639: DX, JSON, XML, HTML, and Databases! Oh My!
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There's up of mean extra listening to another episodes the chapter show i'm dave in the shed with the dogs who are probably every out Robert with means. Chris, Chris.

how are you two little dogs being puppies? Not going to return them.

Well, little too late. I I like the dogs there. Very sweet.

I think, you know, I underestimated how much I would be the primary caretaking of the dogs because got them IT was summer time. Oh yeah, kids are around. They got nothing to do. They can watch some dogs. But then, like a week later, they went to school and then I in the sole caretaker of two dogs, because my wife's working at the school most days a week and doing other stuff. And so like.

but at home.

how are you looking like I, you know, and i'm busy at work or whatever trying to yeah whatever deliver value there but like what you know it's it's a just day oh, i've had dogs before. It's fine. Never had like two Young pups at the same time but they just yeah one is dumps bricks, eats rocks like the dig holes my artist read, like, insist i've not win in the game, you know and I I feel that you but they're sweet pups but i'm i'm not winning. I just want everyone to know that. Not winning the dog game so .

clear enough, mum. Sorry, man, it's since everything's lives hard now.

Yeah well, it's one one dog would have been different, you know. But then I don't even know if I win the one dog game because that that means that dog requires a bunch of attention, you know least they go out and they play and .

run around and rassle together yeah right yeah.

But I think like I I don't think just the fact that like all logistics fall on me, you know I can't walk through a door without having two dogs like take out take me out of the knees. You know that means just like she's like I could see after a while that it's like raising a toddle is really what it's like if you have been there where you're just like you were just doing this all day long. A all day long is a Better time yet.

Just a rub IT a little bit. I still, you know, were relatively new and not having any dogs after like ice. I opened the door and I just take a big weather like that. Just the pleasure of coming home to nothing. I just love IT doesn't smell .

like a pile of hearts .

like right now it's the smell. It's it's like the smell of chill.

Yeah yeah. Not chaos. No cooter clapping of a dog. Just peel and out. Slam in the new little wall.

Look in your guests in the none of that is going on different at barking at every squirl, every person that would ever come to the house. Yeah, knee, actually, I had a few a year of that. That was great. Oh, well, that's back. Well, fresh back back.

fresh back from from toronto at web on least those kind of fun haven't been to a web conference in a little while. I spoke about developer experience in, in, in things, and I had a good time putting together that talks. I'm sure I turned IT in two some kind of long form blog post at some point, so everyone can enjoy IT. I have to give you one more time that will help me refine and a little further before I do that blog post thing.

What's kind of the big you? Just like, D. X, it's great. yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I applied, you know, was a funny to talk about because I feel like when you get to talk about let's say you're talk is about java script or c whatever, it's almost by its nature, like scientific truth.

You're going to show something, some code, and then you're going to show execute in a web browser and you're like, look, this equals that isn't that interesting like you have that possibility at least, that you can do that and you must feel like a little scientist, you know, and proving proving something for you and then you can talk about IT. Maybe i'll have some general opinions and stuff and then IT wavers into IT. But you I felt pretty sound when I do that.

Whether with this is so shy, i'm just talking about I didn't apply any scientific rigor to my opinions about what makes for good developer experience. You could because IT falls under the general realm of you x, which is a discipline that you can apply science and stuff too but but I didn't hear mostly its me just being like, listen, i've been to developer for a long time. I'm a cofounder at a company which we have to provide d to the people who work here to.

And IT happens to be a developer. products. We're providing the x to, you know ten plus million users.

So dx is on the mind.

Not to mention we're making any version of code pen in which that the dx of IT is kind of freshly considered in a lot of ways. So it's around the mind.

And I loaded IT up with examples .

and my point at cope hen a little bit, but then I point IT all kinds of other tools that I think are doing a good job and then connect IT to the larger world. Like you see how here's one that that I slipped in there and I don't know how well IT lands or whatever, but so here's a little one. It's not a new concept, but it's just about the concept of cyn tax highlighting in code.

We've had that forever, right? But if you don't have that, um it's not the end of the world but just the presence of IT is part of dx in a code editor. You know you can look at an object and IT has one color, and then a method on the object has a different color and allows you to understand that, or the color of an opening curly bracket matches the closing bracket of curly bracket color.

And then that allows you to be like, I see that through that and indentation and stuff I like understanding, but that's a block of code that's all related to each other executes in that order in things like that. And then so that's positive. Helping you do something IT also helps you when you screw up.

There are some like our high contrast theme on copy. And when there's like a problem because I can't send tax highlight correctly because you've made some tactical problem, has a pretty like nari red color IT tries to apply to the problem area, which is just a little bit of dx to keep you on the rail. It's not slapping your risk.

It's not taking your focus away like literally the browser focus. It's not popping up a model or anything. It's just a little bit of nudge. And any developers went developer for any length of time can just instantly see a syntax highlighting problem and get there and be like wu or Better. Yes.

especially code and IT. It's like, oh, why are you mad? You know, it's sort of like code telling you their mad in in then becomes kind of game sort of for me.

But it's like, why? Why are you mad? Ninety percent the time now it's type script .

is but matt is I don't know it's too stronger of a word or not. Those are um slightly different, right? Type script is red quickly and I I go all into that too because I absolutely love red quickly today I think red squiggles are one of the most important dx concepts.

There is, again, if you building a development product on up, baby, find a way to provide red bugles about your thing. You know, there should be some like a web component, red googles thing. There should be red googles for for every everything you can think of because it's so uh, we already know what they are and it's not it's mad. It's like, I guess is a way to put IT, but it's not so mad.

Sit down the application from .

what you're doing yeah you know yeah it's like the right amount of mad and I think that's why I like IT in syntax. Aling falls in that bucket a little bit too and so is like, oh my cota saml form that like pretty can't even pretty IT you ever get that. That's also one of those like h it's a little mad at me.

Why is this behavior? And I like all those little moments of just like light frictions that you can fix IT and get back on track. I think that's cool. And I I made an analogy to like rumble strips on, like highways, your driving along your car and you're you're an absolute fool and you look at your phone or whatever you hear the like.

It's just like it's bad syntax .

highlighting its that seems little less less life and death when it's cold but that thing is trying to be like your screwing up a little bit incorrect. You without, you know I don't know, instantly issuing you a ticket or stopping your car or doing something more dramatic.

It's more like a subbed push and I like that yeah that part of the part of the thesis, things like that, i'm connecting real world stuff to dx stuff to get you to think about the concept. It's not like syntax highlighting. Anybody is doubting syntax highlighting as a good thing. But IT gets you to think about, are there other little small things that I can push push .

a developer back on track? Yeah, what do you think about in my doing all the what curb cuts, all the curb cuts they're adding in those like accessible be bricks, you know the like dots yeah you know that's like an accessibility feature. Like, hey, you're reaching an intersection.

No, pay attention. But like, it's also awesome for me as appearing go to the dots. You can go to the dots.

P. S, it's good for, like just walking in. Like if i'm looking at my phone, it's like, oh, shoot.

Like, I need to pay attention. I met the road. You know, something generally do go that far. But but yeah, it's like, you know, it's their cool.

These like feedback mechanisms kind of, you know, help you exist sort of, yeah, feedback mechanisms is good. Do you get into the idea of like developer advocacy as D X at all? I want to.

but I have to deliver this in one circumstance, and I have to give IT in twenty minutes, and it's quick. But I do get into, I did you know, I quote a swiss thing in there that he said something cool that I I wanted to share instead. But there is this idea of the their stuff around a product that is part of the dx of the product, even though it's not the product.

Ducks is a clear example, and I do get into some examples of that because it's just it's unavoidable like good dx is good dog. Some unit can be. It's a pretty big aspect to IT, but that's not everything. Like the person on social media representing your product is kind of the D X of IT.

I was going to say like how many times do you use the product because somebody who is cool that you trust is the face of IT or part of IT. You know that I feel like that is a piece of D. X. That is often lost. Just that developer advocate, I know there's somebody I trust through whatever means that is, you know i've heard him do a conference and they were funny like phil hawk's where there's something is that enough to you know make me trust like that the developer .

experience here was good yeah like how many c masses do .

you stop using because one guy just lips well that .

yeah that not .

to bring up all drama because that is very hot and fresh just keeps like it's like a fun dee part of hot drama IT just keeps going IT just pumps IT up from the bottom and spit IT back out of the top if found, you found IT is not helping me in my like like what if I have to eject from a technology like brain? Because I know always defensively code around that. You know, like, I over, I over index on that.

I know I do and you have people listen to the pocket for twelve. You probably said like I dave over indexes on like needing to suddenly leave a technology in the middle the night. This situation is this wordpress situation .

is not helping me on, uh.

IT is just reaffirmed my belief that all IT takes is for one person with a enorme amount power to turn something really right.

My blog is going to be industry standard markdown file and no proprietary anything because then I can move anywhere, anytime.

But even if john grouper, weird, I figured back up for the, yes, you got to think about this man.

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That's fun there. There is some fun stuff. I'd never, i've never seen Douglas crock ford before he was there. No, 这是 一天 I I have .

met him and seen him before。 He will will not ever remember meeting me. But um yeah he's a crucial man.

Great talk is he he seemed friendly that I had all these moments to like I T I kept thinking of like moments to make a joke about Jason or something and I just didn't because each case I could see him there in the audience like A I don't think he was at my talk that I was on a couple of panel is there and I kept thinking of, I Better shit up because I had even said hi yet I can feel carefully d buy each other would be funny to to do IT but have the first thing that somebody y's ever upset .

be like a jb bt. Jason, would you say go so far to say you did not want to comment in jon, I will not .

come on I was on a panel .

about making .

mistakes and I was like, Chris, what mistakes of human and be like? I forgot to put trAiling commas in the Jason's. But I didn't could do IT his talk did have some stuff about Jason in IT.

IT started that way, which is little unavoidable. And it's kind of like what the people want to hear, you know, like here. And then Steve Miller band, play, play like an eager. What I really got to do IT .

got to play the hits .

and you got to play the hand. Any had some regrets in there, not anything that that I would be immediately, you would think. I think he thinks of as no as a mistake. That's one of the valid values for a thing in doing. He's like it's just .

not necessary and undefined in me. Non existences, no kind of deal, not existences. no.

So why would you put IT at all? Yeah I think exception could then you could still iterate IT over. I don't know what is the thing there is there is a couple of mistakes but none of them more of the things that you think of. I think of mostly comments and trAiling commas. I want those things.

the things.

But then he kind of goes into inventing a new format um that you know the way that he thinks of a jack. And I feel like it's a lot different than how we do for some reason. He's just much more computer science cy than your average random front end developer, the the digest Jason.

So he talks about this new format and how much more flexible liners has more types. But it's it's all the way down to like a bite format. So he talked about lots of advantages of this new format except for that it's not human authority like I don't that seems it's .

kind of like a, like an R P C canadian. I yeah like .

continuations oh yeah. IT was a little above my head, i'd say. But one of the types in IT, because it's all the same types and more and one of the types .

and that is like .

a blob okay yeah meaning whatever a JPEG you send .

blogs over wire yeah can .

be IT can be a binary format in which that Jason cannot and it's like what we do at blogs and java script. I get that Jason is not java script. T but IT does seem like you could extend IT with that or something.

嗯， yeah, I mean, it's just a java script object notation. So an object that note tes some sorts key value pair system.

I think the new former is called noto because he made a joke. It's like that the whole, the whole name is bad. It's like the name java script t is already bad because it's not java and it's not a script, whatever.

And uh so that those two words sucked and then object is weird because it's not really an object or the way that people in java think of as an object is very not that so they really don't like IT. So the only word in Jason that's any good is is is notation. So he took that one and just call the noto.

Okay, I think is the new format, but he didn't make a very strong point. Like, listen, you know, I have never version ed Jason in at all. In fact, i'll hand out a business card in the entire spec of Jason fits on the business. Think one, no .

functions, no blood, no IT is you know you can get .

a Jason data work too and that whole age is very um there's just not much there is also is the whole spec you can see the kind of White box on the right is like that ah so that the back and it's never changed ever it's just was invented or discovered as he's once put IT and then that's IT. It's been the same forever. And it's like in this world of just unending constant change, this has never changed.

That has never changed. Its not versions and in in his mind IT will never change like there will never be a Jason too that has whatever trAiling comments and comments and whatever other little each features that you think I should have. He's just not gonna do IT now other people might do IT and he even this criteria for that he's like, I forget what they all were one of the criteria that is make IT substantially Better and I think that was his poke at the idea that life don't just add the the comments like that's not it's not substantially Better .

enough to cause the turn that it's gonna cause fear fear yeah I guess ah yeah I mean I guess like you introduce if j on two comes out and they say we support comments and everyone starts checking comments in their jon every day on one APP dies right .

like you would just .

choke yeah yes totally okay I won't do IT less right yeah .

there are little moments where I think it's a little bit fine. The example I think of is that is microsoft in in when you go into VS code and you go settings, whatever, look at your personal settings. It's it's like A U I look but also you just click that little button or whatever.

It's it's really just a chunk of Jason is all your settings that that only ever is ever digested by VS code IT only matters to one thing in the whole world, which is VS code IT actually uses Jason c internally. You can write comments in there, just go ahead, slash lash, right, whatever you want in there. That was microsoft saying, like we we actually are gonna use a variation of Jason in here and we can do that because we just can like it's only IT used in that one context.

It's not sent to across the networks. And I mean, you IT might be to some trigger. It's not like this interchange format meant for, you know two unknown parties to communicate. It's like VS code talking to VS code. So in that case, I think it's kind of cool.

It's not a syndication. It's a it's just a whatever private store some yeah, yeah.

Interesting was fun. No, was there from cool. Interesting case of Jason not taking over? Is is R S S. Others that Jason feed, I think is Jason feed main race?

yeah. Can I was involved in that?

And right, and I don't know. I think I would. It's one of us like why can this start to slowly win? Would that be nice? And then I even as I can liked what you know, eleven ty support.

IT, oh, absolutely no. We have Jason fees. Like do you have IT on your size? No.

no, you I know I really .

like if if it's going to take off, we need them to start actually doing IT.

I do think it's a lot cleaner than R S, S. I yeah, I don't know. Those are kind of no, no, as much as i'd love them, they're pretty brutal brutal like a， uh, object format. Now it's just it's really you write your first sea data statement and you're like, what did I do wrong? How did my life give me to hearing.

you know, in the disco there is a funny one. There's like, there's like the technical guy, and in the show, slow horses, which I I really need beginning to. So many people love IT.

I have not seen IT, but there's an image of the nerd. Apparently there's a nerd character on IT who on his desk has like a easily thousand page book, about example. Yes, like wow.

here. I thought that was angle brackets with data in IT, but probably not. IT was a savior at one point.

People thought XML is, is a real big deal there. IT infected H, T, M, L. For a while.

People thought I was going take over. And there was a moment where X H T M L too strict was what you did, you know? yeah.

And then there is a moment where there are just like where there's going to no H T M. This can be arbitrary aml like is rendered by an X S T L X M style sheet and thinking is that didn't happen. So yeah, I think at the moment.

we're like that was that was definitely worse. Somehow I thought that was cooler or something. Maybe it's like a little newer at the time in my Young brain was like newer is Better or or I like the letter x or something like, yeah I do like x access Better .

and the extreme IT was the x games that year yeah um but I do. Well I think there was also a gateway drug. There was like this pressure to validate your website, which is like an old concept, but you can still do IT um where you like you validate your markup and X H T M strict was you know like you would just you would break if you did IT wrong, you know.

And then, uh, X H G L transitional, like was a little more permissive about stuff. And then I just was and then IT, yeah, I would know I was like you could bring IT through the validator. You would tell if you did a good job on your website that was great.

Everyone would be like, I would. And then i'm a blame. Paul irish came along and said, you can just put dog type lighting bull, and that's legal. So, or dr. 点 P， C, M L and that's a website and was like, what now that's cool because that's less so yeah.

he came up for me today because I was looking at putting the other just a little template kind of for myself kind of because that makes a half decent blog post HTML email and and my desire to use IT a little bit had this tired for everywhere instead of using htm email to do like columns and have big images and buttons and calls to action and gifts and everything ah we have all of HTML.

Let's go crazy like almost like pretend like it's still a plane. Text, email use semantic HTML, but because it's an ht email email, you can adjust the line height, you can rain in the line length, you can make links out of words, instead of having to just pace the entire, you are able to see there's just a few things that's nice about ht mail email and just use only those things and nothing more. So how do you how little can you do to pull that off? I was kind of expLoring.

And the answers like not not little enough. You cannot provide a very chill HTML five document with the chill dock type and all that stuff and and have IT render decently in outlook two thousand and seven or office three sixty five instep. There just be problems still.

You still need you have to use the table if you're going to rain in that with in all this stuff. So there's still kind of a lot you have to do to get full coverage um that look with a fallback that isn't super growth. So but one, but I did validation that you can mess with the dark type. I was like this growth table layout and I like, i'm just gonna change just the dark type to the H D five dock type and see if outlook two thousand seven still respects all that stuff allow and IT does so as like, well, that's my one small win here, is that. At least the modern dark type in email can .

be chill yeah it's really surprising to be just because you know seems like microsoft is Helen eliminating the sins of ague you but but for their email client, they are like only use the old one. Guys, you only know they want to.

I'm sure that's another building far away from any building you've men in or who who knows such a big company that who knows. But I have a feeling that they even had an initiative at one point to fix IT somehow. But it's you know it's arguing more harder problem than browsers are the least with browsers.

IT was like IT was just I E. And now edge just one yeah but email is there is absolutely not just one. There's like fifteen .

just from microsoft. I think like if it's like two thousand and seven, that's like, you know certain people with ark ane knowledge maintaining IT you know I mean like it's like, right yeah I forget why that .

one is up significantly. But IT is somehow but then there is web based ones and there is not there's client based ones.

And like, webbed emails are a miracle to me, like when I see a blog post rendered in an R S S. Reader, unlike, wow, how do you do IT like, sometimes do you know, like, like, wake, they like, you kind of mess with the images and make football or like there's like people do tricks with them, you know, different, uh, all shut up. Feedback does a really great job rendering R S S. Feeds and they're like take youtube videos and they're like to a customer bed and stuff like that is really impressed. Yeah, but like how, you know, like when a email client does IT like just man, is there also.

they are not eyfs med, at least on gmail. Other ones i've seen, they don't appear to be. Anyway, I don't enough to use some shared or dumb thing. I don't think so though but why that's so wild to me, even in this little typographic email thing I was just talking about the css that I wrote to um to colonize the links, for example, you know the selector .

is A A open curly bracket.

you know color blue, close curly bracket, whatever the blue color I chose for the email is if that's rendered on a web page, that A C S S will bleed over the entire interface of IT if it's not I prime. So how is that being determined and scoped in all that? And IT even is reliant to just a reply to an email. You're going to ht email email and then I just hit the reply button now it's still that same email but you need that a to not bleed outside of the rope fly to that email. It's just yeah yeah no .

it's ah the replies and how they break IT up and they those like blue reply lines and the that's sorry you can say like .

extra extra collapse for healthy all work on HTML rendering and how all that works. The big joke is that h that uses microsoft word as a rendering engine. But I guess it's not a joke.

It's true. It's just the reasons why have always been a little unclear, I think. And i'm sure there's very good reasons for IT and just up and not doing that anymore also causes problems. I'm sure yeah .

i'm sure there's a email is such a huge vector of attack like security, just fishing and whatever you know and it's like it's that's hard but certainly .

the temptation is just use whatever the rendering engine is for about yeah it's htm. So uh thing you right not that simple.

Not that simple. Yeah, I be your threat model is good.

Things do get simpler over time. I mean, one thing you can do is you could have a an engine that where the java script engine is just completely turned off you Better. Yeah, I would be smart.

I would love, I always fantasised about making a broza that I maybe if you have body, and then I take the first header, and I pretend that your main navigation, I kind of check IT somewhere to the side. And then you, and then I take the main content. I lay that out if you .

have that is almost like .

links but the command line grazer but like a little more opinion or something just saw no, it'd be interesting like what I don't know what you could do um and then like can't .

it's not unheard of. I mean, that's a little unheard of. But remember how amazon silk that's a brother and I would you in a sense of IT was like cloud rendered the website. And then what IT sent down was like such A P.

D F.

because IT wasn't image of the website that you could score. But IT retained some interactivity like whatever the click regions where were still active click regions. IT was like an image with .

an image map on ear. I just give you like a fake version of the website. You know, I guess reader mode do that too. Now you know so kind of basically describing reader mode for the entire internet.

But yeah perhaps .

but I I know I have the time to do that .

going to that a reader mode has to get the whole website kind of render IT.

I don't know that needs to render text on page right of you're hydrated so but that doesn't solve .

what what was cool about silicon? A meeting that had avoided downloading the entire website that delivering this raster ized version of IT was one request. So I made IT way faster in those band with constrained environments. Yes, is cool.

Yeah, good idea. Slipped out images.

And what if the web was a rendered target? What if, instead of that network tab with thirty seven requests, IT was one? Because what I got was a dot website file or something that was all that work was already done that is like an alternate version of the internet that's .

interesting to think about, like a fully compiled websites. I know like like google tried to do that with like amp and stuff like that. You know like, yeah, I guess that I was close, specially like a close to that right or just one C S S file, one jobs file, one H T no file you know um post images.

But in the I did like the trusted bundle thing you know um signed signed bundles. I forget what they call them and I don't know, I wasn't found that. But yeah, there IT is interesting to think like and how far away are we from that sort of because we do kind of run giants servers too, like compress hundreds of mega bites of application data into a single screen. We kind of do that already, you know, but then we just send fifty files down to the client. Yeah, we do.

I mean, I guess this dub tailed nicely into that conversation about compiled java script. T oh yeah. know.

The point was made during all that, which is will back up and explain more. But ideas, we run a ton of build processes already. Most websites, perhaps you could argue, run some kind of build process to produce them. And because we're doing that anyway, why don't we just lean into that a little more all the way down to the language level? And I was .

like a proposal, say, made that ah they are the two c three nine met in somebody I think from chrome proposed two java scripts, J S zero and J S J sugar, which is a cool rapper me. So J S zero is basically the like platform, base platform. And then if you want to add add features to IT, you are J A sugar and that compiles down to ja z zero.

So if you wanted to add, i'm just going to pick like a sink weight, right? That was a huge language feature. And the argument is, every time they run out, they roll out of language. Future opens up all these security holes, all these problems, all this is a high lift to get a new thing into java scrip pt core. Uh, so the idea was let's I think people misinterpreted, but I I think that was also not clear, but that the idea was will freeze what java script t does and the anything knew like let's say I think away over win the clock. I think a way that would be like the syntax you could custom sugar in tax that you could write that then transport iles down to promises or something like that.

Um I think that was um I know no I I was when I saw the deck the first time I was like ohl no the nilles in the discord was kind of broke IT down a riot blog post to we can post IT here but but IT was a IT was I I think the more I read through IT, all I was like I sort of see what they're saying. I do hate I love the idea of java script being a scripted language um like you just write IT in IT works you don't have to compile nothing um but I did sort of hate IT less when I read through IT. So um yeah don't .

know I mean it's IT feels like one of these lifts that's like in the world that's not gonna en just way too much, way too much. I don't know what do you call that momentum with the current processes? And sure, it's a big lift.

But like stuff happens all the time. Did we get a think wait, absolutely. We did we get big stuff all the time.

So how big of a problem really is this? The problem is I I kind of get IT. You know, there are features that drop in java script a lot. actually. It's just ever changing language unlike something like go, by the way, which you know changes super slowly and like offers very little sugar anything.

It's just a different way of rockin a language that I think like a people are liking more and more and that java script with its ever changing nature is like, gosh, what do we need to learn now and is just somebody's a little pet project. But there are certain things that are absolutely just synthetic sugar. Um some people can argue that most things in languages are just synthetic sugar, but you can imagine some new kind of way to loop over a race or something.

You're like look at this. That's a new way. In fact, I just saw when I was looking at this other post power gz bec or something a great blogger.

Yeah yeah. The earlier in August, what's new in atmosphere? Pt twenty twenty four.

And it's just a list of the new things that are now in, yes, twenty twenty four. There's there's one of them called cash. What was IT array group array grouping. So there's going to be object dot group by yeah it's kind of cool, right? They take my .

function of group objects now I can't .

even tell like ladies .

or whatever before, right? Like you'd always you d always reach for some to do this, like basically like organized by whatever. If I have a lisa blog post, like. Organizing by tag or something something .

that's inside the object yeah that's in the array. So it's like a one level nested deep, but this will look into the array and and pull a value out and give you a call back functions so you can group them buy something else that does look nice. IT also looks very profitable or very low dash hable, as IT was.

That was literally in low dash, right? I think this would say that we should not add that directly to the language of java script. That s in some higher abstracted thing that I get, like leave IT, leave IT at some others step .

I get that. But I also like, like, let's make IT Better. You know, like, like I what I love is is these are backed by, like sea binaries, right?

Like the the sea binary for ray group is is gonna hopefully be faster than me doing IT on the client in java script. T so like like give me that. You know like I want that. So um I don't want the language to freeze.

I want to how the famous wanting go is that there's only a four loop that's that's the only kind of loop that you can have and that on purpose because it's the fast as kind. So any other faster, therefore the best.

but that's the deal.

And if if that was true in jaws's group, then you want all other types to be in tactic sugar. You want, you want something to compile IT down to a four loop. Because that's what he needs to be, to be fast and take .

for each from my cold, dead hands. That's a good one.

Like I member.

Yes, once good. And one's from the one thousand thirties, four of and four, and you like one of these is not the right one.

IT just doesn't explain the difference well. And it's not like a big problem in my life. I can just figured out in two seconds fit I like features that are a little more self .

explantatory yeah yeah.

But then there's other things that feel like they cannot be in that same category. The very first one in polls post here is about um like testing the validity of the unicode version of of bit of emotion es, where you can see if that well formed or not. That's it's kind of like a language feature that needs to talk to some deeper part of a unicode standard to me that feels you you can't shift that in the same way in the world of ccs land.

IT reminds me of like container query y. You can't just, Polly fill container queries. It's not happening.

There is no alternative syntax that just makes container queried work. IT needs to IT needs to be part of the browser itself to work, you know. But I guess that's the point here is that sometimes that's the case.

And if IT needs to be a low level language feature because IT needs to like talk to the computer in the browser and deeper things, then IT can go in J S zero or whatever. But if it's just sugar and IT can be compiled away, that that should be in the other thing. I mean, I it's so theoretical.

arch my work computer and i'm going to get a call for H. R. Did routing to very bad jeopardise websites are illicit? Not bad, I guess, but a listen, java travel now did I got fired because .

of I was .

thinking we need to maybe put some t shirts in the um we should spin up a shop like take for each from my cold dead hands is a good shirt ah what was I think of earlier sunday's are for R S, S. Would be a good one of shoe. I had another one that was really good.

But anyone, I just, we, we have a couple few catch phrases we need to do. Man, we need the much. Man, many standards.

I'm happy to do IT. I'm happy to.

now that we've reached the age ery.

realized that there's no money and t shirts there are only for fun yeah .

and he has to be print on demand because I know, I know fast fashion is bad, but I also cannot have another t shirt of boxed ful of t shirts in my house. sick. I'm forbidden from having that too. Yeah, believe I only .

have a few questions we could get to from from the people. Here's one from darby dicks in the .

third amazing name. I hope that power me.

IT feels a little southern doing .

yeah now draws .

a line between two different types of websites in this question, saying, you know, I works for a university, knows dw, the big group deal, big complex, whatever that may build other stuff for IT, just like uses nelia y and a little eleven ty, whatever. First small sites. And thinks of those as the two is two kind of extremes, simple g simple hosting, whatever.

And monos double bad boy thing there. enough. But there's a point between those two extremes where I want to a nerd out a bit, extend my skills and just use a tiny bit of database I want. A website would say a single piece of dynamic data that I can do an admin back, and so I can update that piece of data when and wherever, and I can channel that piece of data into a nice light public site. So a little bit of database what would you use for a little bit of database?

Um you know well so there's a lot of you know headless cm s tools right like you got your uh hosted ones like a content for and um that I see immediately to .

like it's like five hundred and fifty dollars months or and so it's really for enterprise but there what's .

the expensive um yeah but strappy is another call when you know like that you can do um you know you just need a database in cloud .

you know go to .

her couldn't think of yeah but like you do, like you could do heroic e spin up a database in heroic e being bound that zero dollars or eight dollars among the something and then you get on a thing like a retool or something that that hooks into that database, you know but the trick is now your your small APP needs to hit the database securely. And so you're talking about either at run time hitting IT, which you probably need a server list function or or you know or even maybe look at the cloud workers over on cloud flare.

Well, that's right to stop immediately because I would just go. Kv, you like that.

I am right. Yeah.

you need a little bit of database there. That's the point of IT. K, V, meaning key value, meaning it's not like postgrads.

IT is not a relational database. You cannot SQL clear yet. It's like a flat D, V. Its super dumb on purpose. You can, you have a key and you ask for the value of that key, and that gives IT to you.

So in your case, darbey x and you could say, like my data is the key in the value of my data is like A, I don't know, I could be an integers or a string or more likely for you, a little piece of of stringy fied, Jason, that you pluck out and you do IT ever, you're going to do IT, and you put IT back as Jason. Now the cool thing about this is a cloud function like that. You can hit client side, you will have a URL, and you could fetch against IT, if you want to.

But what kind of cool is that you? Because it's a little confusing to think about. But where a cloud flared worker can run can be like per request, like as its serving the HTML you can have you can run the cloud.

The worker during that face is the HTML that is delivering already has been manipulated by the worker, if need be meaning you could take that chunk of Jason and drop in in a text tera hidden texter ia to grab or something or a script, inject a script tag and you know, say, window data, window that by data equals that string of Jason or or whatever, you can do that kind of thing, meaning a client side request for the data is not even necessary. It's already there, which adds is a little bit of power to IT. Now I won't kind of deep in the weeds a little bit there, but the point of that is spinning up a post grass and making authenticated client side functions to hit IT is like a lot.

I was like, yeah, I think K, V, beyond. So you get an admin dashboard for K, V, that is like total. Is that a problem? no. Like if i'm taking customer data like into your own security number and I just have a in a APP that just .

every APP has that problem.

O K, I if you .

have a team or something, cloud flared, the website itself has roles and permissions and what not that you can give different people access to different .

parts of stuff. Okay, yeah, no, I think like, yeah, I think I would probably say cloud for A K with the choice then for like you just need a little bit of data. Yeah cause yeah, I mean, cause otherwise you get in this whole big security context of like, okay, only the authenticate admin user can hit this and point know if that's what you want to build.

That's awesome. You could do that. I would also like maybe look at like turso or something like when these S Q like kind of things you know just .

to hit a database um yeah note that if you are still able to use notice fy this was this came a little later .

but notify notify blos that are like kind of the same thing .

okay so that yeah, it's unstructured data as a simple key value data store thing. And they can also be I I think they're even more reflexible though and very easy to write.

Well, there you go. Now i've mean, I think that's a really easy way to do IT.

I guess it's just kind of what do you how big do you want to go? How much data are you updating? Is that really just like one key value? Like make IT as this as possible on yourself, you know? And then like that's where like with the database rights now you have like this whole cashing layer you need to do so you don't throw out your database every time you refresher the website. And then you have this whole thing like that's where that cloud flared, seems like really durable would be the right where diamonds.

yes, we're talking so abstract like do you need off anyway? Because what you're trying to build is that ah you know that just .

jumps you up in complexity a whole bunch. That s the other day to you posted a on that you want build a simple website. What would you do? You know, this is a fun thought experiment, but I think we are talking in the discord.

Like I think it'd really fun to like be like how would you build this given these like client briefs? You know like like just like client is based in washington. Client a only has three engineers.

A client you know like has this and that you know like um really picky about fonts, you know like wants to tinker and update the text of the website every single day. You know like you can go through all your client like uh your your past cent nine, my clients and just write them out fully abstracted. You know just be like do like how would you build a website for this person with these needs and maybe you mix image all these things and randomly ly .

generated feels like you're describing a you know prompt for A I doesn't .

mean sort of like a prompt A I but like but then like, you know, but it's up to people. The original idea in the discord was we had like a bracket, like a, like a final four bracket of cm s technologies and whatever.

And you like, you know, everyone would pick their favorite elements at the top to know IT wins, right? But like, given the set of circumstances, who wins the bracket, you know, I think would be a meat like way to battle royal things i'd love. I would be a fun play home game or on street game.

So maybe i'll build IT. I'll build IT. okay. No, i'm not going to build to the .

answer to the general question of how what are dev is going to do to quickly spin up apps in the future or whatever in IT does seem like like IT or not. It's probably going to be A I something .

maybe but yeah see is really good to yeah .

i'm thinking of right now kind of the most impressive thing that happened recently as the stack blitz announced this belt that new you seen that bolt that new year. H gosh, you should. It's like widely impressive to me. It's one of these. It's a little bit like versus v zero or whatever.

You know you do have to do a prompt, but IT has a bunch of examples and stuff to but you know, type in kind of whatever and IT scaffolds out like a whole last working APP for you based on your prompt. And it's like does pretty good to me, way, way Better than I thought I was. Has a, has A I don't know how it's all built.

I wanted you to make an email for me. Know of thinking about this email. Definitely like scared that htm email for me.

It's like first installed, next J S and you know, IT makes IT made A T S X A type script typed thing. And then I made an email. The end result was kind of cool, but was like, well, that's the worst set of technologies you could have possibly chosen.

I'm not even trying to poke atic because it's the audience for this thing is designed to build stuff with java script apps. I mean, that's what people use stack lets for. It's pushing you towards that kind of thing that stack lets is good at doing.

So no real shape. I am kind of impressed at what is what is able to do though. And IT makes me think like, well, of course, this is how people are going to get started. They're gonna be like.

give me this blue, but do. Well, I said, can you build me search results page with fluent U. I.

Web components? And I started using the react components. So anyway.

nail IT IT really likes to react. So .

it's going to, he turns that so to see what IT out next way to next week to find out if A I built a website, uh, we'll find out. Uh, but thank you to listen for downings this and you pack ata three species, start her favorite up. Uh, adam argo point IT out that on two x that sounds like shirt.

So when I say star heart favorite up sounds like shirt. So i'll just start saying that. So shut IT up in the in the apps men. So shut up in the apps. And then, uh, for some massed on, that's the good one and then, uh, over joints in the this is because that we're cool people out, right? H Chris, you can anything else you you like to say .

feel like when you're six and you think it's fine, but if you're farting, you think it's a problem, know these to be different words.