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I had this vision of being a doctor and haven't made IT and everyone's happy and there's twenty of money to go around. And that simply was not my reality. And I realized that something you need to change some of IT was my minds at my elections.

And honestly, when I looked around, I didn't seem like doctors were interested in saving money all that match. But I needed to do that. Like, realistically, we needed to get more frugal.

So I looked around, I found the D. M. S. community. Then I found the choose I community in the financial independence community. There's all these people being frugal and really happy about.

Doctors have made IT. They got IT altogether. And we've talk to, in our community privately, doctors that have a gotten IT all wrong, and they are leveraged to the hilt.

They have dead out their eye balls, their house, poor life or have no gap. They look rich, but they are poor. And he charged to believe.

And is a problem out there. And I can lead to, for example, the higher suicide rate in directors as but that's a real issue. And financial freedom can free you from some of the stress that you're under when you golden handcuff to our profession. Not having student debt is a huge bonus.

So frugal is looking at thing's value and determining if that's what value to you, not how much of cost, but how much do I actually value. This is what it's Prices. Is that worth IT to me? right. And then making a decision on buying something or not buying something based on that versus cheap, cheap is only going for the lowest Price at all costs right at all times, just trying to pay as little as possible.

Welcome to catching up to fy, a podcast on mindset, money and life for late starters of any age on their journey to financial independence. I'm bill, and i'm a late starter.

I'm jackie, and i'm also a late starter. And where your host, we're here to help you on your journey to financial independence. No matter where you're starting.

we're going to talk to experts of the late starters and explore topics related to our mission.

Join us as we catch up to fire together .

and welcome .

back to the fire. And out my cold jacky, come, casey. And today we're onna talk about a few articles that we read recently with one of our dear friends dish, spath. But first, jacky, how are you doing today.

bill? I am doing awesome and I am excited for dishes. She's got so many cool things to talk about, and I just love and refreshing perspectives. So we're gonna a lot of fun with her today.

Yeah, I mean, we might get into some controversial stuff here. So bear are with us at me, or as two women, i'll see how that works. So let me introduce so I guessed so that you can understand who he is by day.

The traders ous path is an internal caring for her patients, physical and mental hell by night. My friend disher is known as the frugal physician. Her patient abbati here is generally the high income healthcare professional, but I would argue that much of our philosophy and was them, is applicable to all who seek financial enlightenment and freedom in their own words.

Quote, the verbal physician isn't just the platform, is your compass on the journey to designing your ideal life by empowering you to build financial freedom into your life through value base spending and wise and rest. This shall also host the finding. Financial freedom park is where SHE explores a range of topics, from budgeting and investing to debt management and long term financial planning.

SHE even had me as a guest on her show to discuss how to build well after fifty on episode twenty one. And guess what guys, she's pursuing her c fp. Now today on the show, we heard to talk about the few articles that we thought our community of aid starters would trying to be a huge value on your journey to fight.

The first will be the losers gained by Charles Alice. The second will be, why is lifestyle creep mostly a mid, really. And the third SHE may pire, fifty a year, and her husband make sixty. Here's how IT affects the relationship. Will see if we get through all this and there's much, much more to talk about todays so dish a welcome to catch up to fight.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so looking forward to this conversation. I'm a big fan of your podcast and all the work that you do and have to spin. So happy to watch you grow and a flower into the finance .

grow that you are .

now I .

know i'm just a mega phone for the problem to be face. And jack is joined me on this journey and I think we're really helping people. So you're right there. It's really gratified.

And as i've said before, the gratitude that i've received from what we've done with this show in our platform in some ways, farc city, the gratitude i've gotten as a position. So in twenty six years of practice. So and i'm sure you kind of feel the same way sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, the content mill and and anyone that's done this that has probably experienced that IT is difficult to keep shows going, make content every week, have that coming at you at all times but keeps you going is the people that really are so helped by you. They they reach out and they say thank you, right? And it's humongous and so gratifying and makes me want to keep going. That's why I really i've done this for about five, six years now. I can't believe it's been that long, and I hope to keep doing that for a long time just because that is so gratifying.

Well, I mean, you have your fingers and many pots. You actually a spouse, multiple streams of income. And you have this business, you have some realistic, you have two incomes.

And so may be we will talk about that a little bit too. You have three, seven streams of income and gives you sort of back steps. One of them goes away.

But anyway, you need to know who the frugal physician is. You need to narrow your origin story. You talked about starting five or six years ago. Who is that and why did I start?

okay. So I was actually born in india, and I grew up there for the first ten years. Ten years of my life, I had a dt who was a pharmacy, who was an entrepreneur.

He had his own pharmacy lab testing business. He worked really hard and a medical distribution business. And my grandfather was the financial, I guess, officer, the deputy collector of the city.

So kind of, he was a pretty higher, I guess, political professional. So he was the guy, if, for finance of the city. So him and my grandmother really taught me a lot of why is financial thought early on, and they were well off.

And I benefit from that in india. And my parents, like I had worked very hard. My mom was a teacher, and then he was, he would go help my dad at the pharmacy.

Well, unfortunately, tragedy struck. My dad worked very hard and burn himself out, and ended up committing suicide when I was ten. Trigger alert. I guess I should say that. Sorry, sorry.

You built up the issue and other shows and I think to hear how often IT comes off, it's fine. Thank you for being so transparent.

Yeah we appreciate you .

sharing that well, IT has really shaped my vision of my own life, and i'm very, very aware of that tendency to overdo IT on my own. And you too, and I very careful not i've always been very careful not to burn myself out.

And i've been there before and it's there are all it's a very fine line to walk and is a constant balancing act rate, which is why I think financial independence and financial hook fitness is so important for doctors because it's very easy to get caught up and work, especially when you're highly motivated and lose sight of self care, lose sight of taking care of yourself, spending time with your family, taking care of your mental help. So when I see that on my personal life, and so I feel very strongly about self care and wellness for physicians. And I think financial fitness is a huge part of that because often we get stuck in jobs that are toxic, but I can't believe because of our financial situations.

So I believe in that multiple streams of income situations to make IT a little bit more possible to achieve baLance in the professional rm. And so anyway, so going back to my that passed away and then my mom was quite assizes in india because I was a suicide. And general, it's a pretty stigmatize thing in india. And so my uncle, who was a very successful neurologist, swept ed in and had this move to the united states, to america. And we landed in a guter, georgia jack.

a guter, georgia. Hi, sister.

right? And I I honestly, I was from a big city, was a very indoor and a deputation is a very big city, again, to probably like a boston or new york city at the business goes. And when we moved to a guess, I really felt like we moved to that.

The wilderness, there are so many trees, and and I knew english, but I spoke british english. I went to a british english school, and I really felt like I didn't know the language at all. My mom was a school teacher actually.

He started off as a lab scientist and then transition to being a school teacher, in any case, wasn't making very much at all. We had no assets really to our name in turns, obviously, because there was in india, suicide, snow, get any coverage, and the businesses were passed on to my dad, siblings and what's so forth. What, we basically had nothing to our name.

We are very poor. And we lived off of subsidized lunches and subsidized housing. And I grew up playing basketball and the streets most of the time, or reading books.

We don't have A T. V. So IT was an interesting life, and in order to kind of get away from at the trauma at all, I was red ferociously.

And I was in the library like all the, and I studied, and I did well in school and got a full ride. T. G. A.

And then I went to medical school and my family was very, uh, very my mom pushed me to go in to medicine because IT was a high paying field. And I took out loans for medical school. And I didn't really know what I was doing. I took out the most available every year, and I was not a lot IT was forty thousand or so, but I could have probably taken out at a little west because i'm into medical school in my hometown. But in any case, uh, I I got to be a physician.

And here I was like for your doctor, you got your first six figure just, and this was like the time where I should have made IT, after years and years of working hard and a delay gratification, not going out with my friends when I could have, I finally got this job. And as I guess, this is that I made IT, we're going by a nice house and we are going to have a nice late, right? And then and then reality said in, we did find a nice house, but then I had to have two kids because this is also, that happens to be the time where I need to get this done because i've like late twenty years, early thirties, the clock are taken.

And so that to take maternity y leave, I had to do the whole pumping thing. In any case, IT was more difficult than I imagine. And then the student loans came due, and the student loans felt really, really converse that, I mean, my standard payment was two thousand and seven hundred dollars a month, something like that.

yeah. And we are trying to do IT a little bit more. And we playing, we were playing four thousand hours, someone that IT was lot we felt really squeers between that and our home mortgage. My um husband he had deploy to afghanistan.

I had haven't included him in the story yet all yet but he was captain in the army to put in afghanistan, came back with chronic disease, thanks to all the stress of the deployment, and then had to lead the service because of the chrome deceive. So at this point, my first job, he was at home, working on his masters and project management, taking care of our son. And I was the only person earning an income.

And so anyway, between being the solar or and then having to take unpaid maternity leave, we don't have any benefits of hospitals for maternity leave. So IT was all like save, save your money in we had little bit of short term disability, but. Any case, I had began took like four weeks so I didn't really pay that much.

And so yes, I was just tough and I had this vision of being a doctor and haven't made IT and everyone's happy and there's twenty of money to go around. And that simply was not my reality. And I realized that something needed to change some of IT was my minds, my execs, ents.

And honestly, when I looked around, IT didn't seem like doctors were interested in saving money all that much. But I needed to do that, like realistically, we needed to get more frugal. So I looked around, I found the dave m community.

Then I found the choose of I community in the financial independence community. There's all these people being frugal and really happy about. And there is all these people empire ing themselves by making, why is money choices really thinking about, like value by spending? And I felt like I found my people.

And so I took some of those ideas and start applying IT to my own life. I brought IT to my husband, and my husband got on board too, because he was feeling the pinch as well. And then we started making big changes, like we paid off the cars.

We actually wrote down our deaths. S figured out how much we old. Then one by when we started paying them off. So we started with the death nobel with our cars, and then we paid off the cars. Then we went towards when, after my student loan, that and I started my blog, the focal physician, when we paid off a hundred thousand dollars of my student loan, that in six months, in six months, a hundred thousand dollars. And like, I didn't would make that much after taxes.

So have a quick way. But how much did did you have? Totally see, you had a hundred thousand in student loan, that and you had the car, and you had all this date that you were paying off. What what was the total amount when you finally look at IT?

Yeah, the different one, that was two hundred thirty eight thousand when I started.

Oh yeah.

that's a big one. That's a big one. And so but when we got into this, like, let's get our financial life together, IT came down to about two hundred thousand, is about when I A refinanced IT with a private lender for lower induct. And we started really going after IT. And on top of that, we had so like all together, total was around seven hundred and fifty dollars.

So until that, with so we had two cars and then we had our primary home, which was about three and fifty thousand, and then we had a rental property, which was about one hundred and fifty thousand, something like that at that point. So yeah, so like total, that was about seven thousand, seven hundred and fifty thousand course, the the rental property was paying for itself so we can left that one alone. But but we went after the car, the student debt first.

And so after I paid up one hundred thousand, six months of the student debt, I was like, this is amazing. Like, this is a real life pack. And I feel like people are, especially doctors, kind of need to hear this story a little bit, because there are a lot of doctors that came from well of families that didn't have to take on a lot of student that some did.

As an immigrant who basically came from nothing after we moved here, I didn't feel like I heard the stories of those immigrants as much. What that processes like, learning how money in this country works, learning how to dead going away like the indian community has all kinds of expectations of as far as you need to have a big house. And if you don't have a big house, you're not successful.

That's how you define your successes without a big house. And indian doctors are supose to live a certain kind of life. And I just wanted to be that voice of that person, being like, I live and nothing else and have a doctor and i'm going okay, and I really a lot Better IT feels a lot Better to live up below your means so that you can have freedom to do the things that you want to do and take your time back. And I I felt like that was a message that I need to get out there. And I think IT was as well received.

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I'm going to go sign up right now because I got a lot more to learn, even though we recorded an episode with then yell they had a women benefits.

Oh yes, i'm headed over there right now, bill.

So IT seems like a frugal position is almost a misera, right? Doctors have made IT. They got IT altogether.

And we've talked to in our community privately, doctors that have forgotten that all wrong. And they are leveraged to the hilt. They have dead out their eye balls, their house, poor life for have no gap.

They look rich, but they are poor. And they charged to believe. And it's a problem out there. And I can lead to, for example, the higher suicide rate inductor in, but it's a real issue.

And potential freedom can free you from some of the stress that you're under when you're golden handcuff to a profession not having student. That is a huge bonus. And that was one of our values for our kid was, no, they shouldn't start.

They can start with a net worth of zero was opposed the negative seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars or negative two thousand dollars. I mean, that poor me, or high income professional. But people face this issue of taking themselves into a whole if we hear this. So harmony, and did you do to get free scream when you get to.

We were tracking our student loans in a maconi jar. And so each macro, I was worth a thousand box. So we put as a family, we would take about every as we made a payment and counter down, keep ourselves motivated. So at seventeen and a half months of this dead snowball, we paid off the tune thirty IT doesn't know there are just long, and we had confident, and yet we scream and had a big party. As a household.

you eat the Better what?

Look, that is a great fun way to pay off your date. So this is a little takeaway if you wanted, try to make IT fun to use the macron I trick that dish is talking about, because yes is a tough time. You man is, will try to make IT fun, and of course, celebrate your ways and to be able, able to visually see IT. Yeah, makes a big different.

But I appreciate you guys saying that, because what I learnt that in mostly from bill, so I recited you, bill, being so open as a physical, because I know a lot of people, including myself, we do look at doctors in a certain way, all they make all this money, their ridge, and you guys opening up and talking about, okay, yeah, we make more money, but we tend to still have more debt, have more things, you know. So that s almost like more money, more problems type of scenario. And doctors are human as well.

Their scale is a little bit different. If they do wake up about their debt like you guys did, you at least have a big shovel of of an an com. You have that skill. So it's kind of an eye opener. So hope our listeners are a just just seeing this that IT seems like no matter how much you make, you can always find ways to spend IT that .

brings up of one of the articles .

if you want to yeah why do we get .

into that resting? Recently, an area was published of dollars in debt, I believe, by nick madula, about why is lifestyle creep mostly a myth? And I was shocked when I was this, because anecdotal IT seems like it's a massive problem in our society.

But with with the hyper consumption society and living beyond your means, we see all these stories in the media about this remet sethi talks a nosier about this problem, but this article tries to dispell the Smith and says, we've actually been exaggerating this concern and personal finance. What was your take on this article? Lisha.

well, first i'd like to say my mother's made name is steady, so. Relation, no no elevator just like their physician you like tally against message probably wouldn't get along in Robert in the real life but you know because he's all about like not being uh of scarcity mindset and the fruit of session generally brings that up in any case, what I think about lisle inflation, I I think this article it's sort of open to interpretation ation because I hate to think you like a research nerd, but I don't see like any actually quantitative analysis. I just see a scatter plot. I don't see p values feel what's going on here and I see any confidence in the world.

Yeah well, at the position thing. But the article usually we have sort of a snaps shot. Look at this where this is the problem is it's a single line in time.

This is a lot to more study over a prisme twenty years where people in different income stratus and IT talks about their spending and they are increase in spending over time too. And IT is time dependent. And he looks at ten year plots throughout this time.

But in in reality, that seemed like you're trying to prove, according to this article, lifestyle creep was not as much of an issue as we thought because this increase their income, they are spending did not increase into the point where they lost the gap. Now I think in the dolly, for me, IT seems like the higher income professionals would have a bigger problem. But that was not the output of the data in this article.

That seemed to be the people that only saw increases of less than twenty five thousand dollars over ten years or less than fifty thousand dollars over ten years. So I was a little bit shocked that in our society, at least according to the data presented here, that IT wasn't the problem. Because my experience in my own life and in the lives of some of the people I know, this is absolutely not the case.

There is the big house, the big cars, and we talk about this all the time, the big travel and the the going out to eat and people lose the gap. And maybe we see this in the media because it's sensational, but in reality, and real amErica maybe is not an issue, but I just don't feel this true. But the data the wise yeah no.

I I don't want to knock on your article. No, it's a good one. But what the graph shows is you have a income change over ten years on the x access and spending change over ten years on the y access.

And they took A I forget the what the how many people were in this article, but IT was a good amount. And in the displays as a scatter plot where they were. And yeah, and IT sort of takes IT from a big picture of you and and IT is interesting.

There is no quantitative analysis here i'd love to see, but it's more of a sort of a god of like how do we feel about in zero to twenty five there a lot of a lot red where people were seriously lifestyle creepy, but that was when their income changed by twenty five thousand hours. And between fifty thousand to a hundred thousand there. There are not that many red points.

And there didn't seem to be a lot of people that were seriously inflating their lifestyle when their income change from about fifty thousand hours. Then there's like a line of people, but did have some lifestyle tion at a change about one hundred thousand dollars. That's what I took away from. This was like the hundred thousand dollars was like the point where people idea, let's the money.

Did you expect lifestyle creep in your own life? Did you have to combat this problem as a physician?

Yes, yes, definitely. And I went from, I was, I was more than one hundred thousand. I was making sixty thousand, fifty thousand dollars as a resident.

And then went up to two hundred or thousand dollars as the first year turning. So hundred sixty thousand a ready shoot yeah. And we moved to a different city for my first, first jobs. So we have, over time, starting over. And this is very dangerous place for a position as my first job.

You're moving to a new city and you're starting over and you're like or and not going to get this big house and that's how you set yourself up for failure as a first year attending is buying a too much of a house in being house poor. We didn't buy like a tana house. We were still reasonable.

We thought a three hundred and fifty thousand of our house. IT was a beautiful house, and I had a high edge away. And IT was on the water in savana with will make them out. Another of your familiar jacky, the familiar with savana yeah.

I actually have an aunt that lives in Hilton had really close to savana, but I wish I would have spent more time. There are beautiful.

beautiful place on the IT is lovely, so beautiful. And anyway, so we kind of instated pass where we at that point. And so yeah and then of course, that I make the house look nice.

You get to do other renovations and finish the basement. There is like one, you bite house. There always things that need to be done and then hurry anes would come through, right, because it's costal. And then we would have that big, expensive hurricane mage, which, by the way, flight in turns doesn't cover anything. When you're in a flood zone, you required to IT cross a lot of money, but they are like you expected this, uh, flood zone.

and tRicky part, living on the coast. Well, I mean, and I wonder this article if I don't think this article really get into, but I wonder if people that are significantly making a jump, an income like you was a over hundred thousand dollar difference. Does that make a difference in lifestyle? Create looks so much bigger than you just underestimate how big IT is or how much you can really cover with this higher income. You japan more taxes.

Is that actually in? Yeah and looks like the article I just looked at again. But IT came from the data came from the panel study of income dynamics, and IT was from one hundred and ninety nine to twenty twenty one, where they followed these households over time.

So we will link to this in the show notes. But to me, more than anything, that was just kind of a great little topic of discussion to say, is IT that big deal and like that? I experience that. And is there any kind of theme of the type of people that might impact? But IT seems to not be quite as biggest we thought, but I I feel like we all do IT just a little bit mean .

that big jumper income is a problem. And as i've said before, when you have jumps in income, that's when you had can't lifestyle and fate, you can take ten, twenty, thirty percent of that and inflate your lifestyle little bit. But that is an opportunity to increase your gap.

And you've got ta know how to deal with that first eight or your big girl paycheck. And I didn't know how to do IT. I didn't know how to petition that. I didn't save first and spend last. I was spending first and saving last, which was the total wrong thing to do. And whenever you ever windfall is the same thing, you don't want to see a windfall friend away just because of lifestyle and then you're in trouble because you can't maintain that. Uh, and we see that happen all the time with high income athletes, for example, artery winners.

lottery winners, the .

windfalls are dangerous, big jumps and pay are dangerous. And you have to have a plan for how to deal with that so that you don't to come to yahoo, as you said.

Yeah.

for yolo, as my boat was and be.

The biggest problem is that we never really taught this, so we can only go by what we're exposed to. The family says, oh yes, time for the big house. You just get your end.

D and now your doctor. So hopefully, that messenger will start to change. And we are all trying to be messengers for that. This with your website, a lot of people are in your profession. Physicians are looking at that and maybe that'll give them a for pause. So hopefully, the whole messaging and there's a lot more exposure to a different way that one make a lot of people want to inflate so much or maybe be more realistic about how much they can in play.

That's actually websites are all about. And being go, we have to actually define what that means and the difference between frugal and cheap. And you're the perfect person to tell us what's the difference. okay?

So fruit goal is looking at thing's value and determining if that's what value to you, not how much at cost, but how much do I actually value. This is what its Prices. Is that worthy to me? right? And then making a decision on buying something or not buying something based on that verses cheap, cheap is only going for the lowest Price at all costs right? At at all times, just trying to pay as little as possible.

So for example, if you're trying to get your sixteen year old a new car, a cheap person would get them the cheapest car, the lowest Price car they could find, right? Where's a frugal person might get them a mid range car that's safer for them to drive, right? But not there are cities, right? So I think regality is somewhere in the between the big vendors and the super cheap people. You are trying to make value based decisions that are really based on looking at how much something means and not just the cost of IT.

Well, that's absolutely true. And where gal in value by spending means you can spend a little more for something that's going to mean something for you and last longer and you go cheap and it's going to potentially wear out faster and you'll be turning that and being cheap several times over as supposed to doing the one thing that means something to you and is going to last.

right? Yeah, I think being cheap is spending the lezama of money possible. To reframe my definition, at the risk of harming yourself for others, when you are decisions are putting other people at risk, you really need to ask yourself if you are being cheap. I think cheap is a label other people put on you because you're making bad decisions.

I have a really, but lets us pay for dinner every time. And i'm like, you know what? Why did you paid your part? I have the actor in the relationship, but you know what you can help out with this dinner. And I I don't .

know you have that issue too. I have that issue as well and i'm not even a yeah and i'm not even a doctor, but they're looking at me when .

the check codes well, boy, that's one pro of being labelling yourself the frugal position because people don't look at me that way.

How you go.

Well, I mean, your message is really important, as I mentioned in the intro, not just for physicians or high income professionals, but really for our community at large. Because I didn't grow up frugal and I I did not learn frugal early in my life, where would have made a difference as far as compounds in the gap i've lost the gap was house poor, was car poor in spite of being a six figure income on or and for example, teachers are really good at maintaining that are really good. Savers are notorious for being wealthy, probably more wealthy IT with asset than physicians.

I mean, that we've had jeff york, the wealth kastari and on the show, and we had an income no more than forty five thousand dollars as entire career, and he is a multimillion aire. It's incredible what you can do with a lower income if you know and understand your own frugality and don't live beyond your means. So lifestyle inflation, let's talk about in the community.

I want our community, tim, and get into the facebook group and tell us what you think is through versus cheap. Tell us if you are a victim of lifestyle flame and how you combat IT. Now let's move out, jackie, to our second article.

And this article comes from the fact the dishes is a tennis player. Now what how do you think tennis has anything to do with finance? Well, in this article, the losers game, by Charles the ella, who want to book on how to win the losers game as well.

And this goes way back to one thousand ninety four and nineteen ninety five. He talks about winners forces, losers games, and within regard to institutional finance and personal investor finance. And the thesis of the article, i'll go through them, i'll get into the tennis analogy is there's a belief that active managers can beat the market based on two assumptions, liquidity offered in the stock market is an advantage.

And two institutions, al investing or active investing, big game investing is a winner game. The unhappy theses of this article can be briefly stated owing to important changes in the past ten years. And remember, this was back in one thousand hundred and ninety four.

These basic assumptions are no longer true. On the contrary, market liquidity is a liability rather than asset, and institutional investors will, over the long term, under perform the market because money management has become a losers. Can now to show you, read this article, explain to us the difference between our winners and a losers game, please?

yeah. So this author makes the analogy between active managers and tennis players. He says, there are two types of tennis. There is a professional tennis player. The professional tennis players are actually winning points. They're playing a winners game where they are actively hitting shot and consistent enough to hit them and then find the winning shot and make a winning shot. They're not they're actively beating their opponent by making shots that their opponents cannot get to.

Whereas maur tennis players as the other type of tennis where amateur s players are generally beating themselves, they're playing a losers game in that amateur players lose points and the one that loses less points is the winner. Most of the time, amateur players are making mistakes and beating themselves. And that's what he's saying about the stock market.

That is actually a losers game. We think it's a winners. Can me want to think that if you outperform other people in the market or other players in the market, and you hit awesome winners down the line, that you are gonna win that game.

But more often than not, IT is more like an amar tennis match, where the person, generally, people will be hitting back. And fourth, one person will try to go for a really low percentage, shut down the line on a shot they should not really be taking. But they're trying to win the point.

And in that process, they actually lose because they lose the point they hit into the net, and they do this over over again. Yes, they might get a good winner once in a while. And most of the time overall, in that game, they're losing more points in their winning, and they end up losing the match.

This was me when I started playing. I love ling, an aggressive game. However, I have learned over time that hitting cross court at more space on that, that line is a safer shot. And you just keep doing that until they give you the opportunity to hit a winner or they mess up themselves, which is more common than and he just wait for, I have a dampener on my racket that says, wait for them to effect up. He just came back in .

the world the speaks against active managers and there's a speak of study to tell us about that is and .

what IT tells us the be the .

study yeah yes.

So we will link IT into the show nose, but it's just basically saying and there are some modern day examples of IT as well. IT shows each year. I think IT goes back to two thousand.

One where is showing how many actively manage funds have outperformer have not performed as well as the S M P. Five hundred. And in most years is between what forty five and eighty percent do not beat the S M P.

Five hundred. And one of the modern day chAllenges that I recall is warm buffer. When he threw out the chAllenge in two thousand eight, he said, hey and hey.

Active hedge fund managers that think they can beat the S M P. Five hundred. I will make this bet with you. And the winner, uh, would have to make a very large donation to a charity. And only I think three hedged fund manager took IT. And IT was so funny because the they did not win warn buffet was right after ten years, IT just proved that the S M P five hundred outperform nearly all of the actively managed funds yeah and .

over fifteen to twenty years, I think it's ninety percent of active managers under performed of funds and that we're passive investing index find investing winds.

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Hey, guess what, guys, podcasting is not a perfect science. We ran to technical difficulties. Dish, I lost power, so we ve moved to, uh, using your cell phone to talk to us.

We've lost your image, but we still got her voice. So let's continue with the show. The show must always go on, right.

jacky? yeah. And I must go on and not to linger, not to throw out another tennis analogy.

But she's a chap. So SHE got right onto her phone and she's like, get this done. So thank you. Dish for hanging in there oh my god.

i'm so sorry. Yeah we have a understory m coming through and we just lost power and it's not showing any signs of recovery at the moments. So i've got my candle lights here and we're gonna keep going.

So let's do IT. And our third article is about income disparately. And we're going to talk about two different kinds of income disparity, one sort of in couples or partnerships, and one that income disparity we hear a lot about in the press, women to men.

So there's an article that was generated by remote set, the word he says he makes five hundred and fifty a year. Her husband makes sixty eight year. How does that affect the relationship? Now I think this is a chAllenging problem, right? This ship, yeah, I .

mean, as much as we all want to be progressive and say that that's not an issue and in my household, we'd certainly try to do that. But their chAllenges when one person makes a lot more and especially, I think one of the woman makes a lot more than the man, possible income is tied to work. So someone is making that much. They're working a lot.

And the woman, unfortunately, due to societal or whatever we have, the expectations that we have grown up with this, that the woman also takes care of a lot of the household knees, a lot of the planning, a lot of just the juggling back and forth with the kids, and then of course, women also need to have the kids and Carry the babies, get pregnant, give birth and then maybe breast bed. And and unfortunately, that's not a duty that we and easily pass off to anyone else. So I think the chAllenges of being in a family where there is a huge income disparity, especially when is the woman making more, are real.

And I really found this article interesting because IT highlighted that at first they were kind of saying that IT was the income disperrited itself that was causing the problem, but they got to the heart of IT that IT wasn't really that they were present for that the partner didn't make more IT was more that they didn't share in the household responsibility, ie. S as much. And that's really what they needed for from them and that they needed to stop being there.

A spouse is mom and think that, that is kind of it's a very remote setting message, of course, and he's one of the few that has the gumm tion to say IT. But it's true. I've been in this situation before as I went during my first job when I was pregnant, having babies are also the only earn my husband going to school.

And I was telling you guys the story of when I was in the hospitals working a night shift. I was the only doctor on call for emergencies in the hospital I was pumping and a cold blue gets called, which is when someone is hearts stop in, the uncle has to run out and h, administer C, P, R, and when try to revive the patient. And so i'm in the middle of pumping ing.

Tough to stop that process, but I like running down the hallway with the pumping tubes coming out of my shirt. T this was before the cups that go into the bra that you can hide easy. And I running and I run the code, we get the patient back, and then I got to call IT was a cage's kind of late at night.

I was in the middle of night going to call for my husband, asking me what was for dinner as i'm walking back. And I was just that I lost. That was like, what are you talking about? Like, I went work.

You open the fridge, figure out was for dinner. Like, give up, calling me about that. And so we had some Frank words about the the process of coming at home and moving at work. And later we had a nice conversation about setting boundaries and dividing responsibility lies. I think that's an important conversation I have in a situation like that, where one person may be working more and making more that the other spouse contribute another ways that are also very valuable, like managing the .

houses in our family. And it's been kind of three, five, two, five between me and my wife. And we do not describe my my wife with never network came from a chAllenging family situation divorce suit to bankrupt and that he never wanted to network because he wanted to be able to survive on her own and maintain her independence from me, so to speak, should say our marriage not work out.

And I wouldn't have had any other way either because to be the soul provider for me was too stressful. I am in a job that is A A high risk hysteron over job and it's a built in disability policy to have two income earners. And that's kind of the reality of this day in age.

But when you have this kind of income disparity and it's flipped, the switch is flipped and is the woman partner in A A male, female relationship turns a lot more. I can imagine how this is chAllenging because that goes against all traditional gender norms. right? Jacking.

yeah. IT IT does in this. I've got in my head that image of you doing that code blue.

I haven't to interrup. You're pumping in everything well that make a great social media post. But yeah, the woman still has to do all these things.

We're the only ones that can have the baby. We're the only one that needs all this recovery time and nosing and things like that. So the article, like you said, IT started out trying to say that they were baby them a little too much.

And I had a lot to do with the financial part when I was really just responsible. Bi T S, IT sounds like you live in, and you give that very vivid example. So you have that matters.

IT matters. And I think that spells at home, I think, is a very important thing, especially he was very, very important in our family back in those times where I was working night shift and overnight night and and was very important for one spouse to be at home and take care of our babies. And he did that for us.

And i'm very thankful for IT. And the income is just one part of the equation. The other part is all the other things that goes into being a family and the day homeless spouse does contribute in other ways. And I think it's just important to have those conversations are not shy away from them because the other half of that, the dynamic between couples that have an income disparity is that sometimes they don't want to talk about IT because we don't want to make the other person feel bad, right? But at the same time, if one person is struggling with all of the responsibility of not only earning but also managing the house, that that they say that and say that I need you to step up and take more responsibility at home. And that's really the only way to supply, otherwise it's not onna work out.

I mean, one of the things I would worry about here is the divorce rate in these situations because aren't not to build resentment and the article did not address what is the divorce rate in significant income disparity or how does the divorce rate in a single provider households differ from a dual provider household where there's more equity of income. I would be interested in the answers to those questions.

And I do know because I have read that in a doctor, doctor marriage, the divorce rate is lower than in a doctor state homepage or a doctor much lower income partner for potentially resentment reasons. So you've gotta be very, the communication has to be good, and you've got to acknowledge is the way that is, the guy that earn sixty thousand year was a musician, and that is the way that is, I think, uh, spouse wanted him to hustle little more and to potentially try and increases income and not just sit back and enjoy the fact that are a high, high income couple. So there, there are issues here, and the issues also extend. And this is sort of a hobby est expert in the fact, uh, that there is still A A persistent income disparity between women and men. Can you address that issue for us a little bit?

Yes, the wage gap, the gender wage gap has unfortunately been an issue in our society and has not gotten Better over the last few decades, despite the fact that a lot of people that point IT out. Unfortunately, we haven't made much progress. And even in medicine, doctors, women physicians are paid less than male physicians.

Now you could argue at what the number is. Some people say two percent, three percent. Some people say twenty percent.

There is a recent md scape survey that said women and twenty percent less than men in medicine, in the same field and with the same amount of experience. I think the degree to which you acknowledge the cap is different, but is definitely there. There are many factors are playing in this.

Of course, again, there is the fact that we do have the biological responsibility generally to have kids. And women possess often put off having kids and then they need to do I B F is also very expensive. And once you have the kids and you have to take care of them.

And part of that process, a lot of women positions, and of cutting back their hours in order to be there more for their families. Often though, that does not result in decreased responsibility that are often working on the times they're not supposed to be working because you still need to take care of patients. So I think the gender wage gap is continues to be an issue.

There is a recent article by doctor aora at all that said that women make two million dollars less in their lifetime, then males do in medicine, those women physicians specifically. And so that huge gap, you have not only the wage gap, but then you also have the fact that women tend to Carry more student debt. Women in this country Carry two thirds that think of the student debt as compared to men.

And part of that reasons, we're making less per hour than than males, even when we do work. And so not only do we have a wage disparity, we have a debt disparately, then we also have the fact that women are generally not as open to learning about finance and managing their own finances. And so where again, disappoint ing that way.

Now I don't want to act like we are the victim here that because it's very easy to get into that. Sounding like a victim. But unfortunately, IT is the way that is.

Women are also the very good at saving money, very good at being frugal, very good at finding deals was when we do get into money. IT has been also shown that women are Better investors than men because we tend to be not as overconfident, right? And we tend to be more conservative in our as allocation. And so when we do get in the money, I think we can do well. I think that's why talking about this and and empowers women with financial knowledge so important.

Well, this is actually speak back to the winners and .

the losers game yeah tend to .

want to play the winner's game. And women are Better at playing the losers game because they see the benefits and they don't mind taking the average return and aren't trying to hit the shot down the line as much.

Yeah, and this is i'm curious about what tips you might have because i've heard you speak passionately about this and sharing some ideas of what women might be able to do to sort of catch up, if you will, or to advocate for themselves to help with this wage gap. And it's on every level, is not just low income owners, is not just made income earners, is not just high in owner owners. IT IT spends the gaming. So what tips do you have that might be helpful to other women?

I think it's yet starts with contract negotiation and talking to people and networking and making sure you have all the information. So when you get that first contract offer, don't assume that that's the best they can do that. That's what they're giving everyone else. I recently had a lawyer um on my podcast from resolve who told me that he got a contact to review for a woman physician and they had accidently left in the header of the contract formalization contract. They typically had a female physical contract and a male physical.

That is a kind of, oh my god, yeah.

a real life story like this happens. So it's important to talk to other people, hire an attorney to do the research, market research being provided with the numbers and make sure that you are getting a fair contract, right? And there are a lot of efforts now for which of transparency. There's several communities gathering data, escaping one that are trying to make IT more affordable there. Of course, n gma data physicians that is published, but only available to employers or businesses.

So but that data can be available to lawyers and some of these more special contract review company is so anyway, do your research, talk to people around you, make sure you're talking to people in your community and make sure that you're getting a fair offer, right? And then women also do have to work about short term disability. Long term disability, everyone has to worry about that, especially if you're planning on having kids.

That's important to look into make sure you look into benefits for maternity leave. Uh, any kind of covers that you might need for that? You're planning having babies and then in general, the wage gap. I mean, I am not gonna tend to say that I have all the answers here because it's continues to be a problem. But talking to people about money, incredible empowering thing once you start getting over the uh, discomfort of bringing up wages, IT actually becomes a whole lot easier to get real data from people around you and advocate for yourself.

I've been told the at work we don't talk about money here a very specifically and uh H I think that's wrong because it's like visit of eyes where you have that curtain up and you don't know what to behind the curtain. Who are you really negotiating with? And jackie, we should probably have and negotiator on the show.

we should will find someone yeah that that's a great idea. And this should I think you have obviously some very high stakes contracts, high dollar if you're in that physical attorney, several fields when you got to sign a big contract and there's big dollars involved, hey, go all out. But to your point, just talking about IT with other people in that industry, there's a lot of social media stuff I like. There's really cool social media person called us salary transparent street.

And she's literally on the street in certain cities asking people what do you do and how much do you make trying to bring more light to talk about your salary, your boss or your job may tell you that they don't they frown upon you're talking about money, but is illegal for them to tell you that you are not allowed to talk about money if they try to have some type of, I guess, negative repercussions if you're talking about money or salary but you are allowed to do that as an employee. So um just keep that in mind is found upon, but IT doesn't mean that you cannot do IT is not illegal for you to do so. And if you want to take a look at some of these income disparities based on ginger and all kinds of other ways, I always look at a source from the federal pressure system.

And they do something called a survey of consumer finances so you can check that out. But I am just glad that you're talking about a dish. And bill, we should probably talk about IT a little bit more as well just to say this shouldn't be off limits.

And if you're impacted by simply talking about IT consulting, some resources could be very could be very helpful. So so thank you dishes for that. Yeah.

we've talked about a lot of topics today, and we've to remember who we're talking to. Her dish at the end and we are late starters. You were in a late starter.

You have six streams of income. You're kidding. IT. All right. But maybe you were to thought you're a little bit of start because of your debt story, but you caught up quickly, as we all know, and you're well on the way. You may be a well on the way to retiring early, but we as late starters aren't necessarily i'm having to work properly towards traditional retirement age is sixty two, sixty three because of my late start. Do you have any specific tips, suggestions or encouragement for our audience today?

absolutely. I think was my financial awake name was rather kind of earlier. I think anyone that can learn that stuff and anyone that's motivated enough to the cast has the power to turn their financial situation, right? Of course, income helps.

But more than that, if you are aware of general financial knowledge, I do if you're willing to play the losers game, may not try to overhit every shot in finance and just just get average returns, invest regularly, just get the ball back and keep IT and play. Keep trying to make that difference between your income and your expenses. I'm trying to maintain some for of a sittings rate and invest regularly.

You will do Better first, all you will do Better than you were, and you will do Better the most americans, if you are able to do that, and you will be able to return at some point IT. And and that's all we can really in retirement. I think in my mind, retirement and is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is financial stability, being able to live without having to worry about money and be able to pursue the things that make us happy without having to put our lifestyle, put our families at risk. And that's really the power of this kind of financial knowledge.

So it's funny because we come back to the winners and the losers game and maybe we should tittle the episode that way. We have to learn that is okay to play the losers game and be a winner. And that's actually how to be a winner because most of us are average and the the active investors don't get IT right. The pass of investors, the individual investors that are willing to be patient, play the long game, play the losers game that wins are the ones that ultimately come out ahead.

right, is exactly, exactly. I mean, we say losers game, but IT is ultimately the winning game, is a winning strategy for an amateur investor to to stay in the market, to buy and hole, do not freak out and and to not not try the time the market because a very, very, very few of those expert winners naturally win at that game, and most of them lose anyway. And we are guaranteed returns, but guaranteed winds if we just stick to the plan and keep trying to put a little bit of money in every month at the end of the month and keep going. So yeah, keep playing the losers one game and I think it'll be just fine.

Interesting thing is we're recording this in August nineteen and not even two weeks ago, we had a market correction, right? Jacky.

we sure did.

People were freaking out is like, oh, no.

we're going including you, bill, including you bill.

I wasn't upset. I was just upset that i'd put in a lumpsum just before the correction. But guess what? We're back above where I bought in. So IT all works out in the wash. I bet IT worked out in the short term would have been painful to have to wait no longer.

Yeah, and I was about to stay, bill, when you did that, when you were kind of like feeling down on yourself that you just put the money in and then the market went down, you couldn't do anything different. You still let IT ride. You still kept the money there. You didn't even change anything and two weeks IT about write back.

To look at the long term averages, the market always goes up, as we've talked about on previous shows, and a correction is Normal and IT will bounce back and just bounce back a little faster than everybody might have expected. But was IT worth freaking out? You know, they had them on sale as this, he said.

I was about a week off from that buying them on sale. But none. There's in in it's five, seven, ten year twenty, your money when you put IT in the market, you've got a plan on those links of times for IT to work for you.

Yeah and build one quick little take away from that is how tour audience, how did you feel when we had this correction? Again, this correction happened in early August. And if you had money in the market or you are putting in or whatever, think about how you felt at that moment.

And that could give you a real indicator of what your risk level is like. So think about how you felt during that time and hopefully you didn't do anything because, again, the long game always wins. But bill, i'm glad you didn't do anything with that money.

I had left that I was like, I was excited, just like this, shi said. This was something. Did you do anything different during this correction?

You know, I was mad because I was out of town and I didn't have like my best top. I could see everything like transactions that I always these opportunities for tax loss harvesting and just walking out of some body for for ever. 所以 所以 yes， thinking I like these opportunities to try to get some tag loses on the books, give that to my cat the end of the year.

But that process is just exchanging like kind investments and staying at the same asset allocation and not money out. You're just exchanging them to boost the tax loss, which is a little bit more a advanced strategy and definitely look into a whole lot of that before you you do IT because there are things that coffee has to be aware of taxwise. But yeah no, I am definitely a long view kind of person and thankfully have some time to really play that until we get to retirement age.

So i'm not sweating any corrections that's in election year. We are going to get corrections. I mean, the market swings in election years and you should be expecting that things will likely even out as we get past this election. But yeah, just stay studdy and don't freak out and taking money out of the market for good.

Yeah, don't change anything because don't change anything because of politics either. The market always gardings of the party is in office and people think, you know, the world's gonna end because of this person or that personal be elected. So this is a year also where you can try and time point or the market.

So dish hop, jackie, we've covered a lot. It's been a lot of fun. We made little controversial here and there, but that's okay. And we may have had technical difficulties and we're by candles and dishes, house to funding form, lost power. But the show went on and I think we covered some topics that are of value to our audience.

Yeah and we just need to know, dish, how do we find you so that we can get some more of your wisdom?

No, thank you. I am at W W, W. Doesn't the fruit position 点 com？ I have a podcast called finding financial freedom with the frugal physician that's available and all the podcast in platforms. And i'm also on social media, twitter, facebook, instagram, I can fight me love to have you a chat and thank you so much for jacky and ill for having me on this podcast is such a huge honor and I look forward to keeping in touch yeah I mean.

I would encourage our audience to reach out to dish uh and get a prescription for for their financial future. And i'm involved in health care and emergency health care, and I learned how to deal with my emergency finances. This is an internal and sh'll help you with your preventative care, your preventative financial care, reach out to SHE may be a high income professional, but he speaks to everyone.

Yeah, and I can conquer with that. I love the podcast. I love the website. And IT does touch on topics that would impact everyone regardless of what your income level is. So I appreciate you doing that decision. I think our audience would love a lot of the content that you put out there.

Thank you so much. I really believe that yeah.

we're to talk to you again because we got ta learn about budgeting again and you are budgeter, but that's IT for this week. And we want to thank you for joining us and listening to the show. This jackie, we will see you next week and catching up to five.

So bill, as you know, we cannot do this show without our amazing staff and the people that help us put this on. So our social media is Diana falk. Our editor frits r and shown notes are done by sera vesterbro. We love them and they keep us going.

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