the completely opposite direction. And I think that's what a lot of people have done, leading them to have the beliefs that they do. But it's also the idea of social proof, right? When you're living in a society where everyone is saying that,

you're gonna hold it as gospel. You're gonna hold that as for you. - That's for sure. - And that's just human nature. If everyone around us, everyone is saying the same thing, has the same opinion, you're gonna have that opinion. It's gonna be very hard for you to be the one person to kind of break out of that thinking. - Or you'd be an outlier. - Yeah. - Yeah, it wouldn't be the common. - No. But I guess, Andy, after all the content you've been making and your own, I guess, personal thinking and thought about all this,

You know, we're talking about the media. What do you think is the bigger picture here in terms of, do you believe there are forces we don't know about at play behind this? Do you feel it's orchestrated in some way or do you feel it's not and it's just kind of happens to be the...

the way it is now? I think it's really complicated. That's the easiest answer. I think there are forces in the background, but I think there's also, you know, you have like NED and stuff like that trying to push governments around the world to do what the US wants. But I also feel like there's some people working in media that actually just believe it. So I think that's really scary. I think lately we've been talking about these so-called China Watches.

I think there's two kinds. Like the first kind is the people that really believe China is this bad place. They believe it wholeheartedly. So when they produce this negative content and, you know, try to make people see China as a threat, it's because they think they're doing something virtuous, which is scary. Then I think there is another type, which is more like they know that it's crap.

but they know that this kind of content is really popular. Like a lot of the time people, they want to read and consume media that they already believe that is going to boost their beliefs. So I feel like since a lot of people in the West already believe China is this dystopian nightmare, they love to consume that kind of content. So I think it's probably a mix. I think there's definitely forces in the background. Obviously people who don't want to see America take second place, who have vested interests, right?

But of course I don't have any evidence. Yeah. You know, going back to the idea of these journalists or, you know, oftentimes you'll hear a headline will come out on a media platform and it'll say something and then it'll be like, according to sources or sources say, or reportedly this is what happened. And it was their friend who reported it. Exactly. And so there's, there's, there's a lot of things we can pick apart with that. Number one,

It's actually having very little journalistic integrity just to go off. It's like spreading a rumor because you don't know if it's true. You know that it was reported. That's why they have to put reportedly this is or sources say, and by sources say, meaning someone said it. That's all it is. And that gives them kind of carte blanche to kind of just run with it and put it on the 24-hour news cycle.

And meanwhile, many of the times these sources, I'm putting air quotes, are just, it's just a person and they're not fact-checked.

So that's how media does it, especially in the US. Because I think, like you said before, the media, especially in the last 30 years in the US, has turned more opinion. It's not really about facts. It's more about opinion. So they do this. They find other people with a similar opinion to then have an impetus to create this kind of content. Because obviously, as a reporter, you can't say it yourself. Like,

China's doing this. You have to say reportedly or sources or whatever. But what they do is they find people who already boost what they're trying to say. And a lot of the time also with New York Times, speaking of journalistic integrity, there's

There's just no balance. Like when I was learning journalism, it was all about balance. You need to, you know, equally showcase both sides and let the reader decide. These stories, I don't know if you guys have seen, but in New York Times, Washington Post, it's so unbalanced. There's like no positive China voices. Well, they'll throw one or two in here and there. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think it's really scary. Like go speak to a Chinese person. Yeah. And oftentimes when, because this is, I guess, maybe less more of a nuance us living here, we can notice, but I guess I think maybe for a lot of people in Western countries, it's something that they don't really understand. And,

that's totally understandable is many times you'll hear like when they do have a Chinese source, let's say, it's usually somebody from Taiwan or Hong Kong. And when you understand the dynamics, you understand that people from these areas are not the most reliable sources of information when it comes to things happening in the mainland. And so that often gets overlooked in itself.

And by the way, I've done a terrible job of trying to stay neutral in this conversation. I know when I was talking to you, I'm like, you know what? I want to try to stay neutral in this type of conversation because I haven't been in the past. But I just get so worked up because I'm so passionate about this because I see it like such a glaring issue that I'm...

I'm honestly worried about because I'm worried about the future and where, where we're headed. And we can talk about that next in terms of where you believe it's headed. But like, it's like, I feel like I'm personally connected to this issue, both because of my identity, where I'm living and just how I think it'll affect me personally in my lives of my family and my children in the future because of all this. So like, I always, I,

I almost do a terrible job of having any neutrality in this type of conversation. But having said that, again, it's this, like you mentioned, Andy, before, it's this idea of people seem so quick to question what they believe in news media now. Like, I know the state's the best, so I'm going to talk about the states, but I'm sure this is happening in other countries as well. And they will deny almost everything

90% of the things that the media is saying. But when it comes to China, it's this automatic belief. Like, well, of course that's the way. And they don't apply that same reasoning to things about China. So my thinking is, if you think that the media can lie to you and spread disinformation about things that they know so well, what's happening in their own country, then

What makes you think that they won't or can't do the same thing when it comes to things that are far more complex and things that they have less knowledge about in terms of their spread of journalists? They're not going to have as many journalists on the ground in China versus in the United States. There's going to be less quality information. There's going to be less information, period. And there's going to be more speculation. So with all that combined, what makes you think that the same level of degree or even more of...

lying or misinformation, disinformation, however you want to label it, isn't happening when it comes to foreign events and topics about foreign countries. - That we read about. - That we read about. - Yeah. - Yeah. - They're probably the same thing. - But like, what spawned you to want to create the content you do? Like, what was the impetus here?

Really? It was my New Zealand friends who didn't believe me. I felt like you're not going to listen to me, so I'm going to tell some other people. So this is kind of like a fuck you to them. I don't know. I feel like it's just my topic of interest. So I really feel like these Western media, it sounds cliche, but these Western media reports on China are,

absolutely don't line up to my life here and what, you know, what I see every single day. Even traveling all around this place, like, I just don't understand, like you said, how people can disconnect so blatantly from, you know, when they look at other topics, they're able to analyze properly and think to themselves, why are they saying this? Could it be untrue? Do I believe that? But every single thing they read about China, they just believe it straight away, except good things. So,

I don't know. I really feel like I'm still figuring out like what kind of, not angle, but what kind of feeling I want to put across with reports on China. Like I don't want to come across too preachy, but I want to, you know, give people information and let them,

see the truth in a kind of not a neutral way but a more um friendly way um i don't know if i'm doing that but um you know i feel like there's a lot of content out there that's like cutthroat people are just like you're wrong you're so stupid i kind of want to be more um you know take a look at this you know look at both sides and you can decide yeah but like ideally i agree that's the way to go but in

The way that I think the information waters have been muddied so much. It's too hard. You can't, it's almost impossible to get your message across going like with a soft approach. Exactly. Because that just doesn't get picked up. It's tough. And the algorithms won't pick it up, you know? So everything is designed to kind of raise the temperatures. Especially Twitter.

Twitter is terrible. I'm not even on Twitter. I refuse to be on Twitter now. Well, I joined like 2009, didn't use it till last year. But it's a battleground. Like if you go on to Twitter with neutral views or, you know, you want to just share happy thoughts, it's not going to work. You have to be black or white, like 100% for this or 100% for that. And you have to have an enemy. So I think you have to be an extremist. Silicon Valley, man. That's where all the problems are coming from.

Well, look, we've talked about this too. The algorithm definitely isn't helping anybody. Yeah. Because while all this is affecting politics, society, culture, and even people's personal lives, on the side, well, not on the sidelines, but behind this, you have a lot of the big tech companies profiting off of all this division. Mm-hmm.

Because it drives everything. It drives more clicks. It drives more interaction. It drives more watch times on their platform. And the algorithm is just eating it up. Eating it up. Well, what kind of audience have you been getting with your content? Because you are on one side. When I look at the comments, it's mostly support, which I feel isn't a good thing. It's like you're saying, I'm not reaching the...

um, the other side I'm preaching to the choir. Um, I don't see it as completely bad because having an audience helps you build more of an audience. But when I do videos or content or tweets that, um, start getting hate, then I really feel like I've succeeded in sort of like burst out of the, um, echo chamber a little bit. Um, so, but as you said, it's always that really, um, cutthroat kind of content. So it's not friendly. Um, um,

In terms of geographics, my biggest audience for YouTube is the US apparently. Then Malaysia, Australia, the UK, New Zealand, blah, blah, blah. But I think at the moment, and I see it as a weak point, the majority of my content and interaction is support of what I'm saying. So I think I need to extend more to haters. You know, it's...

I'm just gonna hop back a little bit with one of the topics with Africa. I remember recently watching this video where it was like, I really forgot which person, YouTube, it was on YouTube, YouTube creator put it out, but basically it was a very negative look at China and China's exposure and influence on Africa. And then I was like flipping through the comments

And I was actually really surprised. I saw it was actually a lot of the opposite views coming in from Africans being like, you got this all wrong. Have you even stepped to Africa before? Do you know what they're doing here? Do you know how much more opportunity we have now as opposed to you Americans coming in and trying to take over our government and this and that, right? And it was...

it became like really i was like whoa it was a lot of that that opposite coming in through the comments which i rarely see because like you said usually either you'll see mostly like support support support a couple people hopping over from the enemy yeah you know what i mean to to leave a message yeah but for this particular video i saw a lot of africans just coming in and then they're they're like i'm in africa you look at their name and whether it's not whether or not it's true or not real or not i don't know but i'm just looking at what i see

CPC shells. Yes, exactly. And I was like, oh, wow. Okay. That was pretty interesting. And it was like literally flooded with a lot of Africans. It can happen. I have noticed before as well. There'd be content online like on YouTube that's, you know, angled more towards negative aspect of China. And they do have a lot of people coming in saying you've got it wrong. So there is hope, I think, because I do really believe fundamentally that people have the wrong idea about China. Like a lot of people say to me,

oh, but of course China's bad and you're helping them. I'm like, what do you mean? Of course China's bad. Like I wouldn't do what I'm doing if I didn't 150% believe, you know, everything I say. So,

I really feel like there could be hope, but I'm not sure it's going to come soon. Yeah. What are some of like, like, I'm just curious you doing what you do coming from a Western country. I mean, what are some of like the biggest, I guess, negative comments or, or from friends, family or whatever that you get, you know, I'm just so curious to hear that. Some of them, some of the most negative ones are from other New Zealanders. They're like, you've sold out. You're not welcome back.

And I'm like, Jesus Christ. Some guy was like, you're a terrible journalist. You're a CPC shill. And he went to my university in Wellington. And he said, I'm ashamed to have gone to the same university as you. And I'm ashamed that we're both New Zealanders. You're not welcome back.

And I was like, whoa, those ones are really cut quite deep. But then, of course, I go and investigate the person and find other reasons. It turned out that guy, this was funny. I shouldn't do this, but I found out he studied journalism and didn't manage to get work in journalism. So I think he's just jealous. Yeah.

And then family and friends. Actually, I lost a friend of 20 years last year because he blames the whole COVID situation on China. And he just launched a travel company before that all happened. So he invested a lot of money. Then he was like, how can you stay living there and supporting China's government when they ruined my life? And I'm like,

whoa, oh my God. And we tried to be friends for like six months. I was like, this is my job. You know, I believe what I'm doing. You shouldn't bring my work into this, but I'll put it aside. We've been friends for so long. So we sort of, um, tried to be friends for like four more months or something. And then every time we found an article or something that was anti China, he would find Reddit posts that were like, Fudan University has cheating professors and your degree is not, uh,

What do you have to say? Like he would send me these articles and be like, what do you have to say about this? And I'm like, I'm not getting into this. Like, this is so stupid. So then in the end, oh, he sent me something about...

the dog eating festival uh yeah he goes look at this this is disgusting and i was like come on it's like hardly any chinese people eat dog yes there's a dog eating festival but then in the end i got so peed off i was like oh it looks really delicious kind of thing and he was like how dare you you know how much i love dogs and he blocked me so we haven't spoken since then yeah i've listened um recently to a lot of pretty big podcasts in the states and

The minute I tune out is when, and this was mentioned, like, I think once or twice in one of these podcasts, was that they took as, like, a given that

that Chinese everywhere eat bats. Like, that's like just a common dish. Like, you can go into a restaurant down the street and get your bat soup. And to them, like, that was completely normal. Like, that was like, that's how it is there. They just eat bats willy-nilly. They'll believe it straight away. And I don't know. Like, I don't know how easy it would be to find a...

a restaurant serving that anywhere. I've never came across that. Same with dog. I'll try it, but did you guys know, like looking at culture, there's an interesting thing because now South Korea, especially with popular culture is a really popular in the U S like you had that, that movie, um,

Squid Game. No, Parasite. The show Squid Game and Parasite, really popular. But actually, yep, K-pop. But actually, you know, in South Korea, they have people who eat dog as well in some places. But you'll never see media pick that up in the US, like when are South Koreans going to stop eating dogs? Because...

But even though it's like a small minority of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure most of the people in South Korea probably look down and shame them. Exactly. Even New Zealand has people who eat dogs. Oh, yeah? Of certain people. So I think it's like they have this propensity to paint 1.4 billion people with this brush, which is...

Quite embarrassing. Hey, there's this city called Shuzhou. Have you guys been there? Shuzhou? Shuzhou. Apparently they eat dog there still, like quite openly, and you can buy it in the supermarket. Really? Yeah. I went there with a friend and I was like, I just want to try, like see what it's like. And he was like, if you're going to eat it, I'm not eating with you. So I didn't

So you never had to try? Well, I'm just curious, yeah, if it's raised just for the meat. Yeah, how do they get the dogs? Are they just grabbing dogs off the street or are they raising them and farming them? It's another cultural thing. We're used to the idea of dogs as pets. So I guess people in the US or New Zealand imagine that these restaurants go and grab a pet off the street and eat it. Well, people have pigs as pets. Well, exactly. And you raise cows just for...

the meat. So if you're raising dogs just for the meat, not that I agree with it, but it sounds like the same thing. Like on paper, like if you, if I have to practice, like,

strictly objective thinking like it kind of does sound the same but like there is something about a dog like i would never eat a dog right like like there's something about man's best friend exactly the way they look at you it's cultural i think yeah of course it's ingrained of course because people say actually um like pigs have just as much like emotion they're smart just as much pain and they're just as intelligent as as a dog or even even more sometimes exactly i went to gansu province recently they love lamb

And we went to a farm that was growing lamb. Well, yeah, I have to say growing lambs because that's what they're doing. They're so cute. Like I couldn't, I was like, should I stop eating lamb after this? But I still, but I think this is going down a whole nother tangent, but I just, I just want to say this before we get off this topic is that, um,

Obviously, I couldn't eat a dog. I could never eat a dog. I personally have not come across anywhere here that a dog was even an option. I know that there are certain places and villages where you can get them. I've never seen it. It's not like a common thing here. But that's why I wanted to bring it up because I feel like we're being very supportive of China. China does have bad aspects.

You know, there is that dog eating festival. A lot of Chinese people are against it and trying to get it banned. But I think, you know, it's perfectly fine to also talk about bad aspects of China. People don't realize that. You have to, because this is something I've noticed too. And it's the idea of consistency. I think when anybody is too consistent, anybody, I mean, it could be a person, it can be a media outlet, right?

Whenever they're too consistent with a message, you have to question it because real life is inconsistent. Real life is always in flux. There's events happening, good and bad. It's all shades of gray. There's a bunch of nuance happening. Events are unfolding in real time. So over a period of time, I think if anyone's message is always so consistent, like anti-China, anti-China, anti-China, whatever, or the reverse, right? Mm-hmm.

You have to question it because if you're always consistent with your message, reality isn't consistent. It's complicated. But what do you think, like, you were talking about you've lost friends over this and people seem, and, you know, I see it in the comment sections too. I don't, I try not, I don't engage, but like,

You see people seemingly, obviously we don't know these people, we don't know what their motives and agendas are, but they seem to be so personally invested and worked up and emotional when it comes to anger, when you say anything positive about China. Where do you think that stems from? To generalize, do you think that stems from because kind of what you alluded to before was

They feel this moral obligation deeply inside them that they are so right and that for one reason or another, they think that this country is so evil that if you were to say something positive, it'd be like saying something positive about Hitler, right? Like, what do you think is behind that, behind people's emotional attachment? Most of these people, I have to assume, don't live here. Yeah.

Yeah. So why do you think that is? I think it comes down to cockiness. And I was the same before I came to China. Like, I just felt like

our way was right, like automatically right. Um, and people just have this idea. And especially since we've had it drummed into us from, you know, day one, that, um, so-called liberal democracy is the way to go. People get to have a say, everyone gets to vote. It's the only way. Freedom, freedom, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, um,

Once you come here, and I think you've got to view China in context. People view it out of context. I have friends in New Zealand that say to me, when you were in New Zealand, you were against the government for doing this, this, and this, and now you're working with the government. But it's like, New Zealand is not China, and China's not New Zealand, and China's not the West. So I think people just have to get out of this idea that their way is correct. Honestly, before I came here, I was like,

How do they tolerate not being able to vote for their leader? They must be so peed off about it. They must be thinking about it every day. But really, it's just not in the thinking that they should be able to choose who the leader is. Because you're using your context of growing up in New Zealand. Yeah, you're wearing your New Zealand glasses or Western glasses or whatever. I think people who are so...

against other cultures and other ideas, uh, really just highlighting their lack of experience. Um,

But then again, it's hard because I've got friends who have come to China many times and they love visiting here, but they still like, yeah, but China's bad. Because they're unwilling to let go of that narrative. Even though they come here, they don't see any evidence that really backs up that narrative so much. They feel like they just, or do they? Well, I think you need time. I mean, if you just visit, you're not going to really be able to. How long are they visiting for? Well, I feel like they need Chinese friends. Um,

and see what Chinese people are really like. I mean, if you look at women's rights, like in China, at Shanghai Daily, all of my bosses, except one, are women. Exactly. It's like you would never see that in New Zealand. So I feel like if they just visited and actually spent a bit of time, it took me a few years, I think, to really let go and see things from

you know, in the context of China, it takes a big investment. So I think that's why people just don't do it. I want to continue on that for a second because that's something that I also realized working here. Obviously you have machismo, right? You have like that quote unquote toxic masculinity that based off of Western standards that we know of here. Of course we have that here too. But in terms of like,

in the workspace. I mean, most of the people I have to deal with in terms of clients and like people in power are women and really strong women. Yeah. You know, and it's like,

You would not, I mean, you wouldn't even, I wouldn't even be able to have that conversation back in the States. I mean, obviously there's this progression quote unquote happening. But it feels fake. Back in the US, it feels fake. It's an agenda. Yeah. Well, it's, they have to do it for optic reasons. It's a bit much though. Like, I mean, I don't want to get too. It goes back to the whole PC culture thing. Yeah. Like Kamala Harris. Kamala? How do you say it? Kamala. Kamala. Like we need, my vice president will be a black woman. It's like,

But why? It just seems fake. Whereas in China, it's very real. You have so many strong women. And I don't think people realize the extent of it. Well, it's the idea of, and this also refers to the way the government works here, is also that it's much more of a meritocracy. Yeah.

Like the best person wins out. Which I like. Most of the time. Yeah. The most qualified because you're put through the ringer to even be in consideration for any high level position here. Exactly. Whether you're talking about governments or companies, right? It takes years. Yeah. So it's usually like most nine times out of 10, the merit, the like the meritocrat system plays out here and works out. You're not going to be an actor and suddenly you're

become political. No, you're not, you're not going to run the country having no experience and just some celebrity behind you. But anyway, popularity contest, that's what it is. What I like what you just said, Andy, before about this idea of letting go, right? Because this is something I've been dealing with personally too, is this, like, I feel like when we compare, obviously it's cliche to say, but obviously, okay, China, America, so different cultures, different systems, everything, blah, blah, blah. We know that, right?

But I feel like we, and I say we as the general we, we get so caught up in falling back on certain talking points and keywords and certain paradigms of thinking that kind of divide, make us think that we're actually more different than we are. Because I feel, forget communism, forget democracy, forget all these keywords and these paradigms that we hold onto. If you look at the actual lives, the daily lives,

I think the daily life of an average person, let's say in Shanghai, versus an average person, let's say in LA, is not far apart at all. And I've spent many years in both these places. They get up, they go to work, they have their family, they have some personal issues, they might go out for a drink or two, a restaurant, come back, deal with the family, pay their bills.

It's not really, if you look at the daily lives and you remove all the other bullshit in terms of the ideology that we hold on to, the real end result, because whatever your opinions are about whatever political system, what is most important is what is actually the end result of its effect on people's livelihoods, right? Like that's the most important thing. At the end of the day, what are you getting out of it?

And if you're looking at that and you're looking at the end result of how these people are living and their general livelihoods and their routines, it's really not much different. And, you know, I'm doing my best to say neutral here, but it's like, you can go into the details of like this idea of this talking point of, oh, Chinese people are slaves and they're not free. Yeah.

But what is freedom is if you're living in America and you're not able to pay for medical care and you're not able to pay for your medicine, you're not, you can hardly afford higher education. You're going from job to job, living from paycheck to paycheck and not even getting great benefits from that. Like, is that freedom? Okay. So is that your idea of freedom just because you were able to vote? Like from your perspective, since you're coming, coming in from different sides, right? I mean,

freedom like the differences you know from the west and here like what's your perspective oh that's a deep one freedom what is freedom well i know in the west if you say what is freedom probably a lot of people will say the right to vote yeah and i think that is like you see that china in china's context china is a meritocracy they take years and years and years to climb to the top like i feel like actually the political system here is much stronger and so

Maybe if you look at the fundamentals, freedom is being able to choose your friends who you want to hang out with, eat what you want, have a job, be happy, I guess. That's freedom. But I think in the West, a lot of people feel that freedom is political. Whereas I feel like probably if you looked at it more objectively, it's not so political, I think. I think Chinese people are very free. People will say,

um, YouTube and Twitter and Facebook abandoned China. It's like China has dozens and dozens of social media video sites. But if you don't have YouTube, that means you don't have freedom. You don't have freedom. So it's just like, Oh, and also a lot of people will say freedom is the ability to, um,

go to the white house and call the president, whatever you want to call him. You do it in China. You'll be arrested. They say, but it's just like, again, you've got to look at the context, like, because this is a meritocracy and the leaders here have worked so many years to get to where they are. People have a respect for them. Like you wouldn't just go up to a leader in China and say, if you, you know what I mean? Um,

And also one of the funny things is when people say that, I'm like, but have you done that? Did you do that? And they're like, well, no, but I could. It's like, you're boring. So would you want to do that? Who do you think you are to say that? I feel like freedom shouldn't have a context. Freedom should be universal, but I don't think it is. That's probably one of the problems. But I think if people in the West broke it down and thought about it, they may start to see it as more of a quintessential like,

Like, how are you actually living? Like, what is your life really like, you know? That's what he was saying, because he was like... I mean, Andy was saying, like, it's basically depending on what kind of lens you're wearing, like, what kind of glasses you're wearing, right? And if you're kind of stuck with...

how you're raised and how you, how you're supposed to view things. How it should be. You know, how it should be. And then if you're given a different choice or a different option that you kind of like, well, that's not right. You know, it's like, you know, if you're going to have spaghetti and meatballs and then somebody comes in with, you know, using some other type of ingredient for the meatball, but that's not spaghetti and meatballs, you know, it's the same idea, right? Unless it's all about context. Um,

Yeah, I mean, people could even be more dramatic and be like, well, if you have to go to work every day, that's not freedom. You know what I mean? Freedom would be all I can eat, all the money in the world, blah, blah, blah. So I guess...

You could look at it in any way. It's a deep question. It is a deep question because a lot of people correlate freedom with, like you said, the freedom to vote, the freedom of speech. Obviously, once again, I'm being very American right now. But I think in terms of America, there's...

diminishing freedom of speech. And it's not governmental, it's societal. Like we were saying before, if you say the wrong thing, you're going to be cut off from your family, friends, you could lose your job. I mean, if you're a professor and you say any number of things that don't fit the current narrative, you could be shot down. So I feel like every country and every place has its good and bad. That's probably what I'd like to...

What's the climate in New Zealand like now? I know nothing about New Zealand. I haven't been following it much lately, but I think New Zealand's pretty united at the moment behind Jacinda Ardern. They...

Feel pretty happy with how she dealt with COVID. Well, very strict with COVID. Yeah, it was like there were two countries left that had zero COVID policies. New Zealand and China. New Zealand's kind of given up now. They're still trying to control Omicron. But they've decided once they hit a certain number of daily cases, they'll just let it go. That sounds really bad. But New Zealand at the moment is...

Well, actually always been quite independent. Like we have, for example, our nuclear free policy, which the US has tried to bully us on for like decades now because they couldn't, can't enter New Zealand waters with nuclear submarines or whatever. We've always been quite independent. And I think New Zealand is trying to carve that gap

Not throw all our eggs in one basket kind of type thing. Well, in terms of like, let's say, because we've been talking about the US for so long in terms of like the political division there and politically, like, you know, being politically correct and this idea of implicit censorship, like in terms of that kind of climate, does that exist in New Zealand at all? Well, all the same things I was talking about, like losing friends and family for having the wrong point of view. I think it's prevalent in New Zealand too.

just not as strong, I think. If you had the wrong political view, wrong in air quotes, you know, you support the wrong person or the wrong idea, you could also become quite ostracized. So I think it's, I think all English-speaking Western nations sort of move together in a way. So I think anything you say about the U.S.,

probably applies to New Zealand but in a smaller... Well, what's the political makeup in New Zealand? Is the same thing like the right and left kind of thing? We say there's right and left but I think it's more centrist. So we have two parties. We have a lot of parties but really only two... Two parties that matter? That matter, that can form a government. We have quite a complicated political system. MMP, mixed member proportional. So...

People have to set up coalitions to form a government because usually no one gets over half the vote, although Jacinda did last time. But actually, our left and right is very much in the centre, you know, to the left of centre. Not so divisive? It's still, the media still tries to make it divisive because we need enemies and, you know, battles and things to make, to sell papers, sell clicks.

But actually from the outside looking in, and before I was talking about context, when I was stuck in the New Zealand context, it was quite like, wow, left, right. But now that I'm out and I see things more as an outsider, I think both political parties are really similar. Like they're really going down the same track. So I think it's also that kind of division is created by media. Interesting.

60 Minutes Australia did a funny piece on New Zealand. They said New Zealand was cosying up with China. And then they said, they had an ad that was really dramatic, like a cinema, like a blockbuster movie trailer from the 80s. And it was like,

um the kiwis have been cozying up with she and then they're like um it's not going to be new zealand it's going to be new sheeland and i was like are you serious that's on their ad it's hilarious like you would laugh at it but people actually buy into it of course they buy into it it's it's racist so when they use like a uh a movie trailer voice like yeah yeah that's what it will be and also um like i analyzed one of their pieces

The music they use, like they put very subtle background music that you may not even notice. But in their piece, that one piece, they showed New Zealand flag, Chinese flag and Australian flag. Every time it was New Zealand or Australia, it was like... Like uplifting. And then it cut to the Chinese flag, it would be like a really low droney sound in the background. Like people may not even realise. But it affects them subconsciously. But it affects their subconscious feelings about it. So...

It's terrible. It's all these tricks that they do. What other absurdities have you come across that's giving you so much ammunition? Oh, gosh.

everything pretty much because i i really feel like every one of those reports is so out of whack with reality and you can sort of like you said before all these media are linked like you can trace the same story around each each media um and i think it really showed a lot of people um the subtle power that media has in changing your your feelings your

subconsciously changing your feelings. Like I thought it was quite important if, if I don't, you know, I don't want to sound too cocky, but yeah. Well, do you feel like it's, it's like, um,

I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but do you feel like it's a losing battle? Because, like, in my opinion, you have a lot of people out there that... A small percentage of people out there that would put in their work and effort and, you know, maybe would be a little more open-minded to see, you know, and then form their own opinion or whatever. But the majority, they don't have the time or even the effort because they're lazy or whatever reasons. Mm-hmm.

They'll just take what they get. And so that's the majority of the people. That's globally, including China. That's globally. Yeah, I was going to say something, backing up what you're saying, is do you feel like the content you're making is like throwing a snowball into a building fire? I think it is for sure. Definitely. But I can't help it. I still need to try and put out the fire. But I do think people...

You said lazy. I think it is true, but I think people, it's not a lot of the time. It's not laziness. They just don't have the time or the inclination. Like I did two videos on that report by Jack James. It's 60 pages long. So most people aren't going to read it. Like even if they're interested in this topic. So the reason I did two videos was to try and get across the main points in a really simple, really simple, clean way, because honestly, majority of people don't dive deeper. So yeah,

I really feel like that's the state with mainstream media. Like people just... Well, they know. Well, they know that the majority of people will not. Exactly. Yeah. It's just headline. They read the headlines and that's how they get their information. That's another thing. People don't realize headlines. Like people will use misleading headlines and...

And then think they can get away with it by sort of correcting or, you know, stating the full facts down like five minutes into the video or in the article. But it's like that's also another one of the tricks they use because a lot of people just read the headline or maybe the first sentence. Yeah. And that's it. So media, the New York Times, I keep saying New York Times. I think they're one of the worst offenders. They really know these tricks. I think they're doing it on purpose. That's for sure.

Where, in your opinion, Andy, do you feel all this is headed going forward? The deep breath. Yeah. To be honest, I haven't really thought about it because I think it's too scary. I really hope the world stops. It feels like the world's breaking apart, separating into these camps. I really feel like it's not helpful, but I also feel like the powers that be want the world to split apart.

and lose communication, lose trade, lose openness, lose understanding. So I feel like at the moment that's where it's heading and it's scary to admit so that's why I don't want to think about it too much. But I really hope maybe it'll happen when the world starts to open again after COVID. I don't know, I feel like maybe because China at the moment is so geographically cut off, like people can't come here anymore, maybe that leads to

being mentally, you know, separating as well. So I hope, I hope the world gets back to normal again really soon and maybe we can get back to, it sounds cliched, but coming together again. But I don't know if that's actually going to happen. When do you think it was?

like we were coming together. Like, would you feel like it used to be that way? No, I don't think so. I don't think we were ever fully together, but, um, probably before Brexit, the world felt, at least to me anyway, it felt like more, um,

People were working together and trying to understand each other and get along. But I feel like this is just from my feeling, but Brexit was kind of like the snowball that began. Then we got Trump and he, you know, America first, which is completely fine. Then COVID. So I think actually we've just been, there's just been this big bad snowball that's been happening over the last few years. I feel like the world opening up again,

And people being able to travel and meet each other and explore and see different parts of the world may help. I don't know. I hope. Touch wood. Yeah. I mean, like kind of reflecting back, right? And obviously we're still in the COVID era, but not that there's ever a good time for a pandemic outbreak, right? But yeah,

it seemed like the worst possible time for it to happen in terms of it at all benefiting China's interest even. Like, it's just like, it was...

Such a crucial moment, it felt like. And then COVID happened. It was the perfect storm. And I think that just dumped so much more gasoline onto the fire when it didn't need that. That was the last thing it needed. And it just seemed like, in retrospect, it seemed like the absolute worst timing for it to happen in terms of

any sort of reconciliation between like international relations and, and like you said, the world comes together. Even domestic relations, like the, the U S was so polarized at that time that COVID just became a political issue. So I think that's what led to, um, the hideous situation. Now we have in the U S and the West in general, um,

People just didn't want to listen. Like if you remember when Trump was talking about developing the vaccine, you had the opposite. I don't know if you call it the opposition do in the States, but like Kamala, the Democrats, they were like, if Trump comes out with a vaccine, I'm not taking it. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Like it just, not just internationally, but domestically. It was a terrible time to further tear down.

things apart and this also because of that it also feeds the a lot of the conspiracy theories right it just makes the conspiracy theories that much more appetizing and believable because a lot of people i don't know how many but i'm just assuming it's a lot of people are thinking like this is what china wants they want us to be divided like this right and then obviously there's

many conspiracy theories about well conspiracy theories have a platform that could be get exposed and get gain traction a lot easier now right don't you think

Well, especially with social media. But I think last year, or maybe the year before, they started really cracking down on conspiracy theories, didn't they, on YouTube and stuff? Yeah, there's a lot of censorship going on in the States, on Facebook, on YouTube. Videos are getting taken down all the time. Yeah, if you have the word conspiracy in your title, your video will be demonetized. Even Spotify has taken down popular podcast episodes. So it's quite scary. Yeah.

I think that's where we're heading. People are wanting to have complete control over information. And how is that different than China media? I'm sorry. We're just getting exposed because when the shit really hits the fan, you see that they do everything that they criticize. Because they realize that shitty news and stuff like that can really affect the people. Is that what's going on? I think. Could be, could be. You're onto something there. Freedom? But that's the thing. A lot of the stuff China doesn't allow is things that would...

Disrupt. Disrupt and upset people. Like anything to do with ethnic unity, they're going to be very sensitive about. And that's a good thing. I don't know if you guys have seen, but there's this, there's this Twitter page that has leaked kind of orders from Chinese, from the, what is it called? Anyway, the top of the media chain and all the media editors receive these messages. It's like,

reduce comments on this story, stop pushing this story, blah, blah, blah. Trump had a meeting with China's leader and then they sent out one of those telegraphs to all the media saying, don't play up on Trump's oafish behavior, blah, blah, blah. Like they were actually protecting Trump because they don't want, you know, the state of the media to sink into the same level you're seeing in the West. So I think a lot of the things that Chinese media try to quell or put down are actually really good. I don't know if you guys agree.

I don't know. I've had episodes that have been taken down on popular Chinese podcast platforms here. And so I get frustrated. I just find it selfishly annoying because I'd like not to have some episodes taken down, right? In reality, I've probably benefited from a lot of these actions by living in a safe society. So it's hard for me to pass judgment. I can only say from my own personal experience of living here.

And at the end of the day, I think if there's any message, it's like, we like to put a lot of things up on a pedestal. We like to put media up on a pedestal. We like to put news anchors up on a pedestal. We like to put some politicians up on a pedestal, celebrities, whoever. And they will say things and have their opinions, which is their right,

But when you believe their opinions and what they're telling you over your own real life experience, that's when it becomes a problem. I like to say that having lived here for over 10 years now, I am probably more qualified to talk about this country than any US news anchor.

sitting in America reporting from Washington. So when I see people taking their word over their own experience having been here, that is another cognitive kind of disconnect and dissonance that I see when we should start valuing our own eyes and ears and let that be our source of information. And if that means we have to get off of social media and instead of living your life through the digital lens,

that's very toxic, live your life through your own eyes and ears. And if you don't have the opportunity to come to these places or to come to China and live here, then I would ask then, refrain from having any real opinions about the place. I have to exercise this myself all the time. I am super, super slow now to pass judgment or have opinions on places I haven't been to yet.

And that wasn't the case before earlier on, right? Me too. It's like the thing with the recent Ukraine-Russia situation. Yeah, that's a big one. I have no idea what's going on. So I won't talk about it because it's not my area, you know what I mean? So I think what you said is really true. Like people, sure, if you're going to consume all you know about a certain place or a certain topic through secondhand accounts like media, which most people do, be wary of the idea or the fact that that's a secondhand account. Like,

Don't preach to people as if you're some kind of expert. I think if people took that on board, the social media situation would be a lot better. Because it's full of armchair experts who claim they know so much about a certain topic all through the second-hand information. So I think maybe we all need to...

not be so cocky and sort of like sit back a bit. And I think probably one of the problems with social media is there's just so much, um, everyone wants to get their opinion out. So of course, most of it will be no offense, but it's absolute crap. Um,

Both good and bad, right? Like the positive or negative opinions. Exactly. About any kind of topic. So I think, yeah. But then again, a lot of people don't have the luxury to visit some place and see with their own eyes like...

I feel like this just goes back to, I mean, I don't want to put words into the mouths of government, but... Just do it. I'm just going to do it real quickly. I mean, you hear... I don't know if you ever heard this, Andy, but when speaking with a lot of local Chinese here, when speaking about the government and how the government runs things here and stuff like that, and the idea of freedom that we discussed before, a common response is...

There's 1.4 plus billion people here, many different ethnic minorities besides Han, and the poverty level obviously is getting fixed, but it's there. You have a lot of different classes of people here, and you have a lot of different education backgrounds of people, and exposure.

So how can you give equal power to everybody? Which, which is a good and bad way to think, right? It's like, because we are coming, I'm coming from a place of, of, uh, a bit, uh, what's the word? Like a little bit of, um, privilege. Yeah. I guess you could say privilege. So I can say that from my higher, your pedestal, my pedestal. Um, but I mean, my, my, my, my elitist comments right now. But I mean, at the same time, um,

Just like you just said, I'm not going to be making my comments on or putting a vote into a Ukraine and Russia battle. Exactly. Because I am not educated on that. I'm not informed on that. Right? And that's a perfect example of...

Me being more on the outside as opposed to what we've been mostly talking about in this episode. Being on the inside. Exactly. So I'm going to intake the news outlets that I have access to and read about what's going on, but I'm not going to form a permanent position on what is really happening there because I don't know. Mm-hmm.

And what's so bad about that? What's so terrible about that? Doing it a little bit old school, going back to a time when information wasn't so connected and everyone couldn't just be a publisher and a content creator and have a loudspeaker in front of them. What's so terrible about that? About not having an opinion about a place that you've never been to. Is that so terrible? I mean, I'm honestly asking. Maybe there's some... It's terrible if you use it wrongly, but... I feel like a lot of them...

People feel like they have to hold an opinion. Like they're being forced to hold an opinion on a lot of these things. Or like they have to take a moral stance on something, right? And they feel like if they don't say something, that's as bad as supporting something terrible or whatever, which is another flawed thing.

kind of logic. I feel like people feel like if they don't talk out, speak out against something that is supposedly evil or bad, then they're, you know, just as bad. So I don't know. I feel like social media, it's a tough one because it kind of forces us to have an opinion. They want us to have an opinion. So we're going to have these muddy opinions

you know, muddy waters. And this is similar, you know, with mainstream media. Now they're losing a lot of viewers. And I think it's a lot of it is because of these independent, you know, what's his name? Joe Rogan. Yeah. He's like super popular. It's these independent voices. So there's good and bad.

Let me just give an example to kind of express, I feel like, a big picture idea of what's happening with political correctness. Without naming names, I was having a conversation. I'm going to talk about... I'm a director. And so I was having a conversation with a director friend in the States. And he is very, very...

Put it that way. Okay. And so he's all about women's rights and stuff like that and pushing that agenda and really supportive. He's a male. And he's like, yeah, it should be more female directors, which is great. And we have conversations about that. And then all of a sudden, we're talking about something and he's like, it's crazy because every bit I'm on, now it's like a requirement to have a female director as part of the bid.

And it's like ridiculous. And it's like some of these people who don't even have the work to back up, you know, you know, and then they'll get booked just because they're a woman. I'm like, hold on. Where are you just talking about? Like when it affects him, you know, you know, and he's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm supportive of it.

But I haven't worked in like, you know, when it affects his bottom dollar. Exactly. No, but he's still supportive of it, but he's still complaining about it. So it's like this, it's, it's a weird thing. Cause I, I feel like I didn't outright say this to him, but I feel like it's, it's one of those things where you, you feel like it's the right thing to do, but maybe the way to do it is not the right way. Uh-huh.

You know what I mean? Like, in terms of, like, okay, so let's talk about directing, for example. Yes, I'm always supportive of female directors, DPs, or anybody in the film industry because it is male-dominated, right? But I feel like it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to go out of your way to...

or push this agenda for the sake of it. I feel like you need to prop up the successful ones because they are there. They are there. Prop them up, right? Show the people that you can as a female. Yeah, you can be a director. It's not a male thing, right? Prop them up. But going back to what I forgot one of you guys mentioned is like, well, you should be doing it based off of your ability, your love, your creativity or whatever. Yeah.

on my profession, for example, right? As opposed to just your gender. - What's the psych of it? - I mean, because I feel like that should be universal. It's the same reason why I feel like a lot of roles are filled, like leadership roles are filled by women and they were just really good at what they do. They're good. I mean, they deserve to be in that position, period.

Right? I mean, it's like if I was in the States, when I was in the States and if I got into a university or if I got a job because I was Chinese, I would get pissed personally. Like, I don't need the upper hand. I'm going to prove to you that I can do it. Like, you don't want a stepping, you don't want like a stepping stool. You don't want, you don't want affirmative action. I don't want, yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't believe in affirmative action. Okay.

It's debatable. It's debatable. That's a controversial take. It's debatable. It's debatable. But I feel like affirmative action just for the sake of affirmative action, because to me, I feel like it's gloss. It's very surface level. It's talking points. But if you're really, really about...

Which I don't have a way to fix it, but if you really are open-minded and I'm not looking at color, I'm not looking at gender based off of ability and all that stuff. Based off of merit. Based off of merit. Then you wouldn't need, obviously you wouldn't need affirmative action, right? Because this is a root level problem, not a surface level problem. Right.

Well, let's spend another two hours talking about affirmative action. We could. Let's dive into that rabbit hole. No, I have a friend. I hope he doesn't listen to this. He worked for the Ministry of Women in New Zealand. But he kept talking about how, you know, the gender pay gap. He was like, women get paid less. And I was like, yeah, but have you thought about these other things? Women choose different kinds of jobs. You know, a lot of the time they take time off. But whatever it is. And he goes, no, no, no. Women are paid less for the same job. And I was like, oh, okay.

And then another day he told me about a pay rise he got. And I was like, oh, I told you about a what? A pay rise. And I was like, did the other women in your team get the same pay rise? And he's like, no, they didn't ask for it. And I was like, do you think that's fair? That's the same thing. And then I was also like, do you think maybe you should step down from your job and let a woman take that role? He was like, no. So that's why I think it is virtual signaling because it's

They'll say they agree with all this stuff, but as soon as it affects them, then they're all of a sudden, oh, I am for it, but at what cost? It's all root level. And how much judgment on it can we really pass? Because at the end of the day, we're all going to be selfish creatures. I think that's just how we are all programmed as humans. When it affects our own interests personally and directly...

hey, we're going to defend it, right? And so we're all wired to do that. And it's those of us who kind of can live with it and find ways to live well and fair and treat other people with respect, knowing that that's a reality versus people who want to deny that reality and just...

hide from it and disguise it in different ways we sound so conservative now you know that right that's true yeah we sound so conservative and we're so high up on our pedestal right now too what the fuck happened to us we're on a high horse is it because we're getting older

You think it's because we're getting older? No, I don't think we're... We only sound... It goes back to context. We only sound conservative now because the middle ground of the whole... Has moved. Has moved and has shifted. So I think we've always kind of took in this stance. Whereas before, in earlier times, it wouldn't be viewed as so... It'd be viewed probably as more middle. I disagree. And now it's viewed as conservative. I disagree because I don't know about you. You just said when you were younger as well, right?

When you were younger, you were a lot more like... Yeah, but I think it has moved. Okay. Because now there's sort of certain things I would stand up for or whatever that now would be viewed as conservative. Like...

And it's like nowadays, people that are in university now, like early twenties or whatever, they, they have moved to the goalposts like way over here or over there or wherever. I really think it's, it's changed. Like I felt like, have I changed politically as I've got older? But I don't think I have. I actually think it's just the surrounds that have changed. Why don't you, why don't you think it has shifted, Howie?

Because I feel like when I was younger, I would be a lot, speaking personally, when I was younger, I would blindly follow certain politically correct messaging just because I felt like it was the right thing to do. This is something you should know. Like back in the day, he's the type that would have joined Antifa.

oh gosh right like you've admitted this maybe maybe maybe i'm not someone's moved right but as i got older and and living through experiences and seeing many different perspectives and understanding a little bit more about the nuances and having a little bit more of a mature perspective i would think a little bit more and yeah and i would realign my thoughts yeah but but

Before, like when I was younger, you said you blindly followed a lot of those things. I've 100% believed those things. Well, that's part of the following though. Don't you think? Now when I think about it, when I think about it now, I'm like, did I really believe that? So, yeah, so maybe I've changed a little bit.

Oh God. Did I change or did it? You're having like a personal identity crisis right now. You're having an identity crisis live on air right now in real time. You never know.

See, because we don't think about this stuff that often. Exactly. And then when you come together and talk about it. Well, when you have to really reason out loud your positions, that's when you find that it's much more difficult to do so for many of the time. And that's when you see a lot of people get stuck and they can't articulate their

Their stance. Yeah. They just believe it for some reason to their core. But when you actually engage in a productive, calm, reasonable conversation with them and have them articulate their point out, that's when they get stuck. And instead of going like, hmm, okay, well, maybe I got this wrong. They're just like, well, you know, and they get really frustrated. They double down on it.

and just insist that you're wrong, right? And that's when you can notice like, okay, well, they don't really have

any information to really back up most of the time their their own claims that's when they start calling you a cpc show or yeah because they have nothing else to call you right and that's when it gets to that you're like okay whatever well that but that's the common pattern because besides you i've had other guests on there's that matt gallett i've had uh cyrus jansen oh right yeah and and they've all been called the same things yeah and that's like seems like the go-to name like attack right for me i don't mind

when they call me that, but for people like Cyrus Jensen, like independence for him is so important. So it's actually quite damning if people think he's connected in some way to any other forces or receiving any money. Which is insane. Because when you actually sit down and get to know these people, like I have with you and Cyrus and Matt, you realize that that's not the case at all. And these are just individuals like sharing their experiences and their thoughts and their opinions and,

And the research that they've done on these topics that they are very passionate about themselves because they've been here, lived here for a long duration of time. And like us and like what we've been preaching this whole episode is that they've seen the other side and they want to scream from the mountaintops. Look, it's not the way it's being told. The reality is very different than the way you're being told it is.

And that's when we get so worked up about it, you know, and it's frustrating, but it's an important message to at least try to get out, even if you're throwing a snowball into a building fire. And Andy, I mean, I thank you so much for coming on. We can go.

I feel like we can keep going. Did we already hit 90 minutes? No, we're like two and a half. We're two and a half hours. Oh my gosh. I told you time flies. I told you. When you first sat down, you're like, are we really going to talk for nine minutes? That seems a little long. It's going to be an hour and a half hours that you haven't even noticed. Wow. That's awesome. It flies by, man. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. Where can people find you? Oh, they can find me on YouTube, youtube.com slash reports on China, Twitter. It's not reports on China. I want to buy that. Someone has that.

Oh, the name? The Twitter handle, yeah. My Twitter is... Well, what do they report on in China? It's to do with financial something. They haven't posted in ages. Twitter, I don't know. If they want to find me, they can somewhere. What about in China? What platforms are you on in China? I'm on Bilibili, TikTok, Facebook. You can search for GreenEyeAndy. Or I have another one that's...

Let me see, I forgot. On Douyin, I have... Because I just started a new one. A new channel? For reports on China. It's called 外媒看中国. That's the Chinese one. And then on Kuai Shou, I think I'm called the same thing. Anyway. Cool, we'll throw the links on the... Yeah, that'll be awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Andy, once again. I am Justin. And I'm Howie. That was Andy. All right, guys, cheers.

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.