Episode 35: The Value of Innovation and Venture Design with Eyad Hasbullah
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core. Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field.

We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google, and more join us previously, and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year. Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest, who is working in UX design. Hi, good evening, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Working in UX Design. Today, we have a very special guest. His name is Iyat.

And he calls himself a venture bricklayer. So I'm going to demystify that a little bit later by asking him what exactly does a venture bricklayer do? And he says,

There's also a lot of other interesting things that he has done in the past, working both in Malaysia as well as in Singapore in both product as well as innovation and change management. So today we're going to explore the topic of the value of innovation and venture design with Iyad and

Just to share a little bit about his experience and background, he supports the commercialization of large and diversified renewable energy in Malaysia, one of the top firms in Malaysia in this sector. And he does everything from

early stage strategy to product concept development to securing resources required to set up and operationalize new products and services. Right. So he sits on the sweet spot between product management, business development and technology, as he calls it.

And he also got taught in the 2020 Oxford FinTech program with the University of Oxford. So it seems like we have someone who is very regular in the UK, and he also has a design thinking facilitation certificate from the Copenhagen Institute of Interactive Design.

EAD recently also became an accredited angel investor and is currently based in Kuala Lumpur with his son.

Just a gist, we're going to cover things today related to innovation, design within an enterprise environment, as well as the models of innovation and venture design and how design skills can be applied to that. And we're also going to explore a little bit about Iyad's career history and how he

became an innovation and venture leader, engaging senior management and stakeholders. So we're going to learn lots from this gentleman today. How are you feeling today, Ian?

Hi, Daylo. I'm feeling mighty fine and slightly embarrassed to hear all of that stuff. When I write it, it sounds okay, but it's just an awful lot of chest beating, isn't it? I think a minor correction. It wasn't at the University of Oxford. It was the SAI Business School, and it was one of those executive education courses, which I did do rather well at. But anyway, it wasn't really a university. That's fine.

That's great. That's great. Because I saw it being a comma University of Oxford. But I know you're...

someone who learns a lot and constantly upgrades yourself. I've been in contact with you for quite a number of years, and I've seen how you've grown in your career as well. And I'm just wondering, like, what exactly does a Venture Bricklayer do? And why do you call yourself a Venture Bricklayer? Did they give you the title or how did it come about? No, no, I might ramble. Yes, you'll have to stop me for a bit. But, you know, when I was talking about

with the current company about possibly joining them. And it took a while. It took like a year, just a week. And I was wondering, you know, what is the actual title for what you want me to do? Because you don't normally have a job, so to speak, where you can do all of these things, right? So...

I remember the response came back, well, on LinkedIn, you can say you're doing anything that you want to say your title is, which I found quite interesting. And then the term venture bricklayer actually comes from another gentleman from this part of the world. I can't remember exactly which one it was now. I've got two names in mind. But he's someone I admire. I think he's in the manufacturing plantation side now.

But he used to call himself a venture bricklayer. So I think he was involved in one of the largest fintechs in the region. So I've kind of stolen it off him. I hope he'll forgive me. The reason why I quite liked the term venture bricklayer is because I don't really own the house. That would be whoever owns the IP, intellectual property, so to speak.

I'm not really designing the entire thing and making all the calls myself, right? So I view myself as being in service to the venture. So whatever is needed, I'm laying the bricks. I might be putting down a certain keystone or I'll be looking at a certain way of gluing things together or how to build up something like a foundation so at least things can be done. So that's how I understood the phrase venture bricklayer. And I think it fits quite well.

Much better than, let's say, the never-ending titles that can be rolled out on a CV, I think. I'd just rather stick with Bench and Bricklayer. Sounds good to me. And if you could enlighten the audience over here for a moment, what do you do on a day-to-day basis? That's such a great question. So it seems to go in waves, right? So there are activities where

sorry there are moments in time where there are periods where you're really looking at getting things together in place for the next year or the next five years right so in a large organization these are pretty set time periods depending on how they run their calendar it can last about three months where the real work is done and then apart from that there's a lot of

ideally a lot of focus on like how do you enable midterm results right so to be a bit more exciting i'd spend i'd say i'd spend a lot of time also looking at how better to facilitate or enable a better outcome for the partner or the customer right so in in the things i've been involved in recently there's been a mix of us holding the customer relationship directly

Or we go through partners and in both cases, you've got to treat them like your customer, essentially. And working that out often takes a bit of creativity, understanding the rules of the game you play, and also understanding what your own playbook is and getting that across to people, communicating it.

Having the right setup for decisions to be made. And last but not least is getting that feeling, right? So I've been involved in essentially the tech sales setup fairly recently or in a innovation, parts innovation department as well.

or in a venture, a corporate venture startup that was launching a new proposition overseas or its normal market was expanding. And in that sort of corporate venture startup in the tech sales, you're

You're really trying to embody the spirit of being a pioneer and being quite brave and breaking all the rules in the right way. The rules aren't broken in a way that you can't make right. So it's, I would say, problem solving, building relationships,

There's a lot of problem solved. And there's a lot of managing energies and emotions. And you want to have a good emotion because without the good feeling, you'll find that you don't get the right people in or they're not really that interested in supporting you. So being able to tell that story helps as well to get that emotional response. It sounds like a little bit of everything, but it does...

Seems to me like you do get your hands dirty and it does really aptly fit the term that you use, which is brick layering, which means you have to lay things down brick by brick and do whatever it takes to build the foundations for successful venture building in the corporate context. And I'm just wondering, you've been in this

side of things for a really long time, working on innovation, working on venture building for different corporates. And you're regularly launching new ventures, new ideas, things to out in the market that might, you know, sort of come into fruition only in the mid to long term. So I'm really curious, like,

As someone who has studied design thinking, who has studied

who regularly works with designers, how do you communicate the value of what you do? I think this is one of the biggest challenges today. As designers, we have to justify why we should continue existing in an organization and in a firm. And I think it's the same thing with building ventures. You have to justify why you should still have your job and why should they still continue paying you.

Unfortunately, we've all got to justify why we should still have our jobs. It's a bit interesting. So, being involved in mid-to-long-term projects, communicating that value and working with designers. Actually, I used to call myself a venture designer because I think there's an element of the areas of business strategy,

designing that in the context of, say, the larger enterprise strategy, in the context of the market industry you're going in, there's design involved there. And the reason for that is you actually have to validate a lot of the models that you're looking into or however you want to approach things, right? So in other words, I think design is at the core

of almost everything that I do. And I'll never forget the light bulb going off in my head when I feel like I personally finally got design thinking, truly got it. Being able to design every interaction, say at a very tactical level, at least in your own mind, and understanding how to use those skills to really listen, draw out insights,

It really helps with communication, right? So these sort of practices then get applied across everything. I think designers are some of the most passionate and creative

educated, the most passionate educated bunch of color grads because they don't need to go on courses to learn something new. They're constantly up to date on what's best for design or where the design crowd is going towards. Working with them, I actually have once had essentially the design group came up and mentioned that, look, we've got an entire design system

And I had misunderstood it for something like Canva. And it wasn't. It took me at least two weeks. It could have been longer. But to actually understand what they had. And they're still passionate about the business opportunity it represents. But having to bridge where they're coming from with what's out in the market is essentially where I'm sort of balancing as a fulcrum. And I haven't quite cracked it yet.

Normally, they'd be involved in work where, as you know, someone's coming up with some software or an app or whatever it might be, and the designers are there to look into it. And I think that it's a bit strange that they need to justify their job because design is in absolutely everything that we do. And I kind of wish I had that.

literally sat next to me on the business side because the quality of the conversation would be much better when it came to the human interactions that we'd have to deal with, right? I mentioned... Yeah. That one, I'll say. And when you're... And thank you for...

Thank you for having such a good impression working with designers. I'm sure we have a lot of design leaders and designers listening in our community and celebrating that. But I feel like it's almost like an art to evangelize something abstract, like design or innovation, right? And

I'm wondering how do you do that? How do you tell people this is important, please pay attention to it, and what I'm doing has an impact in the organization? You may not see it right now, but there's definitely a lot of value in it. So I'm wondering, yeah, what do you do? Because I think it's almost...

equally challenging to tell people, hey, you know, it's important to pay attention to design just as it is to tell people, hey, we should pay attention to innovation. Yeah. Well, there's a fairly... There's something we can all Google or chat GPT these days to answer that question, which I have done. And I'm looking at it now and I love this list. And then there's something that I would say...

Perhaps I've got one or two tricks that I use because a lot of the times these things that we use, right? So they've got, I mean, Chachi, the T-Skill, and me and this stuff. It looks like 14 things here. And I would categorize them to three things, right? Communication, lead by example, and essentially just do it. So I'll just read some out, right? Showcase success stories, which are...

I'm going to build the teams, right? That's what that is. Get a sponsor, right? Get a community around you. Promote design wins. Again, more success stories, right? Measure and calculate the impact. Yeah, that's all well and good. And then communicate the vision for that. That's all well and good. Personally, I have been in so many meetings in the office.

this where the designer or the product guy or the inventor so to speak as um it's just frustrated because no one's immediately getting and you know just just a little side message just to say hey look it's fine because they're not saying no they're just asking a question and the question is not an implied no the question is simply a question right so then

What we have to do is work together to get the answer to that question. And we've then got the opportunity to further engage them to do all those things that List and ChatGPT mentioned, right? Show the success stories, show why it's wanted, show how it's a positive experience, show the value of it emotionally, socially, functionally, right? Just get it out there and use it. So, and have it abused. So the other key thing is really to go first,

And then ask for forgiveness later, which is another bit of a cliche. But as long as you're doing that in a small enough way, but to the right people so you can get actual data and stories to show, I think it works very well. And you can then go back and ask again for what you want and keep asking. And then the other trick is if you make your ask small enough, people can't say no.

And there's this interesting psychological effect where if they give you something anyway, they're more likely to give you something again the next time you ask. And you can then just keep building up the ask. I think the big difference between, say, corporate venturing and being a designer who's, let's say, a permanent employee, right? You're actually part of that organization. And you're not a freelance designer on YouTube.

whatever platforms that we might use for these. I think the big difference is that the corporate animal is quite a risk averse animal. It's incredibly shy. It's very safe. It knows what it knows and it does it very well, but it doesn't necessarily roam beyond the boundaries. So when we want to do things and we're first meeting this animal, you need to just pull them along. And the

there's no forcing them to do it because they can be quite monstrously heavy and overweight. So, whereas if we're a freelancer, for some reason the dynamic is very different, I think, right? I think that you're asked for something very clear. The risk-making decision has been done before you've been approached and you're then going in

you know, completely committed to it. So it's that trick of understanding that communication and how to manage those relationships as a designer and just knowing where the context is and that comes through matters very much. And for that, getting to identify the one or two key voices really helps.

Because that's where you need to spend your time as a designer, sort of on the, let's say, educating upwards or bringing them along on that journey with your story before the bigger forum meeting. So that's really the only trick that has been, that I've personally done with like a designer that I can see that's just almost walking out of the meeting is having them to be patient a bit.

It's an interesting one. I really like the analogy that an enterprise is a big and shy creature that you kind of need to guide along in the process and prod along in the process. And this gigantic feature is that by some sometimes very, very senior people. Some people might say, hey, they're a little bit old school.

They're kind of like stuck in their own ways of thinking. Maybe they've been in the industry for a really, really long time.

Sometimes it's led by people who are visionaries and are very aggressive about what they do. So it really depends on who's kind of riding this giant creature on the very top. And I'm just wondering, you know, what you've worked with so many different management teams from M1 to Maxis in Malaysia.

um what are your tips for engaging the people at the top yeah wow um if possible if possible and I and I think it's actually quite impossible but you're only as good as your last if you were a chef you're only as good as your last meal and and this is the truth of it right so so then having the

integrity, to be able to keep your word and your promises, does wonders for having that excellent professional relationship at the top. It can get quite tricky because you want to make sure that they understand that you have your own way and your own world.

way of thinking, but if you can show them that this does have some form of business value. So in each of the companies has been very different. It's been very different because a lot of the more creative minds and I'm always very painfully aware and it is painful that the creative minds are not necessarily the ones that truly exist in the larger organizations.

right so a lot of times i get a job because they say and this is almost literally oh you think different so um and then they make the mistake of assuming i'm a startup guy when i was in truth i maybe know just a bit more than their average employee about startups right and i know a little bit more than the average i know a little bit more than the average employee about design but a real designer can often find that they're

put into this very efficient single line sort of mode, and then their creativity is dwindling, right? So the other side of being able to keep your word with the top guys that you need to have a good impression on always, the other thing is they are always going to try and run things efficiently. The entire gear box of an organization that is fairly large is about people

efficiency and optimization. If you're good at doing one thing, they will only ask you to do that one thing, right? So there are designers I've worked with who are just working on EDMs on newsletter designs and it kills them and they leave. But there are ones that gather that

you can do that and still have your own other pursuits and other projects that you're doing, as long as your core deliverables aren't affected. So you're adding value elsewhere. And then you can then show these to the top guys. Make sure that you're visible. Make sure that you're aware and be passionate about it. A lot of things that maybe don't

do us any good is if we don't demonstrate our passion, I think, in these large corporations. You know, it is, it is, it is, I think, a breath of fresh air. I've never,

found it incorrect to be passionate in the right way in any of those engagements. Absolutely stand out. Yeah, you stand out, right? Yes. Yeah. And you want to stand out and make an impression. And once you're passionate about something, if you can get that emotion and communicate clearly across, and it only happens with practice. So you've got to have this Kung Fu going. You've got to find ways to constantly engage in it.

That's when you become someone who's maybe, okay, let's talk to this designer, this brain, let's talk to this person about this particular problem and see what they think because we value diversity. So that's the last thing, right? The one thing that will destroy all these efforts is if you determine that they don't value diversity because that's the very beginning of design thinking anyway, right? So

Find that place that values diversity in terms of thinking skill sets. It sounds like trust, right? It sounds like it's about building trust. It's about showing up. It's about being consistent with your work. It also sounds like communication skills being really important.

And I also hear you say something about showing them the business value and they speak the language of efficiency. They speak the language of money in a lot of cases. Assuming I haven't gone to business school, right? I'm in design or I'm kind of like, I'll say I'm more creative. Yeah. What advice would you give me?

to be more effective at influencing senior management? Because of business value, there are a few things in design. Like we, well, I usually, when it's obvious that I'm using design thinking, it's because we're looking at customer journey or things like that. We're trying to problem solve something or have just that positive emotional point. It's such a great question. The

Business value of good design shows in many ways, particularly in, let's say, a great experience. No matter what it is, traveling to work, getting out of your car, getting into the office, lunch, eating in the pantry.

how the laptop works in the system and the communication software as you're using. That is all, design is in all of that. Those are conscious decisions that have been made by various departments and various people as to what is best for the employees and therefore best for the business, right? So that means that things like net promoter score, customer satisfaction, adoption rates, five-star ratings, all of that,

All of these are one example of value to the business, right? So that's incredibly important. Being able to have those customer veritims that describe a happy end user or satisfied end user or relieved end user is much better than not having it. The next thing is putting numbers down. So we're not on one of the other video conferencing softwares, right?

But they have the leave button right next to the share button. And until today, it boggles my mind that they've gotten away with that design because until today, people just end up dropping a call, not all the time, but occasionally, I was all pressed the wrong button and so I was in a hurry. So anyway, that can then translate into, let's say, inefficient working seconds multiplied by, let's say, the number of employees in the company,

multiplied by an assumed average output in terms of dollars, you've then got some element of business value there. And that trick I've used, sorry, wasn't me personally, it was a team, but we also looked at that when at one point I was involved in an online shop reviewing that. And we were looking at essentially the experience of it, right? Like page loading speeds, etc.

the placement of things on the page, yada, yada, yada. And then knowing how much money that shop made the previous year and knowing how long it took for a page to load and for a customer to navigate to the buy now button, suggesting a new design that reduced that by, let's say, one second, we were able to then say that you're going to make between this much extra and that much extra revenue from your online shop. And this was an online shop that was making money

eight digit sums of revenue, right? Total transaction value. So there are all these ways based on design and experience, user experience to come up with numbers, to come up with a bit more data, the stories and show that to the business. The last one is one that helps convince the top guys because

Remember, they're very shy. No matter how bullish or overbearing or highest paid person's opinion they can be. Actually, they're coming from a place where they're very shy of anything new or alien. So,

Once we've got that, the next thing I try and do is I try and get something comparative. I try to get the battle card, the competitor's analysis, the exemplar from outside, someone that's done it before. And I want to put that down and say, it's been done before, and this was what happened to them. This was the benefit they got.

It was done before, but they didn't quite do it this way. And this is how badly it went for them. There are numerous examples of these not only available. We have such a great, you know, a lot of stuff on Medium around these things that really help. And having those, because if you can find the stories from, let's say, a direct, something that's directly comparable to a known brand, then the top management guys will

see that we've done the research, right? That we've seen how other people are doing it as well as actually going through the problem ourselves. And that really helps. That really helps because they'll wonder how the other people did it. I think that's really excellent advice. And thank you for sharing that. What I gathered was bringing metrics, bringing numbers, bringing data to justify value, right? Especially commercial value of things. And it's an easy calculation, right?

It's about opportunity costs. It's about how much extra money they could have made or how much money they would lose if they do or they don't implement something like that. And I also like the fact that you mentioned how it's very, very important to engage them

through the process by showing examples. Whether it's worked or it hasn't worked, that's beside the point. At least they've seen people tried it and that's very important. So it sounds to me like as designers, we need to maybe read up a little bit more, right? We don't exactly have to become business experts, but we need to read up a little bit more to understand the language of business

And at the same time, we have to improve our own storytelling skills and research skills and bring it and present it to management and tell it in a very concise way, hey, what is the cost and benefit? Did I miss anything?

No, you haven't at all. And it's not always the one person that has to do it. There's so many forums where you can ask an innocuous and innocent question without giving anything away about where you work. There are people who will just jump on it and give you an opinion, right? And sometimes they've got their job title in their profile where they give you this feedback. So it's not that hard to do that, say, comparative analysis to get those stories.

or he's out there. And I've literally put into the narrative, the storytelling, like screenshots of these things with what these people have said, if I thought it would help. No, I don't think you've missed anything there. I'm probably forgetting some things myself, Daniel. That's okay. No worries. If they forget anything, you just have to rewind and listen to it.

But yeah, that's really excellent advice. And I think when I see innovation, there are so many forms of corporate innovation, right? There's venture building, there's like engaging an entire ecosystem or the entire startup ecosystem.

There's even things like venture investing, for example. So there's so many different forms a corporation or enterprise can engage in innovation activities. I'm just wondering, having worked in this space for so long, I'm just really curious, how do you decide what's best for an organization?

What fits the appetite, I would say. Daylon, you're asking all the tough questions here. Because, you know, honestly, I think a lot of times, like, I think everyone experiences their manager makes decisions for their own benefit rather than the company's. I think that's true, unfortunately. Which means that the only way to truthfully and honestly

with values and principles and ideals at the base of things, right? So we really want what's best for the organization. We have to understand what the organization is heading towards, right? Just understand that. The next thing is, as we're going through that journey, you've got to pull that very shy animal along, and they've got to experience it, right? So having, if you can, once you've got a place and you strategize with some people

mid-season, in-year people, how to get it. You do want to bring the top guys who may not normally engage in workshops with a cross-functional team. But actually, once you get their buy-in and they come along, that is critical because they've got along that shaping journey with you, right? So you can have an away day. You can have a lot of brainstorming going on and go through all the design things or some critical things.

questions. And then that sets the scene as to what is currently thought of as best for the organization. Because an organization articulates that through its strategy. And the strategies never change. In any company I've been in, in the three continents I've worked in, right? It's been the same ever since the Jack Welch era. Make more money for shareholders. We're going to expand and do things better.

It's always that. Then there's some other stuff which is always around like we're looking after the environment, looking after the people, we're good for the community, et cetera. So understanding how we articulate it gives us insight into which areas in particular they're focused on and what they think is good for the company. So a company that, let's say, shows the World Cup every four years,

Their CSR is essentially focused on football because they make most of their returns in those four years. On that occasion, there's a World Cup. So if you're looking at doing something for the community, you don't want to look at, let's say, a different sport. You want to look at something related to football or anything around that. So being able to really understand the strategy then tells you roughly the ballpark where the company is looking at.

And getting the top guys, and it takes time, work, luck. It takes a bit of effort, a lot of luck, and a bit of perseverance. A lot of perseverance to make this happen. But you can get the top guys to go through that design process with you. And it's usually quite, it begins quite staged. But if you can break down the barrier, like they'll come along.

Then you really understand what they think is good for the company. And if they're also the sponsor, you've pretty much hit the bullseye as to what's good for the company because that entire accountability rests in their office, so to speak, right, that they currently hold. And that I think is how I would answer that question for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think as I'm hearing you share a couple of things over there and

I'm just wondering, you know, you're someone that sits in an intersection of different things. I'll say more on the business side, but of course, you're also someone who is familiar with technologies. You're familiar with the methodologies of design and using design thinking, for example, to generate value in the organization. I'm curious.

I'm just wondering, how did you get here? What are the practical skills you had to acquire to do what you do as an innovation or venture design leader? Just in case that maybe someone as a listener is listening and then says, oh yeah, this is actually kind of interesting. I love aspects of business, but I also love aspects of design. And maybe I want to do what you do someday for a big organization like

What did you have to do to get here? Do you have to attend Oxford to get here? You know, again, it was a correspondence type thing online. But I'll tell you what happened. I'll answer the question soon. The second I got that Oxford FinTech program result, I put it on my LinkedIn. And to decide on that certificate, I actually...

I've signed up to LinkedIn Premium, so I was able to find people with Harvard Business School Online, Oxford, Cambridge, all the other Ivy League universities, INSEAD, blah, blah. And I was like, there's really almost no need for an MBA. So I had a hypothesis that if I did this, life would change. And it did. And honestly, there was an incredible call from a bank in the Middle East

that asked me if I wanted to run their global innovation hub and get this day long, would 480,000 USD be okay? And I was like, well, we can talk about it. Would that be okay for anyone? Would that be okay? $480,000 of compensation, would that be okay for anyone? Would that be okay?

And obviously I didn't make it to the interview because then they got my CV and they had good people who understood how it worked. But the power of the certificate is quite real in that sense. Now, am I anywhere close to maybe that level of prosperity in that sense? No, but it is incredibly useful to have, I think. I would encourage anyone to understand personal branding,

and you don't have to follow these gurus i think i think just just understand a little bit about what people look for and then pick one or two and go for it so to your question how i got here um design thinking innovation and i was an engineer i was a technical guy yesterday i met one of the bd guys from 12 years ago who had given me this advice i haven't met him in 10 years by the way and um

Yeah, he was one of the guys that said, because I was doing acoustics engineering. So I was designing theaters, I was designing movie sound systems, I was designing pipe network systems, highway barriers, that sort of thing, right? So anything that vibrates or makes a noise was, we'll do that. But in Malaysia, unlike, say, Scandinavian countries and Singapore, there was not really much demand for it, even then.

though we had the laws for it, they weren't enacted. Much different situation today, thankfully. And I thought that was bad then. It wasn't really that refined. And he said, well, people don't know about this, so you've got to talk about it. I mean, today I understand that was about market growth because you're educating the market and creating a market that understands it. So your job really is to get the word out as to what it is, the values of it, who you need to work with, what you can do for them, why it's necessary looking at the regulations, blah, blah.

So I then had to be a public speaker. And I did a 180. Instead of being this geeky nerd introvert that didn't speak much and really was friends with Mr. Excel and Miss Word, you know, it all changed. They made me become an emcee at corporate events. They asked me to write a paper, and then I had to present that. You know, it was something I had to do. And then at the same time, being in the room,

They had a technical center where I sort of created a lot of material around it, technically for the team to run it, for the team. So I had a lot of capacity to indulge the creative side because it keeps me quite sane, I think, you know. So I was...

I had a lot of side hustles. I was buying stuff here and selling stuff there. It was great fun. For some reason, I remember I got asked to coach startups by a grant-giving agency. I think it's because I'd done a lot of things in...

And the startups were really concept stage. So they had an idea of paper and maybe two people, four people. So they could avoid some mistakes. But if they didn't do what I did, I didn't necessarily know the answer. And then the other thing that happened was I joined a nonprofit. And the nonprofit sector, the third sector, you know, I was in such a wonderful organization. And they had the foresight to get me this amazing mentor.

who had essentially founded WWF, the World Wildlife Fund in Malaysia. And he was a third generation nonprofit in his family. And in nonprofits, that's where the mission is absolutely at the core. It's not about money. And they will discuss in their strategy

the mission much, much longer and with more focus and ability to articulate it well and with information than I've ever experienced until today in the for-profit sector. So I was in a mission-based organization and without knowing it, I think that that's really where the grounding in, say, customer centricity happened because I

we really talked about the experience of the beneficiaries of our mission, what we were in service of to them, the problems that needed to be fixed, and we didn't exist in a vacuum, right? So it wasn't about...

for us to grow this other one, this other organization had to die. We were a growth mindset. I mean, I know this phrase now, but I didn't at the time. We were a growth mindset, which meant that, hey, we can build an ecosystem and partner with everyone. There's space for everybody in this world, a growth mindset. So a lot of those venues were...

picked up, I think, there, that I picked up there, then immediately translated into being able to understand lean. It started with Lean Startup. I was with a pay TV broadcaster in Malaysia and I picked it up. But I remember that the sensation of understanding it was this warm feeling going over the skull and as well as the design thinking side. And I really think it came from there.

And then, so I've gone through a few career changes because of that, because the ability to sort of analyze numbers and say science and physics, to then talking about that science and physics that no one really understood why it was needed at the time, to then learning new things and talking about that, to then problem solving things.

other companies' problems sort of on the spot, you know, in a small way, these small concept-based startups, I think has led to a point where there's an ambition of mine is to be fairly plastic and elastic mentally, to always be curious and, you know, to never get too bogged down in what didn't work. So I think that's how I got to where I am today. And

You mentioned being a venture leader, right, Daylon? I don't know. You're actually a living, breathing venture leader yourself. And I would like to think that if there's anything we've got in common, it could be that there's a realization that, yes, you're not alone. But I think that for me, we are completely empowered.

to venture. Yes, it doesn't matter that it works for a company. It's up to me how I get that empowerment. It doesn't matter if I own it or run it myself. How do you get to that point as well? That's quite a bit. I just want to kind of ensure that our listeners are picking it up as I'm listening to it. As you explained, there are a few pivotal moments in your career. You mentioned being successful

put in the spotlight by your colleagues for better or for worse. I think it's for the better. And that to me means like we...

practicing communication skills, especially in a public setting, that's been extremely helpful. You mentioned something around your experience working for mission-driven organizations and how they are absolutely collaborative, how they think long-term, how they think about the ecosystem, and they don't think about things in a zero-sum way. Zero-sum meaning that, hey,

for someone to win, well, for me to win, someone must lose, right? So I think you said about that mindset, hey, how do we design win-win outcomes for people and how do we inspire people to want to be part of this? And that side hustle, that gig help you achieve that kind of mindset and thinking.

I think there were also like different gigs that you mentioned about consulting with startups and solving problems for startups, different types of different business problems, different skill, doing your own thing for a while as well. And all of these

led you to where you are today by being innately curious about the things that you do and doing it with passion. So that's really my takeaway from while I'm listening to you. Did I miss out something? You also got to be incredibly uncomfortable.

That's a given. Yeah. Like constantly challenging yourself, constantly trying to grow. That's putting yourself in a pretty uncomfortable spot. I'll say. Did you know I did a creative leadership course and this was a design thinking professional a lot more years from senior. He was doing this and he asked us to have this exercise. It was his proprietary method and we wrote down these things.

that we want to achieve in two years. And he did encourage us to make it quite out there. And would you believe it? Like, it's happened. All those three things that I wrote down, like, I sent him such a heartfelt message because I think they're curious. What are some of the things that you wrote down? Oh, man, you know, just, you know, as any pen-pushing jobs worth it, it's, you know, it's like pay off debts. And the more interesting one, rather, was I want to launch an online shop that does this, that, and the other.

You know, just simple. And I think it's the sense of possibility is actually key when it comes to leading a venture. Because if you have that sense of possibility, and if you have the communication skills, they're just working at it, right? Whether you're polished or not, if you can seem authentic, and if you can inspire that vision in others, they will move. The rest of it is like management, but they will move mountains and magic can happen.

So keeping a sense of possibility, I think, is also what I mean by the empowerment thing. That is the whole point, I think, of design. I think it's a very interesting way you put it. Like, design is about creating a sense of possibility, right?

Yes. Without that sense, there is no new reality. And that is what design is. It's a productive output. I'm creating something. Like me attending a meeting is not actually productive because I'm not producing anything. Yeah, exactly. Whereas design is. So that I think more than anything else, I apologize for the wishy-washy words, but I think that more than anything else would be the differentiator.

You're never going to turn around and say, nah. I mean, you do that in some ways, but you don't really want to do that. Here's a really funny story. And I haven't told many people this, but when I was 16 years old and I wanted to go to school to study design and all my friends were like, why? Why?

And I nearly convinced one of my friends to study design. And then he came to me and he said, you know, my mom and dad say that's a terrible idea. Like you can't make it as a designer in Singapore.

And I was like, all right, you follow your dad and mom's advice. He's now a pastor, I suppose. So he studied engineering and then he became a pastor. And I think he found his calling eventually. But it was so fascinating that so many people looked down on design and thought,

And I thought it was also interesting as an educator, educating the next generation of design leaders and technology leaders,

People don't realize that design is a superpower. If you do it well, it's actually a superpower, right? Like you can, you're actually creating a ton of value. It's just how do you use that design skills, right? Do you use it to create a poster for a concert or do you use it to create like an entirely new venture, which, which creates immense value?

of organization. So I don't think people realize the possibility and the potential of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that point because they might, I think people sort of understand the need for business value and a great culture and a great experience. And I think they understand the need to be able to design things. But what I would like

for us all to understand is that we don't have to walk into a conversation and say, now we're doing the diversion thinking exercise, right? So we don't have to do that. Once we can handle it in the conversation and just bring people along, that's it, right? If we're taking them along on a ritual they're not comfortable with, they'll very shy. They're very shy. They'll just, no, they're not for me. So...

It is so interesting to try and reach that level of mastery, I think, in designing a great experience. Just to be useful in that is, I think, a great calling. I just want to hop on one point. You've mentioned several times in our conversation as we're wrapping up this conversation of ours,

about bringing people along or kind of guiding that giant and very shy enterprise creature. How exactly do you do that? Let's take a previous job. You know, I, we were, so normally big companies need like, you know, they don't always have the most creative people running the show, right? So the creativity comes from outside and they then assess people

this new thing and decide whether it can integrate well with whatever they're serving their customer base, for example. So in that scenario, they're looking at something new. They were assessing it using the old way. But sit down, quickly understand what the objective is, design with one or two others what's there, and then just ask for the chance to say, lead a certain thing. Lead a certain thing, ask for it. I want to run this piece.

So everyone's there and they're now involved in the theater that I put up. And I'll never forget, like recently, it was in Singapore. I was told by my manager that, oh, this guy just asked me, what's going on? How is that happening? And he's like, no, hang on, just watch. Because I'd taken my main...

sort of champion or influencer, like to understand exactly how I was going to manage that conversation with these people and exactly what I would not say or do, because that would be wrong based on the outcome we're all trying to achieve. And he said, oh, that's very different to how we normally do it. I was like, absolutely. You know, we're trying to understand the value of this to our customers. And this is really the way we understand unbiased value, right? So I showed my, my, my, my, my,

credibility, being able to come up with it, have him understand it and then get it done. And again, it's the three things, right? It took a lot of effort and a lot of perseverance because it took a couple of weeks of really crunching down and getting the material together, educating the other guy, getting the chance to do that. And then a bit of luck. It turns out that it worked. I mean, it's always a 50-50 chance that these things are going to work, I think. So just having that trust and then

Being able to tell that story again and again and again really helps bring that big shy creature along because that shy creature has a lymphatic system. There's a gland system, there's a blood system, there's muscles and arteries, and you've got to understand everything that's driving that organization. And you've got to work with all those systems or not, depending on how you can make the call and bring them all along.

Relationships, though, I think are key because the relationship has to be one where there is trust. There is an acknowledgement of ability. And then there's a relationship where, you know what, it's worth a shot. And I know what you're asking for because you've now built up that ability to talk together and get things through.

And it also seems like you invite them to participate in whatever you're doing as well.

Yeah, sometimes a small question like, hey, I'm stuck on this bit. What do you think of this? This is the context. I'm not sure what to do here or we need to do something here. Do I go A, B or C direction? Just something small sometimes is enough, but then you keep pushing it open, right? So, hey, I now want to do this. And it's like there's some kind of linearity going on, a continuity rather. Hey, I want to now look at this because we've done that. It's going to be a bit bigger. I think it makes sense. What do you say?

Yeah, perfect. Well, there's this question. So that's really how it's done. You've got to weave that continuity thread through all the time. I think that's an excellent segue to the end of our conversation. I'm just wondering if you have any parting thoughts before we finish over here. Do you know what I learned last year that was the most valuable thing I've learned in a while? Never give up the context.

Never assume when you're dealing with that very shy, large animal that anyone remembers what happens before. Even if you're only given five minutes, let's say you're a UX designer. You know, you're only given five minutes. You put the context up front and then you deliver. Always, in any comms, in any interaction, always. Never assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The people you're talking to are just...

You never know. Yeah. Yeah. Despite their best efforts. Yeah.

It's never the case. That's so true. And I think it's also an opportunity to just make sure everyone is aligned, right? Just in case people have a very different impression of why we're here today and why are we in this meeting? Why did my boss put me in this meeting? Some people don't even know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, yes. Well, no, I think that's a bit different, actually. If someone puts you in a meeting and you don't know why you're there...

I would probably, actually, I do this. I would leave. I would just be very polite. I don't think I'm the right person here, child, because I don't know what I'm doing there. So there's no value, right? So I would actually be a bit careful there. But it's, yeah, never, never, ever.

Give up the context. So if someone won't give you the context, ask for it. Okay. In a nice way. That makes perfect sense. And with that, thank you so much, Yat, for joining us in our conversation today and sharing with us tips about how do we lead this big shy creature called an enterprise and engage with its leaders who's riding it at the very top.

and how you build your career around innovation, nearly landing a role that's worth 480,000 US dollars. No, no. I thought that was such a, such, such a interesting, uh,

lesson about lifelong learning and personal branding that you put out there. And thank you for also sharing with us how do you sell innovation? How do you sell venture design internally by involving people in very, very little ways? It almost seems like what you're doing is an art and it's a combination of different things that you acquired traditionally.

throughout your own career. So with that, thank you so much. And we'll hope to catch our listeners once again in the next Working in UX Design, where we'll be exploring with even more leaders who are trying to drive change within their organizations, how they're driving change, how they're communicating business value. So we'll catch you again in the next episode.

of our webinar and podcast thank you for joining us today i hope you enjoyed this episode if you did please let me know what you think get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com i would love to hear from you do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com and until next time i'll see you on the next episode take care and keep leaning into change