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Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay, and choo-choo! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today. We have an awesome show for you all aboard the murder train. Here we go. Pulling away from the station. Get your tickets ready. Keep them out. Keep your tickets out. I've got to punch the holes and you know how it goes here. We've got our engineer caps on today, everybody. That's right.
Stripey. So we have a great show for you, wild stuff. And before we get to that, quickly, shutupandgivememurder.com is where you get everything. Your tickets to live shows mostly. First of all, regular live shows, May 31st, Durham. Yeah. You are up next, North Carolina. We're psyched for that. And we have Nashville the next night. That's sold out. Right. But we also have, in case, so what if you're somewhere you can't make a show? What can you do? Virtual live show. Well, let's say you're listening to this. You're like, well, it's the 420 show. This is past the 20th. You're wrong.
Doesn't matter. Still available. It's available for two weeks after the 20th. Get it right now, just like a regular live show, except right in your house or wherever you want to be. I don't know. Your car, your roof. I don't care where. That's nice. Lay in like a field of wildflowers. What a great idea. Oh, that's terrific. Do you have a projector? Put it out there. Watch the show and then make love in the flowers. It's going to be wonderful. You sick, sick people.
Do that and have lots of fun with it. Shut up and give me murder.com. And then also, you certainly want Patreon. Oh, what's there? Patreon.com slash crime and sports. It's all the bonus stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. So get in there right now. You get, for anybody, $5 a month or above. You're going to get a whole back catalog, hundreds of episodes that you've never heard before. Immediately, bonus stuff. And then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. You get it all.
You get it all, guys. All of it. So get in there right now this week, which you're going to get for Crime and Sports. We're going to talk about the whole Otani gambling disaster in baseball and then other gambling incidents. They get brushed under the rug. Pete Rose is the only one where they were like, shine a spotlight on it. Everything else has been seriously pushed under the rug and lots of ones we'll talk about. For small-town murder, we're going to talk about something very fun. Was Charles Manson a CIA asset? Fascinating.
Was he? Yeah. Was the whole thing a big conspiracy to take down the whole hippie movement and the anti-war thing and all that? We'll talk all about it. Some guy ruined his whole career and spent 20 years writing a book on this crazy shit. He really hates that people are nice. Wow. We're going to talk all about it. And other CIA-related conspiracy holes will go down there. So that said, I think it's time, by the way, patreon.com slash crimeinsports. Get that right now. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's go.
Let's do this. I think it's time to clear the lungs. Here we go. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up.
Come and give me murder. Let's do this. I like it. Let's go on a trip. Let's run. Shall we? All right. We are going to New Jersey. Hey. Not too far away here. Probably about a two-hour drive from where we are right now. We're going to Long Branch, New Jersey. Long Branch. Long Branch, which if it sounds familiar, it's because you heard it on The Sopranos, and we'll talk about that.
Oh, yeah. That's probably why. I was like, uh-oh. Did you do enough research, James? Find out that we already did this? No, no. No, no. That happened once before. This is in central New Jersey on the east coast of New Jersey over there. It's a beach, kind of a touristy beach spot here. About an hour and 15 to New York City. About 40 minutes to Tom's River Township. Oh, boy. Our last Jersey episode, episode 437, Sex, Greed, and Vice Principals. Yeah.
So, yes. Population here, 31,734. Wow. So a good-sized town. I mean, it's right on the water, so it's nice. Median income here, median household income, is about $65,000. Doing well. Which is close to the normal of the rest of the country. But the median home price, holy shit. I can't imagine. $641,700. Nice.
It's the water. How do you do it? You're on the beach. I think those people live in apartments that make the average, and then people who live other places own homes here that are very expensive. They don't live here. Yeah. Motto of this town, they have two. One is the first seaside resort. First one. First one, which on the East Coast, it kind of was. Really? As far as a resort. Really? They kind of invented that type of thing. Okay. And they also call it the friendly city, which I've spent a lot of time in Jersey, and the
I wouldn't call much of it friendly. That's not the that's not the even when someone's being friendly like, hey, asshole, you need help or what? They're willing to help you, but they're going to call you an asshole and be aggressive about it.
Hey, jerk off. You want me to help you change that? Why don't you ask? I don't have a lot of auto expertise. You know what I mean? I don't know. I'm in Jersey. That's why I didn't ask. Hey, go fuck yourself. I'll help you. Hey, cocksucker, you need a jump or what? I'll help you. It's very weird. So it was emerged as a beach resort town in the late 1700s. So yeah, people started going there. Like,
Early presidents went there. It was the spot to go. 1700s sandals. That's how it was, pretty much. In the 19th century, 1800s, theatrical performers would have their things because people would gather there, just like in any of these boom towns. They realized we'll go to where the people are. That's right, where people will show up. So Long Branch in the 20th century wasn't really a theater hotspot anymore. It became more of a family vacation type of joint. You don't take your kids to watch theater generally.
especially in Jersey. Oh, that seems like a nightmare. Yeah, and then the Garden State Parkway opened up, and then people could get south easier, so then there was less traffic.
for Long Branch here. Now, on The Sopranos, Long Branch is where Adriana's nightclub is, the crazy horse that Chris buys her and kills somebody in there and all that kind of thing. Yes, that is exactly... How about that? It was in Long Branch. Remember, they show up, she's blindfolded, and she says, I smell the ocean. Right. And then she gets inside and says, I smell piss, which New Jersey is a good mix of piss and ocean. It's very nice. Yeah.
I smell fish and piss. And then the other, the house Tony hangs out in when he's hiding out toward the end of the series was in Long Branch also. So Long Branch gets a lot of play there. Reviews of this town quickly here. Five stars. Jesus Christ, this person is wordy.
We'll go through this. Five stars. Long Branch has been booming after Hurricane Sandy and is a beachy, touristy city. Though the traffic gets a little much during the summertime. Yeah.
Yeah. Imagine it is what you expect when the weather is nice and everyone wants to go to the beach. OK, they're good. Someone's logical. They go, yeah, I'm in a place where people want to be. What do you want? The pier village is a family friendly setting where you can both go to the beach for a day but get something to eat for dinner before you hit the road. There's plenty of parking, but you'll need to pay upwards of ten dollars to park for the day.
That's incredibly affordable. For a whole day? That sounds great, yeah. Wow. New York City, that would cost you $75 easy. Oh my God. Wow. Anywhere in New England is $50. Oh, super expensive. For a day? For a whole day. I'm shocked they let you park the day. That's $10. It's usually four hours. Get the fuck out of here. And she's complaining. Wow, or he's complaining. Incredible. Three stars. Long Branch is as close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park. Okay.
OK, as close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park, drugs, guns and a lot of Hispanic people. Oh, my God. It is not feels racist.
Is that why that feels racist? I don't like drugs. I don't like people with guns. And I don't like a lot of Hispanic people. Yeah, I think they were naming three bad things in their mind. The beach is a wonderful summer spot. The winter's kind of dead. Gee, winter at the beach? Yeah. Surprised. People don't want to go sit by the ocean where it's windy and cold. I would love to see cleaner streets and the ocean. I have taken it upon myself to clean up the ocean area. Is that right? This person's going to clean the ocean. Just dragging the bottom.
Wow. That's pretty impressive. One guy is going to clean the ocean and recruit who I can. He's a crazy person going through the streets going, help me clean the ocean. It's dirty. It's dirty.
That's the clean. Help me clean the ocean guy. He's like a local, you know, he gets transient time to time. Yeah. Yeah. Five bucks. All right, man. Sure. All right. I've been in bad spots in my life, but I'm happy here with my family, but needs more life. Okay. Three stars. It is. It's a silly little city that has a nice beach and good school. Silly, silly little city.
Tickle your nipples. It's nice. Yeah. Tickle your fucking funny bone here. The streets are clean and the parks are just great for young children. Yeah. Parks good for kids. Weird. There's a local pool alongside the beaches just in case you don't much like the beach. Okay. Go in the pool instead of the big giant pool that's over that way. One star here. Finally, long branch schools suck and the town sucks.
That's why I moved and changed schools. The people and kids in Long Branch aren't friendly at all. That kid got a lot of wedgies. Whole lot of wedgies there for that young man, I would say. Long Branch schools suck and the town sucks, man.
Things to do in this town. Yeah. Long Branch Ocean Fest. Okay. Yeah. That should be all the time. Ocean Fest. Ocean Fest. It's 4th of July. Oh, it's a big deal around the summer. They say it's the biggest Independence Day celebration anywhere in New Jersey. Oh, okay.
Anywhere. The whole fucking... They go pretty hard. The whole shore goes hard on them. The Northeast goes pretty hard on the 4th of July. They do. So it's this, I don't know what they're talking about here, but maybe it is. I have no idea. It's a balls claim. Yeah, they say crowds numbering in the hundreds of thousands have come for the last 35 years to this place from all over the place. I'll bet that's true down the whole fucking coast. It's just people go to the water on those type of...
things here. They say there's sights, sounds, and sensations of the summer season. Jesus, that is a lot of S's. Visitors can stroll the famous beachfront, take in the wonderful views. Same shit that happens every other time, except there's fireworks probably. Enjoyed performances by dancers, musicians, comedians,
clowns and musical acts. Who brought the clowns? Sample from a smorgasbord of food vendors and check out the wares of crafters from all over the Northeast. You can even see fabulous sand sculptures and meet a familiar costume character while catching some ocean breezes. Oh, they dress up as people too. Yeah. It just sounds like a, like a bad street fair. It's like sunset Boulevard, but fucking by the beach. That's all beach times square. Yeah.
No good. Yikes. Hollywood Boulevard's awful. So, okay. That said, let's talk about a murder. Okay. Now that we're in New Jersey, it's a good place to die. Let's talk all about it. Okay. Let's go back in time some here. A little bit. Let's see. We're going to tie a machine. Things are swirling. Clocks are whining.
Find it up. 1982. Okay. Let's go back to. So, yeah, we're going. Wow, it's 42 years ago at this moment in time. First, let's talk about a man, Walter A. Karras Jr. K-A-R-R-A-S. K-A-R-R-A-S. Karras. Yeah. Walter A. Karras Jr., which I want to call him Alex because of Alex Karras, the...
Guy who played Mongo and Webster's father. Yeah. So that's just the same last name. And I just want to call him Alex. By the way, he is one of the guys we'll talk about in the gambling. Oh, yeah. He got suspended for a whole year. It's fucking hilarious. So this guy, Walter, is a policeman and has been married for 22 years. He keeps running for Oceanport Borough Council and losing.
He runs every year and loses. How humbling. Yeah, I don't understand why he keeps doing it, but he keeps fucking doing it. Wow. And he is married to Ann. That's his wife's name. And they have two children as of 1982. They have an 11-year-old boy named Walter, again. The third. The third. And a 13-year-old girl named Christina, spelled oddly as well. Really? K-R-Y-S-T-I-N-A.
Like it starts out almost like crystal and then bust into a Christina. It's a transformer. It's a tree. Yeah. Um, now, uh, and sister-in-law said she always made people feel like they were the best. Like,
Like they were the best. They are? Or people are the best? She makes you feel like you're the best. Oh, that's nice. She always had a smile. That's wonderful. Who doesn't want to hang out with somebody like that? She also, Ann, is well known around here where she's active in a lot of the political and social organizations.
They really like that, huh? Yes. They're much into that. He's a cop and he runs for shit and she's into all that kind of thing. Okay. She's very into her children, protective of them. And making you feel like you're the best. And making you feel like you're the best. They've been married for 22 years. Yeah. And they've talked about divorce a few times. Oh. Yeah, their marriage has hit the skids. It's 22 years. It happens. People go through rough patches in 22 years. Yeah. It happens. And they talked about divorce a little bit, but-
Ann never wanted to get divorced. She was the one who never wanted to get divorced because she said it would have brought shame to her large Italian family. Okay, it's that. It's what it is. It's cultural. Catholic Italian shit. Well, the Italian families, they don't want you to get divorced. When my grandmother got divorced, this was like 1968, people came from Italy.
To tell her that she's a piece of shit? Yeah. What? Yes. Her brothers flew over an ocean to yell at her to not get divorced. I got to take a message to her in person. They flew across a fucking ocean for this. To yell at her. Like in Godfather 2 when they brought in Frankie Pantangeli's brother to stare at him and make him fucking not testify. That's exactly what they did to her.
And she just ran away and moved to California so they couldn't find. It was crazy. Yeah. That's how hardcore it was. Dead serious. Yeah. They did not want you. And this is 82. It's a little bit later. But still, sometimes it's a little much. And also for the kids. She didn't want to get divorced. There is that. They were a respectable couple and she didn't want to be broken up and be a broken up family. You know, it's not what she's broken home, you know.
So March 20th, 1982, Walter and Anne are going out on a date together. That's nice. 22 years. If you're going to stay together, you got to be able to get to do things together and get away from people and the kids. It's also impressive if you're seriously considering divorce and you're still doing date night. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Well, I think the divorce thing kind of comes and goes, wanes and ebbs and flows type of deal. So now they go to the movies and they,
They park their car and they start walking toward the movie theater. Now, Walter here, they're near an Italian restaurant that's near the movie theater. Walter said, ah, shit, I got to go back to the car. I've left the keys in it. That's not good. So I got to go back and get the keys. That's not good. It's going to get stolen. Yeah.
He runs back to get the keys and says, you know, wait here. I'll be right back. So she's hanging out in front of an Italian restaurant. It's a pretty safe area, you know, not terribly dangerous or anything like that. Then diners in the Italian restaurant thought they heard a woman scream out Walter. Oh, OK. Like multiple times. Now, he Walter comes back from getting the keys and finds Walter.
laying there on the ground bleeding like crazy and gurgling. Oh,
And she's been stabbed 22 times. Holy. And her purse has been taken. Yeah. Yeah. She has no purse. Her crucifix has been taken off her neck. The gold chain. Yeah. And her purse has been snatched. Robbed and stabbed like 22 times is a lot. That's not normal for robbery. Robbery is let go of your shit. Yeah. Two, three. And then I'm gone. Enough to get you to let go of your shit. And I'm getting the hell out of here. Slashing even.
and not even stabbed. Yeah, but 22 times is like, fuck you. You're going to die. I want your purse. I want, yeah. The purse, you could get the purse before 22 stabs. You'd think after like three, four. Yeah, they'd probably go, okay, fine. You know, you just punctured my lung. Take my purse. But,
So people freak the fuck out. She dies. Wow. She dies in the street, literally bleeds out in the street as they wait for help to come. In front of an Italian restaurant? In front of an Italian restaurant. That wasn't a Billy Joel song. No, that's not one of the scenes from an Italian restaurant. Why'd you leave that one out, Bill? Yeah, that's not exactly. Walter and Annie were in front of the restaurant and got stabbed right on the ground. It's not the same thing. Fucking Billy Joel.
Oh, man. So, yeah, the people freak out. I can't imagine. Because, you know, this nice woman's been... Nobody saw it, though? Slaughtered. No, nobody saw it. They just heard it. They heard her scream out, Walter, which would make sense that she'd be calling for her husband to come help her. You know what I mean? Because he's a cop, too, I'm sure. He would probably...
Jump in there, I assume. Probably carrying. Either carrying, yeah. I don't know if New Jersey is one of them, but in a lot of states, cops are required to carry firearms even off duty just in case some shit pops off. So maybe. I remember that from Beverly Hills Cop. Oh, yeah. I'm required to carry. Actually, in Detroit, cops are required to carry firearms at all times.
So this is, it's a nice area. It's a tourist. It's where people go out to dinner and go to the movies. That's they do not want. This is local government. This is the last place they want murders. They want people to go out and spend money and have it be thriving and do all that. It's the, you know, the worst way you could do it. So rewards are posted and a trust fund set up for the children by the coworkers at the police force of Walter and, uh,
It's horrible. At the wake, Walter collapses and sobs and he's grieving. My poor wife. And, you know, everybody's... It's horrible. I mean, Jesus Christ. How do you...
Yeah. 22 years. And they've been married since he was 20. Right. They're both 42, 43 years old. I mean, this is what they've been together. But he gets cheered up pretty quick, actually. Yeah. Someone said, cheer up, bitch. And he said, well, I know how to do that. He is seen very shortly after the funeral, like within a week, hanging out in Hoboken at the train station with a 21-year-old named Mary Claire Williams.
That was quick. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot. Twenty one. Twenty one. He found and he's like, I need to get really cheery really fast. This is I'm super depressed and relive my 20s. Yeah, that's yeah. I'm going to try to go back. I didn't want to fucked up. I didn't mean to get married and have those kids. I'm gonna go back and relive my whole life here. So one of the policemen that works with him said we were all just a little surprised. I mean, he just buried his wife.
Yeah. Like, it's really just... That dirt's still loose. Yeah, that's just odd. But I mean, people have weird reactions to stuff. Maybe he's...
very lonely and i mean who knows i you don't know what how people feel if they've been together for that long and they die and the kids are there i get that it sounds bad but maybe it's not bad and from her perspective though it's even weirder i think not yeah i think it's more this hot older widow this guy just he's got a loose dirt and yeah still want him yeah this is hot how do you hot stuff right here you're on a date with your wife a week ago hot hot
Now, the thing is, this is not new. They've actually been together for like two years. He's been banging this 21-year-old since she was 19. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Oh.
Since he was like 41 and she was 19, they've been together. That's so weird. That is, stuff's getting weirder and weirder here. Oh, good grief. Yeah. Now, a little bit about Mary Claire Williams here. She moved to this area with her family from Illinois when her father got a job as an executive director for the Family and Children's Services in Long Branch in 1974. So that was when she was a kid.
And then he left there to go into business for himself. Now, her sophomore year of high school was 1977, and she went to Shore Regional High School. And the following year, she lived with an aunt who was a nun in
in Illinois. Yikes. She spent her senior year with a nun in Illinois. Going to a Catholic school probably, right? Yes, she went to Red Bank Catholic School during her senior year. There you go. Oh, repression. No, she's not repressed. She's out on the surface. No, it's not repressed. She's just rebelling against this kind of thing. She has a friend of hers who's a child.
Yeah, during the... In the 80s, this kid's in like eighth grade or something. That's her friend? That's her friend because I guess...
Mary was one of St. Dorothea's CYO basketball, Catholic Youth Organization. I guess I should say, if you're not from the Northeast, you won't know what CYO basketball is. And she was a star basketball player. Mary was. And then she began coaching 6th, 7th, and 8th graders in another CYO league, and that's how she met this young girl. She was mentoring her.
I guess. So she is described as a coach. They described her as not as a coach, but as a woman. They know who she is because she's young. So she talks to the kids and they said she was someone who sought out love but rejected it at the same time. Yeah, she was a fierce competitor, they said, with a run and gun style on the court, but then easily persuaded and easily hurt off the court.
So not the same. Yeah. Doesn't have the same attitude. Her teammates said she was a troubled teenager who had an outgoing personality but still wasn't
Didn't make friends easy. Really? Which is really weird. Everybody keeps calling her a paradox. That's what they always call her. She's outgoing. Outgoing, but doesn't make friends easy, which is the opposite of what's usual. Yeah. And on the court, she's really aggressive and everything. And then off the court, she can hurt her very easily. So it's interesting. They said that when she had a friend, she'd give that person everything she had. She'd just dump everything into this friend, which can be overwhelming for people. And that might be why...
She doesn't have, you know, as many friends as she'd liked here. So, yeah, they so they're they're all she's a basketball player, basketball coach. And she said this is her young friend said she'd do anything for anybody. She came on a little too strong in an effort to be light. I loved her. Every time I had a problem, she talked to me. So then Mary goes to the Grace Institute, which is a secretarial school in New York City run by nuns.
I'm going to be a nun secretary. Okay. Why do you want to be taught secretarial things by nuns? Answering calls for nuns? I don't know. The nuns run a school. Really? A secretarial school. Yeah, it's run by nuns. Jesus. The principal, Sister Marie Morin, said she was a very outgoing girl and always full of life. You always knew when she was around. Okay. Which is half, that's a backhanded compliment. You know what I mean? That's one of those. You always knew.
She's loud. Yeah. Yeah. She ends up working for a law firm for a couple months and then she does like general reception work from,
from her secretarial background. And then she ended up getting a job at Bear Stearns, which is the brokerage firm in the financial district in New York. It's a big one. Yeah. So she ends up meeting there and she would commute. She met Walter commuting to New York City by train from Oceanport. They were on the same commuter train together. That's how they met. She's on her way to Bear Stearns and he's on his way to the police department. That's it. It's up north of here, the police department he works in. So she...
She was really looking for somebody to devote her life to, her friend said. And when she met Walter, she's like, there it is. Girl, you are a child. The love of my life. And also he's married with, he's been married longer than you've been alive. You're 19. And yeah, he's got two kids and she's like, nope, not going to worry about any of that stuff. They said once she hooked up with Walter, her friends all said she had no time for anything else.
Really? Her one friend said it was a whole security bit. She wanted someone there all the time. She pushed everybody off after she met him. She was one of the only people I trusted in the world, and I don't know where to turn when I don't have her to talk to. This is wild. It's very weird. She would tell her friends that, listen, don't be offended, but I have no time for you anymore. I only have time for him. She would tell them that. I fell in love, and...
Is she hot? Yeah, I mean, she's fine. She's pretty. What the fuck? Yeah. They said until she met Walter, she was a great friend. And then all of a sudden, she was like, I have no interest in you. Fascinating. Yeah. They said she was very good sympathetic ear. Yeah. And not anymore. Not after Walter. She didn't want to talk to anybody. This is like the...
girl of your dreams when you're 21. When you're 21. To get a girl that's that fucking devoted to you. He's like, yeah, you'd feel good. Yeah, look at that. That's what loves me. At 43 and you're married, you think you've bitten off more than you can chew here. Uh-oh. You know what I mean? I got kids. So, yeah, this is while he's running for the third time for the Oceanport Borough Council. Yeah.
And so he's got like a true politician. He's got things going on. He's got some things. Get some things on the side here. Fuck his whole thing up. So they would hook up in New Jersey motel rooms. All class. Jesus. All class. He said their first date, quote, Mary got in the car and said, we didn't have to go to a movie. A hotel room would be fine.
Don't. We don't need to go out. We're fucking. That's it. Food? Who needs food? We don't need that. Let's just go fuck. Give me your cock. That's it. I eat cock for dinner. This is incredible. He said it was once a week after that. What? Oh, yeah. Then they suggested, she said, well, why don't we just commute together by car so we could save money? So they did. He said, so we ended up with more time together and there was more chances for motel stops so they could hook up more often here.
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Q U I N C E.com slash small town murder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash small town murder. Now back to the show. Um, during the time they're together, which is from like fall of 81 through 82 here, she gets pregnant twice and has two abortions during that time. Yeah. So two in less than a year.
He knocks her up twice. He's doing nothing to... He doesn't seem like he's doing a lot to try to... That's reckless. That's what I mean, especially if you're a married man and all this type of shit and you're having an affair. Don't be knocking people up. She's got to know about this, right? She also got a boob job as well. Okay. She said, I figured if mine were bigger, maybe he wouldn't look at other women. That's her quote. So it's not for the right... Yeah, this is all a mess. Wow.
Wow. Three days after her first abortion, or her second abortion, she spoke to Ann on the telephone. Wow.
Yeah, well, Walter had left his wife and went to move in with her in December of 81. And then a month later, he moves back out again. But anyway, Ann calls here after Walter ended up coming home, so this is January of 82, and said that, quote, if I didn't leave her husband alone, she was going to wipe the streets of Oceanport with me. What?
Yikes. This is like Carmela Soprano telling you that. She's not playing. Because that's how I picture her. She said the wife also called her a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her. Yep, that's all about right. That sounds about like somebody that is afraid of divorce. Yeah, I think Carmela Soprano said that to the Russian girlfriend, like almost exactly. You're a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her, and that was that. Now, Mary said, I said I didn't mean any harm. I just needed to be loved, and he told me he loved me.
She doesn't care about that. She's been married for 20-something years. He doesn't love you. He loves his kids. Yeah. So five days after Anne is murdered, she, Mary, calls the police in Hoboken to report a threatening phone call. And they said that she said an unknown man called her and said, ha-ha, you're next, and hung up on her.
So shortly after Anne is in the ground, she moves into the house with the kids and everything. Yeah. You can't do that. Walter's sister, Patricia, said she was too pushy, too possessive, too domineering. And she said that the kids didn't want her there. She's barely older than them. I mean, it's tough. So then shortly before Christmas, she moves out.
And the relationship kind of ends at that point. That is because Walter found another chick. And this one wasn't good enough anymore. So he told her, take a hike. This guy pulls fucking trim like crazy. Good for him. I don't get it. He's an asshole, apparently. I'm not good at it. No. I could never do that. Wow. Never mind, 21-year-old. That many women? I found another one. Yeah. So Mary was working as a secretary. Right.
at Bear Stearns at the time, and she moved to a 30th floor apartment on East 95th Street, so Upper East Side in Manhattan. She found a woman roommate. It was a two-bedroom apartment for $1,000 a month on the Upper East Side. Good luck. That is wild. Yeah. That is hilarious. A grand? A grand. That is hilarious.
Unbelievable. So this is Walter's sister, Patricia, here. She says that it was hard on the kids their first holiday season without the mother. And then he's bringing this girl in and then she's leaving. And it's really, really strange. Patricia says she's very angry. I love how you have to stutter through that because you don't want to say sister Patricia. Sister Patricia. Yeah.
Hey, Sister Patricia over here. How New York are you? Yeah. Her name's Patricia Geetzee, too. Oh, Jesus Christ. G-I-Z-Z-I. So I'm like, this is hard. Because she's married to another gin over here. So, yeah, she said she's very upset. She says she wrote a poem to put her rage into words. Oh. She says, I was emotional while I was writing it. I felt a lot of anger, too, even though I was writing about Anne. He, whoever did it, is still free.
Because months have gone by. And so she writes up a poem here. You got it? Let's all go. She lit up our family with her happy smile. Now we have darkness and grief across the miles. We visit her grave day to day, and all we can do is hope and pray.
It's not that good. No, it's a shoebox Hallmark greeting level of poem. But I mean, she's got emotion in it there. Very Fred Durst level rapping. Oh, yeah. That's kind of a, yeah. Day and Ray. And Day and Ray. And he's got a whole very, very complicated rhyme scheme. Yeah.
So she wanted to publicize the poem so people would see it and feel compelled to come forward with information. Think about it. Yeah. She said they're not saying anything about the murder in the newspapers. It's discouraging. And the little bit that builds up, it builds up your hopes. So then she said, sometimes I feel I am grieving the most for I was the one that would like to boast, boast about a sister-in-law as wonderful as Anne. She was kind, generous and always had a helping hand.
This sounds like a fourth grader wrote it. I don't mean to be a dick, but it's good. It's very Adam Sandler in Mr. D. Yeah. It's a bad grading card. Roses are red, violets are blue. It's what it is. The words keep flowing, the questions in mind. Why this to her? It wasn't her time.
It's very night before Christmas. I feel so bad. I'm good. This is how she's processing her grief. Yeah. It's terrible. Well, she didn't need to put this out publicly, I guess. No. I wouldn't put any poetry out, especially grief poetry. Yeah. I hope you'll be caught. I know you're insane. You're rotten and cruel, whatever your name. I think someone wrote that about Jack the Ripper. So May 28th, 1983. It's 3 a.m.
And Mary Williams, Mary Claire Williams, is sitting in her apartment on the 30th floor on the Upper East Side, and she calls the police. Uh-oh. Yes. She said, I can't take the pressure anymore. It's about the murder of Anne Karas in Long Branch.
She had finished her conversation with police and they said, we're coming to the city to talk to you right now at 345 in the morning. We'll be right there. So then she called a lawyer that she used to work for while attending the secretarial classes at 4 a.m. And yeah, so she had kept in touch with him a little bit here and there. And so she needed his help. So she called him and said, you know, I'm in this. I'm in some shit. You got to need help here. So.
So 630 a.m. police call the lawyer from her apartment and they told him they were returning to Monmouth County with her. There were questions to answer and they said she hasn't been charged with anything at this point, but they want to talk to her and she has information about a murder. So then the cops are with her. She tells them a whole bunch of stuff and they say, will you make a phone call that we can record? She says, sure. So she calls Walter. Oh.
Yeah. She calls Walter. This is from the telephone call on May 29th. And I'll give you the script here. He says, hello. She says, hi. Hi, how you doing? You're not working today, she says. Walter says, no, no. Remember, I took a three day weekend. And she said, oh, boy. And he said, what? And she said, Billy, meaning this county investigator, called me back at my girlfriend's house. And he says, uh-huh. He was a little upset.
Walter says, yeah, she says, because I called him so late, you know, because I told him I'd like call him about nine o'clock. And he says, yeah, I called him about 1030. Yeah, she says. And he said that. And he said, well, where are you? And I said, I'm in Spring Lake. And he said, well, it's a little I'm a little tired. I'm a little tied up right now. It's a little late. And she says, and oh, my God, I'm so upset. And oh, fuck.
So she talked to an investigator is what she's saying. He says it's a game. He's playing a game just like he did with me. Remember, he said they wanted to see me and they never saw me. I thought about that after I left last night. Remember what they did with me? Remember that I said Billy and Long Branch Police Lieutenant Peter Johns both called and they said they wanted to see me. And she said, uh-huh. And he said, and how I would react. Right.
And she says, well, I remember that. My God, Walter. He said on the telephone, he said that he was making he was talking with a man named Riley, who's a police detective, and that he told him some interesting things and said, you know, Mary, you should really know this Riley. And Walter said, yeah, he's playing a game. You don't know Riley. And she said, Walter, that's one of the people I told. And then she stops. One of the people I told, he says, quote, you fucking idiot. You fucking idiot. Yeah.
That's his response.
You fucking idiot. So she says, what if he talks with Father Bradley? And she says, no. And Walter said, no, he can't. She said, Walt, he can talk with him. And he said, uh-huh. Who's Riley? She said, I don't know. He's some guy a friend of mine brought along. To where? When I met him for drinks one day. And he said, and you just blurted it out to him? She said, yeah, I kind of had a few drinks in me. What? You can get drunk and then just start talking about murder? Murders. He said, you fucking idiot. Ha ha ha.
Which is like his pet name for her at this point. He said, all right, just tell him, all right, here's the game. You've been in state because you were cheating with me, and then she got killed, and you're putting yourself through a guilt trip. You didn't go into any detail with this guy, did you? And she said, no, I didn't say a word. I just kind of said, yeah, I know a man named Riley. So he says, no, I mean to Riley, what did you say? She said, I told him the whole story.
Walter says, you fucking idiot. She doesn't get it so far. She does not get it at all. So he then says, you know, or she says, you know, what if they start talking to some more friends of mine and some people they know? And Walter said, what do they know? Yeah, that's a great question. Who have you told what? Who, what the fuck is happening? She said, about four people know. You fucking idiot. Nope, you dumb bitch at that point.
Went from you fucking idiot to you dumb bitch. That's incredible. He said, you have to keep your mouth shut from now on. And if anybody says anything, you just, you know, he starts that bullshit. You say, look, I'm on heavy fucking guilt trip. And in my mind, I already believed, you know, that I had something to do with it. You dumb bitch. You dumb fucking idiot bitch.
So he said she says, uh-huh. And she he says, OK, but in fact, I didn't. And Bill, I didn't, Billy. And I know I don't know what that means. Sure. I may have said something to these fucking people, but I may have been drunk out of my fucking mind. I was I was drunk out of my mind when I said that. And from what Walter had told me, I pieced it all together and I made myself the villain because I was on such a guilt trip.
Here's your story. I'm giving it to you. I'm on a guilt trip. That's what you tell him. I felt guilty. That's why I said I had an involvement in the murder. So she says, Walt, then what if, why would he say to me, listen, Mary, he said I better start thinking hard and do what's right to make things easier for myself. Listen, Walter, if he's getting too close to settling it, all right, my God, I think we ought to just, I think we ought to turn ourselves in because he'll make it easier on us.
And he says, sure. Then what? What? What does that do to my kids? And she said, I can't worry about your kids. I've got to worry about myself. If they're going to solve the case and get us. All right. That's then. Then we're just going to sit. That's just going to sit us in jail. And he says, you are going to spend the rest of your natural life. And so am I in fucking prison. If we open our mouths, if we shut up, the drunken boast in a fucking bar doesn't mean shit. You fucking idiot. You dumb bitch. Dumb bitch.
He said if he had that much conclusive evidence, he'd be down to Spring Lake to pick you up. Understand that? She says, he's let me tell you something. And Walt says, he's pushing us to the limit. She said, you know what I think he's doing? Walter said he's and she cuts him off and says, I think he knows everything and he wants to help me out. And so he's not. And she said, he says, sure. And they said coming to get me. And Walter says, sure.
She says he's not going to he's going to let me sweat it out and he's going to maybe give me until Tuesday and come get me. I can't be embarrassed like that at my job and have to have him pick me up there. It's murder. Your job doesn't matter anymore. I think I'd be a lot easier if I went to him now. She said he says, don't do it, Mary, please, hon. Don't do it. You'd be a fool if you did it. We both know it just be fucking idiotic as you are a fucking idiot.
So she says, my God, Walter, they got to know this is the cops are listening to all of this. He says, no, they don't have to know anything. They've just been fucking fishing. Somebody could have just went in and said, look, I don't know how true this is. She was a drunk son of a bitch. And she kept admitting this. If you pull yourself together right now and say, no, fuck it. How I Billy, how I was drunk is drunk as a fucking skunk. I don't know what the I don't know what the fuck I said. You're home free. They can't do anything.
And she said, well, he mentioned, he said they were checking things out on Visa too, his Visa card. He said, so, so, I have a knife here. Don't worry about it. Keep your mouth shut. She said, I can't. What? And he said, keep your mouth shut and we're okay. She said, yeah, but the knife that, and he says, Mary, shut the, shut the fuck up basically. She says, when you took me to Woodbridge, that knife wasn't the same that's on the Visa bill. He said, it doesn't matter. She said, they can go to Herman's and check out the knives and there's,
And he said, so so what? I'll say, hey, the fucking girl must have made a mistake. I don't know anything. Mary, please, please. I beg you, please. I'll say she must have rung up the wrong fucking product. The wrong night. Yeah, that's all. She said, Walter, I don't know what to do. I think it would just be a hell of a lot easier if we just. And he said, Mary, don't do this. He said, went and told him.
And then Walter says, Mary, please. What more can I say? But please, we have made a fucking mistake and we're both paying for it now. Let's not pay any more and make other people pay your parents, your work, your boss, every fucking body. Think about those people. Think about my kids. We've done one fucking injustice. But if we shut our fucking mouths and just say, yeah, I may have boasted, Billy, but, you know, come on. I was fucking drunk out of my mind. Didn't know what I was saying.
She says, all right, look, my girlfriend's coming. Listen, I got to call Billy to meet him. He says, uh-huh. She says, I'll have I'll call you back. I'll have I'll have to call you back after I have a meeting with him. He says, Mary, please. I'm begging you with all my heart and all of my fucking soul. Please don't be fucking stupid. Keep your mouth shut, please.
She says, all right, listen, you're going to be home. Listen, stay home. He says, I'll be home all fucking day. I'm not going anywhere. I ain't going nowhere. And she says, all right. He says, I've got the runs like you have now, but we got to keep strong, okay? What? Like he wants to run, not be shitting himself. What? When did they talk about that? Look, I got the shits real bad. Just like you. Just like you, you dumb shit. He said, we got to be strong. This is the time. This is the one last fucking push.
She said, all right, well, Walter, let's say it's the one last push. Okay, but we don't know what they have, okay? And let's say he spills it out in front of me. Remember when you told me and you went over it with me and if they come to me and they tell me they've got this case solved and solved and then here's how it was done and here's what you did and here's – remember you planned all that? He said, yeah. Yeah.
Idiot. Who's the dummy now? Who's the dummy now? That's what I mean. And she said, Walter, you dumb fucking idiot. She said, and you said we both deny everything. Uh-huh. She said, if you talk, I'll deny. If I talk, you'll deny. Uh-huh. She says, Walter, if he knows everything and he says, look, you better just tell us because we'll go easier on you. If they do that, she said, quote, and then Walter said, they're not going to go easier, honey.
You're not going to get a deal. You're talking about life, life, life, the rest of your fucking life. Murder stays murder. Murder stay murder, as they say on the wire. No deal, no nothing. And you can't claim insanity or any other bullshit. You went with me to get the knife. I mean, you went with me to get the jacket, the hood. We planned it. It was perfect. We did it, and it's over. Oh, you idiot. You fucking idiot. You stupid.
said what Walter? You can't say now that you didn't know what the fuck was happening. If he spills the whole thing he tells you don't say Billy I don't know what the fuck you're talking about honestly. You have to be cool. You can be. I know you can. You're tough. Now baby pull through it. She's just pointing at the phone. See guys I told you. This is good tape. Tape fucking rolling. You can see it going. She says what? Let's repeat that. She said what? What? What?
I don't know. Pull through what? I don't know. And he said, pull through it. You can do it. I think he's pushing you to the edge. They haven't got enough to get an indictment or you'd be fucking indicted already on this guy's statement. You could be indicted. OK, they they can go get you to a grand jury and convince them that you've got enough involvement to indict you. OK, she says, uh-huh.
He says, and they haven't, which means they don't know for sure. And they need you to collaborate what you fucking said to this guy. You could say, man, I don't know what the fuck I said. I was so fucking drunk and I did some drugs and some shit. You know, I just took some drugs. She said, yeah, but you know, I don't do drugs. He said, you can say it. You can say anything and they can't prove it. Otherwise, just say drugs. I don't fucking care.
She says, all right, listen, I'll call you back. And he says, be cool, honey, please. You can do it. I know you can. Okay. She said, all right. And he says, okay, keep it tight. Be good. Bye bye. Keep it tight. Your story, not your ass. And she says, bye. So that's idiot. The cops are like, well, okay, we know everything that happened now. That was easy. Yeah. So what ended up, what happened is Mary stabbed.
And 23, 22 times. By the way, how long were they married? 22 years. 22 years. That's pretty amazing, isn't it? Did she do it on purpose? No. No? Just a coincidence. No, she says later she just fucking... She just lost her mind. She remembered him saying, make sure she's dead, make sure she's dead so she can't identify you. So she was fucking hacking at her until she was pretty sure about it. So...
May 29th is the next day after the phone call. Walter is lured to the L&M Diner in Ocean Township by a phone call from Mary. Meet me at the diner. When he got there, he's arrested, of course. Yeah. So they arrest him and they charge him with murder, obviously. They also charge her with murder, too. I mean, she did it.
Right. So the police say she's the one who did it. You can't just let her go. They're each held on a million dollars bond or bail. The prosecutor said they are not seeking the death penalty because the crime was committed before the death penalty law was signed in New Jersey at that time.
His attorney is pleading for reduced bail. Yeah. Yeah. He said that his client needs to be home with his children. I don't know. He said he's got the runs. He's got the runs. There's a lot going on. And a man who owns two pieces of property in the state is unlikely to flee. I don't know. Murder. Yeah. It's a big one. Yeah. You'll leave your New Jersey property. He's losing both no matter what the outcome. It doesn't matter. Yeah. He's going to have to pay his fucking lawyer here. Now, the lawyer she called who she was friends with and worked for can't represent her because he's only licensed in New York.
So she has to get another lawyer. And they said that her new lawyer said, I don't think she's resigned to anything yet. I don't think she fully realizes what she's up against. Yeah, there's no way she knows. And they made her seem like you're working with us. This is your part of this. You're doing great. And she even way to hear what she says about that. I'll leave it to that. So now the kids end up being separated from each other. The Karis kids.
The 12 year old boy is sent to stay with an aunt and the 14 year old daughter to the family of a school friend in Oceanport school for us so she can stay in the same school. So I don't think it's good for them to be split up though. No and I don't like I don't like going to a friend rather than family. They're 12 and 14. Yeah they're 12 and 14. That's minor. Yeah. Minor that 18. That's crazy. So now a friend of Mary's here said that this is the young lady who's she was like a junior in high school while this is happening.
She said that she saw Mary a few weeks before and she said, you never would have suspected anything was wrong at all. She said she doesn't believe that her friend could have committed this brutal murder. Real. Even though she admitted to it. She said so. Still doesn't think she did it. She said, if I believe she did it, it would be like my own mother did it. Oh.
She was like my older sister, and I know she wouldn't be capable of such a thing. Couldn't even. Nope. She said, I'm going to visit her in jail as soon as I can. She said, I feel like she was there whenever I needed her, so I'm going to be there for her. If she did do it, she must have been in some state of mind. She was a very easy person, an animal type on the court, but sweet off the court. So, yeah. They said she's angered by reports that her friend had a fascination with men in uniform. She said, I couldn't believe when I read that about her. No way was she a cop lover. Uh,
Or followed uniform guys. No way. Okay. So she just happened to want to fuck this guy. Yeah. So anyway, they figure out that Walter bought a knife and a sporting goods store and charged it to his fucking credit card like an idiot. Oh my God. Not even cash. That's how dumb are you? He bought the murder weapon on credit? On his own credit card. Oh my God. Dipshit. And on that night, he had Mary wait, hiding behind a dumpster,
In a parking lot by the movie theater. For the mother of his children. For the mother. He said, yeah, she'll be walking by. I'll leave. And then she jumped out and started stabbing the shit out of Anne. Wow. She fled the scene and went to Atlantic City to establish an alibi. She threw the murder weapon into the Atlantic Ocean. Really? Yeah. Which, I mean, that's the first smart thing they've done.
Her purse, which was taken, that was they took it. She said, make sure you take the purse because then it'll look like a robbery. But 22 stab wounds and look like a robbery. Looking for a way to simplify your family's back to school journey? Have lunch with Pack-It. Pack-It freezable lunch boxes and bags are designed with EcoFreeze technology, patented freezable gel that is built into the walls of the bag.
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That's cvs.com slash stories. CVS, making healthier happen together. We get support from Dove. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer, host of the Wondery Podcast. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. Let me cut to the chase. Did you know that in many states across the U.S., it's still not illegal to discriminate against people based on the way their hair grows out of their head? To deny black folks from jobs and opportunities because they have braids, locks, twists, or bantu knots? That's misogynistic.
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And we'll find out what she did with the stuff that she had in the purse there. So she pleads guilty. Yeah. She's going to plead guilty. She pleads guilty to the stabbing and she has to testify against him. Right.
So she's described in the newspaper as, quote, the pale 21-year-old Williams admitted to Superior Court Judge John A. Riccardi that she and Walter Karras conspired to kill his wife on the evening of March 20th, 1982. Williams stabbed the 43-year-old volunteer worker 22 times with a hunting knife, according to police. And she said he planned the whole thing, she said. She said that she...
will testify truthfully and all that kind of thing. They said this is in sharp contrast to the jovial attitude she displayed at her arraignment where she was like laughing and giggling and shit. They were like, tone that shit down.
This is insane. What are you doing, ma'am? So in return for her guilty plea and testifying, they told her that the felony murder and armed robbery would be dismissed at the time of her sentencing and she'd be sentenced only for the like a regular murder here. She's charged with armed robbery because she took all the shit obviously here. So they're going to recommend a prison sentence of 30 years with up to 15 years of no parole eligibility.
on the murder and conspiracy charge. That's what the prosecution is going to recommend. The judge tells her, even though you're pleading to this and that's your deal, it's up to the court. So you might get life. So that's on the table. Are you cool with that? And she said, yeah. So I can't go home. Yeah. What else am I going to fucking do at this point? I'm kind of in deep at this point. They said, if you realize that if the court sentences you to 30 years, you'd not be released from prison for a minimum of 15. Do you understand that? And she said, yes.
And they said, are you doing this because you want to plead guilty? Is anyone making you do it? And she said, no, it's just my conscience.
So there she is in court, spills it all. Here, five hours of testimony. Oh, boy. And during his trial, they said it ranged from tearful confessions, girlish laughter, coy blushes, and downcast guilty glances. The whole gamut. Wow. She met him on the PATH train in fall of 81. She tells the whole story. She said when she left him in Christmas of 82, she said, I didn't love him anymore, but I just couldn't handle the guilt.
So, yeah, she said that helping police implicate him was, quote, fun, she said.
She's not right in the head. No. She said, it's like playing cop and I always wanted to be a cop. No, it's not. It's like they were making it. No. It's like you murdered somebody and you teamed up with the cops to get your accomplice. It's like when Bubbles thought he was a cop and they're like, you're not a fucking, we pay you $20 to get info. Just go put some hats on people's heads. Yeah. Wow, that's wild. So they said that his attorney said that she was,
planned the murder herself and always with the intention of implicating him. She said, he said she considered it a game.
Yeah. So, but we know from the phone call that's not it. No. We planned it. He said those three words together. The prosecution, by the way, this is fucking hilarious. When they close their case, they play the tape and then say, prosecution rests. That's the end of their presentation. Like, oh, by the way, the hammer is down now. Yeah. We rest. Peace out, bitches. We're going to go lay down. Boom. What's up?
We're not even going to cross anybody. You know what? I'm going to get a fucking sandwich. You guys carry on. You guys do what you got to do. Don't care. Let me know when you're ready. Don't care. So she said between February 16th and March 20th, 1982, they began to figure out different methods of killing Anne.
The ones they didn't take were shooting her. It's kind of cliche. Staging a bathtub accident. Yeah. That's tough. Killing her with an overdose of drugs and devising a mechanical failure in her car's brakes. Yeah. So she'd pass out and careen off the road into the ocean. These are all just cold case files for a season. Yeah, that's all. Then they said armed robbery and a stabbing ought to do it. Wow.
Wow. Nobody will see that. He coached her how to use the knife, even taped the handle with electrical tape so it wouldn't slip and she wouldn't cut herself. He told her what's going to happen. Oh, he told her exactly what to do. There's going to be blood everywhere. You've got to hang on to this thing. She was to wait by the movies and he was going to leave her momentarily. He said he was going to look like the perfect husband in front of everyone's eyes so he would take her out frequently to establish that.
They go out all the time. So this is normal that we do. Yeah, this is the thing. And that's just the one time they go out. Look at them working on their relationship. Isn't that sweet? What a good guy. Yeah. So during the stabbing, she said all that ran through her mind was Walter's words to her. He just kept saying, make sure she's dead. Make sure she's dead. Don't talk to her because then if she doesn't die, she'll be able to identify you. Make sure she's dead. And they said, did you hear her make any sound? And she said she gurgled.
She said, I didn't want her to be killed. I just wanted him to get a divorce. That's what she said. She headed for Atlantic City after that, threw her bloody clothes in the ocean, which seems like a weird place to do it. Clothes. I'd just throw it in an Atlantic City casino dumpster. Yeah.
There's worse shit in there. Just drop it on the corner in Atlantic City. There's fucking people in those. There's blood down there. Yeah, there's like prostitutes in there and shit. People just threw them away when they were done with them. It's awful. There's blood close there. She said she took out $60 in cash out of Ann's pocketbook along with a gold crucifix and a Bic lighter. She said because it worked and I smoke. So it was useful to me. So I kept it. She said she threw the bag in the ocean, checked into the Ritz in Atlantic City and went out to the Playboy Club to gamble.
She said she won in gambling and paid for her Hertz rent a car in cash the next day. She tried to get the blood stains off the rug and steering wheel of the car, but she said then she gave up. She said, either it's my blood or it's not. I don't care. I just want to be caught. She recalled thinking.
So, wow. She said that he kept his distance from her for several weeks for decorum's sake. She said, oh, he drilled this into my head good. He said that if his in-laws, especially his brother-in-law, Tony Gaeta. Tony's a bad man. If he thought we had anything to do with it, he'd kill us both. Both. Yeah. No, Tony Gaeta is going to fucking kill you if you kill his sister and your friend. He doesn't care.
Yeah, he's dealing with a huge, crazy Italian family. It's not good. You don't kill one of the sisters. This guy was seated in the front row, too.
Like, you bet your ass I would have killed you. I was going to get you. Still might. I'm going to be honest with you. You're still here, ain't you? I'm still here. I don't know. So she said on April 10th, which was less than three weeks after the murder, and when, quote, we were in the clear, that's when she started spending time with him. In the clear? In the clear. It's been 20 days since the murder. 20 days. We're good. It's not solved. Yep. They first saw each other by arranging an accidental meeting. Oh.
While he took his children to the Museum of Natural History in New York City. Just be there. We'll be there at this time. Oh, hey, you. And then she then accompanied him to a Lions Club convention in Atlantic City the last weekend in May. But she said, but could not attend the social events because he said, I don't want you to be seen with me because it's too soon. Like, you're my wife. It was very obvious. In June, she began to live most of the week at their home.
And they even took a vacation in the Poconos, which we've done. Jesus Christ. We know what that's about from your stupid opinions. That's like a fuck mountain. Yeah, you should definitely listen to your stupid opinions. There's a thing on the Poconos and everything else you could think of. The summer after the murder, while the children were away at camp. Wow. They had a nice time. She did tell a bunch of people about the murder during her stay at the house. And she said she told two different priests during confession.
You can't have a chick who's this Catholic help you kill somebody because she will tell a priest that she's going to tell a priest. It's just it. Yeah. She said that's that's fucking funny. So when he learned of her confessions, he said, quote, you fucking idiot. You know, priests can quit, don't you?
Like, he might not be a priest next week. Right. Fucking jackass. So by Christmas of 82, she said she was ready to leave, partly because of discipline problems she was encountering with the children. Oh, she couldn't. It's almost like you killed their mother and they're upset about it. It's almost like they now have mental problems. Weird. They don't have a mom. Strange.
A stranger is telling them what to do. A stranger who's barely more than a child is telling them what to do. Strange. Taking their mom's place. Telling us what to do. She said, I said to him, I'll always love you. And he said, I'll always love you. You know the normal things you say when you're breaking up, she said. She said, and I said, we'll always have this thing, meaning the murder, to keep us together. Holy shit. And they asked her, of course, again, how do you feel about him now? And she said, I'm just angry at him. Yeah.
So his defense is that she's a vindictive young woman who wove a web of deceit around her former lover after he broke up with her. I mean, yeah, that's the only path you've got. She said the admissions on tape. How do you explain that? We're only platitudes uttered to a confused young girl who was constantly harassing him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He went through. This is what we did to kill my wife. What are you talking about? That's a platitude. Yeah, yeah. Holy shit. They called the 15 year old daughter to the stand. Oh, fuck. Which is crazy. She said she received a 4 a.m. telephone call shortly after her father broke up with Mary from Mary.
And she answered the phone and she said, quote, your father killed your mother. That's wild. And then she called back and apologized later and said, no, I know I was just upset. That's why I said that. She wrote to Christina, quote, I didn't mean what I said. I was just angry and upset for the way you and your little Walter treated me while I was dating your father.
She describes that she loves, I love your father more than most people. And the love we share is more than most people have in a lifetime. And she said to put your mother's murder in proper perspective and let the memories of your mom live on inside you. And then Christina said, the last line, don't feel cheated for the time you didn't have with your mom. Oh my. That is fucking weird. Gross. Super weird. So yeah, the defense attorney said, listen,
Yeah. She's fucking nuts. They said they took her to a psychiatrist over here, right? Okay. So they said she's nuts. She can't be trusted because she's crazy.
She said that presented psychiatric testimony. Dr. John P. Motley said after two clinical interviews with her, with the murderess, as the paper called her, he diagnosed her as suffering from borderline personality disorder, which that sounds about right. He explained it this way, which is a really weird way of explaining. There's a definite way to explain this. He said, quote, it means she's on the borderline of being pretty sick, which is not what it means. Yeah.
She projected the responsibility of the murder of Mrs. Karras entirely on Mr. Karras. At no time does she indicate she was acting other than doing it for him.
He said such denial and projection is consistent with her disorder. And he believes that Mary should not be punished for the murder. Or she she believes that she shouldn't be punished for the murder and that she shows no remorse or concern for the deceased. I agree with that. Yeah, she certainly doesn't. She was more upset that the kids were mean to her. Yeah. And she killed a person. So they said that demonstrates the skewed perception symptomatic of borderline disorder. Other manifestations of the illness are on display like narcissism, hostility, resentment, feelings of depravity.
dependency, paranoid fantasies, and the tendency toward intense and unstable interpersonal relationships. Yeah. She's super fucked up in that she like... They're the ones that push you to fight. Yeah. And when she gets upset, she...
She goes the fucking furthest, furthest extreme that she can go to stick with the Sopranos. She's the she's the girlfriend who hit Tony with the steak. The Mercedes. She wanted him to come back and punch her. That's what she wants. Yeah, it's a person. Now she wants the drama. It could be anybody. But yeah, that's how it goes. Fucking steak. Yeah. I love when he walks in and Junior says, what are you eating steak as he walks by? Smells of that's the funniest fucking life.
So the doctor went on to say she stated that she had no choice, that Walter planned it, but she had to carry it out. And the doctor said it is impossible to determine if
you know, as Mary is accurately, accurately perceived and related the events. So we don't know. Walter testifies. Unbelievable. He's got to, he has to. Awesome. The only thing he could do. I wish I could have been. That would have been watching him. If only I wasn't just one year old. Yeah, that would have been, if only we weren't fucking babies at the time. So the, he details his affair. He said that she came up to him.
In 1981, she, quote, she walked up to me and whispered in my ear, are you a cop? And that's how they got started. I don't know. Watch your dick. Cops won't bother dick. He said, quote, quite honestly, I was 42 and she was a very young girl and I was quite flattered by her advances toward me. Yeah, that is nice. Yeah. That sounds pretty good. He described her as a flighty young girl who contrived to meet up with him as often as possible during their daily commute. He said she was making a pass for me.
So, yeah, he said that this affair contributed to his straining marriage. Well, no shit. Yeah, if you're fucking someone. He said, I had taken an attitude. I was disinterested. I wasn't much of a father around the house. And then his wife told me to get out of the house. So he checked into a YMCA in North Jersey. Oh, God. You can stay there? Back then, yeah. It's fun to stay at the YMCA. Yeah.
Yeah. That was a whole song. That's lyrics for sure, but I didn't know you could lyric. No, no. People used to stay at the Y. It was like a cot? Yeah, yeah. You could stay in the Y. It was like a cheap hotel. Jesus Christ. Yeah, back in the day. They don't do that shit anymore. No. Back in the day, like the 50s and 60s, that was like where people would go. That's gross. Because that's a cheap place to go. I got a planner's wart from the YMCA. Ugh. Yeah, the Y is not where you want to sleep. No. But he said she spent, he said he never slept there though. Instead, he spent several nights sleeping in railroad cabooses.
Like a hobo. Yeah. Yeah. He went to sleep in rail cars. He said that when Mary learned that he was homeless, quote, it was like Christmas. She got very excited and told me to bring my clothes. She said she couldn't have me sleeping on the railroad. Yeah. He said, I told her she introduced him to a friend as her boyfriend. And he said, quote, I told her that that was not so. I was not her boyfriend. We were friends and we were having a relationship.
We're friends who fuck, okay? I'm not your boyfriend. You're her boyfriend. Yeah. He said that he lived with Williams from November 81 to January 82 when he moved back in with his wife. And that's when she called her and called her a tramp and a whore. And he said that he disputed everything she said. He said he never gave her a pre-engagement ring, which she said he did. I know.
He also said that he had little to do with Williams finding an apartment and that made their meetings more convenient. He said that he never promised to divorce his wife or anything like that. He does admit that he went to a store in lower Manhattan with her to purchase a ski jacket, but said he did it only as a favor for her and he hadn't seen her in more than a month. So he went. She asked him to meet her after work with his car because she had to buy a large package that would be too clumsy to take home on the train. Uh-huh.
He thought the jacket was a gift for her brother. He said, just as we were getting ready to leave the store, she decided to buy a ski mask because her brother would get a kick out of it, quote unquote.
So she testified that they purchased the jacket and ski mask for her to wear during the murder. That's what she had testified. This is what she was supposed to wear. No, I was just giving people some gifts. He said she just wanted to go shopping. He said he brought her to Manhattan for an abortion. He said, quote, she told me she was pregnant. I was a real hero. I asked her what she was going to do about it. She told me she wanted to have an abortion.
And she said it was the first of two pregnancies there. And she said that was a topic of heated telephone conversation between Mary and Ann. Sure. She didn't like that. Yeah. Ann found out. Ann found out. Oh, jeez.
I guess she called one time, Mary, and Ann answered. Walter said, quote, my wife asked if it was that bitch on the phone. Then she grabbed the telephone, called her a tramp and a few other words. She went at her in a way I've never really seen Ann do before. She did say she would wipe the streets of Oceanport with her. And then Ann went silent. I got to say, that's fucking great. Like, I'd never seen that. He was probably like, oh, my dick got rock hard when she started saying it. Well,
We fucked for hours. Yeah. And then Ann looked at him and said, quote, you had an abortion with her? And yeah, quote, Ann was really religious and it really messed her mind up. His wife then told Ann of the trouble she had experienced in conceiving children and then hung up. Ann was very upset that Mary had an abortion with my child.
which is the opposite of what Carmela would have been like. I'll kick the fucking I'll kick that baby out your ass. You don't need an abortion. I'll do it. I'll do it myself because that was her all things. You're so scared. Tony was going to do that. So and and was upset that the his baby was aborted. That's crazy. Yep. So anyway, he said that basically that he never he had no part of this. It's all her. And I don't know what the hell she's talking about.
I knocked her out twice. I'm sorry I made her crazy. Yeah, that's it. So, I don't know. She was just making up stories and plugging holes, he said, which is a weird way to put it. You can't say that.
No. A, you've had abortions from having so much sex with this man, and the wife had so many holes in her. Yeah. You can't say anything about holes. No holes. That's what I mean. Jesus. Terrible. The prosecutor said to him, you wanted to play this game and keep playing this game, so somewhere along the line you could get the brass ring and go to bed with her. She is terrorizing you and your family and you still want to spend your weekends with her. Is that right, you fucking idiot? Right. Verdict comes in. Seven-man, five-woman jury. Oh.
And six and a half hours of deliberation, they asked for the tape again to listen to. Yeah. And they're like, let's listen to that again. Can you get us a sick beat, too, that we can scratch over it? Yeah, yeah. It's like a mixtape would be good because I want to hear different shit.
He is found guilty of complicity to commit murder and armed robbery, felony murder and conspiring to commit murder, felony murder and armed robbery. So all those multiple counts. Bad guy. Bad counts. Found guilty on everything. Now, the sentencing for him, you, sir, may fuck off 70 years. Jesus. No parole for 35.
He's 44. He's going to be. That's 79. Yeah, that's not good. Good luck, Chief. You're not fucking any 21-year-old Zen, I'll tell you that much.
So the prosecutor said, obviously, I'm happy with the verdict. I think the evidence indicated unquestionably that he was guilty of the crime. Therefore, I think the system worked. Yeah. He's never getting pussy ever again. Never again. It's over. It's all over for especially not young pussy. Yeah. Not young pussy anymore. I don't think he's going to even get his own age pussy. No more new pussy. No. No. He'll be like, well, you just got out of jail for murder. You murdered your wife? I'm never fucking you. Then again, if he's still alive, there's not a lot of men alive at that age that can fuck it all. Yeah.
His defense attorney maintains his client was caught in a web of deceit woven around him by a spurned and vengeful young woman who decided to implicate him in the murder after he began seeing another woman. So she gets sentenced as well.
And she gets you, ma'am. They fuck off 30 years in prison. No parole for 15. So the judge went with the prosecuting guideline and she went to the Women's Correctional Institution in Clinton. Oh, my God. Not good.
The time. Oh, boy. Yeah, not great. And she's up eligible in 15 years. She's out. Oh, she's out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Way out. And out there. Oh, yeah. That's what I mean. She's wacko and out of the place. To talk something from your stupid opinion. She's out out. Yeah. Oh, boy. She's out out. So there you go. Oh, my God. There is Long Branch, New Jersey. What a story. Keep an eye out for...
She's in her 60s now. She changed her name, right? It's pretty common. Mary Williams? Yeah. There's a million Mary Williams. That's a dangerous broad. Oh, she's dangerous. Oh, boy. And he's like, wow, I found someone who's dumb enough to commit my murder for me, basically. And he's a fucking awful scumbag. And I can call her a dumb bitch to her face. And she's like, you fucking idiot. She's like, I know. I know. No. No.
God damn it. Fucking crazy. If you're 21, you have the power. You have the power. Don't listen to him. Especially if you have a vagina and you're 21, you have even more power. You're the winner. Yeah. Don't care how much money he has. You're still the breadwinner. You're still the breadwinner. If you like that show, tell the world about it. Leave a review on wherever the hell you listen to podcasts. Whatever it is.
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And also new episodes of bonus stuff every other week. This week, the Otani gambling scandal. They just pushed under the rug like it was nothing. It's all his interpreter. Don't worry about it. And other gambling scandals that got pushed under the rug. And then small town murder bonus will be a rabbit
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In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.
Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.
And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.