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From relay, this is upgrade absolute five hundred and thirty seven in november eleven, twenty twenty four. Today the show is brought to you, but I delete me, anne, pizza vans, vitally and smarter world. My name is mike ley, and I have the pleasure is always being joined by Jason. Now.

hi Jason. Hi my curly. Isn't IT nice that we say the date of our recording at the top of the show? I like IT like this.

I think is a nice, nice addition.

a nice addition. Don't want to do IT. I don't understand .

that you know we had this is strange I have no talk question for you comes from john and john wants to know Jason, have you ever or do you ever write fiction in any form would you like to and if so, what kind .

um I have I wrote lot of short stories in high school and college. Uh, I wrote three novels for a national novel writing month there in the more than on the drawer.

they're in a folder in my drop box.

It's like a drawer. And what i'd like to do is, is revised one of those. But what I found is that when you go out on your own devoting time, you've got the time to spend. But devoting the time to a project that will probably never amount to anything and not generate any money for your family is really difficult for me to do.

Unless you really, really want to, right? Like I think maybe, maybe you don't really, really want to.

Even then though, like when I was I D G, I would come home and november and I would just like go question myself. And right? Like, yeah, but now it's sort of like, I don't know.

I expand my my writing energy on a project that will probably not like there's always another post I could do and this is something I struggle. There's always py cast. I could prt for or post.

I could write for six collars or there's there's a backlog of things, six colors. I think one, i'm going to a push back like this last two months, right really from August, where the betas are are getting close to wrapping up through the iphone announcements and the O S. releases.

And then we got had our mac releases. This is the busiest time of the year and and like there's never a moment, even though I ve had things on my calendar and you should right work on the book right now that I just haven't done IT because I I I feel irresponsible doing IT. Um that said, you know i'm hoping that I will actually get back to that and and do at least a draft that i'm happier with.

Um but and i've given myself a little bit of deadline for that. But um but the short version is yes and in what what form like I said, I I wrote short stories when I was in high school college. I've written three novels because I start doing that in a amo and and you know there are just wise that kind of all over the place.

So if I sort of fanta beyond adults a techno thrillers, there's all sorts of different stuff but um yeah so you know that maybe someday I will follow in the footsteps of them more and and we can have a book publish but you I don't know I wouldn't bet on IT only because it's it's difficult it's become very difficult for me to prioritize that. And I really admire that about dan like dan has prioritized IT like then that's one of dance jobs is writing novels. And it's a little easier when you've got a contract because there's at least a light at the end of the tunnel or mine like there maybe no light of the end of tunnel at all. But I, I, I, I hope to get back there sometime.

I think IT can be hard when you have like when you when you know like the things that we do, they very closely a line we have, the things that we like to do. And so then there can be times where there's something you want to do, but it's close enough, the thing that you kind of need to do for your job. And then IT becomes difficult to separate the two and prioritize one over .

the other right? If you work on day yeah I think it's in some ways going home and writing a novel is an outlet because it's not a thing you do all day. And that is something that I struggle when I was writing um those nana o novels at idg was if it's a day where i'm like writing all day, i've got ten no more words left in the evening, right IT would have to be a very different kind of day.

And I think it's telling that was also during a period where I was less involved in the authorial stuff and more involved management, and that therefore I was using IT more as an outlet where now again, I sit down to the keyboard and I think, well, I could, you know, rewrite chapter nine or I could write my review of the mac mini that's doing two days, right? Like IT is up being what? What are you going to choose? And the answer is usually pretty obvious. So that's a struggle.

If you would like to send in a snow talk of your own to help us open a future pilot of the show, just got a upgrade feed back dot com and you can send you OS. And thank you to john for doing so. Jason is upgrade this time.

IT is the start of the beginning of the upgrade.

This process sure is so very excited with hit that time here.

The other time for you to help .

us so go to upgrade is dot vote, and you can cost your ballot the upgrade on ballot for your favorite things of the year to be put into the upgrade. So the upgrade, this is a and a watch show that we do at the end of every year. And we have a bunch of categories.

We have been doing IT for ten years. And you can you can go at any point and see our previous winners of all of our categories of our great 点 com。 This is like apps and media and technology and stories is all stuff that we talk about on this show.

But min Jason will make the ultima award winnings the winners. We will cost our votes for the winners and decide the winner. Gory, but we sometimes struck in certain categories or we need like a typical.

And so we ask for the upgradient ts to vote so you can cause your vote over upgrade. He's dog vote. It's a google form you can fill in in.

You can fill in as much of IT as you like and submit IT and IT will help us the end of the year. So voting will be open to december of thirteen s and the element annual upgrades will be broadcasting life on december thirty. I'm very excited.

This is a great way for us to also be pointed to things that we may be missed that we need to pay attention to. So I would say very much think of this as IT can be your personal upgrade ties list. IT can also be your nominations for things for us to consider, and that is very helpful to us.

And sometimes we use IT as a type recker or will throw something to the upgrade ents. But IT most useful, I would say, as a way for us to, at least for me to have to be a little bit of safety network. I will see an APP and i'll say, what is that APP and I will go investigated. And that can be really helpful too. So definitely we upgrade stuff.

We appreciate your help. I upgrade is not vote. You can make your ominous until december thirteenth, where they would then be closed and tabulated via a very technical and complicated process to work out what the upgradient s voted for.

And it's just always fun to because the states and says sometimes the stuff like podcast and movies and T V. That I really think of, really know about, especially in the books category because I ain't read nothing. So for me to you.

it's nice to hear with the yes. And then there will be our um just a very exciting, not that a scheduling thing. Uh, we're going to do our holiday special on the twenty thirty of december and we're going na do our update show on the fifth of december. The third will be willing be alive on the third tune and that one will be life for holiday special will be a prerecorded but um yeah anyway, so we will be we're not letting those monday slide on. We're going to be on publishing 瑞丽。

Have a couple of one ms to follow up this one. I saw this statesman, this is purely for you. So that one point four of matter is available now to be implemented. IT includes support for solar power, home batteries and heat pumps, which I thought maybe you could be good for you in the future.

maybe so this would in the future. okay. So here my thoughts first is this will be good for future products that are made that are able to the matter standard if those products are made.

My question is, do I think the products that they were installed in my house already will be given firm where updates to support IT matter? My guess is no. But you never know um you never know.

I sort of feel like a lot of these you know home heating systems in all of that once they're out the door, there's basically nothing that gets changed on them. But um I believe my thermos dat supports alexa and google but not apple home, which just like as the home bridge plug ghan that supports IT. But it's one of those things where if they did an update, might they just do IT to support matter and that gets them everything?

Maybe, but I I don't know. I buy IT, but anyway, it's good for future devices. And then the other thought I had is having support for these items in the home APP means that an act like home bridge can support IT more directly. That's what I .

was thinking for you.

Yeah, having used some of this. Now they're like like the solar power. Here's a good example, like how much power is coming in from the solar panels right at the moment. I believe that implemented as a light with a dimmer. So you have a fake light in home bridge, you have a fake light that is at forty percent and that means it's at forty percent of power in the solar system, right? And uh and a battery y is somewhat in the sources of me I know like space.

It's so here is the thing like if that's to me that's the thing that makes me more to optimistic is that IT might mean that the home map understands other kinds of devices so that we don't have this thing that happens a lot in home bridge. Um and I assume in other apps that do similar things where IT has a kind of. It's amazing that I computed in your in your home map at all but IT puts IT in as something weird because it's sort of like, well, all this can really be as a fan.

So it's a fan, it's like, but it's not a fan at all. Why is IT a fan? Is like, well, you can be a light, but it's not a idea. Like, well, look, all I know about this fans and light.

So that's my that's my real hope is that at some point I will be able to use some sort of software that will bridge into the home APP that will accurately reflect what this stuff is. Now would be great. But um until that day, you know I it's great. This has been one of the chAllenges with with the the home map and and matter and home kit and everything is that there are a lot of sometimes they're slow to add device categories that are smart.

Yeah this like this probably won't find this way into IOS, maybe until nineteen, right? Like but that is similar to m oji. They approve the M O G standard. And then IT has to be implemented by suffering, if like the the, the device manufacturers.

So I could find its way into a point update eighteen or you wait to but I thought at least even as as you were saying, even if they don't, even if your stuff doesn't work, if you can get IT on the home bridge, at least the home map will have a Better interface for some of these uh integrations. And also as all with this, the thing that seems to be continually worked on the underlining technology, they're trying to make Better rebow reliable, and they're been doing this since the original, original matter. So we're still on the right path.

Yeah, I think it's I think it's good.

Well, the current shipping beta of visionary two point to include support for the ultra wide mac virtual display. Now to do this you have to be running .

fifteen point two.

So i'm not so I haven't tried this out, but I believe you have.

I I did I tried this out with an m four macbook pro, which I can admit that I possessed now. Ick, ah and my vision pro and IT was pretty great although I did I didn't notice one cork.

I'll get the cork at first which is you know how it's got that amazing new feature and vision alist to where uh you can see the keyboard yeah but he punches through the keyboard from from your your background yeah so you can see IT even if you dial up you know Joshua tree all the way, you can still see your keyboard. IT doesn't work if you're not looking at IT. IT needs to be seen while you dial in your environment.

Otherwise, if IT later if IT you look down at IT IT doesn't recognize IT as a keyboard IT doesn't bother. So I had that, mom, where am I? Where is my keyboard? And the answers you got .

to a look at the keyboard. Why a dialog? I still want them to do what um the quest can do, what you can in horizon at least like in horizon working ing thing you could to draw a part of your desk that breaks or always so so could you be any keyboard, any mouse and like they should be able to hold that in position.

So I going to put IT everyone. So for me, like I could draw out this is my keyboard, my mouse and my nopa like just this part of my desk. And then I can do whatever I want.

I still want them to do that, and I hope that they will at some point. Um but the wide screen, yes, does that look good? Does this feel like a gimigliano? You think .

that looks good? I M IT looks good. IT is so IT feels like the whole thing is a little bit I mean, I I can't tell for sure, but IT feels like it's a little clear than I was before. Like they've improved the feature fundamentally.

I've seen people saying that online to like and I don't know if this is a safari snapper a thing or not.

Yeah exact exactly. I can. I almost said I feel snapp er it's one of those things I can tell I can tell but um the thing that that um so floating over the the mac display share is a little icon showing you what mac is from.

And if you if you um tap on that or whatever the right verb is for that vision pro, you select that you get a choice of standard wide mult wide and i'd say so so it's interesting you have to choose the mode because it's basically refreshing the size of the virtual display. The ultrawise is too wide for me, but anybody like casey less, who uses three monitors, I mean that who is four, the wide feels like it's more like, if not two monitors than, you know, more than one and IT can fill your field of you. And what I like about IT is it's the idea that you can pop stuff.

okay? One of the things I really like about the visions of s interface in general is that I can like taking APP that i'm not really using so much and I just kind of put IT to the side. And it's very glencore, and I don't do that.

I have one monitor at my describe. I don't do that in my regular mac life, but I do like that the vision probe idea that I just got a visionary APP. It's playing music, whatever.

And it's kind of over there. It's over on the right side. What this in wide and ultra wide mode, what he does is IT absolutely lets you do that with your mac workspace.

So then you end up having this workspace where you've got a big central part where you can do your work, but you can take that mac APP that you don't want to look at right now and put IT over there and then you're looking to the right. And it's very i'm sure this is why people use mutimer monitors. One of the problems I have with multiple monitors is that they extend too far out and you have to fiddle around with aligning them and all of that.

And that's the beauty of this, is it's a single display. And the wider he gets, the more a curve kind of is introduced. So that is kind of equal distant from you all around you. I think it's good. I know that friend of the show, mark german basically said this is what he was waiting for and this makes the vision pro far more usable um and I think that there and that gives you a reason for him to use IT is uses as a virtual mac display I need to spend more time with IT, but I am also optimistic about IT IT makes me a little more excited about using using the vision pro as a really good mac display in a way that maybe I the old version didn't excite me as much. So I am optimistic IT looks pretty good and I think especially for people who are multing to splay, people who don't, they are like, yeah, okay, but i've already got a macbook pro that i'm traveling with and it's got one screen and what I really need is I to I want to replicate my two or three screen experience at at my office and I can't do that. Yes, that this is going to be a winner for those people.

I assume that the mac sees IT as an ultra wide display, right? Like to the make your action so like yeah you know stuff ff around on that display. And when you go back to your market, it's were going to be weird.

right? Like it's just pushes IT all you back into the whatever the new spaces it's screen sharing, right? So it's it's taking out the window and making IT really wide the display. And then as any time you change display resolution, if you've got stuff out on the edges, if you if you go to um for more space to a bigger IT does the same thing right on on the same monitor IT showed everything toward the center because I obviously can't live at at the margins anymore.

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yeah ah according .

to mock government in a bloomberg apple start is expLoring a smart glasses project doubt project atlas. This is only got enough the ground last week and is currently at the stage of gathering feedback and ideas from apple employees. A quote from mock government use letter when apple is considering whether to enter a new category, often hosts secret focus groups to understand what people like about existing products.

The more i've settled on this report we talked about, about connected, it's been about a week now since this report came out. The more I kind of feel like i'm not sure what I think about this. Like what like they're just start what is this project? They're just like just starting and how long is that until there's a project? Know what I think?

So I think one of the chAllenges here is we IT could be one of two things I could be that apple is completely written entire category off. And finally, they have said, O, G, I guess there is something here. Maybe we should talk to people about what they get out of this thing because in fact, you can imagine, if you imagine the internal politics, it's like whoever in charge of wearables and stuff looks at this and is like, this is stupid.

We're not going to do something like that. Why would we bother? We have airpower, ds, they're Better, whatever. And then there's a little bit of momentum.

And somebody somewhere with more authority is like, why are you guys not working on this? Uh and and IT is possible that the person who poop this before is like, all right, I guess we should talk to people who would like this thing and figure out why they like IT and IT might even be like we need to prove why this is a thing that people care about because obviously our people thought that IT was done. But obviously somebody cares about IT.

So it's possible that this is a somewhat functional response to a somewhat dis functional situation where somebody and i've seen this happen, right? You've seen this happen to where somebody in a position of authority doesn't get IT. And no matter what you do, they just don't get IT. And you know you're right, but they you just can't make them see IT, and that's a possibility here.

And if so, it's not great because that means that apple is behind on something that honestly, with the money and the resources apple has, apple should be investigating all sorts of different shapes and sizes and product types for things that are wearables, including something like this is also possible that there was a uh, a domain issue where, uh, because they are glasses, I I mean, we see this when people discuss this to you start talking about the meta ray bands and everybody starts talking about the vision pro. And it's like those products other than that they're on your face are completely not alike. Maybe they will be someday, but they are entirely different classes of product today.

The metal ray bands and the vision pro, the other bands and the metal quest three, right? Like they are not the same at all. They are not even remotely the same.

But it's possible that there is a turf somewhere where the vision pro, people I like we have got all glasses belongs to us and there's somebody over doing airports is like, but we just want to make airpower ds in glasses. M, I like, nope, can't do IT not allowed. So that's a possibility.

Also would be a little bit disturbing, right? Because that's a disfunction inside apple that made them fail to do this. However, I will also give the optimistic read here, which is mark germen only has one view here into this product and he is he is referred to this focus group.

And I would say i'm not entirely convinced that the focus group is step one. What would encourage me is if apple does have people doing whereabouts N D who've come up with all sorts of things that are like the meta bands and it's never really gone anywhere because I haven't really cracked IT. What's apples take on IT? Why would people like IT and like, yeah, we could put their podds in glasses, but why and how would that work? And you know, I would say last weeks connected little bit of follow out here.

I think that reca especially did a very good job of kind of elaborating what an apple version of the metal bands would be like. And the answer is, could be really good because apple has some huge advantages there, like this point that if you take a photo with the meta bans, you have to, like, go to their APP and then exported to the camera roll and are the photo library. And like, imagine if IT was siri and the photos library and apple intelligence and airports and all integrated like every other apple wearable, that would be pretty good, right? So so my hope is that this is not step one.

My hope is that they've been trying stuff out. But before they before they locked down exactly what the product is, there was a feeling like they needed to talk to people because they were concerned that they didn't get IT. They didn't get what exactly makes this product interesting. So there is if you want a positive read, a potential optimistic read, that's IT. But I agree with you like I am concerned that whatever the reason is, and I just listed a few of them that apple, you know that whether was a vision pro kind of turf war, or whether there was a lack of imagination from people who are on the wearable ables team or people in positions of authority on the wearables, that that that they miss the boat on this.

And that the concerning thing is, when you get a report this as well, we just got a bunch of employees together and we talk to them like that doesn't even sound like like, look, apple apple having launched a crash project to make glasses, you know for uh, like any pod style glasses crash program that they're starting, it'll be out in a couple years would be a disappointing report. But if its apple is talking to employees to get their feelings about what they might do to consider starting making a project, right, you you're not at square one, then you're right square minus one, right? Like that's that's the thing that bothers me is if this is the if this is the beginning of the beginning of the process, what took them so long and and IT implies a level of kind of cleanliness and dis function.

So what I want to believe is that they have been playing around with this this category concept and just are going to people because they want to a lock IT down and make sure that it's gona fulfill what they they they desire. Um but you know that's that's the most optimistic read I can have here. The pessimistic read is they blew IT and they're still kind of blowing IT.

So someone are into me and said that like this report is wrong. Apple has internally been working on a glasses product for as long as they've been working the vision pro. You know that this person wrote and told me this and I believe IT but I my expectation is that not the product time thinking .

IT is so that I I think .

take airport dds about glasses right I think this .

is siri glasses. This is yeah it's glasses with uh speakers or or bone conduction h but like basically airports and uh camera, which is great for a visual intelligence and a microphone and you can do theory with IT and except you wear them as glasses that that's all this is it's not something with a display again and and that's one of the chAllenges here is that what if that trip people up in there like, no, no, no, stay out of this category? But I have a hard time imagine I will say this for the the case for optimism here is I have a hard time imagining that inside apple, the people who build airports and the people who are apparently, according to my command, trying to build airpower ds with cameras in them, that they, that they haven't considered the idea of what you know.

What would make this a lot Better is if we just made a pair of glasses that had airports in them, some version, bone conduction, whatever IT is, and boy, then we could get the camera position just right, like I have. How could they not? Have been experimenting with that IT seems so clear to me, but that gives me takes me back to my worry, which is, is there some person with a lack of vision or a or political something that has made them to kind of sideline this product?

I have a couple of things in this. One is like I agree with what you're saying, but I do feel like at the same time, you know the matter ray bounds been around for a while, the version and nobody really pay much attention to I didn't think it's that product version too. And so even then, right people, I think there was a feeling that like all nobody wants this, that want cameras on their faces. But then matter made a compelling enough product that IT worked and has been moved in the last year or so.

right? So do you dust off the old project at that point? go. Og.

we're going to get something. this. This is my concern, right? And I mention and connected our p here to my concern is that there is there is such a disdain for matter inside of apple that they would be blinded to the fact that matter could could reate a compelling product.

And so seeing this competitive product out there, they would just like, what was going to work. No gna want that. And they ignored the category. That is my concern. And that if they have ignored the category, which mut governance report seems to indicate, then we are multiple years away from them producing a product like this, which at that point, I think this gives a problem.

It's not great. And you're right, if there is some institutional arrogance, whether like I mea whatever meta does, don't do IT do the opposite. And like again, i'm sure we are some people are out there.

Listen this, like why is this even a category? Why are we even talking about IT? But I can tell you, I know people, mike federico, others who have this product and it's pretty cool.

And and federico, like I said last week, made the really good to sting point about how imagine if this actually was an apple product. IT would be Better integrated and IT would be good for apple and IT would be like a different version of your pods that got a bunch of other stuff in IT. And it's a really interesting idea.

And look, not every product is going to come out and is possible that, again, people at apple have looked at this and have said it's not a thing. The dangerous is that IT is a thing and they made a mistake. And and how quickly can they repeat IT? And the other thing that I would say here and this is that so I was little back, but little behind the scenes.

I listen to podcast when i'm walking the dog and when I take a shower, I believe this was in the shower, wash my hair, put in some conditioner, listening to connected. And I had this thought, which is, say what you will, about how efficient and powerful and profitable today's apple is. If I were tim cook, jeff Williams, any senior person at apple, one of one of the weaknesses that I would identify in apple today is that apple is so a streamline.

Apple is so efficient. I wonder if you've lost the ability to move quickly. And apple needs to be nimble.

IT needs to not be a lumbering colosse, right? IT needs to be nimble. And I would look at this and say .

we can .

do a Better product than met as ravens. And let's do IT. And I would say something like, I wanna announce IT next fall and average can be like, but memo, we can make a product in a year.

And and what I would say as well, the ipod came together in like a year, year and half. The iphone was a lot of research, right? Okay, i'll give you that. But like this is an accessory product and we have all the pieces.

And like if apple maybe not a year, maybe it's eighteen months, but like this is the thing this is my real question here is if apple has realized that this is a thing that they should make, probably they're not quite sure exactly what they're got the pieces, but they have to put IT together. They might have some prototypes, but they are not really right. How quick can they turn that into a product? My concern is what you said, which is it's two, three years away.

This is like all the rumors about those home pods like the home pod with the screen we've been to we've been talking about. I feels like we have been talking about that her like five years. And look, not everything is a priority one category.

But I would I would say if you have a lack of vision sometimes in the in the text space that moves really fast. Like and I understand artificial intelligence is actually probably the best example here where apple intelligence is A A moment where the company has to turn on a dime OK, i'll give you that one. But on the hardware side, here is example, which is you make a lot of money from wherever les home and accessories you have a hot accessory category that you didn't think was gonna click and IT clicks.

How fast can you get a product out? I'll tell you, samsung can get that out real fast, can you? And i'm not saying make IT bad. I'm saying make IT real good, make IT up to apple le's standards.

But how fast can you do that? And that's my that's my concern about the story writ large, is i'm a little worried the politics might make them clues. I'm a little worried about all of that.

I'm worried about the maybe some performs and things like that. But my biggest concern is you're gonna miss stuff. How do you react to that? And my concern is that a is that they're unable to react quickly, right? That is the biggest worry to me is the broader and inability to work quickly.

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So go to uni dot com is O O N I dot com and used the code upgrade twenty twenty four and you get ten percent off, thanks to uni pizza ovens for the support of the show and rely let's move into lawyer up as a way to actually consider this conversation from a slightly different angle uh, because we haven't there is some stuff that I wanted to touch and lawyer up today. We haven't come back to this in a while, but there's been some big movements. But i'll start by saying the iad that ipad O S is also now on the formal investigation by the european union and relation to the geral that IT became a gatekeeper, closes a gatekeeper back in April, which is why apple bw alternative at marketplaces to ipad O S eighteen.

The E. U. Has stated the ipad accessory like the apple pencil and the tight integration that they have together would be a is gonna investigate passed by stay already in september as well added to the many things dm, the e was added on to apples investigation that they're looking into uh into our ability of smart watches and uh head blue to with headphones and like how they all connect.

And is apple being fair, similar to what the department justice is doing? The reason I wanted to pay IT into this nose, like I was thinking when you were talking like, you know, the idea of like apple being so large and stuff like that, like the only product area that they would ve moved into in recent time. New one is the vision pro, which was, you know, trying to create this whole new thing.

And there this is the beginning of hopefully a long period of time. But they try to do this. But realistically, they're never going to have another iphone like the likelihood of them having a success like the iphone IT just doesn't feel feasible.

Nobody he's gona have another smart and smart phone .

because the the world is just so different now it's like something but IT be something else, so basic. The best thing apple can do is make accessory devices for the iphone, right? Ah airports have been a success. Awards have been a success.

why? Because everybody has an iphone in their pocket, right? And so like the idea of creating smart glasses that talk directly to the iphone should have been, maybe in retrospect, but should have been a product you can buy today. 嗯， because that is that is apple's best way to create something successful is to attach IT to the iphone.

Now the the E U D M, A argument about what we talked about previously, about the glasses is why does apple have to make that product and why and what I described, what federico said, federico was essentially saying, well, what would make the apple product Better is that apple would actually integrated.

But what you know, if you read between the lines, what is also apparent is the meta glasses aren't as good as they should be because they don't have that level of access to apple's platforms. They have kind of lower quality theory, and they they have A A more limited way of thinking stuff into the into the photo library. Not that IT isn't there, but you know, IT wouldn't be as as good as an apple product.

And I want to be clear here, these there are two interesting sites here. One is apple's integration is makes their products Better, their accessories Better, in part because they are the platform, oh, and they can build the software into the platform that makes accessories shine. And that is a secret sauce thing.

And they're very, very good at IT. The D, M, A, the E, U, would say you should do that, but you can't limit IT to yourself. And what they what they would basically be saying is you can make those meta ban competitors, apple.

But the moment you ship them with the software, the you ship that software also needs to be available to meta so that they can compete with you with their existing product. You can beat them by creating special software on your platform that only you have access to. And that's really interesting, right?

Because that means apple can make that product and make but in doing so, they will also make meta product Better and the'd have to compete on a more level playing field with men. And now I would argue as the platform manner as apple, they have a so many advantages already that letting meters product be a little bit Better. It's like just let them, just let them.

You could probably be them, just let them let let them compete with you. What I what I I don't think is happening, but it's a little concerning, is that you might not go into an accessory category because you don't want to make that stuff available. If your competitor is right, like go, well, this is just let's meet a immigrate stuff with the iphone without without our control.

But but you see the the the two edge sword here, right, which is the secret sauce, is all that integration. But what the E, U. Is saying is that integration is fine, as long as everybody can do that integration, right? And I don't think the E. U is saying you need to build an entire smart glasses regime into IOS because metal wants you to. But they are saying that if you're going to build your own smart glasses and do special stuff in your software to support them, meta needs that access to yeah and that is an interesting place to end up.

I believe i'd heard this from somewhere and trying to find an attribution for IT, but I can but I i'd heard that on at least I think maybe the verge cost were talking about maxara berg has been lodging or matter have been lodging complaints with the E U. About the fact that they can't put uh, photos in the camera, roll on iphone because they can on android. You can just just say to the camera.

yeah it's ridiculous. I mean, I know I believe that I haven't use this product, but I believe that because there's something invoking, it's like I using google photos. You if the apps not active um IT can wake up and put photos in the in the photo library. I think it's something like that.

You have to be really annoying. Open the APP and IT sees them and then you have to connect to the wify network of the device, download the images from the device to the to the phone and an is of a library um and if they are able to just connect, I have like a constant connection they could transfer that over .

can do on us right? And you know that that wouldn't be the case with apple yes, stuff and that this is I mean, my counter argument would be if met is asking for apple to build them features that don't exist to prioritize an apple product.

I'm less interested in listening to that argument, right? I think IT becomes a much stronger argument when apple builds of product that has that feature and doesn't doesn't allow me to access to that feature, right? I think that's the that's the issue there.

Not saying why android does IT, I think that's not good enough. But but this is this is a real it's an interesting issue, right? Because i'm i'm actually confident that if apple were to build those glasses, they would have to build IT with A P S.

That were accessible by third party glasses accessory makers, right? They would have to, if they want to ever ship that feature in that product in europe because that's how it's working. Now honestly, a lot of what apple ships these days is built with A P.

S. For third parties because of this. It's already started. It's already started.

The main reason that I wanted to, uh, bring layer up back to this episode is that bloom h loom bloom bug is report in an apple is set to receive the first fine relate to the dma. This is expected to land late this month before Margarett investigate the current E, U, competition commissioner. R is leaving .

her post dunk one 的 i mean the way， so I think I expect .

SHE wants to do this before he moves on, right? Yeah, apparently. As well as the fine itself, which will probably be very big, like ten percent of global revenue, whatever IT is.

The eu could also demand periodic penalty payments until apple are seen to be fully compliant with the D. M. A. Is expected that this fine and the penalties would be in relation to the ways in which apple restricts developers from attempting to steer their users away from, uh, you know, that basically steer their use the way is in which apple are trying to stop developers from having a direct transaction, right? So you don't .

need to buy this here. You can provide this on our website.

steer and the yeah right .

and the anti steering stuff that apple puts them because they don't they don't want you to they don't want to go in somewhere else. And so like you know, it's a class c right. Don't admit the web exist.

Don't admit the internet exist. Don't admit that you have a website, netflix, pretend that there you don't know how to log into how to make an at netflix account. Just pretend, just act dumb and it's stupid.

And and this is one of those areas where apple, I think that the interpretation of the eu or the european commission is that apple has paid the slip service but has failed to actually implement what they what they told them to, which is stop, stop steering. People stop preventing apps from steering you away from the APP store and an apple transact actions. They added some very limited functionality that is not know it's typical, like not appealing to anyone and and the E U. Basically saying, no, that's not IT. You need to actually do this essentially .

the things that they have done, right? So developers are able to communicate deals to their customers. They are able to offer outside payment links, right? So I can usually alternate t payment services, but you still have the scar screens that pop up, right?

To say, like all you know, can you trust this kind of thing? Still have to give apple their cut, right? There's still gonna their money. And to be able to use these things, you have to join the new payment business times, which include the core technology fee. So I think potentially, it's not really seen as there is actually much of a choice, right, like you're making this is and this is the process.

right? It's like they say, here's what you have to do. Apple does something in the end if apples approaches to drag their feet and say no, no, we've decided that this is the appropriate determination, their final recourses to say you you are in um you're Operating in outside the law and we're going to just keep finding you if you want to do business in the eu, you're not going to you need to follow our rules. You're going to pay us billions of dollars.

So I guess if this happens, we're at the crossroads, right, to pay money like this. Is this been the game of chicken, right? And and we're still playing chicken because bloomberg is, you know bomberg got this information right like so you know everyone still playing chicken here. A lot of conversation, i'm sure that happening in the last week between uh apple's lawyers and the european commissions lawyers.

But if they give them this fine and I don't know what the the kind of consequences would be, right? Like if you don't pay the fine, then what right? Like, you know, do do tim cook go to prison if he goes to paris? Like what know what happens, right? We don't know.

But here's my question for you. I'm sorry to ask this question. I'm gonna ask you, do you think this changes because the president is changing?

Do you think that there is a possibility that the trump approach will be different to the biden approach because the biden approach to the E U D M. A has been, I don't know what you talking about, right? Just just done nothing that seems right.

And not not really any comment. Do you imagine a scenario? Well, whether that is different?

I have a hard time imagining that the E. U. Is gonna back down from this approach.

Yeah, because if they, if they, if they put this fine up and then immediately back down. And what was the point of IT? right? Like IT is like, exactly, they kind of have to stick to this.

But like I just I can't see how this is playing out, right? Apple is not gonna give I cannot believe that apple will give the european on ten percent of their revenue that they have made this year. I can't imagine apple.

apple will will look, apple just gave ten million to ireland.

Yeah, but that was a taxi thing, right? Like that was like they shouldn't have done this and they did IT.

The bottom line, this is, do you want to do business in the E. U. yeah. And ultimately, you either need to pay the fine or you need to not.

This is not like russia finding them where helps us like whatever because we're not going to do business with you, apple. And I don't think it's realistic to say apple is going to pull out of selling things in the E. U.

I don't think that that's gonna en. I know there are people who make that comment. I think it's unrealistic for that to be the case.

But let me let me just if you would allow me to devil advocate this, right? Let's say the apple of decided they're not changing the way that the absolute ks, they will not do what europe wants them to do. They will be fine forever. Now at a certain point, that fine is going to be more money than they make in that scenario than what?

okay. So will that something going to happen? It's gonna happen. okay. either. Look, either you are, uh, following the laws, which I would argue they have to do yes, because IT doesn't stop with the E U.

You don't have to like them.

You do you don't like what you have to follow them. That's right. Um that you know don't murder everybody um so that's a reference.

Sorry, what was that like? They don't, mike, don't. Roman d don't. You either play baller, you don't. But the problem is if you walk away, if you take your billing, go home, you have you're basically community to taking your own, going home from every region and country that puts these rules in place. Yeah and that is a that is a .

high street. The U S at some point, right good include the U S.

M. Could um but probably not. I guess what I would say is you're committing to a very high stakes poker game where you're basically saying to every regulator in the world, do you want apple products in your country? Yeah because if you do, you can't regulate us like this or we're going to walk away. Personally, I don't think that's going to happen. And my number one reason is because apple is already playing ball with the european commission.

already changing all this. They're doing things right. They're not doing what they want them to do. And we've known this all time.

So I think, I think the fact that they have been doing IT dragging their feet, fighting IT not trying to overdo IT do IT literally the minimum responsible, I think, suggest that they're most likely going to continue that. The alternative would be for them to walk away again. The alternative would be we are going to walk away.

And that could even be a negotiating tactic where they say, all right, we're going to pull out of the U. U. Yeah and and see if the countries of the eu.

And the european parliament, because that's the other part of the politics here, right? I don't know anything about european politics and european community politics. European union politics are weird because they're elected from the countries but separate elections from the elections in the country.

Yes, it's it's a different kind of thing. Um you know you think the electronic college is weird. There's lots of weird electoral things out there. And so sometimes the people and they don't always function as a block but anyway, so I guess my question would be, one changes that the political desire in europe to go down the path of regulating big tech becomes less.

My understanding is that not gonna en, but if IT word to happen, that would be one thing where literally the european parliament could be like ec, uh, dma, it's out. We're we're gna repeal IT, it's gone. We don't want to do that.

We love big tech companies. They could do that. I get the feeling that they won, but they could do that. But if apple want to make a stink and say we're going to leave the eu, IT would be potentially calling them on that point.

IT could also be a negotiating tactic or it's like, okay, do this and will wave the fine or do this in the final ba lesson or whatever. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that they already are playing this game, which leads me to believe they'll continue playing this game.

Um IT would take a real hard liner inside of apple to say no, this is where we draw the line this far no further. And we're doing this not just for europe, but for everywhere else. We're basically going to threaten how good does apple think IT is. We're going to threaten the world with if you regulate us, you don't get our stuff.

That is an incredible thing to say, right? Like that is like supervillain. IT is IT is a one way that apple .

getting carb neutral is that they found an island in the pacific where they are relocating anyway. Yes is is is supervision stuff um and the problem I mean danger is that apple is so arrogant that they believe that with holding apple's beautiful greatness from individual regions will terrify the politicians and the regulators, countries and the billing. No, no, no, apple, please don't go.

I think the reality is that apple needs in most cases, apple needs them more than you know. Then they need apple that that the bottom is like apple needs money and growth in all these regions. And if japan comes and says you need to change your APP store rules, like japan's a big market for apple, they're not going to walk away.

The E, U. Is a big market and and that's why I don't believe them. I don't believe they would walk away because I think that they would be a cascade ID of lost markets. And the that is again, it's a tough one because it's apple's desire for money and apple's desire for control. But I believe that in the end, apple wants money more than that once control.

And and if it's if it's let's see, we can let people link to outside the APP store or we can sell products in the european union or japan or australia or india or whatever. You you start to list them like, come on, you would have to be the hardest of hard liners to say. The right thing to do is four go all of that revenue in order to a IT maintaining that control.

The only thing i'll say about the about the incoming administration in the U S. Is that it's going to be super friendly to business. And I I I think the only thing there would be that we go back to politics if there is some incredible trade war that happens where the eu.

Is super disaffected with the united states, uh, or the or the the U. S. Is going to pressure the E.

U. To lower their restrictions on big tech companies. And that creates a political environment where the european parliament backtracks again, backtracks on the D.

M. A. That could be a scenario. But you know IT doesn't seem to me to be as likely it's nothing is impossible as what I think last.

We can prove that nothing anything can happen but um but I think it's more than that. The U. S.

Will remain a favorite able place for apple. And a lot of ways we haven't talked about like apple, there's a lot of business in china. There are a lot of terrorists coming from china.

I A tariff s that may be placed in the way of companies that do business in china. I would my quick read on that is, uh, it's it's an issue for apple, but I feel like this is why tim cook congratulate congratulation on trump on being president. Tim cook to apple goes to those things, invites tempters factories in the us. I think there's the the quit procol as be visible with the president, agree to some stuff that gives the surface of the year of USA USA. And if you do all of that, we're not gna.

We'll find a way for europe business not to be hurt by what we're doing because it's more about making people feel good than IT is about because again, although although the incoming administration is totally going to be trade war with china focused, what you don't want to do is be seen as destroying one of america's most successful companies, not just in the us, but worldwide. You don't want that. That's not apple, I firmly believe, is not going to be a victim of a trade war with china.

Well, I want lost time right .

at exactly. An apple is an important apple. And the last thing, amErica politicians want to look tough on trade, but what they don't want to do is destroy american companies.

They don't want to do IT. They want to make IT look like they've convinced the american companies to be more USA centric. They do.

And and that's what apple did last time. So that will happen again. So unless there's like a real skis m with the E U.

but is like where last time tim cook kind of was getting the Monica of a america's ambassador to china, right? Yeah, for these reasons, the key is go found in each chant, one of them as the U. S. person. No one has the the chinese later .

is so many different apple products want.

I do just want to read a little bit from the blind bug out or right, going back to the money of IT all under the law, e. Regulators that powers to find the world's most powerful tech firms, ten percent of their global annual sales, twenty percent in the event of repeat infringement or period, finds much as five dollars of the average daily revenue as, sorry, yeah, five percent.

So that would be right to start with if they do this rule, that that this fine would be that in nine billion dollars, which is ten percent of their revenue for this year, they're going to continue repeater infringing ing IT, I expect. So that would be, I don't know, twenty percent more that I don't reget percent, but let to do the period thing, five percent of that average daily revenue every day until they get compliant. Like I know what you are saying about island.

Island was thirteen billion. The beginning of this is three times that. sure. It's gonna a problem, is a problem.

It's a problem. IT is i'm just saying that I think that in the end they will play ball, I mean, rather than hand because right again, its revenue versus control, and it's not just the cost of the fine, is the cost of abandoning every market that regulates apple. yes.

And I don't know what they are gone to do because I would say, you know, my impression is that there are people with an apple who are hard liners who really believe like no will let just let just get out there. But I think in the end, you can when moisty one's growth, you can't abandon the markets. And and also, it's not just the eu.

It's literally every other market that wants to regulate apple. Who has the upper hand apples? What is apple? Threaten apple could only threaten leaving.

And if you're a company or if you're A A country or region that really believes the big tech is out of control, you I don't i'm not sure that is enough, right? The threat of apple abandoning your country is like, well, yeah, but you're going to lose our access to our market then and you want our money, right? So I think in the end, I think we'll see what happens in we're back to internal apple politics. But like at some point, somebody just has to say what is obvious and has been obvious since the beginning, which is steering people away from the apostle, isn't worth this is not worth that. Yes.

it's not worth a lot of things that they do. You know what I mean, like it's not .

worth a lot of IT. A lot of things they do aren't worth IT. Apple for all of the times that apple acts closet into the point of arrogance about the quality of everything they do when IT comes to competition.

Sometimes they sure act small, right? And this is an example where there are so many advantages that apple has on its platforms, so many advantages being the easy, already prepared, you can pay for whatever. And yet they're willing to risk billions of dollars in fines, tens of millions of dollars in fines because they're RAID to compete with the outside.

yes. And maybe you know when when nobody is regulating you, you know you're even if it's. You know some millions of dollars but not billions of dollars even if it's you know it's money.

Why why would we give IT away when we can keep IT once one of your regulators comes to you and says, no, if you keep doing that, it's not onna cost you millions, it's gonna you billions then the conversation changes. So um look the the chAllenger is we don't know what the politics are. We don't know what apples internal politics are.

We don't know what the european commissions internal politics are in the european parliament and relax are nor do we know about other countries in other regions that are looking at what happening in europe. And i'm telling you, they're all like, oh, we're going to do that too if that makes us look good, you know right? So it's a high stakes gambit here, right? And I if I were at apple, my gut feeling is you just got a cave because it's not gonna.

Stop that. The E U. You can't start abandoning categories, right? You can't do IT. And so you just have to take IT and they're not going to like IT, but they're gonna have to take IT. And their strategy so far has been this this uh, passive aggressive resistant strategy, right? It's the will do what we think the letter of the law is, but no further. And maybe these fines will be the thing that forces them to realize that, that is not gonna a work that's not a winning strategy because they're trying to make IT like, oh, well, you know, we did what you said and the commission comes back and says, no, didn't you did you did you interpreted this in the most favorite able way for you? But you've completely missed the point, and we told you miss the point.

And at this point, you either get the point or you get, you know, you get find billions of dollars over, you know, again and again, it's not pay a fine and walk away, Scott free is you will pay a fine and then keep paying IT yet until you do what we want, until we are satisfied because that's the relationship is you need to satisfy us. And unless there's somebody at apple whose a hard liners like this destroyed our business and our business model and we can do business here and they choose to walk away, I would argue even that is probably a negotiation tactic because I just can't see apple saying we won't do business in any place that dares to regulate us. I just don't think that's gona fly .

while I look forward to seeing her arrest of this month. Faults, if they are actually onna do this is it's gonna messy. And we'll say this episode is brought to you by your friends.

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So if you are customer service decision maker, should you all cold today by going to vitally, the I O, such as upgrade is V I T A L L Y D I O ash upgrade vitally, do I O seh upgrade for a free pair of apples pro when you shed all call by meeting, thanks to vital for the support of the show and rely? So the m four max are available now, and you have over six colors. The whole team, you and then i've been working on reviews. So you had the mac pro and the imac can then had the mac mini, right?

Yes, correct.

Have you used to see a mac mini all?

Or did I just go completely? I haven't. I haven't then scait so I would like to you.

I love that so much IT makes me smile every, every, the bottom of every. Dm, post east coasts bureau chief, and use the west coast bureaux. Ef, no.

on the other chief.

okay. So there is no west coast bureau chief.

No, there just need be because it's me. Couldn't you be both? But i'm not okay.

You can manage yourself, you know, you can have like one to ones.

Anyway.

I do take away what what are your, uh, opinions on the performance of the m four chips?

Yes, so I get the end for in the m four pro. Um you know short version is m for pro equals in three max for something is other than the G P U. I mean the G P U.

What a max chip gets you is maybe a couple more cores, right? But what IT, what IT really gets you is C P U course. But IT gets you the option to have lots and lots of GPU course, not in the pro.

So if you're a GPU constraint person and you just want the most GPU possible, that's what the max is for. But the problem is for everybody else because it's still got a lot of deputies, just not as is got ten and not twenty, but like it's still pretty good and uh, performance keeps going up, right? Like the base m for I was part of my takeaway actually want it's a chAllen because then I got to review the new hot uh thing and I got to review the just incremental updated mac models.

But I will say one of my big takeover of this review cycle was that the and four macbook pro, the base model, which has been a joke for a while, right? Like he went to the process where I was like, the last touch bar model. And I was like, why would anybody buy this? And why is this even called the mac pro? Because it's basically like a macbook error, but with a fan, but otherwise the macbook air is nicer in every way and all that.

And IT evolved over time. Got the screen last time, I believe, and now it's got the screen. It's got next to port. And also the m four is a very capable chip.

And I feel like i've come around to the point where the m four macbook pro feels like a full fledge member of the macbook proline. And there are lots of reasons that you would choose IT over the macbook care. I don't know if I would chose IT over the macbook are, but there are a lot of reasons one might choose IT because IT is a micro pro IT.

Yes, it's heavy er and tick er in all of that. But it's also got the fans so it's going to run a little bit faster. It's got the ports on both sides, which is really nice.

I didn't use to have that IT comes in the black color that IT didn't used to be allowed to have because that was only for the Better macbook prose. It's just Better than all this was got that webcam that's new and improved over the old webcam. So um that part of that is that the m for is that much Better, right? He just keeps getting Better.

And part of that is that they've upgraded the rest of the base model maker pro to feel like IT feels like they're not withholding fundamental features of the product line from the base model, which is how I used to be. Now it's just the one with the m four chip in IT, and I think that's Better. IT feels less like this red headed stepped child of the macro proline and more like an actual uh you know full fledge to member so um but yeah the apples doing a great job with the chips.

The chips just keep advancing in in the pro took a big step forward this time to the point where I feel like there are a lot of people out there with uh, older max chips who may look at the pro, uh, including not just the mac with pro but also like a max studio versus a mac mini for whom the extra we don't know what gonna in the ultra, right? But if you're not looking for the ultra and you're just going to go with the max, we don't know what the spects are gonna be of an inform max max studio and they may cross over IT may be one of those things where you could get either one in their both pretty close together, the build build up of an m four pro mac mini verses, uh, an m for max max studio. They'll be a little bit of a cross over there and you get more G P U course.

And like I could see that, but I think for a lot of people, it's just not worth IT right less. You really need all that extra stuff. And I am speaking when I speak about a lot of people, i'm including us in this like the m4 pro is so powerful， i'm not sure that more is necessary unless you're in a very stratified, verified, special high in position where you really need to crack IT on GPU course or whatever.

Yeah, I think that apple done a good job of actually naming these ships, right? That there is a standard one as the pro one and the maxon ultra. The names of those like if you take them out of the context of the way that apple uses those names in other places, which isn't like IT doesn't really yeah I think do the job like with these chips at least like maxim ultra should be scary names to you because this scary chips like you don't .

need that yeah if you don't know if you need IT.

you don't need IT. Like genuinely I really probably no want to buy the ultra really is degree. It's too much computer for basically everyone .

the people people who need know who they are.

Yeah so I would say that the the most key takes way you give me though is what you sort to stop, which is the m four pro is basically the m three max chip. Like that's pretty impressive. I think like .

other other than that, IT has fewer GPU course. But otherwise yates the performance it's come a long way like the m four pro is I don't want to think about how IT performs compared to my m one max max studio.

Yeah, but it's faster, right like it's faster IT IT is that's just how IT is um and so that I you know this is time marches on but but what IT makes me feel again is that for most people first stuff for most people the m four is the which is one of the reasons why I thought, know what? You want a macbook pro or your CoOperation, only buy macbook pro. I want to buy macbook cares like the m four.

Macbook pro is great because the screen is amazing and it's got ports on both. Which you know if you've ever had a situation, we are like you, but I want to charge on this side or I want to play something in on this side and on that low and configurations like, nope, you can. It's all on the left side, only on the left side.

great. So it's got all that. But like the m for so good that like do you need to pay more money for an m four pro, macbook pro? A lot of people just don't. They just don't.

I could argue that apple silicon is so good that there are very few people who even need to upgrade from A M one to an m four because the m one is still so good. So certainly, the m four is a based chip is great, and then the pro is that much more powerful in a lot of ways in C, P, U. And in G, P, U.

IT does a whole lot more, is a really nice left. If these are the only two chips apple made, IT would be pretty good. The high, high end people would be sad. But but IT, it's an increasingly small .

amount of that are than just the power of the chip.

They do and they don't.

I don't really make a computer for them.

And if if you ask me before apple silicon was announced, what apple strategy was going to be, I would basically say, look at the m four. In the m four pro, that's what I thought the strategy would be, which is we've got a phonetic and that does a mac thing. And then we've got the like, the Better one that is for prose. And they've write IT off.

Then the fact that they have a mac studio and a mac pro and a and m for max chip and a forthcoming him for alter, presumably that's apple going above and beyond for the high end of their market because that's what they can do, like there's all the other things they can do, but that is what they can do is scale up that thing. And that's great again. But but the m4 pro is so good that I think IT will slice away a whole bunch of users who might have previously focused on the max， both as a macbook per buyer and as somebody who's choosing between like a mac studio or a mac mini.

The laptops that you screen was actually was took up quite a bit of the review. And while I feel like we understood what um you know the idea of that being brighter and there are being in in a display option, I kind of got the feeling from you that if you were buying one of these laptops yourself that you you would want an anorexia, you would go with the brightness .

that you be you macbook air user, yeah, I love the little laptops I always have. But you know, when i'm going to review, I really want to put myself in a in a neutral position and understand who the product is for. I I accept that my gravitation, the macbook area is in part a very much like it's a it's a idiot sync racy of me and I don't want to write, you know, that's one of the chAllenges of ber review is you your review is yet less useful.

Your review needs to be something opinionated, but it's less useful if you say, well, I wouldn't want want to forget IT, right, because that I want i'm trying to do here. I'm trying to understand who is for and how IT serves those people. So I might not buy a micro pro, right? I like the air.

I like a small as I like. I think that is all those things, boy. First of the macbook pro display, I don't get to use IT every day, so I have A I have not lost my aw of IT that macbook pro users like I had to send my review its back right now and I have a macbook care macro users lose the awe of that display.

IT is beautiful. IT is big. IT is, uh, promotion, which is gorgeous. IT is such a good display. And now it's brighter because even though they're not changed the max HDR brightness, they've changed the max sdr brightness, which is the most that all of us use most of the time to a thousand nits. This is the second, I think, consecutive generation that has increased that.

So it's actually because I was six hundred and them before that, I think he was like three, seventy five or four hundred. So like over a couple of generation. If you using like m one macbook pro, this screen is so much brighter if you crank IT up all the way.

Um which why would you do that? The answer is because your outside and I I right outside I use my macro pro outside all the time or my macro ao outside all the time and my ipad pro all the time so that in an nano texture, right where your in situations where there's glare and yeah if you're with a laptop, right, you could like change your angle and try to get rid of the glare. But in some circumstance is, especially if you're outside, you can't.

Or even if you're at a meeting and there's a window bind you, you can't. So if you combine the nano texture with the extra brightness, you've got A A computer that can be used way, way Better in really bad lighting situations, including maybe especially outside. And the ano texture is good. IT is noticeable.

If you are in a Normal lighting environment, you will notice that everything is a little defused in a way that you know mean like the contrast goes down a little bit, right? Like the black aren't quite as black as a kind of greg is the lightest scattering ing off with them and that's just that's how is but IT looks pretty good and your benefit is IT IT really is IT IT does your brain on I mean, if you you seen nanotechnology lays before, get that moment where you see the the edge around IT that is not nanotech tue and it's all shiny and then and then as you move the light source moves into the nanotechnology IT just vanishes. It's like it's not there anymore.

It's extremely strange and uh, amazing. So yeah, it's a huge display upgrade to probably the best man display ever made already. So you know let's not sleep on the on that display. It's gorgeous.

When the studio and IT had decent stage camera in IT, you've got into a little bit of a controversy, not like you were involved in a lot of reporting around the quality of the sound became a big thing.

The centers .

age camera, which is also still the top magics of camera that is on the imac and on these laptops, looks significantly Better in the images that .

you've posted. IT is much Better. Regional center stage camera like in the studio display looks I think part of the conStellation about IT was IT looks good.

IT looks finding good light. But once the lighting conditions to get weird, IT starts to look real bad. yes.

So there's a new sensor. It's it's a twelve mega pixel ultrawise, right, which previously wasn't either of these products. They just had A A ten eighty camera.

Yes, they've used in other products. I ve used this twelve pico. That was what the center stage camera was, is a new sensor, apple tells me. And the housing is a little be different in the imac that in the macropore because of the size, right? The macro pro is not as thick as the imac, so they have to figure that out the display portion.

But uh, I will tell you, I was sitting in a badly lit room, the back bedroom here, like really badly IT, no lights on the afternoon, a little bit of hazy sunshine coming in through through the blinds. But that was about IT. And I opened photo booth on the imac and i'm telling you, IT didn't take more than a fraction of a second for me to go. Oh, they this is Better and you know their reviewers guide says it's new, but like it's new to the product, IT doesn't say it's new to the apple's product lines.

So IT was unclear and I had to actually go to an apple pr person and say, is this new new like not the same as in the studio display? And I was told yes so okay great but like IT was obvious yeah harder to see IT in steel um I had to crop a steel for use of my review of the imac but like my I and I put them on at the same levels of my studio display that I have back there. So the to display.

And then I had the imac and then I had a maco pro. And I think the imac is a little bit Better than the mac proprio. Um I don't know why my guesses that the objects are a little compromise, but it's still Better than than the the the sound stage camera was. And I like seven stages a feature right because you you wanna be able to uh choose your uh your angle right it's it's nice to be able to, even if you don't use the autozone in modern, in current makos in fifty and fourteen, you can also select the camera and just choose center and IT centers that on you. And that's nice and a regular web can won't do that, but you look at the sample, the studio to display webcam in the bad light.

My face is all blucher it's blutch y because I just can't IT can soft in IT IT can process IT but is blutch y and and the imac and microphone camera like you can see these specific shadows, you can see little lines around my eyes you can see blemishes on my face I mean, it's not like the most flattering picture, but it's in bad light. And IT is just clear in every way. So apple, this is totally apple, realizing that they kind of gift IT with stage camera and putting a Better sensor in there.

And I am a found at center stage as a feature. Like I said, I think there are a lot of things ah the benefit from IT and the imac is the most important place to have something like center stage. IT was so frustrating when the m one I came out, they had already introduced the ipad with understated and in the end, one I I came out there like, no, he doesn't have that future.

What are you doing? Why did that happen? But it's finally here. Looks great on the imac IT looks like good on the macbook pro. And I think it's a good feature again, if you I wish that the center stage algorithm was a little bit smarter IT still feels sometimes like I gets confused about what it's looking at. But you know, the beauty is that in fourteen and fifteen of mac O S, you can just click on the little camera icon in the menu bar and turn off center stage, and then just like drag the angle around and zoom in and out or just click recenter and it'll give you exactly the shot you want, which is really nice because you don't have to till your laptop display to a weird angle or tilt your imac or turn that you can just change the view and that's very and they know why .

you didn't have the mac money, obviously are aware dance review the same way I am. So I just want to point out a few things in that I thought were interesting. Uh, one of the things I am funny is like that was referencing the reduced weight of the mac mini, which makes IT really easy to get to the power button because, you know.

you just liked IT up. Actually my favorite, my favorite piledriver a and I had to check is .

it's the latest mac ever no.

it's the lightest mac ever. It's lighter than the um than the little macbook.

No way. Yeah that's wild life mac ever. Great again.

And I looked I couldn't find, I couldn't find a lighter .

mac in part .

I would imagine that.

well, yeah, but I would imagine they're also using .

a little elimination .

as and .

less than two pounds fun. And yeah.

I found and .

there are a lot of dirt out there who listen to keys like this, so say, why are they trying to make a smaller? That's not IT. That's not IT.

First of the one, the last one was big because I had to fit an optical drive in IT. Yeah, that's how long they've had. That one is is IT comes from when they had a not drive in the mac mini. If you look inside a modern application that many of the older vintage, you will see there's nothing in there but air.

They're not making the mac mini smaller and then having to compromise the mac mini in order to fit IT in because who needs a smaller computer? They're making them make me the smaller because IT doesn't need to be any bigger anymore. And so they made IT smaller, which I really love. But I don't think it's a compromise at all at the .

only compromise they made is put in the power bar on the bottom. But I just don't think that, that is as much of a problem as people might get out to be.

Yeah, well, I mean, this is this wraps IT up from my whole thing, as I think I said last week of of shutting down my computer like this. Is apple very clearly saying, why would you use the power button? Yes, but you know, it's a cork.

There's always going to be a cork. I heard from somebody at apple who said I have known all along that people would make a thing out of the power, but even that what really doesn't matter, it's like, of course, of course, everything. There's always a thing. There's always a gate. There's always a thing.

Chance and five max. A T, about A A, quite from a interview on chinese video sharing site billie with greg joseon joannis, where the translation is a of one of them saying they just state which one we struck the size of IT so much is equivalent, alf, the size generation pot, because it's so small, it's venial just tuck your finger in there and hit the button. In fact, the most important thing, you should pretty much never use the power button on your mac. I don't even remember the last time I turned on a mac.

see. Yeah, he is my heart. But that's that's thing. My my max studio was mounted under my desk, so if I had A, A, A, A, an under desk amount for the mac mini, IT would just have a cut out there. I mean, I already have to reach under my desk to the back side of the max studio and press the button every year. The mac mini I get .

that would actually be more convenient.

right? You bury if you bury your mac mini lake on your desk behind stuff and all of that like I get IT. Um i'm sure there will be interesting a little hacks for IT, but but it's true. The bottom line is apple doesn't expect you to shut down hard shut down your mac mini on a regular basis or your mac in general, they expect you put to sleep.

And the fact is uh, three quarters of the max that are sold and have been for a long time or laptops and apple, that means that apple has gotten sleep real good, right? And uh one of the reasons I shut down is because I come from an era I used to use a macbook are at home and at work and travel IT with IT in my backpack back and forth. And I can tell you the number of times that I opened up up at home and IT was hot in mayor because the market had failed to the sleep.

There was a time when sleep was real bad had on the mac. It's not it's really good now. So I I like I said, my reasons to shut down or more about power management because I have a smart switch that turns off a bunch of other stuff, went the max down.

So I don't have to do IT. And I really like that automation aspect of IT, but i'll figure IT out or I won't. But but generally, apple doesn't think you should shut down your mac, right? And and there's a setting for and what if the power goes out? There is a setting in energy.

I forget where IT is in, in the settings out. There's a setback that's like we put when the power comes back, literally, there's a setting reboot when the power comes back. So the power goes out and the box reject power comes back, mac turns back on. It's fine, right? So they are trying to reduce the number of times that you ever need to press that power button.

So even so, I member this, like, when I came out like, what about the people that rack mountains? This isn't and like and I saw on threats output link conditional max stadium, who are the innovates and leaders in mac mini uh, hosting they got early access to and for mac mini and were posting about IT and they're like, yeah no problem we just right now no issue for us like we are handled so like they are handled, you know so don't .

worry about yeah I saw three preset to you recount for them that somebody did. All the three prints will be out there and then all of the are the things. It's fine. I'm um I think that the real question is, are we buying this mac mini because I feel like the interest probably yes.

Finally, I mean, downs review can't assaulted to me for a few things of like one like, you know, he kind of explained why having the ports are great, but like, I know i'm still gonna need my dog, but i'm still gonna out to plug the stuff. And that is most important to me. And I have a little bit extra, I more ports available to me on the computer itself than I do my map, which is dog right now, tiny and powerful, and it's gonna great.

And so basically my thing is I am going to buy this to leave at the end of this year or early next year. And i'm believing IT because it's gonna a big I want to do is part of a big project, basic. I just need to tie down my desk and rebuild IT. So I want to make sure I have the time to do that, which I don't have for the next little bit. But the reviews I can done review, especially if just like, yeah, this is this is exactly the computer that I want.

I had a moment of realizing that if i'm living the two desk lifestyle, which I am now, we're getting it's getting colder here. And so I for the last few weeks i've been in studio b on uh, three days a week. I'm out here in the garage monday on tuesday because i'm doing things with video. There's is a Better play to shoot video upgrades, youtube videos and uh and mac break weekly.

But uh once that there's day friday, i'm just leave in a cold out here, not using power to heat this and working in the back and I had this realization, which is one if I buy a mac, many I can either have IT in the back, or I can have IT out here and put the max studio in the back. And then i've got this top power instead of my m two maco here, which is fine until I want to encode video or something. And then IT is or or a zoo meeting ends and it's trying to demus the zoom file that has been recorded and and then I realized, yes, IT is kind of slow at that stuff because it's just an m two, right? Like I love IT, but as a test top, I can feel that it's a low end laptop.

I get IT, I get IT. Then, mike, I had the real weird realization, which I don't think I want to set IT up this way because of what would be required to disconnected and reconnected. But I I thought of like or could I just take the mac mini between the rooms and plugged in in in either place? If the .

chAllenge would be A I.

I would need to plugged into the the studios display and and a dark so that I didn't have to unplug five things. And we plugged five things every time. But the thought occurred to me that with the mac mini, I could literally just pull IT out and walk back to the other room. And IT would .

be my same computer. That would be which, especially if you had a good enough dog, you just have display go into the one yes, that be because I obviously I say to you, like I thought you were saying or maybe i'll get the mac mini, but the same point but then you got two one test time is between the spots .

that what yeah so i'm thinking about IT. I'm thinking about IT. interesting. I could actually try that. Then my next step c was I could actually try that with the back studio.

Yes, you could. You totally could. you? Totally good. But it's not fun. It's not as fun as a little magni.

Pick IT up also in one next studio has the loud fan. So IT really doesn't need to be under the desk, right, because the fan is kind allowed on IT.

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This once kind of a bit of an asked upgrade follow up, which we don't get to do too often consumes define who says was IT clear? This is, this is a relation to loss IT, where we were talking about john tennis taking over from to code. That's the idea.

So Stephen says was IT clear that tim cook was being prepared to succeed Steve jobs in the same way IT seems to people that john tennis is being prepared to succeed tim. Also, I get a little nervous with how confident people are that tennis will do this. IT feels unwise to be unconfident about such things, but maybe i've just listened to too many history podcasts.

right? Well, I want to be overconfident, stone says. Well, nobody is counting their chickens. I think what, uh, government is reporting is that is that turn is is the most likely candidate and they're trying to coach up.

I think german himself has reported that like jeff Williams is the person who would do IT if tim cook um had you know the proverbial hit by a turn up truck kind of thing, right hit by a bus if something shocking happened and tim cook out to leave or or passed away or whatever. I think jeff illian s would probably do the job in for a while, but he's about the same ages. Tim cook, so it's not really a solution to retirement and that turn this has been identified and you do this right, you identify potential people and you try to train them up.

And we talked about that here, that apple can't find people on the outside, so they really need to get a right and make an effort to train people up on the inside. But nothing is guaranteed. I think that the germans reports are that john Turner seems like the good candidate inside to be a long term replacement.

But that's today's thinking. And thinking, thinking can change, right? So, uh, I don't know who would be overconfident.

John turnus, maybe he shouldn't be, but i'm not sure who else even has confidence. John turnus, is is possibility, but nobody should count the chicken and before their hatch. So I say not in terms of tim.

First off, Steve, I mean, Steve, Steve, cancer diagnosis changes the whole scenario here, right? Yeah, the answer is yes. Was tim cook being prepared to succeed Steve jobs? Not only was he tim cook did did Steve jobs as the job while Steve was on leave for his cancer treatment yeah.

IT was obvious to us at the time because IT was made obviously in that way of like he is not going to be around for a bit who's gonna run the companies in term C E. O. They he appointed to cooks. So like IT was more obvious to us then that if something happened to jobs that .

cook would take over yeah so so cook was always that guy. And um and they had I think fl shiller did the keynotes ah but tim cook was the in room you acting CEO as the CEO and IT was very clear and at the end, when you know if you read some of the stories about IT, we think of Steve resigning A C E. O and and remaining like chairman becoming chairman of the board and appointing tim as CEO. We read that now as part of the story of the end of Steve's life, right? Because he did that and a months and a half .

later he died my read.

based on the reporting we've seen, is they were treating Steve pretty aggressively during that period and that I don't know how much of this is just people talking to other people and it's not the reality. And if you were ah in the family, if you are marine, you know you knew what what was going on. But the reports at tly suggest that they were still aggressive training, Steve, and there were some surprise that IT reached the point where he was gonna go because they were hoping that these other treatments were going to work.

I think I think the way that they did IT would suggest IT was an intentional plan, right that like because if he if he thought he wasn't gonna around anymore, he could have just taken that as the opportunity to time.

Yes, but he right and he remained as chairman, which again, IT could be for sure. But this is what I think. I think he got sick enough and was going.

I think the thought processes was probably more like he's so sick now that he is going to need to do nothing but treatment because otherwise he's gna die and that's what happened. But I think you're right. I feel like my god feeling is that wasn't the move, that this was a move intended to be permanent but not intended to be a handovers.

And then and then Steve died six weeks later, right? I don't think that was the plan. So anyway that so IT did happen, right? IT did happen that way. But but the real clinch is the tim uh was the was the acting CEO when when Steve was on leave first cancer treatments earlier and that was a period a few years earlier and tim cook was in charge so IT was IT was Christal clear from that.

A brissenden says. I haven't heard anybody go deeper int to the software capabilities of the new ipad mini. So i've not been able to figure out if the a seventeen pro chip allows the ipad many to run apps like final cut or other pro apps like swith playgrounds.

So IT does actually that does IT couldn't before. But the seventeen proof now allows the ipad mini to install and use of final cut uh and uh logic on the ipad, which is very funny. To me because the screen is so small, but you can do IT, but you could block IT in to the splay. I think I think maybe with the ipad mini, you could you could do some display meiring, but he just doesn't have stage manager still, which is, again, I think the funny thing so you can do IT, yep, you can do do IT.

And if you want to want to say one of the arguments, I know you've made this, which why would they put an m one or m two in the ipad mini? And I think what we've heard is IT would have require a substantial revamp of the product that they didn't want to do. But I have heard the argument that is well, but it's too smaller.

Run stage manager and all m serious processor ipads can run stage manager. And so therefore, they wouldn't do IT my answer. I just want to say that my answer would be if apple want to to put them series processor in the ipad mini and didn't want to enable stage manager or didn't want to enable stage manager on the internal display only they would just put note IT.

They would say all ipad except ipad mini, right? Like it's not a law. Where is like what we can put IT in there because then we have to offer stage manager. They don't have to they could disable IT and they are just change the wording. So but IT is great that a runs, final cut and logic that's hilarious and great.

And you can get into a display. The the you have many with the seventeen pro supports one external display up to.

So final cut would you could set IT to show the output the external while on the internet, I say this is also funny because I reviewed the previous generation ipad mini and added to the podcast on a using apple pencil and fair, right, and like eight tracks and IT was fine. So you know, the apple stuff has higher requirements that maybe of other people stuffed because the ipad many I mean, I was ridiculous.

I had to edit IT in vertical orientation so I could see all the tracks. But I totally edited A I think a total party kill um entirely or on the ipad mini a couple years ago and IT was fine. So it's there's plenty power in there. And now with the eight something problem, this huge mental power there.

this question from tom Carries with its some sentiment of seeing a lot online recently, which is curious to me, do you think the reaction to apple september iphone event shaped the series of mac announcements? IT seems like people were underwood after the september event. Do you think apple could and would have reacted that quickly and change plans for october to something, quote, less than an event? No, none seeks so either. And I also don't understand the underwhelming part of the september. Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's .

a little like coachmen. Like you can listen to the you can listen to people who understand, but like apple has to do IT everybodys paying the iphone launches. The iphone is the most important product.

They have to do IT. They have to do IT they should do IT they will keep doing IT W W C and the iphone event are the are the landMarks. They will always happen because they need to because they're important.

Um I don't think they reacted quickly and change plans. I think that they're experimenting. And I think their idea was the rolling thunder thing.

which they have done, that a video, each one like a little mini keo.

I think the videos s needed to be promoted Better and intact. I think that they might have even benefit from having them premiere at a time like other events. And they chose not to do that, but they did IT.

And they got apple intelligence in your face in every single one of them, and they got coverage that had rolled out over time. And then the review, you know, people were talking about IT like, oh, then this happened on tuesday and this happened on wednesday. I like I feel like IT was a winner for them, that they had those things rather than having to just be A A single thing at.

The only issue is the logistics of IT in terms of talking to the press and that wasn't improve that they had their little uh creative event where people were election video and photos of the products they did zoom or its webbs webs, things with people like me um and then shift this product for a review like it's all fine, like they can do IT that way. I I think I think he was just an experiment, and I think he has some value, the iphone. I mean, look, I think if I were at apple, I would say the iphone event has to be about the iphone important iphone accessory and anything else that we want to get the spotlight of attention on that the iphone event bring.

So I think you've got to have some discipline, mayor, that's why attends to be the iphone and the apple watch. But if they've got something else that they want to put a spotlight on, it's a great event to do that. The problem is you are also going to be competing with the reports about the new iphone.

And so there's only so much you can do. I think if I were an apple watch person at apple, like would you rather be a part of the iphone event or have your own releasing video a few weeks later? I think my answer is to be you rather be in the iphone event because you're an iphone accessory and you want to be part of the new iphone story will be elegant.

Tally is a new iphone. It's the also the apple watch you want we you are apple, you want to reinforce in everybody's mind. Uh, I apple watches for iphone and if you are an iphone user, you should get an apple watch and you can reinforce that.

But anything that's extremist, anything that's a little bit kind of beyond, I would the more more than ever before I would kick all that stuff out because you can launch a product you're apple, you can launch product any time. So only use the iphone spotlight when IT really makes sense. And otherwise just take IT out, just do IT do with some other time and echoes for like airports, right?

Honestly, I know it's an iphone accessory, but I feel like ipod stuff might have worked Better as a stand alone announcement. Maybe not. Maybe it's maybe it's too small and IT needs. It's big, buddy.

I don't think anything works Better on its own than IT would with the iphone.

Well, everything is raised by being the iphone.

No.

I don't agree because they've came out with new max on iphone day. Nobody would care about the new max.

You have more people wouldn't are more people see them? Yeah.

they wouldn't care. Yeah, I think that's what I would say is they wouldn't care. So I I think that there is some discipline going on about what goes in and what goes out because others SE everything should be in the iphone event.

And I don't think that that's true. People that wouldn't care about that. Why would they care about them being announced on their own?

Or they wouldn't, but you would get more visibility because this is the problem. It's not just about reaching people who care. It's about reaching people if everybody cares about the iphone, but only some people care about the mac.

That means that if you announced iphone and mac, everybody cares about the iphone. So even the mac people care about the iphone and they're distracted from the mac, it's Better to do IT later. I think these these are the conversations that the apple marketing douteless had. Yes, right?

Yeah because we seen IT right, like they announced products alongside side the iphone when they knew and then they sometimes find their own place late iron.

right that's the spotlight thing when they are trying to like shine a spotlight on IT like a air power it's and you know anyway um but I don't think I could be but I don't think apple react that quickly. I think that apple was all already going to be experimenting with it's back roll out just as it's done the last few years where I did the thing in new york. And like they they're experimenting, they have new people in charge.

They're gone through some leadership changes uh, in marketing M P R over the last few years and they're ying stuff. And I think that's good. I think they should try this stuff.

They the pandemic really changed IT to, right? They were a little bit more stuck in a rut in terms of, you know, IT was for me, IT was a lot of Jason go to I mean, sometimes slide in new york, but a lot times you just go to Cooper tino, get your briefing. You live with your you know review unit in a bag and you go home and you start reviewing IT.

Like that's what I used to be. And after the the pandemic basically completely erode IT where I was. Like web x preaching ism will fedex you the products. And like now they have all the tools they can choose what they want to use.

And finally, we have a question that comes in from jay who wants to know, have you used the macintosh dynamic wallpaper and what do you think of IT?

Um I really like IT IT was in my review of zoia the um the uh classic mac imagery that can be a screen saver and IT can be dynamic wallpaper and I think it's really nice. I'm using IT on the computer on the macbook are um which is also of the computer working in studio b and when i'm not hearing the garage, I don't use IT because I am using a dumpling which is a great little APP that puts live I mean it's not like a video.

It's every ten minutes or something fifteen minutes but it's live satellite imagery of the a of the earth, in my case of the west coast in the pacific ocean. So I can see the the storm that is hit us right now on my this top. And that's also dynamic, but in a different way. But I do love IT, and I love the bright color.

How does IT work? Does IT like rotate often?

I think it's a setting um also when you lock and when you wake up IT IT goes back to that thing. If you're using the screensaver, the screensaver comes on and then when you wake up up the screensaver, sort of slides to a stop and that's your best top. O so there are a bunch of different ways that will cycle through when you can choose color, have to be random. It's really.

it's really fun. I'm gna try on on my second display as I just turned on now. And I think I got something like IT looks very new, tiny because it's Green that's funny OK. But there different ones.

There's orange and there a lot of different colors. And it's like this one where you're in a in like teach text and it's typing here to the crazy ones and kid. There's like the old mac control panel and it's just it's cute. It's it's a never let IT be said that apple doesn't do with musical and nostalgic things because that is .

both of those I want to do and I don't know um if you .

would like to send .

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