Fuji Eterna, Final Cut Pro 11, and the Fall of Sony's Airpeak
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Welcome back to the pet pixel .

podcast is for the party.

Don't call .

that James r and .

chis nickles. And as proms last week, joran drink is on vices. So he's not today, well, almost not with us today. He will join us in some segments in two different ways throughout the pot.

Miracle of technology. Yes, Jordan is is enjoying a much deserved to much needed vacation. And so I thought I would fill in jail because before we get started on the show, joran always likes to ask a question, right? yeah.

So as you've seen now, i've got my new space up. I know it's not perfect guys, but we're working on IT trying to go to the echo trying know, but it's a nice new work space for me. And IT is really a man cave absolute of fishing back there in camera.

So here's my question journ for you. What is your ultimate I want to have IT in my man cave, but it's crazy expensive and very hard to obtain what is sort of your dream object or thing you'd like? Have a man.

Um goodness, I haven't really thought about this because i'm pretty happy with mine. For anyone watching on youtube, i'm leaving the neck. The game is dream here with more RGB than I know what to do with.

I got all of my gun, play up and stuff, but I have a nice television here. Now I don't do this. One is, this is new as as of this week. This is one testing .

gern wants first man cave is no more leaky pipes.

That all that would be great. My bathroom being really nice, that that be huge, maybe like a stove down here. So i'd never have to leave. There you go again.

You want a basement sweet, basically turn, what's a basement sweet? Alright, you know, for me, what I would love to have is, what do you .

think I want to have A, I don't know, a gun safe filled .

with shing road? Do I want to an argue cabinet? absolutely. yeah. I want, like a proper old school joystick ark cabinet, preferably one of the S N K ones.

So I can play like all the old neo geo games, like metal slug in summer showdown. And I think I can get them, but they are silly, expensive for what they are when I could just play on on retrospect. So that would be my dreams. sorry. Did you have something other than a bathroom?

I feel like you are expecting me to say like kitchen sized gundover models that you can buy at IT like china or somebody makes them they're like fully motorized and like they have like a time to detail. 你 put， I don't think I actually do because like I would have to dust IT because i'm not gonna get a display case that big.

I think one, the only thing here that I don't have is I would like a different TV stand, one that is like glass, but still strong enough to put A T, V on that I could also put lighting and more models in. That's really the only thing i'm missing. And a bathroom. And still.

is that okay? Let's get, let's give you a bathroom. We can make that happen. I come over and build one for you. Build this IT took forever.

Let's let's do a bathroom. It's really nice, by the way, for anyone watch like this is more crisis vibe than the fact that there's like bits of boat in there. I'd like quite a bit.

I'd like the picture frames you've chosen. I haven recognize that one of the picture over your shoulder, I recognize. And then it's great.

There's me with a fish. There is my daughter. Yeah, I appreciate. I know this actually all old stuff.

I've had to forever, but i've never been able to use IT. So finally got a proper space computer all set up, fly fishing desk and everything over there. So i'm happy.

But I do need A A one up cabinet. So let's make that happen. People, all right.

Well, looping back to what the show is this week was surprisingly busy with stuff, and a lot of IT is usually what we would need George nearby. But we're going to try and very on without him. But I got in the same story this week because we're going talk about photo books.

And like our photo books, still a thing. Where are they going? Like like what's what's the status that and we're talking to the mix book founder, Andrew a.

Thon, who's been doing photo books and printing and such for like a while almost two decades. I think the company founded in my two thousand and six as I was graduating from high school. So and it's going to be very sick.

They are like photo books. It's actually, I found IT incredibly fascinating and actually talking to Andrew and I didn't think I would. So stick for stick ground for that.

alright. Well, let's get to the new story right after our intro.

Our guys, we are back and again, this episode of our podcast has brought you by oim system are very grateful for. That is black friday. They are black friday. Pricing is here. There are incredible savings to be had on own system gear that you do not want to miss.

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Thanks again to the insistent for sponsoring the Peter pics of podcast, and we're going to move on to a fully loaded news section. A what start with a story that dropped like jez? I mean, I think I was asleep on this, dropped. A and then I woke up to IT .

being covered by the team.

New cameras. yeah. So fuji film is developing a dedicated G F X cineas camera called the G F X eterna internal.

Like the G F X one hundred two and the G F X one hundred s two, the G F X eterna will feature a large format, one hundred and two pixel cmos to h sensor. In this case, saying, large format is probably okay, not medium for because film. This is large form APP. And still I disagree with the character's large.

I do. They should not use its medium format, but that's OK.

It's still a very big sensor. So IT is basically, I know, am I wrong? This is essentially the meet the G F X one hundred in a different body.

So this is basically the exact im sense that we have in the G F X one hundred two, the G F X one hundred s two. Now it's in the gfx eterna and IT is a faster sensor for riddle speed than what we had in the older like gf x one hundred as, but we've already tested this and played with IT. So I guess my first impression is it's a nice that fuji film is branching out and making a box camera for video.

I mean, I get IT. They're pushing really good file quality, great log files. The problem is still gonna down to the sensor itself being large and being still too slow for effective video and Frankly honestly, being too high mag pixel account like that's the real problem.

So you know fuji saying things like, okay, this can shoot A K thirty and IT does. The problem is you have to drop the bit rate and sub sample to make that work is just too many maga pixel. You're throwing stuff a way to get that full use of the sensor in the full wide of the sensor.

So it's not an ideal video set up right from the start. The sensor lets IT down. It's just too many magpie's. We even see this with cameras like the seven and five shooting there right now like it's sixty megaplex el as too many.

So I have to either subsample IT or it's got a crop and have a heavy crop and so I get IT who do you film? Have great video technology. They've got the eternity is named after one of the most beautiful profiles that are made for video.

But the problem is, again, the technology, the format is not ideal for video. I'm sure that it'll be some people who are going to get some use out of IT. They might like to really shall IT up the field.

The larger sensor provides you be able to use peel lenses and stuff like that with adapters is cool. And of course, a box camera has some organic ic design features that really important um in lots of attachment points for external monitors, for microphones, traditional batteries and stuff. So i'm not saying it's a bad move. I just think we all have to keep h our expectations in check because the sense itself is just not ideal for piquet video, especially high resolution video .

ah what Jordan sent in a text message this morning is related to what you just said, sends its just dropping the bit rate and sub sapling for video capture like the g affects one hundred two. Jordan says fuji film may be trying to push media format video forward before the sensors already so that's part one of Jordan not being here but still having an opinion he wanted her.

Uh and yeah I I mean, I haven't really I haven't used fug film medium format cameras really at all. And I personally haven't not use them for video either. But looking at this, it's I am a little surprised it's just a rebandage G F X one hundred two personally, I would think yeah IT is nice to have all those.

I think you're right. As you pointed out, there is certainly benefits to this. I was just hoping for something else maybe that would make this more exciting, but I do think that there are going to be people who are going to be very spoked to use this a will certainly no more information soon. I would think that already on display in japan at a trade show yeah that I never heard of, by the way, what is in him of this trade show?

It's and again, the key thing says you can get good quality video out of the g fx system. I mean, sure. And again, beauties and out of the holder, you got apple progress.

You got four to two tempt file video recording, twelve bit, four to two progress. Rob black magic role is a very capable platform. They have good tools. The the I guess the real thing is when we found using this Cameron Jordan testing for video, what we basically found is a lot of the apc or or full frame platforms because the sub sapling involved image quality, sharpness, detail are basically going to be the same on smaller platforms.

So then you're like, well, why would I just save the money on a smaller platform, have smaller lenses, have lighter cameras for given usage, lots of third party adapters and stuff like that? And so yeah you're kind of like, why why does he mean you can get good video to them? But it's it's just why yeah .

the show that I did, I was forgetting the name of as the interview twenty twenty four show in japan from I never heard of IT, never heard of IT either. But that's where IT is. And honestly, we'll probably see more of this soon.

They'll gon to launch IT next year. Sense the core technologies of this are known. I actually don't think we'll to wait that long to see IT.

I would be shocked we didn't see IT by you know N A B time next year. So early first quarter twenty twenty five. All right. Moving on another Jordan topic. And this is the special Jordan topic, the reason the show was a little bit late to publish today because we are waiting for apple to make this announcement public. This is the announcement of final cut for eleven, the first to a new numbers, final cut in since, like the twenty ten era, and IT up and IT is joined by, excuse me, and update to the ipad APP as well as final cut camera answer that lets listen to what Jordan has to say because he recorded something for us earlier.

Okay, Jordan and I just wants to jump in here for second, and I want absolutely no interruptions from Chris and Jerry, and i'm not expecting any because i'm actually recording this after spending a little bit of time with both final cut camera and the new final cut pro eleven on mac. So let's start with the updates on final cut camera. There by far the easier to go through.

So the big one here is we now have the ability to record progress log, but in a compressed each other two, six, four, they call H E V C uh video compression, which gives you vastly smaller files like at least at twenty of the size of the press hq that we had to record before. So this is a big deal. I just felt like poos H Q was kind of in practical for most people using IT.

But of course, i'm worried like, is there gonna a big quality hit? And basically, I saw here what i've seen with the black magic camera, which is that, yes, there's a little bit more usable information recorded in the shadows and occasionally in the highlights. But IT is extremely minor.

I think we're talking maybe like half a stop in the shadows, less than that in the highlights. So for the vast majority of people, unless you need the absolute widest dynamic range and most color flexibility, I would shoot in agv c, the age to six, four protect. That's what i'm going to be doing with all the pedophile who were going forward.

And it's really odd they didn't roll this into the main camera APP at the exact same time because this is so consumer friendly. But the black magic camera APP is a little bit more advanced as well because before, if I was recording Perez log, I could only look at the very flat log image that was coming out of that. Now if i'm shooting apple a log, I can just apply a lot.

Now unfortunately, it's only apple's lut, which i'm not crazy about. This may be a little bit, uh, over processed plastic. He kind of like what you get with the default camera, but at least now you've got a punch your image to look at.

And this makes me think down the road, they're going to be adding support for custom lets in the future. The other big difference here is we can now record four k one twenty if you have an iphone sixteen pro or pro max. I honestly, this should have been ready at launch.

I don't know why IT so long and we've got a level. And I was shocked by how long apple was talking about the level on this because, yes, a level widely while this way. And if the cameras tilted up or down too much, yeah, IT has a level.

But okay, let's get over to the big, really cool stuff, which is the updates to final cut pro eleven. Now it's been final cut x or ten. Apple always says ten, but I don't know jumping from seven to X, I always thought like next to me anyways, this is the first time they've done a full version change in fourteen years.

Uh, so we're expecting big things here and by far, the biggest feature upgrade. Is their new magnetic masking. So basically what this will do is let you highlight an object are going to use their machine learning algorithms to isolated. It'll scan through, make sure it's properly clipped out through the rest of your video clip, and then you can apply different grades and effects to IT.

The most obvious one, i've got a few examples here, would be applying a different look to a host like Chris nickles, you know, brightening him up from the background or just playing with his skin tone while keeping the background unaffected. And I was honestly very surprised. That seems very effective even read from the start where when we saw some um road to scoping tools starting to appear in final cut IT took a few versions before they actually worked properly.

But this looks very effective and you can drop on any of your color grating tools, a bunch of your different effects with that. And I think we're going to have a lot of fun going forward with this in terms of performance, all I had to tested on was this older original m one imac. I didn't want to put on my working computer because i've still got projects on the go.

And I never recommend doing major software updates when you're in middle of a project. But even on that older m one, when I applied a ask, IT would basically scanned about a quarter of real time going through an analyzing those frames. Once that's done, that's the really demanding part.

You can apply different effects, tweak the strength of the grade and then you don't have to go through that long rendering process. Again, it's just when it's creating the mask, and it's pretty effective even on older hardware like this. So on more modern machines, this i'll be basically a real time process for you to create these mask.

So the other big thing that we've seen here is automatic captions, and there's lots of third party apps that are doing this, but it's great to be able to do IT right within the editing software, especially if you've got an embargo that I need to hit. I can do all the editing and have captions ready to go write at launch. And I expect you'll be able to see captions on most of our projects going forward.

It's not a huge time thing to do that. So like many automated caption tools, h this does have a lot of difficulty with more technical things. So when we were talking about lens jargon or things like, okay, I didn't understand the word tamon really through IT for a loop in a lot of different way, but the actual Normal speaking phrases IT was incredibly accurate with the exception.

Sometimes you would get like weird spelling mistakes, not even where it's picking the wrong word, but it's just misspelling a word that already knows and it's a computer. So I don't know why that is happening, but i'm sure that's gona get ironed out. But the captions are just onna get Better and Better because this is using apple's language model that they are going to be constantly developing.

But for the time being, I can say this is a huge time saver. It's a wonderful feature. What I wasn't able to test is the new spatial video. Now I can drop spatial video from my iphone.

Went right into the project and I could see what each of the two eyes would be seeing but unfortunately um unlike most of you, everybody's just running around with our apple vision pros this day. But i'm an outline. I don't have an apple vision pro.

So I wasn't able to actually test that, that something I would love to do in the future. The other thing I couldn't test is we now have b raw support, black magic cross supports that's on all of their cameras and even some external record ders can capture view its very efficient raw video. And previously it's been limited to to ventures resolve.

Now we have support for IT in final cut, but I didn't have any black magic cameras kick in around here that I could record a clip and tested. But IT does look like the interfaces exactly the same as what we see with progress raw. So very easy to make exposure by baLance adjustments, all that kind of stuff.

They have made some smaller tweak as well, like the ability to reorganize the vertical height of effects and titles to quickly shufu them around as well as the ability to look at the full with a height of your entire project, which is mostly useful, I think, for bragging on social media about how complicated your edit is. Neither of those are a huge deal. And I really didn't get into performance because i'm testing IT on an old imac.

I really want to see if we see a nice perform bump. I really want to see if we get a nice performance bombs with some of the more modern machines. But basically the big takeaway is apple added a bunch of useful stuff that i'm really excited about.

And it's worth pointing out. I really thought when they said apple final cut to eleven like ah here we go we're moving to a subscription model or enough to plunk down my three hundred dollars again. You know I did pretty good only paying that once over a decade when I bought this software back in twenty twelve.

But no, they're going to roll your current final cut ten purchases right into final cut eleven, and they're not moving to a subscription model. So this is still very affordable software. And I really think with the new grading tools, with the automated masks and moving over to supporting B A apples, really targeting to inchi resolve users with this update.

And I just think it's going to be a very interesting time for nonlinear video editing going forward. But anyways, i'm going to let the guys talk again and i'm to jump out of here before I leave though. Hey, the link to my movember page is below. So if you want to support men's health, that's a great way to do IT as this thing just keeps on flourishing in the future.

Everybody.

sorry. Well, thank you, Jordan, for that break down. A anything to add there, Chris, that he didn't cover where you're thought. Personal thoughts on IT.

I think we have an interesting dynamic origny because he's been using final cut forever and on on the imac platform. And I refuse to use a mac computer. I mean, i'm PC all the way.

That's just how it's going to be. But I have now migrated doing a lot of work on the ipad pro. And I really like IT. I have to say I really like IT, not just because of either insanely powerful honestly, for a tablet, but also very convenient to take with.

I love that I can even throw IT in my like seven leader camera bag, my wooden craft pilot and IT fits in there and I can trouble with and stop so I really do love IT for that. Um and so that's that's let me focus more on final cut pro for ipad, where jorn is using the final cut x right? And so it's perfect for what I do like final cut pro.

You've got a lot of capabilities. I used used to venture resolve a lot, but I never delved deep into its capabilities because i'm i'm not Jordan, you know like my video editing for trail fitters, it's more simple. I want to be quick.

I want to get IT out. We do shortage. We do reals. We do on the water staff. And I wanted to be nice and and easy and breezy and quick um where Jordan really does yeah he gets integrated and he takes this time I means a true professional narrowed.

What I love about final cut pro for ipad is just how streamlined IT is, how easy IT is and and designed to be very quick. So there are some thoughtful updates. They've now updated two point one.

And the first thing that really does save me a lot of time, you know, programs are wide, like these auto tune functions were though this kind of auto grade or clips. But the new enhanced uh, lighten color button is fantastic. I was actually really impressed by IT because I Normally hate just the one click auto settings, but IT really tweak all your settings sometimes IT basically makes a clip look fantastic.

Sometimes that gives you like a very close starting, like a very point where you can kindly refine IT. But it's a great way to save a lot of time um especially because with the ipad, I still can't you can't globally like apply a color grade to all your clipsed, which is really knowing it's still GTA like copy paste. But this does mitigate some of the issue because I go through click, go through click and that really speed things up.

So I actually found that be very sell. Another cool strength with the ipad is the the coupling with the pencil or the pencil pro because IT does give the ability to draw on your videos, and I use that like all draw arrows or draw hand written text all, you know, like if we have a river all show like, oh, this is where the fish are. I dress circles around IT like, it's kind of a fun, playful way to mess around.

So this new version updates some of the optic feedback controls, but IT also adds more brushes, which is really cool. So now there's like a crayon brush, kind of a playful child like c craon brush. There's kind of the smoke water color brush that you can use.

And they've got this line drawing pen, which reminds me of like an a fountain inc. Pen for collection phy. And now IT shows you the orientation of that nib.

So you know you can go from thin lines to the broad strokes and really know exactly where that's gonna. So I mean, a little brushes. I I going to play around with that.

I mean, I going played around with a bit, but i'm going to play around a lot more. Another cool thing that I love on there is the sound's tracks. They're all cloud base.

You can download them. They are fun. They give you a whole bunch of different kinds you can use different generations, different mood.

Um and so I like that. I love the AI timing. This isn't new. This has already been on final cut pro for ipad.

But the AI timing where you can put a soundtrack in and it'll modify IT to fit the length of your clip, that is very cool and it's very effective. But now I find that i'm now using the same tracks now over starting to get some repetition because there's not that many. So um apple added twenty five more sound's tracks a lot.

I played with a couple. These sound good. I mean, it's just nice to have that variety, twenty five mores, a big jump and that anything people really looking for.

There's five more module module transition. There's like a couple more reframing effects. There's like a in color process, which I don't really use.

But again, that might save somebody a lot of time if they wanted to apply these filters. so. There's still some things that are annoying like we still can. I can import a project from the ipad into a mac, but we still can't move projects from the mac back onto the ipad.

So I think what a lot of people are doing is using an ipad to do a lot of the drawer effects, the life drain effects, and then they're importing that into their mac projects like I get IT. But to be nice to have that across platform, i'm not saying that I would give me to buy a mac IT won't. But you know I might help for somebody who like Jordan.

I know he's using a mac and he doesn't really want to use the ipad because he's like I can't go back and forth of IT. So some nice thoughts, updates were getting more stuff that we want and and the enhancement color does make IT easier. But we still need to see some major improvements to just how ipad imports, exports and handles multiple clipsed. But I like, I like the improved.

Before we move on, there is one note I wanted to make a premier added that one click grade feature into the latest version of the APP, and I have used IT. And I will also say that IT does also have varying levels of, uh, goodness sometimes, wow, that's great. Straight up.

Sometimes i've also notice if there's no Green or if there's too much Green in the like the base footage IT really doesn't know what to do with IT and the grade the um but you can still quickly clean IT up using the limitation color panel. So I like that this is becoming more of the thing because grading lets can often be our grading log can be a pain in the boat without the, at least here, you don't need those cube files to get something useful. So yeah.

no. With the apple enhance light and color button. What I will say is, if you ve got like very simple backgrounds, like you doing below, like you on shooting of a real against a table or whatever, where the scenes very simple, the lights consistent, I mean, it's like banging on boom, boo boo boo, boom off off to click and looks great if you're out on the water, you got like, or you know, I mean you youtube or whatever, you've gone grass and trees and sky in different weather conditions.

IT does a good job, but that is not going to be consistent. You like even on the same day going through your clips, IT will do maybe things a little bit differently to each file and not going to match exactly whether the color pace, color grade would work Better in that regard. But it's never that far off.

I was actually pretty impressed, like IT looks good. IT just doesn't story match. So you might have to tweet things a little bit or just copy paste your color effect from the first. But often my timelines is going to be one long talking point, which i'm just going to stop and and so it's nice that I can just apply enhanced in color to the entire clip. IT looks great that I can chop up up and move whatever, and that saving me a lot of time.

right? That's enough on apple. Let's move on to hostile blood. Who announced a new seventy five millimeter at three point for p lands. That review from you guys is coming, but I was wondering if you had any .

thoughts on this before. Head pic, soul.

I don't think .

that point. I haven't had a chance to play with that. I do love portrait ranges. This is maybe bit more of like like an environmental portrait, like full body kinder portrait lens.

We're going to get nice depth field like two point eight equivalent and depth field with IT. I'm sure it'll be sharp. I think what's really interesting about this, probably the most appealing thing is it's fairly affordable.

I don't like twenty three hundred dollars or something like that. Us I mean, I know that there are twenty two hundred U S like that's crazy expense. Why I know but for his blood that's very good um and it's also very compact is got good out of foxing motors.

So I here so i'm here to try IT. I think you would be a killer like street lands walk around lens IT keeps the whole package pretty compact. So I want to play with IT, but I haven't touched IT yet. I'm sure it'll very nice optically.

What's the equivalent focal length speaking?

And I mean, it's like sixty. It's like like around a sixty millimeter lands. Not bad. You know .

that little too. No writer maybe like thirty are crazy.

Like half is wide. No, no, this this is not bad. I mean, I like IT for walk around stuff. Sixteen was actually really nice.

No, I like fifties because thirty five just stupid, and a fifty mill gives you that kind of Normal range. But I actually like a little bit tighter, like I considered an eighty five medical frame equivalent. My kind of standard lens for a lot of street shooting like IT looks natural to me.

So this is not bad, of course, with the hundred maa picture sense ge that a lot of them to you if you want to get a little bit tired. So I think it's great. I'm either i'm very here to play with that.

Alright, moving on. SONY last week discontinued the L P S one. I don't know. I'm getting the sense that this is them discontinuing air p overall. I would love to be wrong.

I hope maybe we will get in to I am in the doubt phase of that. But the quote from SONY is due to recent changes and business environment. Cells of the erp swan and related products products, except for some accessory, will will end at the end of market.

Twenty twenty five. Uh, this is a kind of sad, slow, quiet end to a drone that had a lot of fan fair when I was first announced and then just proceeded to fizzle. Yeah, I wrote a opinion piece over the weekend about why I think this drone failed.

And I compared directly to the go pro karma. And the reason the karma failed is the same reason that the air p failed. The very basics of drone flying were not done well by either sonny's air peak was a pain in the but to get in the air IT had very poor navigation ah and IT was also weirdly segmented at the purchase point that was a nine thousand dollar drone.

But that is only the drone. IT does not include the camera and IT does not include the gamble. Those are all separately.

Later, when SONY realized that their GPS system that was built into the s one initially wasn't very good, they had another like twenty five hundred dollar add on part, sorry, I undersold IT four thousand dollar at on part that was designed to help you Better understand its positioning. And then IT also, they also released batteries that would last slightly longer. A like you are getting with two batteries in the thing. Initially you are getting maybe eleven to fourteen minutes of flying out.

crazy. Yeah.

they increase crazy about hoping IT was around twenty minutes. But like if you were to buy this or they also had another gindele that was lighter, so the batteries had to do less work to hold. The drone could last long.

You anyway, does not matter. You buy all of these things. You get the most up to date stuff.

What say? You even bought the original, and then you bought the ad on and replace the gamble. You would have spent more than twenty thousand dollars before you even put a camera on IT. This thing also didn't work very well.

We reviewed ah she's wonder we review that had been a while ago, couple years ago and IT, we used I I used the efforts of a very well known drone pilot who was piloted all kinds of models from various brand he's very good at is his job. And he was so frustrated by this thing and we gave IT two tries. He got two models in. One of them was just like bork from the the getty.

He could barely get IT off the ground is that must be something wrong with this particular one ah he got another one in in the exact same problems persistance IT IT was just not fun to fly IT IT doesn't might take away as IT doesn't really matter how good the camera is on these things like go pro was pushing how good as camera was and then SONY was saying you could put any after series cameras in. Your quality is basically limitless, right? If you can't get the drown flying part, right.

will not get you get nice footage from the grass man, you get no, get footage like three feet off the ground. No big deal. It's it's funny. It's like song.

I mean, SONY a huge company and and I feel like a lot of their ventures outside of the realm of cameras entice struggle, right? Like smart phones, they struggle. Laptops used to be great, but not anymore.

And and drones. And I mean, I can not imagine how much like R N D money went into building things like insane amount of money throwing away. And I get it's a lucrative market, is very hard to get past. I mean, a lot of the more affordable chinese manufacturer but obviously especially D J I and D J I did a great job because I think they started with thrones that were affordable.

Getting you into that brand, getting used to the interface of flying controls um so that you can have a high end drone and a small affordable drone and a contact in your backpack drone all from the same companies in the same controller. And so it's hard to compete if I get IT. Uh but yeah it's funny.

I am only shaming SONY because when you shame them, they tend to get really angry. They hold the garage, and then they do something even Better. So this is, they like, they respond to tough love.

So, but who knows? I think they might drop out. It's such a difficult market to get past. D J, I.

And and IT looks like D G I is not getting band as much as we kind of thinking they might be. So of this, maybe they are. I mean, and and so that might be kind of what SONY was banking on, I don't know.

Maybe there's just gonna shell everything in the drown business until something changes then and then release IT. Yes, that's way too much money. I mean, even the highest n dg eyes are going to be far more capable for less money.

yeah. I mean, I was rooting for the airpix because I wanted I like competition in the market. The same reason I love simmon and tamon existing because they force manufacturer to do Better because they're just doing so well.

I wanted SONY to do that to D J. I. And that way, both of them could improve over time.

And it's especially problematic now with DJ I having their issues with the U. S. government.

So like there was definitely a place for SONY to succeed here. And that doesn't look like it's going to happen, unfortunately, and it's sad. nice. Okay, Chris, i've got a product for you and I don't know fect camera for you.

I don't know this .

for me about a non disposable digital disposable camera. How does that sound? Does that that strike your fancy?

Yeah, oh yeah. It's it's triggering all sorts of excitement and interesting curiosity. I just really want to know what it's about, and then I actually found what it's about.

I think it's stupid. I don't know. I mean, i'm no dragon. I'm no shark. Yes, you. So this .

is the the flashback one thirty five. IT is a digital camera designed to give you the experience of a pointing shoot film camera like the disposables. And IT went up on the australian version of shark tank, which is still shark tank, not dragons. Dand dragon dance.

Justin. They actually have shown.

yes, they received a deal from one of the sharks for five hundred thousand australian dollars, which is about three hundred and thirty thousand us. dollars. Uh, IT was originally a kick starter. Is that what is very popular in may twenty twenty three and earned eight hundred thousand doors .

and acting at the time.

Uh, and they are apparently doing great. So yeah, you want one?

No, I mean good for them. So like they are building on this sort of analogue desire right now. Clearly, you don't have to pay for film costs, which is know I guess from a budgetary standpoint is difficult for a lot of people to getting different anode.

E IT does add up. But I mean, yes, so they look like a disposable carriage, means the handling garbage and there's basically no controls other like a shutter in a flash um I assume that are using like a kind of funny very basic lens. You're not gonna get veneta, maybe softness and that is sort of analog.

Look, that's all cool. I think that's great. But also to like limit you to like a role of shot twenty seven shots as a limit um and then you gotta upload the photos and then wait a day to get them downloaded.

Is that correct? Like all of the all of the to me, it's like all of the inconvenience of analogue e with none of the benefit. I mean, I don't know.

I think it's I think it's really I think it's I don't know. I think it's stupid. The only thing I love about this is you actually wine the the shot before you take another.

I think that's great, all for IT. But yeah, I want something like I like a pen tax seventeen wait makes way more sense, you know. I mean because then you're getting the analog experience. You're waiting twenty four hours for like a an absolutely uh, reasonable reason and you're getting that analogue look and the image quality honest sly is probably Better on film than this thing you knows. But yeah.

on them a comment, a comment are pointed out and I didn't realize this until I read that. Look how close that lenses to the grip.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're put your fingers all over IT, which is which is, I guess, very true to the original right? They are trying to capture basic like let's make a camera that captures every terrible aspect of the original that .

we can get up. They're liking IT. It's a hundred blocks for this thing comes in. Yes, IT is limited. That shoots like twenty seven pictures before you have to go like, quote, develop them so you can't just keep shooting. Uh, yeah, I I mean, you know what good on him for getting the the deal and for seemingly making a fantastic popular product. But IT is not for me, and IT is probably not .

for most petofi c i'll test on a video and IT IT sounds fun, but I I don't want one. No, I don't .

want one.

Okay, last speak very .

real ideas that aren't doing well.

I think the idea the idea was OK um but it's gone very, very wrong so I know not any you listening. We will recall in twenty twenty three, like early twenty twenty three, ben roll announced that IT is was making a self leveling tripod called the data and they did a kick starter a couple months later. And IT raised nearly two point five million dollars on that kick starter, which is not uncommon.

They said that the campaign would produce products by the following june. So this was like a march. So three months later, get you get IT and you know sense beno is a full company like they make tripods already.

They are very success on several million dollar company, i'm assuming, and they have huge distribution globally. Hitting a june delivery date seemed completely reasonable. Unfortunately, that did not happen uh, for a vast majority of backers, of which there are over four thousand.

They have not received a data and there have been multiple situations that have made them feel bad. More like bene o listed the product as like available to buy on their website. Uh, you can just change IT after the kick starter finished and that was before people were even getting their back, the ones that they got from backing ah that page said expected shipping in may twenty twenty four IT still says .

that by the way, if you go to that page now.

yeah so it's not it's not shipping. Um the problem with this is that the company benee is based out of china ben roll that most north americans know is managed mostly by the map group, which has ownership of a lot of products like iconic uh, several others. Let me see here the ones that you might know, Allen chrome Brown color, saronic shamoon a temba x right, nandy coupon.

Those are all mp group along with beno. Uh, MC group is not involved at all in this. This is all general global is out of china. And I think because of some issues with translations, because of some problems with understanding culture, uh, they have really upset a lot of blockers and they weren't really being great with issuing refunds when asked, especially when we're approaching two years since this thing was already announced. Um it's not been good. You can read the full story on Peter pixel, but if you are a bene al data backup er and you want your money back and you're based in the e in north america, beno USA, which is a map group, will help you get your refund. That information is in the story if you wanted, if you are not having in the success getting IT through the kick starter.

you know like it's hear about these kicks arts. I mean the disposable cameras doing great right now and most of the time the kick starter campaign are .

pretty successful. So design yeah .

and and they do grade with them. And so but it's interesting to see like I get where like a grass roots brand new kind of venture might have problems getting off the ground but like ben rose, a big name and they make fantastics tripe and they have for decades in mac group. I mean, I know they're not involved in this, but they do manage.

They they have oversight and there they're very successful that so yeah, it's surprising. And I I know Jordan's gonna play with one maybe I don't know there's even a point like is this thing kind of dead in the water? I don't know.

Yeah I mean, I we have one that we were holding on to to do a comparison of multiple soft levels in tripods uh because the one from small rig, which is not like battery Operate anything, is just from one end you can level was a direct competitor and that is now available. We were gonna a try and do one, probably trying get an edl cron one two because adult ron also announce one.

Um at this point, we might just be like now because it's like now there's no point in trying to promote a product that is clearly struggling, clearly struggling. I one of the notes I ever got to mention on that trip, by the way, is that IT is now heavier than that was when I was originally announced. Like overall hear.

that's what people want .

cause by the time they got the part, yeah, they want to have your tripod yeah people, yes.

I want to have your tripod. That doesn't work. And I want to wait for IT. I mean, who has an eaten food that inspired in may twenty twenty four, right, like a bottle of soy or something.

I mean, it's all good, right? Like what could possibly go wrong? So yeah, I don't mind waiting. I don't mind waiting for something way passed to date. I'll need IT.

Well, twenty, twenty three.

Actually it's it's so. Oh, oh, no. That's crazy.

Who you didn't, I know, do that way to me to two years. Now you're going to get sick. Venus is going to make everybody sick.

Uh, so there's that story. If you want to read more, link the description below. But we're going to start moving on to our main story, which is we're going to talk about photo books with Andrew, a phony founder and CEO of mix book.

But before we do that, i'd like to thank our main story sponsor, Cameron. Cameron has holiday savings that are worth checking out. Save up to two hundred or three hundred dollars canadian. That's you, your canadian twenty dollars us. Dollon select lenzing including the excEllent twenty eight to seventy five two point eight D I three V X D G two .

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To do want to add something there, why does one know? Is the camera ninety mail on that last turn?

Well, we like long, right. I hope IT is we got to play with IT.

We recently released our review on IT, and I know it's a long time coming. It's been for a while, but beautiful lens, beautiful beauty ends. And if i'm getting three hundred of my dollars and you're only getting two hundred of your dollars, that's that's a really good deal. Maybe I should try to A, I mean, that is on the twenty to seventy .

five IT doesn't look like there are that is on here, which is a shame. But the seventy to one eighty of two point eight is on here.

And what that is an island to.

They've got a couple of primes, these for Sunny emt, the four millimeter f two point eight and twenty millimeter f two point eight. Uh and but the other the rest of them look like they are zones and they cover a huge range. As I was saying, you can get those prime lenses that offer sharp detail and superior image quality, not the ninety, but some others.

Fast White ankle zoom lens are also available that give you dynamic landscapes and architecture shots you can shop and save now at tamra dash americas dot com link in the description below. thanks. Time on.

And now we're gonna talk to Andrew in interview we did yesterday. Let's go to past us. And we are joined by Andrew, left on the C.

E. O and co founder of mix book. Nice to see you entry. Thanks joining us this morning.

Glad to be here. Nice to meet you guys.

yeah. Thank you so much.

Either for people who don't know about your company and or any of the history, I want you give us a brief history of IT. And like what you guys are.

what you guys do yeah so mix book started in two thousand six. The data IT was before the iphone. And are you I.

by the way.

yeah it's crazy. No, believes that when they when they hear that we started that long ago, and really the concept for us was the democratized creativity. We thought there are so many stories being made.

There are so many people out there capturing your photos. Digital cameras have LED to an explosion of photography. Little did we know how crazy that, oh, when we thought, men, where are people going to capture these stories? My mom put them in these little albums.

And the only photo books at the time was basically the album online. Take your photos, put them in these little boxes and call IT today. And that's all there was we came up with this idea of making photo books more creative, and that's really what we've been doing for teen years. And that's why we're known for that's we're known for.

So like would you say you're like prime competitors or like like what's shutter fly ah what's another one? I I degree remember another book, the company that people use. But like what makes you stand out?

Yeah you mean shelter flies? The main one for sure. If you were asked our customers, they would tell you IT all started with them saying we want photo books to be more creative, we want more design options and couldn't be fun.

Like right now, it's not fun, but scrapped thing is fun. Could you make IT fun on a computer? And so that's what we really set out to do.

And if you ask our customers today, they're going to tell you the same three thinks it's the competitivity, it's the design, is the fun. Now they're also going to say quality. Quality really matters. And it's easy to forget because everyone in the space, you don't exist if you didn't focus on quality the moment your photo books are falling apart of having a problem, you're not going to come back to that company again, that's critical.

So you on that same no, Andrew, because there is so much competition now online when IT comes these hot top programs, what sets mix books apart? You guys are one of the first players. How have you stayed in the game as long? And capture customers happy.

It's the experience to software. How do you make a software that's creatively empowers so customers can do exactly what they want and not just get all the little details right and move the stickers in the right place? But also, so that is fun on the other side, right? Because creative empowerment and fun, they go together for a certain amount of people, but most people think they just wanted easy. Well, then they get IT easily.

Like, but way IT doesn't have this detailer forgot this photo or I needed this thing or ultimately result is my story's not there. And we think about ourselves not as a photo book company, but as a storytelling company, because we think storytelling is what's interesting, why apple and google have all of your photos. But the stories are not there.

The stories are here, or the stories are here. And that's really the art. That's the art and science of IT. How do you get people stories out there? Lot of people can do .

us for I see so line that the mix book is a software company. So you guys are fully focused on making that experience. So how does that work from a business perspective? How does the logistics of actually delivering product go?

Yeah, so we have ninety partners around the world, awesome partners. Many of them have been our partners for ten plus years, right? These are long term relationships.

And this is it's a serious partners because our their brand is our brand. When the product shows up at the door, they're not wondering our customers is not wondering who printed IT. It's makes up. And that's a really a critical partnership for us, is getting the right partners, making sure we've got the right uniform standards across all of our partners.

Yeah, you'd have to imagine that. Well, me, someone who's never done anything close to this. Imagine that finding consistency, with different printers difficult。 Like.

how did you navigate that right?

Super tough. And you what you wouldn't expect is the same printer, different day, different Operator, is ready a problem as a .

guy in a prince shop? Yeah, I actually do know, do you .

like that was sam. He's on the yeah.

he doesn't run the hindi cry.

Quite right. Yeah, you got to do that guy. So ultimately, it's a lot of the similar things you have to put in place to get consistent quality out of one printer.

You do the same thing across the network, right? And that's really how you ensure it's going to be consistent our customers. We one of our principle since the beginning is we're storing your memories forever. If you made a photo book on max book in two thousand, seven launched, you can still print that book to that. Now I would be Better than IT was back then for a number of reasons, because we have A I upscaling now because our print quality is much Better, because all of our papers are super high quality, designed to last two hundred years.

So actually that that's a good question I want to ask mother because like you yeah I don't myself, I don't really make a lot of photo books at all, Jerry, you don't but my wife loves to do IT right? I mean, it's a huge thing and it's primarily to capture family memories like and I am sure that's probably a big part of your clients on. I want to ask a bit more about that. But capturing memories, capturing vacations, capturing big events, making those books, what kind of technology goes into making sure that that's gonna so that grandkids or what are looking at this stuff years and years and years down the line and it's solving to look, you know the same as IT does today?

Yeah, I would say there's a couple of category. So of course, I just mentioned the print piece itself, right, using papers that are acid free and lignin free. You ever look at those old photos that turn yellow, that's the acid in the paper, or lignin, which produces acid.

So you got, you gotta use papers that are our cable quality, otherwise they degree much faster. That's yeah principal. One is, is the paper the right quality? Is the binding the right quality? You know, we're using all of our materials are designed to last hundred blazy years as kind of the standard.

And the higher and products are aiming more towards the two hundred of years for digital these days, right? When I first into the industry, I won't like print your photos that will be gone digital, not trustworthy and share if you're putting IT on the hard drive in the closet. Yeah that's tricity.

I feel personally attacked. Well, that's pretty cool because so the idea like because .

you're storing all that stuff, I mean a good point because if a hard drive fails in those digital photos are gone. That's a big worry for a lot of hotoke pers. Um the same thing with a book, right? If you build a book and and you've done that work and you ve put that in there and then let's say there's a fire or flood and that stuff gets lost. So IT is that you can basically recover that at any time with mixed x.

You ve got IT .

there for yeah.

that's pretty cool. I did not know that. Yes, that's pretty like your intention is to hold on less unless I go in and physically delete all that data off my account. Yes, your intention is to hold on. Do IT for as long as your company .

you got IT is there for you to order again, for friends and family order again, for your kids to order again. It's there. And that's principle for us, right? Is the digital these days is digital photo search quantic google APP l if you put your photos there, as long as you keep paying the description.

it's going to be that right? So here's anything then. I mean, we talked about this briefly like I don't make phobics I love, obviously I enjoy that. I appreciate every time, see stuff. But who would you say is the main client tell making books or or is there a variety that maybe people don't expect?

Yeah, well, there's the obvious. The core market has always been mom, right? And if you think about our own, my own mom, right, he was the family photo keepers. She's the one who made all the photos, and at least for the first couple kids.

So that's still the case today, right? Because moms have an interest in bringing the family together and in creating these memories that live on and tell you who you are and why you matter in this world and that you're love. That's still a huge thing, right? That's still a huge thing.

But I think what's what's happened as photo books have gotten easier to a storytelling has gotten easier to do is you see a lot more people coming into the market and a lot more use cases. IT used to be right earlier markets like weddings, yes, babies maybe for everything else. There's my random photo role and yeah whatever.

Again, that's changing. That's changing now that technologies is getting easier and that's changing with some of the new things that we're launching. That's exactly what our new mix book movies product is designed around is today it's just for its just means your photo book, but tomorrow it'll be where's the home for all your stories that you didn't have print on?

Well, you transition pretty well there. So why don't you explain exactly what that is? We cover IT on petofi s when you launched to think a couple of weeks ago. But i'd be curious to hear you explain what mixed book movies is for and like what what problem is trying to solve?

yes. So one of the things a lot of people don't know, our company didn't start with the intention to be a photobooth and IT, was to create the future of storytelling with memories. The company's name is actually interactive memories.

So we know that we had this idea of, in the sense you put your goggles on, step into a memory. So mix book movies is, in a way, this kind of first four ray into what could digital story telling look like. Obviously, digital story telling is huge, right? Giant industries, instagram and tiktok and all the social media companies, at some level, that's where they had their beginning.

But storytelling that there to get likes and command storytelling to show off is a fundamentally different thing than what our customers are trying to do. They're trying to create stories that bring people together. So mix book movies is really this idea of what if you could create that kind of story that's authentic to who you are that then is trying to bring people together and create a story that lives on.

And it's not just, okay, here's a video and you put on an instagram, but it's something alive, it's something expressive. So know this is only version one right now. You can change the music.

You can change the feel. In the future, you're going to be able to do a lot more, as you can imagine or created. We're known for create flexibility on our platform, so you're going to see that.

But that's really what mixed book movies is about, is saying, okay, now I can make a photo book. What do I what else could I do? How do I add more to enhanced memory? How do I add video? How do I add music?

Do you have any time when to jump in? And what about you? Do you have any aspirations for how this would possibly work with?

Like A R V R um because you mention putting goggles on, you can literally do that now. Um so like like especially I got an apple vision pro on the mind because I I recently did a big story on that. So like that idea is that is that part of this in anyway?

And to add on that, like companies like apple, they're legally trying to go the memory making route with this. They're not just saying like oh having interactive experienced. They are saying like look at your birthday party photos in three days with spatial and like so yeah .

how much the one actually will build memories things now for you two like in the iphone and like one of the it's a crappy commercial, but apple has a crappy commercial right now about like creating like some sort of like video memory thing on your phone quickly with with its AI. So like all of these things, lots of questions. Sorry.

absolutely what the commercial is very that on point for us because though our version early version of this book movies is not as customizable, where were is in many ways exactly the same problem the photobooth happened when we entered, which is your story's not really there.

If A I tells the story, is that really you right? Are you really present? And that's the problem with that commercial is the daughters created these gifts that took a lot of intentionality and thought and all of a sudden apples promising, we will be the heart, we will be the intentionality. That's something about that just cheapen the loves are added mean to rent.

No commercial. Super awkward for another reason to why is the mother competing with the children? Did SHE forget her husband's own birthday? Like there's a lot of questions about that commercial that confused me. That whole series that they've been doing with A I actually a lot of them are like what they're very weird.

Well, IT reminds me one of my favor movies, her, if you guys saw her. But is that any idea where, like in the future, we're hiring a company to replace the sentimentality and the time and effort that we're supposed to be putting into these people that we love? Because there's a need to connect, right? There's a desire to want to connect. But yeah, do you have to do IT? Or is leaving up to somebody else appropriate even so.

like how are you different?

There was multiple different directions in there. So sorry, completely with the her sentiment, right? I think any new technologies can be disobeying or utopian.

The problem is humans are totally except table to being tricked by things like her. Mean, you look at how good ChatGPT is. I don't know what you are, the new chat P, T, voice mode will have.

I have full and conversation with IT. It's pretty amazing. Not a person. IT doesn't love me.

Yeah, right. Not yet.

Not yet. The question ultimately is in in a sense, were tool builders for helping humans to express love using A I but your intention has to be there, and I hope everyone does have that intention. How do we give them tools that don't replace that intention or pretend that intention is there when it's not? But empower, think about empower ing our Better angles of our nature.

So right now, our movie version is very much of a one point out. But where we're going, it's all about creativity. It's all about story telling. It's all about empowering what we would say, the good hard work, all right, expressing that love and care. Now we're going to try to make IT not so hard, but we're not going to replace IT were not going to take IT.

Yeah, it's good. I mean, people want convenience, right? They want IT to be easy. They want to be very, maybe not even easy, maybe intuitive is a Better work, right? Like you want your sort of feelings in your tensions to then naturally go out into this product. But we should talk about A I because AI is scary in a lot of ways right now, and especially in the professional photographer's market, in the journalist of market and social media, AI is bring up some very legitimate concerns about what needs to be real, what needs to be revealed to be AI.

How important is IT a to have that honesty in that truth? And and when we talk about memories, and you're very touched on IT, what is that like when IT comes to memory making, in your opinion? Because yeah, like everybody wants their skin to look really good and they want their memories to be really bright and flashing, and they want to look their best selves and they want to have the most impact ful sentimental experience when looking back at these books.

So how do you guys navigate that chAllenge? And how do you use A I, uh, in your actual product? I mean, how does the even impact mix books in general?

Yeah, A I these days is becoming a basic expectation for customers, right? If we didn't, all there would be so much we couldn't. So, you know, think about the commodity AI stuff around.

Just understanding a photo, who's in the photo? Where are they? Where are the emotions on the photo? How big is there are? smell? How do I? Okay, I have taken seventeen photos of the same scene, same subject, which is the one I should use, right? All those are your kind of basic expectations that the customers expecting that then you've got where you're actually doing things customers don't expect yet, although they will in a few years. Things like A I upscaling now I can get a photo that my friends sent me from WhatsApp put IT on mix book, and that prints fine.

right?

I play your mind. This year, we've pretty much got rid of all photo because you don't need photo warnings anymore. Yes, there are rare cases that you do yeah you don't know of one twenty eight by one twenty eight the of your photo even that we get very .

excited you thank you one day.

Uh so I think a is basic expectation. What we're not doing is things. And again, this kind of speaks back to the commercial idea.

We're not doing things that are in authentic. So you know give me the put that photo of me and brad pit and tuscon y that's totally made up. We're not doing great. We're not doing that because that's where you creating the uncanny value of storytelling.

And I think that's what A I, A I should be a tool to help empower the Better Angels of our nature to take those good intentions that we never somehow get to and make them possible, right? I think about that as that's what we're really trying to do. So so for us, we're not doing a lot of synthetic content for that reason. So we're taking authentic content.

IT sounds like you're sort of of the there's two camps right now in like major high tech, which is like samsung and apple on our side. Samsung, google on one side, an apple on the other on one side, samsung says there's no such thing as a real photo and google says put anything anywhere. There is no reality.

And then apple says the opposite. They want you to have an authentic memory. So you seem to be leaning more towards what apple is leaning on.

absolutely. And I think there's a place for creative storytelling, like put my kid, make a book of my kid is an astronaut. There's a place for that right, right, clear what that is and where IT becomes an Candy values when you know, even to my my personal opinion, okay, even things where you like removing people from photos and stuff is a little bit weird for me, is a little bit uncomfortable because that wasn't really there.

Like, imagine your kid, I think, wait, mom wasn't uncle, whoever there. There's just some weird things that come with at which I think, culturally, we have to rule with these problems. What do we think about what's true and real? I feel like that matters to humans.

I mean, my mom would take the scissors and just go through the photograph and cut people out, you know, I mean, like x girl, friends and stuff of mind should cut out yeah you know.

So it's like, where do you stand on that concept? Like do do you want to offer the tools so that people have the option? Or do you want them to do that on their phones first? And then of course, they just upload the photo is already done, know you guys don't have to worry about IT at that point.

To a good question, I think it's one that we are going to arrested with. Two things like that are gonna come commodity. And when they do, we're going to end up doing IT too, not going to be at the leading edge of those things, right? The lead, the leading edge of in on authenticity is .

not going to be right. But still trying to capture like natural memories that tRicky.

Yeah.

I ever kind of looping back to the whole printing thing 啊。 And you mentioned weddings, I think, for a while there and I don't know it's to the case. I have really been plugging into the wedding ce ince since code um but a lot of wedding photographers were doing and even portrait photographers would make their business model around not necessarily tons and tons of pictures but more they would take the pictures they took and do the printing work for you.

So like I know of one porter photographer who you'd come in for a session and you don't necessarily leave that session with the thought that are ginning get a digital copy of that picture. They would prepare what you're in, write your final intention would be and I feel like what what you're doing, Andrew, is kind of the opposite of that. Um you kind of want to put that power back into the consumer, that what the end users hands. So like with mix book, do you see yourself competing with some of these portrait and wedding photographers? Or are you thinking those wedding and portrait hot graphs can actually use mix book to make their process much more smooth?

Oh, it's the latter. I think we're definitely not trying to compete with photographers. And I think you can even know what we've seen where the iphone is.

Even Normal humans with an incredible camera do not compete with that, at least in these key high end use cases, right? And I think if you look at the top phs, most of them don't want to be in the business of printing or I mean, even of the business editing photos. Just a tore from, right?

yeah. So I think for us.

it's a partnership. And I also think when I buy when I get my photos done, i'm getting the digital copies because that's the part that I know I can make sure it's going to be in. And I use google and apple and drop box, right? I, an extreme. I.

your whole sky for a cloud. H, yeah.

exact exactly. You got have digital because the print isn't going to last forever IT almost a couple hundred years, but it's not going to ask for her. So and I mean, just recently, my grama passed away. And those photos from her childhood, those photos from her wedding, those are cherish memories now, yeah. And we created a place where those all live on, and we created books and we share around the family, and we have a digit spot for the all that we actually had to scan a bunch of the men, most of them more didn't.

Yeah, I was just going to say like there is going to be there was an intermediary step there because i'm certain there wasn't a ton of digital photos back when her grandmother was kidding married like that's me. I'm thinking like what is my my parents, their wedding album? I seriously doubt my mother still has her negatives. So that basically means once that photo almost gone, that's IT, it's gone forever. And that maybe as a kind of a scary thought without being able to scandal.

Yeah I mean, IT was really interesting to see that whole push. I mean, we're decades ago, but when scanner were really kind of popular and everybody was in this major rush to digitize their their analogue photography because yeah, he was finally, especially black and weight. Amazing because black weight is still surviving. But like you clearly see, I mean, you're Younger than I am. I think Candy, but you clearly see like I look at photos from the seventies, color photos and they look like garbage now like they've really degraded in a huge way um so yeah I think it's beautiful that people want to archive stuff and and with digital, do you think do you think there's a future for people wanting to have memories in an a strictly digital format? Or is there still something about the tactic experience of a book or a print that people are going appreciate in the future?

Yeah, they would like to say as long as we're not just brains living in the cloud, we're going to like physical things.

right? And I hope so are .

embodied minds, right, where you we're physical. So we values physical things. And I remember when we first started the company, we would go out and pitch venture capital firms.

They all set now prints to be dead in five years like there's no way newspapers are going away. Books are going away. Everything's going away and i'll be digital and would just be living in the cloud.

And I didn't. I just fundamental don't buy into that. I don't course newspapers going away in all that, that makes sense because it's more convenient on lot, but photos and memories are something tangible. I mean, it's IT sounds cheesy to say but when you touch when you open up a photo book of a level who passed away, you'll see people they will touch the person.

right?

Something about or something about a physical thing that you can touch and feel that makes IT real.

So whether venture capital is wrong, um like would you say yeah the physical media is either is IT growing, is IT stabilize? Like what is the status of photo books? Yeah in twenty twenty four. And like where is IT going? Because mean, you've seen you're about twenty years in like that's crazy.

yes. yeah. Well, they were obviously wrong based on the fact that the market exists and it's ten x bigger than IT was.

You're still in business exactly.

But as far as where does a go is a great question because you know, the market is kind of IT appears like a mature market growing to three percent year. It's growing with macro. And the question is what could change IT? A lot of folks and industry of betting on A I will lead to an explosion of print.

I tend to believe that I think what you have right now is people have taken so many photos, it's overwhelming, just too many right kind of about you guys, even for me, I want a photo book company, and I don't always put my vacation because it's just overwhelming like we tell you solve that problem. We don't know how big the market can be because it's just too difficult. Now google and apple, they are working on making IT easier to make sense or photos.

They're working on making photo organza easier. If you look at our APP, we create our own memories features, which looks through all your photos, finds your trips, finds birthdays, finds enterprise and just sources. All these ideas that you can print that makes IT a lot easier. And we've seen customers other APP printing a lot more.

Yeah, once you get rid of that, that it's it's kind of overwhelming to think, what do I do now you have all the pictures and you want the end product of that middle. Like I can tell you, my wife, I printed her all of our wedding pictures with the intent that he was going to make her own book that was in twenty seventeen and we don't have a book. So like it's the process of going through the pictures that was just too much.

So you're right, that should be when that's easier, should be much. I think he wants the book, that's the thing, desperately wants the final product is just getting there. It's too overwhelming.

Did I like i'm renovating my office right now to have a new space and we have no pictures on the walls and like we have to do this, have to go get pictures on the walls. And the reason why I haven't, to this point, honestly, is, is such a daunting task, right? So I been going crazy.

I spent straight up two full days workdays going through all my photos, right? Like every single one going through all the shots i've taken for the channels, i've gotten through two of my three youtube channels so far. I solve another one to do, trying to find pictures that I want to print to, you know, whether it's family photos or memories or or in a stuff that like you, my art photos, stuff that I really like that i've taken.

And I think i've got four pictures now chose and like to set after print. And and maybe like twenty that i'm gone to keep and look at. So regardless, it's been a very daunting task.

So I can absolutely can absolutely that and and I think that's a big thing to as people start to worry about losing memories in the digital because you have so many, you know, like I found, have I found eighty percent of the pictures that I wanted? If I found ninety percent, it's scary. So I can I can commiserate with that situation. It's anything to make that easier. Be great.

absolutely. And I think that's really the limit of this space today used to be you get your camra role process and you just don't have that many photos to print. I don't have any experience with that.

but think that you yes, I think the question .

is how do you make that easier? So we believe that the market is going to see substantial growth as you make things easier. And you ve seen that in market after market. And in fact, that's how we got the teeth growth we are to go in the market.

right, right? So now we've talked a lot about memories and and and I think most people are using this to document weddings, your vacations or family events and things like that. But what about more commercial or or maybe professional applications, like how much stuff you guys do with larger prints or with our books or gallery kinds stuff? Can you talk bit about that?

Yeah I think for us, outside of the core consumer space, we actually started as a year book company that many .

people know that interesting. Yeah OK as a year book .

guy in high school. Now i'm locked in.

You got so my golfer was into the year able thing in his high school, and I was hold school, so I didn't have much experience without market. Uh, uh, so we had this. The problem is you ve got two thousand kids and twenty people making the book.

And so most people's stories aren't really in there. Have you're on this point team and again, nothing nothing negative on the year book team. It's just that's a hard jobs .

and about overwhelming. You can't do IT. You can't tell everyone is stories. Some people straight up .

disappear IT is true and that's in fact, you look at your able companies today. They're like, okay, we ve got to .

get an index account of how many times they used to believe.

Crazy one for me, the answer, the thing that highlighted was the need for people to be able to tell their own story. So our idea was, let's create a new book where groups of kids can create their own your books. So whatever IT is, the sports team, a friend group, whoever, or they can add IT on as a supplement to the school's year books.

And of course, that's what's happened in the market. So that was the idea, really, that's what let us into photo books. But we've continued in the year booking space because that is still such a neat but still such a resonant feeling for people of man.

Couldn't I get IT? Couldn't I get a book that really is about my experience of high school? So that's been a thing for us as far.

And of course, we also work with a lot of photographers, with the secret weapon for a lot of photographers, secret? Not so secret, because we make their jobs that much easier. That's that's what we do. As far as gallery or art books, it's not a focus, but IT is something we do a lot of, again, because it's so creative that fits perfectly.

So I could do an art book with mix book and be happy with the quality, and like how how many I have that on, how many pages I can do. I like the cover. Can I make the cover any material like thickness or hardness that I want?

So cover, thickness, harness, know that is, that is something on our list that is definite, something our customers are into. But as far as pages, we're going to be the most of anybody in space for under pages or at on par with the most. As after that point, binding starts to get questionable. You can do IT, but IT starts to .

get four hundreds a lot.

right? I mean, have you had people sort of like use max book as like a self publishing kind of thing, like they want to make their own books about a hobby or interest or or job? Yes, we do.

And I know there's other companies in the space that focus on that particularly. So we don't make IT easy to like mark up your book and selling in a store. So for that reason, we do get IT, but those more like people printing a bunch and selling IT to friends and family, right? We do on occasion, we've got so where will do a custom deal, right? You go back and get a print run, run for that person if they're really going to sell a lot, but it's detection for us.

So the Oscar cris got some yes.

I see wall and that seemed like, are there any products that mix books does where you're like? This is an awesome product, but a kind of flies under the radar and more people need to know about IT well.

applies them to the rear. I mean, there's some of the really cool home decor products, right? Like you said, photogen ization is the chAllenge. And so a lot of times you end up with photos on the wall. There are twelve years old and you're like in my living room for a while, we had two out of three kids on there and he plays like that when do like to be in the do you not like .

is like a yeah actually didn't know that you .

guys did not just book because the word book is in your in your .

brand so you .

do actual like wolf ance .

yes you're right. So I economic block is just a beautiful product, so cool, so simple, metal prints beautiful. I think the newest thing for us that is probably still little under the rate hours max book movies, right? The fact that you can actually create a movie from your photo book in one in one click instantly and then customize IT, that is a pretty cool thing. And I think this Christmas are expecting a lot of people who are procris sinatra like me will get there. And if they couldn't get the book in time, they've got a mixed ook movie they can show .

and the look um well, to close out here, Andrew, talk to me as the actual person that I am. I have never made a photo book and I it's very difficult for me to even move to the process of getting something printed convinced me why I should well, well.

let's see. What's the right way to go about this IT kind of depends. Do you have of kids? no.

But I like my pictures and I like my friends. I like my family. I like travel. So I take a lots of doors and I like my dog. Yeah like but mostly I think I would want to remember going places and doing things with people .

that are in my family yeah by the way, dogs are a good entry point. A lot of people love to make fit their pets. I think for me, the thing is of the thing about photo books, that special is your stories there.

So you've ve got the wall of photos you can scroll, whether you is a google or apple or whoever you are using. But if you want something that tells a story of photo books, going to do that the best. So in fact, one of our famous early ones was actually of a dog.

IT was rocky, the boxer, and at the very end, sadly, the dog passes away. But IT was a very redemptive story. That was all these different ways the dog brought their family together.

And if I look at photos of travel books, it's a way of cap t. What's interesting in the travel book is not just the photos and how beautiful they are. Where was the drama? Was there a time that you almost missed the flight? Was there the time that you ve got a little too close to the end?

What was the thing that was interesting and that the time that shows up in a book, and in in fact, half of the benefit of making a book is not the physical book, the process of making IT stiers up those memories again. Yeah, we find, you know, early on in the company, one thing that shocked me, our customers is all that. We want more creativity.

We want to be more fun. And so we did that. And then customers, I would get on the phone and I still get on the cut phone with customers every week and they would say, hey, i'm addicted to mix book.

Do you have like mix bookers, anonymous is so fun and he is a reminisces. So I would say it's not just about the book. When you look at the book and say, oh, that's cool, I want that that's part of IT, but the other half people don't realize is making IT is actually so deeply satisfied yeah .

that super point IT. Like and I think for I like just said, like I went through all my folders and going through the stuff, it's not fun, right? IT feels like a chore and i'm searching and i'm parental.

I did. I forget something, bloom a blood. But when my wife makes these photo box and she's building like a vacation that we all went on the family journal, family were very close. We go on a lot of vacation and they always make books.

She's having like such a great time and deeply invested emotionally into making IT and creating IT and doing the lao like it's it's not a sure IT seems like she's having a really not just a fun time but actually, like you said, like a very pointed, very sort of emotional field kind of experience. He is really enjoying that experience. And then of course, we'll get to benefit from seeing that afterwards.

So yeah, I think it's a beautiful product and very cool. And you thank you so much for for coming on because I think it's you know think all photobooth. It's not something that we do is not something they were interested, but it's an aspect hotoke phy that everybody benefits from. And IT was fascinating to hear about the product.

Thank you. Great beauty.

and Andrew appreciated.

Have a good one. All right, you do.

Thanks so much.

So thanks again, Andrew, for joining us. That was a more enlightening conversation than I thought I was about to. So what do you think, Chris?

Yeah, I mean, I think I was interesting dynamic that it's photobooth. I feel as something that a lot of us leave to other people, right? Or I should say at least a lot of guys and that's too bad. Like, let's be honest, right? I mean, like I know my wife loves to do, I know Jordan wife loves to do, and I haven't made a photo book in my entire life like like that.

And and even actually when my wife heard about the podcast and then we were talking to this guys like, oh, mix books yeah yeah like I like mix books um maybe i'll do something with them like it's it's an interesting it's interesting industry and it's grown so huge and yet I value IT because I get to enjoy those books and they are fantastic memories so yes, need to see how it's changing words growing, what the industry is like yeah I I don't know, maybe i'll build one. Maybe i'll build one. A pet pixel podcast mixed book okay yeah sure.

Ah Chris, what have you ever up to? It's not obvious at all.

Yeah so yeah got the whole basement and you know just people in here building and painting and fixing and trying to get this space ready. It's been a lot of work and put up this wood panel that took me like a tire day, shelving everything. But it's been fun.

It's fun. It's like nice to sort of build your nest and get a space that you can work with. And this isn't just giving me the one before I was IT was straight up like just two two um sheet of dry wall in a corner that was my bodgers space, right?

So this is actually a room and i'm not it's not for podcasting. I am i'm using this as my workplace, my editing place. So it's nice to have an actual office to work out of. Finally, not a dusty spider field basement.

I can say that I do also enjoy having a space to go. Obviously, I like mine, and i've been customizing IT significantly since we moved in here a couple years ago. So me .

again.

that's all you know what that's what i'm saying. If I I get to stove down here shall definitely .

stove in the bathroom and shoes like jack where .

what yeah whatever happened. So I that's that's really been IT so far. I what I dedicated the last weekend to we had a three day weekend because petofi c subber veins day. I basically just tried to catch up on playing video games that I have not actually played very many, because I focus on building my gunda models that all of my free time was going there. So I SAT down right here on my button, played video games for most of the of that weekend.

I'm also doing some television testing, which is why this is new and in here right now and yeah that's that's basically yet um let's get on to never read the comments which what is there will yes, I will say that correctly. Let's get on to never read the comments where we have just won and is actually a speak pipe from john what's listen to that? Hey guys, I recently listened to the verge cast and they had the guys from hey light on IT, and they had a long discussion about photography.

And the pedestal website was commonly mentioned, commonly mentioned with a mixture of fear and read specifically because of the comments section. They in fact, had to walk back their definition of pro due to the grief that they would get on on this website. Um you guys have a section called never read the comments in which you specifically read the comments.

So obviously, there are some ambivalence and clearly strong feelings around this topic. But on the other hand, feedback is important, right? I mean even mean feedback.

So what matters to you guys? What what comments have particularly stood out to you? I would love to hear your come about .

the comments.

boy. So the decision about Peter pixel comment section um is not a new one. I had no idea we were discussed on the verge cast and that yeah that's what we do have a good relationship with hail light. I know the like the developers over there and we talked them pretty regularly but yeah so the photographic comment section specifically can be a tox success pool. Um when I first got two Peter pixel IT was a major point of discussion as with with me in the publisher Michael.

Like what do we do? Should we do delete the comment section entirely? Just get rid of IT because IT it's just a bare to manage uh do we block IT behind multiple things? You have to try real hard to get there. Ah we eventually settled on a pretty strong auto moderator that then we go in and check things to make sure that they're okay. And that's because some people are highly opinionated and will just attack either the writer, the topic, the company or other people in the comments section and it's just not okay.

Yeah how where do I even start? Hopefully you can see in my eyes if you're watching on youtube the trauma um just the inherent behind my islands and and IT is like I can be trained. Tic, so I mean, where do I start like we've been in the business for a long time and and comments and feedback, it's it's a huge gaming.

So getting feedback from people even mean feedback that's constructive. I'm not going to rely and say that I love IT or or enjoy reading IT, but IT is valuable, absolutely. And i'm pretty stubbing and even give enough time even I can be like, okay, well, maybe I should consider that again.

So there is some good feed back. Sometimes you just straight up incorrect about a factor, something like that, and people always point that out and and that I think a positive thing, just because the more information that gets out there, the tacker, the Better. sure.

So no problem there. Of course, though there are comments that are difficult to read. Sometimes the straight out rude, I mean, some people are just purposely being rude.

That sucks, you know and that that can be heard for you have to develop a thick skin over time. There's a lot of comments set, just not even photo related. There's just personal attack on your weight or your looks or your voice or your attitude or whatever.

And so that of course you always be difficult to um and that kind of stuff you you have to build the uh skin towards IT, but that doesn't mean doesn't like get to you IT doesn't to you and others. You for me though personally like the comments. Um I would say there's a lot more positive comments than negative comments and you have to really try to appreciate that because it's very the bad one.

Stick with you. They stay with you a long time. There are the ones that you think about that night in bed, right, or or that you share with your editor in your partner like I like this drive me crazy.

Why would they say that um but really the good comment out away those and so I try to make more like try to appreciate those more because that is very important. We love that. We have very loyal viewers who have watches for fifteen years in some cases, and we really appreciate that. And if you don't like I work anymore and you want to head out, I get IT and that's fine. I have no problem that kind of stuff being corrected um sometimes when you know the personal attacks on your art, that's that's fine but IT hurts like, but it's fine.

I get IT like you can't make everybody happy all the time and what I like to do or shoot doesn't always be what other people like to sue um and so I get that honestly the comments to drive me the crazy st the pronunciation ones that you really get to be they will they get me so mad um you know like, ah you're not pronouncing IT right you're you got to say this way that we like honestly the whole world I mean I get IT i'm not like man I just i'm not a big like grammar please kind of person other than the word of use literal I don't like that being misused, but that's about IT. Otherwise it's like, you know, the world speaks different ways. We got different dialogue, different accents.

And I think that's beautiful. And I think it's wonderful that we can all come together. And just like do photographer gether and not have to like jump on each other about how we pronounced or mispronounce something, I don't think IT shows a gross and and horrifying lack of respect for that country and now those people and the entire nation and everything that the company stands for, a game, a break. You know, it's wow.

This clearly has been in there because it's so a name.

It's a thing are you about but again, I know people are going to write comments right now like all there, you believe abby, your misprinted things and non purpose and you have no, no, you're not you're not sad about IT or we're grateful. I there are a lot of things where the feedback is very positive. So that's why we keep reading the comments. That was kind of really point in having this message here from john because you have to take deal with the bad and there are some important things in there and there's lot of disgusting crap in their two and that's that's just the internet people.

What I will say is um I put two notes in here, my favorite and my favorite I mean like not favorite is when I I or anyone on the site reports an issue or a bug or a problem with a product and then I say here's the issue and you know we couldn't finish her whatever we're moving on and then i'm told that I must be doing something wrong like the one that sticks out in my mind is the biggest one of these was I was doing an S S D.

Test a while ago and and I was doing IT on my macbook as the because I had the most h high tech connection point. There was a thunderous point, so I could use that there. And someone insisted that the reason my speed wasn't high enough is that I must be using the White charging table, the U.

S, B, C. Charging table that ships with the macbook to test the speeds. And not at all the one that comes with the SSD like i'm some sort of fool like I would never have thought.

Of course I didn't do that, but the idea that IT came into their mind that that's what that's gotta IT. He he's got to be stupid. That's the problem like that to me. ridiculous.

Another one that is very common that happens still to the state is if we do a report negative, positive and we get called a shell for that brand or the brand that's like the Better brand, is we are talking about something negative. There were a shill first. The other company that would be benefiting from that IT doesn't matter if we've done coverage good or bad on those companies before doesn't matter.

They don't even remember that we did that. They pretend that we have an agenda that we're trying to push. And therefore, all of this negative coverage is orchestrated by this like this dark cobo of us writers down there trying to do IT is insane to me that we just can't report the news. We just report stories that's IT. There is no dark agenda.

no. I mean, obviously, obviously, it's a business and we take sponsorship, we take money and had revenue. Absolutely, we do and we do our ad reads like like we have on our podcast right now and and that's absolutely an important part of our business. But I don't know.

It's just maybe it's it's the way that we started at working at a retail location, Jordan, I and and very early on making a decision that even though we work for retail, we're going to be honest about the products even if you know distributions aren't very happy with that, which they often weren't like you guys sell these products, where are you saying, right? We kind of just that's just kind of how we are um and and that's how we always stuck with IT. So even through deep review and stuff, and I know some people don't believe that or whatever and there's no change in your minds um but yeah, it's just not how we we kindly look at what the facts are and we share what our opinions are.

That's what we've always done. It's not always going to be you. I might like a camera handling it's because I like the camera handling you. SONY has given .

me multiple you, how there you has handling .

SONY has given me multiple land yards in my lifetime. And I think even like a strap and maybe a bag, a condo, pretty cool. So that was you know but it's still not enough to sway me to say that their handling is good, Better.

It's good, bad beyond what my actual opinion is. So I don't you know like I don't know some of the name takes can and i've gave me a really sweet and we certainly do appreciate the trips like the press strips. That's a big one.

The presti PS are big one. IT is a unique opportunity. IT is a lot of money on their part, but it's their marketing budget and and they are getting their views. We're getting an opportunity to shoot an environment that's different.

And I still stick by the fact that whether people believe or not, I don't let its way what my opinions are on the camera, what I like about IT or don't like about IT. I really just try to take a product. I'm looking at so many products all the time.

So hope you know this is honestly how I feel. I'm looking products all the time. A lot of IT. I have to go by what my god instinct is about IT right off the bat. And then as I dealt deeper into the technology, if I think that's useful or not, and that's it's always just my opinion.

take a yeah, that's okay. But I understand .

why people is captial. I have no problem with that. I have no problem with those comments personally.

The brand is and I think is kind of ridiculous areas and and people. I feel bad for the other commenters because that's where the war starts. But anyways, comments are great.

Let's never read them again. Well, what else say is with Jordan being out this week and the fact is podcasts rn, long as the new section took so long, you going to do most of the next today. What I will say is, uh, I got three speak pipe messages from mark, my ic musical and land.

All three of them were like, that person asked for an APP that shows the frame of view, and I have the answer for them. They were very insistent. This is the most responsive ever scene to someone responding to a texted question.

So these are the ones that they came in with. In addition to the ones we mentioned, make sure to check out photo pills like me, the mark two artists view finder and view finder preview. Those are the ones that they say are good that you've tested in news.

Some of them are paid, some of them are not. Uh, good luck. I can't remember who asked that question, but you're probably listening. So they ago, if you didn't know what you wanted out of our answers, the audience has spoken. There is many more.

That's the beautiful thing about the comments section. That's a great example, right there is like just people helping each other around and come of suggestions. I mean.

I always love seeing that stuff. All right. Well, end IT with the feel good story of the week we need to feel is that yeah after that right after that comments question uh, if you all recall, outdoor photographer was a shut down last year and IT was not in a way that was good.

IT was corrupt and unfortunate. We've done multiple reporting on that. Whole situation is all the big mess. Well, the spiritual successor to outdoor photographers called wild eye IT is run by the former editor in chief of outdoor photographer, or at least high up editor. Then havoc, now he had achieved of a wild eye.

And he is a pushing through a new magazine called while I that you can check out for free. It's a it's digital version. They do want to do a print version eventually, but they are not going to go back to like shelves like at the airport or and you know drugs store anything like that.

They're going to do high and specialty printing to make these magazines like really, really nice ah they wanted to approach doing camera gazin es differently. A similar, I think, to the idea of that resource magazine originally had, but they're going even harder into IT. I really think that the goal they have here is great. I want to point everyone I possibly can towards stand and, uh, wild i'm magazine because if you care about photography, like good pictures and like good photo stories, I think this is an excEllent place to get very cool.

Good name too, for like a wildlife based kind of hotoke phy website and then is a great guy. So that's fantastic that there are starting new project. I check IT out support IT.

I will end this with a quote from them, he says, when we took this pause to reevaluate what we're going to do and start a new publication, IT allowed me and other folks to resell what the landscape for magazines is like. And as much as I love out photographer and I loved working for them, we were able to think about a higher point of view as then let's think that a little bit differently. Why not? We're not acquiring any debt.

We can try a few things. We can experiment. And we kind of took IT from there and everyone brought their different ideas into result in this new brand.

So congratulations to and good luck. Anyone is interested can check the link in the description below and a with that, we are gonna call IT. We are off next week, back we, after he will be back and we will be doing our annual or a sumi annual grading every camera makers performance.

And we are gone to do that and we return. I think we're going to be joined by gordon again or not. Gordon.

I hope you .

so that's the plan. I'll see you on november twenty seven. Thanks, everyone.

Thank you. Good bye.