The Perfect Myth • EP212
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Season two, episode 12, Between Order and Randomness. Okay, here's the quick rundown is that Nathan tells Haley about his past. Oh, gross. But Haley continues to keep her emails with Chris a secret. Sorg. That's a good callback. Karen decides to make Lucas's life as miserable as possible until he takes the heart test.

And she asks Andy over while his house is in contractors' hands and Dan hosts and even cooks for a dinner with Keith and Jules. Ooh, baby, there is a lot of cat and mouse in this episode.

I don't know how many people were super waiting for this episode in particular, but I really enjoyed this episode. It's picking up from a lot of the drama that we left off with, with Anna and Peyton in the last episode and Felix and Brooke, a lot of drama with Keith and Dan and Deb and Jules. And I mean...

Guys, that dinner scene when Keith and Dan, when Dan invites Jules and Keith over for dinner with Deb and then he's just playing cat and mouse the whole night. Okay, we'll get into it. He's such a predator. He is. He's so conniving. I know. But he does it so well that it's just so delicious. He's a good villain. He's such a good villain. And you will get into that. Well, you guys will get into it. But

Because I have a flight to catch, so I'm only here with you guys for a few minutes. Give us our marching orders, boss. You tell us what you want us to talk about. Yeah, what do you want us to talk about? Listen, this was the episode where Anna said that thing that we talked about in the last episode. Look at all these people. They figured out what they want, and they managed to find it. So...

I just thought that was just so interesting. And you know, you can listen to our last episode, but okay. Wait, what did we call it? What did we call it? The myth. What was it? The perfect myth. We said it should be the title. The perfect myth. Oh God. Perfect myth. This idea. And we all do it. We all do it. Brooke does her Norma Rae in this episode with the lobsters. Lobsters. Oh my God. Yours. Yours.

It was hilarious. I totally forgot about the lobster. It's so good. I got crabs at Carl's. Good God. He's like, I could get crabs anytime I want. When you guys are all threatening to quit. Gross. Oh my God. That kind of slurs. Doesn't mean what you think it means, sir. Nope. Not at all. Lucas seems to be always stuck with people marriage bombing him. Like, big surprise, surprise. We're getting married.

I feel like we need, I feel like we need, um, uh, Oh my God. I feel like we need a montage of Lucas's face. Every time someone tells him we're getting married or we got married, please. That's what we want. And, uh, this little fun thing. This was the appearance of the phrase Haley Bob, which the first time we ever heard this and Lindsay McKeon says it as Taylor. Um, but the thing was in the script, it was Haley Bob. Like it was a little nickname. Yeah.

And this is a very little known fact because I don't know how at some point in the writer's room, it spun out and into somebody decided Bob should be Haley's middle name as like a joke, as like, I don't know, just because why not? Lucas Eugene, Haley Bob. And so because the way that she said it, they were like, well, she said Haley Bop, but everybody went, oh, no, no, nobody will ever notice. We'll change it to Bob. Right.

And so it showed even on the subtitles on the TV, because sometimes I have those on when we're watching together because I don't want to have it up too loud. And it said Haley Bob, but I knew. It's so weird, Joy. It's so weird. Isn't it so weird? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, as someone that gave my daughter a boy name, I appreciate it. I appreciate that kind of like dual masculine feminine energy. But totally Bob lacks formality. And Haley is such like a Robert. I couldn't have been a Robert. Right. Come on. Right.

Hayley Robert. That's a lot of first names, baby. It is. I know. So that's kind of fun. Bob. That's the tattoo we should all get. Just like, so it's so random and non-sequitur. People are like, what? But my dad's name is Bob. So then people will be like, you got your dad's name tattooed on your body? Is that weird? Did he feel like it was a nod to him? He was just like, thank you. I think so.

Nope. That's funny. That's when you know that the writers are working till like two o'clock in the morning because someone got punchy and was like, you know, it'll be funny. This'll be really great. Cool. Oh my gosh. Well, friends, I have a flight to catch today, so I'm not going to be in this whole episode, but I love you guys and talk amongst yourselves. We've got our orders. See you soon. Bye baby. Be safe. Bye. Friends, we all.

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The constant back and forth and the anchoring, really, of the tension in this episode between what Dan is doing to Keith, Jules, and Lucas, and Deb, and what Taylor is doing to Haley and Nathan...

It is. Can I just tell you the only safe space in this whole episode was Brooke and Felix. Like they were the only like gentle space in the whole episode. Okay, well, so let's start at the beginning. Like Brooke is getting, is this her first job? I think it's Brooke's first ever job. I love that.

I love that. And it's looking at Carl's Crab Shack. Your first job should be embarrassing. That just seems like part of the deal. I also just love the start. She's so unwilling to,

to give up. She is relentless and willing to be open and say, listen, this is the reason I need this job. I'm not giving up my car. You know, I'm super, I'm great with people. Just trust me. I'll be a good hire. And he says, well, you know, you can't be a waitress. I have a PR job and she's so excited. Honestly, just like, oh, PR. That's, that's what I'm an expert at. I'm fantastic.

at this. Also, I look great in red was my favorite of Brooke's. The silver lining of the whole situation. What was your first job? God, I had so really early on. I started being a babysitter for kids all in my neighborhood. I was always taking care of other people's kids. I eventually became, you know, like a counselor in training and a camp counselor. And

But I would have to. I can totally see you as one of the real babysitter club girls. Like, oh my, it just like hit me. I loved those books. Yeah, I bet you did. You were definitely like the cool one. All right. I see it. Yeah. Yeah. One of the two little boys that I eventually was like closer to being a nanny than a babysitter for when I was in high school invited me to his wedding. Oh.

My neighborhood kids were just, I know they were just the sweetest. But job, job, like, because watching kids was fun for me. I had to do job jobs working for my dad every summer.

And I was so mad. I was like, oh, everyone's going to the mall. And I have to like run film and edit stuff and, you know, go to the photo lab and hold reflectors and repaint floors and take out the trash. Like my dad was like, oh, you're the boss's kid. You think you're getting any privileges? I'm going to give you all this.

Jobs nobody wants to do. And I did them. I was basically like a PA for years every summer working at the studio. That makes so much sense. I mean, that's kind of how jobs used to work. You would apprentice under someone in your family until you became a master yourself. It's probably why you're a good director, because you know exactly what you want to look at.

Yeah, that's true, actually. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's a... I wish I hadn't been, I wish I hadn't been such a salty teen and I'd actually paid attention to the technicality of cameras. People are like doing like Vogue shoots. It's like super glamorous and awesome. and, and,

And I was just looking around like, I can't believe I have to be here. And now people will say, oh, well, you know, your dad's a photographer. So how do I, how do I reset the ISO on my camera? And I'm like, I don't know of what you speak. I don't know what that means. I wasn't paying attention. I know how to set up a shot, but I have no idea how a camera works. I'm so sorry. Yeah. There's so sorry, dad. Maybe there's technology.

You've got like 340 more jobs in you. Yeah. I got a job. You could work in Virginia when you were 15 if you had a worker's permit. And so literally, like, the second I was able to work, I filled out whatever paperwork I could because I was about that money, honey. That's like...

what I was into. Oh yeah. And the place where all of the like cool dudes worked was the sports authority. And I, I was like, well, I want to be there. Um, because I feel like it was all the dudes on like, isn't that terrible that I just wanted to work with the dudes were whatever. I get it. Um, it was like all the track team and the soccer players and they were like cool and you know,

So I went and I applied for a job and the guy that worked there was so gross, smelly old Jim. He had this toupee with like the glue would run down his head and he was so mean. And I would get in trouble all the time because I never did add on sales. They would have secret shoppers and they're like, you have to do an add on sale, Hillary. And so I'd always be scored really poorly. But I just think add on sales are tacky. Like if someone wants to come in for a pair of shoes, I'm,

I'm not going to offer. That's all they want. Come on. Don't ruin someone's day. And and so I started carrying around whistles because I was like, if I have to do an ad on sale, I'll just start doing whistles. And so that was like my thing. I'm like, do you want a whistle with that pair of bike shorts? But it was a creep job for a young girl because there was guys there were like guys that would come in and be like, hey, where are the Speedos?

And then they'd like call you into the dressing room to be like, how does this look? And you're just like, man, I don't know. I'm a kid. I don't want to look at that. No. And then in that shopping complex, this was like a major scandal. There was a guy that was obsessed with like teenage girls feet and he would go from shop to shop and like want to look at your feet. And it was so weird. I had like one friend that worked at the Staples and another friend.

that worked at like the supermarket and we'd all compare notes we're like is the foot guy back girls it's scary for teenage girls to go out into the workforce i mean we had a felon that worked in our back room who like said he's like oh no i definitely murdered this guy but i got off on a technicality and he was always like i've said this like he was like you look like nikki kidman

For girls to go out into the workforce, it is frightening. Yeah. Boys just get to go to work. Yeah.

Girls have to go into environments where they're under threat. Yeah. And people, some people will roll their eyes and say that's an exaggeration. It isn't. No, my brother. You don't have. My brothers all worked in the same shopping complex. Not one of them had the foot guy come after them. Yeah, exactly. It's like grown men, just stop it. Stop it.

Stop it. Yeah, don't be a weirdo. Let us go to work. Well, let us just dress as crabs and do our job. Yeah, man. And organize like Sally Field. God, I loved that. I loved having that moment because what I realized it was for Brooke, as much as creepy Carl sounds like your boss from the sports authority. Smelly old Jim. Yeah.

Carl was just a smarmy guy who knew he could take advantage of young women who were in shitty situations. And there is that line in the episode that sometimes people do crazy things when they're desperate. And, you know, it cuts to Jules trying to figure out what to do. But it's true of really the both of us in this episode. Jules and Brooke are having this kind of mirrored experience of,

in the same way that you see, you know, Dan and Taylor having a mirrored experience. And I loved seeing Brooke awaken to the potential of,

of her mind and, and igniting that justice flame. That was one of those places where I was like, Oh, they're starting to pull me into this character. Exactly. Exactly. We've all gotten those moments like joy with her music. And you know, like I've said me with slowing down with Jake and the bisexuality and stuff like that. Like I felt very seen like, like,

You organizing, you being a leader, like them tapping into that part of you is so rewarding to watch because it's not even Brooke. It's like, that's my friend Sophia. She's here to burn down.

I'm ready. I brought the torches. Started with a crab shack. I brought the matches. Yeah, man. And what I like is that you see the dynamic shifting even between her and Felix. When she's telling him what's up, when she says, stop it with the money. I'll make my own money. I'll figure out all of this myself. I want to be independent. I don't want to be like my mom. And in this episode, she gets this job and she knows it's wrong.

She knows it must be illegal to not give people breaks. She knows it's not right that they have to rent their own costumes. It's ridiculous. And he says, go the legal route. And she does all the research. She pulls up the information on OSHA. She gets versed in what is legal in the state and what unions can do. And it

It makes her feel good. And you can see it even when he jumps behind her on the bed and is like, well, what are we doing? Okay, I'll help. She's got a project and it's for her. And then she decides she wants to be the class president. I love it. It's so sexy. I love it. It's so sexy that he helps though. Like I,

Yes. That is my favorite part about any relationship, whether it's a romance or a friendship or relationship with your family members. Like being collaborative on something is so intimate and awesome. And this is like the first time I've really liked Felix. Me too. These last two episodes, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I get it. I get it. He's handsome and now he's helpful and.

He can stay. Well, and he's dropped the, like, bad boy facade. Yeah. Which is so refreshing. Yeah. Well, you know...

I'm still confused as to why he got mad at Lucas for breaking up with Anna, but the end result is this like lovely friendship between Anna and Lucas that's happened. And I, I think it's very important to show a boy being supportive of Anna's exploration because a lot of times that gender line gets drawn and it's like, Oh, this is something I can only talk about, you know, with girls or this is, you know, this bro talk. His,

being like a thoughtful sensitive listener that isn't making it perverse or isn't like turning it into a maxim article uh is good lucas had some really lovely moments in this episode he really did and and i loved the parallel of them going for these walks the first walk during the day along the river by the river court and he does make a joke he's like oh i'm picturing it yeah but it's

But he's joking. He makes it so clear that he's joking. Yeah, he makes it so clear that he's joking. Chad did such a good read on that. And what's nice is it allows her, rather than feeling exposed, to tease him and be like, ugh, don't be such a guy. Because this is part of what she's afraid of, is that people are going to tokenize her experience. And then later, when they go on their second walk at night down on the riverfront,

And she looks at all the people. It's what Joy said last week. She says, look at all these people. They know what they want. They have it figured out. It's such an iconic moment.

Or perhaps that's not the right word. It's a timely confession. At the time that we were representing this on screen, there was still a lot of societal talk of you're one or the other. And if you say you're bi, you're just, you know, I think it was a Sex and the City line. Oh, if you say you're bi, you're just on the train to gay town. Like, ew. Yeah.

bisexuality is an identity. Some people are very drawn to both sexes. Good for you, by the way. Double your dating pool. The world is literally your oyster. I wouldn't do that. Why wouldn't you? At the time, it wasn't something people were as comfortable with or as honest about as we are now. And I love looking back and seeing how beautifully Daniela

Played this person just trying to figure out who she is and worrying that something's wrong with her, that she can't check a box.

But by the way, her finally checking a box on the dating profile was huge for this time. Huge. I don't think kids now can appreciate what like a major deal it was, you know? Major. People's careers were being imploded over being outed during these years, you know? And there were like certain actors that came out and they were told like, oh, you'll never play straight again, you know? And so there was a lot of trauma involved.

around speaking your truth or talking about your sexual identity. So yeah, for our show to kind of have a safe space where people could put their toe in and be like, Oh, well, it's okay. And tree Hill, like, can it be okay in my world too? Um, and I, and I liked that we didn't,

We didn't make it seem too easy. We didn't just say, oh, look, here's this bi character and everyone loves her and accepts her. We allowed for the journey to be what the journey of coming out has been for so many people. I'm scared to tell my family. People have made up things about me. They've said things about me. Rumors have spread. I feel bullied. I feel terrified to own my identity and hopefully...

The first person you tell or the second person you tell, the people who you feel like you can trust will love you and be patient with you and say, I'm here. You've got me. Let me know when you're ready to keep going. Yeah. That is an experience that so many of my friends had. So many of us had. Yeah.

And I really, for all the things our show did wrong, I loved how this was handled. I wonder who was consulting on this. Do you know what I mean? I know. Because we weren't really privy to what was going on in L.A. at this time necessarily. Yeah, I'd be curious. Because it is done tenderly.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that scene you reference when she decides to click either and she has this. Remember the either button was brand new. The either button was brand new. That was a big deal. Well, by the way, looking back, there's only a male female. There's no non-binary option, but there's seeking male female either. And the look of pride when she clicks it. And you said, oh, I love this. Yeah.

You know, it was one of the moments that you exclaimed over while we watched it. Well, I remember like when I first moved to New York and you'd get like the village voice or you'd get local newspapers and they were always classifieds in the back, like back in the paper days, back in the Stone Age. And I remember moving to New York and seeing women seeking women and men seeking men and being like, oh my God, like I finally arrived in a city that's like...

Like open-minded. Yeah, open. And I remember just like kind of thrilling over that because I didn't know that that was, you know, that it existed outside of my small town in Virginia. It was cool. And so for us to show it on national television to an audience of teenagers, awesome. Awesome, awesome. Awesome. You know what I like about that point you make? Because...

I've talked a lot about how privileged I felt as a young person to grow up in a house where my father was an artist. Yeah. Because it meant that I grew up in a very diverse, very queer community. Yeah. And I know not everybody has that privilege. And I know one of the things we bonded about early was that community being the best home for us. Yeah, safe. And...

And what's always been really interesting to me with, you know, your experience or the experiences of fans of our show who've opened up to us or even the experience of advocating politically is there are people who come from, you know, places like you're describing, small town in Virginia, who maybe don't think they'll have anything in common with us, who say the things we don't love to hear, like, well, you know, you go to the cities and everybody's queer and everybody's this, that, and the other. And it's like, well, actually— You coastal elites.

You coastal people. And it's like, well, actually, the cool thing about a city, if you come hang out in it, is that everybody lives side by side. And everybody just lets everybody else do what they want to do. Everybody's happy. There's a reason people who live in communities that are diverse vote for diversity.

who could be considered other than them to have the same rights they do. Yeah. Because when you know people, you know people and you love people. And it was nice, I thought, to represent that reality not on a show that took place in New York or Chicago or L.A. or Miami, but on a show that took place in a small town in North Carolina. Yeah.

That was probably the most important part is normalizing it in a way because we've talked about all the other teen dramas that take place, you know, in like hyper, you know,

They're not realistic settings. It's all wish fulfillment. And if our show was anything, it was like, these kids are average. Until we all had like amazing careers later. Until we all turned into superstars. You know, Lucas is a very good friend to so many people in this episode. The Anna thing is wonderful because she's the one place where he can dump all

All the things he's handling. He's dealing with his mother. Yeah. Inviting another man into the home, which is massive. He's dealing with Keith, finding out that Keith slept with Deb, like bombshell. Woo! And that Jules... Especially after Keith proposed to his mom! Right? Right?!

Keith proposes to Lucas's mom and then sleeps with Lucas's mom's best friend who also happens to be married to Lucas's real dad. Like, this sounds like an episode of Jerry Springer. What's happening? And then the new bartender that works at his mom's bar just happens to be Keith's new girlfriend who he finds out is like not an escort, but close, you know, like she's being paid to date Keith. And it's,

It's a ton of information for a young person. It's a ton of information for an old person to process. It's a lot. And you know what you just reminded me of? We were talking about this when we watched. It's a fascinating parallel because it is. That's a lot for a teenager to try to make sense of. And especially because Jules says to him, it's real. I met Keith because of Dan, but I love Keith. I love him. Please. Please.

And what I loved was the scene where Luke and Nate meet at the river court. And Nate doesn't know what Lucas is talking about. But Lucas starts asking Nathan about how his setup with Haley to screw over his brother. Yes. Became real. Because it's the same thing.

Dan and Jules are doing to Keith what Nathan was using Haley to do to Lucas. So Lucas is saying, well, maybe you can lie a little to protect someone if it turns out okay in the end. Haley almost left Nathan when she found out, even though Nathan had really fallen in love with her. So you see how this boy is trying to make this insane circumstance relative to what he knows in any way.

It's a really well-written episode. Well, yes. And you mentioned this. The parallels between Taylor and Dan are... Sociopaths. I think that's what's so exhausting about this episode. We can deal with one Dan, but two of them? Come on. Two Dans is a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

They revel in making other people uncomfortable. And like, we've been around those people. Oh, yeah. Gross. They revel in making other people uncomfortable. They both, I kept getting the vision while we were watching the episode of just twisting the knife. They're both knife twisters.

Have you ever been around those people that want to get caught? Like, it's like their mother didn't reprimand them when they were little. And they're like, I want you to yell at me. And that's what it feels like. Both Dan and Taylor are just like, somebody, somebody stop me. You know, I'm a bad baby. Yes. And it, you know what it feels like as well to me watching Taylor in this episode, the way she, she continues to,

for what reason after the last episode, we'll never know, she continues to throw herself at Nathan to get undressed in front of him, to tease him sexually. There are people, and I think we see them more represented archetypally in stories as women because people love to villainize women. There are people who really get off on getting married people to cheat on their spouses with them. Weird. And I've seen it. Like I've

I've been around it. I will not say who, but years ago I was around someone who loved being able to get men cheat on their wives with her. What?!

And I was like observing this whole thing just going, what the is this dynamic? But for people who are like mortally wounded and think they're broken. Yeah. There's no higher compliment than I'm so special this person would blow up their life for me. Oh, God. And I think that's the dynamic that they're writing for Taylor in this episode. Yeah.

And it gives me the like it gives me like the chill bumps on my bones, not on my skin. You know what I mean? Oh, gross. I mean, she does compare herself to that scorpion where it stings itself to death. Yes. You know? Yes. It's interesting that they chose like a metaphor like that, that Haley very quickly debunks. And it's like, that's not true. Like, it doesn't do that. They couldn't they couldn't have found something that actually harms itself. You know, like a fox that chews its leg off and a fox.

The reason I kind of liked that, though, was that it was such a tutor girl moment for Haley. It gave the it gave the moment of comic relief in a scene where Joy is playing so much pain and so much fear. God, she was beautiful in that scene. I love that scene.

And when Lindsay, you know, when Taylor reaches over and rubs Haley's cheek to wipe her tears away, I was like, oh. And that's where you see the softness in Taylor. You see the girl under the scorpion and you want her to be that girl. Well, it was the same way that sometimes we root for Dan. Yeah. You want her to be that girl.

That was the scene where when she went to wipe the tears, like, oh, my God, she looks just like Bess in this scene. Like, yes, you said that the similarity between Lindsay and the actress who plays Joy's mother doing that same physical action of like comforting Haley. They look so similar. And so you can see the the family in that interaction. Yeah.

And the beautiful, beautiful shot. I mean, Bethany Rooney, again, episodes directed by women just have something. Bethany Rooney did that shot of them both from behind, sitting on the balcony ledge in their layered t-shirts with their tattoos sticking out.

And you saw the sameness. You saw how different they are. One's tattoos symbolizes, you know, self-sabotage and one symbolizes young love. But these two sisters, it's that same thing. They're kind of meeting. They come from opposite ends of the circle and they meet in the middle. And that's the stuff that you go, oh, please let it be that. Let them find their way. Yeah.

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Bethany Rooney is such a good director. I've worked with her on a couple different shows. She's one of those people that you just text with every once in a while where you're like, I'm so glad you're still in my life. And she was a really safe space for us on this show. She was a good person to be able to turn to. And there's so much darkness in this episode. Do you ever think that our visiting directors would get scripts and just be like, well, Jesus, how do I...

How do I navigate this? This is a lot of, this is a lot of trauma here. You know, I think what I, yeah, it must be intense to receive that. Especially if you haven't been able to watch all the episodes beforehand, they hadn't aired yet. Yeah. So how do you get a script like this where you're like, what's going on at this dinner party? Like who, what, when, where, how? Yeah. They, they must give them at least a couple of scripts on paper before they

But oof, yeah, I'd want to be able to see the episode to really know what the dynamics are. I mean, that dinner party. You and I were both like, gross, make this end right now.

It was so uncomfortable. And Keith sitting there thinking Dan is poking at him over Jules and Deb. And Jules sitting there knowing Dan is poking her over her and Keith. And everyone's in a misdirect. And poor Barbara is just sitting there trying to make it right. And by the way, honorable...

honorable mention for that tube top and matching scarf. You guys, I kid you not. I was like, I want to wear that outfit now. I'm going to order a tube top and a scarf now. Oh man. And I'm excited about it. I'm doing the next podcast in a scarf. You won't even see the tube top. I'll just crop my hair. You'll look naked. Yeah. Hillary's in her scarf again. Um,

yes. And, and so, and I guess I was curious. I'm like, why is Deb involved in this? Cause I know that they were kind of working together to break up Nathan and Haley, but this seems like out of that pact. Like, is, are they like a couple again? It seems like they're working on getting back together, especially, especially,

When you open on the, you know, especially when you open on the moment where Dan says, let's invite them over. And he's researching recipes. And Deb is like looking at him like, oh, my God, he's going to cook dinner. And then she says, this isn't just a way for you to pile on Keith, is it? And Dan, God, what a line. He says, well, you and Karen both slept with me and your friends. Oh, my God, I wrote that down, too.

Oh, gross. And so Deb is kind of like, well, I guess I should give it a shot. And then of course the dinner starts and Dan is awful. That's it. It's like you gotta have, like you just gotta call it. Like Deb, 10 minutes in should have been like, you know what? Uh-uh. Uh-uh. We're gonna, I'm gonna go light something on fire in the kitchen so that we can end this. Yeah.

I would have loved it if she was like, Dan, you said you weren't going to do this and you're doing it. You're going home. Like she needs to just be a mom and be like, everybody out. Right. He's grounded. The cops are showing up. Y'all got to go home. Who did Luke say? There's a line you don't cross. I wrote that down. Did he say that to Keith? Oh, yes. About Deb. About Deb.

And you and I both were like, tell me more. Tell me more, Lucas. Remember, you guys, Hillary literally shouted, Lucas is telling Keith about lines you don't cross.

You know, and he's like, that's Dan's wife. And Hillary and I are sitting here going, yeah, and Peyton and Brooke are best friends. Yeah, we're like sister wives, friend. Lucas has Keith on a pedestal. And good, he needs that person to have on a pedestal. Yes. But I think by also witnessing the person you look up to fail a little bit. Yes. It validates your own failure. Like it's almost like...

Lucas needed to see that his hero did the same dumb shit he did. Yes. So that he's like, oh, well, Keith's not a bad guy, so maybe I'm not a bad guy. Like, maybe we all just do this. I think it's so important, and something that I love in this episode, Craig Sheffer does this so beautifully as Keith. He holds space for Lucas's upset as a teenager. When he tells Lucas what happened with Dab,

He admits to him, it's such a strong choice to say, I'm not proud of what happened with Deb and that's the only reason I kept it a secret from you. You understand that, right? He admits to a boy that he is ashamed of his actions and he lets Lucas go away and sit with it. Which is important. Like, I don't like to make people change their mind right away. You know, like sitting with information is so healthy because then you...

You get to work out the entire journey in your own head. Yeah. To make it make sense. You got to give people space sometimes to process and to figure out what it is they're triggered by in the story you're telling. And that's why I loved that Lucas came full circle with Keith, came back to him and said, I've done some things I'm not proud of. He admitted his own shame. We both were running away. And he apologized.

Yeah, he apologized for the way he reacted because he realized they're both just people who make mistakes. But like, honestly, poor Lucas. Like, no one tells him anything. Like, Andy just walks into his house like, surprise, surprise. Keith is all of a sudden engaged. You know, like, everyone is just like dropping information on this boy. And I don't know if our writers consciously did that or not.

Or it was just like a habit that was like, oh, we'll get a better reaction if we totally ambush this child. Well, I think they love the surprise scenes because it allows for shock value for the audience. Yeah, but I would have loved if Keith had made Lucas go out and like go ring shopping with him. Yeah.

You know, like that reveal of we got we're getting engaged. We got married. We've already done it with Nathan and Haley. You know, Joy said that. So, yeah, I would have loved that slow burn of I'm going to make you as involved as possible with this elaborate lie. Yeah, that would have been juicy. Oh, well, it would have could have should have. Yeah.

I do appreciate the Taylor redemption. You know, Dan is never redeemed. Dan, it just, whereas he's going to the basketball court at the end of the episode to make things worse. Right. And to involve Lucas Taylor does the exact opposite and gets on that computer. And it's like, Chris Keller, you better scram. Leave me alone. I don't want you. Yeah.

You see her making a choice to stand up for her sister. Yeah. And I wonder if it's because as uncomfortable as it was for them, Nathan and Haley model that the only way out is through. You got to tell the truth, even if it's shitty. And Taylor's like, well, maybe I could do that. Yeah. Yeah.

So hard. It was probably easy for her. But then Haley doesn't tell the truth to Nathan. No, she sure doesn't. She just keeps walking on that river court trying to kiss him. She keeps it a secret. And she says to him, what happened in the past doesn't matter.

Girl, like, babe, you your your past was a week ago. I actually thought that was a brilliant line that they wrote for Taylor. You're you know, you're giving your. Remember, she said, you bitching about your husband's past when you have a present, when you have a present. Oh, St. Haley is just as bad as the rest of us. Shots fired. Yeah. Well, but Haley, yeah, it's some very big.

She uses big language, like impactful language. And she says, this is all really confusing. And so if you have someone you're close to that always has the right answer and always makes the right decision, for them to admit, I'm confused, that's a big confession. And then she goes on to say, I'm jealous of what Chris has. Like confusion and jealousy are two very embarrassing things to admit. Yes. And I love...

that she clarifies, I am jealous of his music. I am jealous of his freedom to pursue it. Because Haley feels like she has to choose between the husband that she loves and the career that she wants, because the doorway to the career that she wants is a man who kissed her. Yeah. Oh!

Girls, you want to dig into some hard shit? Come on now. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And it's hard to see that there are other doors.

There are doors that don't involve men. And that's the thing that's really difficult as a young person is that you do think, like, if I don't take advantage of this opportunity, there's no promise that there will be another one. And honestly, like, as an adult, I'm here to say, yes, there will be. You know, like, if something feels bad, find a different door. Yes. And...

And I will say, I think it is important to admit, we know how scary it is to take the leap. Because sure, there might not be another door. That's reality. But more often than not, we have learned from some things we've shared with all of you and from some things we only share with ourselves, that if you deny walking through a door that is dangerous or makes you feel bad, even if it takes a while,

another door will come for you because that thing is meant for you. Yeah. The patience, the aptitude to be patient is part of claiming what you want. Well, and if I guess, you know, just to be personal about it, when you let that bad open door, let's just keep we're going to play with that metaphor.

When you let that exist, when you're like, okay, I guess this is the way I'm going to achieve the thing that I love, the thing that I'm passionate about, it can destroy the thing you love.

In a way... It can destroy you. Well, I mean, I never wanted to act again when I left the show. I was like, all right, I'm done. You know, like, see you later. I'm never going to do this again. And so, you know, for Hayley and her music, I don't want Chris Keller to destroy that. You know, I don't want this...

this one opportunity to be the thing that crushes her. Yep. Because we, we know because we shot it that she's going to have so many other awesome opportunities. If she would just like lean into trick, go help Peyton, man. Hello. Yeah. But I, I love that, that you say that because I think it is so important when we talk about

trusting yourself enough to close, let's call it a haunted door, perhaps.

to say I'm not willing to go live in a haunted house. Yeah. Dude, I had the same experience. When I left Chicago, I was like, I'm out. Like, you and I are, truly when I tell you, and I will never forget, sweet Justin Baldoni from Jane the Virgin said to me when I told him I quit my job, he was like, I've never met an actor who's quit a job, ever. Actors don't do that. It's so hard to get a job.

It is so hard to get a job. It's so hard to get a job. And I said, well, I quit a job and one of my best friends quit a job. Yeah. You and I are the only two actors I know who've ever quit their jobs.

And it is such an act of self-defense to say, I will no longer tolerate this thing that is literally eating me from the inside. Like it's like having a flesh eating bacteria on your soul. And when I quit, I had the same experience. I was like, I don't know if I'm ever going to do it again. There are so many other things that I love and care about. I don't know if I'm ever going to do that again. At this point, I'd rather be at the sports authority. You know what I mean?

A hundred percent. I'd rather go work for Carl. I'll wear the outfit. I don't give a shit. I'll sing a jingle. Like, because the well was poisoned to me. And it took me a while to realize that there were other water towers. There were other doors that had not a shred of creepy haunting.

Well, Brooke's going to find that. I love that she works for all of like two weeks. Brooke's going to find it. Payne's going to find it. Yeah. Her two-week tenure at the Crab Shack is now going to turn into student council running for office, which is exciting because we got a little... I love seeing that flyer because Eric...

She's coming. I also love that Brooke was like, I'm running. I'm going to take up all the lines across the page. And they told me to do that. They were like, they were like, maybe write your name bigger than everybody else. And I was like, well, watch what you wish for. Cause now I'm just going to go from margin to margin. It was so fun. Wait, also I have a question because obviously we know, and we haven't brought this up. I want to know what it is. If you know, if you remember, I'm sure you do.

Peyton and Jake go on the road trip to Savannah to get Jenny. Where the hell were you? Were you like doing a movie or something? No, I wasn't doing a movie. I think I was being punished for something or who knows. I was probably off mooning over Greenberg. Just like, hey man, we got the episode off. Do you want to hang out? Hey, hey. I honestly, I have no idea. And that was always kind of like, I don't know. We were always kind of like jockeying for our storylines.

And so I'd gotten the thing I wanted. I got Greenberg back, but then it wasn't in the episode. So what were we doing at this point? You guys were, you had to be doing something. Like, let it be clear, guys. The people we worked for were not giving us days off to be nice. There had to be a reason.

Were you doing like Secret Life of Bees or something? Like what were you doing? No. If anything, I would get sent to do like the sun-kissed parties and like stuff like that. But I don't think we were doing that necessarily in season two. That started like season three, right? Or did you have a big like MTV obligation? Was I at spring break?

I think you were on MTV Spring Break. That's where I knew. I was like, I'm telling you, you were working. When did this one air? This would have aired at the beginning of February. So I was either doing Cancun

or in new Orleans or like I would go on these weird trips because, Oh, or I was doing like club nights in Miami still. Cause in season two, I was still doing five days on tree Hill, two days in New York for MTV. Uh, and it wasn't until the end of season two that I was like, I'm going to die. If I keep doing this, it's not sustainable. And MTV let me out of my contract so that I could just do one tree Hill. Um,

But yeah, that's where like my hair's falling out and I'm just like a disaster all of season two. I'd hit my limit. So I was, yeah, probably doing something like that. I'm okay with it though. I like that Anna thought she was being ghosted, you know, and Lucas had to explain it and be like, baby, no, no,

Had that Jake not shown up. And something that's really nice is you being away with Jake. It gives Anna the opportunity to feel like she's being ignored. And it kind of forces Brooke to,

to rely on herself and to let Felix help her. Because if Peyton had been home, Brooke would have just gone to Peyton. Yeah. I would have made signs. You know. I was going to say, it's why the signs were so ugly. I didn't have you to draw them. They were so bad. I really like the actress that you worked with, Abby, who had the cute blonde haircut. Yeah.

She was married, she is married, to one of the guys who was in the local improv comedy scene with Cullen. And so her husband Garrett was like really good friends with Cullen. There was a pack of dudes that all did improv comedy.

At level five. Like at level five. Yeah. And so it was really cool because I'd made friends with her outside of our show. And then she got cast on the show. And it was... So cool. That was the fun part about shooting in a small town is that our guest stars were a lot of times like people that we'd made friends with in real life. And so it felt like bring your friend to work day. And I love that you guys got to work together. She was so pretty and cool. She was so pretty and cool. And what I loved also...

to sort of mirror that line, people do crazy things when they're desperate. You see what's going on with Jules, but you also see what's going on with all these other young women in this small town. You know, Abby's playing a character who's a single mom and has a two-year-old. This group of girls who've all been hired because they're young and pretty and probably pretty easy to take advantage of. Vulnerable, yeah. Get to show their vulnerability and their fear about losing this shitty

job because it might be the only one available to them. And so it's so fun to see them get a win. Yeah. Well, that's why I love these like young kids coming up now because they're like, I'm not going to work at a poverty wage. What are you talking about? No way. You have to pay us. You kids, you just get those signs out. You got us old ladies to back your play. We'll show up with our crab outfits. Organize, unionize. Yeah.

Look up OSHA on the internet. It's true. No, it's good. It's empowering. And if you don't come from a family that encourages you to be a noisemaker, hopefully you can find other people in your life that make you feel safe to speak up for yourself and advocate for yourself because that is a huge hurdle in anybody's young adulthood. But once you do it once, then it's like okay for the whole rest of your life. You know, it just takes a little bit of practice. Yes, I love it.

And, and it just brings me back to the, the sort of, I weirdly feel this grownup pride looking at young Brooke being like, look at her. She's getting kicked out of her nest and she's choosing to do exactly that to advocate and to lead. And even though it's scary, she's going to show up for other people and maybe learn to show up for herself along the way. Well, that's it. She's not being selfish about like, I'm going to fix this for me. She's like, Oh no, no, no. We're going to fix this for everyone. You know what it is? It's the cheerleader mentality. And

I, yes. So someone asked me how I got into my television show, which is a true crime documentary show. And they're like, oh, you guys are solving cases and you guys are doing this. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Innocence project organizations are solving these cases and all these like lawyers working pro bono are doing all of this work. What I'm doing is cheerleading and and people talk about cheerleaders all the time. But there is a life skill that I learned because the focus wasn't on me. The focus is on who's on the field.

And it's your job to make them feel seen and supported and to bring as many people in as possible to raise their voices and get involved. To rally. To rally. And so, honestly, like the extracurricular activities I did as a teenager, cheerleading has...

stupidly become like something that's very important. And it's a big part of what we do. It's, you know, using your megaphone and shining the light on somebody else. Yes. By the way, it's exactly the same for me.

It's the reason everyone laughs about me being a camp counselor. Yes. It's wrangling everybody, pumping them up for the activity, being the leader who gets them there. It's the reason that I, so early in the trajectory of our show, started doing public advocacy work. Yeah. Because same thing. I was like, I have a megaphone and I'm going to use it. Watch this. Yeah. You know, it is for me. I love that you had the camp counselor megaphone and I had the teacher megaphone.

We're a literal match made in heaven. Yeah. Joy had the microphone. God damn. That couldn't have worked out better. We're real good. Yeah. Somebody needs to draw that. You need the like hold up cheer megaphone. I need the like old school 70s actual electronic. Yeah. And Joy needs a singer's microphone. Fans, artists, please have at it. Chop, chop, friends. Do we have questions? We want to spin a wheel. What do you want to do, baby?

I want to give an honorable mention before we jump into the questions. While we do talk about Brooke Davis loving the color red and all things nostalgic from the era, that red couch at Karen's Cafe.

The red couch gets an honorable mention, y'all. Sophia, I have thought about that couch so many times. Where is that couch? I loved that couch. Who has it? If anyone knows who has that couch, can you let us know? We will buy it from you. It's a sectional, baby. Like, we could each get a piece. Oh, I want it. I would sub.

God, and I just, I remember like what the texture feels like on my hand. Like I remember like rubbing my hand on it. It's such a sense memory. And I remember the...

Yeah. And when we would be in there shooting and there'd be a break, we'd all go pile on it. Like, oh, God, I just missed that couch. We could even do a thing. Maybe we find out where the couch is and we do like a charity drive to get the couch back. Honestly. Not for us. Not for us. I mean, we would raise money for charity to get the couch back. I'll pay anyone for the couch. Please. Yeah. I love that couch. There were certain pieces on set that just like. Oh.

I loved. Okay, so Anna asks us, she says, when Peyton Haley and Brooke are having a bad day or going through a breakup, there's a common cure, root beer floats or ice cream. Do all of you like root beer floats in real life? Or what is your go-to comfort food? I hate root beer more than anything. I mean, I don't hate root beer, but like... Oh, I hate it.

I don't like ice cream. Like, it's just... Didn't we just talk about this? I do. I know you do. I don't know. I mean, you know that I'll be a Killens diehard fan until the day I'm no longer on this planet. But I gotta say, dairy's also terrible for me. I have asthma. Like, I can't be eating ice cream. It makes me sick. It makes me phlegmy. I know, but I love it. So, I don't know. If I...

If I was going to pick my most favorite comfort food in the world, it would be pho. Vietnamese noodle soup. Oh, yeah.

I could eat a bowl of pho every single day for the rest of my life. I probably order it two or three times a week from a place down the street. That's so nice. I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. Listen, when I came to Toronto to visit you, I ordered DoorDash at like 2 o'clock in the morning and got good food and a bottle of wine. What did you get? I don't even know. It's like truffle fries and, you know, like all sorts of stuff. But I was just like, oh, this is so nice to live somewhere where there's...

options. Yeah, that was so fun. I wish I'd known about what do you keep on the farm? Oh, my God, I know. Well, when you come back, we'll just get it. When you're on the farm, because you are not near anywhere where you can get takeout at a random hour. What do you keep? Like, what do you always have stocked in the pantry or in the freezer that you can cook up quickly for yourself when you're hungry and you can't pick up dinner? Whiskey? Is that

Thank you to our friends at Jane Walker. Sorry, guys. No, I have to be a responsible adult here. I'm a carby person. Like, I am a bread, bread, bread, bread, bread, bread, bread girl. So, like, bread and, like, the Kerrygold super salty butter. Yeah. I remember when I was, like, taking German in high school as, like, a freshman, I just needed to learn how to say, Ich liebe Brot.

Like, I just, I love bread. Where is the bread? Yeah. Oh, I love. That's what it is. Yeah, I love bread. That's what stuck after all those years. Yeah. You, me, and Oprah. That's it. Just sitting around eating loaf of bread on one tree hill. Can you imagine? I will never forget. I got in so much trouble once as a kid. You know, did you ever live anywhere with a Vons? The grocery store Vons? No.

No, but I know what it is. Yeah, once I moved to L.A., yeah. Well, yeah, so by the Vons checkout, there's always like the big French loaves that they would bake for the day, and they're like $1.99. I would beg my mom to get me a French loaf every day, and she was like, why is this kid so obsessed with bread? What's going on?

And one day she finally figures out what I've been doing. I've been cutting the loaf in half, but then digging out the soft bread on the inside and leaving the crust pouch. And then I'd put it back together and just leave it on the counter. My mom was like, have you hollowed out a loaf of bread every day? You psychopath. And I'd get it out and I'd roll the little dough into balls and eat them. So

Sophia, we're the perfect match because I'm a crust girl. So I'll always give you the insides and I'll take the outsides. Done. All right. Well, now we know what Brooke and Kate are up to. I can't wait to run a cheerleading summer camp and just have bread for every meal. I can't wait to tell Joy. Done. Done, done, done. All right. Can't wait to invite you all. Yeah. Our cheerleading summer camp is going to be so fun.

Oh, my God. It's going to be so fun. I can't wait for the outfits. All right. Back on track. Rebecca asks, oh, this is a good question for us. If the show was to reboot today, what music would Peyton be collecting and listening to? We literally just talked about this. I know. What music would be playing in the background scenes at Trick?

Literally, we just talked about this like 45 minutes ago. I have this new band that I'm obsessed with called Pom Pom Squad. Yeah.

uh yep their album death of a cheerleader like just came out and it is all on theme it's in my brain i started posting about it on instagram um and this sweet lead singer like wrote me back and i was like baby i am trying to come see your show this year i have not been to a concert in so many years let's go so much come down to the city she's playing at the bowery ballroom okay done

I'm coming. It's sold out. We definitely have to pull some strings. I know her. We're going. Well, you know people. I know her. I think another person, I think about this so much just because of what the music did for our show. And I think about who affects me so deeply. I just know that Tove Lo would be on heavy rotation on our show. And we would definitely get her to come play a trick because I know her. So let's just get all our friends. Yeah.

I just want all the hot girls to come play on our show and make us feel cool. Girl energy is what we're about. It's back to school season for the kiddos, which means it's the perfect time to get your vacay on. Beaches are empty. Resorts are quiet and cheap. Caribbean vacations has fall vacay deals up to wait for it. Forty five percent off. Plus, you can score more sitewide savings and take an extra fifty dollars off your booking now through September 5th. Take

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Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

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What? Win a pie eating contest. Well, I mean, is it me? It might be me. No, no. You know, you know who commits and who is a good sport is Barbara Allen Woods. She like Barbara. You could throw anything at Barbara and she'd be like, you're right. Midwest girl. Give it to me. Yeah. Barbara would win and like look good doing it.

I was just going to say, I would just be so happy to be eating pie. Barbara would like make it hot. Let's give it to Barbara. I love snacks, but she's just so sexy. Hot pie. Okay, but who on the show? Yeah. Well, I don't know. You know what it makes me think of? I can't even remember who said it. Years ago, somebody was like, Megan Fox is so hot, she makes me want to strangle an ox. And that's how I feel about Barbara. Yeah.

Barbara and her little scarf in this episode. Barbara's just so hot. Yeah. I can't. Can you imagine if that was Deb's coping mechanism in the episode where she's like, oh, you guys are making me crazy. I'm going to go eat this pie. Fine. All right. Barbara Debs. Maybe she will in the next one. Maybe. Who knows? God.

Our next episode is season two, episode 13. The hero dies in this one. That sounds bleak. All right. Well, what does that mean? Hold on to your hats, friends. It's going to be a doozy. Thank you guys for hanging out. Thank you. See you next week. Till next time. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at DramaQueensOTH. Or email us at DramaQueens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time.

Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.