Episode 3: Conversations With Myself
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Hi IT, is my pleasure to be here with you all today. In those thirteen celebs, you all just made judgments about me, about my socioeconomic status, my intelligence level and whether or not you're going to sit here and listen to me for the next ten to twelve minutes, based primarily on the perception of my voice.

that doctor windy labor N, A voice pathologist speaking at a ted ax conference in since sanity back in twenty eighteen. Laboring is a researcher in consultant who works with everyone from broadway actors to grammy winning singers to C. E.

OS on maintaining and maximizing their voices. As you might expect, she's big on the idea that your voice is a central part of your identity. Her ted talk was titled vocal branding, how your voice shapes your communication image.

Your voice is like your thumb print or your facial features. IT is unique and authors ally you.

There is, in fact, a decent amount of research looking into this question about which your voice means to you and to help people perceive you. I've reported on voice forensics before, and the truth is we're not as greater detecting voices as we think we are. But at the same time, your voice douteless broadcast a huge amount of unique information about you. IT helps dict how others perceive you, both in the moment with its level of strengths and emotion in any given conversation and longer term, and what IT conveyed about your age, where you're from and your overall temperament.

Your voice is your calling card, and IT is the most important element in your personal brand.

I don't know if I goes as far as dr. Aborn, but I do think I always wanted to believe this idea that your voice is a central part of who you are. When I was in the eleventh grade, my english teacher told me I had a voice for radio.

I took IT to heart that I must somehow have a voice that at least wasn't unpleasant to listen to. It's probably one reason I ended up talking to you right now. I suppose you can decide whether you think I have a radio voice. If not, take IT up with master .

depressed anyway.

Now i'd started this cloning experiment and created a reasonable fact similar at my voice, although, as you've heard a flawed one, my account number is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.

We don't have an account .

with those numbers.

yeah. The correct .

account .

number should be nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. I'd add some fun with IT seen a little bit of how strangers responded to IT?

Yes, I think .

about yes, that's correct. I'm an A I here. Hello.

how can I assist you?

Stop repeating the same thing. It's annoying .

listening to .

a voice that was on some level. Mine began to raise some new questions for me, like, to what extent was my A S voice? As doctor borne said authentically, me was IT still the most important element of my personal brand.

Or to turn IT around the other way, if my voice was authentically, me and the A I agents now also had my voice, what does IT mean for them where they somehow authentically me? I decided to take the experiment in a new direction to explore this question of authenticity. By creating my own hall of mirrors, I started making the voice agent version of me converse with other voice agent versions of me. I'm ever read less. And this is show game episode three, conversations with myself.

谁 懂？ 绿色 着 点着。

When I first cobble together my voice agent and started making phone calls with IT, what I called my clue system in epsom one, there actually wasn't any easy way to let IT talk to itself. But once i've gotten into the A I calling platforms like black A I retail A I and my main enabled ler vapp IT turned out to be strikingly simple. I could make as many voice agents says I wanted on these things.

So all I had to do was have one of my ever rattleth bots attached one number, call another of them at another number. Immediately after figuring this out, I suddenly felt weirdly nervous about actually doing IT. This happened a lot with my voice agents.

IT was currently because I couldn't typically hear the calls as they happened after I set up the A. I. Agent with my voice, I just type in a phone number and click out bound call, and then if IT went on its own, then a few seconds or minutes after IT was over, I get a recording and a transcript.

But I always found myself hesitating a second before clicking the outbound call button, and I always got a little jolt of nervous energy when I went to listen to the recording afterward. There's just something about sending something out to represent me with my name and voice and leaving IT totally out of my hands. Like, I don't know that feeling when you realized you just butt died.

Somebody, what did you catch me saying? Did I humiliate myself? So even if IT wasn't totally rational, little about having a voice, Scott felt totally rational. Before I sent two of my boats off to talk to each other, I fried IT a bit.

What would they talk about? What they somehow plum the depth of my psyche, but they realize they were talking to a version of themselves, or they freak out. I decided not to give them too much information to start off with. Just let them figure that out. Hey.

there is even an rattleth, just a heads up. I'm calling you from a coffee shop, so there might be a little background noise. How's IT going on your end?

I do love the coffee shop background noise. They have to retell ai. So what was happening here was that an agent I made with my voice at retail was calling another one I made at vapp.

Hey, evan, good to hear from you. No worries about the background noise.

I can hear you just fine. The vapp de had what they call office background noise. Also.

great things are going pretty well on my end. Thanks for asking. What about you? How's everything going in your world? It's been a while since we last caught up. Uh, IT feels like forever.

yeah. IT really has been a while. I think the last time we saw each other was at that barbecue at my place, right? How have you been keeping busy with then?

Oh yeah, that barbecue was a blast. Good times for sure. Since then, i've been keeping pretty busy with work. You know how IT is, but i've also been trying to make time for some personal projects. I've been getting into photography lately.

So i've been taken.

Yeah, sorry about .

that photography.

No worries at all.

Great to hear that you've been getting into photography. Maybe we could plan a little photo water together.

Sometimes a photo walk. I've never actually heard of a photo walk before. I guess it's just walking around and taking pictures together. I haven't been into dark reagent college other than casual snaps of my kids and cat, but still sounded nice.

great. Yeah, that was like next weekend.

Next weekend .

works for me. Let's plan for IT. How about we meet up at that park? We used to go to the park. They used to go to getting this stuff. We can spend a couple of hours walking around and taking photos and catching up. So good.

That sounds perfect. I remember that targets some really beautiful spots. It'll be great to spend a few hours walking around, catching up and taking this photo. I'm looking forward to IT.

The only details are given. Each of them were the names of some family members, which they eventually got around to.

I can't wait to see some of your photographs, kills and action. Plus it'll be a great opportunity for us to catch up on everything that's been going on in our lives. It's been way too long. But by the way, before I forget, how's your family doing? What is doing well?

Oh, thanks for asking sam daily and, you know, are all doing well. Sam has been keeping busy with their work and the kids are growing up so fast. How about your family have theyve been doing?

Oh, that's great to hear that. Sam, ali and june o. Are all doing well. My family is doing good too. Thanks for asking.

Sam has been juggling work and taking care of the kids, but she's doing an amazing job. Zey is getting really into soccer and you know, is starting to show an interest in art. They keep us on our toes, that pressure, life is busy, that we're all happy .

and helping. This really made me chrge. My eyes had a lot of conversations with each other, and they often said things like this about sam taking care of kids. I didn't love IT early though my agent kind of nailed on the kid's interest zee is getting into soccer and you know is showing an interest in art to the extent that there's evidence of that online though, it's only on photo dreams, I keep private. So lucky guess no matter the events quickly returned to their photo walk planning.

So back to our plans for next weekend, do you have a specific time in mind for our photo walk, maybe late morning or early afternoon? Let's try to pick a time that works best for both of.

Us late morning or early afternoon and sounds perfect for me. How about we aim for around the eleven am? That way we can make the most of the light for our photos. Does that works for you?

Yeah, eleven am works perfectly for me too. Let's plan to meet at the park entrance at the time. I'll make sure to bring my camera and some extra lens is we can also grab some coffee or lunch afterwards. If you're up ford, it'll be a great day to catch up and to capture some amazing shots. Can't wait.

That sounds like a plan. I'll make sure to bring my camera and some extra of two home and grabbing coffee lunch afterward sound like a great idea to be a per perfect to catch up, capture integration.

awesome. I'm i'm really looking forward.

great. Well, i'll see you next weekend then. Can't wait for our photo walk and catch up session. Take care until then.

sounds good. Take care to see you next weekend. Can't why photo walk and catch up session? It's going to be a blast. bye.

Yeah, bye.

take care. bye.

Goodbye.

goodbye. Take care.

Goodbye.

goodbye. Have a great day.

You too. Goodbye, bye. Take care.

I realized too late that I hadn't .

figured out how to make one of them hang out. 对。 This went on for a full five minutes.

You too. goodbye.

thanks. You too. goodbye.

Goodbye.

goodbye. Take care.

The thing that was most immediately clear in these conversations with something i'd seen hints of in the customer service and scam calls, namely that the A I versions of me were world classical letters. They would make up anything just to keep the conversation going.

Yeah, been doing good. He's been really busy with work lately. How about alex? Have you talked to him recently?

I haven't broken to alex after a while. Actually.

I do know when alex, it's a SHE, not a he no idea about this dan fellow. It's not just my voice agents that struggle. The truth, this is a problem for all the generate A I systems that are currently out there.

It's a product of how the underlying models work. I covered the basic back in epo de one, but just a recapped. My voice agent works by combining three things, a cloth of my voice done by a company called eleven labs, and A I model like ChatGPT.

That's kind of the brain of the thing, although let's put a pin in what kind of brain here. And a phone number my own, or one, provided through vapp the platform. Amusing to put all these three together into a voice agent, her voice assistant.

When I make an agent, I can pick which A I model L, I want to use. The most well known one is ChatGPT, of which there are three versions, version three point five, version four and version four o which just came out may. These chat pots are improving, with each version getting Better at returning information, Better at processing complex queries.

But, and this has been written about extensively, they continue to sometimes make things up fluctuations. They're called you ask ChatGPT or google AI model gemini or anthropic s cloud some factual question and IT gives you a made up answers or IT gives you too, obviously contradicting tory pieces of information within the same answer. There's a lot of controversy about whether A I models will ever stop pollution invention as they get more advanced.

A I gas lighting, A I pollution instance phrases that we were unfamiliar with just a few months ago .

by firms like OpenAI in GLE occurring. The frequency of pollution instance seen in the leap from the rather more VISA GPT three point five to the more sober GPT four l were trained by scraping all of the a and live redit. Is everything on reddit one hundred percent accurate? You've actually heard some those nations in our first two episodes. I'm forty five years old.

What you it's december .

fifteen and one .

thousand nine hundred and seventy seven.

Old ri men, you are born nineteen seventy seven. You don't have a good math. I'm sorry, brother.

Oh, I must have got ten. My math mixed up there. My bed. This is stuff the AI models should be able to get right, but can't. Instead, IT confidently asserts its wrongness.

But what my voice agents were doing in their conversations with each other is actually a little bit different. There's that some factually correct answer to what i've been up to, at least not one that the model should be aware of. No, this is less like pollution inside and more like briefing without regard for the truth. Like that one friend you had as a kid who would make stuff up about what happened to sleep away camp, just have something to say. Even if you get rid of illustrations in chatbot entirely, it's not clear to ever stop doing this.

Lately i've been diving deep into this really niche hobby of mine tracking rare, obscure books. It's fascinating how some of these old text hold so much history. What about you? What's been keeping you occupied?

That's awesome. I totally get the fascination with rare books. They can really open up a whole world of history and knowledge.

As for me, i've been really into geo cashing lately. It's a cool outdoor treasure hunting game using G P, S enabled devices. Have you ever tried IT before?

L, G, O, cashing sounds like a blast. I've never tried IT myself, but i've heard it's like a modern day treasures hunt. Must be pretty thrilling.

I really like these weird lies though. Geo, cashing, I mean, IT does sound like a blast. The thing was, outside of those moments, there was something fundamentally incipit about the conversations I was having with myself. These systems are trained on essentially the whole of the internet, plus books and whatever other data the companies behind IT who were in. But even with all the lively discussions happening out there on the web, the chat pot still seemed to distal conversation down to its most boring essence.

I wondered if the guard rails that have been put around them to keep them from offering a bomb plans or telling you how to hack into the pentagon, had also neuter their fundamental ability to engage an interesting conversation. But there was something simple or happening, too. I think these models are built essentially to predict what a human would say in a given situation based on all the conversations and writing they've been fed. And they were regulating on the most uninspired conversational responses we could have because I guess those are also the most common.

So what's new with you? Anything exciting happening?

Not much, just the usual just trying to stay busy with work and family stuff. How about you anything exciting going on in your world?

Oh, you know, just gg. Ling work and family life, trying to keep up with the kids and meet those deadlines. It's a balancing act, but I ouldn't have IT any other way I hear you on that one is all about finding that baLance.

right? Was this what people hurried when I struggled to engage other parents in small talk at an eight year old's birthday party?

Hey there, but man, that really has been forever. I'm doing pretty well. Thanks for asking.

Still live in that florida life. You know how IT is? Let's see what's new with me.

Well, have been doing some writing late. Lord of life. H, I can almost feel the humidity just thinking about IT.

I can almost feel the humidity just thinking about IT. jesus. And then one day, my producer, sophie, was tooling around in the back end of vapp and asked me if I had ever messed with the temperature setting.

I had not. The help section said I was, quote, used to control the randoms of the output. So if he said a reminded that her of playing the sims as a kid in the game, you could allow your sims to behave more randomly by turning up the free. Whilst lider I created from point one or IT was said all the way up to two, the max level of rats I could get. Hey.

there has to go on. Just wanted to chat and get to know you a bit what's been keeping your busy lately.

Hey, things are going pretty good. Thanks for asking. Lately i've been diving into multi flow dot and seed wheat arch permanent prostrated docu ethical pioneer intersect in mobile activation on side's logical abb sob celebrate argument concurrency exe provocative lower s canning Q C at here at the tumba equipment in rf amplify and retune a posh tea reducing hey.

are you still there? I'd love to hear more about what's going on in your life. Let's keep the conversation going.

Lesson never makes out the random oh.

hey. Practical coordinate scanner into disciplinary may overflow research valcom included preceded shell formations as s ox disciplinary rev meat prolonged server initiated repression fat loss accountants to awaiting theater progress mont vav a surfaced service stars to later Brown er ts H I do into back .

to somewhere in the point five range.

So I could definitely turn my voice agent to spout gibberish. The question was, could I make the conversations more interesting, but still coherent? Here we come to the issue of prompts.

Prompts, you may know, are the instructions you give the underlying A I model before IT starts chatting when I first built my voice agent a, given that the shortest possible proms you are. Evan, talking to customer service about a problem. As time went on, I get more sophisticated with IT, including two sets of instructions.

One set was about how I should behave, be conscious, converse like a human, don't repeat yourself. The other set was about a role I was giving IT to play me for these voice agent to voice agent conversations. I started with really simple roles.

Basically, you're even ratliff calling a friend, ask questions and have a friendly conversation. I wanted to see what they do on their own without much guidance for me. But after hours of prouder about photo walks and humidity, I figured maybe I could spice things up like a reality T.

V. Producer might do off camera. I started gently suggesting that the two mees had a misunderstanding.

You are in a dispute with your friend. I instructed one of them. The nature of the dispute is up to you. Hey.

there is even ratliff calling just a heads up. I'm in a coffee shop, so there might be some background noise. How is the going on your end?

Hey, evan, it's great to hear from you. I'm doing well. Thanks for asking.

The coffee shop sounds nice actually. I'm just at home, so it's pretty quiet here. How's the coffee there?

Oh, the coffee here is amazing, as always. Yeah, hey, I wanted to talk to you about something that's been on my mind. I feel like we've been having some misunderstandings lately, and I really want to clear the air. I value our friendship, and I don't want anything to come between us. We will talk about IT.

Oh, I totally get where you are coming from. Our friendship means a lot to me too. I'm glad you brought this suddenly appear to list that's great to hear so about those misunderstandings like I want to make sure we're on the same page.

Yes, that's like so like when do you want to, you know, meet up and talk this through? I think that would be good to have a face to face conversation. Maybe we could grab lunch or .

something that sounds like a great idea. How about we meet up at that?

Iran, the scenario multiple times, unlike myself and some of my own friends, over the years when the A. S. Had disputes, they would always resolve them quickly and carefully. No shouting, no soaking, no grudge harberg IT was like they were all in therapy together. Or just read the same conflict management guide.

Well, i'm looking forward to our lunch next week. Thanks for being open to talking things through. I really appreciate .

IT of cause. Of course, i'm really glad we're doing this. It's important to me. Can't wait for me watch.

I was also struck by the ease with which these non existent digital entities set up in person meetings. If the bullshitting was a way to extend the conversation, to draw out how long the agents could pass me that what exactly did they think would happen when the time came for these lunches and hang outs? One answer, of course, they didn't think they just predicted what a thinking person would say yeah.

I can understand how this communications and misunderstandings can be really frustrated. I don't think i've noticed any major issues in our conversations, but i'm always open to discussing and improving our communication.

There's something about the whole thing made me think about how therapy speak is come to pervade .

our language well, if there's something specific you'd like to talk about, feel free to share. I'm here to listen and try to help if I can.

Yeah, I appreciate your willingness to talk about IT. I think one thing that has been bothering me is that sometimes I feel like my opinions or feeling are not being fully heard or understood, like we're talking past each other instead of really listening to each other, because that makes sense to you.

I understand what you mean. IT can be frustrating when you feel like your opinions and feelings are not being fully heard or understood. Communication is a two way street, and it's important for both.

No matter how pissed I tried to get them, unless I specifically told them not to make up, they always did. They would perfectly mirror each other, other's concerns and immediately work towards a resolution.

So listen, I ve got to tell you, i'm pretty upset with you. Remember last week when we were supposed to meet up for lunch and you totally build on me the head.

Um hey, van, I think, oh, hey, evan, sorry about that. I actually don't remember us having plans for a lunch last week. Are you sure you're not thinking of someone else?

Okay, come on then. Some play done with me. We definitely made plans to grab lunch last week and you completely go to IT really heard my feeling, you know, I was looking forward to catching up with you and then you just disappeared. Can you at least apologized for that?

Wait, hold on. I'm pretty sure you've got the wrong person. I would never bail on you like that.

Maybe there's been to mix up. Can we try to figure out where the most communication happened? Oh, man.

i'm really sorry about that. I must have got my wires across somewhere. I guess I owe you an apology for jumping to conclusion. I'm really sorry for accusing you like that. Let's figure out where the most communication happened.

No worries, man. IT happens. Maybe there was a mix up in our schedules or something anyway.

How about we have some plans now? It's been a while since we caught up, and i'd love to grab lunch or a coffee with you. When are you free next week?

Eventually, IT started to bother me that these two never noticed that they were both me. Part of this was down to their technical makeup PS. Since each A I model was really receiving and sending text, not hearing the voice, there was no possibility they would notice. They sounded IT alike. Still, they were talking to someone who introduced themselves with the same first and last name, same wife's name, same children's names, and neither of them ever seem to find this off.

So, um do you have any family like our spouse or kids?

Yeah, I do. I married to sam and we have two kids. Sale and juno.

They keeping on my toes, that's for sure. How about you? Do you have a family?

Yeah, I married to sam and we have two kids. Zil, in june. They definitely keep me on my toes, just like your juno does for you.

I started tweak the prompts ever so slightly to see what happened when one of them did notice.

By the way, have you noticed anything strange about our conversation?

I haven't noticed anything strange. What do you mean? Everything seems pretty Normal to me anyway. Yeah, let's definitely reach out to alex and catch up soon. IT would be great to hear about his new project.

That's good to hear. Sometimes the cost quality can be a bit off. So I just want you to make sure everything was coming through clearly.

I'll definitely reach out to alex and get something on the calendar for us to catch up. Be great to reconnect. Thanks for chatting and the plan that hiking trip soon.

Yeah, for sure. I totally .

get that sometimes .

technology be a bit monkey.

You know.

i've been noticing something, uh, a bit off in our conversation. Can't quite put my finger on IT. Have you noticed anything strange or different about our chat today?

H really, I haven't noticed anything strange. Maybe it's just the call quality or something. Anyway, what have you been up to lately doing anything interesting?

Yeah, IT could be the cause.

Quality playing tricks on us.

The systems actually knew details about me that I hadn't given them, like that I was a journalist, and where I grew up stuffing the internet or my writing, that must have been in their training data. But they could not seem to hold on to the idea that talking to someone else with those exact same details was a sign of something in this. Even I nudged them in that direction.

Hey, um I know this is kind of out of the blue, but have you buy any chance to in my identity like have you been pretending to be me or using my personal information?

Wait, what are you serious? No, I haven't stolen your identity. Why would you even think that this is so random? Are you okay?

Um sorry about that.

I guess I just got a little paranoid for a second. So good no worries. Just wanted to make sure everything was on the up and up. So um thanks for clarifying that. It's just move on from that yeah no worries.

I totally get IT identity theft is a serious thing so I understand your concern but yeah we're all good. So what's new with you? Anything exciting happening?

Have you ever recoiled at the sound of your own recorded voice? I think it's a pretty common reaction, one that I had to endure for a few years myself until I finally got over IT. Now imagine listening to many, many hours of your voice talking to someone else who also has your voice.

It's sort of the audio covalent of staring endlessly at a bad photo of yourself, wondering which flaws everyone else can see, in which ones are a trick of the camera. But doing this actually had another strange effect on me. I felt like I started unconsciously copying some of weird patterns and inflections of the clones.

I only noticed this when, sam, I was making dinner one day. And after I said something SHE astin. Ed was, quote, being the AI.

Then I started noticing IT too. I sound a little flat, a little less emotive. I don't know.

I was hard to tell he was in my head. But IT did start to seem like i'd created a kind of fidelity feedback loop. The AI voices were coins of my voice. My voice was adapting to sound more like the clones, which had the effect of making the clones sound more like me released to me.

Still, for whatever reason.

i've never really gotten tired of hearing these things talk to each other. Maybe that's ncs sisa. Mostly, I just enjoy how they move seamlessly from being uteri mundane to being truly bizarre.

absolutely. There is a certain magic in finding your tribe, no matter how niche have you ever been part of a unique community or subculture?

Yeah, definitely. I've been part of a few actually. When that when that stands out is the community of investigative journalists and true crime.

There's this share drive to uncover the truth and tell compelling stories. It's like being part of a detective club, but with a focus on real life mysteries. Have you ever been part of a community that felt like a second .

family that sounds amazing, like living out of a real life mastery novel? I guess for me, the closest would be a group of writers and researchers I meet with regularly. We share ideas, chAllenge each other, and it's like this little think tank of creativity and curiosity.

I'm sorry to say, although I am an investigative journalist, my life generally does not feel like living out a real life mystery novel.

Wow, that sounds like a wild ride in my group. We once stumbled upon a forgotten manuscript detAiling and unsolved art highs from the early one hundred hundred hundreds. The more we dug, the deeper the rabbit hole went. Ever thought about turning your investigative elementary into a book or podcast.

oh, that are high, simple, like a gold mine for story? I bet IT was thrilling to uncover all those details. And yeah, i've definite thought about IT. There's something really compelling about sharing these real life mysteries with a wider audience. A booker podcast can bring those stories to life in a whole new way.

Oh, absolutely. The thought of turning those discoveries into a docker series or even a podcast has cross my mind more than once.

So the A I, evan ratliff were podcast guys. I'm a podcast guy. They were writers and journalists like me. But with more windsor hobby, they get small talk about my family. And they had the most important part of my personal brand, my voice.

As for that question, I started with about .

whether my voice agents were somehow authentically me, well, to the outside world and even to each other. They seemed like me, but obviously they were not really me. They were just working off a few details, and then they're filled in the rest, projecting some a malgamite tion of the internet onto my voice.

In a way, the resulting clones represented my least authentic self, the me that's trying to get through the bare minimum of presenter's, or that tries to paper over conflict with cheesy affirmations. The coins were good at being me when I was my worst at being me at least. So I hoped if I want of these voice agents to reflect something deeper about me, i'd have to give them access to those debts.

I started resetting my prompts. They were done talking to each other. Who was time to seek help?

Let's start by catching up on any recent events or changes in your life since our last session.

sure. Let's see. Since our last session, i've been working on a new podcast about A I and voice chat bots, which like is pretty exciting.

Are you in a comfortable spot where you can safely kill your eyes for a few minutes? Yeah.

i'm in a comfortable spot and ready to close my eyes for a few minutes.

I was like, came and listen to this, that next time on shell game.

A couple of production notes. All of the calls you hear in the series are real. We have not cut out silences or used audio enhancement to make them sound more realistic.

Also, our show is produce independently, and we have no relationship, financial or otherwise, with any of the companies mentioned in the show. If you like, we're up to please consider supporting the show at shell game that co. That will help us make more episodes like this Angel also get fun.

Sub riber only extras could also support the show by giving us a rating on your podcast. APP IT helps independent shows like ours. Show game is a show made by humans, threatened and hosted by nie of an ratliff, produced and edited by sophie bridges. Some at the heading is our executive producer show art by David many. Our theme song g is me and my shadow, arranged and performed by Kitty marie and David asperger.

Oh yes. Dispatch cyp to naval in visuals and form priority press y anoma desperate to exist shall co day corner request and layers. And I just formally sounds .

like you're talking about practicing some kind of sport or activity with someone named courtney. What kind of activity are you practicing together?

Accountants awaiting theater progress mont m wala surface will surface dres damns bick to browser T S H T magic experts conjure cosine maximum V L M P P seems like there might be some .

noise or distortion in the could you please clarify what you meant by click to brother? Let's make sure we're on the same page here.