Giving Done Right w/ Phil Buchanan #908
53:05 Share

This episode is brought you by navy federal credit union this november. They look back at over ninety years of supporting their members, all two million of you. Your inspires them in supporting valuable profits like the mission continues, inspires to hire members of the military community.

Your service inspires them to always do Better for you because of all you've done for them. Learn more at name federal. Dior lash veterans, active duty veterans and their families can join name federal credit union. Their members are the mission. Name federal is ensured by N, C, U, A.

Hey, it's me, Tyler. Both open awards are danish. The color, the way that looks, that looks almost like a hearing.

So I feel like a good with anything. My style is very fun. I feel like I always look like a on holiday.

I just really like playing around with that and time to the music. So yeah, I really feel like the music making right now feels like a holiday. So I want to a look like a too check out both that come come too.

how money .

and you and I am.

we're talking about giving done right with film u canon.

Yeah so what IT comes to being charitable and giving away money. So I think I could be easy to for us to dismiss our own efforts is just a tiny drop in the bucket, at least like on my part, no foundations in my name and selling right now like i'm thinking for for a lot of folks out there, maybe you know you're giving just when prompted at the checkout register, right?

So just like five bucks on occasion or maybe you actually are being a little more disciplined about IT, right? You give away a certain percentage of your income, you cut a check every single month. Maybe that's the the easy part you give, but then you don't think about IT beyond that.

But that is not how we approach things here at how to money. We want you to get the most bang for your buck. And here to help us to learn how to do that is fill bucanier.

He is the president of the center for effective philanthropy. He is also the author of the book giving done right, where he ever sizes the importance of thoughtful and mission driven giving. He is all about a providing data driven insights to help us to maximize our impact out there in the words so film. Thank you so much for taking the time at the top of joe I D day.

Thanks, matt and joe. Really happy to be here.

We're glad to have you fill the first question we ask everyone that comes on the show is what you like to support, john. matt. I we can spend a lot on craft beer, but hey, it's okay because we're doing the smart thing with our money at the same time saving, investing for our future. What's that .

support for you? I'm gna take two. If that's OK. yeah. One is concert tickets, live music. I love to see shows, and I sometimes spent too much on tickets. And the other is I try to push myself to quote, quote spurge philanthropically, that is to give a little bit more than might feel comfortable to organisations that I really, really care about. I don't know that council is .

supported, but but I know the first one is very old mission, I should say.

with the i'm curious to feel who have you seen recently was the best concern recently.

So a lot of my musical taste these days are influenced by my, a nineteen year old and twenty three year old daughters. So this summer I saw no econ with my nineteen year old, which was fantastic, nice. And just recently, my twenty three year old kind of drag me, and then I ended up having a great time to see the far side, a maybe somewhat obscure nineties hip hop act, who were amazing actually. And and then actually, a few minutes after that, we went. My wife and I went also with my older daughter to seek dar Williams, whose foxy love .

dar Williams.

she's great song writer, brilliant. We went to college together. Although I didn't know that's call. We've been seeing her shows for you know the last twenty, twenty years. So lots of different .

type of music okay yeah that's very like to .

like to so many more points, Younger listeners yeah.

Can I ask one a good question? You feel you think we can do about music for a long time? But I want to know the title of your book is giving done right? I'm curious. I just kind of want to start this episode off by asking um the inverse question, what's giving done wrong?

Giving done wrong is uh thoughtless, arrogant talk down giving giving that constrained organizations from being successful or effective and there's a whole lot of IT. So i'll give you one example, a lot of folks fix, and I understand why on overhead rates of non profit. So we'll say how much is going to the cause or the program and how much is going to quoted overhead. And that gets defined a different ways. And and I like to back people up and say what what he really mean.

So if you're talking about supporting the food pantry that serving hungry people, are you saying that you want your gift to go to, uh, pay for the chicken and the broccoli and the other food that served, but not the rent of the establishment in which the food is served or the salaries of the staff who coordinate the volunteers to serve the food because that makes no sense. And if you restrict you're giving in that way, you will constrain the ability of non profits to be effective. Similarly, if you think you have all the answers to what are the most pressing problems are the ways to solve them, rather than going in more from a place of humility, you will make the kind of mistakes that we sometimes see billionaire falling enterprise make. And so that would be filthy py done right or giving done wrong.

I see that an instance cheap as opposed of rule. Looking at the overall impact fill, can you talk about like amErica has an interesting philanthus y history? I think that differs from the rest of the world. Can you explain why that is?

sure. I mean, I think that the founding of the country was rooted in a desire for religious freedom. And no freedom of association obviously is built right in to our bill of rights.

And in the, you know, early days to tokyo, discussed about discuss american tendency to form associations and groups of all types. And and so there is this sense of the autonomy to a kind of organize on the issues that you care about, the freedom to do that, the importance of doing that. And then in, I believe that was nineteen seventeen the a charitable tax deduction became a part of the tax code.

So there was an incentive to give phillinmore ropy ally just as we give incentives for people, for example, to buy homes. The notion was um we want to encourage giving and so the us. Has one of the higher rates of giving globally as a percent of GDP giving in twenty twenty three was five hundred and fifty billion dollars check table giving and the bulk of that three hundred and seventy four billion was giving by individuals.

And well we think of the ultra wealthy and there are some concerning a trends in terms of everyday givers giving at lower rates then was true twenty years ago. And we can talk about that IT is still also the case that the bulk of giving to most nonprofits is is not accounted for or not rather done by the biggest givers. IT is everyday givers who are helping fuel local nonprofits in every community who are working on important issues and often helping the most vulnerable among us.

So IT is an integral part of a what keeps our country going, and there's lots to be worried about in terms of the strength of the nonprofit sector, the sort of trends related to philanthropy. But historically, IT has been a great strength of this country. The nonprofit sector is supported by generous donors.

Can you give this like an overview maybe or or you know kind going into some U. S. History little bit here, which is really cool, maybe of the actual good. What are some of the things that nonprofits had the most impact on in this country, in europe?

Ion, there's so much all around us that we take for granted that is the work of nonprofits supported by generous donors. So in the wake of the pandemic, you know, we all, we all rediscovered the trails in our military. Ia know all the land conservation, the beautiful places that we get to enjoy that are all around us.

That's an example of something we don't necessarily think about how that came to be that we've got a great path to run on. But but there's a philanthropy story there. The disease is that we don't have to worry about our kids dying from, you know the rocket fella foundation developing a vaccine in the nineteen thirties for uh yellow fever.

That's not something you find most people worrying about a anymore. You think about um medical education and medical schools and the way in which philanthropy um played a role in in their development and establishment. Um I think there's a philtres pic you know story for almost everything uh we think about um basic you civil rights and some of which are are under attack again the the right to vote and the role that um nonprofits supported by foundations and other donors played in helping to make that happen.

You think about the progress that made been made in terms of criminal justice reform, the rates of incarceration. I think there's much more progress to be made. But the progress that's been made and things like the disproportional rate of incarceration of black men in this country, the progress that has been made has been a result of amazing nonprofits like equal justice initiative supported by generous donors, clean air, clean water.

These are the result as of environmental advocacy to try to get companies to curb their um their their pollutants h or to get government to regulate certain activities and that have been successful and that have had to, again, cleaner air and cleaner water. Then we would have had the list just goes on and on. Museums.

arts and culture would .

be bleaker r the art that we enjoy. You know, i'll stop.

No, no. I mean, I, regardless of anyone listening, could identify with some of the different action mission we can all get behind clean water.

clean air wall. yeah. And just to think that I think you put in in, in perspective really well there that there's a lot of things that we enjoy, that we have a hard time pinti, one where they came from and to see that no profits had an active role in the society we live in IT just, I don't know, because the smell of my face makes me happy that they exist and that there is no profit to doing great work out out there, even if they are now profits. I don't know about if you .

trace the back and dive in the history, often times you brother can tie that to turtle or organizations fill. So you can hinted IT at the fact that phantoms py, how it's been declining in recent years, maybe show some light there. Like why has that been a trend .

that we've been seen recently? Yeah, it's hard to know exactly why. And I think that what i've learnt over the years is may be blinding the obvious, but that the answered the most questions you know when we're looking for why is it's a combo platter of of of reasons. But just to start with, the problem a two decades ago um in this data comes from the lily school at inDiana university, about two thirds of american households we're giving to charity. The most recent data is just under half so the rates of giving have declined.

Um for a while that I wasn't maybe seen as the crisis IT is because there was so much wealth creation that the sort of mega givers were able to fuel an increase in overall, giving that in a way mass the problem of a decline in the rate of participation. But now we're seeing that flattening out to particularly when are you adjust for the inflation that has occurred in the last couple of years. So we've actually seen.

Year over year declines in giving, which is not something that we're used to in which has real consequences for vital non profit. So to your question, why um there are so many possible contributors. One I think has just decline in trust and institutions broadly in our a society. More sentiment M A polar ization, right a sense that um that that a the a sense of distrust in institutions essentially. Um I think that there's also there's a lot of religious and religiously affiliated giving and and because there's been a decline in religious participation that has probably played a role for point to um some of the impacts on the middle class of the you know great recession even as long ago as IT was that that played a role fifteen years ago. I guess now in some decline in rates of of charitable giving, my own senses also that is a society we have not sufficiently paid attention to the accomplishments of non profits.

There's a tendency to see nonprofits as lesser than um to not think of about them as we were just discussing or when we do to imagine that they might be staff ed by people who you know couldn't quite make IT in the business world or something when in fact, my view is that IT takes everything to run nonprofit, that IT takes to run an equivalent inside business and a lot more. It's a harder job and nonprofit staff are often some of the most talented in the country. But I don't know that that stories been told and that there's been a tendency instead to focus on the isolated scandals or controversies which are real and should be um you know should be addressed.

But people generalize them and assume that there are widespread problems and management or leadership of non profits when that's just not the case. So I think it's it's so many different things and and I would then turn around and point the finger at myself and those of us in the in the nonprofit sector who'd made careers of this work and say we have not figured out how to tell the story well enough. And so I think part of the part of the blame lies there as well.

What is interesting um you're talking about people who working on profits. I think a lot of times, you're right, they're just as talented and they are often choose on purpose to get paid less sold to do work that that they feel makes more of a difference than going out there into generalize corporate america. And not there's anything wrong with that.

But I think that there like yeah, those people are taking a significant pickup of them to do work that they think needs to exist in this world. I'm curious to what do our taxes, how do those impact how people give and how much people give? Because like the the tax cuts and draw back in any way, I had some significantly positive impacts or other potentially negative impacts. But how has that impacted giving in the the higher standard deduction ah just means that a laptop people gets a tax benefit from their donations.

Yeah, I think that's probably on the list of of contributors as well. Although i've mean that some more recent development in and I I think is i'm not a policy person, i'm certainly not a task policy person, but I would say that IT doesn't make a lot of sense to me that IT is only the wealthiest write the atomizers who we would give an incentive to give, right? So I would like to see a universal uh deductibility of curable uh gifts in our in our tax policy so that um so that folks who are you know everyday people uh making you know regular wages also get I also get that level of incentive for future of giving.

So I think it's a issue and and I honestly think it's one of those uh issues that people should be able to come together on across the partisan divide. I'm not sure that I have a lot of hope right now about people coming together across the partisan divide on much of anything. But this year should be one area where you can imagine some some agreement yeah .

so we ve talked about effective altruism on the show before. A lot of folks know about that. How would you say that effective altruism is differ from effective for anthropy? Could you talk about maybe be some of the differences of the comparing contrast?

The two? sure. yeah. I I would sort of describe effective altruism. And you guys tell me if you are different because I think it's shifted a what what people uh how people to find IT. But as this notion that um you should be sort of maximizing the impact on human lives of your chair of of giving and that that that's your moral obligation.

And Peter singer, the philosopher at prince and I think is sort of the godfather of this contact and I think it's a helpful chAllenge to one's thinking to say, okay, maybe I should give some of my cheerful donations to parts of the world where the dollars going to go further and where, I could say, prevent a death from malaria, potentially for not that much money, or you seriously affect the trajectory of someone's life. And I think that that sort of a useful intellectual chAllenge, I think, is a practical matter though effective ultra ism doesn't really work as a defining sort of framework for most people. And that's because um if taken literally, if applied literally, IT would mean you wouldn't give to the arts for example.

IT would mean that you wouldn't give locally in your own community if you live, for example, in the united states. And so I am, uh, skeptical of its utility as a practical framework to actually guide people because I think the reality is that philanthropy is rooted in our values and our sense of connection to other human beings. And so well, we need to apply our analytic minds to IT.

We also need to use our hearts and that the two uh go together um and so I think of effective philanthropy as something that allows for more diversity in choice of goals based on values, es and interest right? So I I think you know the goals that you guys would choose might not be the goals that I would choose. And I don't think one set of choices, and this certainly objectively Better than another, I think this sort of pluralism of fully anthropy the choice that people have is is a strength.

And then but I do think you should have clear goals. You should try to know what you're doing and make sure that you're giving is consistent with those goals. You should try to then give in a way that supports effective strategies to achieve those goals.

Um if you want to work a on a particular issue um whatever IT might be, um there are more and less effective path to follow, often more and less effective organizations to support. So I think that's important to pay attention to. Um and then I think it's important to have um information that you're looking at to gage your sense of whether the the folks are supporting or are in fact making the difference that they intend to make. Are they as effective as as you ve thought they were when you when you made those guests? Those are important questions to ask, but we gotta keep the heart and values, uh, center to this as well.

I think I like how how you mentioned hearts there and and you said, like objective truth, it's almost like a difference between more of objective approach to charity and a subjective approach, right? It's like are we talking about some sort of absolute impact that these dollars are going to have on individuals? Or maybe the relative impact relative to you relative to you? And as you know, yeah you know like me, this is a personal finance show and so much of kind of the decisions that we make do have to do with personal preference. So I like how you distinguish two there.

I want to ask specifically about you talk about the fixation on overhead, and that's something mad i've talked about on the show before. two. And maybe we should probably think a little differently about that. This conversation is, is making me want to think about what other things and no profit might be doing and not just thinking about how efficient are they, but what are some of the best resources for finding the most effective charities and how do you judge whether not a charity is effective.

I mean, those are really difficult questions because there is not like a universal metric by which we can compare the organization working to improve graduation rates in cleveland against the organization working to reduce co two emissions. You know, in brazil, the metrics are different.

And so that's why I think people gravitate toward overhead because IT is something you can compare different organizations using the same ratios, but that doesn't mean that you should look I think it's reasonable to say what what does this organza budget look like, how they allocating IT? You know, I think it's reasonable if two organza are doing essentially the same thing to look at the budget relative to the amount of that thing that they're doing. Although it's relatively rare, you're going to find that apple to apple kind of comparison.

But honestly, what I would ask is what is the organza trying to do? IT comes back to what I was saying before. What are their goals? What are their strategies for achieving these goals um and what indicators are they using to assess progress? Can they tell you a story that makes sense, that answers those basic questions? If they can, then they are in the best position to decide how to allocate your gift.

And if they're investing in something that some might categorize as overhead, like increasing staff salary so they can retain the best people because they're having trouble retaining their front line employees or making technological improvements that will help them do their work more effectively, do we really want to disincentivize them for doing that? And if we don't trust the leaders of organizations a enough to be able to make those judgements about how how to allocate resources within their budgets to pursue the mission that they're dedicated to, then why are we funding them at all? And then in terms your question about where where do you go to to figure this out?

Um i'm not a huge fan of some of the popular sort of charity rating um websites because they are they do tend to be too focused on these financial ratios, which I think are not helpful out of context in which rightly vary based on the kind of work they are being done and then people apply them without that a context or new ones. So so where where do you go? I think your local community foundation is a great place to start.

So almost every community in this country has a community foundation that exists to match donors and non profits in in that community. I think there are this might be an outdated number now, but at least eight hundred community foundations in this country. And there's a community foundation finder online, I believe, on the counts on foundation's website. You can go find your community foundation and they can help you alive your priorities. With orange zain, your community that they have veit and no to be effective working in those areas that matter to you so that that's the best advice I can get.

No, I think that's a helpful context to put IT in because when you are looking at certain metrics like expense overhead, like it's almost like a waste, the bottom, if that's the only Price that you're looking at, at which point maybe there are different sacrifice and not sacrifice, but decisions some of these no profits make.

And at some point, I don't want to put a red box machines with foods to feed the homeless. And i'm like there there's there's no personal touch. And so I get I get why that's a faulty metric. So um we've got so much more that we want to discuss what you fill, including um okay well then how do we come up with effective of golden and strategies to be wise givers get to a bunch more with will be came in right after this.

If you're looking to take your money game to the next level, then you can keep doing the same old things that you've always done. Maybe you are saving up for a wedding or maybe like a lot of folks, you're socking away money for a solid down payment on your new home. What what's off some? But these are ambitious goals and is going to take getting organized with your finances, which is where monarch money comes in.

Monarch is the top ated all in one personal finance APP. You get a comprehensive view of all your accounts, your investments, transactions and more. You can create custom budget.

You can track progress toward financial goals and collaborate with your partner. Plus monarch helps you to make smart money moves to get you close your to your goals and now get an extended thirty day free trial. When you go to monarch money, duck com slash how to money.

The truth there is, no one wants to spend hours juggling accounts or having some really please spread sheet unless you're mater. But long into monarch, you can see IT all in minutes. After trying out monarch for myself, I totally understand wise to Operate the personal finance APP.

And right now, lives of this show will get extended thirty day free trial when you go to monarch. Money 点 com slash how to money， that's M O N A R C H O N E Y 点 com slash how to money for your extended thirty day for each trial。 Go to monarch money 点 com flash how to money for an extended thirty day free trial。

Man, not sure if you knew this or not, but procrastination is my middle. Me, i'll thought your middle was David. Now you are wrong. Well, the truth is, I would often rather put off more difficult tasks, which can then make them feel even more daunting as the deadline approaches. But by taking that out, I end up needlessly overcomplicating my life.

I get IT take creating will trust, though you like you might be tempted to procrastinate, you may feel complicated, but doesn't need to be trust in will makes creating your will easy, like launching on the cow easy. And you can get ten percent off a trust in will. Dcom slash hot of money.

That's right. Ah IT can seem complicated IT can seem confusing, but that's where trust will simple step by step process guides you from start to finish one question at a time. They break IT down into manageable bite size approach, able steps in the on top of that you are doing the same thing for your loved ones.

You are saving them time and stress by having all of your documents in one place with bank level encysted. Of course, you can just sleep good at night knowing that each will or trust is state specific. It's illegally vowed in is customize to your needs.

So let trust and will be complicate the process for you, protect what matters most in minutes at trust and wild com slash how to money and get ten percent off plus free shipping that's ten percent off and free shipping at trust and will dock com slash how to money. Imagine being a student right now. You're twenty twenty four the year without access to wifi. It's a disadventure ge.

Millions of households actually still don't have wifi.

So I was reading about what eighteen t is doing and is pretty incredible. What they're doing is equipped twenty thousand students, so twenty thousand kids essentially in need with backpacks loaded with laptops and school supplies to get that connection. You've got this generation of kids that are gonna the the teachers, doctors, you know, health care workers.

Ed gar masella is his name of friends of the children in seattle to charity, but eighteen and t teamed up with, he has a quote, he says every backpack and laptop provided by our generous partners isn't just a gift, it's a lifeline. He says these tools lay the foundation for our youth, ensuring they have the same opportunities to learn, grow and succeed as anyone else. So it's very .

important connecting changes everything. A, T.

We are back from the break talking about giving done right with filled you can in and fill. You just mentioned how we should be looking to different local community foundations. And a large part of that too, when you are looking to organza that are geographically close to you, is the ability to even volunteer in person totally. How important do you think that support is that non financial support to some of the .

different nonprofits that we care about? I mean, many profits is absolutely vital, couldn't deliver their programmatic work without volunteers. IT obviously varies non profit and not profit depending on um what the organza is doing. But um volunteering as you say, can be a great way also to just get educated about um both the particular non profit and just the nature of the work and it's super you know fun. I mean one of the things that is interesting and this is not like research that we've done, but i've read research by a variety of folks, including people are noted dam who have studied the effects on the human brain of giving and volunteering IT literally will make you happier if you get out there and give both of your time and your money. And and like I said, a lot of our profits are really dependent on that volunteer support.

What about someone who's listening and says, but does that the government fund a lot of some of these causes, they trying to tackle some of the same missions that non profits are trying to tackle? How do you think about the nonprofit response to certain issues versus government involvement? And are they working in tandem? Or is this a cause for some people to stand on their hands and not give? First of all.

a lot of on profits do get government funding in the in the form of of contracted previous kindness, right? So um the government is often looking to non profits uh to do certain kinds of work out giving A F I on the board directors of the national council on aging um which worries about the quality of life of older adults uh and the national council on an aging gets federal funding for programs that they then grant out uh to local senior centers in communities that provide various services like education on false prevention, for example, or a job training for older adults who want to get back in the workforce h so we sometimes think of government and nonprofit is more separate than a are in the sense that non profits are often contracted to do work with federal funds.

I mean I do think that um in other countries that have a more robust social safety net, there is less of a need for certain kinds of non profits. And there is been you know a lot of critique of um filly anthropy and non profits from folk sort of on the ideological left. Let's say, who will argue well, this should be the government's work and the billionaire should just pay their taxes and you know that sounds kind of convincing until you think IT through and realize that actually you know the american people have voted for um the folks who are who are making these decisions in this country and and we have I might I might like a different outcome I would like a different outcome.

But the fact is we have not we have not elected to have that kind of social safety net in this country. Um we literally have not elected the people who who want to put that into place. And so in the meantime, yes, we can focus on advocacy to try to get that to happen so that the government does more.

That's totally legitimate and you can do some of that legitimate ilana ropy ally in the meeting time. There are needs that have to be met every day. So it's too easy to just kick back and say, well, the government should do this because some of that the government should isn't doing. And so if we care about our our fellow citizens, if we care about the most marginalized among us, if we care about our neighbors, then philanthropy match like ideal.

is immerse reality on the ground.

I think so yeah.

what are the ways you've addressed our ability to assess different nonprofits like you mention the head in the heart. yeah. I also thinking about just some of the different trends that we've seen within, like the giving space, like there are different organizations that just get really popular for one reason or the other and something else that keeps ring in my head that he said earlier IT, was, is that an organization has an ability to tell a story. And so are there some organizations that just get lucky with how IT is? Are the able to communicate the needs that they're looking to address to the american public?

Yeah I mean, I think what you're saying is so important because sometimes we confuse what sounds like IT would work with what works, and we give on the basis of something sounding like IT would work. So an example, this is an older one but you know program called scared straight where um the the goal was to uh encourage high school students not to get involved in criminal activity and the intervention was to have formally incarcerated. People come speak at school assemblies about the mistakes that theyd made in their life and that program got a lot of funding. When IT seems that would work.

IT sounds like IT .

would work right. Like you see, well, I wouldn't want to be like that guy and have spent seven years in prison. Well, when I was rigorously evaluated, multiple studies discovered is that I had the opposite of the intended effect IT made Young people more interested in in crime rather than less.

Was really cool.

Exactly do that exactly hit and and so that would be an example in sort of a negative direction. I'll give an example on the other side. Um I think for decades people have assumed that you can't just give money to poor people to help them get out of poverty a because IT will to be sustainable, they will make the right choices.

Any number of reasons. But there's increasing evidence uh that organizations like give directly, which is international uh cash transfers to people in poverty and up together here in the united states, which is a similar model where folks are literally being identified as in need and able to benefit from direct cash transfers and they're receiving that cash. And the evaluations that have been done suggest that IT does change the trajectory of their life, is certainly changed the quality of their life in the near term. They're receiving their money but then also allowing them to get on a different trajectory, whether that's by pursuing educational opportunities that they might not have otherwise been able to or retiring debt. There's another amazing organization called I called R I P medical debt um and you know they're literally paying off .

people's medical debt .

yeah but .

but formally known .

as our IP medical .

det .

um sure if you google at the new at name will come up and you know just as simple as as helping people get that you know off their back is is transformative. But IT is the kind of thing that you there's this kind of Peter nal isc sense that people sometimes have of well but that person won't make the right decision and you know they won't use the the money the way the way that I would.

But actually people are smart about their own lives, you know, and people are a good position to know what they need. And one of the things i'd like to see more of in philanthropy is trust. Trust in the people in communities who know what they need, trust in the non profits that are working in those communities that know how to do the work.

And have a little bit last of the assumption that I often see from you, like the tech billionaire, that because I was really good at that, i'm going to be really good at being a philanthropist when in fact, it's kind of a difference set of skills. There's a lot of knowledge already out there. And IT takes IT takes us a commitment and humility to really get good at being at being a fully anthropic yeah by the way.

the new name of R I P medical death is undue medical debt. So thank you. I don't know why they change the name.

but you've been to run a long time now and that the R I P was just a little too lightly, a little much like straights. They really were .

like axing and killing medical dead. And they still are. I like that. I like them, but they knew what about to just a great orgasm that what you're doing i'm i'm curious you talk about not giving just because you were asked to give and that is kind of one of my puppy.

S and this time of year, I think it's especially IT may be close on your heart strings. You're walking into the grocery store and someone's raising money for a particular on profit um and sometimes I have no prompt people who want to give in that way. I feel like a scrut. I'm saying no, but I have I have plans for my giving and so that's the reason i'm saying no in the moment you talk about giving in accordance with your goals in your strategies. Can you kind of elaborate on that and how you see the economy, I guess, between being asked maybe moment of emotional vulnerability and having a rethought plan for how and when you're going to give yeah right.

There's a crowd and nine people behind you. It's the holidays you're in the store and the cashier says loudly, do you want to give two dollars and fifty cents to help end cancer and you're like, oh, do I want to be the guy the guy saying no to that question right now but but you actually don't know anything about where the money is going and you're not thinking about what your priorities are in that moment. And maybe you do want to give to organizations working to and cancer, maybe that's really, really important to you.

And if you say no, IT doesn't mean you love cancer, think that's how what .

makes you feel. I do IT in your dining room out do little research. Maybe there are maybe there are certain organizations that are more compelling to you than others. Don't just respond in that moment and and it's hard, but I think you can say, oh, no, you know I really believe in that, but I I actually do you know my chairs about giving you know at the end of the year and I I have organizations I give to her whatever you know not like the person at the cash is probably needs to hear all that. But but I think if if it's .

helpful for me, you know.

yes, exactly. But I just think if you just respond, you will look back and say, okay, I spend all this money. But IT wasn't on my priorities. IT was just saying yes to people. And so what I say in the book is is look, you're not going to be able to one hundred percent you know do this when you're needs. Says on raising money for the school project and it's this organization, you know that does xyz like you're going to help your niece with your project, right?

He supposed to raise x amount of money or your friend is doing A A bike race or or a run, that's fine, but just try to limit that budget, make IT twenty percent for the stuff that you're gonna have to be responsive to because if your knees or your friend and then make the eighty percent a line with your a priorities and and I think you know, I mean, I made that up, right? There's no magi C2But I m ea n tha t it' s som ething to pro vide a l it tle bit of gui dance and cla rity and you can eve n exp lain the fol ks lik e you. I have these charitable priorities like like I was saying before and I I just gotten protect my ability to pursue those.

I think it's possible this time of year too that some people and I don't want to cases versions, but it's just true when you look at the news and you see reports of people who are uh try to like money for charity that don't exist. So there are scams out there as well. The people need to be aware of maybe not even some non profits aren't schemes, but they are, I would call limn, maybe scan at Jason.

We've talked about on the show different even professional athletes feel who starts their own nonprofit. And when you look at the numbers, like it's not about like high overhead, it's about pathetic results and just some of these nonprofits, they've got A A fantastic figure head at the top, this celebrity or something like that. But they're really they have employed their best friend, something like that, they have both six figure salary like this, not profit is doing almost nothing, but it's it's getting a lot accolades because of the people that are attached to IT. How can we protect ourselves maybe from the worst kinds of charities out there?

Yeah I think I think I think first of all, by not saying yes in the moment, whatever the whatever the moment is, whether it's the cash register, the phone called the person in front of you. Um but then also seeing see who else supports them, like if you are interested. Okay well let me see.

I mentioned in community foundations before, like community foundations have staff who do a level of that that makes IT um you know somewhat less likely um that you they're giving a major grant to that organization that that is that is problematic. Other staff ed private foundations, similar situation. You're going to know that they've been through some kind of real selection process um and and you know I mean, I try to be like new wants about this.

Like i've said, like don't fix IT on overhead metrics and and I believe that but at the extremes, uh, they can be relevant, right? Like if in fact, the bulk of money is going to fundraising expanse by some you know third party corporate fund raiser. You know there are these sort of outlier examples where you have what are essentially shell on profits that are just generating uh profit to the third party fund raising consult.

And you want to obviously um avoid those like the plague. But there are plenty of resources out there on any particular issue area in the book I try to describe. Like if you care about this issue area, then here are some resources to look out if you care about this issue area.

Yeah, I can't go through IT all here. We'd be here all day. But like once you start to zero in, you will find the trusted sources that will allow you to identify organizations that are really doing excEllent work. And there are so many out there in every .

issue area like this is kind issue specific or issue dependent.

Yeah, it's either issue dependent or community dependent. I think there's different slices on. We are to go for a sort of aggregated data about, you know, these are some organizations that are doing good word. We've got more to get .

to with you feel are going to talk about how to create your own shell on profit. The kids there maybe had foundation. We'll talk about some different ways that we can all give more effectively and impact fully right after the break.

Every family has a holiday tradition, if not a bunch of them. My favor, one that our family does, was instituted by my dad a about two years ago. He called himself the bad elf, and he gives everyone a hilarious and unnecessary gift that we didn't ask for, specially our Christmas highlight now.

And the truth is, the heart of holiday traditions is family. But what happens when you're gone? Protect your famous future and your piece of mind with policy genius. With policy genius, you can find life insurance policies that started just two hundred and ninety two dollars per year for a million dollars of coverage. Some options are one hundred percent online, and that you avoid unnecessary medical exams.

Yeah, IT felt so good to have that taken care of. Once kit mi had a first kiddo to get life insurance in place role to know that the bulk of their expenses would be covered if something were to happen to me and for us, IT was the conversation where kate realized that she'd want to be able to stay in the house that we had recently purchased. Do not have to worry about mortgage payments. That is what took the scales for us. And if you already have life insurance through work and may not protect all of your family's needs or follow you if you leave that job, so consider your own term life insurance policy.

secure your families tomorrow. So you have piece of mind today had a policy genius, dotcom, to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. That's policy genius.

Docotor episode is brought you by navy federal credit union for over ninety years. They proudly supported their members with every action guided by the incredible service of more than two million active duty personnel, veterans and their families. Your dedication inspires them to back meaningful organizations like the mission continues, empower ing veterans to serve their communities.

IT drives them to actively hire veterans and military community members, recognizing the value and leadership you bring to every role. And IT reminds them to push themselves every day to do Better for you. And because of you, your service inspires them to always do Better for you because of all you've done for them.

Learn more about their commitment at navy federal dot org slash veterans, whether you actively serving, have served or a part of a military family. Navy federal is here for you. Navy federal credit union.

Their members are the mission. Navy federal is ensured by N, C, U. A.

And now award from our sponsors at Better ment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind?

Do you think your money should get up and work well? Don't worry, Better man is here to help. Veteran is the automated investing in savings up that makes your money hustle. The automated technology is built to help maximize returns.

meaning when you invest with Better man, your money can auto adjust as you closer to your rebaLance. If your portfolio gets too far on the line and your dividends are automatically reinvested, that can increase the potential for compound returns. In other words, your money is working like a dog, while you can be sleeving like one and snoring like one two, you'll never picture your money the same way again.

Better the automated investing in savings APP that make sure money hustle visit com to get started. Investing involves risk.

Performance is not guaranteed back .

the break we're talking about giving and giving effectively. And we've got the man who is perfect for discussing that very thing fill you can in with us who wrote the book giving done right and um feel that I for a long time, I guess, donor vice funds for these really expensive things.

They are kind of for rich elites and for the average middle person to don't vice when just didn't make much sense because the expenses involved and because I mean, let's be honest, average folks aren't giving six figures away on an annually. So what do you think about donor vice funds though, as the cost of come down, are they a helpful tool for Normal folks? Are or they like total overkill?

I think this could be a helpful tool. And like you see, the minimum baLances of come down, both, I think, a community foundations as well as at the other like commercial donor advice fund providers like a fidel fidelity charitable, a swab. And I think it's very convenient, right? Because you you've got your money at the in the df, you can invest IT and then you can just designate at which non profits you want to support that you can add to the deaf over time.

Now in the world that the Operating, not a profit world there are like critics of don't revise funds because of the fact that you get the tax benefit for establishing the don't revise find when you put the money in but the the money doesn't necessarily go out you know for years, right? Like IT depends what you choose. And and again, i'm not a tax policy person, so I want to wait into that one.

But what I would say is if you establish a death, you know use IT h don't just let that sit there. Italy really use IT for what it's intended to be used for. Um and if you do that, then I think I can be I can be a good choice, particularly if you know you've got at least uh, few thousand dollars a year that that you'd like to be giving away. And certainly, if you've got much more than that.

that makes sense. I mean, I think that's kind of one of the criticisms i've had, even though I have a donor advice fun and it's something that participate in and there's something about, I guess, what happens to you as the giver when is still sit there is like in a certain way like, yes, it's technical, not mine anymore. But I do get a direct it's not mine, but I still get you're still pill in the stream.

I still get a log in to my account and see that number. And so there's something psychologically or emotionally words IT almost like it's it's like I still has A A grip on you field. But so I guess maybe on that note, let's kind of finish the same with you that you and your book. But I talking about, I guess, the paradox of generosity. I talk about how the impacts of giving, how obviously can not only impact lows that you are giving to, but just maybe that psychological maybe that emotional component and benefit that we receive as givers as well.

Yeah I mean my colleague Grace nickle lett, I have a podcast called giving them right creatively enough um and um we have mixed gas on but the one the conversations that have really stuck with me have been with the the families and donors who have just decided how much is enough and have made a commitment to giving at a sustained in high level and what what that has done for them in terms of their own growth as people, their own sense of of what IT is to have a legacy on this earth that ultimately, you know, if if you're fortune ough to have considerable assets, you're probably not doing your kids of favor by having them inherit them all.

But you probably are doing them a big favor by, you know what IT looks like to really give in a big way. And as much as we all know stories of families that have been torn apart by fights over money and resources, you know whether real life in the business pages or you know watching succession on HBO or whatever network is on, i've witnessed almost the inverse of that the way in which a family commitment to giving can bond siblings and parents and different generations together school in really beautiful ways as they were learn what um the issues are that each of them cares about and as they try uh to support organizations that are really making a difference against those issues. So I think you just get so much out of that. And and I don't think people back with a lot of regrets about having committed a lot philanthropically, you might look back with regrets about whether you really you know needed that, that third car, which is now a pain to take care of. But I don't think you're gona look back with regrets about supporting a really great organization over the long term.

They say you don't miss what you give away and and it's amazing yeah how much of an impacted can have on us as individual. So thank you for sharing that fill. It's a perfect place to rap IT up. Thanks for joining us work in our listers find out more about you and your mission tell you will give .

more effectively yeah we have uh website C T P dot org. There's a blog with lots of resources about giving that you can access from that website. And there's also podcast giving them right and website for that podcast, which is giving to the right dog org .

perfect will make sure the link to the blog, the book, the podcast, all of the above film. Thank you so much .

for talking with us today .

for arman. That was was a good chat with with fill and man. He's just got so much good information about giving effective, and I feel like it's especially this time year. This is something we to highlight, something we like to highlight every year. I like to address .

the the guilt that one feels do you to give nine nine sense cancer? You're like a and I I will .

say i'm a people, please are but I still say no every time free now. But it's because I have such I know what i'm doing with that money. And so I don't feel bad because I know that I sound like i'm being synchy.

I just have other places that i've prety selective to give. So um I don't onely even give this bill. I just say, no, thank you. Not today. But and I think you can say that and not feel bad yeah but what's your big from this comment or or .

you can just go here and give a little bit just in the moment if you want to. I like what he said to about, you know, hey, the majority of the vast majority of your dollars, maybe dozens, ate that towards organizations that are strategically aligned with how does he want to give? And maybe that other twenty percent, not only can you support your knees, but you see the same and outside ring in the bell. You soon asked you after register, I kind of like that ability.

I don't put that say in the headlock or anything like that.

I welcome back. You don't do the dark tapper, underhand and drug hand and made a nice little how the movie a cut out. But my big takeaway is gonna be the resource that he mentioned, which was the council on foundations.

So it's C O F dot orgues where you can look to some of the different local community foundations that work with a number of local organizations that are. And so I think in that way, you can kind of rest assured that these dollars are being spent in a more responsible way, right? Is a level of.

City there. But then also the ability to see some of these dollars that you're giving go to serve the areas that are most geographically proximately, whatever you are. I think there's all there's like a high level of satisfaction. I guess, when IT comes to that kind of to see you're giving the loves to .

play exactly no yeah CF that org. I think my big ways when fill talks kind early on about how we don't think about how certain things came to be and and he's right, like IT becomes kind of the water that we swim in. And we fail to realize the impact that hundreds of nonprofits around the nation, thousands of non profits, are all like the right are having on a day debate, day, week to week, year to year basis.

And so IT makes me want to digging a little more to see, especially locally, like what what impact have these nonprofits? Like what are the not just even looking at the numbers, but man, how does my community look different? Because these nonprofits exist. And so I think that is a really good thing to recognize that the world we live in would not be the world we live in without any the nonprofits that exists IT just gives me even more excited to support the ones that that matter most to me that are doing the work I .

want to see happen in the world I do IT. So let's mention the beer you and I enjoying doing. The epsom was called for rena. This is a beer by halfway. Crooks, which is a top for matting loggers, means I don't technically .

know the difference.

Betwen top and bottom for mental loggers, I know that's prefer .

mine diagnose me .

something that we should know, given how they do. We enjoy the flavors, I don't know, like truly, hardly anything about actually brewing beer. This is one of our favorite local berries.

What your thoughts? So this one was really interesting because I feel like a lot of loggers are incredibly clean. This one was more esty.

IT was had a thicker mouth field. IT was think so yeah, I was like, more tue, he was A Y. I thought I was a joy, joy to drink this one.

But it's also, i'm getting more and more into loggers because I fed my mouth obliterated by so many beers over the years. Just kind of something a little bit chill, but that also has a little now see a little of flavor action going on. This pears.

I hit this boat for me. Yeah, somehow got that weight in the body while simultaneously like on gametime, it's still really bright. Leon acy IT still feels like it's no maybe that's because it's a fresh beer as opposed of something that's been sitting on the shells for a month .

on and or maybe it's because of the top for mentation, whatever that.

I'm sure it's that， joe, but I glad uni got to enjoy this one on today's episode. And head ever to how the money to come where we will have links to all of the different resources that filled you can that he mentioned during our conversation.

We've got an article about daffy, our favorite ah don't vice fund.

and we talked about daff there towards the end. But we're big fans in my criticism that the little thing that is not a doubt, I guess, in the back my mind, but it's the only question is the thing that he adresse.

What is just like if you use a donor advised fun folks, make sure that you are not just sitting on IT and somehow using that increasing number to make you feel good about yourself, right? Like really IT should be the the number of doors that you are able to deploy. And sticking the money in donor is fun isn't actually deploying the dollars just sort of sitting there in the charity pargeter ory sorts ah yeah .

but all linked to that too, because duffy is the lowest cost on advice on that. We know they do a great job and that we have dash there. They're got a great product, no doubt I M that's going to do up for this one until next time. Best friends out. Best friends out.