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Hello and welcome to Battleground 44 with me Saul David and Patrick Bishop. Today in a slight change from normal and partly because we're so backed up we're going to be answering listeners questions but we're going to try and do it in a certain amount of detail and hopefully we'll be covering some really interesting ground but fear not we will be back to normal next week with the start of our Warlords series.
Okay, first question, Patrick, is from Mark, and it's Rommel question mark. Really, he's the guy. Now, Mark is referring to a comment I think we made, Patrick, in the previous episode when we were discussing who was one of the finest commanders of the Second World War. And your suggestion, if I remember rightly, was Rommel. Mark doesn't agree. He goes on to say, I think success is far more often the result of
counterside incompetence that's incompetence by the other other side uh the taking of to brook when the brits decided that the gazala line and box defense were worth anything seems more about british incompetence than about rommel's brilliance rommel didn't understand or respect logistics and any good leader must so in his view it's a resounding no to your suggestion patrick what what's your feeling
Well, I think Mark should remember what the actual question was. And the question was, what historical figure would you look to as an example in appointing a commander to lead Ukraine on the field in its current difficulties? So you chose Bill Slim, which was a good choice. And I chose Rommel, not because I don't think Rommel was faultless, but I was citing him as an inspiring figure as
who could persuade those under him that they could win, even though they were at a severe overall disadvantage in numbers, in kit, and in strategic situation, which was true in Rommel's case. But granted, he was, I would agree with you there, Mark, he was greatly helped by British incompetence, but he still managed to achieve a hell of a lot, given that on paper, he and the Africa Corps were in a position of overall superiority.
weakness. Yes, he was cavalier in his attitude towards supply lines, et cetera, and was criticized by his own staff for it. But he wasn't helped by some of his colleagues, particularly the performance of the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean. So I think, you know, I stand by what I said. The question was, you know, what sort of person needs to take charge of Ukraine? Now it finds itself in this rather kind of disappointing situation, shall we say. And I would say that, you know, inspiration is
instilling in your men and your commanders the notion that you can win against the odds is a pretty important quality and one that is probably needed in Ukraine right now. Okay, and moving on to Evan Guthrie, who's a doctor from Philadelphia in the US. He asked a couple of questions, but I'm just going to concentrate on the first one. And this one's really for me. Thanks for the great podcast. I've been listening since the start. I love the latest Battleground episodes.
44 episode about sangshak i was wondering if you could dedicate future battleground 44 episodes to more about the campaign battle of imphal and anyone who's listening to the sangshak episode will know that imphal was the or at least the twin battles of imphal and kohima were heavily influenced by the defense of the 50th indian parachute brigade at sangshak
Our good doctor goes on to say, even as a true history nerd, I must confess that I knew little to nothing about the Battle of Imphal or its importance until recently. I read a memoir by Robin Painter called The Signal on her a few years ago and watched James Holland's history hit episode on Imphal. But if you have some book or other recommendations, I would be grateful. Well,
The best book I would go to, to be truthful, Evan, which is not specifically on the Battle of Imphal, but covers the whole of the Burma campaign. And as we've said many times on the podcast, you really need to understand the broader picture before you can really understand these individual actions, campaigns and battles.
is one by Rob Lyman. Now, we're almost certainly going to get Rob onto the podcast to talk about other aspects of the Burma campaign at some point, but he wrote a really excellent book a couple of years ago called A War of Empires, Japan, India, Burma, and Britain, 1941 to 1945. Brilliant.
But if you actually want to go and experience the ground in person, I'd also recommend one of Rob's tours. He does regular tours. This year, later this year, he's leading a 12-day tour to Burma called Beyond the Chindwin. And that runs from the 24th of November to early December. And if you're interested in joining that, either go to robs.com.
website, that's robertlyman.com or to the travel company that's organising the tour, that's sampantravel.com and if you type in Beyond the Chinwin, that should get you to the right place. Evan also makes a good point at the end.
He's speaking as a doctor and he says, I'd love if you could do episodes on medical care, both in the Second World War and how Ukraine is caring for both military and civilian casualties. So I think that's something we should definitely have a look at, don't you, Saul? I think that could be fascinating. Yeah, absolutely right. And we have had that request actually about Ukraine. So we really need to cover those bases, Patrick. I mean, you know, it's fascinating, of course, and hugely important.
And, you know, I'll come on to this later, but I've just been listening to a podcast about a guy in Afghanistan who was shot through the throat and survived. And the story of his medical care, you know, and you'll know this, Patrick, from having been out there yourself, the extraordinary work done by the medics, both on the battlefield, but also back in Camp Bastion. And it, you know, it's such a crucial part of any soldier's well-being to know that there's going to be decent medical care. So, yeah, I agree. It's something we should look at.
That's absolutely right. I mean, the CASAVAC service that was run by the helicopter pilots was remarkable and, you know, required huge bravery and skill to get into zones that were actually, you know, the battle was still going on in many cases, get the casualty on board and back within that magic, you know, golden zone.
window with you have to actually save a life back to Bastion where they had absolutely world-class facilities and many many people survived as a result of that performance by the medics that would almost certainly not have done so if they hadn't been as dedicated and as efficient.
I'm just going to read one out from Barry here. He says, a few weeks back, you mentioned that you had little, if any, information on what happened to German POWs after the war. And he says, perhaps I can add something with respect to my father, who was a German POW. Now, this is a result of Barry actually digging into family memories, I suppose, and also some archival research, it sounds like.
He says his father wasn't actually particularly helpful because, like many veterans, he'd rather forget that period of his life. He was born just outside Novi Sad in what was then Austro-Hungary of Austrian parents. I know Novi Sad. I used to go through it on my way into Belgrade back in the Yugoslav Civil War days.
He says, as I understand it, he was in the Yugoslav army when the Germans invaded. I have no idea what happened or how it happened, but he ended up in the German army. Well, this is quite a sort of common thing. You know, the winds of war blow you this way and that way, and you end up in places you would never have dreamt of before the war began. Plenty of people like your father.
And after various stints in Finland and Greece, where he was wounded, he spent the rest of the war on the Eastern Front, first driving a lorry, then a tank, then commanding a tank. And until a few months before the war ended when he was again wounded, and this time he ended up in Denmark. And his oddity came to an end at a camp, a British prisoner of war camp near Derby, and then Northwich, and finally in...
in Ashton in Makerfield. Now, this seems to be the case with a lot of POWs, people taken prisoner by the Brits. He ended up working on farms around Rainford, as did the other POWs from the camp. And at Ashton, he shared a hut with a famous Manchester City goalkeeper, Bert Troutman. You're probably too young to remember Bert Troutman, Saul, but I remember in my youth, he was still a big name. And indeed, they played together in the same camp football team.
In '48, when the POW camp closed, he was offered repatriation but had nowhere to go in Yugoslavia nor Germany, so he stayed and he ended up going back to his old profession of hairdressing, finally retiring from his own shop in 1977.
Anyway, this is a fascinating story. There are lots of stories like this. And in fact, I can add one myself, a little memory I've got concerning a former German prisoner of war. I was brought up the first six years of my life in the village of Charing in Kent and living opposite us was a family. And now the lady of the house was a maid of Kent.
she being born east of the Medway. If she'd been born west of the Medway, which divides the county roughly in two, she'd have been a Kentish maid. This is kind of peculiarity of how Kentish people define each other. Anyway, her husband was called Werner, and he'd been a prisoner of war somewhere nearby, worked again as an agricultural laborer. And I think while he was waiting to be repatriated, he met his wife-to-be,
and settled down there. He was very popular in the village. He captained the local football team. That seems to be a recurring theme among German POWs. So, you know, it was heartening. Even as a kid, you know, I thought it was rather nice that, you know, someone had been on the opposite side. The war hadn't ended that long ago. Was now accepted in the community, seen as a human being rather than as an enemy soldier. So that's rather an uplifting little story.
vignette from my youth. Next one's from Spencer Timmons. He's an American army officer stationed in a NATO billet in France, as he tells us, and he's very much appreciated the podcast. He's got two comments and a question, and I'm going to run through all of them, actually, because they're pretty interesting. Now, the first one is a comment on US Army participation in the Pacific, probably as a slight response to me concentrating a lot on the US Marine Corps, because that's what I know about from my book, Devil Dogs.
As an army officer, I'm dismayed at the seemingly universal belief in the general population that the US Army fought in Europe and the US Marine Corps fought in the Pacific. This wrongly held understanding is buttressed by shows such as the HBO miniseries The Pacific and the large number of books and images showing the USMC hopping from island to island. Of course, I would never undervalue the contributions of Marines in combat. I would much appreciate acknowledgement that the bulk of the US forces fighting the Pacific
theater were from the US Army. Now, I think I made the point, Patrick, that they do deserve a lot of credit, but I didn't realize the imbalance was as big as it was. So Spencer goes on to say the USMC fielded around 250,000 Marines in the Pacific, while the US Army contributed more than 1.8 million soldiers.
You know, that will include everything, rear army troops as well. But even so, that shows you there's an awful lot of combat soldiers from the US Army. It conducted, Spencer says, something like five times more amphibious assaults than the USMC and the Pacific, and combined with the US Army Air Corps, provided the vast majority of logistics,
planning and fighting. So thanks for that, Spencer. And just to add, if anyone listening wants to go into this in any more detail, they should read a brilliant series of books by John C. McManus, the US historians, which is all about the US Army in the Pacific. The first one, Fire and Fortitude, that's 1941 to 43. Then Island Infernos, which covers 1944. And finally, To the End of the Earth, which is out in about a month's time, which takes the story up to the end of the war.
So point two made by Spencer is as follows. A year or so ago, I took a World War II tour in Carcassonne, France. Interestingly enough, led by a Brit who's lived there for some time. One of the more fascinating aspects he underlined was the tensions that remain to this day between those families in the area who collaborated and made money off the occupation and those families who tried to resist. Fascinating, eh, Patrick? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, the whole story of resistance, collaboration, the whole story of the occupation is absolutely fascinating, full of contradictions, full of moral complexities. But I think the first thing that has to be said is that the truth is that most of France...
while not exactly welcoming the armistice that was signed with the Germans on the 22nd of June 1940, which brought an end to the fighting, they were very relieved that the ordeal was over. The war had been an absolute disaster for the French and for France. It only lasted six weeks.
But the army and the air force in that time were utterly routed. Now, the man who took the, I don't know, responsibility for the armistice was Marshal Pétain, a very old man, even then a First World War hero. He was the man who held the line at Verdun, with a great onslaught of Verdun, one of the bloodiest passages in a very bloody war. Now, he was a hero for that.
But he became a hero again for taking the decision that the army should lay down their arms. And his prestige only increased when he told the French people that this was not just the only thing to do. It was the right and proper thing to do, thereby making it sort of morally OK, if you like. Now, at that time, de Gaulle, Charles de Gaulle, was a nobody. He was an obscure individual.
army commander, a military theoretician. No one outside of military circles had heard of him. And that stayed the case for quite a while. He was just a voice on the radio no one had hitherto heard of.
broadcasting from London. So according to the Vichy regime, the collaborationist entity that took over the running of France, basically doing the Germans bidding, they regarded de Gaulle as a traitor and indeed he was sentenced to death in absentia. But by 1944, the roles have been reversed. So it's de Gaulle who's the hero now and it's Pétain who's the traitor. But the change took years to come about. And in the meantime,
Most French people were what they called attentistes. That's people who are waiting for the outcome to see which way to jump, if you like. So in the meantime, those who actively collaborated, those who actively resisted, it's pretty small numbers we're talking about here. Of course, the numbers rise on the resistance side dramatically in early 1944 when it's clear that an invasion of northwestern Europe is imminent.
But as to actual collaboration, what is collaboration? You've got collaborators of all different stripes, all different motivations. You've got those who genuinely believed, I think like Pétain did, that cooperating with the Nazis was the only way to protect France from even greater suffering. Now, this attitude, although it sounds kind of logical and indeed sort of moral, is
It resulted in some appalling betrayals, not least the French authorities' collusion in rounding up French and foreign Jews and sending them off to the death camps and the hunting down of resistance and communists. That's one end of the scale. Others who got, you know, quasi-criminals, opportunists who just see a chance to make a quick buck to get some prestige, to get some power.
And then you've got another group, a very small group, who are real fascists, real ideological fascists, anti-Semites and Hitler enthusiasts who welcomed the new Nazi order and thought this is exactly what we should be doing in France. So occupation forced people to make very difficult decisions. It's certainly true, Spencer, that...
the experience did split families, as you heard in your tour in Carcassonne. And a very good example of that is Philippe de Hauteclocque, who is better known, much better known as Philippe Leclerc, a great French hero. He was an aristocrat, right-winger, devout Catholic, and had all the apparent prejudices of his class and the outlook of a professional soldier, right-wing, authoritarian. But when the war began, you might think that
With the defeat, he would follow Pétain, a man that he held in some esteem before the events of the summer of 1940, and follow him, as did many soldiers and many civil servants who followed him down to Vichy and carried on their work for the government. But no, Leclerc didn't do that. He left...
He managed to escape. He left a very large family behind, his wife and several children, six children he had, and took off for England where he joined de Gaulle. But some of his family relations, male relations, stayed behind and basically sympathized with Pétain and Vichy. Of course, Leclerc returned in August 1944 at the head of the Free French Second Armour Division and on 25th of August liberated Paris along with the Americans.
Sorry to bang on about this, but it's something that I know quite a lot about because I've been writing about it in my new book, Paris 44, which is about the liberation out in July.
So Spencer's question, which he finishes with, is can we suggest a book that covers in good detail the French North African forces who opposed the Allied landings in 1943? Well, it's a good question, Annie. It is quite tricky to find anything that covers this in any detail, Spencer. I mean, the French commander-in-chief, General Alphonse Pierre Jouin, wrote two memoirs, but they're both in French, the first of which is called just Memoir. That was published
published in 1959, I think. And then Je suis soldat, I'm a soldier, which was published in 1960.
If you don't speak French, the English language option, your best hope is Three Marshals of France by Anthony Clayton. And one of those, of course, is Chouin. Also, I found quite good when I was working on my Tunis grad book, which I'm currently writing, as some of the listeners will know, the official US Army history of the North African campaign, which has some really good information about the French forces. And that's called Northwest Africa, Seizing the Initiative in the West by George F.
And you don't even need to buy that, actually. Most of these green books can be downloaded online. So just tap that in and see what you can find out. Yeah, they're often very lively, these books.
American official military histories, aren't they? Rather against expectations. There's often lots of good anecdotes, lots of good character sketches and all the rest of it. So they're definitely worth a try. They really are, Patrick. They're one of the sort of, you know, unearthed treasures of history writing. And not least because the Americans, particularly in the Pacific, but also anywhere that they fought in the Second World War, they would...
gather together the after action reports and the historians would get down to the business of actually putting this stuff together really quickly after the events themselves. They are so far superior to the British official histories. It's hard to fathom. Okay, we'll take a quick break there. Do join us in a moment. With an hour before boarding, there's only one place to go. The Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. There, you can recharge before the big adventure.
or enjoy a locally inspired dish. You could recline in a comfy chair to catch up on your favorite show or order a craft cocktail at the bar. Whatever you're in the mood for, find the detail that moves you with curated touches at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club. Chase, make more of what's yours. Learn more at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval.
Welcome back. Well, first up is Benjamin from Toledo in Ohio in the States. And he says, good day, gentlemen. During your Eastern Front episode, I was reminded of something that came up in discussion of Russia in the present day. And he's basically referring to
Putin's rewriting of history, something that actually went on way before Putin, which basically gives sole credit to Russia for defeating Nazi Germany, leaving aside the enormous military contributions of the other allies involved.
And, you know, the fact that they got huge help from us in material terms, of course, with lend-lease, this was something that was an issue at the time. The Russians didn't tell our own people that the trucks that were ferrying all the supplies to the front were almost all, I believe, of American origin coming in via the Arctic convoys or from Iran or from the East. And so, yeah, there wasn't much official gratitude, shall we say, in that attitude per
persists very much to this day. Now he finishes with a question which I've done a bit of work on Saul, which
is, do you have any idea what percentage of the Red Army was made of actual ethnic Russians and what other nationalities contributed the greatest percentage of troops? Well, it is a good question. Well, as far as I can work out, in 1941, the Red Army was 61% ethnic Russian, 20% Ukrainian, interesting number.
and 4% by Belarusian, and the remaining 15% were all the other many nationalities inside the Soviet Empire. But of course, by January 1943, because of the ebb and flow of war, the ratio of Russians in the Red Army has increased dramatically because Ukraine and Belarusia have been occupied by the Germans.
So five and a half million men of conscriptable age remained behind the German lines. So the army by then was composed of 71% Russians, 12% Ukrainians, 2% Belarusians and 16% Russians.
Everyone else. I mean, all this very, very good data is not my work. It comes courtesy of Andrei Zhernovsky, who I came across on the internet. He described himself rather modestly as an amateur historian, but he's obviously a very good one.
And thanks for that, Andrei. I think one of the reasons that the numbers of other ethnicities are relatively low is that it was a prerequisite of fighting that you had to speak Russian, you know, for obvious reasons. And while we're on the subject of, you know, books to turn to if you want more, I'm just in the middle of reading a terrific book about the Red Army experience in World War II called Ivan's War by Catherine Merredale.
which is really excellent. - Question from Sterling Cooper, and it regards the 1944 podcast from a few weeks ago on the Burma theater, which of course was the Battle of Sangshak.
I'm curious if in your studies of that theater, you came across any historical documents about Americans fighting under General Stilwell and specifically the U.S. Army 464th Separate Battalion, a field artillery parachute regiment. My grandfather served under General Stilwell as a first sergeant from early 1943 through to the end of the war, and his memoirs have him being parachuted from India into China and Burma on multiple occasions.
At one point, he shared a foxhole with Stilwell himself all night while under attack and on another occasion was trapped and surrounded until being saved by Merrill's marauders. Well, Sterling's tried long and hard to find out more about this unit and he hasn't had any luck. So his question is, can I help? And by the way, he adds, your book, that's my book on the devil dogs, is fantastic.
Well, thanks, Sterling. I wish I could help more, actually. I did a little bit of digging into this unit, the 464th Separate Battalion, which is indeed, as you say, a field artillery parachute regiment. And the only reference I can find of it
is when it was part of the 17th Airborne Division, which took part in Operation Varsity, which I cover from the British angle in my forthcoming Sky Warriors book. And that's the crossing of the Rhine in 1945. And of course, nowhere near Burma. So what's going on here? Well, I don't exactly know. And when Sterling tried to reach out to the NPRC, that's the records office,
in the US. He was told that all the information regarding the battalion was lost in a fire, except for a copy of his father's discharge paper from 1945. Now, I'm slightly mystified because, as I say, the only connection I can see with the battalion is in the 17th Airborne Division, and that's in the wrong theater. The only thing I can suggest, because there is an awful lot of really useful information regarding US military archives, is to go to the US National Archives at College Park
in Maryland. That's not the one in Washington, D.C. It's a separate one. And all the military records are there. And even if you can't find anything online, because not all of it is adequately referenced online, I would go to the actual building. Anyone could get a reader's ticket, including myself. I've been there a number of times and just ask one of the archivists and see what they come up with. I don't exactly know where you live, Sterling, so that may be quite a trip for you. But if you do get the chance, I would give it a go.
So General Stilwell, this is Vinegar Joe. So why was he called Vinegar Joe? I don't know, actually. You've got the answer to that, Patrick. I haven't, but I think he was a pretty, he was quite an irascible figure, as I understand. He was a difficult character, yeah. I mean, you know, Stilwell, he was very much in the MacArthur mould, I think. I mean, Stilwell is often compared to MacArthur. He's sort of tough talking, but also, you know, interestingly enough, people who were very good at operating machines
with other armies. I mean, that's the theory. Stilwell, of course, was attached to the Chinese or operating with the Chinese. And MacArthur, of course, had done the same with the Philippine army. So, you know, they had that similarity too. But Vinegar Joe, I just think he was a tough, irascible character. Now, Jeff is asking about an incident on the 11th of July, 1944. His grandfather was among those fighting on Hill Hill.
112. You better fill us in on what the background this is to Saul, but Jeff is basically recounting his granddad's experience. He was present when the commanding officer was shot dead while up a tree directing artillery fire onto German positions. Well, good for him. That's really leading from the front, isn't it? He says there are several great books on the subject of Hill 112 by Tim Saunders and Major Howe, all very informative books.
It is an episode of the war that is obviously of great interest to me. And I wondered if you might consider making an episode on it. That's within your kind of area of expertise, isn't it, Saul? Yeah, I've never researched this directly, Patrick, but having written a fair bit about D-Day for the Sky Warriors book, I came across Hill 112. And of course, I read about it in some of the other classic accounts of D-Day. And it's an extraordinary battle. It actually goes on for a fair while, but it's
climax is in July. And by complete coincidence, I've just been sent a novel to give a blurb to if I thought it was any good, which indeed I did, by Adrian Goldsworthy, who's actually a Roman historian, but he also writes novels. And his book is called, believe it or not, Hill 112. So I do know all about the battle. I mean, it's an extraordinary, bloody and dramatic account of
the attempt by the British to capture Hill 112, which was an absolutely vital sort of location for the breakout of Normandy. This, of course, is a month after the initial landings. And it turns into a real inferno of a battle that's fought on the one hand by the 43rd Wessex Infantry Division, supported by the 15th Scottish Infantry Division and also the 4th Armoured Brigade. And on the other hand, you've got a whole series of
incredibly tough SS troops from the Panzer Division Hauenstaufen, that's number nine, the 10th SS Panzer Division Franzberg, and the SS Panzer Battalion 102, that's the heavy battalion with Tiger tanks. And it's basically a two-day climax in which the British attempt to force the Germans off the top of Hill 112 succeed temporarily and then themselves are driven off, which is where we get the account, I think,
by Jeff's father, where the commanding officer was shot dead whilst up a tree directing artillery fire onto German positions, as you mentioned, Patrick. So it's an extraordinary action and it does indeed deserve an episode of its own. So we'll certainly consider that when we get closer to the events in July this year.
Yeah, we're going to be doing a lot of stuff on D-Day and the Normandy campaign. So, you know, we'll definitely mark that one down for closer attention. Just going to read this nice contribution from Chris Pook, who says, love the podcast. Please, please, please don't describe the Gurkhas as mercenaries. All sorts of negative attitudes there. I must admit, I sort of slightly feel slightly uneasy about that label being attached to the dear old Gurkhas.
He says, under international law, according to Protocol 1, additions to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, Gherkas serving as regular uniformed soldiers are not mercenaries. He goes on, I was having lunch in London yesterday with two friends who,
who in a former life were members of the Gurkha regiment. And he says, I was probably the safest man in town that day. Well, I think you almost certainly were. I mean, I've come across the Gurkhas, as no doubt you have, Saul, and they're delightful. They're incredibly tough, but they're also incredibly nice guys. So, yeah, thanks for pointing that out, Chris.
Yeah, they're always smiling, aren't they? Which slightly belies their performance on the battlefield, which we know counts from Germans and Japanese and everyone else. And of course, the Argentinians in the Falklands, Patrick, that they are incredibly redoubtable.
I think that's probably my fault for calling them mercenaries, actually. I mean, truth be told, when they did start serving the British in the 19th century, they were arguably soldiers of fortune. I mean, they were serving for the money. But of course, there's a difference between that and being called a mercenary. I do get that. So, Chris, we appreciate that correction. Thank you.
you. Nir Kozlowski has asked an interesting question, actually. He doesn't say where he's from, but thanks for this, Nir. I'm amazed how, for an amateur historian, almost all your shows add a lot of knowledge for me. Thank you for that. You mentioned in one of your episodes that Britain built its imperial units in the Indian army, mixing and separating the various ethnic and religious groups. Well, Britain also had Palestinian units, i.e. mandatory Palestine. These units were composed of both Jewish and Arab volunteers and
However, units were understandably predominantly Jewish. The first units even fought in France in 1940. Another unit served in the North African campaign and then Greece, where they were stranded during the evacuation and all the troops were captured. He goes on to say in 1939, when the war started, the Jewish leadership joined the British war effort. And that included the Ergun, whose leader, David Rappaport,
Razael was killed in a British mission in Iraq. Lehi, the stern gang, split from Ergun at the time as they continued to fight the British mandate. Now, this is something you know a bit about, isn't it, Patrick, having written a book about this? Yeah, I know a fair bit about it. And it is indeed true. It's a very interesting Zionist ideological dispute at the beginning of the war because, uh,
As you say, the war sort of created a crisis of conscience for those Zionist militants who were agitating to kick the British out of Mandate Palestine. Now, David Raziel of the Irgun decided that his duty lay with joining the Brits in the fight against Hitler and fascism. But there were others involved.
ultra Zionist like Abraham Stern, who is the leader of Lehi, who decided that no, they were better off, this may sound incredible, this is actually what happened,
Stern and his followers, a very small number we're talking about here, thought that they were better off siding with the Nazis against the Brits. And they even went as far as offering their services to the German legation in Lebanon. Without result, it must be said. So as a result of this, Stern became public enemy number one. He'd also been carrying out terrorist terror attacks against the British army.
police force, actually. And he was eventually hunted down and shot dead in murky circumstances in Tel Aviv by a British officer in the Palestine police, Jeffrey Morton, in early 1942. It is an absolutely gripping story, all the twists and turns of the ideological dilemmas of the time, I suppose. And if you're interested, you can read all about it in my book,
It's called The Reckoning, Death and Intrigue in the Promised Land. I've written a fair few books, but I must admit I really, really enjoyed writing that one. I'd been based in Palestine as a journalist, Palestine, Israel.
as a journalist. So, you know, I'd sort of lived the present day experience. And so delving into the past was a very rewarding exercise. A question from Graham here who asks, after listening to some of your episodes concentrating on the Italian campaign in 1944, I was wondering what happened to the Italian troops once the Italians had formally surrendered. And in particular, if they took up arms and participated in fighting their former German allies.
Well, it's an excellent question, Graham. And there's a very sad answer to it, actually. I mean, it's relatively long and involved. I mean, the armistice that the Italians secretly conducted with the Allies in early September 1943, of course, was bound to infuriate the Germans. And the first thing the Germans did when they heard the news is put into place a plan that they had already been preparing.
in central and northern Italy in particular. And this was an operation effectively to disarm the Italians. Now, the Italians themselves had only been given orders from their senior commanders to resist arrest effectively if anyone tried to attack them. And unfortunately, many of them didn't put up much of a fight and therefore they were incarcerated.
But that wasn't all of them. And of course, there were Italians all over the Mediterranean and on many islands in Greece as well. And it's on some of those locations, in particular in Cephalonia. And this was, of course, covered if you've ever read the famous novel Captain Corelli's Mandolin, where the Italians actually took on the Germans after the armistice. And there was a terrible massacre of the Italians. And it's the kind of, you know, the high point, the climax scene.
to the book Captain Corelli's Mandolin. But I should also mention that there were some Italians who actually fought on the side of the Allies in Italy. Those were the ones really down in the south. And they formed what was known as the Italian Co-Belligerent Army, which was at its height about 250,000 men strong. And they did some good work actually fighting alongside the Allies, as I say. So a bit of a mixed bag. But for the most part, the Italian troops were mainly disarmed and incarcerated.
Just want to reference one here from Paul in New Zealand who says, I'm loving Battleground 44. It sends me down so many rabbit holes.
and keep the Ukraine updates coming. Well, rabbit holes are sort of occupational hazard of this kind of work, aren't they, Saul? You start off in one direction. You find yourself very quickly ambushed and sidetracked by some fascinating little sideshow. And then before you know where a couple of hours have gone past, you've completely lost track of what you were meant to be doing. But that's an enjoyable way of passing the time. Now, Paul's question is about Saul saying that if
Japan had attacked Russia six months after the German invasion instead of attacking south through the Pacific, that Russia would have almost certainly been defeated. I'm not sure you put it quite that strongly, Saul. I'm not sure we can go into all this here, Paul, but it is a fascinating question, isn't it? One of the great what-ifs of the Second World War. In Paul's view, this really wasn't a real possibility. One or two reasons he cites here, the
They were prepared for a Japanese onslaught and so on and so forth. What do you make of that, Saul? Yeah.
Well, I've already partly answered this. A separate listener asked a similar question. And the answer I gave, I'm going to repeat, frankly, which is, yes, of course, the Kwantung Army was partly concentrated on China, which is a point that Paul makes. He says the Soviets had a lot of forces and were prepared for a Japanese attack. They did have a lot of forces in the area until they had to move a lot of them out of Siberia to help
defend Moscow and of course ultimately would be also used in subsequent campaigns. So the point is if the two things had happened at the same time they would have been in big trouble. And the other point about the Kwantung Army is that it would have been heavily reinforced if the Japanese aren't going to attack Malaya and all the other locations going south.
then they can devote huge numbers of forces to actually attacking Russia, which is exactly what would have happened if the northerners, that is the army had won as opposed to the southerners and the Navy in terms of their strategic battle.
Before we go, Patrick, I just want to flag up a really fascinating email I got from someone called Nick Lewis, who's a former army officer. And he wasn't writing about himself. He's actually writing about a friend of his, another former veteran called Ben Stevens, I think, who served in the Grenadier Guards, who in recent years has done quite a few things to help veterans from his regiment, fundraising expeditions. And this, in turn, brought him into contact with those of his generation who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and came back
injured. And late last year, as a result of all of this, he launched a podcast called Talking with the Wounded. And as Nick goes on to say, the episodes are 45 to 65 minutes long. And the format is Ben interviewing one wounded veteran who has an interesting story to tell. Most of the talk is about the circumstances of their injury, how they dealt with it, how life panned out for them afterwards, and what
they are doing now. And if all of that sounds like it might get a bit repetitive, you actually need to listen to some of these episodes. I mean, I listened to one today. It was by a former member of the Blues and Royal called Simon Maloney, who was a sniper in Afghanistan when he was shot through the throat by
with an incendiary bullet and survive Patrick. And it's an absolutely gripping account of what happens to Simon and what he does thereafter, because even though he's been shot through the throat, he carries on fighting and is eventually awarded a conspicuous gallantry cross.
The episode itself is called Best Day of My Life, which is how Simon describes that day, which might surprise you given what had happened to him, but not for the goat. And you have to listen to the episode to understand what the reference to the goat is. But it's really great stuff. And I would urge anyone with an interest in warfare in general, certainly modern warfare, to listen to that series because Ben's doing great work.
Okay, that's enough from us. Do join us for next week's episode of Battleground 44, when we'll be launching our series within a series, if you like, on the great warlords of the conflict. Goodbye. Bye.