Late Night Linux – Episode 306
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Hello, welcome to ever ode three hours six of late night linux recorded on the fourth of november twenty twenty four. I'm drive and with me, I think how .

good evening .

and will .

come in for a jam.

So let's get straight in the news. then. There's been a bit of a controversy around the linux channel, specifically with people being removed from the maintainers file.

Now this turns out to be because of various sanctions and U. S. Government rules in all the rest of bit.

And the russian people in question were working for companies that are on the listen or that. But why this is interesting to me is how IT was handled. There was no explanation.

They were removed from the maintainance file, and then nothing was said until the backlash happened. And then slowly but surely, linders comes out saying, yeah, it's all good. We're gonna revert this. And then eventually we get to the truth of why this happened, which I think is quite a strange approach for the biggest open source project in the world, or at least the most important one.

If they just deleted them simply to comply and if they have just deleted them from maintainers, how does that affect the code that they contributed?

That is a very good question, and that has not really been answered. I don't think that it's going to affect any of the code that they have previously contributed IT, but whether IT will stop them contributing in the future is open question. I suspect that they probably won't be able to contribute for the force able future. But we just not know that the issue here, the lack of transparency, the lack of communication because it's sort of fair enough if the government of the country in which you are based Mandate something you've got to comply, but you can be transparent about why you comply .

and can't you I think things like this tend to reveal the why don't know what you want to call IT like amateur nature of linux as a collective of people. Like there isn't a massive single legal team that you can go to and find out what's going on because there are so many contributors and so many separate entities all involved in this. And you know you've got linus as the the figure head, but he is not A A legal expert.

And so where do you go to get official sign off? Where do you go to push back against sanctions? And the answer, I think, is we don't know the linux foundation. Maybe they can help, but I don't imagine that they want to argue with the man because they are dependent on A A whole bunch of other entities to fund their activities. So it's this kind of multiple aded nature of linux that I think makes IT difficult to really get a single how hearing message back from linux as an organization because IT just doesn't exist.

But isn't that the whole point of the foundation to have an official body, an official organization to deal with legal ship and communication and stuff like this?

That is definitely the job of something I would expect to be call the foundation, yes. But I don't think it's particularly ever been a priority for the linux foundation.

You say so clubs members can just be together and actually a good and not really actually do anything important at all and make money for nothing.

We've thought a lot about the next foundation, and I suppose they do something they, you know.

but I think they do create a very a corporate .

for sad for for all of this chaos that will is describing that in a way I think has been effective in attracting investment into the linux foundation in all those things. So IT does provide a purpose. So it's not so much what they do that I have a problem with is the name because you just think this is going to be the foundation to offer advice on things like this and to be their foot to answer the questions like we have. And it's not never has been.

What is the trade body isn't IT?

yeah? It's a trade body that I think is advocates for that kind of in in because linux and open source doesn't Operate in any way like the a typical CoOperation. The linux foundation has become that Operation.

I think the word that will might have been scrambling for was ramshackle IT does seem like a ramshackle Operation doesn't IT. And this is really not helped that image just but it's like the linux foundation is supposed to be this corporate friendly entity. But then when IT actually comes down to IT, they've done a shit job of communicating this situation, dealing with the politics of at all.

But look, I mean, just look ahead. These things play out though you don't want to make a mistake on the other side, the fact is that those embargoes are there for a reason, and if you are found to be in breached them, you get in serious trouble. So I think unfortunate it's baby bath water time and you know airing on the side of caution is easier to do that and and fixed that afterwards. That is to actually make the mistake of having someone that you shouldn't have employed be employed because that's even more serious. It's crap, but I think that's what we've done .

yeah and I agreed that it's Better to overcome ly and undersupply because as you say, can always bring people back in but communicate that part out of fucking blog post is not hard.

They told not too by the florist who is delivering next door for last week.

I must admit IT does have um a wife of being told not to about IT.

I'm not having that because they have come out in drips and dribs and told us what's going .

on yeah but is that just the nature of latics as they told one personally that tell everybody and most people just .

went africa maybe. But the way that the information came out suggest to me that no one kind of wanted to talk about IT because they're not lawyers and they were kind of waiting to hear back from the linux foundation legal team. And IT just seems to be, as I said, that word ramshackle.

IT just seems to be they did not have their shit together for a proper coordinated response and explanation of what was happening. I don't doubt that they had to do something like this. And removing people from the maintenance file might end up being just malicious compliance that IT might actually be really good, that just removing them from a text file essentially is enough to satisfy their rules. But come out and explain the shit to us. It's supposed be an open project.

Helens razer. yeah.

Cock up rather than conspiracy. I will always go for that because I know how fucked in useless paper are, especially when you get them into a big organization.

But I mean, let's face that, who wants linux in jet? Invert comes to have A P, R, A chair department. And that's not how I got where IT is and that nobody likes such a even in the company that they work for.

It's always awful. Oh yeah, legal has to beyond to our cal legal. Yeah, the magic legal.

Let's hope theyll make a great job at this time again. But now I won't be. It'll be crap like IT always is. Lawyers speak for lawyers.

Maybe the problem here is the efficiency of linux. And the lawyer said, right, you ve got a removal .

from the maintainers file.

Dub, yeah. Meanwhile, welcome our new contributor guy.

But then the legal team didn't have that shit ready in terms of this is what we're gonna to the public. So they took the action without having a coordinated and ready response to the backlash that was gonna come. I just think IT looks bad for the links foundation generally. IT just makes them look disorganized and a bit shit at their job, quite Frankly.

or one of their jobs. I'm more surprised you thought they're be good at anything.

Come on, be nice. They're obviously good at paying tall that I don't .

I don't know does he get paying much of A I think .

it's a gift having the us and IT adds credibility to their organisation. And I don't really not what they are doing other than their name. And i've talked about this before when they're only ones who of a certification through certain channels. I think if had a different name, I wouldn't be so bothered. But the fact that is the linux foundation, and that's what people assume is the defauts foundation for looking after these aspects of linux, is a bit more representative.

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Is he surprised about this? I'd be surprised if google did invest either time monia effort in something for longer than a couple of weeks.

Well, indeed.

don't use google products or systems. You are on a short plank black work situation.

More specifically, in this post, he talks about how they're not really that interested in the desktop version of and they're much more interested in mobile. And so it's kind of been neglected, which makes me think IT was a really great idea to go all in on flutter for onal, in with the new installer and everything. Great work.

I am massively out of the loop here, but I did hear about the best top team moving to flush their tall kit of choice for, I don't know, like native a bunch apps, I suppose. And I knew about the new installer being written using IT, but did IT move any further past that? Or is that as far as I what .

my understanding is like yours well, it's sort of the go to for anything new and gi in a bunch?

Yeah, I don't know officially, but I know of several applications that have been written in flutter for just these reasons. Yes, the software center, the new one being a good example of that.

Yeah and this door, as we know, yeah two k key component of the linux test top.

But also, I mean, that post is about how successful flutter has been. They estimate this been a million developers. I also think they should have called the falk fluker, but they know that's for somebody else.

I would the core of IT be like .

called another may be. But I have to agree. I was surprised. This is the first I heard basically in my little ecosystem that google was no longer totally behind IT and supporting IT in the way that IT leads to be supported on president. Yeah, I don't know what that means because everything that I see from flutter is quite interesting, except for the fact that IT needs to survive twenty five years.

Well, that talks about how the flutter team were just not very responsive to bugs. So say, you're developing an application in flutter and you come across a bug with flutter itself and then you file the bug. And then because there are so many bugs, IT just doesn't get dealt with for like a year by which point you've completely moved on and forgotten what the bug was even about. And so he just doesn't get dealt with. And i'm not a hundred percent al that a fork with even fewer people is going to fix that problem.

I wonder if this is an effort to reengage the flutter community from google to stand up and take otherness and start doing something again.

So the kind of folk that is just a political move to light a part.

Yes, we ve seen as a few times there was that gim for made a storm in a teek up and then went away. And actually nothing at all happened, but I did raise awareness of the stupid .

fucking name. yeah.

Maybe this is A A A similar effort. I don't think IT is I think that, that is the actual likely outcome that they will raise awareness and nothing much will come of IT. But IT is something that needs the awareness raising. So hopefully it's successful in that regard at least .

while time will tell. Will canonical and a bunch move to flock rather than flutter? I think that would be a big vote for the fork .

if they did or drop IT altogether .

and go back to G, T, K. Come on.

Right for me is time for you to go make a cup day because we're onna talk about the open source initiative announced the breath of the industry y's first open source A I definition cool. Now I don't want to hear you're not saying on this. I want to try and have a proper discussion.

I'm moving my map. Can you not hear on my non naing?

What we have here is the osi trying to stay relevant. Yes, stay relevant. Stay with the time. desperate. I thought you were making a compete.

And come on. Oh yes. Sorry, beauty.

Now what they have is almost an impossible task because although A I is software, IT doesn't really have source code. As such, there is some source code involved, but there is also training data weight, and it's not really like traditional software. It's very difficult to define what open source A I is.

And so no wonder people are already arguing about this on source definition. Some people saying is terrible, that they are forcing you to reveal all your training data, while other people are saying that they should have made you open only training data, which I found very confusing. But then if you actually read the wording of IT, IT says sufficiently detailed information about the data used to train the system that a skilled person can build a substantially equivalent system.

And they say, in particular, this must include the complete description of all data used for training. Now, the description of the data used for training is not the data used for training because the chances are that most of the people who have made A A I model don't still have the data used for training because it's too much to keep. I think that i'm a bit sceptical about this whole thing as the bottom.

I don't think we should have had an osi definition of open source A I until open source A I could write .

the open source finish be.

which is why this smokes the same.

This has been a two year long process where they have traveled around the world talking to experts .

and stakeholders too. Sorry, is somebody rebate with A R? We have fAiling. We ve got ta pull the trigger and out do IT. This is the time he warned .

us about the company.

Sentence take who even look .

at are you do i'm assuming this is I .

called as that's the kind of shit that these people say is in IT.

That's exactly what OpenAI o would say.

The text of O S A I D V one point zero, as well as the partialities of the many global stakeholders who endorse the definition, can be found here. Yes, I didn't just make that the book play. Yes, so we just ridiculous then. Okay.

it's a stupid of lucky idea if you can't recreate IT because you can't hold all the data required let's face IT who the fuck can unless they are massive and they already have one? So it's completely pointless.

You think it's just the O.

S. I try to stay vant. yeah. State levant, the world has moved on and nobody needs it's it's a black box that it's just designed to be a black box. Just leave IT forget about .

I think maybe what you're getting at is that they need to be firmer that rather than just recognizing that they need some kind of in source A I definition, they should go further than that and say the data needs to be available and IT needs to be accessible, IT needs to be reproduced and no one willing to do that. And I think that's a bit of a failure .

that the exact goal that should be like right now, they should say, no, we can meet .

this definition. yes.

And if people wanted reach that definition, then reach that definition, but then take the fuck and and open away from them if they don't, because they aren't. I'm sorry, I was making tea.

Yeah.

irish day. That's racism. This matter, it's true. It's bucked and .

race an awful lot of fuss should thank the academy, writes leam for the register. So lame went to the even to summit and there were various sessions from the academy software foundation, which is kind of part of the same organization that does the Oscars and everything. And IT turns out that loads of visual effects software runs on linux.

IT seems like it's a massive part of the hollowed wood movie industry. And so i'm bring this up as a great positive. A great win for a resource is not just blender. It's loads of other stuff as well as other sce.

Yeah though I mean, I know often people don't get to write on headlines, and I am assuming that didn't write this one because surely it's the other way around. They didn't use up the source because I was trying to thank us for doing antenor. You know I guess we'll use linux this time. I was obviously doing the job ford m and yeah, I don't know that would be the wrong way of yeah.

but they are contributing to these projects .

that are all open source there a bit? No, fairness aren't like projects that help themselves. Got a lot and not anything.

Is that not the whole point of us scratching you on each?

absolutely. And that's fine, but I don't think we have to thank them for processing large film arrays of, you know, stuff have got on saloo. ID hasn't really cropped up yet for me. But I mean, maybe I will maybe and then I will I will thank them very mind.

This is an industry who have made quite a substantial investment in patting themselves on the back on a regular basis.

Do they like give themselves gold status every year, something.

So I think I saw this talk by David morin, the executive director of the academy software foundation, that lime is talking about. And I suppose he added IT for the audience.

But the message very much was that they recognized that individual companies within the academy would choose to try and dominate and V H S B T max war to reveal my age, and that the majority of them saw the benefits of actually working together within an open source kind of remit and convincing other people to do so for the Betterment of the industry. And that was very much his message. And the examples that he gave in, in terms of the denials kind of supported that. Now I know it's a narrow slice and it's a niche anyway, but that was the message that they were presenting at the .

and that is genuinely good to remember that horrific phrase from the mid to dozens of cop petition, which was just so wrong. It's unreal.

Oh no, quick, find the buses, everyone.

I think I think that was a novel ism that but yeah is fairly horrific. But IT does kind of make sense. It's like, you know at least they are getting to reuse the same code with each other, which is nice.

But IT does really mean that projects like blender are able to incorporate these shadings and the rendering frameworks and can create absolutely phenomenal results that anyone can use this unbelievable, even if that's a size effect of IT.

Yes.

the last paragraph in the article talks about there are being very little rassle zl in the linux world. And I think that's a really good point that we are quite often wrapped up in the muncie of processing jobs on servers in the cloud that don't really exist. I think this is a really good way of demonstrating the value of open source to people who are not deeply involved in the I.

T. industry. And to say this is what open source soft is all about, all this cool stuff. I think it's a really good way .

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Onto a bit of admin. Then first of all, thank you everyone who supports size with paypal and patron. We really appreciate that. If you want to join those people who can go to late nights links stock com slash support and remember that for various amounts on patron, you can get an advert free r of either justice show or all the shows in the next month, next family and you, you can get some episodes ly, and if you want to get in contact, you can e mail show at late nights inuit 点 com， help us make voice Better in under a minute, asks home assistant, so you go to this website and you record yourself saying, oka bo. And they ask you to walk around the room and say, IT from, you know, various distances and everything to help them train this voice assistant thing that theyve got going IT seems like a really easy way to help out on our source project to me.

Yeah, it's nice. I think a lot of home assistant users are not as tech sai as I initially expected they would be when you poke around the forum. There is a lot of what I will call basic questions being ask and being an answered, of course.

But IT did make me understand that there are a significant number of users of home assistant who are not, as you might expect, software developers. And so they are pretty much excluded from being able to contribute an open sore software project. This is a really nice way to allow literally anyone with a voice to and a way poser to contribute.

I think that the open source project, micro O W I K E word is a really nice, clever project that is a very light way, runs on tiny devices. And I think it's a really nice way to build a light weight alexa like device that you can stash away on a tony do us in your house and then rid yourselves of all of those closed source and propriety systems, which incidentally, seem to be getting worse and worse as time passes. So yeah, i'm gona check this out. I have got a device that I can run IT on, a tiny little like one inch cube device with a microphone built in. So I will go and give this a going report back.

I just wanted to work locally. I just wanted external service that are not in my control to .

be involved. And why do I have to name me after the planet where fucking charge or bank comes from? I mean, apparently is also the baby patient god of literacy. But yeah, it's charge our banks is all I can think of all I think of that.

I just think that might bosh yeah, as I think of the guy that works at the zoo. Well, yeah, nobody taking the third series thing.

Oh yeah, yeah, yes. Anyway, that's exactly what mico weight word is, joe. It's IT is a purely local voice detection system that will wake up and pass the data through to home assistant so you can achieve your dreams.

Well, i'm glad I voice wait then, but I can be asked to get up. So I just kind of threw my voice around the room with my hands, but that's great. That's what they need. Yeah, you don't need a good quality, mike. The whole point is to do IT on phones and laptop mikes and now have background noises, everything they need that it's all well and good to be in the studio OK nobu, that doesn't help anyone, does that like you needed to be shake quality so that they can train the various algorithms on that?

I said, I can have my clock in the room and they make the train.

Yes, you are allowed to, unlike with this, right? Well, as we're in the positive segment of the show, let's talk about thunder bird for android is finally come out and you have been forced to use IT filling by the sounds of things.

Yeah, popped up in my updates actually this morning fully enough. So very confusions ly though the APP still cocaine but not in the APP store after I that is and is if I open the up draw, I still see canine it's thunder bird by the name in afraid itself. So it's kind of there but not there.

It's I think version eight, beta five that popped up this morning. And then from four to five IT seems to partially change name. The only thing I can see differences, the icon in the task bar or what have you call that in in android? IT has seemed to have changed slightly, but not much. I've not spotted anything else over different.

now. I was very confused by this because yesterday I went looking for thunderbird and I went looking for canine, and I could find both of them, and I got both of them installed, and they were both relatively similar. There were as a couple of little differences here in there, but otherwise they just seemed the same.

So I didn't really understand why kinds still exists when thunderbird is supose to have replaced IT. And I thought you were gonna say to me that you got an update for canine and IT was just completely rebranded and then that's IT you're using time about. Nobody sounds like not quite.

not quite maybe maybe made a six changer, I don't know, but the icon is like the same as the canine one. IT doesn't have the ponderable logo at all? No, I don't know as something gone wrong in the packaging and maybe it's only a party update by mistake, I don't know, but certainly not. My family isn't.

It's the same for me. I use k nine two. okay? It's still k nine mail.

right? And the functionality .

he has really changed .

much or maybe a bit more polish looking maybe I think .

we're missing something.

Oh, okay, sorry, i've actually spot the difference. Finally, i've multiple counts of mine and the hamburger, many of the top left when you go to say inbox, a defaults on the in boxes and I get a totally different things. Now that is actually way Better because i've got more space for account stand the left bar, this new left bar, and it's a vertical.

Folder choice. Look, this live testing as we go. I didn't nose at the entire day.

I was sceptical about this, and I still I M to be honest. But I think the thunder bird project on the way that they're getting community contributions to keep IT going and forever reason they think this is a priority, I kind of support them at least in community sense because they're showing a way of making open source and community contributions work. That sounds a bit naive.

but I like IT. Well, the way there is, they basically said to the canine fella, will pay your salary, keep working on IT, but we're gona call IT on the bird. How about any idea? All right.

yes. And that seems fair enough to me. yeah. And ultimately, IT may make more people use IT because most people haven't heard of canine, but most people have heard of thunder. Yeah, even if they haven't used IT much.

And I really want them to succeed at this community funded open source project model, especially considering the mozilla relationship and proving how IT can work. You may not be able to have such lofty goals in all of their whatever ship mozilla doing, but focus maybe on call jesus fucking actually the .

best description of mozilla's competency. Yeah, who knows?

Maybe we will happen, right?

Well, we Better get out here, then will be back next week. We will have some discoveries and staff, who knows why IT will be exactly. But until then, i've been .

turned and i've been gram and .

I been will see later.