DARPA Scientist: "Aliens Genetically Engineered Humans” (Ft. John Blitch)
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This big bug came, like, through the screen door on our deck, and he's standing over me. His little triangle face opens up, and these jaws open up, and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me. You know, from my cheeks, my shoulders, and he's flinging it. What? And there's blood splashing everywhere.

He wanted me to know that they could rip me to shreds if they wanted to.

But they couldn't get to my soul. I'm here with my new friend, John Blitz. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitz. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitz. Lieutenant Colonel John Blitz. You have maybe the most interesting CV of anybody I've ever interviewed. There was this agreement that you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? You don't talk about the ETs that we've all seen. I think the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys who

who get spooked by really crazy, you know, entities that they encounter. A drop lands on my hand, on my handlebars, and then I realize it's red and it's blood. There is no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. And this is, and things get weird. I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck, what I thought was a fuel truck,

And so I kind of walk my bike up around it. And in the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt. Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel? Yeah. I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews.

I'm here with my new friend, John Blitch. It's an honor to have you. You have maybe the most interesting CV of anybody I've ever interviewed. You were a Delta Force. You worked at DARPA for a long time. You managed some very interesting programs there. You're a cognitive psychology expert and doctorate. Is that right? Well, I...

You know, I'll push back a little bit on the word expert. Sure. Because one of my favorite definitions of expert was from Dr. Ruth Mauer my first time through graduate school at the Colorado School of Mines. And she said, because my first thesis was I built an expert system to recommend which robot to pick to go into rubble. And she said, you know, the definition of expert?

I don't know. This was, you know, in front of the whole committee. And she goes, well, X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. So everybody cracked up. I was loving it, right? And so, you know, I don't claim to be an expert in anything. All I would say is that I've made a lot of mistakes and that's a good path to learning.

So you really came on the public scene around this recent UFO whistleblower revelation. We've really crossed a Rubicon of sorts in kind of UFO alien world where you have this guy, Jake Barber, who's went through kind of the combat control pipeline, Air Force Special Forces, ended up being kind of sheep dipped to use like an Intel military world term where he was sort of

erased as a person. Like, yeah, he was director of helicopter, you know, operations or whatever for, you know, a specific company, generic company. But really, he was retrieving UFOs. And he has come out with a story via me and Ross Colthart. And he talks about retrieving an egg-shaped craft and then an eight-gon, you know, octagonal craft. And you've come out in support of him. And

And you've had some incredibly interesting experiences yourself that came out in this Ross Coulthard interview. And so,

Do you want to talk about some of your own personal paranormal experiences? Sure, sure. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for letting me take off my academic jacket, right? I should have had like leather pads sewn on the sleeves or whatever and relax a little bit, hence the shirt, right? I love the shirt. So, you know, the interview with Ross was pretty serious, right? Because I was trying to...

help these guys and sort of support them so they didn't get whacked, right? I mean, that was deadly serious stuff. So now in this environment with you, I'm kind of excited to let the hair down a little bit with a little hair I have and have some fun. So, yeah, so we can get into some of those more –

open-minded speculation, wild speculation sorts of things. But, you know, there's an underpinning of science that's really important up underneath this. And so I want to push back a little bit. The Air Force doesn't use special forces. That's kind of an Army term. So Air Force is they have their ground forces.

operators in organizations called Special Tactics Squadrons. And so Jake, what I was able to verify was his track record in a pre-CCT training program. And so that's as far as I was able to validate via his records. But it's still very impressive. And what's important about that is

A lot of the military, whenever you, at least the way the Army did it, before we would go to scuba school, for example, Key West, the Army figured, you know, if we're sending these guys down to vacation land down there for three weeks, we're going to make them earn it. So it's going to be tough. And it was. It was one of the most difficult schools I've ever been through. Because most humans, I hate scuba.

I shouldn't say hate, but I am reluctant to put everything in one absolute declaration, all, right? But the vast majority of humans are deathly afraid of drowning. That's why waterboarding works, right? And so holding your breath underwater and forcing you to build up your CO2, it's not lack of oxygen. It's an excess of poison, the CO2 that builds up in your lungs.

That can put anybody into a frantic state pretty much. And that organization did that, the underwater operations group down there. So what we used to do is we would have pre-scuba class.

And that would kind of wash folks out so that before you spend all the money to send somebody all the way down to Key West in vacation land and absorb all those resources, you want to make sure they're going to pass. So typically, the pre-SCUBA, pre-Ranger, pre-CCT is usually more difficult.

And so the fact that Jake made it through that is a big feather in his cap. And you believe him that he was then diverted to this sort of, you know, an

anonymized program where he was working for specific contractors to retrieve non-human craft yes i i believe him uh again i i always make this distinction about what i know versus what i believe and you believe and oh yeah absolutely and it's not just based on him when we first met i i made all four of us but his full team of four and i was looking for inconsistencies

between those folks. It's kind of part of tradecraft that we're trained in, you know, to try to figure out if you're walking into an ambush. It was me against these four guys and they all could have, any one of them could have kicked my butt. Nevermind, four of them. Don't believe the Chuck Norris movies. I love Chuck Norris, but don't believe those movies. Because one person against...

Two is you're having a really tough time. You've got to be superhuman to even beat those odds. For my black belt test, I had to fight five guys.

other black belts at the same time. And I got my nose broken by my sensei's daughter, 18 years old. And it's a very humbling experience. So trying to see all four of those folks collaborate, I was looking for the slightest little glance between eyes between each other and never saw the slightest hint of a red flag.

So collectively they all validated, validated each other. And that if, if they fooled me, you know, certainly my ego is part of this, right? I don't want to believe that I can be fooled just like the vast majority of people don't want to believe that they can be fooled by flying saucers. Everybody can be fooled. Yeah. But you know, for me, it's, it's a strength of belief, right? So we were talking about probabilities and probabilistically, uh,

I'm going to assign my belief in Jake and his team collectively at three Sigma, right? So one Sigma's what? 66.666%. Two is 96.97%. So that's an A. Yeah. I'm talking a plus. Yeah. 99% sure that what he told me on my boat and all of our interactions thereafter is

I'm up there too on especially the prima facie story. And then the thing where I feel like even he would have maybe 1% plus doubt. I don't know where he's at, but like, was this egg-shaped craft non-human? To me, it's, you know, if it's just like the UAPTF, you know, is assessing it and then he's going off his own knowledge, which is clearly advanced when it comes to aviation, you know, and then it just looks very anomalous.

Still like, what is that thing? I don't know. You know, I'd be like, what do you think? Well, you know, I think the two most important things that I took away from that interview. Now, when I did my interview with Ross, I had not seen Jake's or Fred's or Don Paul's interview. So we were all and I understand why Ross probably wanted to do that. Yeah.

Just like you said, you want to kind of do things independently to make sure that there's no coordination, coordination, crosstalk. Right. And so I get that. But I was I was deeply emotionally moved by his tears. Yeah. I felt like I was possessed by the most emotions.

Beautiful spirit I've ever been possessed by. And when he was talking about that feeling of love coming from whatever the, whatever the craft it was, I don't think it was coming from the egg. He was telling that that was the, the eight gone octagon shit crap. Um, so that was extremely powerful, powerful and extremely important. Yes. That, you know, this independence day alien invasion, uh,

you know, rhetoric and narrative, we really need to squash that down. And then the second most important thing, or actually, I think that was the second most important thing because of the viability and so forth. And I picked up on that when we were out on my boat. You know, we originally, I was trying to convince them to come forward, help convince them. But the most important thing was his

refutation of ontological shock. And he said, and I asked him immediately after I saw him called and said, Hey, can I use that quote in my book? If I ever get this damn book published, um, I don't believe in ontological shock. I believe in ontological relief. And I couldn't agree with him more than I think, you know, current society is look, um,

We are sick and tired. We have lost all faith and confidence in our government, not just our government, but the world's governments across the board. So we're way ready for this, right? And so that was my most important takeaway from what he said. And, you know, the other aspect of that that's kind of interesting, hypothetically, you know, since we're happy speculation here, right?

you know, maybe that craft itself could have been a living being, right? You know? You hear that. Yeah. From time to time. So the woo-woo literature, you know, in my two libraries, my peer-reviewed academic literature on one side of my basement and then my woo-woo literature on the other side, those are really starting to overlap now. Yeah. You know? And so there's plenty, plenty of...

data in the woo-woo literature that supports that these craft may be living entities. Well, let's get into that because you've had experiences since you were a kid and I want to get into those core experiences as well. But

Just the idea that these might be living beings. I find it so interesting. People are so indexed on like, was it non-human or was it human? And then what if you see, what if you get what you want and you see that high fidelity, you know, 8K video of a thing in a hangar or you step inside the thing?

What does that get you? What you have no idea what you're looking at at that point. And so to the extent you've been studying this stuff for decades because you call yourself part of the invisible college, you know, what what what are we looking at? What's the greater ontology or worldview or like metaphysics that comes with aliens, which have to just be like the tip of the iceberg?

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Yeah, that's, and it is a big iceberg, right? Because all we see is the very tip, right? So it's, it's a small portion, but ontologically speaking, uh, based on not just the peer reviewed stuff and the woo woo, but the intersections between those, uh, my belief is that we are a, um,

An up-and-coming species in a galactic society teeming with life. And it's simply a numbers game, right? So Webb Telescope, when I was growing up, and you look at all those little dots, and I'm fascinated. And the little dots are, you think they're stars. You're told they're stars. So those, oh, those must be solar systems.

And then as we go from Hubble to Webb and we realize, whoa, wait a minute. Those aren't solar systems. Those are galaxies. So a galaxy with billions of solar systems in them and then the dust that you see in the background, those are galaxies. Yeah. Right? And so it's just mind-blowing. Yeah. The magnitude of that. Right? And so the likelihood –

And then when you take the age of all this, our, what, 4 billion years here, right? And you extrapolate from that, it is a ridiculous notion that we are alone.

So I agree with that. And you have the Drake equation, the Fermi paradigm, all these things mathematically pointing to, you know, it being Occam's razor that we're not alone. You know, the most likely answer is that we're not alone. And simultaneous to that, how do we know that our cosmological models are right at all? Because.

we're probably, our physical models of the universe are always wrong at any given time. They've just always been wrong historically. So they're probably wrong now. And I think about like a rocket that's two degrees off course, and then it ends up, it ends up 99 degree, you know, it's like air propagation that ends up like way off course because it's two degrees off course. And then that multiplies down the line. It's not linear. So like what, what if that's,

true with our models of physics where our understanding of you know the microscopic might be way off like we we can we can't figure out quantum gravity for example there are like issues with our understanding of the physical universe on like a really small scale so given those issues wouldn't you end up with a scaling problem in physics itself where our cosmological models end up

like this crazy kind of glued together patchwork quilt. And we're probably so off on like even, you know, a lot of that stuff. And yes, you can see some of it, obviously with James Webb and Hubble and that sort of thing. But yeah,

I mean, who knows? Like you have this idea of an observer dependent universe, like the Wheeler thing or, you know, delayed choice stuff. And if any of that, if that, or like these, you know, the anthropic principle, you know, the idea that like, you know, maybe physics and the universe itself is comported to our, uh, perceptual filters, you know, then like,

What, what do we know at all about anything? Like, it's just like extremely, you know, complicated. Like maybe, I don't know. What do you think? Well, so, uh, let me back up to the Fermi paradox, which I claim is absolute BS. I love the guy. I respect the science. Yeah.

But it is based on a very flawed assumption, which is, okay, if there really is this cosmic galactic society, where are they? Right? Why aren't they landing on the White House lawn?

Well, the underlying assumption with all of that is that they want to reveal themselves from a special forces parachute behind enemy lines and study a society and then pick them, choose them, and then train them to rise up against their own tyrannical government. We don't want to be found. And so my overlay of my bias is that

Sometimes they want to be found. Sometimes they don't, just like we did. Sometimes we want to be seen blowing up a bridge to show that that country cannot defend its own people, right?

Or maybe we stay behind and we get some of their own folks to do it. So it's part of this influence. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's also, you know, you have like the three body problem, this great Chinese sci-fi trilogy. And in that you have the dark forest analogy and this idea that it's actually adaptive often for aliens to hide themselves or to infiltrate and to do, you know, sort of deceptive scheming and not to just like land on the white house lawn. Right. And,

especially if you're dealing with this like sort of, you know, unevolved, like if humans are like not where we need to be and you present yourself and you're seen as this kind of foreign invader or whatever, like that's not going to go well. Right. So you'd rather just like incept them with ideas, kind of subtly manipulate them or whatever, but go about your business. And it's actually adaptive from a,

survivalistic standpoint to just not even show yourself, not reveal yourself. Well, and you can totally invalidate, if you're a behavioral scientist, right, you can totally invalidate all of your experimental results, trash your own experiment by revealing yourself, right? And so we have this notion of informed consent. We were talking about this last night, about the, maybe there's a galactic IRB, Institutional Review Board,

That, that. That's really fascinating. So it's almost like, yeah, you can't bias the experiment, so you can't show yourself. That's, that's so interesting. Do you think that we are, humans are an experiment, some sort of genetic experiment? Um, my belief is that absolutely, absolutely. From, from what occurred with me. Yeah. And again, a lot of the, um, experiencer, uh,

Yeah. Is strongly suggestive of that. And a lot of us, I don't want to speak for all experiencers, all abductees. Abductees are a subgroup of experiencers. There are plenty of people that have interactions. Yeah. Right. That are positive and, and Kumbaya. Yeah. And good for you. Yeah. There are others of us that have been terrified. Right. And feel like lab rats. However, in retrospect, you know, I was young, uh,

And combative. Yeah. And angry. Yeah. I have a whole chapter about the angry young man when I talk about, you know, breaking hockey sticks and baseball bats in my backyard because I was so upset because I was paralyzed and violated and raped, right? And all those aspects of it. Yeah. And so I can't deny that maybe that was a motivation to become a fighter. Yeah.

Yeah. And end up in the line of work that I ended up in, in the hospital. It is this extremely common trope in abduction experiences where they say, you know, gametes are collected often in unceremonious ways. So, you know, sperm and eggs are,

And there's it's often sexual in nature and genetic material or tissue is sometimes collected. And that's just super common fact. Even going back to Betty and Barney Hill, one of the kind of proverbial famous cases in the U.S., I think 1961 in New Hampshire, Barney Hill afterwards very reluctantly admitted that

sperm was basically extracted from him. And, you know, it's this probably hard thing to process. You look at the free Edgar Mitchell studies on abduction. So, you know, some of these larger databases, like a very high percentage involved this sort of, you know, tissue sampling, gamete collection. So it almost points to us being, yeah, some sort of experiment, genetic experiment. Yeah, absolutely. So personally, I don't have any...

any recollection of anything sexual with any of my experiences, but that doesn't limit me from being compassionate towards other people who have. Yeah. Um, so when you say raped, you just mean your space was totally violated and yeah, a violation of, well, any manipulation of your body without your consent or right. Arguably that's of that, of that nature. Uh, so, so, uh,

There are a lot of folks that feel that way. But for me, in my experience, the most, the terrifying one, it was, I consider it a gift because it woke me up to the notion that, you know, this body is just a soul housing mechanism, right? It's a biological thing.

craft or vessel right with which you learn right and if you make some really stupid mistakes like i did and almost lost my my leg um then it's it's a mechanism to learn through right and so this is so it it was very much a gift but as a youngster a combative commando where i was all about

you know, violence for justifiably for good reasons, right? I'm going to, we're going to break in and rescue these folks, right? And if we have to take another human life, then so be it. That's a necessary evil for the, for the, as Spock would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, right? So the, the few bad folks, if we get a whack them to get the good folks out, that's, that's the way my mind works. So I believe that they are,

had to penetrate my resistance on the same level. So they had to use violence to come after me, to wake me up to that whole notion. So overall, the experience is an enormously positive one. But when you're young, you don't realize that, right? It's kind of like as a parent,

You got to watch your kid fail. You know, like they're going to, they're going to touch that hot stove. You've told him a hundred times. All right, let her do it. See what happens. Okay, sweetie, I told you. Right. And that's just part of the, part of the process sometimes. So, so that's the way I felt about it. So John, you had your own alien experience.

Um, yeah, yeah, I think. And, and I can put that into the knowledge side versus the belief side. So I talk about, you know, how I don't remember being born. So all I can do is believe that I was born in Idaho Falls, um, in 1959, because I don't have a memory of that. Right. But I do remember, uh,

walking all those punishment hours at West Point, right? So I know that I got in a lot of trouble at Woops, which is my favorite ding-ding for that place because it's something I said almost every day, you know, Mike Levy here, right? Oops, screwed up again, right? And so the two memories that I cannot dismiss as dreams are,

or sleep paralysis, and we can get into that, the science behind that, are a missing time mountain bike ride and a terror-filled night after which I woke up with bruises. And so the mountain bike ride essentially was at least five hours of missing time, if not more. And so I'd gone for a ride on my mountain bike,

And I, on the way back, it was a, it was a, it wasn't a very physically demanding ride. Uh, it was in, uh, 1995. It was right after the Oklahoma city bombing. And I was in this mode of, you know, riding up into nature and meditating to try to kind of come to grips with some of the traumatic stuff I saw there, you know, um, and

A young lady had to get her leg amputated just to get her out of the rubble. A lot of other stuff. I tell a story about when I first came into the Murrah building through the back, which was still intact. There was a parking garage back there. And I came upon this wheelbarrow. And right as I was, you know, I'd already signed in. I was allowed to volunteer since I had TSSCI clearances.

And because it was a crime scene, you know, they were really keeping all the volunteers away unless you had a secret clearance because it was crime scene. Right. And so they had trust of that. So anyway, so I was all excited and ready to start helping out. And, uh, so I walked up to this wheelbarrow and I heard this, this voice from behind me from the entrance, you know, scream stop. And so I frozen my trash right as I was about to grab it. And, uh,

Because I thought the wheelbarrow must be being used to get rid of the debris. And somebody had just filled it up and hadn't gotten over there. And then I realized that, you know, there was a stench. And it took a little bit to get through my mask. And it was a smell of rotting flesh. It was horrible. And then I happened to glance up and there was this beautiful purple thing.

uh, chiffon material that I, it took me a few seconds to realize that that was a human body. And that was, she had been blown up into, uh, rebar steel reinforced concrete. And the reason the wheelbarrow was there was to collect her entrees. So there were, there was a lot of human tissue and a pool of blood. And so that's why the voice didn't want me to move that.

So that stuck with me over the years. Yeah. So when I got back, so I was dealing with stuff like that. And so I took this mountain bike ride, pretty standard for me on a weekend, right? Go get a workout, meditate up on top of this beautiful park called Daniel's Park. Still there. Very built up now since then over 30 years now. Where's Daniel's Park? Daniel's Park is south. Let me see. Southwest.

south-southwest of Denver. So it was sort of a little yuppie neighborhood that we had bought a house in. And it was very remote at that time. Now it's its own city. But at that time, it was just this old ranch. So it happened to be co-located with an ancient Indian burial ground. And so I have...

a bit of Native American blood in me. My great-grandfather took a Sioux wife when he was traveling west as part of, I don't know if it was the Gold Rush or what. So always very respectful of Native American cultures. Not to mention I saw Jeremiah Johnson and what happened to the folks when they violated that Indian Barrier Ground. Didn't go well, right? Maybe we could talk about that in this notion of

you know, advanced cultures meeting less advanced cultures and usually doesn't go good for the less advanced ones, right? Yep. Anyway, so I had ridden by it several times and just noted it. Not a big deal. But this time, for some reason, and I still, to this day, I don't understand why, I turned around and suddenly felt...

an obsession that I had to go in. So I grabbed my mountain bike and I climbed up over this fence, got on the other side, and I climbed into the saddle and I was going to ride down. I was like, nope,

That's not respectful. You don't ride a bike in a cemetery. Matter of fact, you'll get fined. You'll get thrown out of any national cemetery. You try to ride a bike in Arlington, good luck on that. You will do some time in a slammer, literally throw up because it's just so disrespectful to all the veterans, whatever. So I started walking and then I felt a drip on my nose. And again, scientifically with Occam's razor, trying to slice through anything, even now,

But I wasn't sweating. Why? It wasn't hot. I was coming downhill. If anything, I was a little bit, you know, cooled. So why am I sweating? And a drop lands on my hand as I'm on my handlebars. And then I realize it's red and it's blood. I'm like, oh, crap. I got a bloody nose. But it wasn't just like a drip every few seconds. It suddenly became a gusher.

I'm like, what the hell is this? I mean, I didn't fall off my bike. We'd been living here for a year. And so it wasn't like I'm suddenly dry. I'm thinking of all these mechanisms, right?

And so there are a lot of experiencers and abductees who do this to ourselves. We try to scientifically dismiss it. Randall Nickerson, one of John Mack's patients, and I talked about this at length, that we don't want to believe it. So we try to categorize ourselves some other way. So I'm trying to convince myself that

I hadn't fallen off my bike. There was no reason for me to have this gushing bloody nose. But I laid down and I was out immediately. Like it didn't take more than a second to me be unconscious. And I woke up freezing. I woke up shivering, which is common. You know, the front range of Colorado is pretty desert-like. And so after the sun set,

You know, it wasn't, it might've been, I don't know, 60 degrees or whatever, but without moving, you know, um, and it, and I, I felt like I had bonked somehow, you know, that I had reached a level of exhaustion, which didn't make sense for a half hour, 45 minute bike ride. It didn't make any sense at all. So I ended up, uh,

in this anomalous behavior. So as a behavioral scientist, I know what is normal for most folks, and I certainly know what's normal for me. And it didn't make any sense that I would haul that bike up to this mesa where this bright light was shining, a bunch of bright lights.

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since I was attending the Colorado School of Mines that it must have been a drilling rig, right? And it didn't occur to me why they must have gotten some permit to drill in this Indian burial ground. I can't imagine how they did that, but let's go check it out. Excuse me. So I was a moth to the flame and I dragged that mountain bike through all the scrub oak, scratching me and I get up on top there and this is, and things get,

Uh, weird. It was already kind of weird, but now it's really weird because I have this fuzzy memory of a fuel truck when I thought it was a fuel truck. And so I kind of daintily kind of walk my bike up around it. And I look up into the cab of the fuel truck at about, I don't know, 20 degree angle maybe or whatever. And then the cab of this fuel truck is this guy with a red plaid shirt and

And at that point, I become very anxious and afraid. And I turn around and I walk my bike back around the back of that fuel truck. And I sense that there's a clearing over in front of the fuel truck with a bunch of other lights or whatever. So I'm imagining, you know, some sort of

drilling operation. You know, maybe there's two or three vehicles over there with the big, you know, drill or whatever, but I don't have any, I don't have any crisp memory of that, which is just weird. Um, and so I'm going back through the scrub brush. I know that there's kind of a clearing and there appears to be a road over there, but rather than walking my bike over to the road, I keep walking it through the scrub brush. It makes no sense.

But I'm growing, I'm very afraid of those lights and that area over there. So I skirt around. As soon as I get to an open enough segment of the road that I can, I jump on that bike and I am pedaling to save my life. And I am just terrified, screaming as fast as I can go. I go down this hill and I see a light on at a ranch house.

And I'm thinking to myself, okay, I've left whatever that was back behind me. Now I start thinking I need to call Cindy, my wife, and let her know because, I mean, it's not like a half hour after sunset. It is several hours after sunset. And so I'm just going to stop in on this ranch house and ask them to use the phone. You know, this is 1995. There's no cell phones, right?

So, I go down this, you know, it's kind of a long dirt driveway. And I stop about halfway down because I realize there's no lights on. I'm thinking, you know, at worst, I might interrupt him in the middle of dinner. No lights on. So, then I realize, oh, wow, it must be really late. And so, I stop. I turn around.

And I go back out to the main dirt road, and I pretty much coast most of the way back to this hardball, this highway called Highway 85, right? It's a four-lane highway and very little traffic, which is another surprise. I mean, if it's just after dark, why isn't there any traffic? I mean, there might have been one car every five minutes or so.

And so finally I'm starting to feel safe because I'm on this pavement and there's people around and I'm like, okay, all right. So, and then,

It, that's when I, I hit the wall. It was, it was a full out bonk, kind of like heartbreak hill in the Boston marathon. And you're like, I just ran into a wall so I could barely stay on my bike. So I'm cranking, you know, one, two, three, I set up a rhythm and I climbed the shallow hill and I take a turn and I see this 7-Eleven. So I stopped the 7-Eleven and I'm exhausted and super dehydrated.

So I go in, I get off my bike, I see a police car, police cruiser in front. And as I'm walking past the police cruiser, windows are down, it's still fairly warm. And I thought I heard my name as I walked by, but I didn't stop. You know, tradecraft kicks in and I just, I'm slow for a little bit and I just open the door and go in. And I get these three 32 ounce Gatorade, orange Gatorade jugs.

And I downed one of them before I even got to the cash register and threw a 20 on the counter and walked out. How old are you at this point? Let me see. So this was 95. So I was born in 59. So what's that? 30? 36? Yeah, ish. Yeah. So...

And I'm in pretty good shape. And are you in Special Forces at this time? No, I had just finished seven years in Special Forces, five command tours spread over...

Seven years. The first of that was as a Persian II missile guy. And then the final four were in special ops. So I felt like I was in pretty good shape. So get your Gatorade. Get my Gatorade. Well, the other one I just put in the trash as I was walking out. Cop gets out of the car, comes up, says, are you Mr. Blitch? Yeah.

And I said, yes, sir, I am. And I was about to ask him why. Am I in trouble or whatever? He goes, okay, well, I just want to let you know your wife called in a missing persons report. And so if it's okay with you, I'm going to radio in that we have found you. And, you know, would you like a ride home? Now, the ego...

says, hell no, you never accept a ride from anybody. I'm going to carry my own rucksack all the way home, blah, blah, blah. But what I really said was, hell yeah, I'd love a ride home. And I was flipping exhausted. So he threw it back and I go home. And that was that conscious memory. I don't even remember going in the house and climbing into bed. I don't remember anything. But I do remember a dream that I thought was a dream.

around that same time, but it, it wasn't, it was an anomalous dream. You know, I've come to realize, uh, those, the differences between crisp memories, right. And these fuzzy memories. And so then I had this memory, this dream that I thought had occurred like weeks later, or at least several days later where this, this big bug, uh,

came like through the screen door on our, on our deck. This is a, a deck that's three stories up above the backyard and there's no stairs. So it's only, you can only get to it through the screen door off of the master bedroom and just walks right up through that. And he's standing over me and he's,

He's conveying to me telepathically. What does the bug look like? Big grasshopper, big praying mantis thing, big eyes and kind of triangle head. And so, but I wasn't, I wasn't afraid. It was similar to like close encounters of the third kind mantis.

I don't remember any mantis. I thought there was a bit, maybe it was a Mandela effect or something. But anyway, keep going. All I remember is the little gray guys and maybe a tall, skinny gray guy. Yeah, I thought there was a tall mantis in the back. I don't remember any mantis in that. But he was chastising me. And he was sort of lecturing me in sort of a condescending way.

instructional way commanding me to stop wiggling around. And he's telling me, look, you're this body that you've got. It's, it's nothing but a soul container and we can't do anything to hurt that or steal it or damage it. We can do a lot of damage to your body, but

If we want to, we don't want to. We're trying to help you. So quit squirming around and we're going to do some tune-ups here. We're going to work on it a little bit. What do you think the tune-ups were? How were they trying to help you? I don't know. And I never got that level of detail. All I got was, don't be afraid. There's nothing to be afraid of. We're trying to help you. And as an example of how bad it can get,

He opens his, his little triangle face opens up and these jaws open up and he starts tugging chunks of flesh off of me, you know, from my cheeks, my, my shoulders and he's flinging it and there's blood spatter and everything. And it's, and it should have been absolutely terrifying. Were you bleeding? And I felt the tug on my face.

But she's ripping skin off your face. Yeah, I felt the tug. What? And there's blood splashing. And the whole time, he's like, see, this is what we could do to you. Easily.

but we're not doing that. Afterwards, were you bloody due to that? No, never any indication of anything. This is like mental imagery that I'm receiving. Okay. Um, so this doesn't feel like a physical. No, it did feel like it. It felt like he wanted me to feel. He wanted to simulate that you could. Right. He wanted, he wanted, he wanted me to know that they could. Yeah. Rip me to shreds if they wanted to, but.

but they couldn't get to my soul. And even if I died in that process, I'm going to come back. There's a soul that's going to come back. And who knows? I might come back as one of them and come at them. So that was all that in a very intense moment, that lesson that just quit squirming around and let us get this freaking done. Okay. And then boom, I was out. That was it.

So that was what made that so powerful scientifically is sleep paralysis doesn't last for five hours. Yeah. And sleep paralysis doesn't result in my wife getting in her soccer mom van and taking my two daughters and traveling up and down that ridgeline for hours looking for me. Wow. Right? Right.

And so we can get into more sleep paralysis in a little bit. So there was, you know. Did you have any after effects physically? Did you have any marks, any implants? What is up, Alchemist? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never-before-seen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK.

or a remote viewing debate between Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WAP. I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarfati and former American alchemist Science Bob McGuire.

Head over to WAP.com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, to become a member today. That's WAP.com slash J-E-S-S-E-M-I-C-H-E-L-S. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of today's episode. Not that I know of, but here's a really interesting aspect to this phenomenon. Is that pretty much across the vast majority of cases that I've read about, um,

There is a common factor that I like to coin or I like to capture in the term irrational ambivalence. And what happens to a lot of experiencers is they have these anomalous events that occur and that are independently corroborated by a next-door neighbor, your family, your loved ones, your teammates.

And they're like, don't you remember this or that? Don't you remember that you walked back into the foxhole? Don't you remember that we were looking for you? Don't you remember the cop? And there's often a like, yeah, but so what? And so it's an irrational response to something that should be at the forefront of all of your behavior. You should be looking into that. I should have been checking.

for my cheeks or whatever. Nothing. I did tell my wife about that dream and she was like, yeah, okay. And it was this ambivalence, this laissez-faire attitude towards it all. So it's almost as if in a hypnotic suggestion, you're told in many cases, we are told, don't worry about this. You won't need to remember this.

And I think it's an act of compassion so that we can lead relatively normal lives after we are let out of the cage, right? The lab rats get

released him to the backyard right and go live your life that's what yeah mario woods stationed at uh ellsworth air force base in south dakota he had an experience where he was abducted he's a mutual friend he's fine i know you guys are friends as well and he said that the the beings came up to them they kept saying do not fear do not fear that was like this recurring kind of trail words do not fear travel through my body like a vibration

like a hiss, but I kept hearing over and over, do not fear, do not fear.

uh, do not fear. That's wow. Do you have a sense? Cause he says he was, he became interested in things after that experience that he wasn't prior. And he realizes he's like, I know this sounds kind of weird, but he's like, I got very interested in pyramids. Is there something like that for you where you became newly interested in certain topics? Uh, did you have a mission that you didn't prior? Um,

I didn't become interested in pyramids, not right away. But I did change my behavior that in a way that was reported to me by my wife and my daughters, which was I suddenly wouldn't squash a bug or use a fly swatter. I would go to the kitchen, grab a glass,

Tell my daughters, don't squish them. I would escort these bugs out of the house. Specifically all animals or bugs?

uh, uh, pretty much all animals. Um, because I was going to say if it was the bug thing, then it might've been the mantis specifically that you felt an affinity for, right? But it was like dogs too. You felt like more loving towards, or, or was it bugs? That's a, that's a good question. And I don't, my, my, my first wife passed away in 2014. I'm sorry. Um,

a wonderful and angelic soul. And I, sometimes I, I wonder if my current wife is her reincarnated. Wow. Uh, or if there was some, cause they're so similar, wonderful, absolutely wonderful people. Um, and so I, I, I should ask my daughters that if my attitude towards our Labrador retriever, um, changed at all. I don't, I don't, I don't have a conscious memory of anything changing, but,

But I do remember the bug behavior, the insect behavior, which is really interesting. And up to that point, I mean, I thought like the vast majority of humanity or our society in the mid-90s, all aliens were the little gray guys. All aliens looked just like Steven Spielberg represented in Close Encounters. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so I was totally unprepared.

for anything looking like a bug. And so that reinforced my perspective at the time that it was just a dream. So, um, so that was one, what I call an irrefutable case that I cannot scientifically dismiss as a dream because a dream doesn't result in your wife searching for you for hours and calling the cops. Who is the guy in the flannel, the red flannel? Yeah. Um, yeah.

I was not prepared to talk about this in previous interviews, but since we're in speculation world here and I can let my guard down a little bit, and I thank you for that. I thank you for this environment to be able to do that. So I do want to talk about a little bit of the science behind this, if it's okay. So after I told that story on a previous interview,

And I've been coached and cautioned many times, look, don't look at the social media. Don't look at any of the responses to this. Don't go back and look at it. And so for the longest time, I didn't. But I did, you know, take a peek and probably the most vicious trolls ever.

that were coming after me was like, this guy claims to be a psychologist and he doesn't even know what sleep paralysis is. So for all you trolls out there, I love you and I'm going to push back in a loving manner as if we were on opposite football teams, okay? Yes, I know a lot about sleep paralysis as part of my training.

Sleep paralysis lasts a few seconds, maybe a few minutes. It does not last for five hours. No, something would be very wrong if it lasted for five hours. It does not. In fact, it feels longer than it is. I think the felt sense of it is like that it's

Half hour, an hour, but it's really splits its seconds often. Yeah. There's a lot of time distortion in human memory. Yeah. And that's also correlated with risk. And...

Um, so if you, if you do one of these adventure rides, like a roller coaster or you get dropped, uh, it seems like time slows down, but that makes sense evolutionarily. Right. Because you want to know all the details when you're fighting that saber tooth tiger, you need to know every single detail because if next time you're gonna, you're gonna have a chance at finding them off, you're

Maybe you should slow it down and recognize all that. So it makes a lot of sense evolution early. So sleep paralysis does not explain five hours of absence. It doesn't explain Travis Walton coming back five days later with a full beard. Right.

It doesn't explain bruises, right? It doesn't explain Terry Lovelace's cell phone health data that shows he climbed six stories in less than a minute in a house that has one story. There's no stairs in his house. So, so.

I thank you for your opinion, but sleep paralysis is BS. It does not apply to the vast majority of abduction phenomena. So, John, he was the guy in the red flannel. So, now that we talked about the science and Occam's razor slicing through sleep paralysis, I did have a hypnotic regression session.

So from science of how much of what you just recalled was from that hypnotic regression person. Okay. So you remember all that's all in living memory, conscious memory. Okay, cool. Right. Yeah. And so I want to, uh, invoke, uh, real scientists, John Mack, Don, Don Derry, um, uh,

David Spiegel, senior and junior, who came up with the Spiegel eye roll test to determine how hypnotizable folks are. That's a rough measure, and then you go into more detailed measures. And Andrew Humerman. I mean, you can talk to a lot of folks about the science behind hypnosis. Well, you gave me a really interesting fact last night. You said there are two guys on death row right now in Texas, in the state of Texas,

And they were convicted due to hypnotic regression, retrieving details under hypnosis. And that is considered super valid by the state. It's across many counties. The vast majority of our legal system is at the county level. And we're compiling a study right now to determine what percentage of counties across the entire U.S.,

allow hypnotic regression evidence to be admissible in court. And so I don't want to mislead you into thinking that that was the only bit of evidence that convicted those folks and put them on death row, but it was some of the evidence that's in there. And so the way Andrew Heumann describes hypnosis is it's a

It's a period of relaxed focus, which those sound counterintuitive, right? But it is definitely and verifiable by EEG and a variety of neurocrisp, objective, empirical, neurophysiological measures. You know when you're in that role.

And so, so what it does is it allows the, the hippocampus to stitch back together. I was, I was giving the analogy yesterday about the, the RAM, you know, random access memory being stored out on the hard drive. And so that's what the hippocampus does. Those two little horns in the, in the,

down near the brainstem basal ganglia area of your brain up underneath. And then the cortex up here. So I used to use my fist as my model for, for my cadets. And I would have them stroke the back of their parietal area and the motor control and do punches and all the rest of this. But the, the hippocampal regions deep inside, right? And so that's where a lot of your memory starts to consolidate and get, and migrates from,

from that random access area out to the cortical structures. And so what you can do with hypnosis is when you save that Word document or you save that Excel spreadsheet, and just this is the best model I've gotten. There's probably some holes in it, but it's the best we got. You're right. So when you save that Word document, it doesn't get saved in contiguous sectors on that hard drive.

They're spread all over the place because you just got to spread it to where it's open, right? If you delete it, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they're spread all over the place. And so if the hippocampus gets damaged or interfered with, and it is a very vulnerable organism.

sub-organ of the brain to pharmacological chemical interdiction, right? And so if that hippocampus region gets tampered with, you can start to disrupt its recall. So it's got to go out to this file allocation table, the FAT, an exFAT, a file allocation table when you're formatting your hard drive. That's what that means. So

When it's going to this file allocation table, kind of like the table of contents, it says, I want to go to chapter three, section one. There's nothing there. Oh, crap. Well, let me see. I'll go to chapter two, section five. Oh, we got that. So put little bits and pieces back together. And so what hypnosis is really good for is if you have a memory already,

and it's problematic, and you're not sure that some of the details are fuzzy, it can sharpen those details. The rape victim can, through hypnosis and relaxing you and suppressing all of the anxiety and the fear and the anger and all of those deep emotional interference that'll obfuscate the collection of this,

and interfere with stitching those memories back together. And if all you want to do is focus on that license plate, boom, and you can't. And so, so that license plate number isn't going to,

that person all by itself, but it can end up being the critical piece of information that places that person at that crime scene doing that sort of activity. And so that's that context. So all of that to come back to the red plaid shirt. It was a uniform. It was a red uniform being worn by a bug. Also mantis?

Another mantis or the same one. I'm not sure. I now believe. Well, probably a different one. No, I now believe that that was the same one and that this dream, the separate dream did not happen a few days later.

It was all in that same. But in the second encounter with the Mantis, did it presumably removed its uniform or was it also in a red uniform? No, I, I, I think he had that uniform on, but it was only, it was, and this is where it sounds weird. I know, but, uh, I'm, you know, with all the risks that all these other guys have taken, you know, um, I,

I'd feel a need to climb out on the limb myself and share this info. I mean, it's, it's an important aspect of it. So the, the uniform was primarily on the backside, um, kind of covering the grasshopper wings, you know, the front, it needed its hands to do whatever it's got to do to my body and it, and it's jaws or whatever. And so there, there was a, there was like a, a collar to it and there was red on the back and,

And that's, you know, we talk a lot about screen memories, right, and how these can be imposed. And this is the downside to hypnosis is if somebody is very hypnotizable,

Yes, you can cause them to confabulate and make connections between things that might not necessarily be there. But the fact of the matter is that all hypnosis, Leo Sprinkle told me this on my first regression session. He wasn't the one that did this with this Mantis thing.

All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. You cannot hypnotize somebody that doesn't want to be hypnotized. And that's well established in all the scientific literature. Uh, what you can do is get somebody to relax enough to focus enough, uh, in, in recall. And so, uh, so, so I now believe that that, that event was all the same event. And so, um,

This tall being standing over me might have happened right there at that fuel truck. And I don't have any further details about the fuel truck or about the lights or anything else. But that red shirt was this collared uniform.

on this thing. Wow. It's so fascinating. I mean, there's so many questions, I think. I hope the audience mulls this over and thinks about it, and I will as well because it's such an interesting... Was that the only alien abduction experience you've had? The other one was much later, 20 years later-ish, 2013, and it was when I woke up with the three bruises on the underside of my...

bicep and the one bruise on my tricep. And what I didn't tell Ross about that as I intimated, I sort of indicated that there were some other sort of mysterious circumstances with that effort. And so I'll share that with you, that details. And this was no hypnosis involved. This is conscious memory that I have right now. I've never gone back on a regression to remember any of that.

But I do remember standing out on my deck of my house where I had this really cool house looking down onto Fort Collins. Anyway, my next door neighbor, his name was Andy, great guy, two sons, fabulous family. And I had about a half acre house.

between my house and his house. And he wanted to buy it from me because he didn't want somebody, he didn't want me to chop it up and sell it to somebody else, put a house between us and ruin his view of the gorgeous Rocky Mountains. I totally get that. I didn't want somebody to do that either. So he was going to turn it into a mountain bike course for his sons or whatever. And I remember standing on my deck and looking up

And there was a, it looked like a miniature hurricane. It was a very dark cloud with a swirl around it and a dark hole in the middle, kind of a, kind of a, like the eye of the storm. And I remember him yelling over to me, are you, cause we're both looking up and he looks over at me and he goes, are you seeing what I'm seeing? I go, yeah, that right. So I'd point up, he goes, yeah. And it looks like, it looks like the eye of it is right over the spot between our two houses. Yeah.

And then, so I looked off in the distance towards Loveland, which is another city south of Fort Collins. And it's blue sky down there. So that was only maybe, I don't know, I should go back and look at a map, maybe five or 10 miles, something like that. And then I look back to the north and there's blue sky over there, about the same distance around. So it looked like maybe, I don't know, a diameter of a 20 mile-ish storm straight over our houses.

And again, here we go again, right? Irrational ambivalence. We both go back inside, right? Instead of me going over to chat with him like we did all the time about mountain biking, about he was a former Army guy who was in the honor company there that used to do all the funerals at Arlington National Cemetery. Great dude. And so it would have made all the sense in the world for us to just sit there

maybe have another beer and talk about it, right? At least until it started raining, nothing. We both went back inside instead of doing the neighborly chat type of thing we've done hundreds of times. And I remember later on, fairly soon thereafter, going into this sort of OCD behavior that is very common in the literature. So if

If you read any of Kathy Martin's books, Yvonne Smith, all the John Mack stuff, right? A lot of these folks that have spent their lives researching the abduction phenomenon find this very, very common that I had to close all the drapes and not just have them closed. I had to, sometimes I would tape it.

I would tape the drapes. How whack is that? Right. I couldn't afford to have the slightest little sliver of a gap because I didn't want those big black, you know, almond communion eyes from Whitley Strieber's book staring at me through that window. And I would check them and recheck them, you know, block all the doors, et cetera. Um, I didn't find out until much later when my dad passed away, uh,

That, uh, he would, he would go check all those guns. He would, he would make sure his big old 44 Magnum was loaded. Right. All this type of stuff. It's a, it's an inherent thing. And then, so, um, I remember I resolved myself. I knew they were coming. It's this feeling you get chilled down your spot. And I'm like, you know what? I know I'm helpless now.

And this is part of the terror, right? I'm helpless. I know there's nothing I can do. So screw it. I'm just going to go to bed. You guys just get it over with and let's, and, and let me get back to my life. Right. Next morning, I wake up, I'm in my skivvies. I go straight downstairs. Uh, I had shut down my, my rescue robotics team, my second nonprofit laid everybody off because of my, my female. That's another long, crazy story. But, um,

I went and got this video camera that I hadn't used in five years and fish it out, put a battery in it, and I come upstairs and I immediately start videotaping my arm, the inside of my arm, because of those three bruises. Why would I even know they were there? That's a weird thing. And why is it only on one arm, not the other arm? And why did I immediately go...

Right. And it's almost as if I knew that I had had this post-hypnotic suggestion and I wanted to, to take the picture before, um, before I forgot. Right. It's like, I'm trying to outsmart them, get ahead of them. Right. It's the weirdest thing. What, what did they, what was the core experience? Like what did they do to you in this case? I don't remember. Oh, so you don't remember that. I don't remember any of the core experience. Okay. Um,

I do have some other very terrifying experiences as a kid, you know, waking up with the little gray guys in my room, just like Gary Nolan said. Now, he has assured me he has no abduction memories at all, and I do not want to speak for him. I just want to thank him for –

But he does say that he remembers graze in his room and I think he was riding his bike. It was like a paper route situation or something. He saw a saucer fly overhead. And so you, you had experiences like that as a kid as well. Yes. Do you, do you think that, cause you grew up right next to a nuclear reactor in Idaho? Well, I was born next to a nuclear reactor, but I grew up in Peabody, Peabody. That's the way you say it. Yeah. Uh,

Only Matt Damon and Ben Affleck can pull off a good Boston accent like that. Or maybe Bill Burr, right? Peabody, right? And then it's right next to Salem. So that's where I grew up. And I did, my dad and my mom were both professors. My mom taught sociology at Northeastern. Where was that?

My dad was an aerospace physicist and a nuke, and he was teaching at MIT. What was he doing? Oh, he was an aerospace physicist. That's so interesting. He worked at Draper Labs, and then he was, I think, I didn't know anything about academia at the time, but I think he was an adjunct professor. He had three master's degrees, and so that was enough credentials to teach at MIT. I don't think anybody can teach at MIT now without a PhD. Did he have any interest in UFOs?

Oh, yeah. What years was he teaching at MIT? Pretty much my whole childhood. So 60s, 70s, until I went off to West Point in 77. So do you attribute any of these experiences to the fact that your father was an aerospace physicist with an interest in UFOs?

You were born next to which nuclear power plant? It wasn't a power plant. It was the first nuclear test reactor that the Army had spun up.

and was all classified at the time, and that was in the early 60s, late 50s. In Idaho. Idaho Falls. Idaho Falls. Yeah. Okay, so you have the father who's interested in UFOs with serious bona fides. You have, you know, born next to a nuclear reactor, and then you also have some Native American heritage. Do you think any of those things played a part in your experiences? Well, and to bolster...

The skeptics out there, Betty and Barney Hill. And so I read about that at the same time. And so, yes, I used all of that to totally dismiss all of my childhood experiences from a scientific skeptical standpoint. I dismissed all of my childhood stuff. Even though your father took this stuff seriously? Yeah. Really? I just blew it off. Really? Until 2018.

And why 2018 did you start to take it there? Because of Leslie Kane and the New York Times article saying that we had official programs or? 2018 for me was a very, very, there's a sort of a threshold year because Leslie's article with Lou came out in December of 2017. And this was, I started teaching my next semester of 2018 and

And I was expecting the entire Air Force Academy to all of a sudden radically change its curriculum and start talking about the billions and billions and trillions of galaxies and start warming up the cadet populace.

To this notion. I mean, if anybody is going to wake up to the notion of potential visitation by extraterrestrials, it should be the United States Air Force Academy, right? To my, I shouldn't say horror, but to my surprise and deep disappointment,

Why is that a greater source of conviction for you? Like an article in the New York times versus your own experiences, which are so, and then did you, would you argue with your dad? Cause if your dad was so kind of pro UFOs, this aerospace physicist, would you say, Hey dad, I don't believe in any of this stuff, even though you had had your own experiences. Uh,

I was on the skeptical side until the mountain bike incident. That was 1995. Oh, okay. And after that point, we kind of flipped. Okay. And I was like,

I started rereading. I read the, the, uh, Corsos, uh, Day After Roswell. Uh-huh. And I really started digging in. That was a little after, that was 97. That was 97. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, I had to focus on grad school, right? You have to maintain a laser focus to get through that. Yeah. Right. So, um, but, but that sort of woke me up to start relooking into this stuff. Right. I mean, I used to read UFO books. Mm-hmm.

During all my boring time in the military, right? Everybody else was, you know, reading, you know, the boring penthouse. I'm reading UFO books. So you were interested in it. I was interested in it, but I didn't internalize it to me until after 95. Okay. Until after that. And it was like those experiences existed in some liminal state or were you actively repressing them as if they hadn't happened and then they sort of resurfaced in 95 or?

I don't know. Okay. What I do know is I bought a lot of UFO books. Interesting. So on some level, you bought it. I didn't internalize it. I didn't relate it to myself. And I didn't even consciously discuss that mountain bike incident. Did your dad have any experiences? Because it's funny, I just interviewed Jacob Barber and he said,

You know, probably as a result of his work with crash retrievals and UFOs, he has this sort of winged sphere thing show up at his house. We have stuff show up over our house. We have a UAP we call the Angel that shows up and it looks like it has oar wings. It's blue and it comes in, materializes, hangs out over the house. It's seen by neighbors. It's seen by everybody. And then it's gone. It shoots into outer space.

I talked to Jake's son about this when we were at his house, and there's a lot of commonality. But I don't want to speak for him at all, but I do recall having a lot of similarities with my childhood with his, which is really interesting. But back to my dad, all I know is he had a lot of UFO books. And I got the impression that he didn't want to discuss it with me until I was old enough.

And then by that time, I had my own career, blah, blah, blah. And so. Did he ever discuss it with you? Oh, yeah. What did he say? Yeah. He would always maintain this strict, rigid rubric of scientific knowledge.

Right. And so he would, he would in an open, open minded way, intent, entertain possibilities, but then he would have these discussions about, I've been talking about probabilities, right? What's, what's this and so forth. And so I, I think it was his way of dealing with the fear by trying to rationalize everything and just always conclude that

Not sure. Don't know. Right. But leave it as a possibility. I'll, you know, worship the Carl Sagan, you know, perspective of the world that, um, what's, what's the, the cliche now is that, um, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Yeah. So 2018, I got the extraordinary proof. I don't think an Iraq times article is extraordinary proof. I think you haven't gotten to that yet. I think your experiences. I haven't gotten to it yet. Okay.

The New York Times article is 2017. Right. In 2018, I attended a conference where a guy got up to the podium and he announced himself as a former Air Force sergeant at Whiteman Air Force Base who was a PRP qualified medic. PRP is the Personnel Reliability Program. It's the...

HR effort program to make sure you don't have crazy people controlling nukes. Right. Uh, and, and here's this guy and he starts telling the story about this camping trip that he and his other buddy, another sergeant or airman first class or whatever, took his camping trip and how, uh, he was, uh, uh,

injured as a result of this experience where the bottom of his feet were burned, sunburned. And so I don't want to tell Terry's story. Terry Lovelace. Terry Lovelace, yeah. And he and I have become very good friends since then. But what really got my attention was when he told the story about being on a table and Dr. Bug comes over

and start, and he's screaming as loud as he can. And Dr. Bug looks over at him and says, stop screaming. You know, we're not going to hurt you. We've told you we're not going to hurt you. Quit screwing around and stop your screaming, but just let us get this done. And he reaches over with a digit, whatever it was, I don't know if it was a claw or what, taps him on the head. And Terry says he was out like a light. And all of a sudden I'm in the

I had already moved up from the back row, right? Somebody had left and I took their seat and I was on the front left. I'm looking right at him. I'm maybe from here to the wall away and I'm, I'm starting to get the goosebumps, right? And the shivers running up and down my spine. And then when he tells this, the buck, Dr. Bug part of the story, um, I'm freaking out. I'm my, you know, I'm,

I'm really tense. I'm sweating, you know, and, uh, I get the hero standing up on my, my arms. And so that's when all the mountain bike stuff came flooding back. And it was shortly after that, I would say within a few months after that, when I went through the regression and realized that the bug dream and the mountain bike dream were

were not two separate events. And the red plaid shirt was a uniform. Do you think there's some sort of

MIT connection with this topic. There's a MIT president named Carl Compton, and there's a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who's this sort of famous, you know, microwave frequency physicist who clearly had something to do with the UFO question. He's on record talking to UFO researcher William Steinman, but also speaking to Wilbert Smith, this, you know, Canadian physicist who had a UFO research program called Project Magnet.

And Robert Starbuckers name just keeps popping up. It pops up with Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

And Saarbacher says that there was a craft being held at Wright-Patterson, and that craft was taken over by the Anderson Trust. And so there's guys like John Anderson, John Lovett, kind of early CIA guys. And then Carl Compton comes to the scene, president of MIT, and all of a sudden he's in charge or has to deal with this somehow. And so...

I do wonder if MIT has some sort of connection with this whole thing. And if this sort of runs in families, as it's rumored, Whitley Streber obviously wrote communions, you know, maybe the archetypal alien abduction case, uh, if not, you know, Betty and Barney Hill, but he, you know, talks about his uncle working with very closely with general Axon at right, right. Airfield. Um, and as, as,

father was a reservist, you know, an Air Force guy. And, you know, so I don't know. Do you think there's something there with you or? I don't know is my succinct answer. But since we're in speculation space here, I have nothing in my experience that

is inconsistent with that. Uh, I, there is no flags in any of all the literature that I've read about all that, that is inconsistent. So it's sort of like with Jake and his team, I don't see any inconsistencies there. There's, there's, um, as I was mentioned to you yesterday, there's a lot of smoke, but no flame that,

I personally observed at DARPA or the AFRO experience when I was assigned at Wright-Patterson for three years.

Yeah, you worked over. We got to talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Because your career is so fascinating because I know you've never seen a UFO firsthand or been read into anything, but you were stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and you were vice president at SAIC, which always comes up with the UFO stuff. For only six months. For only six months. Yeah, fair enough. But it is, I find that interesting. It's almost like you were hovering in and around the

the topic. You're always around the perimeter of this stuff, but like you never get let in. Yeah. I was a bridesmaid, never a bride, right? That was kind of, kind of the way it has, it has evolved. And I'm, would you hear rumors at right, Pat? Like people, cause like, yeah. Any, any, any anecdotes that might give you some conviction that something is going on there outside of the stuff in the lore? Like,

You know, you have Barry Goldwater, you know, saying that he asked Curtis LeMay for, you know, what was being held in the blue room at Wright-Patterson. I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright-Patterson where you put all this secret stuff. Did I go in there? I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder than hell at me.

Cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again. Do you have any stories like that? Yeah, I'm very well, well, excuse me. I'm very well aware of that story. Uh, and a lot of the rumors around, um, right. Patterson, uh, Leonard Stringfield, uh, uh, very prominent, very well-respected UFO researcher, uh, from that, uh, that, uh, region. Um,

I do have, yeah, some anomalous factors and some anomalous sort of behavior. But the closest to what you were just talking about with LeMay and Goldwater was a situation where I had, you know, I've had a lot of

orthopedic procedures, my busted up Humpty, you know, and it doesn't speak well to my athletic prowess that I've had so many problems. Right. You look good to me, man. For your age, I'm super good shape, man. So, um, uh, I, I really needed to, I didn't want to go to doctor on base. I was, I was dating. Matter of fact, she became my fiancee.

Um, lived about, uh, 50 miles away, just over 50 miles away. And the radius of TRICARE, uh, military insurance, uh, coverage was such that if you, if you lived, if you lived outside of a 35 mile radius, I think it was 35. It might've been a little further, maybe 50. Um, you, um,

You had to go to the military hospital on that base. Otherwise, TRICARE wouldn't pay for your care. And so I switched my address to her address. So I found a doctor just outside that radius, and everything was great. And so I report into him. I didn't report. It's, you know, the new patient processing. You got to go in and they list all your stuff. And I listed, like,

my 20 surgeries. And they're like, Oh, well that's, that's interesting. And I was like, I told him the same thing. Yeah. That's just a reflection of my lack of athletic ability. And that's how I ended up with all this stuff busted. So then the doctor comes in and he's looking through everything. He says, Oh, uh, and he realized right away what I was doing. He goes, so, uh,

You're just outside the radius, right? I was like, yeah. He goes, yeah, I get a lot of you guys. I get a lot of guys from right back who come to see me because I don't want to go to the hospital on base. And he goes, let me ask you something. Had they let you see the alien bodies yet? And I kind of wasn't ready for that. But I smiled, kind of like I think I'm smiling now. And I was like, no, I haven't.

Gotten right in on that or whatever. And then he just, he was looking at me very seriously. And then he goes, oh, I'm just kidding. Right? And then we get to talking and he goes, you know, I asked everybody to kind of lighten up the mood. Right?

He goes, but do you mind if I tell you a story? I was like, yeah, sure. I mean, you're the doc, right? You don't have a scalpel held to my neck. So, uh, yeah, give it a go. He goes, well, there was a two-star general that came in here, uh, about six months ago. And I did that same thing. And he got furious with me. He stood up and he came over to me and got like this far in my grill, in my face, uh,

And he said, don't you ever ask me anything like that ever again. I came here to get treated, not traumatized by somebody like you. Now, are you going to treat me for this stuff or not? And he just ripped into him. And it immediately reminded me, when he was telling me that story, of the story between LeMay and Goldwater.

And I was like, wow. Like he wouldn't have reacted so strongly if there wasn't something there. Right. Yeah. And so did you hear anything around the base or, you know, anybody talking around? Okay. Yeah. But what was somewhat anomalous is that shortly after I got there, I found out that I had been

Sort of demoted. It was kind of, it was kind of crazy. So when I was, when I was at DARPA, I was a lieutenant colonel, retired as a lieutenant colonel, ended up coming back as a GS-15 to go to Afghanistan to use little robots to go try to find bin Laden in the caves in Tora Bora. Were you literally doing that?

That's amazing. That's a really interesting story. I got to tell you, this is the first time I've ever talked about that in public. Wow. And the reason is that a tremendously heroic god of aviation told that story, made a reference to that story about three months ago.

Who's that? On the Sean Ryan show. His name is Alan Mack, a legend in the Night Stalker Task Force 160 community. And in the middle of his interview, Tim Galladet asked me if I had met Alan, if I knew him. And I said, no. And he said, I don't know if he sent me the link or just told me that he had just done an interview with Sean.

And so I watched the interview with rapt attention, and it was magnificent. I mean, I just can't speak well enough for the guy. And he had a rough time with his wife and his divorce, similar to mine. He had it a lot tougher than mine. But in any case, I'm kind of listening. I think I went up to go to the kitchen and make us a sandwich or something. And then I hear him talk about

How, um, right after he had inserted, he and his guys had inserted all the, the detachments from fifth group that is now a legendary, the horse soldiers. There's a book written about a movie written about it with, uh,

with, um, um, what's his name? Four. Uh, uh, not Liam, the other guy who said Chris Hemsworth. Yeah. And so he was this ODA commander, a special forces, a team commander. And that they made the movie, the movie made it look like it was one detachment where you got to multiply that by like 36. Cause there were, there were a bunch of Chris Hemsworth all over the tour board region.

And so Al was in his several helicopters. I don't know how many command, maybe five, six. I'm not sure. They were the guys that put those guys in. And so after they got done with that mission, they were told that they were going to rotate back to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. So they've been in country for several months. Right. And so they're looking forward to going home. And then he got this cockamamie mission and,

to lower a robot down into a cave. That was one of your robots. Yeah. I was the only guy with robots in the country at the time. It had to be me. They were lowering the robots into a cave. And what were, did you have a hand in the mission itself? I was the mission. You were the mission. I was, I had a by name request from my former boss, uh, General Brown, a magnificent warrior and soldier. So that's why DARPA, uh,

Called me back out of retirement to go do this mission. Were you in Tora Bora for the mission or you were remotely controlling it? I was in Afghanistan. We were doing workups. We were doing rehearsals for it at Bagram Airfield with a couple of Green Berets from fifth group that will remain unnamed. And they, it was our little cell and they were going to use the robot to, to,

research, re-service those tunnels and those caves, rather than taking a 12-man detachment and land them and have to look in each cave. And there were significant distances between, and you got serious terrain that you got to go through. So rather than doing that, the idea was we lower the robot, looks in the cave real quick, either determines somebody's there or somebody's not. And here's the problem.

that a lot of those tunnels, it was just a shallow cave. It was like maybe half as deep as this room. And so it looked like it was a tunnel. You didn't know until you got on the ground and looked in. And so shadows can play tricks on you and everything. And then the concern was a bunch of booby traps, right? And so the value of my little robots, that's what I was brought into DARPA to look at, is to use little robots to sneak into places that might have WMD.

And so it made all the sense in the world, especially in the middle of winter with a bunch of snow, right? And the weight distribution of a little miniature tank with these fat treads. What year was this? This was 2001. Well, I got the mission in 2001. We didn't actually get over there until very early 2002, January, February. And did—

Because for a while we had pretty good confidence that bin Laden was in Tora Bora, right? And then he sort of got away. Like what happened there? Because he ended up, we found him in Waziristan or Pakistan or whatever. So we're already in the rabbit hole. Now we're going into a deeper rabbit hole within the rabbit hole. Have you ever heard of the book Kill Bin Laden by a guy named Dalton Fury? I have not. Yeah. So if you look at that, I...

We can talk about that afterwards, but that was written by one of my colleagues, a fellow true commander, not a squadron commander. We were kind of like lower middle management, right? And he had that mission. And he asked on three separate occasions. He went on 60 Minutes in disguise to tell Scott Pelley that he had direct information

Overwatch on bin Laden on three separate occasions, very close, easily within small arms range. And he asked for clearance to take out the target and it was denied three times. That's really weird. That's crazy. That's so fucked. That's, it's, it's like you had, you just had an incentive to nation build in Afghanistan, then go into Iraq and waste all this time and money. But,

get halbert in a contract or something it's so ridiculous that's the fact i gotta read this book i want to talk to this guy and and i'm sure it's on youtube i mean i've watched it on youtube several times uh he has since passed away uh throat uh cancer um yep and and just a great guy oh man uh very you know again one of these heroes that that um

I had the pleasure of serving in the same unit, not at the same time. I never met him, never shook hands. He came in probably a couple, few years after I left. They just let him go three times, Bin Laden. That's what, that's what, um,

That's what he does. That's crazy. Well, that's what, I mean, there were rumors that we were closing in on Bin Laden at Tora Bora and then all of a sudden he gets away and then you hear stuff like that the ISI kind of knew, you know, the Pakistani intelligence knew that Bin Laden was in Waziristan the whole time. And I mean, you just look at like the way in which Bin Laden was found and you're like, how wasn't this guy found prior? With the amount of resources, $6 trillion that Waziristan

that we spent in Middle East activities post, you know, September 11th, 2001. How do we not find this one guy? It's just crazy. And you have like, you know, the total information awareness stuff and you have, you can network and there are ways to find people and you can't, can't find this one guy. Like, and then, and then when you do find him, he's like,

watching DVDs in this weird outhouse. And he's got like, it's like, give me a break. Like, it's crazy. Uh, but, but the impact on me at that time in February was, um,

We were spinning up. We were rehearsing my mission, our mission, to send these two guys with this robot and attack another heroic guy. I will tell you his name. His name is Nathan Desmule, legend in the robotics EOD community. And he was, that guy was amazing. He was able to splice fiber optic back together on some of these robots and so forth. Anyway, I heard this rumor that

We had, we, the unit had been logged in their sites three times and it was denied down the channel, a very short channel command. So it's very unique that straight from the president down to this, this unit through a two-star general. What was the rationale? Do you have any sense? They never got it. That was the problem. There was never any reason given that.

There's a lot of hypothesis later that I've heard from. It's not like we wanted him alive. We killed him in Pakistan. It's like the one reasonable speculation that I heard 10 years later, skiing with a good buddy of mine, another aviator, very senior aviators. Matter of fact, he was the senior aviator in the army. I tell you his name, but I haven't asked him yet. So, and he said, I think that,

We wanted to dangle Bin Laden out to get the other fish. Kind of like, you know, you have an insort. Yeah. Kind of like the narco world, right? Yeah, yeah. So you got somebody, but you want to see how many little fish gather around so we can get them all up. There's some logic to that. Yeah. But in any case, the impact on me was...

Near tragic. But the way, if you, I'm just, I just want to play devil's advocate there. Then you take the guy hostage and you get the other fish. I mean, you have more leverage if the guy is in your custody than if you, he's just out free. I mean, he's come on. And on a ski lift, I think that's exactly how I addressed that. Yeah. So the, um, at that time during the spin up,

I was furious because we didn't have any microphones on any of our robots. And I had mandated early on in my DARPA program, we got to have microphones. We got to have the same sensing capacity as a human, right? Because we don't want to do worse than a human, right? Why do you want to put a robot in if you...

There's obviously value that a robot can fit in a hole that a human can't, but we at least got to be able to hear, right? Because I want to use them as assets, right? If Bin Laden's down in that tunnel, I want to be able to hear what the heck he's saying, right? And that's part of the, that's why I need SF guys, special forces guys, because we're language trained and we can understand what the hell he's saying. So we didn't have microphones. I was furious. So I catch a space A, a space available flight,

first to Turkey, to Incirlik, and then to Germany. And while I'm in Germany with Nate, we hear about Operation Anaconda and how everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. And helicopters are shot down, all this stuff. And it just took all the wind out of my sails because then when I came back,

And now that there was all these rumors about, well, and you know, we had been rotten three times and I'm like, how am I doing here? Yeah. If, if we find him with the robot, yeah. Um,

What? They're just going to say no. Right. So what is, so you can imagine the effect on, on the motivation. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's demoralizing. So I was totally demoralized. Kabuki theater. You're just chasing around a guy just to let him go every time. Exactly. And so when I got back, I outbreathed the DARPA director and, and he said, okay, well,

We'll get microphones on him and so forth. And I said, no, sir, that's not good enough. I need to pick, handpick my team of the guys that are going to run these robots around. And he refused, so I resented.

That's the end of that story. Crazy story. Well, John, you were, you were Green Beret. Am I wrong? That's correct. Okay. So recent Green Beret just came on my show. His name is Randy Anderson. I believe you know him now. Yeah. And Randy has a pretty amazing story. He says that he was stationed as a 18 Bravo weapons sergeant at a Naval surface warfare crane in Indiana and

that he was taken in an elevator underground, taken past a bunch of security checkpoints into a SCIF, a secret compartmentalized information facility, and the placard on the wall of the SCIF was Off-World Technologies,

And he was shown two things, an orb levitating above a podium and a gauntlet, like almost like a glove like thing emitting hieroglyphics. And I have his DD 214. I have a couple of his colleagues DD 214s. I know for a fact that.

that he still occasionally does contract work for Area 51. I think people don't realize how big of a test site that is and that they're not going to, like, fire this guy for... He didn't break any NDAs as a result of this. He just, you know, it was just the NDA, you know, the Naval Service Warfare Crane NDA. It's nothing to do with Area 51. They wouldn't retaliate. If they did retaliate, it would be self-identification for Area 51. So you have all these people kind of coming at the story, saying it's bullshit,

I lended a lot of credence given what I've gotten to know about him over the last, you know, couple of months. I've, I've known him for maybe four or five months now, but I've done, you know, extra research on it. What, what, what do you think about his story? Uh, so before he came on your show. Yeah. Long before he came on your show. Yeah. I, I had quite a bit of interaction with him, Dave Grush, uh, through, uh,

Maybe one other person, maybe it was Michael Herrera, put me in touch with him. And again, with the same notion that Ross and Dave wanted me to do with Jake. Suss him out. Just, just, no, just be a compassionate, open ear. And, and yeah, you know, again, tell them my story. And part of the value of this is,

When these guys come out, at least they're not as crazy as the colonel who thinks he was fricking abducted by a praying mantis. Sure. Right. And so it kind of, it kind of encourages them. But what was your assessment of the core story? I mean, do you think that. I, I, I believe every aspect of his story.

I don't have the same level of confidence because I didn't meet him with four other guys that I could see and watch the behavior. But I find zero inconsistency with what he said. Now, there's a couple of details, very important details that you left out in your summary. Yeah. One was the long elevator ride. Yep. Right? And the notion that topside...

The facility, he didn't really describe it as being decrepit, but it wasn't that, I think the way he described it is it wasn't really state of the art, right? But when he got to the bottom of that long elevator ride, it was very sophisticated, right? And so that is entirely consistent with the

And advanced weapons development structure, right? First of all, underground is absolutely the most secure facility you can imagine, right? And why worry about fence lines and canines and security forces, folks, if you're, what, 100 feet below grade? And there are rumors of deep underground military bases from...

edwards to nellis to peterson and colorado and and cheyenne mountain complex nor at like you this stuff is there's enough smoke there where i you know you don't have to say anything without me saying i think there's some fire but i've been in several of them yeah never never been read on any read in on anything in my entire career uh

But the smoke is very, very prominent and hot. Yeah. Never saw any flames. Yeah. But the other, the gauntlet, the space ghost glove. Yes. That he described in the sphere, totally consistent with Bob Lazar's story from 1988. Mm-hmm.

Why is the glove? I didn't know. Is the glove part of Bob Lazar's story? No. The sphere was. But I thought Bob Lazar worked on like a sports model, like alien reproduction vehicle, sort of UFO thing. I didn't know that he saw like a sphere orb or something. Oh, yeah. He describes a basketball size, maybe a smaller, maybe soccer ball sized-ish item. And as he approached it,

And tried to, it was, it was, it was sort of like he had men magnetic gloves on a vault opposite polarity. And so he couldn't get there.

that story's come up a ton seeing a sphere being tested for your psionic abilities your your your mind matter capabilities or something via this sphere thing well i don't want to i just interviewed a psionic asset yeah who has that story uh and so just that just keeps coming up this sort of sphere thing that often i guess in randy's case he says it came off the craft it wasn't

the craft itself. It came off the craft. And then I just had Michael Shradd on, who's this deep UFO researcher who goes through all of Leonard Stringfield's stuff. And he describes this egg, and the egg is cracked, and it's taken to Berkeley labs to be studied, and they're

on the inside is a sphere inside of the egg. So I have no idea. We're getting in super speculative territory. But okay, so Lazar, what else would corroborate? Because Lazar, I think reasonably to somebody in the audience is like, you know, who knows. So is there anybody else that, yeah, go for it. Well, other elements of smoke. This is more wispy than the thick carcinogenic heavy black smoke. But Crane's not far from Wright-Patterson.

No, it's a few hour drive, three hours. And it's a Navy facility. That's right. Now, what I can tell you about Randy's specialty as an 18 Bravo or weapon sergeant, these guys really are quite special. One of the final exams during the Special Forces Q course,

is called the pile test. Did Randy tell you about any of that? I don't think you mentioned that. I saw your interview with him. Yeah. So, um, talked about stress fractures everywhere, just how intense, but you know, what's the pile test? The pile test is so a weapon sergeant in, in their six months of training, they're trained on all sorts of foreign weapons. And, uh,

You have to learn how to assemble them, disassemble them, repair them. Because you're behind enemy lines, you've got what we call battlefield recovery. You use whatever you pull off the battlefield and you repair them and give them back to the guerrillas that survived or the foreign internal defense forces.

you're kind of trying to do counter-globe. But one way or another, these weapons, you need to be an expert, like almost an armor level. A lot of these guys end up after they retire, they go run gun shops and they become armors. So the pile test is out of all the weapons, and I don't know how many they learn over the course of their training, it's probably double digits, like 11, 12, 15 different weapons.

And so these weapons are randomly selected and they come in and there's a table and all the weapons are there. And then the instructor clicks the stopwatch and they got to disassemble all the weapons. And then, okay, everybody's timed and everybody that doesn't make it a certain amount of time, you're a no-go. And then you got to do a retest. So you're out and then you got to come back and do it again. And then same thing. Okay, now disassemble it, put it all together. All right.

Anybody that doesn't disassemble it, it's a lot easier than assembling usually. Um, and every now and then there'll be as, cause there's little springs, tiny little springs and, and you'll hear like a ping and the spring goes flat across the room. And the guy's like, Oh shit. And so you got to go scramble, get the spring. So lots of hilarious stories about that. But the pile test is after those two pre-tests, then, uh,

They got to stand up and come away from the table. And then after the disassembly, the instructor comes over and mixes all the parts. So now you have a pile of random parts. And then you sit back down at your chair in front of this table with all these parts. And then the instructor clicks the watch. And you have to reassemble all these weapons. And then they turn the lights on.

And there's a timed test. That's how good these guys got to be. That in total darkness, they reassemble all these weapons. So with that level of perspective on ballistics and armor sort of skills, it would make sense that you would want somebody like that

to go examine these potential weapons instead of a nuclear physicist, right? If you're trying to figure out what possible way we might reverse engineer this sort of thing. So that's why I say there's no inconsistency with Randy's story. It's totally consistent and commensurate with

his skillset and his skill level. Also about half of the crashed UFO craft stories involve hieroglyphics. So like that actually, that isn't super random either, but yeah, it's just, it's so interesting. And I think the thing in his case is he will admit, he's like, I don't know why I was shown this stuff, but like, you know, and I don't know if this was some bizarre psyop or whatever, but I think the core experience is real. There's no reason. I mean,

the other thing you can probably speak to is, you know, and I've spoken to a couple of his green beret colleagues now. Um, I've seen the, their DD two fourteens. I know they're sort of, one of them was actually does still does work with him at area 51 and was like, yeah, I saw that green orb that Randy talked about. So, you know, and the other, I think has a, you know, successful company and the, and a lot of green berets sort of follow this person. So, uh,

Yeah, I believe him. I believe his core story. He doesn't really get anything out of this. You know, we plugged his like self-defense local company in Las Vegas at the end of the thing. But it's like there's he's not doing this for, you know, fame or, you know, anything, any he doesn't have ulterior motives. So.

It was really painful to see certain people online go after his credentials and background. Like, I know where he was deployed. I know a lot more, actually, about some war feats that, like, I wanted to say, but he didn't because of the, you know, the Green Beret way. And to see people kind of question his service and record when, you know, 20 people in his graduating class of Green Berets

aren't alive. It's like, it's just shameful. It's like, it's so ridiculous. Well, that's another consistency, right? Because we keep our mouths shut.

Right. Our motto is quiet professionals. Yeah. And so he wanted to do it anonymously. He wanted his face blurred out until a day before we do shot. He was like, and I was like, dude, I don't think that's going to help. And we talked about that a little bit and, and discussed it by text back and forth. Um, and I, and I think that, you know, he like, uh,

Like Danny Sheehan's interpretation of the law of an NDA, an NDIA does not apply to them. Unless we have declared war on them, this nondisclosure agreement that you discussed that you're not going to talk about, you know,

anything that will betray our ability to fight our adversaries. Of course. Well, and we still haven't declared war on China yet either. Right. And so... Yeah, but it's also clearly the underlying principle behind India. It's like, yeah, don't let...

a blueprint as to how to build some, you know, crazy weapon. I don't tip your hat to the adversary, but if it's ontological truth, if it's just a core thing that like humanity should know, you can't NDA that. I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. That's just dumb. Like some, if it's, if it's a principle, you know, in, uh, you know, uh, uh,

tricks of the trade that could cause harm if in the wrong hands, of course. Yeah. I'd DA the shit out of that. But I mean, this, this stuff is, it's for humanity. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. Yeah. I mentioned this in my first interview when I finally graduated with Marie McNeely and I'm indebted to her and Josh Elder for, for setting that up for me. And at one point she was asking me a question. I said, you know what?

I kind of want to stay away from that. And she said, oh, I totally understand. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble for divulging any secrets. And I gently explained to her, it's not about getting in trouble. I've been in trouble all my life.

It's about protecting sources and methods and your brothers and sisters in arms. You don't want to put them at risk. Kind of like the Mission Impossible thing, the knock list gets out. So there's this ethical morality balance there. But speculatively, let's take a step back from that.

into LEO, to low Earth orbit. Let's look at this planet. Do you see any boundaries between cities or between countries? Do we see any boundaries between the United States of America? So we're so divided right now. Look at what would have happened if we did have a civil war, right? And you've got nuclear weapons in Wyoming and South Dakota and...

Montana, and what if those two states are on opposite sides of the Civil War? Are we going to nuke our own country? It would be disastrous. Right? And so let's take a step back and extend beyond the boundaries of the divided states of America, right? And let's look at the divided nations of Earth, right? Same thing. Are we humans?

really going to frickin nuke each other over silly spats about economics when there's a potential for way bigger problems right out there so Reagan's famous speech right with Gorbachev tear down this wall what what if we were how ridiculous all our petty little disagreements and

It's funny, Reagan, apparently, I've heard rumors that Star Wars initiatives actually dealt with, you know, the UFO question, some of these, you know, weapons ramp ups in the early 80s. A lot of Reagan speeches dealt with non-human intelligence and stuff, you know, in the mid 80s.

This is not speculation. That is fact. Well, I can go. You can go look at those speeches. The facts that I know, I know of one speech where he said it's like, you know, it's like if there was an alien invasion, you know, it would totally unite us as a human race. And then there's a second story.

Gorbachev told Charlie Rose and he says, you know, I don't remember, it was some UN event or something, and he's sitting next to Reagan and Reagan whispers over before the event starts and he says, you know, in the event of an alien invasion, would you help us? President Reagan suddenly said to me, what would you do if the United States were attacked?

by someone from outer space would you help us I said no doubt about it he said we too

And so, yeah. Well, this is one of the most powerful aspects of Robert Hastings' book, UFO and Nukes. Yeah. Great book. That, you know, he and Bob Jacobs and Terry and Mario Woods and Jeff Goodrich, who still hasn't had his story told. And that deserves, so we could talk about that later. Yeah, I'd love to. I'll try to put you guys in touch. That'd be awesome. Phenomenal. Please, yeah. But part of the most compelling aspect of that is,

The collective perspective that most of us share, I don't want to speak for all of them, but what I took away from it was the notion, and Robert has said this in his documentary and many interviews, that the collective feeling from it is that we are playing with fire. I have a chapter called Nuclear Matchsticks. We are essentially kids playing with matches in the backyard.

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I believe that. And I believe if you have, this gets into weird kind of ontological truth and metaphysics, but maybe we're poking holes in reality with certain high energy physics experiments and with, you know, some of the nuclear stuff and it's almost opening portals to another world. And I think that the really interesting phenomena that happens after that is you have all these really tough guys who get spooked by really, really,

crazy you know entities that they encounter and after those encounters they kind of turn on the system and they're like we have to we need to we need peace we you know we need to we need to lay our arms down you're a great example yeah all members of that yeah and it's it's fascinating to see it's you know randy anderson's great example where he's that guy's a tough dude you just you just see like you know that guy could beat the shit out of me

But he's going through this like really interesting journey where he's, I think, waking up, becoming more conscious. And that's what prompted him to come out to me with this story. And we had really deep conversations before putting the story out that I wish people could see around his story.

you know, reforming as a person, almost spiritual awakening. And that's happening to a lot of military guys. So it's almost like you're poking the beehive, the bees come out, and then you're like, actually, you know, you kind of reform. You realize that there's, you know. To quote Jake Barber, it's not ontological shock. It's ontological relief. Yeah. We understand now.

And we, and so, yeah, so, and that's why we do this. Right. One other detail I want to talk to you about specifically with the Randy Anderson story is he was introduced to me by an amazing UFO researcher named UAP Gerb. Recommend everybody check out his channels, really deep, incredible stuff.

And his name's Sammy UAP group. He's done a deep dive on basically he thinks that SAIC, which is located right next to Naval service warfare crane was the contractor doing the psionic testing. They're on record doing psychotronic testing and other cases, you know, getting into that area. I think they wrote a paper on, or they commissioned a paper on electro gravidics, J

James Woodward and I think 88 or something, you know, they, they're, they're very deep on, uh, alternative science that is UFO adjacent, let's just say. So you were a VP of SAIC for six months. Do you think that SAIC was the contractor for Randy? Uh, I, I have read a lot of smoke, no flames. Um, I, I,

I was brought aboard SAIC to take over a troubled robotics division out in Littleton, Colorado. And I didn't get very far because I was almost immediately pulled back to DARPA. I was really excited about taking over that division. I had some – I had a lot of optimism that we could –

uh, make some big impact. But that, I mean, it was like three days after I'm at ground zero and DARPA is calling me. Art Morris, great friend of mine, brilliant scientist. And he's like, Hey, we want to get you back. We're, we're getting ready to go to, um, overseas. He just left it at that. Right. Cause it was still early on, but we all knew it was Afghanistan. Right. Um, and I was like, dude, I'm, I got my hands full here. Let me,

I'm trying to rescue people for crying out loud, killing people and going after Ben Loudon. That's secondary. Let's let me take care of this stuff first. And then it stayed back burner until I ended up turning all the robots to another great hero, Sergeant First Class Dave Platt, and ended up finally getting back to my house that I had just bought in Colorado and

and, and then got redeployed there. So I only had maybe 30 days total time at SAIC before I had to take a leave of absence from there to go become a GS 15 atop. So not really a lot of opportunity to peek under the skirt and look around for any, you know, interesting stuff. So, um, so yeah, uh, I was never ran into anything at SAIC. Um,

I gave one briefing on the potential of small robots to sneak into little nooks and crannies. Kind of a threefer. Yeah. You know, that's got value for looking in rubble, right? Because if you're a 250-pound firefighter with a scuba tank, you ain't fitting up underneath that couch, right? And a security system that's designed to detect a two-meter bag of water. Uh-huh.

Probably not going to detect something the size of my fist. Yeah. Right. Sneaking through the barbed wire. And if we're going to be looking for microbial life on Mars, it makes no sense to be wandering around the surface of a planet that is literally bathed in poisonous radiation. Chris McKay, I'll never forget it. He gave a phenomenal lecture on,

But in the summer of 2001, it was a fundraiser

to kind of motivate all of us that we're going to go up to the Houghton Crater as part of NASA's HMP Houghton Mars Project. And there was the Mars Underground, so forth. So there's some video of me on a website on my LinkedIn page. It's day 17 in the Mars simulation, and a new crew member arrives with some unusual American military technology.

My name is Lieutenant Colonel John Blitch. Treat it like American football. And you're running for the end zone. I'm a program manager for the Tactical Mobile Robotics Program at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. It was a wonderful experience with Dr. Pascal Lee, Dr. Bob Zubrin, Dr. Darlene Lim, all these people. Brilliant. And we essentially played like we were Mars astronauts.

And my role was the robot guy. And I brought a bunch of robots from DARPA up there to pretend that we were on Mars. And the niche was fitting into little nooks and crannies, the shadows. That's where you're going to find microbes. And Chris McCabe shared with us, he held us in rapt attention for like two and a half hours with two slides.

One was like Red Mars and then maybe Blue Mars or Green Mars. I forget about it. And James Cairn was there. I met him. And he was taking a lot of heat because of, I forget the name of the movie. I think it was Red Mars or something Mars. And he took a lot of heat. And finally he said, okay, it's just a movie for crying out loud, right? You know, let me off the hook. But Chris was always a big opponent of,

of manned missions because he felt that we were going to contaminate the surface. So how do you know if a hitchhiker, a microbe doesn't fall off your skin, end up on your boot, and then suddenly blooms and flourishes in the soil on Mars or whatever. So he was

He was at, I think he was at Ames, NASA Ames. And there was friction between the astronaut folks at Johnson Space Center and the scientists there, the pro robot guys. We can only afford to send robots. And we got to, of course, you're going to, you know, do them in a clean room and make sure there's no dust on them or whatever. And then he suddenly realized, I don't know when his epiphany was, but it was before he did this lecture, that

you know what? There is no chance of anything surviving on the surface of Mars because all of the radiation. So now he's like, we should send astronauts. Do it now. And that was in 2001.

And before we launched up there in July of 2001. What do you think of these structures that we're now finding on Mars, like these sort of anomalous, artificial looking structures? Do you think that Mars at one point had life? You know, even the conventional sort of astronomical understanding of Mars is that maybe at some point it did have life and that its magnetosphere was stripped. Yeah.

There is extremely compelling evidence in my personal and professional opinion that there, so don't take it from me.

Richard Hoagland, you know, the face on Mars guy. Yeah. And the pyramid, Sidonia. But Hoagland was also a little nutty in other ways, but... He's not the only one. But a lot of Hoagland's stuff is becoming vindicated. Like, you read the first part of Dark Mission, that book, and, like, he's talking about the, you know...

uh quaternion you know like uh maxwell's equations the the you know expanded version of maxwell's equations being more faithful than the heavyside simplification and two years ago you could have said that's quacky and ridiculous or whatever now you have the national science foundation nasa doing podcasts talking about this stuff and i've spoken to enough serious aerospace people where i'm like i think that's real and then if that's real then like

I don't know. Is our whole rocket program just a weird, you know, pagan ritual cult? Like, I'm not sure. I don't know. Oh, you know, since we're down that rabbit hole, uh, uh, John Brennenberg's series books about the, the isotopic ratio that is exclusive as far as we know to a nuclear detonation. And, uh,

That huge ballast man on the earth. And so he speculates that whatever civilization was there was eradicated via nuclear war. And he has the chemical, photonic evidence that he presents very compellingly, in my opinion, that...

You know, there's correlations and there's causation, right? And so if you have correlation, how does correlation become causality? What's this, an isotope that only a nuke could create or something? Yes. What is the isotope? Do we know? So you have this correlation between these factors and this result, and then correlation becomes causation when...

Occam's razor slices through all of the other alternatives and that's all. If you can account for all the other variables, then you're left with, by the law of parsimony, that's the only thing we got. And so that's how it becomes causation. So he could find no other reasonable, no other reasonable mechanism for that

isotopic ratio to be there. I want to talk other than a nuclear donation. I'll send you the links to a bunch of his books. Yeah. He's got three that I know. He does like gravity experiments as well. Is that the same John Brandenburg or is that different? Um, I don't recall any gravity experiments, but it might be interesting. It could be.

Wow. Yeah. I also, I just spoke to Joseph McMonagle, who is part of, yeah, the, you know, remote viewing program. And he remote viewed Mars a million years ago, claimed to see all these pyramids. And then he says he's now in touch with all these guys at JPL who are sending him all these artificial structures on, on Mars. And I saw the photos at his place and I,

you know, he's not super deep on the provenance of, you know, and like exactly what the credentials are of the people he's in touch with. But I'm super curious because. Have you, are you familiar with Carl Wolf and his. Oh yeah. Yeah. Lieutenant Carl Wolf. Yeah. This was, he was in a dark room and he saw this photo of a structure, but that was on the moon. He was, he was not a Lieutenant. Okay. Senior Airman. Okay.

And he was a photo repair technician. That's right. And this was he... He claimed to be in some like a special compartment of NASA or something. It was like in a mountain, right? No, it was at Langley. It was at Langley. And he went into a room and he was surprised because...

There was a lot of foreign language spoken. And he came to realize that there were apparently, you know, just based on... He said it was an international space program. That there were a bunch of scientists from all over the world there at this meeting. And he was brought in to repair a device for photo processing that was broken.

And the other person in the room, I think was also an Air Force airman, started whispering to him that they had discovered huge structures on the dark side of the moon. And so he became uncomfortable because he knew that this guy was telling him something that he wasn't supposed to know.

So this is part of this. But he saw a photo. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The guy showed him. The guy showed him a photo. And then he made a speech about it and then he died. He got hit by a car on his bike or something. It was weird. Yeah. He was riding his bike and he was hit by a semi-tractor trailer. And so this comes into some of this, you know, rumor, some hot smoke on some of this of people –

Being eliminated with the use of deadly force that is rationalized by the notion that we really have to keep this secret because it's too scary for, you know. Do you think there are structures on the dark side of the moon? China is now going to the dark side of the moon.

I have no red flags of inconsistency to say otherwise. Yeah, but I feel like the burden of proof should be on the person saying that there are possibly structures on the dark side of the man. Absolutely. Well, yeah, the burden of proof is really interesting, right? Like, would you say your base case is that there are structures on the dark side of the man? Um...

No, I, I, all I'm saying is I have no reason to disbelieve Carl Wolfe. He didn't, he didn't write a book and get rich and famous. Sure. That I know of. Um, and the fact of the matter is UFO books don't sell the vast majority of them, especially abduction books. That's way too crazy.

Uh, so, um, so I don't have any reason to disbelieve Carl Wolf and the logic of what he described, uh, tracks. It's, it's consistent in my personal opinion. The moon itself is a very weird structure. You know, you have a Apollo 10, I believe took off and then it sort of rang like a bell. 12th. Apollo 12. No, was it 12? I thought it was.

It was 12 because 10 didn't land. 11 landed. 11 landed. It rang like a bell. 12, 12. They put seismometers in the earth and then they crashed the booster intentionally. And then it rang like a bell for three hours. I think it was 12 and 15. Uh, well, when they took off, they, um, they, they deorbited, um, the, I think it was the command module. No, it wasn't a command module. Command module booster.

Yeah, it was the booster. Yeah. And it rang. Yeah. And then they replicated it three missions later, as I understand it. Oh, I thought. But either way, you had a repeatable effect. And you had Gordon McDonald, you know, space admin under Eisenhower saying the only thing, I think he was at Columbia, he said the only explanation for the moon is that it's a hollow structure. Yeah.

And then you had remote viewers at the time like Ingo Swann saying that, you know, and this is actually a fact. The soil, you know, at the top of the moon is older than sediment layers below it, which only pattern matches to excavation sites or hollow structures. Well, okay. You shouldn't drill and then get newer stuff. To play devil's advocate, if you have a

a meteorite um strike and it explodes then you could have lower lower layers that end up on top that's possible it's possible okay well that but that would just be in one region that wouldn't be ubiquitous across the moon also the moon is usually is way too big for a normal moon

And it is, I mean, I don't know if this matters, but it's like one four hundredths the size of the Earth and then it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. And it orbits in this perfect way where you never see the dark side, which is also very irregular. That's not something that you would normally encounter. When we compare our moon around this planet to other moons in our own solar system, which we know a lot about,

It is highly irregular. Yeah, it's highly irregular. So it's been speculated that maybe it's sort of an artificial structure, like an alien satellite or something like that, a spaceship. I'm well aware of a lot of that speculation. Okay. What's the weirdest thing that you can talk about that you worked on at DARPA? Weirdest? Most interesting. Most mind-blowing. Oh, well, my special access program...

was trying to reverse engineer camouflage from cephalopods. That's so cool. And what shook me up was sudden awareness that possibly in excess of 70% of neural processing

in cephalopods is independent from their central nervous system. And the way, the way I became aware of it is, uh, with a couple of brilliant scientists from, uh, Israel, I think it was university of Haifa, maybe, um, Benny Hockner and, and tomorrow flash. And they came to this, this, um, fabulous workshop that, uh, Roger Hanlon from marine biological, uh, laboratory Woods hole, um,

And he's kind of the god of cephalopods and cryptosis behavior. Brilliant guy. You can see his TED Talk. And it's dated back in 2012. But, geez, 20 years or 15 years before that, I saw that same video. And I sold a $70 million program based on that one video. Wow. And it shows him swimming along. And he's coming across this coral reef.

And there's seaweed swaying back and forth. And as he approaches what looks like a rigid hunk of coral, all of a sudden blanches white. And you see this big eye in the middle of it. And it shoots off after squirting ink behind it. Wow. And that's an octopus. Were you successful? Yes. And then a month later, it was canceled. Crazy. With no explanation. Very weird.

No, I thought at the time, so this happened in fall of 2000. Yeah. And I got word right after the election. So the, the election of 2012 or 2000, the turn of the century of the Y2K election was between, um, Al Gore and George W. Bush. And it was a very tight election. And it, it, it got down to that, the,

legendary hanging chads. They were counting ballots in Florida where they were worried about just this little tab not being fully open, whatever. And it got, it made, you know, 2020 look like a regular election almost, right? It was wild. And so there was a lot of rumors about when the Clinton administration left the White House, they had trashed it.

And all this stuff. And I was caught up in that. And I erroneously attributed it to a political stunt that the incoming administration was going to stick it to the outgoing administration by picking a couple of pet projects and just cancel them. Because that was the best that I could do to make sense of the data, to connect all the dots.

And I was furious about it. And it played no small role in me leaving DARPA and deciding to retire from the military. Because I suddenly started thinking, you know, I need to get my butt. And so SAC came to me and offered me this job, making way more money than I ever imagined I could, even as a retired colonel, right? And so...

That, that combination of factors made me take that job and retire. Even though I, I, I felt like I, I still had, you know, I had hopes of making general officer. Matter of fact, I had been told on several occasions that I, that I was gonna, that I, I was good for at least two stars. That's what quote was told to me. It's fine. Speaking to you, it just,

It always makes me wonder how this UFO program operates or works, because like I think you'd be like the best recruit for like something like that. No, I am a screw up. And no, I mean, you're into the topic of this interdisciplinary knowledge. And then, yeah, it's just so weird. Like, I do think SAIC had something to do with this, you know.

Bobby Ray Inman, who is director of the CIA, and I think, like, number two at NSA. Like, you know, a rare person to be at the top of both organizations. And, you know, he has this call with Bob Oxler, this, you know, UFO researcher, and he's basically admitting that, you know, we have UFOs in our possession. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be...

A short time later, Bob Exler received this call.

Mr. Axler, this is Tom King in Admiral Inman's office. Yes, you would be breaching competence and or violations of the 53 laws and discussing his involvement in any matter. And so it's... Ben Rich said same thing. Ben Rich did say the same thing. We have the technology, quote, we have the technology to take E.T. home. Do you think that was bluster or propaganda or do you think he really... Well, so again...

putting my behavioral scientist cap on, ego's a powerful factor, right? In all of us. And I have to deal with that myself, right? All the time. And so we, you know, secrets bolster your ego. If I am told I'm going to tell you something, but you can't tell Jesse, makes me feel important, right? So imagine a 30-year career as a senior intelligence officer

officer. You rise up through the ranks, right? And you get to be a GS-15 and you feel super special. Like I'm the only guy on the planet that knows all this stuff. And your ego is just ballooned up. And what you've got to do is you've got to pop the balloon every now and then. And if you're surrounded by the right people that will pop that for you, not burst it,

Just puncture it and let a little air out sometime and then maybe re-inflate it back and forth. But without that counterbalance, it can really lead you into some inaccurate assumptions. And that has certainly happened to me on more than one occasion. So I bring this into the conversation in the context of this threat narrative. And I really want to push back against the threat narrative idea.

And the fear that it generates. Yeah, this stuff's not, it's not a threat. I mean, unless there's some specific thing that we're doing now that threatens them, that is wholesale orders of magnitude worse than the creation of nukes, I don't see how it is a threat. Well, so my underlying thesis for what I present in the alien abduction book

uh, amnesty, not is that the abduction phenomenon is at the center of all of this. And so I want to, I want to bow down yet again, uh, for, to all of my heroic brothers and sisters in the intelligence, intelligence community, and thank them for their pessimistic point of view. They are inherently pessimistic and they have to be their whole career. Uh,

is based on briefing a commander with the worst possible case. So I want to counterbalance that and present a statistically based argument that 99% of the violent crime that is committed on this planet, not just the United States, globally, is committed by 1% of the population. So if you extrapolate from there, which is the only thing we can do unless somebody starts

divulging secrets and telling us otherwise, 99% of them are friendly, and there's only 1% that

Might be doing bad stuff to us. Now, the middle ground is the scientists, right? The veterinarians who come in and pluck us out of our bed, play with us, take me off my mountain bike, take me out of my bed after using the hurricane over my house and the cover to land, whatever they do. Yeah.

But that there's compassion there because they remove our memories so that we can get on with our lives. If I could remove my Labrador retrievers memory of every time I brought them to the vet, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Have you ever seen the movie The Shape of Water? Oh, yeah. So that's a great movie. Guillermo del Toro talks about sort of mid-century experiments of human-animal hybridization. And I have met somebody who's former DARPA. He said he could tell me this because it didn't end—this project that he was working on never got approved, never got—went through, but it was a submission that he made—

And it was, um, based on the work of this guy, Richard Goldschmidt, who is an alternative to Darwin. Um, you know, in the early 20th century is this German guy. And it was, uh, uh,

hopeful monsters. So it was like you had like, you know, like a tiger and a lion mate or something. Then you get a liger and in the liger's case, it dies off or whatever. But like every once in a while, you get these sort of hybrids that fulfill this specific ecological niche and

That lives on. And that's how you get these sort of punctuated equilibria, rapid speciation, you know, in the phylogenetic tree. That's how you get these jumps in evolution, which aren't really well explained in the pure Darwinian theory. And I found that fascinating. And I guess that never, you know, made it across the line. Do you think DARPA has ever experimented with human-animal hybrids or human-alien hybrids?

Uh, I, again, I've never been read in on anything, even a whisper of any of that. Uh, but that is consistent with DARPA's mission to do that type of research to ensure technological surprise for our country over our adversary. Do you know who? I don't know what I don't know. Have you ever heard the name Detlev Bronk by any chance?

So this guy was in charge of, quote unquote, alien autopsies back in the day. But then he went on to run the Rockefeller Foundation and he was president of Johns Hopkins as well. He's doing all sorts of medical stuff. And so do you ever wonder if some of our, you know, things implemented in our kind of medical industry or food industry are actually derived from sort of, you know, alien stuff? Two word answer. Yeah. Yeah.

Ontological relief. Do you think that Philip Corsa's narrative is correct, where like you have these metamaterials basically, you know, the sort of golden age of material science of, you know, the late 50s was a result of the Roswell materials being transferred to, you know, right pad. And then he was actually in charge of doling it out to kind of civil side commercial use cases.

So that book was fascinating. And I think I purchased it either, I don't know if it was at the same time. No, I think it was after. I think I bought it when I was at Socom. So another, so speaking of books, before I bought Corso's book, I bought with the streamers book community, which is another anomalous behavior factor. It's not as strong behavior.

as the mountain bike or the bruises on the arm, but it is an anomalous one, independently corroborated, because my daughter and I were meeting my wife and my older daughter. This is right around the same time as the mountain bike time. We're cutting through the mall, and we go through at Barnes & Noble, and we're late. And so we're hustling along, and I happen to glance as we're cutting through at

And I freeze in my tracks, like solid frozen. And I am paralyzed with fear. And the hair is standing up on my arms. And I'm staring over at the wall to my right. And it's with Lee Streber's book. It's the face, the communion face. And I've frozen my tracks. And the next thing I know, my daughter is tugging on my hand.

And unbeknownst to me, she had continued walking through the bookstore, gone out to the mall, wondered where the hell I was and came back and grabbed me. She's like, dad, come on, we're going to be late. And so I let her drag me out of the store. Essentially, we go back.

And so I make some excuse to my wife. I think they were buying school stuff, school clothes or whatever. So I came straight back to that bookstore and I bought the book and I immediately ripped the cover off and threw it in the trash before I walked out of the door. And it was, again, that weird anomalous behavior. And so I think it was a couple, a few years after that. It triggered you in some way. That I bought Corso's book. Right? And so...

And then at one point, we had a St. Patrick's Day party at DARPA, at our office. It was obviously 17 March. I think it was 17 March 2001. My wife and I had just separated, preparing for a divorce that she had asked for. And we had been on the rocks for a while. I had cheated on her earlier in my life.

uh, relationship. I just, you know, I wasn't a good husband. I'm a good dad. I was just testosterone filled warrior, you know, mentality, blah, blah, blah. I've, I've come around to sort of try to forgive myself for that. Uh, but in any case, uh, we were separated. And so I ended up staying the night instead of going home. She had moved in a basement and ended up getting hammered at this, at this, uh, St. Patrick's day party. I had, I had, uh,

Put on my man makeup, my camouflage green paint, right? And put on my fatigues, my jungle uniform to play around. And some people thought it was funny. Some people thought, whatever, dude. And so I ended up in this conference room with a couple other scientists who weren't program managers. They were on the support staff.

way smarter than me by any stretch of the imagination. And they started, I had this book in this conference room and it was Corso's book. And they're like, you don't believe that, do you? And I was like, well, wait a minute. So now I'm kind of attached to him. Now we're going to have a little exchange here. And I built up the case that DARPA was what Corso's original section under General Trudeau became.

that DARPA ended up as the conduit to break up all the component technologies and distribute them throughout the wonderful free enterprise industry

free market economy of the democratic United States. That's fascinating because DARPA was founded around, what, 57, 58 or something? 1958. It was right after it was allegedly the response to Sputnik. Oh, but you're saying maybe it was also a response to...

This, uh, uh, army guy, uh, Corso. All I'm saying is some anomalous material to dole out. If you read Corso's book and you read the history of DARPA, there is some really interesting. Any other, any other reasons to believe that any other correlations you can talk about? Um, yeah, there's a little smoke. Uh, it's not the dark black. There's flame is going to ignite any minute, but.

But something that struck me when I first reported in was, look, I'm a nug. Yeah, I got a master's degree in math and computer science from, you know, it wasn't probably upper tier in academia, the Colorado School of Mines.

Wasn't super well known, but in certain circles, it's very highly regarded. So, okay. But I don't have a PhD and I certainly don't know anything about the acquisition world, you know, how to contracts are let and all the rest of this. So as soon as I showed up, I asked my boss to go to this six month long program manager course to learn how to manage a program before I start doing it.

And he dismissed me out of hand right off the bat. And he said, you don't need that. This is just going to be OJT. It's on the job training. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense to me because I know everybody in all the regular national labs, Air Force Research Lab, Army Research Lab, Navy Research Lab. If you're a uniformed scientist, you have to go through the certification process just so you don't,

mismanage the taxpayer's money. You got to figure out how to go through contract evaluation and what's the source selection board comprised of. And you got to learn what you can commit to and what you can't commit to. And he's just going to blow that off. And then I come to find out that DARPA has an exception to the federal acquisition regulations, the FAR.

And that is why the other, all the other national labs despised DARPA because they had to go through this, you know, onerous bureaucratic process to get a contract out the door. That would take as much as six to 12 months.

Right. And so it was a nightmare. So it was almost like the concept that you were trying to bring to market was obsolete before it even arrived. But DARPA didn't have to go through all that. We had a shortcut and we could, we, we did use do source selections, but our stuff was out the door. I mean, that's why everybody loved it. And the magnitude of those contracts was, was huge. Right. So at that time, late nineties,

a portfolio of about $100 million. That, in the regular national laboratories, that was a brigadier general's level. That was like a PEO level of management. I had $130 million in my portfolio. Half was robots, half was this stealth program that was canceled a month after it became, again, for no reason. So that is consistent with what

Trudeau told Corso to do. Well, do you think... Just get the money out there. Do you think cancellation for no reason points to some sort of backdoor to some of these legacy UFO programs where you figured a certain thing out, you start working on it, and then all of a sudden... Again, no flame. Yeah. But this is super heavy, thick smoke. Mm-hmm. 2004. Mm-hmm. I'm a consultant.

working back for DARPA, getting paid way too much money again. And I turn on the evening news and there's Katie Couric. And she shows this video clip that she claimed to have received from Al Jazeera. And it shows a con a convoy of tanks somewhere in Iraq. I think maybe up near Tikrit, um,

And there's a Humvee. No, the lead element in this convoy was an Abrams M1 tank with like a plow on the front that was supposed to be able to deflect IEDs. So IEDs were just really becoming a big threat. And so a tank could run over an IED and nobody would die, right? So the tank's in the front and they're coming, they come around this, there's a,

kind of a serpentine route through this village. It's a compound. A lot of the Middle East has small walled compounds. And there was no gate. It was just open. And this tank comes screaming through. And I think it's followed by either another tank. But behind, I don't know if there's another tank. Maybe it's a Bradley fighting vehicle or armored personnel carrier. And then behind that is two Humvees. I just remember the Humvee in background.

So then it sort of screeches to a halt. There was no acoustics, but I could, you know, from my own time playing with tanks myself, I could almost hear the tracks grinding. It screeches to a halt, and it rocks a little bit. And then she is narrating the video, and she says, now watch the right side of your screen. And the right side of the screen is this pixelated image.

The only reason it gets your attention is she's accused you to look over there, and it's fuzzy. It's like pixelated. It's fuzzy. And it comes moving along this wadi, this ditch just outside the compound wall, and then it gets close to the tank, and then it's just a blob. And then as it maneuvers up onto the front of the tank, it's clear that it's two limbs.

And then two other limbs show, and this blob climbs up onto the tank and down into the gunner's hatch into the cupola. And she plays it like three times. Slow motion. Cephalopod invisibility. I'm like, holy crap.

So that's why my program was canceled. Somebody was already doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I thought. Well, sometimes I think DARPA like RFPs are like, we would love this to theoretically happen, but it's like, we're already work. We already know a lot about this and we're just going to give you a little limited information set and you can, you know, we'll see what you can do with it or whatever. So there's some sort of, and then I think it's original, maybe adding to the point that it does have to do with the UFO stuff.

one of the original projects was the Defender project, which was, you know, I'm not familiar with that. I believe it was like,

the beginning of drones back in the day. And you even have this story of this guy who was a lieutenant commander in the Navy. We spoke about him last night, Robert Luker, and Townsend Brown finding this green fireball material in Connecticut. And it seems to be decaying rapidly. And he thinks that maybe it's barium titanate.

and Project Moonwatch and Blue Book both want custody of it, but Brown just flashes his credentials, says, no, it's mine. And then he seems to coordinate with Robert Luker on this. And this is, again, 58. So it was right when DARPA had gotten started. And I think Luker was a part of DARPA back in the day. And it was maybe even called ARPA then? Yeah. For a time, DARPA was called ARPA. The idea was, let's get the D out of it and let's,

you know, pieces broken out all over. Let's, you know, swords into plowshares, this for a little bit. And then somebody decided, oh, we better put that genie back in the bottle and make it defense again. So, you know, that's, that's the yin yang, you know, the, the sine wave of, of politics and so forth. But, you know,

The reason I'm bringing this up is I certainly don't want to divulge anything that is going to put us at risk. Of course. But what's interesting about that is that the claim was that it was Al Jazeera that had sent this in. Right? Oh, so they were trying to out. It makes me wonder. All right? You just don't know. I mean, is this part – but here's the thing, you know.

Science as we know it. Yeah. But just saying we have the capability is not, you know, that's not all that. Well, I mean, here's the thing is if you can bend space-time, you can bend photons to come around the object and exit the same exact way, and that's your invisibility clip. So if you can bend space-time to the point that you can develop a warp drive that

You can make yourself, it's inherent in that capacity, that technology. And all you need is enough power to do it. So what takes it off of everybody's, you know, books, off of everybody's blackboard. The buried entry is the power limitation. Is the limitation of the power. But if you have enough power, and in Lou's book, he shows the warp bubble that he and Hal Pudoff discussed. And so, yeah.

And even talk about, and so it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of conflict within the same pages. Yeah. Because at the one point he's saying, look, this is a threat because these things are splitting two F-18s. Yeah. And, you know, that is a threat to national airspace. We can't have these things moving around, blah, blah, blah, and colliding with our vehicles. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's, let's back up.

or move forward, depending on where you are in the book. And let's look at this warp bubble. Yeah. You specifically make a case that who's ever in this vehicle can slow time down. Right. It's just like, it's, it's relativity. Edgar Mitchell measured it on his watch. Right. Right.

And so for them, it's child's play, right? It's like everybody else is covered in molasses and we walk right around them. So there is no possibility of a collision.

Do you think that Edgar Mitchell had anything to do with legacy UFO efforts? You know, he's Apollo 14 astronaut who came back from the, on his way back from the moon, had almost like a conversion experience and then delved deep into consciousness and it was very high conviction in aliens. And yeah. Well, I've anecdotal smoke here. What's that? I have anecdotal smoke. I was diving around.

on the Aquarius Reef Base with a NASA flight surgeon who remained unnamed. And somebody, while we were riding, it takes like three hours to get out there from Key Largo. And I don't know if it was right then or when we were down inside the base, but somebody asked him about this upcoming reunion of Apollo astronauts. And I think he suggested that

that nobody wanted to have anything to do with Edgar Mitchell. And it was like he was ostracized. And he, the flight surgeon, was all about it. He was taking their side against Edgar Mitchell. And I'm like, what is all this? From Kelly Sherrill's Moriarty, what's with all the negative waves, right? I don't understand why that. But I got the impression that

Inside the astronaut corps, there was this agreement that you don't talk about Fight Club. Right? You don't talk about the ETs that we have all seen. Again, speculation. But that's what I took away from that.

story that he told it was either in the base or while we were riding back to key largo on the way back that he told that story and that has always stuck in my head yeah that was circa 2000 i think it was the summer of 2008 well yeah james fox great you know ufo documentarian almost had well is buzz aldrin's sister buzz aldrin obviously second person to walk on the moon along with neil armstrong and

He apparently would tell his sister that not only did he see a Foo fighter in Japan as a fighter pilot, but that he saw UFOs, you know, on the way to the moon. And James Fox followed the guy all around the world. Eventually, like, you know, they were in Monaco together and he was about to interview him. And Buzz Aldrin said, you know, what would my testimony ever do? Not denying that he had seen UFOs, but like backing out last second, you know.

And he's also, I don't know, there's some interesting stuff there. So that's fascinating. Final thing I want to get into with you is you have this fascinating theory that

And what's fascinating in that you've sort of, you know, made very clear to me is that there are all these UFO crashes pre-Roswell that are pretty well documented. And not only, you know, in Lombardy in Italy, the one that Dave Grush talks about, the Magenta crash, but ones in the U.S. and Cape Girardeau being kind of a famous case of that. And you track those UFO crashes to some of the high powered radar capabilities that maybe we were developing at the time.

Well, so between February of 2014 and September of 2014, I was without a job waiting for the Air Force human resources world to bring me on board. And I was enormously frustrated because I had already extended by six months. I had to take a leave of absence from graduate school to take care of my mom.

And so they knew that I was going to graduate. And I'm wondering, so in the six months while you're waiting for me to defend this dissertation, why aren't you getting whatever you need to do so that as soon as I graduate, I want to get to work? So I had seven months, six months to just. So I ended up diving deep into this literature over here. So I come across the Cape Girardeau case.

which essentially is a scenario where something crashes in a farmer's field in Missouri, Cape Girardeau. And the weirdness about it was that there was bodies, small diminutive bodies that

a reverend or a priest was asked to come deliver last rites to, because apparently one of them was still alive. And so the account of this is primarily from the priest's story of this. And initially there were firefighters, and then military folks showed up. So on my drive across country to report into Air Force Research Lab in Dayton, Ohio, I

I stopped in Cape Girardeau, had some time to kill, didn't need to be there for a couple of days. I was ahead of schedule. And so I stopped in and became familiar and walked the ground and so forth. And then it occurred to me that I was only about a five-hour drive, depending on how much lead is in your foot, from there to Wright-Patterson. And then it dawned on me that, well, if something was –

interdicted in the vicinity of Wright-Patterson. And if it was traveling fast enough, it could have crashed right there. And so I had read Corso's account and a lot of other accounts beyond Phil Corso. Stanton Freeman wrote a book, investigated a lot of Roswell, a lot of folks. Don...

Oh, I'm drawing a blank. Don Schmidt. And a lot of folks that really, and so there was quite a bit of evidence that maybe radar played a role in it. So I could easily imagine a few years earlier, right, before World War II was spinning up, I know what R&D is like pre-warfare, right, because that's what DARPA does. And I'm imagining folks trying to,

improve the latest breakthrough in technology. But it was a sensor. Radar was a sensor. It was not an anti-aircraft anything. And so I could easily imagine folks just cranking up the power as high as they could, not to shoot anything down, but to extend range. And in the process of extending range, unbeknownst to me, unbeknownst to them, this invisible thing in the sky you can't even see,

Next thing you know, that thing's wobbling and it crashes four or five hour drive away. And so I have no trouble believing that that is what occurred, not just in Cape Girardeau, but maybe in Italy as well, because Marconi was involved in, you know, when you look at the... Where was Marconi? Was it Northern Italy? No, well, Marconi was...

I think he was an electrophysicist early on, right? I know, but I'm wondering because the crash was in Lombardy in Northwestern Italy. Yes, I don't know. I'd be curious where he was working. That would be a wonderful research project to see if there were any radars within a five-hour drive of there. That's fascinating. Oh, wow. So that would make sense, right? Because...

This was the advent of radar technology early on. And so what makes sense to me is that someone within the Army Air Corps, right, because it's still Army at that point, realizes, holy crap, if we're going to start cranking up the power, we got to make sure that if we shoot anything down, it doesn't land in an urban area.

So let's move this whole fricking arrangement out to the middle of desert somewhere. White sands would be a natural place to do that. Right. And then we're cranking up the power again. And the next thing you know, we shoot down a flying saucer happens to be during a storm. Right. So maybe it was lightning. Maybe it was the radar and the lightning. Who knows? But that's, that's the smoke of speculation around that. That makes sense to me. It connects the dots. Right.

John, what do you want the world to know and where do you hope things go from here on the UFO disclosure front? I just launched a website to host a couple, a few books. What's the website? And by the way, 55% of the proceeds of those books goes to PTSD treatment for either veterans, law enforcement, firefighters,

whether or not it's a direct result of the 20 years of warfare after 9-11. That's the robotics book. That's what that is dedicated to.

And the abduction book that I'm going to present the thesis to you for, that goes to experiencers, especially military experiencers. I want to get them treatment with either hypnotherapy or whatever to help them deal with that trauma. So it's more than the tithing that folks typically do at church. I feel like it's got to be a bigger chunk, right? More than half. Yeah.

So anyway, the underlying thesis of that book is just to fight fear. So the website is fearfighter.net, I think is what we have. And it's just starting up. So we should be able to accept pre-orders for the book on that. But the basic thesis of the book is

Abductions are the elephant in the UAP room. It is the reason for all the secrecy because lights in the sky isn't scary enough. That's not going to result in, in the, the destruction, the collapse of society, even divulging that there are some beings on these vessels, these vehicles that,

that are living beings or maybe they're biological robots, but we have their footprints on the ground. So Coral, New Mexico, 1964, J. Allen Hynek saw them. And that's what flipped him into, into believing that these, at least that there are beings to where they're from. Who knows? So none of that's scary enough to justify the,

Harming fellow military folks to keep it a secret. Yeah, it's ridiculous. It has to be too scary. And what is scary enough for me to forgive everybody in the legacy cabal that's been harming our folks and mistreating our own service members. This is what I'm blowing the whistle on. Like I said, I've never been read into anything. But I know.

that they have been tortured and mistreated and separated. The corrosive nature of this compartmentation is denying our military personnel the resilience that they deserve. Because the best way to deal with PTSD is to talk about it with each other. And yet, what do they do with Terry and Toby? Split them. Reassign them. You can't talk to each other.

What do they do with Mario Woods and Michael Johnson? Same thing. Yeah. We don't even know where Michael Johnson is. Yeah. You see, it's replete throughout. And so AFOSI, for me to forgive Richard Doty and all those folks that... This is the Air Force Office of Special Investigation. Air Force Office of Special Investigation. They run rampant throughout all the stories where they're clearly part of kind of suppressing these stories. Right. And arguably...

were instrumental in Paul Benowitz's suicide. Yes. If you dive into that whole case. So that's horrific behavior. And so it has to be something enormously compelling for me to forgive them. So in a manner that I am willing to forgive my parents for demanding that I partake in the Santa Claus conspiracy, I want the government to admit

that they could not protect us from the abductors. And that's hard to do. And I recognize that. But suck it up, world leaders. This is why you get paid the big bucks. This is what guys used to tell me. Hey, boss, that's why you get paid the big bucks. Sucks for you. But you got to admit when you've screwed up. And then I'll be willing to entertain amnesty for you rather than stringing you up

for the murders that you either inspired or at the bare minimum condoned in trying to keep this a secret. So that's the underlying aspect. And the key is the notion behind Fear Fighter is, look, the best way to deal with fear is not to stay all warm and cozy in your cocoon of false belief. You got to get out of that cocoon.

Educate yourself.

and choke out that fear like a freaking MMA fighter. You got to wrestle it to the ground and choke it out. And the best way to do that is to educate yourself. So you don't have to be Lou Elizondo or Dave Grush or Carl Nell or Jay Stratner or any of those folks. You don't have to get read in. There is an abundance of literature that I am claiming overlaps with

And so I know these guys get frustrated with me because they're like, how come your jaw isn't dropping? Dude, there is nothing that you have told me even post 2017 that I haven't already read before. In fact, I could probably make your jaw drop with some of the stories either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. And so that's my message is fight the fear through education and awareness. And what trumps all of this is,

is what the bug, Dr. Bug told me, which is we can't take your soul. And so life after death is a scientifically proven fact. And so even if you get, you get grabbed by these guys and they rip you to shreds, there's going to be some pain, but they ain't going to get your soul. And you might come back around and be empowered to do the same to them.

But you shouldn't because you'll learn from that mistake that love is the answer. It's just like Jake Barber said, that's the answer. And so I'm calling for ontological relief, but you got to come clean first and admit that you can't defend this. Or admit that, well, this reverse engineering stuff, yeah, we've been doing it, but it was for the right reasons because we wanted to defend you. And now we can't.

And I think that's why this trickle has really opened the faucet. And it's a turn at a time now. It took 80 years, you know, and now it's really opening the faucet. And I think it's because the reverse engineering has been successful enough. You do? Yeah. Do you think we can fly these things? I don't know about that. I don't have any. You think it's, but modern aerospace has benefited greatly, like, you know, a lot of our...

top of the line aerospace you know or stealth fighters or whatever from from the the brilliant minds that i was blessed to interact with at darpa i i had no reason to call ben rich a liar wow

Well, what a beautiful note to end on. I really appreciate you, John. This was awesome. A lot of fun. Thank you. And thank you for the risk that you have accepted on behalf of your fellow humans. Oh, yeah. Because what you're doing is really, really important. I appreciate that. That's part of that education. Yeah. You're stretching those minds. It's just like any athletic endeavor. Yeah. You got to stretch. You are too. It's a team stretching effort. Well, thank you, man.