Episode 24: Product Thinking & Product Design with Justin Leong
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core. Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year.

Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design. Good evening everyone from Singapore here. Welcome to our monthly Working in UX Design webinar session. We are live right now here at 7pm in Singapore time.

and we have a very international audience and international crowd joining us this evening, dialing in from all over the world, including Australia, Bulgaria, Hong Kong, Bolivia and Portugal. How exciting! What an international crowd. Let me first start by introducing this program and myself. I'm Dalen. I'm the founder and general manager at Curious Call.

And we are a education company that focuses on helping mid-career professionals transition into the field of user experience design and product management. And today we are actually very honored to welcome back one of our alumni, which is Justin over here. He started with us one and a half years ago and he landed a role

in Zendit, which is a Y Combinator-backed company. Also a unicorn worth at least a billion dollars. So it's a unicorn and it's a fast growing company in the fintech space in Indonesia, but also has an office here in Singapore as well. So let me share a little bit about Justin. He's a product designer at Zendit.

And he has been involved in various stages of the product delivery, doing a lot of zero to one work for Zendit. So it's in hyper growth stage right now, scaling on a B2B side, B2C side, B2B to C side and an array of different industries across multiple platforms because this is a platform that they are building to allow businesses to work together.

And Justin says his best work happens when he is crafting solutions and championing human experiences in a collaborative, ambitious and innovative team.

and he's very passionate about design as well as giving back to the community. So one day he asked me, "Daylon, how can I give back more to the community?" And I said, "Let's do this first, right? Let's get you to share your wisdom on this platform that we have established about two years ago during COVID. And let's get you to share your lessons that you learned personally as a designer, as well as the things that you observe as a mentor."

So he has actually coach and mentor early stage designers or career transitioners in the field of design by helping them to land their first role and also accelerate their growth as a designer. So he has gone from being a student to being a teacher.

And he has helped more than 50 mentees and was recognized multiple times as a super mentor on ATP LITS. So it's apparently is a top 1% recognition on this design mentorship platform. So very honored to have you back, Justin, and very, very glad that you're one of the first few alumni coming back to do this interview with us.

So tell me, what's the difference between a product designer and a UX designer? I know the answer to that question, but I think maybe it would be nice for you to explain to our audience here because your title is actually a product designer, it's not a UX designer. After experiencing it for one and a half years, what do you think?

It's the definition. Yeah, product designers and UX designers. It's one of the most commonly confused titles in the design industry. Like, oh, when do I use UX? When do I use product? Or like there's even more terms like UX UI or like web developers kind of thing, which related to like, you know, product design kind of thing. But I know that the terms is very different in terms of like hiring managers or like sometimes companies who have very little design maturity

they will kind of confuse, you know, what this title is kind of. So as UX designer, we are designers that design experience for users. So it's more focused in terms of like user experience. So you can think of it in a way that the first thing that UX designers think of it's the users. It's really centered around the users.

Whereas in product design, being a product designer, when we design something, our primary goal is to solve the problems of the user. But in the process, we design this same experience that do the same. And we kind of bundle and package it in the form of a product.

And having this in mind, we need to think of the product at large. We need to have the skill set of a UX designer, but also how to think about how the product actually impacts the businesses.

So we have a holistic understanding of the entire system, where UX is one part of it, but we need to understand things like the product vision, the business goals, the timeline, the strategy of how we're going to push our products, some of the technical constraints or even the revenue aspects of business. So there's a lot more things to think about being a product designer, comparing it with a UX designer. Think of it in a way that you can have the best user experience when it comes

in designing a solution. But the same experience might not be like feasible to maintain and sustain. So maybe due to the effort required, it does not generate enough revenue for the company. So it's going to die very soon as a product.

But the experience can be fantastic. As product designers, we need to understand every aspect of building a product and make the smart trade-off between what works and what does not work for a product.

I think that's a fair explanation. And I think you also gave us a hint earlier about a little bit about what you do more than other designers, right? Because you explained that sometimes you have to go to market, sometimes you have to think about the growth aspects of a product. What would you say is like that? What's that percentage of work that you have to do that's outside of creating the best user experience?

I think it really depends on the different stages of the design thinking process or like, you know, the different stages of your product. So I can be very heavily involved in research. I can be very heavily involved in like, you know, the roadmap planning or like the strategy with my PMs in the early stages when we are trying to launch a product. So I can't really say what's a good percentage.

But I can say on a day-to-day basis, what we do is very different. There's no one day we are doing the same thing. I think there's a lot of things in terms of learning curve that we need to learn from and really grow as designers.

You've been there, you've been in Zendit for one and a half years. You know, what I know, I haven't seen you a lot. I know you've grown some dark eye circles. That's all I observe physically. What is actually going on in a high growth startup?

Right now, I think because the market is shifting also, a lot of tech lay off as you guys catching up with the news. So a lot of strategy is changing towards more revenue focused kind of design strategy or like product strategy.

On top of that, there are multiple products. Some companies are going in a downsizing kind of reducing headcount kind of thing. So there will be times that you will be working on multiple ad hoc projects or so. So there's a lot of context shifting where you need to get information for different products in terms of the users using your product. In a hyper growth startup, I think

Everything changes very fast. It's super fast-paced. Things can just change depending on the environment also. What do you love about this? What do you love being in a hyper growth environment?

So I think for me, I love being a product designer in HyperGrowth Sala because I learn a lot of things. I get to touch on all sorts of aspects of being a product designer, not just being UX-focused or user-centric. I mean, that's the core of what we do, designing for users.

At the same time, we are thinking like taking in data points or doing some data analysis to see what works and what does not work. What brings in revenue for the company? How do we grow our product? And seeing that really is very different from just being a UX designer.

not enjoy so much about being in a hyper growth company? I think because for me, I work kind of in silos in my product team. So there's not much collaboration with other designers unless your project or product touches on the surface of other product designers' product. So let's say for me, if I need to work with onboarding for my product,

So I will work with the onboarding product design kind of thing. So that's the only rare instances that you get to work with other designers. But mainly you're heading from the end to end process. So more or less your time will be taken up just working on your product alone. In terms of design processes, it's not fixed in stone, like comparing it with large companies who have their design process in place.

And as a design team, we are still figuring out how to go about working together, collaborating with different teams, bringing the best experience for our users, designing in a way that it's standardized across all of our products. Yeah, so I think that is one thing that really is different from working in a more mature kind of company that it's like your fan companies.

It sounds to me like it's very fluid and I do remember that you told me once before that you really like the people you work with because they are so smart. It feels like your, I think in the first couple of months you felt like an imposter but then I say hey dude you already got hired so just go through with it. What has been your first three months like in the company?

Oh, first three months I was struggling very badly because first I don't know anything about Payment Gateways. I needed to gain a lot more context in terms of like what I was building. I needed to understand the users. I need to understand, you know, what's the business goals. I needed to even understand what a product designer do because at that stage I was just relatively new to, you know, the industry also. And I was just learning the ropes as I go. But in

In terms of that, I'm quite fortunate to be in Zended because it kind of accelerated my growth because I was doing a lot of things. I was really wearing multiple hats and trying new things. In terms of like, there's no proper processes. You can be more daring and bold in terms of like suggesting new ideas or like creating workshops that may work for your own products. You're taking full control and taking full charge of everything

what you're building and that is how you know from three months lack of knowledge Justin becomes you know one and a half years I won't say a guru but more expert in what I do

We have a saying, right? Like when you work in a high growth startup, because I've been in one before and that startup is called Razer, but not really a small startup anymore. They always have a joke, right? Like one year working in a startup is like three years working elsewhere, anywhere else, like in an MNC, in an SME, like you learn so much, right? So would you agree with that statement? Like you've been there one and a half years, it feels like you've worked four and a half years outside.

Totally agree with that statement because I just had a chat with my manager also. I was just telling her it feels like I've been in the company for five years. It feels like I've been building my product for a very long time because we just go through, you know, the different quarters, you know, year by year and then, you know,

time passes so fast that you really lose track of your time being a product designer in a high growth startup. But at the same time, with that being said, as a designer in a high growth startup, you need to really take charge.

in terms of like your career growth, your career opportunities in your own design team or even to really map it out on your own and be responsible for your own career. And I think for context also, like why they say like it's three times the time, it's also because you work very hard, right? Like you're putting in way more hours than most people. Usually we're talking about a 50 to 60 hour work week. Is that accurate or we're talking about more than that?

No, that's accurate. I think in Zendit we still have work-life balance. Okay, 50 to 60 hours and then what we're also talking about is rapid iteration, right? So every single thing you do is a lot faster, so there's no time delay from other people. That's why it feels very fast. Yeah, so we work in a sprint kind of format where

every week is a different brain. We need to push out our designs or like reiterations in a very rapid format. So it's interesting because you mentioned that you have to work with PMs, but sometimes you also have to take ownership. So I'm curious, you know, like when it comes to product thinking, when it comes to some of the things that PMs are supposed to do, because I used to be a PM myself, where do you draw the line with your PM? Like,

It sounds like you had to come up with a go-to-market plan. Shouldn't that be the PM's responsibility?

Maybe let's talk about what's the scope of a PM and a product designer in Zendit first. So maybe the scope of the product manager, it's a lot wider in the sense that you need to get buy-in from stakeholders, you need to do the selling, you need to do the marketing. Mainly you are the decision maker, whereas a product designer, you are really in

more of a focus or like a deeper focus in what brings out the best experience for the customers. So in terms of product management-wise, it's really about owning that strategy, owning that roadmap, the scope of your product. You understand the data, the success metrics that you put for your own product in terms of the product

designer role, it's more towards like helping influence the overall product and design decisions in terms of like informing them in who our target audience is, the personas, the user flows, doing the interaction design, prototyping. I mean, there are some portions that is, if you look at it at a Venn diagram, it will be crossed together. So like things like user research and use cases and a lot of other stuff, it's

it's both product managers and the product designers doing the same thing so it's really one it's the decision maker the other would be the influencer of the product decisions and design decisions i think that's a fair explanation so you said when you joined a company you had to really kind of train yourself to think more product right instead of just being like a designer designer

So maybe can you help us understand for those of us who have never built a product or manage a product before, how do you upskill yourself as a designer to be more product focused?

Yeah, so I think one thing that Julie Tso, she's a very famous VP of Design in Facebook before, she wrote "Keynote Manager". She mentioned this in one of the podcasts, I think it's Lenny's podcast before, saying how do you go about improving on your product thinking skills would be experience, in your daily experience, observe and take notes of like

the things that you use or the things that you go through in terms of like the products or the experiences that you're using on a day-to-day basis.

and understand why is it built that way. Understand who the product designers or product managers are targeting and how do they go about building it. It's like working backwards and understanding their thought process of like, oh, why did they put this button here? Or even why did Google change some of their stuff? Or even going to a restaurant, why do they have queues in a way that it

It's a form in a snake format kind of thing. So all these little things really help you think about, well, why are people doing it in this way? Then have chats with people in the field of product design or like being a product manager kind of thing and understand their way of thinking also. So it's...

It's really about that banter you have with other designers, other product managers to understand what their thought process is and understand how products are being built. I think that's a very good way to really improve on your product thinking skills. Understand things like why certain features are built in that certain way. Is it to increase the revenue of the company? Is it to reduce mental load of the whole overall experience?

And it will really help you push further in terms of your product thinking, your product strategy, how do you go about building a product.

Yeah, it sounds a lot like critical thinking to me, which definitely I think a lot of designers can do more to train that muscle. But I'm also aware, like when you call yourself a product designer, you're also somewhat responsible for the strategy, right? Whether it's the design strategy or whether it's the product strategy, you're somewhat a co-collaborator in this space. So how did you actively like...

build your strategic thinking or strategic mindset in this case. Just kind of like looking back at your own experience. Was it true like a lot of conversations with very very smart people and then suddenly one day everything just clicked?

I think in Zendit, it's a very flat hierarchy so you can really talk to anyone in the company. I think that's the pros of being in a startup also. I think you have to talk to people who are in the marketing field or like marketing department. You need to talk to people who are in the finance department, the ops department, outside of just your product team. So you will get

more understanding why are they pushing it in this way. Let's say product works closely with marketing, right? To push out a product. So you understand what's the go-to market strategy from the marketing side, but also how can you help smoothen that entire process on the product side to have a more holistic or more in a way, we all package a product that will be pushed out in the upcoming weeks or months.

It sounds like you did a lot of extra work on your own, talking to different people within your organization and just trying to figure out what does the big picture kind of like look like as well. But wait, wait a minute, I mean, aren't you guys all very, very busy? Like how do people still give you time and talk to you? I think we just have to have to just talk to each other.

Okay, that's fair. So if I were to ask you again, like, you know, you said three months you were struggling a lot, right? Now, let's say we have someone over here who's going to join a hyper growth startup and maybe they are kind of like you, right? In your first three months or even like worse off, what kind of advice or what would you tell them to do? Like, what should they be doing in their first 90 days to really do a good job and impress the people in their team?

I think set expectations in terms of like your own expectations of what you want to achieve within this three months and then communicate the expectations to your manager and how he or she can actually help you you know grow as a designer or like connect you with the right people to you know give you that knowledge that you need to build your products so I think that's one thing that that

i feel to do in my three months in zended so i was exploring a lot on my own i think i have that that fear that you know i don't want to let people know that i don't know what i'm doing so being a new new person you always want to prove that oh you can do it on your own but don't be afraid to you know ask questions don't be afraid to you know go go about really setting the expectations of

or like the goals you have within this three months and really um communicate that to your product team in terms like how do you uh go about you know on on a day-to-day you know designing for a product how do i work better with you in terms of like you know a designer working with a pm a designer working with a tech technique so once all those expectations are up at least you know that oh you know these are some of the things that i need to work on to actually grow as a designer

On top of that, you need to really understand your product as a whole to start ramping up on your user research, start understanding the users and then really build the product and have a lot of reiterations from there. Is there anything

any book or any resources or anything that you think would be immensely helpful for someone who is going to join a team like Zendit or a hyper growth startup or is going to be joining a big tech fan company is there any resource you would point them towards?

I think there's so many resources out there, right? There's YouTube, there's Medium articles, but I won't specifically say there's a one-feet-all kind of solution. So as you read all these articles, as you go through different designs, have chats with different designers, everyone has their own solution of how they will do it. So in that sense, see what you can adapt to your current situation that you're in.

and apply it to whatever fits your solutioning in terms of when you're designing something or when you're going through something. But there are some good books like I have behind me. Make Time is one of a good book that helps me prioritize as a designer. There is Hope.

if you're doing like b2c product sprint i think uh by jake nap also because yeah we are working with sprints right the lean startup zero to one kind of thing by peter there's a lot of good books out there so i i can't recommend a specific book right now okay that sounds fair you know even ask your product managers for recommendations because sounds like if you if you're going to become a product designer you kind of need to also think like them i have a question here from the audience and

Antonia over here asks: What kind of tools are you using on a daily basis? Do you have to learn a new tool when you join Zen-Din?

I think for tools-wise, we use a lot in terms of like Figma, FigJam for brainstorming. Before FigJam was even out, we were using MiroBots. So anything that helps, you know, communicating or like, you know, brainstorming on a daily basis. But our main tool would be Figma for UI purposes, be it, you know, prototyping or like wireframing or even doing the HiFi designs at the end of the day. Any quick comments on the acquisition of Figma?

We don't want to comment. But not looking forward. Alright, yeah, we're just joking. Anyway, we have two other questions. One is, do you have a mentor within your company? I think mentor-wise, it's my direct manager. I think

she has a strong empathy for her designers or her direct reports. She is someone very good to talk to. If I'm facing any blockers, I go straight up to her because she is the head of design also and she needs to ensure that

the design team does well. Like what I mentioned just now, don't be afraid to let her know any struggles kind of thing or let him or her know that you're having any struggles with your work or you don't understand certain things. It's a lot better if you tell her and he or she can actually address it for you or find different solutions that maybe you wouldn't have thought of.

So it's more towards like a mentorship manager kind of role rather than seeing it as a manager that, you know, I think a lot of people have this perspective, perception.

of like a manager only picks on you when you know you're performing badly kind of thing. So yeah, I see it otherwise. I see it as an opportunity to grow and ask the right question to help me reach my own targets as a designer. So someone also asked like what are the things that you find most challenging at the moment?

I think keeping up with the current market, I think it's more towards the macroeconomics that's happening. So there's a lot of restrictions in terms of like what you can do and what you cannot do. Some things is within, not within your control. Always focus on what you can control and do the best you can in terms of like pushing our product at

at its best form. Someone asked a general question. As a designer, do you have to keep working on your product on a daily basis? Do you all ship code daily or what's going on?

We don't ship on a daily basis. So sometimes there will be times that we are, you know, really understanding the users by doing interviews. Sometimes it's really about understanding product direction or like how we are pushing it on the next phase kind of thing. We don't do designs on a daily basis. Like we don't do UI user interaction on a daily basis. How long are your sprints then? It's usually two weeks.

Let's talk a little bit about your mentoring experience. I know that's the other part of you and you've been mentoring on ADP List for a while now and you've achieved like super mentor status. Like what do you need to do to get that top 1% kind of like recognition?

I think for me, I didn't really think so much into it. I just want to genuinely help people because back then I was struggling to even find a job in UX, right? I think I did reach out to you and change my strategy like couple of times also. So even before joining Curious Core, I went to other bootcamps out there and

there weren't a lot of career support. But right now it's so easy to get a mentor through ADP List, through LinkedIn or wherever where you would just reach out to people, you network with people and you really understand their experiences and try to see how you can learn from it also. So I wasn't really

aiming to achieve like you know the super mentor status or like you know being the top one person but it's just by helping so many designers get into the field of ux or like really accelerating their careers into

in terms of getting a promotion. So I always had this initial thinking of having this imposter syndrome when I first started, like, "Oh, who am I to mentor someone?" I kind of changed my perspective of it in terms of seeing it in that way. I see it as like, "Oh, I have these kind of experiences that I can share with someone. Maybe they are going through a similar pathway as me."

maybe they have similar background as me and they can learn from how I experience or my pathway as a designer. So that was why I started mentorship. It wasn't really to aim to achieve a super mentor status.

Totally. And I think because of the fact that you've mentored so many people, I'm very curious about what you're observing from portfolios of people who are switching into the UX industry or people who are like junior UX designers. What do you notice

are some of the common mistakes in this portfolio or in their profile? I think for common mistakes wise, I don't think it's really a common mistake but this is what a lot of bootcamps are teaching in terms of like having a linear process, having a very cookie cutter kind of process but

In real world, when you come out of a bootcamp, it doesn't work that way. So it doesn't go through the five design thinking stages. It doesn't necessarily, you know, you have to face very ambiguous kind of situations. So you really need to adapt and

adapt and to really find something that fits your situation. A lot of times I see a lot of new designers forcing their ideas or solutions and you can see it through the process because like they have a solution in mind already, just that they didn't think it through in between and they are forcing, you know, "Oh, I need to do user research."

And the user research always will force in that direction of how they think or the end solution that they have in mind. Or like even when they do prototyping, they already have that image of what they want to design.

And it's just very biased in that sense. And you can see from their research, it doesn't have that bridge or link towards their end design decisions. I mean, that's some of the things that I've been seeing because we have been learning from bootcamps or like from schools that, oh, we need to, you know, do the five design thinking stages. But there's a lot of times you need to think

outside of this five design thinking stages. So even like just now I mentioned being a product designer, you need to think of like some of the metrics or like business impacts that your product have. As a designer, you are not just designing great experiences, you're also designing for your business, right? Without the business, without your product,

you know, even how well you have this experience, it doesn't really matter anymore. So in that sense, it's really seeing things as a whole rather than breaking it down, having a linear process. So that's what

some of the common mistakes or more commonly known mistakes when going through a portfolio. We have a related question from the audience. Natasha asked, like, you know, there's a lot of designers out there. How do I kind of stand out from these designers? Like, how do I show my creativity? How do I let my

ideas or design solutions stand out? I think like what I mentioned, what impacts, what does your product impact? How does it impact the business? How does it reach product goals or design goals that you have initially stated? What are some of the success metrics that you have? On top of that, it's really about showcasing what kind of impact you have as a designer, understanding what

what kind of companies that you're going into and then those companies have different different types of designers that they want to hire so let's say if uh they learn hiring someone that is

is more of a business kind of UX strategy kind of designer. So if you are showing the five design thinking process, it doesn't work on him because maybe he's looking at how you can value add as a designer in terms of like what kind of impact it will bring to the business. So you need to really adapt and to see who you're interviewing with.

who you want to join and what are they looking out for and really see how you can present your portfolio in that sense of like, oh, what kind of impact or value I bring to your company. I know that before you landed on Zendit, like you had a period of time where you

you were just trying your best to kind of like really land on a role. I was wondering, I know you made some mental breakthroughs, but I'm also curious, like what were the things you did or adjust in order for yourself to kind of land a role in a hyper growth startup? I did a lot of tweaking in terms of like the way I look for jobs in terms of like the strategy I approach finding a job. So the way I connect with people, the way I network,

it's a lot different also. In terms of like tweaks on my portfolio, I see what works for different companies. I learn from different designers out there. I go through a lot of mentorship sessions also. To reiterate on my portfolio,

There's no one proper way to go about designing a portfolio. Even for junior designers, mid designers, they have very different portfolios out there. Like if you see senior designers, they don't even showcase a lot of their five design thinking stages. It's more towards like showing like what they have and what does it impact in terms of like their design decisions. So yeah, I mean, I did a lot of reiterations on my portfolio to get to

a hyper-grown startup. I think that's really, really great because I think you are actually practicing what you said, right? Like earlier, like Julie Zuo said, the best way to improve your product thinking is by observing and asking why. And you applied the same process to your own portfolio. You observe and you ask why. Why am I not getting the results? And then you make certain adjustments. So really classic example. Someone over here asked, do you have to pick up any...

tech development skills in order to communicate better with your engineering team? I think for us, we don't necessarily need to know a lot of the tech knowledge, but it's a plus for us to know because yeah, talking to tech leads or developers, it's a lot easier if you know the technical terms, it's a lot easier to run your sprints.

at the same time as designers we are more focused on you know pushing the user experience or like you know giving the product strategy or like you know working with pms very closely i think pms are there um to to be that communicator so between designers and tech people so yeah it's not necessary we need to know like the technical terms or like you know any technical knowledge but unless

you're working on a very technical product that requires you to understand like for example API products so there's a lot more technical knowledge that you need to brush up on because you are designing for developers for example it really depends on situation but in terms of like during the sprints and all I think the PM is there to help facilitate everything also

So I think one point you brought across that was very apt was you mentioned it really depends on the product that you're building, right? Especially how technology focused your product is. If it's not too technology focused, maybe you can skip that phase. But if it's very, very tech focused, like even if you, let's say your product is like AI based and even if you know nothing about AI, you should also learn how it works.

in order to build a better product. There is a scenario-based question from one of your juniors. So...

Let's say you're the first hire as a product designer in a tech startup and there's currently no proper design process or framework which creates a lot of back and forth and misalignment within different teams. I guess his question is like what would you do, right? He's suggesting a documentation for everyone to follow but what would you do in this case if there's no process or framework yet? Sounds a lot like when you're working on a team of one.

I think like what I mentioned just now, set expectations to your different stakeholders. I think that's very important. Communicate how do you usually work as a designer? How do you work with PMs? How do you work with tech people? That will help, you know, let them understand, you know, your day-to-day. What do you do and your processes in terms of like, how do you go about thinking of designing a solution for, you know, your product?

At the same time, because the design maturity level is relatively low. If you're saying like, oh, you know, there's no proper design process, there's no proper framework. I think

it's an opportunity for you to go ahead and try new different frameworks that fit your product. See benchmark with different companies out there in terms of like how are they doing it in different companies. And like I mentioned, learn from other experiences from other designers in terms of like how they run their design team. And slowly you will find ways to, you know,

build that maturity level in your company. And that's where you slowly gain trust with your upper management and then you can do a lot more from there. I want to double down on what Justin said on the trust part. I think that is super important. If you don't have trust with anyone you work with,

It doesn't matter what kind of process you set, no one will follow it. So yeah, I think that's something to think about. How do you build trust first and how do you build trust quickly with your team? So let's go back to mentorship and mentoring. If someone were to come to you and to ask you for mentorship,

What kind of people would you like to mentor more? Or what kind of people you enjoy mentoring? I think for me, I don't really filter out who I want to mentor. But I think who I enjoy mentoring is really having that long-term relationship with my mentees.

And also in terms of seeing how they are very passionate about design and how they want to grow as designers, I think that is someone that I really look forward to in terms of speaking to or helping them grow their career. So I think that's how I see mentorship, in terms of my mentees.

I think it's great because you're giving back so much and I've also directed quite a number of people to you because after they graduate, I just say, go look for your seniors, Justin. So thank you for taking them under your wing and helping them out. Like it kind of works out some of the kinks as well. Someone asked a related question. Like, do you think every designer needs a mentor? Yeah, I think in terms of like,

I won't say just designers, but I think everyone needs a mentor. It can be a life mentor, it can be a career mentor, it can be your industry mentor kind of thing. I think it's a lot better to have a mentor to try figuring out on your own.

Because people have been there, people have experienced that process before. Why go through the hassle of going through the same challenges when you can just ask how to go about doing it? Or how can you grow as a designer? So yeah, I mean, in terms of mentorships, I have career coach, I have my design mentors, I have people who are my life mentors.

So it's not just about having mentors for design, but more towards how you go about approaching growth or have that growth mindset to continuously grow yourself. Because it's a lot easier working with someone else rather than working alone.

In terms of design leaders should be mentors or not, I don't think all design leaders should be mentors. It really depends on their interest, whether they have interest in mentoring others, if they are comfortable even interacting with a mentee. They can be the best at their work, but they can also be not very good at mentorship.

So, yeah, I mean, it really depends on each individual, whether they want to, you know, share their experiences or they want to be a mentor. Yeah, I think it's super important to have the heart for it because if you don't have the heart for it, you won't do it for a long time. But I also feel like the fact that you're mentoring people

early in your career, your UX career, also gives you an advantage in future to be a manager, right? Because you've really proven to others, hey, you have the ability to mentor other people and help them get better. So it's actually quite a good pool of evidence that you're kind of building.

So that's really great. I'm just wondering for our listeners and our audience out there, do you have any advice for your mentees and also like your would-be mentees or even to the general public who's listening to this at the moment? I would say stay curious, have a growth mindset. Yeah, be more open to meet new people, network around. I

I think being new in the industry is also a pro in that sense that people won't judge you as much. So what if you reach out to people and they don't connect with you? It doesn't really matter, right? There's nothing for you to lose in that sense. So continuously reach out to people, start networking, start finding mentors and really have that growth mindset.

I do remember you're not much of an extrovert. So I want to ask you to kind of elaborate a little bit. Like for those of us who are introverts here, you know, what advice? Because you're asking me, go network. Like every bone in my body is saying I don't want to network.

So what advice do you have for the introverts? I think there's different ways to approach networking, right? It can not be on a face-to-face basis. It can be through LinkedIn. It can be through a friend kind of thing or like a referral from, you know, let's say I asked Dalen if he knows someone in the field. So it's really about really putting yourself out there and really finding the right people to guide you along the way.

I forced myself to network so it's a very different thing for me because I know it will help me in terms of my career growth. It will help me as a designer. I think there is and I'm sure you found a way to kind of convince yourself and to manage it in a way that you at least find enjoyable to do.

And I think the key here is actually consistency, right? It's not so much like, hey, you know, like be extrovert for one week and just get it going. But actually, it is like something you need to do quite consistently. And even something like mentoring, I think that's a way of networking as well, right? It's like you're offering your time and you're also opening up your world to other people.

And I believe ADP List, when you join as a mentor, you get a chance to network with the other mentors as well. Yeah. So there's a lot of opportunities to network. I think being a mentor also accelerated my career a lot.

in terms of like not just you know in the future you're becoming a manager but you're learning so many different problems from your mentees you're finding different solutions for them or like you know if you can clear their blocker you're like applying that in your own you know workspace or so so in that sense you can really learn from your mentees also so and that's yeah there's nothing to lose becoming a mentor for me i feel

I love that and I love the advice about staying curious because that is what we're all about at Curious Call. So thank you so much for taking the time off to share your wisdom and your learnings from the last one and a half years and

I definitely wish you well in your career, see a lot of potential for growth and I think a lot of people are interested to reach out to you for mentorship now as I'm looking at the chat at the moment. So what's the best way to do that?

Is it LinkedIn? Yeah, they can connect with me on LinkedIn or find me through ADP List. Either one is fine. I will just drop my LinkedIn. Thank you so much, Justin, for your time. And thank you everyone for listening in and also attending this live webinar event. Next month, we'll also have another guest coming in to share about his or her work experience on working in UX design. And for those of you who are new to this episode, we are...

about designers working in the Asia Pacific region. So if you have anyone you'd like to recommend, just feel free to ask them to reach out to me or just come reach out to me on LinkedIn. And meanwhile, I hope you learn something new today and all the best. And we'll see you in the next episode and the next session. Take care. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com. I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.