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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core.
Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year. Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design.
Good evening, everyone. And thank you for joining us, wherever you're dialing in from. My name is Dalen and I'm the founder and general manager at Curious Core. And welcome to our live stream. Welcome to our webinar. And welcome to our podcast for those of you who are listening in. So today we actually have a special guest.
Upasana has been a UX researcher working as a team of one. So we'll be talking a little bit about her experience over there. And now she's actually a UX manager in a company that you and I will probably have heard about if you're in Asia Pacific, it's called Foodpanda. So today she's actually leading a team.
in Foodpanda and Upasana knows what are the advantages and challenges that both environments bring. And she has actually been in small teams as well as big teams, as well as in different verticals as well. She has been trying to nurture and grow user research, not only as a craft, but also grow researchers in a way that is both nurturing and helps them to demonstrate the value of what they do and what they deliver within the organization.
So she actually has a background in human computer interaction and behavior design. She's also a ruthless prioritization believer, and she believes that you can have a great job as
as well as a great family and she is a mother of two so we'll also be talking about her experience juggling and having it all in this particular episode welcome upasana and welcome to our our show how are you doing today good thank you dalen i'm super excited i'm already seeing so many people join so um this is very very exciting super happy to be
be here and talk more about not just women leadership, but also like work-life balance and how to basically, you know,
figure out your career growth while having like a young family and what are some of the things that have helped me along the way and also my journey from a team of one all the way to leading sort of a, I would say, medium to big research team here at Foodpanda. And yeah, I'm just excited to chat with you and get this started. So thanks for having me.
You're more than welcome. And definitely, let's start with a little bit about your background and work experience. So you've actually worked in a lot of different companies. In fact, you have gotten a PhD in information systems. So let's kind of just start off with that and just try and understand a little bit about your experience being a researcher first at the National University of Singapore, being a PhD candidate before moving on to
to UX research. How was that experience transitioning from pure academic research to UX research?
I think everybody asks me like every time they see like the choices that I've made, everybody's super curious. Like, why did I move? How was the move? What were some of the biggest challenges? So for me, I think it all started back to when I was really young. I think as a child, I often was very interested in like problem solving in general. But anytime there were like rules, like I was to play games which had like strict start and stop states.
and then you know you could be creative within those boundaries and ultimately it was very very goal-driven like you had to reach somewhere I always outperformed in those kind of like situations whether it was playing with friends or whether it was things at school so I think that probably laid the foundation for my parents to recognize that I have this passion towards like systemic learning like very very structured form of learning and I didn't do very well in like
unstructured play or open-ended plays. So I think that kind of drew me always towards getting deeper into the academic field, trying to understand what are some of the ways that I can basically sharpen my problem-solving skill. And by the time I finished my bachelor's and master's, PhD was just that very next obvious step. And what attracted me to a PhD program was just
The fact that it's a long, hard artist journey and you have to basically stick with something for a long time. And with that, basically what you get is you become an expert on a field of your choice. And that really drew me in. I really wanted to kind of just, you know, we always talk about the T graph. So I always felt like I was missing on the depth part. So I enrolled myself and I majored in human computer interaction. So learned a lot about
the frameworks and theoretical models that go with it. But ultimately, information systems sits at the cusp of business and technology. So how to solve business problems through technological frameworks. And for me, it was the perfect marriage of something that I was interested in from a real life application perspective. I could solve real problems, but it was still very much deep rooted in like a lot of hardcore theoretical frameworks that I enjoyed learning a lot. So that was my journey into PhD. And then
Once five years had passed by, I recognized that I actually enjoyed a lot more on the outcome of my work. So I published a lot of papers in the process, traveled the world, presented my work at conferences, and only to realize that I really want to see this in the hands of consumers, like for somebody to take these learnings and convert them into either product optimizations or product improvements and really see whether that solves the problem. So I think for me, that transition from academia to
industry wasn't all roses and sunshine. I had to interview a lot and basically figure out what my skill set was and how will I take something from academia in which you have the luxury of time, you have the luxury of budget, you don't have to really think about logistical challenges, but in real world when you do research in an industry, you
There's so many things that can go wrong. So how do you basically take yourself and then fly in an industry, fast-paced setup and convince people that you really have it to deliver the impact that they're looking for? But I think it took time, but I had a lot of coaches. I had a lot of people like guiding me, helping me out. And I also worked a lot on myself in terms of what is the value that I bring? You know, what do I want to achieve next?
ultimately. And that helped to position myself very strategically in the hiring rounds. And that ended up me getting my first gig. That was the change of everything, right? Once I got that first gig, then there was no looking back. And I just kept looking for the next big problem to solve, next exciting challenge that I could take up.
So in a nutshell, that's the journey from academia to industry. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think is your secret sauce for actually making that transition happen? Because I personally, I know of people who have tried and who have failed and of
Of course, one of the common reasons that a lot of hiring managers cite is that, hey, you've only worked in academia. You're not aware of how to follow the time, how fast we move, as well as being constrained by certain things. I'm wondering how did you overcome that and how do you actually make a successful transition into UX research? Yeah, interesting. I think...
There were a couple of things that really turned the switch on for me. I think one of those was when I also realized that this is one of the main gaps that hiring managers were citing when I was trying to make that transition. I just took it upon myself to create some project portfolio based on me reaching out to certain industry partners.
So for example, I started targeting these really small startups that were trying to solve very exciting and interesting problems. And I actually offered to do a live walkthrough usability testing for their product, which meant that I will basically give them a report of 10 or 15 users that I spoke with, and they actually use the product live in front of me. And I noted down all the
behavioral issues, all the usability issues, but also where the app was significantly doing well. And I presented into this really easy to understand insights deck. And I did this like without anybody asking me, but just simply trying to see if I can create my own portfolio without having worked in an industry. And that I felt was a
game changer because I didn't walk into the interview room empty handed and not having any knowledge of how to basically do research. I showed them I could do recruitment, I could give myself a timeline, a budget, I could finish it. I could also package my data that I collected in a way that was very, very easily understood by
a simple product manager who has like two, three years of experience. It also had a little bit of design focus in terms of the insights that I was presenting. So it had a little bit for the business, a little bit for the product, a little bit for the design. Also trying to make sure that I make them
It means that I know how to use data. So for example, if I didn't have any existing data on their product, I just made certain assumptions, but that kind of already gave them the confidence that I know how to triangulate insights. So I will always go back and find more evidence and only then present my insights. So that I felt was a complete game changer. The other one was slightly more personal and that is, you know, having the conviction that it is possible.
I know a lot of skeptical people who even before they start the hiring process and if they have this academic background, they're like, oh, I don't know, how will it be? And I think first of all, you have to get yourself to a point where you believe in what you've done. And a tip that I give to a lot of academic researchers who are trying to make that transition is you can always go back to your own academic research and repackage the work that you've done, but having a slightly more industrial outer packaging.
And a couple of ways to do that is you have to basically show them your research process. You have to show them step by step what you've done, how much time did it take, and really map it to how a typical industry research project would run. You can draw parallels there and use that to showcase that you know how it is to transition from, let's say, a typical academic research process to an industry process.
research process. And of course, there's knowledge gap. They're like, oh, I don't know how this one-to-one mapping is possible or is it even possible? And my general response is, well, you will not know until you try. So if you had a problem at the beginning and you applied certain, either some theoretical concept or you collected data either through survey or a behavioral experiment or through any other means, like for example, maybe you did some experiment
modeling on it like you can be an academic researcher from various disciplines but still be able to convert it into a simpler much easier to understand a little bit dialed down version but which looks a lot more applicable to the industry and I will offer to kind of review that exercise once they have done it but
I feel like that is the first step for you to believe, first of all, that it is possible to take your academic work and then package it in a more industry-friendly manner and then use that to get leverage in your hiring interviews. So in summary, for me, it was mostly me creating those opportunities because they were not coming my way. And then second is, if you can't do that and there's no luck when you try to do that, then take your existing work and try to repackage it.
Well, thank you so much for sharing those tips. And I really like the fact that you did it without prompting because I think that is the extra hustle that you put in that not many people are willing to put in that extra effort and go that extra mile. So congratulations. I think that's probably one of the key reasons how you
made a successful transition into the industry itself. Tell me a little bit more. Your first job was at MoneySmart. That was a company in Singapore in the fintech side. You were probably the only UX researcher, I'm guessing. Yes, I was the first hire for the research team. I think they had a couple of designers before I joined. But then shortly after I joined, we got a design director and then we had like the whole
design and research org set up. It's still fairly small, but I would say there was a significant move for the company because it showed that they were investing in research as a craft, as a discipline, but also bringing more senior design leadership. That also helps research because a lot of design directors have also in the past led research as a function under their umbrella. So I think that is how it happened.
Thanks for sharing. And I think this is also quite a common occurrence where many companies, they usually don't hire big teams of researchers. They usually only hire one. And you're also expected to do quite a lot as the only research member of the team. So I'm just wondering, how did you manage? How did you prioritize? How did you ascend from...
being a senior UX researcher and in a short eight months became a research manager. The three pillars, and I am trying to make it simpler so that people who are also listening find it easier to kind of remember. So I will give you three P's and these are not surprising three P's. Everybody knows them. So it's people, processes and product.
And I focus on all these three Ps in my short eight months in order to basically establish myself and put myself in the eyes of my senior leadership that I have what it takes to kind of start building and growing the research team within the organization. So when it came to people...
I quickly realized that what great leaders in the organization were doing were that they were always trying to bring teams that were sort of working in silos, but they had very overlapping scope when it came to what part of the customer journey were they impacting. And that's a very natural bridge connection.
that exists but due to structure due to the way the teams are set up it often is a bit hard so i saw examples in the organization where successfully a leader would come in and try to get you know the two main heads to start talking and rest everybody starts talking and that really doubled down on the impact that we were having at the bottom line revenue so i tried to basically fake it till i make it so i tried to kind of take those lessons and then apply it so i tried to actually connect
product, design, analytics, all these different cross-functional teams via the red thread of, let's say, an insight. And it was a very simple project, actually. It was nothing revolutionary, nothing that would really innovate the whole product. It was something very simple and close to what we were trying to solve. But I just made sure that I had representation in every step of the way in the research process from design, from product, from analytics.
And that meant a lot more one-on-ones in the week. So I had to really pack my schedule, build those relationships, invest in those relationships so that they ultimately show up and they are invested in the research. And then the next step is, you know, people connect faster when you try to simplify things for them. So my next thing in the people pillar was to try to simplify things. And I always, always, always followed up.
I always presented my research, but didn't just let them let loose. Like I didn't cut the ties. I always followed up. Hey, what's happening with that report? Were there any insights that you've actually started thinking about and trying to improve the design or improve the product roadmap or anything of that sort? So I think following up really helped people value me as somebody who was invested in the overall growth and maturity of the organization from the UX perspective.
The next P is processes. So leaders make other people's job easier. And the best way to do that is to establish the processes, establish frameworks, find out where the team's biggest needs are, and try to document it. And after documenting comes the task of socializing it.
And after the task of socializing comes the task of honoring those processes. A lot of times what happened is in a short two, three months, once I had set the process of how we will do research at Money Smart, I found that people started coming to me with projects and then, you know, pitching them to me. Oh, can we do it in a more scrappy manner? Which meant, can we bypass certain steps or, you know, just get internal employees to do this? Or we find people on the road to do it.
And it's all fine. There's a time and space for doing scrappy research. But because I had established that process with a lot of confidence and with a lot of investment from the senior leadership, I honored it and I stuck to the process. And I said, we can do less work, but we will do quality work.
So I think once you start showing these qualities, you also naturally become a referent in the team because you have these documents, these frameworks documented by you and people will come to those as a reference. And slowly, I think establishing yourself as a leader is a very natural extension when you've taken the effort to document this important information that's relevant for the team. And the third piece, product. I think for a lot of team of one, they continue to work
work with what is available on the surface. And they don't really rely on, let's say, you know, your own instinct as a user or your own creativity to go beyond the surface. So things like I try to shuffle up how I do requirement gathering, for example, as a first step in any research project, rather than just having my PM tell me things that they want to find out or things that they have in their mind. I actually went in and approached it from a more stakeholder interview perspective.
So I told my PM, hey, you know, I have these questions I'm going to ask you and I will need answers. And I would often share those questions in advance if they need to kind of do their homework and prepare some of these answers. So things like what problem are we solving? Who are the users we're going to target? Which markets? Which segment? What kind of decisions do you want to take with this research? How will you adopt these insights? What are the success metrics? And I feel like often because you're a team of one, you don't want to get into this
perspective of, oh, research takes too long or they ask too many things. I just need you to test this design. But then really taking your job seriously and trying different things to do a more rigorous job as your first few deliverables. And for example, doing things like going beyond the surface and trying to really figure out what is behind the questions that the PM is asking.
And the real need behind all of those can help you find out opportunities within product that may not be easily visible to somebody. So I think those are some of the things that when I double down on my efforts and all these three pillars, it very quickly escalated into everybody that she's a referent and everybody came to me for any research needs that they have, anything related to user, they knew who the person is. And once that connection is established, everything else just kind of spirals from it.
Such wonderful sharing. Who else thinks this is like a masterclass of getting promoted, right? I mean, if you apply all these three things and you work in tech, maybe replace product with like the business or something, you instantly get promoted within one year. So I'm taking notes over there. And what really stood out for me is how proactive you are in actually doing these things. It's not like you got told to do any of it.
You actually just went to do it and you went to deliver above and beyond expectations and showed really high quality work. And you went to take the lead to bring people together to be the bridge between teams. And all of these things demonstrates leadership. I think
they definitely made the right decision in promoting you fast. If not, I'm sure some other company would have come knocking on your door. And I'm wondering if that was the case where you went to DBS next, that you got headhunted or something.
Yeah, I mean, I have to be honest. They reached out and I think they were in this, I mean, of course, the fintech was a natural bridge between the two roles. But I think I was also slowly starting to realize that I wanted something slightly more bigger, like slightly more at scale. I also wanted to experience what it would be to
work with a bigger team and not just the same you know PM how I wanted to experience different leadership styles because I was early on in my career right I wanted to expose myself to different leadership styles different kind of problems and DBS was great and it taught me a lot it was a completely different beast compared to Money Smart it was a good decision at the time that I was in my career I think I needed that I was definitely headhunted and I don't regret it it was good
Yeah, thank you for sharing. And yeah, I heard DBS is one of the biggest design teams of any bank here in Singapore, right? They hire a ton of designers and I'm sure you wouldn't be the only researcher there back then. How is it different working in a larger company versus like a startup?
in the research context? Yeah, I think first of all, when I was in Money Smart, so I started as a team of one. By the time I left, the team had grown to, I think, three people. I had already started getting exposed to what a more embedded researcher model would work in an organization. But once I went to DBS, it was just at another scale because we had these three different pillars in the company, the personal banking, corporate banking, and then what we used to call enterprise, which was mostly internal research.
And we had researchers dedicated to each of these verticals and products. And sometimes multiple researchers dedicated to these product lines. So first of all, you're not working alone. You're always in a team of other UX researchers at various leadership journeys, like some of them more junior researchers.
Some of them with like three or four years of experience and some of them a lot more senior. So there's like a nice diversity in terms of seniority within the UXR team, which I was not exposed to earlier, right? So that was a refreshing change.
I think what it also meant working in a bigger organization was that we were working on a lot of strategic research other than just product or business research. So let's say in a startup, because it's very, very fast paced, things are changing and time to market is a big variable when it comes to startups. Not saying that it's not important for bigger organizations, but bigger organizations have a lot more appetite in terms of, let's say, things not working out or things failing and then, you know, just recovering and trying something else.
So I think at DBS, we had a lot more experimentation culture, you know, try things. And we also invested in things like career framework, trying to figure out who our users are from a more segmentation perspective, what solutions work for
which users best. So more of these like cross product line kind of research projects that were not just focused on one particular pillar. So I think that's a very key distinction between what the team focuses on when it's a smaller startup versus a bigger team.
Researchers' growth is a big topic within bigger teams. So, you know, we had ceremonies and processes to figure out, like, what are the researchers' best interests at? Where do they want to grow? And then the leadership would try to create opportunities to help you practice. For example, you're a qualitative researcher, but recently you've gotten interest in more quantitative side or more mixed methods.
then we had the luxury to create opportunities within the work that we had to practice some of these newer skills, acquire these new skills, go for trainings, participate in conferences and really upskill ourselves because it's such a big team. We would balance everything.
each other's out and overall everybody got a chance to grow in the directions that they felt most fulfilled. So that I would say is the biggest difference in my experience of working in startups and bigger teams. Well, thank you for sharing that. And it's so great to hear that because we actually have some of our alumnus working in DBS Bank currently. So it's really great to hear that they're also experiencing growth within their careers. Let's come to the main topic for this particular
particular episode, which is women leadership in tech. What are some of your general thoughts? Because from what I observe, there aren't many women leaders in tech, right? They are actually a minority as compared to maybe other professions like marketing, for example. In terms of representation, that's somewhat
underrepresented why do you think that's the case and as a woman leader in tech right now what would you advocate for to help more women to become leaders in their respective companies yeah i think let me be let me be honest and put it in the most simple way that i understood it i feel like for a lot of women leadership it has to do with how the career starts so you spend your first three to five years honing your skill set as a researcher you know trying to become a
more efficient researcher trying to figure out your own problem solving framework and basically just going through the route of like delivering projects delivering presentations and really getting comfortable with the idea of how the work actually helps product development in general so I'm specifically talking about let's say UX researchers working in tech slash product I
I think the next, let's say, three to five years, you will slowly start to realize, oh, whether I'm happy being an individual contributor and I want to become, let's say, a principal researcher in the future, or do I want to foray into management? And I think it's also quite evident that for a lot of us that might be happening, let's say, in the late 20s, early 30s. And that's also when...
I don't want to generalize. I think there's room for all kinds of situations these days. But I'm just saying like largely, let's say you settle down or you have kids or you don't have kids. But generally, mid-30s is when, you know, life starts to get a little bit more busier than it was in 20s. It's not all about
work, you have your health and your different things become priority. And that is when exactly I kind of rejoined the workforce after motherhood. And I felt like the first year was so difficult. I could have easily hung the towel like so many times. There were moments when I was like crying in the bathroom and I was like, what is this? I feel like I was just out for a year. And so things have changed so much. So it can be very, very intimidating and difficult to actually go back and
and regain your momentum, let's say, before you take a break or you take a pause from work. So I feel like those are one of the reasons that can impact a lot of us. The other could simply be this misalignment between how fast or how the company sees leadership and what you bring to the table.
And I think for a lot of us, because we don't necessarily invest the time to nurture a natural leader that is in women, that we find ourselves not super convinced whether, you know, we're up for a job. And there's a lot of biases that I've also seen in women, which is mostly like self-inflicted biases that kind of limits our own potential to be in these leadership positions. So, for example, one of the key skills that I have seen in leaders is that they do a lot of coaching and mentoring.
And I feel like for a lot of us, we are in, like, especially women, we are just natural hustlers and natural problem solvers that we don't necessarily develop those skills, what it is to coach and mentor other people.
And that's, I think, one of the ways that you can fine tune your potential to be a leader. So I will say like for women in general, they should definitely invest time in slowly trying to find out what are some of those gaps that they may have in the future as they try to grow as a leader and try to participate or take workshops or trainings and really upskill themselves so
when the time comes and when the opportunity presents, you feel confident that, yes, I'm up for the job. So I think it's a lot of like, in summary, like self-inflicting biases. Maybe sometimes the organizational culture is such that you don't feel super supported or you don't feel confident that, you know, you can even apply for the role. And also, I feel like I have seen a lot of strong women leaders like pushing and hyping up other women leaders who are in their journey to become entrepreneurs.
you know, future leaders, but not so many great examples. Like in my own career of like, I would say 10 years, I've seen probably two or three great women leaders who are really passionate about pushing other women and really giving them that air beneath their wings that, you know, you can do this and,
You've got us. And I feel like all organizations should focus on developing this kind of a culture where women who are trying to run teams and, you know, be in these leadership positions feel adequately supported in whatever way that they need.
I think it would look different for different people. So I don't want to generalize. So yeah, I think the organization needs to do their part and then we need to do our part, make sure that we upskill ourselves from time to time, make sure that we have our own tribe and community of other strong women leader who we can like, you know, fall back on advice for only when these things come together, can we nurture and have more women leaders. And we know women leaders are awesome. Like I think,
They're perfect for handling leadership positions with empathy and really growing the team in a more nurturing manner where everybody feels fulfilled. So I think we're naturally in that position to do that. So it's unfortunate that we don't have a lot of them. But I think the problem is on both ends for the reasons that I stated earlier.
Thank you for giving it a summary based on your own personal experiences. And I think there are a few important points that I want to go a little bit deeper. And I would generally agree with you upskilling is definitely important. And how much you invest in yourself is also a determinant of how fast you grow in your career, right? That's always something I believe in. And in past, I've always consistently invested 10% of my own income into learning.
when the company doesn't do that for me. I want to double down a little bit talking about motherhood, talking about you taking a maternity break and coming back from that. Just share with us a little bit. You have two kids. I remember it. Did I remember it correctly while we were talking? Yeah. So you have two kids and you
It meant that you took maternity break twice in your career. And each maternity break in Singapore is about four months. So how did you kind of get back into that momentum? Because I know it can be quite difficult as my wife is personally going through that process right now. So going back to work and leaving a kid at home and all of those things. So how did you get back into the jive of things after being away for so long?
My favorite topic at last. But actually, I'm a mom of twins. So I took maternity break once and that was actually around six months long. So it was four months, of course, sponsored by the company, but I actually took additional two months because I was just not ready and not in a position to actually step away from
from kids and since they were twins, they were born slightly premature and they needed a little bit extra time to kind of reach a point where I felt comfortable to leave them for a couple of hours with like other caretakers. Yeah, I mean, managing work and home with little kids is not easy. I also feel like I'm in this constant negotiation
to prioritize whether to fill my own cup before I start pouring it out because we all know we can't pour from an empty cup so I didn't have this balance and this wisdom at the start when I was coming back from maternity I was all sorts of tired exhausted just not knowing you know how to basically navigate this coming back to the workforce strategy but I managed it I
I think my passion, my inner motivation to continue solving problems, to build on what I had already kind of achieved really pushed me. And I started that process and Foodpanda came along. And I think it was thanks to some, again, amazing women leadership who sort of gave me the confidence that it is possible and I could come back and I could do amazing things and achieve what I want to achieve in the next three to five years, the vision that I had for myself.
But then again, once I started, I was like all sorts of excited. Oh my God, you know, it happened. And now I'm back in workforce and, you know, I'm part of this amazing team and they have an amazing culture, which totally resonated with who I am as a person.
But slowly I realized that, you know, my kids were small and I was bringing a lot of stress from work. And these were like office conversations that would linger on in my mind and, you know, eat into my weekend. And I would walk into the new work week just absolutely dreading of what lies ahead. It was a bad cycle.
And I think it was just me trying to grasp everything. It was a new role, trying to understand organizational structure. What are the dynamics? You know, which teams are working on what problems? And it can be a lot to kind of absorb and download, especially when you're still kind of getting over everything that comes with birth and the first one year of motherhood.
But then I think I anchored it all back to a few things. One was trying to take a moment and find my own values as a person, but also the team that I was working with. So, you know, I inherited a small team of researchers and
And I managed to figure out and make peace that there is a certain piece at which I learned best. So I told myself not to come into the job and giving myself some unrealistic timeline that in two weeks, I'm going to understand everything that there is to, you know, and I need to act fast because I want to justify that situation.
The decision that they have taken is the right one. I went back to my own value system and I told myself first and convinced myself that I'm going to take it at a pace that I feel most comfortable with and I feel like that I will be able to absorb and learn the best. And then I shared that with my team. And that automatically created this nice tone that I had set that, you know, me as a research manager coming in, I will always try to focus, number one, on empathy.
And number two, on different learning styles and different learning bases. And for example, this nice exercise that I did in the first few weeks was like, you know, what behaviors do we reward in the team and what behaviors do we punish in the team? And that gave me a nice opportunity to kind of sink in with the team, what our culture is going to be as we progress.
try to learn from each other as we try to do research. And I highly encourage anybody kind of coming back from maternity break and getting into a team. Don't be in this rush to understand everything and act and deliver like impactful projects in the first 90 days. I know a lot of women would put that sort of pressure on them because there's this feeling of I need to prove myself, but you don't have to prove anything to anybody, you know.
With due time and with the right kind of support, you will find a space where you will feel comfortable and you will feel motivated and you'll be looking forward to creating that. So that would be first. Second would be I also quickly realized that I have to find and communicate my non-negotiables.
So for example, when is the professional deadline? Like 6.30 p.m. is my cutoff. I'm not available after 6.30 p.m. And I will contradict myself just now and say sometimes these calls stretch till 7 p.m. But I tell myself, okay, twice a month is okay. That's the upper limit I've given myself.
But I also remind myself that my kids are not going to be this young again. I'm not going to be this age again and have the energy to play with them and engage with them. So I think thinking slightly further ahead really helps me realize that this is my life and I need to live my life now. And work is part of life. It's not my entire life. So switching off those notifications at 6.30, you know, sometimes I was tempted to open the laptop once they went to sleep. So I would actually hide my laptop.
basically ask my partner to make sure that I don't open my laptop because if I'm in front of my laptop, one hour will pass away and I will not even realize it. So I think finding my non-negotiables and sticking to those was the next thing that actually helped me have a more successful transition so I can balance both in the initial months. The other one was more professional non-negotiables. So for example, I realized that as I entered the workforce, I was trying to make everybody happy. I was
I was trying to see, let's say, what my chief experience officer, and I'm giving you hypothetical titles and hypothetical examples just so that, you know, people understand this and it's slightly exaggerated. So,
So let's say my chief experience officer says that, oh, you know, we have this is this project happening and we need to really go deep into this project on ABC direction. And then I talked to my, let's say, design director and they gave me another direction. And I spent so much time wrecking my brain, trying to reconcile all these different directions that I was exhausted by the end of the day and not really making any concrete progress. And that started reflecting on, let's say, you know, what do we actually deliver in, let's say, a quarter or six months, right?
So let's say the scope kept getting changed and, you know, scope creep happens all the time. But, you know, it was just too much. And then I had to take a reality check and tell myself I cannot please everybody. I have to believe in my intuition as a leader. These are the projects that the team has collectively, let's say, committed to that we're going to deliver and we have to stick to it.
And I think that gave me an important lesson that while we are in the business of building amazing products and services, we are also in the business of people. And we have to approach everything with empathy. And that is key for me. And which goes back to my values that I mentioned earlier. So it's all sort of connected. So I think trying to not...
Finding that perfect middle ground where everybody feels heard and everybody's thoughts have been incorporated. It's okay if people get pissed off in the process. If your rationale is right and you are transparent and open in communicating why you took certain decision or why certain pivots were taken, more or less people will come around, maybe not immediately, but then let's say, you know, in a few weeks. So I think not to get stuck in this rut of, oh, I'm new and I need to make sure that everybody understands
you know, with the way I'm working. I think it's fine. And then finally, I think asking for help. I think for a lot of us, because we naturally take care of home, you know, at work and we have parents and there's just so many things that we get stretched in. We forget that we can always ask for help.
And I feel like especially in tech, we are almost like slaves to sprints and OKRs and quarterly planning to a point that we can sometimes deliver not the most pleasureful experiences to our users just because we wanted to hit a deadline.
So deadlines in my experience, what I found is deadlines are often arbitrary and flexible. If you have good reasons, for example, capacity, you need more time to do a thorough job on the proposal. These are all valid reasons that you should use to get yourself the time that you need so you can stretch yourself a little bit and not get like super caught up and end up like exhausted and not making any progress.
So when you find yourself, stop, pause, breathe, ask for help. And this could be help from the team. It could also be help outside work. So outside work, let's say I have a tribe of strong women leaders who are in similar fields, similar life stages, you know, also similar life stages to me. And we truly lift each other up. We hype each other up all the time and we make time to connect outside of kids and work to again fill our own cup before we start pouring out.
So in summary, it hasn't been, it was not very easy. The first year was very, very difficult, but finding my values, finding my non-negotiables, both personal and professional, and also being okay with asking for help really helped make that transition a lot smoother.
I'm aware this has been quite a long sharing for our listeners and our viewers right here, and I'm going to attempt to really pick up some of the things that I feel are really, really special from Upasana's sharing. And I think the first thing I picked up was energy and rhythm management, right? And it's about honoring that internal rhythm and pace and going into that
that rhythm again of working from being a caregiver to a professional leader, right, in your case, and honoring your energy and how much energy that you can actually share and give to others. So I think that's really great because a lot of women leaders I know and women professionals I know
are very intuitive by nature and they're quite well connected to their bodies. And I think it's important to remember that, that, that is actually a, a superpower for women in general. And I think the other superpower for women is empathy. And I'm so glad you brought that up because the fact that in your field of work, being an empathic kind of person is actually how you become a strong researcher or a strong designer.
So I think the fact that you're using that and to your advantage, that's also really good. And for everyone who is listening or seeing this right now, I encourage you to really think about what are your superpowers? Is it empathy? Is it intuition? And just using that in your work itself. And I think there was this...
internal conversation that you mentioned about a little bit of guilt, I sense a little bit about shame that I sense a little bit about being vulnerable, asking for help that you mentioned. And I think so, well, I believe I read some research that even when Google was asking with women leaders wanted to be promoted within the company. So many of them feel like
a little shy of saying they want to be promoted versus their male peers who are a little bit more outspoken. Even though they don't feel quite ready, they say they want to be promoted. So I think that's also probably one of the reasons that hold back a lot of great,
women working professionals who actually deserve to get promoted, but maybe because of that internal conversation or a little bit of guilt, shame, or not feeling like they're good enough. They're not actually going out there. And it's great that you have this strategy of having a strong support network just to remind you
of what's possible. And just to remind you that, hey, you're actually really good at what you do. You deserve that opportunity. So I think that's what I'm sensing from this conversation. Any afterthoughts? Yeah, I mean, this actually reminds me of this conversation I was having with my mentor. So I was having this transition of team structure and everything. And I was trying to reconcile in my mind how I'm going to, again, find that middle ground that everybody's happy with the changes that we're making.
to the team and she really brought up this point and it really hit home for me and she said something like if you were a man you would not even be thinking about this at this moment you know trying to make sure you're not stepping on anyone's foot and you know you're keeping everybody happy
I mean, difficult decisions are difficult for a reason. You cannot keep everybody happy at all times. And I think it's part of just being a woman trying to keep peace and managing everything that naturally brings into this. I want to keep balance and I don't want anything to go out of
balance but hey things will go out of balance it's it's a natural course of you growing and and everybody growing with you so yeah you you hit it you hit it home run when you said like it there's a little bit of guilt there's a little bit of shame but i mean that's where that internal dialogue really helps and yes great women around you also help so we should ask for help anytime that we get an opportunity and not really feel um you know that that guilt around it
So we have a little bit of time left and there's this other thing I want to double down on, which is about coaching and mentoring. And so far from what I'm hearing,
through our conversation is that you have mentors who are supporting you and you're a mentor yourself and you're a coach to your team. So I'm really curious how important is having a mentor or how important is coaching as a skill as something that helps establish yourself as leadership material in an organization?
Yeah, for me, I think coaching and mentoring has been the number one factor that helped me recognize some of the gaps that I had to fill in before I present myself as a leader. But in the process, I recognize something that I truly, truly enjoy is when I can help someone get closer to where they want to be and, you know, be part of someone's journey.
I think there's nothing more satisfying, there's nothing more rewarding than to help someone in their journey. So I think for me, in an organizational context, how it happened was that almost every organization that I've worked in, I felt like there's this pool of potential leaders that are looked upon as, let's say, you know, future managers or future leaders of the team.
But what is lacking for some companies is a more structured way of how to get them from this potential leadership pool to actually leaders of tomorrow. And I felt like if that problem was not being solved, then maybe I can solve that problem. So, you know, something like trying to see if there's an opportunity to organize coaching session, something very small.
And all you need is basically sponsorship of one leader, senior leader in your company that can, you know, help kind of give you that green signal or that push and say like, hey, try it out and let me know. And I'll attend, let's say, the first two sessions. And that gets people to know that, OK, this is something that is being bagged. And, you know, the company is really trying to nurture these potential leaders for tomorrow.
And in the process, I realized my own biases that I had when it came to, let's say, helping people or coaching and mentoring them. I thought I had a completely different definition of coaching before I started coaching. I thought it's about solving other people's problem or, you know, things like that. But coaching is so much more than that. Right. So coaching is in three terms is about asking the right questions.
actively listening and helping people find their own answers. And this was the hardest for me because we are trained to solve problems, but people learn better when they solve their own problems at their pace, at the learning style that they're comfortable with. So I feel like coaching and mentoring helped me quickly establish myself as a referent, but also I really grew through the process of coaching and mentoring others and I became a better coach. And now I coach like
twice a week, sometimes thrice a week outside of work hours. And it's something that still fulfills me, still pushes me to be better. And it's an integral part of me giving back to the community and trying to give back because there were so many people that I attribute
my career growth too. So it's only fair that I give back. So I would say like, if anybody's interested in coaching and mentoring, I absolutely encourage you to do that if you want to get into leadership positions, because it helps you in skills like negotiation, conflict management, stakeholder management, team culture,
all these are things that you will have to face once you become a leader or you start to manage teams. So why not invest the time to gain those skills for the future? So highly, highly encourage people to put in the work and invest in coaching and mentoring.
So I believe you actually did it as a practice and you learned by doing it. But I'm also wondering whether you actually formally put yourself in any program to learn how to mentor or to learn how to coach by any chance. Yeah, unfortunately, as I was starting to build my own coaching and mentoring skill set, I couldn't come across any structured program. I know now there are some great coaching programs that help you develop these skills. But for me, it was
learning on the go like I've learned a lot of other things but I would say if you can invest into a more structured course or a plan absolutely I think it's the best investment that you can do in your own career growth so if you don't have the luxury to kind of take several years to hone and practice these skills then investing and giving yourself this more structured approach is always I think recommended.
Yeah, I definitely agree that coaching is a great skill. And let's talk about mentoring, which is something slightly different. You mentioned when you were contemplating a certain decision, you actually approached your mentor. So I'm curious how important your mentor or your mentors in the past play a role in helping you rise and ascend in the corporate ladder.
Yeah, I would say like for me a mentor is someone who stays with you at least for a few years because what they often tell you is let's say they try to connect the dots for you and I think it was Steve Jobs who said that you can only connect the dots backwards. So I think sometimes as you're busy kind of advancing in your career and trying different things you lose touch with how far you've come or how you used to do things differently and now how you do them. So I think having someone invested in your growth for at least an extended period of time is
gives you that reality check and gives you that ability to go back and reflect with somebody on how the growth has been, what have been some of the peak moments, what are the things that haven't worked and have really impacted you. So I definitely have like one or two mentors who followed my career since the beginning and I often go back to them to kind of sense check and use them as my sounding board where there is like no judgment, no fear. It's a very safe space and I know they're always there
like supportive. So I think having that mutual trust built with a mentor and having to take that as you grow is something which is priceless. So if you can find someone who really believes in you and is like naturally your hype man or woman, then keep them close, keep them posted, let them know on your fears, on the challenges that you're having, and they can really help you connect things through the years. And that has been really, really beneficial.
I think that's a great quote by one of the actors and he said like, if you ever get so lucky that you get to the top, it's your responsibility to send the lift back down.
to the next person so that person can also help get to the top as well. So I think mentors or people in very high levels of professional positions do have the responsibility to help the next generation to grow and to become leaders in their own right.
And I was wondering whether you have any tips about looking for mentors, you know, like how would you seek out looking for one? Because I'm sure there are a lot of people out there and not everyone is going to be kind, generous and nurturing. So I'm just wondering, how do you pick your mentors or how do you kind of like even pluck up the courage to approach someone who seems...
incredibly busy with their time. Yeah, I wish there was like a scientific framework to like how to find and pick the best mentor coach for you. Sadly, that doesn't exist. I would say for me, just it's a very natural and organic thing. But I think it's also stems from this fact of how open you are to feedback. So I feel like
at the core of you finding somebody to mentor or coach is whether you are in tune with yourself enough that there might be things that you're not recognizing and having an external pair of eyes can really shine spotlight on some of the things that you're doing. And I feel like
Finding someone early on in my career at work was the easiest way that I found a mentor. And then now they have stayed with me for a couple of years now. We just reconnected where we were not connected during my pregnancy. And when I when I was on maternity leave,
But then we recently connected back and I slowly took the time to arrange like a recurring bi-weekly. And then within two, three months, they now have caught up on everything that happened right before I went for maternity and also some of the initial months back. So now they have that
knowledge to connect it back to what they previously knew. So I think it's also on you how frequently, how much, and in what format do you best want feedback on yourself. And that will determine how actively you search for a mentor. But then once you find it, that's not the end of the job, right? You have to keep them filled in, share with them nuances and
You have to keep them in loop. Otherwise, there's not really much they can do other than give you, let's say, generic advice. So for me, the reason why mentorship for me is super critical is because they...
really know the details. And I take the time to update them on those details and try to like find time in their busy schedule. And yes, these are busy people. But I feel like one thing that I think this is my mentor telling me is that I love the fact that if something works, you always come back and tell me that, hey, you know, I tried that thing. And this is how it worked. So closing that loop back on your mentor keeps them invested, keeps them pushing you forward, right? So I think those are the two things that I would say like,
how open you are to feedback and clearly establishing from an expectation standpoint from your mentor, how frequently do you need feedback and what format do you need feedback and how you close the loop back with them to give them that feeling of, oh, you know, this is really helping them. So I need to kind of, um,
stay in touch and stay close is probably the best way. But again, finding and spotting a mentor, I feel like for me, what worked best, and this is something I've also seen work best for other people is to find somebody at work who is really invested in
in you, likes you, first of all. So it's a little bit like speed dating in the beginning, like talk to as many people as you can, tell them about your aspirations. And if you find someone who's like interested, keep building on it, keep investing. And ultimately, there'll be a switch that goes off and you'll know, oh, this is the person that I want to bounce off key milestones in my career. And I think one part that I missed touching upon is readers should also be aspirational in some ways to you. Either they speak to you in how,
you know, you are as a person or maybe they speak to in terms of how you see yourself professionally grow and they sort of become like this mirror that you want to embody a lot of values and a lot of leadership qualities from. So that's also, I think, maybe a good way. Like if you see somebody and you say like, oh, I think this is a leader that resonates with my beliefs and my values and who I see myself becoming, don't be afraid to reach out, invest,
and then the rewards should follow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I definitely believe in looking for mentors and actually leaning on mentors to grow. And personally, I've benefited from mentors of the past as well. I have some questions. I was just wondering, for example, the latest question from Emily saying, in my experience, sadly, some working culture don't promote mentoring or coaching.
What is the next best option then if I can't find a mentor at work? So I think the first half of the question is the company not having the culture to promote coaching or mentoring. What is the next best option if we can't seem to have a coach or mentor? I feel like if you can't really at work find a coach or a mentor, what probably is the next best option is to actually find people who are in a similar boat as you.
So can try to connect with, let's say, other employees who are also having this sort of a feeling that they need somebody as a coach or a mentor and they don't have. And between all of you, and this is something that I saw work very well in one of the jobs that I was at, is this group of seven, eight people who are like, I would say, mid-managers. So they were like maybe two or three years into being a manager and really trying to kind of
become a leader they actually took a poll like what are the things that we would like to learn from a mentor or a coach and some of the common suspects were like stakeholder management how to grow team culture conflict management things like that and they actually then assigned one person every week to actually prepare a little bit on the topic and do like a sort of a mini workshop
And what that did was the seven, eight people who basically were in the need for some senior leadership to come in and teach them all these things become, became each other's teacher. And it actually, they were the first cohort that graduated from this program and the company actually made it formal. And there were several other people who joined this and there were so many more topics, something as simple as how to say no, you know, very, very like sometimes almost like personal thing, personal topics like work-life balance, for example,
And it just meant that someone was facilitating and someone took the effort to create, let's say, some material. And then it was mostly the group's discussion that enhanced everyone's knowledge. And slowly they had touched upon, let's say, 20 or 25 such topics in a single year. And that kind of fulfilled some of that need of what you would eventually want to learn from a coach or mentor. So if you're not getting that opportunity, be creative.
and, you know, either find other people who are in a similar boat and do your own coaching and, you know, mentorship group and meet once a week and discuss things that matter to you as a group. That's the thing I can think of. I think that's such an excellent idea. And it is a recurring theme that I'm hearing from you, which is find your support network. And I see that as a support network as well.
So we're going to ask the last question, and I'm going to combine two questions into one because they're somewhat on the opposite ends. One of the questions is, you know, how can companies create more inclusive cultures and environment that encourage and support women? Whereas the flip side of that question, the other question is that if I'm facing gender bias in my workplace as a woman, what can I do about it?
I think just answering from both perspective, if you can. First of all, congratulations if you're able to recognize gender bias. I feel like for a lot of people, maybe they don't even recognize that they're facing gender bias. So if you're able to recognize that you have gender bias, I would say, first of all, try not to be impulsive to do something about it right immediately. Because I feel like a lot of the times when
someone does this, they might just be doing it out of ignorance or, you know, someone doesn't even realize that they are making a comment or they are contributing to a situation which is creating this gender bias. I would say always like approach it from a place of, uh,
maybe this person just doesn't know it. And maybe I can have a one-on-one and let them know that, hey, you know, that comment that you made earlier was derogatory or disrespectful or be honest with whatever your emotion was and let them know how that is affecting you and how that is not something that, you know, you want to encourage and see where it goes. So I would say having one-on-one for me, I always say this, I don't like to sit and shit because it stinks. So I always address it, but I address it
after I have given it a little bit of time and then you know I'm also a little bit more calmer and I approach it with a lot more like diplomatic style but still being very very direct I would say recognizing it and then speaking up about it is the only way that you we can help all address gender bias because if we don't address it people will not know whether it's out of ignorance or whether it's deliberate being confident to confront and
And in a very direct manner, be able to, with details, specific details of what was said and how does this impact. And not getting really into this personal space of you said it or, you know, it's not the person, but it's the situation and what was said and how it actually impacts is a much better way to kind of share the repercussions of, let's say, a gender bias comment that was made, let's say, in a casual setting or in a meeting.
So that is my answer of how you would face gender bias. And it happens. It happens to me. It happens to a lot of women. I handle it with a lot of grace, but then I always let it go in the moment, but I always address it with the person more one-on-one. My style is not to just put it up in the middle of a meeting, but I make a mental note. I calm down, I gather my thoughts, and then I address it immediately one-on-one with the person. And a lot of times I feel like it's,
for me at least 50 to 70 percent is oh I didn't mean this but I actually meant to say this and whether they are being honest or they're just trying to kind of paraphrase what they said just to make it sound a little bit less gender biased I don't know but I can see that they recognize it immediately something that was said that has an impact and I think it's a lot about just being open and honest and sharing about it and bringing it up in more conversations.
Yeah, thanks for answering that in depth, how to handle that situation if you're someone who's facing it. Now that you are a leader, how do you create an environment or a culture that support other women, right? And be more inclusive in this case? For me, I think it all starts with, yeah, like walking the talk. So for example, now that I'm a leader, I try to do things that I felt
were a little bit harder to for me in terms of getting certain things lifted off the ground so like for the for the longest time I have been advocate for having different spaces in the office that kind of helps women who are let's say coming in after maternity or having a physical challenge physical disability and not having appropriate places in the office to support them and
like basically championing anything that currently the organization doesn't align with in terms of what we need to support women with. And something as very simple as like, I know a lot of new mothers who came back and a lot of them are pumping because they're away from the babies, but they need to pump milk and make sure that they have enough to kind of go back and feed their kids. And I found that a lot of them just were so, it was so difficult for them to sanitize and wash. And pumping is a whole business, you know, it comes with,
a lot of contraptions that need to be washed and sanitized. And in our pantries, we simply didn't have any space for mothers to do that. And I found her struggling week after week until I think someone raised it. And then I chipped in and I really kind of
I made a big hue and cry about it. And then we said, what is this? Like this mother needs to do the things that it needs to feed her baby. And why are we creating it super difficult? So then we established a pumping room. And then, you know, we found out what were the typical schedules when she needs to go in. So people were not allowed to use that room at that time. So she could just pump and pee.
So I think something as simple as that is to recognize as women what are our challenges, trying to run polls, try to run workshops and trying to find out where women need more support, whether it's simple things like what I said or whether it's coaching and mentoring that they need help with or maybe they need a tribe to connect to. They need their own network that they can fall back on and fill their own cup
and go out and have fun and feel like for, you know, for new moms, a lot of thing is like they feel so alienated to the real world. Like just going out and having a drink can seem so difficult for a new mom. So something as simple as connecting them to other women who are in similar life stages. So I think just creating spaces that allow women to exchange ideas freely and openly and express where they are struggling with is a great place that a company can invest in.
to create a more inclusive culture. Professionally, I feel like anytime I spot somebody in my team who has this potential to be a great women leader, I try to give them a lot of high visibility, high impact projects. And the reason is if they have expressed interest to me, I don't want them to just work on things that they are comfortable with. I try to give them stretch goals, create opportunities that helps them to
practice, presentation in large audiences, people with super senior positions in the company are listening to your research and reaching out to you. And that way I feel like I'm also supporting them to kind of like fast track into their own leadership career. So encouraging them and
allowing them to stretch and do more than what they feel they're capable of is also, I think, a way that I recognize, you know, potential as women leaders in my team and constantly trying to professionally push them. So I would say like those are the two things that we can do to create more inclusive culture for women.
Excellent answers. And I think that's just so much nuggets of gold and wisdom in this conversation. I would really like to thank you for this conversation, Upasana. And I wonder if you have any parting thoughts before we close the session.
Yeah, I think one thing that I wanted, I thought we'll touch up naturally on, but we didn't is around for especially for UX researchers, if you're if you're dialing in, and if you're listening in, especially because I'm from that field is like thinking about your portfolio in the long run, in preparation to let's say, become a leader of the future.
I think at the start of your career, you try to do like a lot of evaluative work, trying to really understand what the product teams or the tech teams are trying to do and like helping them unblock in their more mid to short term needs is a great way to kind of learn the skills and practice it. But you have to ultimately balance your portfolio with a lot of discovery foundational blue sky work.
Because I think while evaluative research is still our bread and butter, and it's easier to connect it to business impact, but practicing the skill of what team wants and what the team needs and understanding these differences and trying to create projects and add them to your portfolio that help teams go beyond what was initially asked for will really establish yourself as someone who can think further and think more in
the innovation space and go beyond the surface. So I think as you're building your portfolio to become a leader, try to have this nice balance of evaluative work, but also a lot of discovery pieces that help the teams innovate existing solutions and build experiences that really is on nobody's radar right now. So those would be my parting thoughts for people who are specifically trying to be leaders in the UX research space.
Yeah, what a great episode and a delight, especially if you're a UX researcher, you get to hear all this wisdom from rising and ascending as a UX researcher, as well as being a women leader in tech. For those of you who are not in UX research or design, I hope this session has been beneficial and you picked up something on how to actually get back into your careers and actually really thrive and strike a balance as you're growing your careers and and
and also growing as a woman whether it's motherhood or whether it's starting a family or getting married and all these things so thank you so much for sharing upasana and thank you so much for for your questions uh and audience and for now um thank you upasana we'll end the session and uh i really really love how user-centric you are you're literally
living and breathing it like your advice on like okay let's not just fix ux problems in the business but also let let's find out how to make our colleagues more comfortable as well so i think you're living and breathing it and that that's true leadership by example thank you so much dylan and thank you everyone awesome thank you everyone i hope you enjoyed this episode
If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com. I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.