#104 Collaborating with content designers (at MEWS)
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A lot of people are very absorbed in the bubble in the IT industry. You know, when you talk with people who are in IT all the time, every day, you forget that the people who use your products, most of them are not in IT, like the 99%.

Because there's a whole world of people out there. Not everyone works in IT and not everyone speaks that language. And that's kind of the bridge that UX writers build is from the IT bubble to the rest of the world. Because a lot of the times, like you'll see developers write content that is just like so heavily technical and you're like, who's going to understand that? The people who they don't know that they don't understand because they don't live in GitHub. I think

I think the biggest thing about UX writing is building that bridge between our little high-tech bubble and normal humans.

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Honest UX Talks. My name is Anfisa and today I'm not joined by Ioana. Instead, I'm joined by Mishko or Michael Lauda, who happened to be my coworker. Mishko is the content designer working together with me in my team at work. And today we decided to have a quick chat about collaborating with each other.

We had an episode about like two years ago with your catcher, I believe his surname, who basically broke down what actually is UX writing? What do content designers do? But today I really want to talk a little bit more practical stuff of what really is happening, what's going on between designers and content designers and how does the collaboration work? Who's responsible for what? What's the best way to collaborate from a content designer perspective? So with that being said, hello, Mishko. How is your morning? Hello.

My morning is not bad. It's early. Yes, it is. Before work time. Before work, it is a nice work day. It's nice and warm up. Nice. Let's talk about collaboration. Let's talk about collaboration. By the way, can you maybe mention a little bit about yourself so our listeners also understand who you are, what you did before, and what brought you to Muse? By the way, those of you who doesn't know, I'm working at Muse. It's just a hospitality product. We work on the guest experiences for travelers booking hotels.

So my name is Mishko. I go by Mishko. My name is actually like Michael Lahoda, but Mishko is sort of the Ukrainian short version of that. Yeah, I was born and raised in Canada, studied in languages, so like French, Ukrainian, Russian up through university. Then I moved to Ukraine, became a journalist, then became an editor.

And then I left that and joined the IT industry as a UX writer. And my first job was working for Wix. For those who don't know, it's like a website building platform. I really enjoyed it because they had a really cool structure and that they actually taught me everything that I knew about UX in general. So they took me through all the basics, how to sort of think, where to position yourself in the team and everything like that. I worked for them for like two and a half years and then I switched positions over to Muse.

met Anfisa and we've been working together for a little while now. Yes, you have been now for almost two years now. Almost two years now for me, yeah. Nice.

But obviously we haven't been working one-on-one for like the last 11 months. This is very interesting. So you mentioned you were working as a journalist, as an editor, which seems to be one of the most common paths to get into the content design or UX writing. Obviously this sounds stereotypical, but what brought you here? Why did you kind of get interested in the UX writing? I think one of the things...

Of course, was that like five years ago now, the IT industry was just skyrocketing. This was like just before COVID. I actually joined Wix, I think it was a month before COVID kicked off. So they were just like, here's your laptop and go home. I think what really got me interested in UX writing in particular, A, for me, it seemed like a logical step to break through into like the IT industry. But specifically,

specifically UX writing, because a lot of it is about organization and structure. And I think that when you're working as a journalist or an editor, really the most important thing is to make sure that the information that is coming in, obviously in the news industry, it's super fast. So you have to really take all that information in, process it, and then present it to the public. And that's kind of the exact same thing that UX writers do. Just we get a little bit more time in some cases, but

But I think it's basically the same kind of thing. So for people in news who want to break into IT, I think it's probably the most logical step is to become like a UX writer because it's all about processing information, building hierarchy and sort of that same kind of logical process there. It's interesting because you did mention logical a few times and I did notice that you appreciate logic. You always mentioned this was so logical. Something that you seem to enjoy a lot.

I always have like this thing because marketing, I feel like it's a battle with marketing. Not that I don't like marketing, but I always feel that it's, it's a lot about buzzwords and it's not so much about what is reality. I mean, that is kind of what it is.

Yeah, it's about like inflating and sort of you have to sell. That's the whole point. I am a firm believer that a well-written, well-built product speaks for itself. It's kind of like, let's focus on what's important and then you can

go inflate it as much as you want once it's already like at the spot where it should be. - When you were talking about, I was thinking that UX writing is basically long-term sales strategy, whereas marketing is when you really need to sell it right now. Like what can you do right now to inflate the interest?

Interesting. I was very curious when you said that there is a lot of similarities between journalism with content writing. What would you say is the differences? Because sometimes I notice a lot of people who are listening to our podcast are people who are just getting interested or getting familiar with the industry. And I feel like people could have very different backgrounds, maybe for those of you who's listening and currently transitioning to design. It will be very interesting to hear your perspective. What would you say, except for the timeline, is actually changing in your work right now?

what are the different maybe mental models that you're using or whatever application is different as

That's an interesting question. I just want to say that for me, the interesting thing, a lot of UX writers and content designers, they call themselves like wordsmiths and word wizards. I don't think it's that at all. It's all about process, structure, formula. It's not a creative thing. You just really need to be able to dissect information and display it exactly in the most clear way possible for people to understand. That's what's similar with news.

But I think that what's different is maybe the news you definitely try to use more peppy words that will kind of get people's ears to sort of, you know, they want to like perk up and listen to that direction. Clickbaity? Yeah, a little bit clickbaity. That's definitely like news. You know, all those funny word sayings. Isn't it like a marketing thing? Yeah, it is a bit of marketing. You know, I hope this email finds you well.

People like to hear things that they associate with, and there are situations when you would use that in UX writing, but for the most part, you want to be the most understandable as possible. This is why it's hard for me to say what's different, because they are very similar in that aspect.

Makes sense. Again, coming back to the beginning, what got you interested in general, in journalism, in editing? You said also you studied languages. Was that the threat that got you into journalism? Yeah, actually, my path to journalism was really strange. I was kind of interested in journalism. I was more of like an international relations kind of person, but I decided to go the language route.

And I just sort of ended up in journalism because I was always sort of a creative person. So I was a videographer for the longest time. And that's actually how I got into journalism was that I knew how to shoot, how to properly set up cameras and edit everything. But I took that and they also knew that I knew English, which was a big thing in Ukraine at the time because they were like, wow, we don't have a lot of native speakers. So that was like a big thing.

That's kind of like the biggest reason why I ended up in journalism, actually. But then with a bit of time, I started really liking it, breaking down information. But you have to be super careful because everything you say literally goes out to the public, to like thousands, if not millions of people. And they're going to hear what you're saying. It has to be accurate. Same thing with UX writing. You need to absolutely break down how

how the product works, you need to explain it to people in a way that is the most simple so that everybody understands it. That's kind of a thing that you also always have to be careful of because in a complicated system like we have at Muse, it's a massive property management system, right? So you need to make sure that absolutely everyone understands how it works from the very first moment they open it up, which is daunting because

You open this thing up and you're looking and there's buttons everywhere. There's menus under menus because it's so complicated. Using the right words to make it as simple as possible to make it intuitive so that people can look at it and go, okay, I need to do this. Oh, that looks like it's going to guide me over there.

On that button, you look down the menu. Oh, that's the next thing I'm going. And it kind of smoothly transitions you through to get the thing done. That's my main thing is to guide users to make sure that whatever they opened the system to do, they can very simply follow the instructions to go do that thing.

There are so many things that we can pick up from here. Well, first of all, I'll just say that it's ironic, I guess, that you said you were creative and you were doing videography. And then you said, oh, well, that's not a creative job at all. Are you missing that creative part? Or I guess you may be doing something on the side. Yeah, I learned a few things. There's going to be some people who are definitely going to be like, oh, he's insane. But I worked in creative space.

stuff with like videography and I used to film videos for other companies and stuff. We used to have a creative agency here. And what I realized is that when you're doing something that you love, for me, it was videography and photography. When you add money to that, it's like, yay, I get to make money from the thing that I love. But then you start having clients and clients start changing things. Oh, we have a few changes. We have a few changes.

It stops being the thing that you love and it starts being just it's not that it's a job It's kind of like even if you brought your heart and soul and poured it into this video for a company and they go And we don't really like it. It just crushes everything so that actually killed everything that I loved about making videos and photos So at that point I was like, all right, I'm gonna go do something. That's that's probably

probably less creative, but something that I still enjoy. And like, I'm a big fan of Marie Kondo. She wrote a book about like cleaning your house, putting things in order, organizing stuff. And I really like that sort of systematic tidying up. It's therapeutic for me. And so in the same way, UX writing is kind of therapeutic for me because it's, it's just understanding what everyone is saying. So like talking with the developers, you need to understand how

how it works actually from beginning to end, explain to me every little detail. Is this going to come from here or come from there? Can the user then do this or that? How do they interact with it and everything? Same thing with designers. We talk a lot about, is this going to be drop down or is it a toggle or is it going to be a checkbox? And all those things change the language every time you make a decision like that.

It's a very structured way to go about things, but it's definitely not a creative job. But I guess going back to the question, I prefer to keep my creativity as a personal hobby and leave it at that. Total understandable. I mean, this is something we literally just talked about in a previous episode. And we even brought up another creator who had that. Somebody asked him, "Why don't you do your side projects as your full-time thing?" And he was like, "I'm going to kill the joy. Like, I don't want to do that."

Same for me and my co-host, Ioana. We basically do a lot of side projects, but don't make it a full time. Totally understandable. By the way, I found a book name. It's called "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up." That's what it's called. Thank you. And you mentioned the book. So immediately I wanted to ask you an obvious question. How important for UX writer is to know the words, to read a lot and to be like a master of the words? You mentioned today this term of "Vizards of the Words." If you are the UX writer or content designer who doesn't read books, is that a crime?

Here's a secret. I hate reading. I used to like reading and then like, I don't know what happened. It's just not interesting to me. I'm a big YouTube guy. I absolutely love listening to information from people on YouTube. You can find like six hour long videos about people talking about productivity. I think it's just amazing. I love it. They're also so aesthetic and everything, but I just don't read much. It's not a huge joy for me. And

I don't think it's a crime if a UX writer doesn't read. Reading, writing, I think that's sort of the split of like something that you enjoy. Maybe it's a creative thing that you want to do, but I do not think that it's an absolute must to be a UX writer. You need to sort of tap into the logical part of your brain 100% and just...

Use that. You can find the words. It's not hard. Open up thesaurus.com. But what the main thing is, is that you convey exactly what is in front of you in the way that is most understandable for the person who's on the receiving end. Reading, obviously, and books and writing, those all are super helpful. But

So is any kind of form of communication where someone is trying to convey something. If you can understand it, I think that's the most important thing. So communication happens in a lot of different ways. So it's not just words. I could go deeper into this with like AI and stuff. I think communication

The stereotypes, or I guess this strong perception comes from me, at least a cultural thing that we were always told that if you don't read, you won't be able to speak properly. Your communication will suck. You won't be able to express yourself. You have to read. Read feeds the choice of the words. I guess there is a truth in this, but then like you said, it doesn't need to come specifically just from the books today. There are so many other ways for communication. So it's true that, for example, this is a little bit

different topic but obviously this is the same for the languages like you don't learn English just from reading the books you learn from talking from listening from analyzing from writing from all the different stuff so it's true that you don't learn for specifically reading the books yeah yeah I have a point on that and this was something that I was thinking about recently is when you're doing any kind of communication and like I started writing music again recently and it's one of those things that

that I think is super interesting because music is communication. I wrote a blog on this about how I came to this mind-blowing yet obvious conclusion, but for me it was like, oh, right. And it's the same thing with language, it's the same thing with like anything in terms of communication. There are basically two avenues.

You have input and you have output. When you're listening to or you're reading, that helps you learn a language 100%, but that doesn't help you produce. You can understand it. The more you listen, the more you read. You can understand as much as you want, but the second you open your mouth, it goes, ah, ah, ah.

And like, it's hard. So the only way to produce, to communicate yourself is to practice. And that's going to be, if you're into literature, then you have to write so that you can convey your emotions and your ideas properly. If it's about speaking, you have to talk.

If you want to like do anything. And this was kind of a point of my blog was that with music, I listened to so much music. It's ridiculous. And I love every genre, everything. Like I listened to hours a day and,

And I get to writing music and I'm like, oh, I have all these great ideas in my head. I'm just going to sit down and get them out. They can't come out because I haven't been writing music long enough for me to just go, oh, boop, done. So I have all these ideas stuck in my head, but I can't produce them because I don't have the amount of practice that's required to actually get them out.

Yeah, I think it's very familiar to every junior designer who's like, "I have this great idea in my head, I just want to visualize it." And then you got three lines not aligning or something. Yeah. Yeah, always like that. You have to sit in Figma and you have to design a bunch of nonsense you don't want so that you can know where the tools are and how to shape things properly to get them exactly how you actually want. Yeah, there is this cliche phrase that you have to spend 800 hours or something to master a thing.

Not sure about the songwriting or Figma, but for sure you have to put hours into it. Okay, almost the last question before we actually get into the collaboration stuff. I know we're pushing it away for a little bit, it's all interesting. I think the last question I was curious about on your perspective. So you said it's logic, it's finding the right words. It's almost like I wanted to also bring the word accessibility because it feels like it's an embedded thing.

thing in the process, whereas in UX design, it's still sometimes like a afterthought. But I'll get there. Not now. My actual question is how much of the writing is a storytelling? Because you did mention the literature and input and output and like a processing of information. And when I think about what we produce, right, even at Muse, even for guest tools or guest journey, it's a lot of the, just like a two, three word kind of line, two little titles. You don't really expand or tell an interesting thing there.

But a lot of this is still mastering the words, right? You pick the right words to communicate something simply. And words we will always associate with storytelling, with literature, with writing down. Is there a storyteller at all in your work? Yes, everything is a story. Stories are structured. You have a beginning, you have a middle, you have an end. Same thing with every flow that you work on. There's, okay, I need to get this thing done. That's the entrance point of the flow.

The middle is obviously the journey. Okay, I have to click this. Then this tells me that, okay, I'm going to do this. And then the end is hopefully you get done the thing that you wanted to get done. In our case, that is property management system, that's probably checking in a guest for the staff at least. Or if it's the guest, I need to get to the hotel and check in and go to my room.

That whole thing is a story which can be broken down into a lot of micro stories along the way. So yeah, it's all storytelling. So good to hear because I was like very fixed on, you know, this one screen and this one little title that is not possible to say the story, but it makes total sense.

think about the whole flow just like designers do that one title could be an entire odyssey this is good to know um and it's so nice that they brought up this storytelling like structure i love to talk about the storytelling structure and how it applies in everything we do and so it's nice that you also apply or think about that when you are working as a content designer 100 i mean it's all a story every everything's a story everything we do is a story reality is a

I feel the same. I feel totally the same. Even when you were saying the music, I was like, that's the storytelling, right? That's what I was thinking about. Yeah. Okay. Good to know. Right. Let's actually talk about collaborating designers versus content designers. We already started from this little thing that as designers, we usually think flows, right? We think how guests from specific requirements or whatever specific query in their mind, they want to achieve something. They want to make the goal happen, whatever, done.

So we think very often when we start designing, I think what's typically happening in the real world is that designers in the more UX mature places start collaborating a little bit more early, either when it's just discovery stuff or it's already like sort of shaped idea or shaped objective and you start kind of jumping into explorations, whatever is the starting point. But typically designers start thinking low fidelity, right? They think sketches, like different

choice of components, different way of breaking down information, different way of breaking down the complexity, kind of going through a mess of sketches and then arriving to some sort of two, three concepts, kind of going through the concepts with the team, then testing those concepts, et cetera, et cetera. What's your typical flow? You can start from your reality and then we'll get to the perfect world. Okay, good. We'll start with reality. Reality is most companies, I'm just going to say most, I think it's all

But right now we'll go with most, I would say don't have have enough content designers for us to be able to start at the beginning and then go to the end. So we're constantly at least everywhere I've worked, which is two places so far, but we basically jump in as soon as we can and

The ideal situation is that we start working on something from the start, but that's almost never happening because we're working on like, I mean, right now I'm working on six different products at the same time. There's just not enough time. I have to, you know, finish this thing. And then as soon as I can, I jump in on the next one.

Sometimes I get in at the very beginning, which is great because those ones that usually get in at the very beginning happen to be the ones that I'm the most happy with at the end because you get sort of that buy-in at the beginning. You can discuss

Okay, the whole story and you can kind of build the story along with the designer and also you get to talk to the developers early on and understand really what is possible so that you can build everything from the beginning to the end that helps you develop the story as you're building it and it kind of works out the best but obviously that's not reality.

So it's always jumping in halfway and you're trying to sort of get all the information from everybody's different side. Like you're talking with the PM, like, okay, what's the goal? What is the point? Like, what are we trying to achieve with this? Got it. Then you go to the developers and you try and understand, okay, what's been developed so far? How does it work? And yeah,

what are the next things that we're going to build on to this? How is that going to work from the inside? Like how is the data transferred from like, this place to that place, because that's also important when you need to explain things to guests in the interface. And also talking with obviously the designer, because they're the ones who are visualizing it. And that's where our work goes isn't the visual part, but it's based on everything else. So

So yeah, we're jumping in halfway. If not, I don't know, near the end or whatever. And yes, it's a little frustrating, but we work with what we have.

You were right now speaking, I guess, more about the actual reality. And obviously this all starts from what you have said. There is never enough content designers to be able to start from the beginning and to fully understand the picture, to be able to fully create a good, cohesive and efficient story. So when you were talking about asking PMs, asking developers, asking this and this and this and these different parties, I was immediately thinking, okay, this is also what we usually do, right? As designers. So how much of it you have to do a sort of

Sometimes if you're joining midway and designer probably already possibly started working on something, how much of it you have to kind of backtrack or kind of skip even or just rely on whatever designer gives you in order to achieve as much as we can good ending. It depends on whether you are paired with a good designer. And thankfully working at Muse, we have an actually like a very superstar team. So I'm really happy

And like, I think it works really well, but I've worked in teams where the designer just like, how do I put this? There's a lot of designers out there. They call themselves UX designers. And I would argue that a big portion of them are UI designers.

because they just slap things together based on like what components they have. I've worked with a few people like that who very much are kind of like yes men. So, you know, the PM will say, oh, I don't like this, use this. And they just kind of go, okay. And just like drag it in without really thinking beyond that. So if you're working with UI designers, like exclusively in that sort of mindset of just like,

you know pixel pushing then it's really hard and the ux writer will have to double time but i don't think there's a lot of companies who actually have ui designers and then a ux writer because i think a company that is sort of mature in its thinking not necessarily in how old it is but how it's structured if they have good designers

there will probably be a UX writer and that UX writer will probably work well with the UX designer. This is so good to hear because first you did a point around pixel pushing, sort of always yes-sayer. These are the good signs that I truly agree with you. Like there are a lot of designers who call themselves UX designers, but in reality, it's really more about the UI design where it's not really thinking about the full picture, about the user business and everything, like literally not pushing back on why are we doing this. But then

This is good to hear from the outside perspective, from like, obviously you're still a designer, but I mean, from not the pixel pushing kind of perspective, from the outside, when you're saying this is what I believe is not the UX design. And then it gives some people who are currently working as designers an idea of how they're being perceived. So this is good to hear.

So I guess my original question was about cross-working. I guess I'm trying to understand is whether you prefer going with the designer and talking to a PM at the same time or, and I guess it's preferred reality, but then in the reality, you might not be often be able to start from the early on. So how often do you actually have to go and talk to the PMs versus how often do you have to just

start somewhere in the middle with the designer. And I know that you have six projects, so you cannot be always in the beginning. So I guess that brings us to some idea, but still would love to hear it from you. I would say, okay, first thing is I would definitely prefer to go to the PM with a designer because we work in tandem.

So if the designer that I'm working with doesn't know something, then either I'll go or we can go together. But it's always preferable that we go together, particularly if the designer doesn't have a certain piece of information that I need, for example, to explain something in the UI properly. You

Usually, like in our case at Muse, I'd say, our designers are excellent. So they get a lot of the information. But even then, I find, and this is kind of like the key point of why UX writers even exist, is that

I find that UX designers, they're very focused on, I don't know what it is exactly, but I just find that no matter who I'm working with, there's always a perspective that I take that the designer that I'm working with hasn't thought of. It's not like that I have some sort of magical abilities or something. It's just that I can't even talk about it from like the designer's perspective, but I

I always come in and I go, well, what if we did it in like this way? What if we take it from this other perspective? And there's always an aha moment where we kind of,

Maybe that does work a little bit better. And I think that's just because we as UX writers are more focused on language, which is going back to storytelling. So the story kind of has this little bump in it in the interface, going back to like components like on off, and they're using a checkbox, for example, it's like, why don't we use a toggle because that feels more natural. And

it's little moments like that that kind of always pop up in working with a designer but again questions like that always have to go to the PM to understand you know what is the end goal that we actually want so that you can connect all the dots but I always find these weird little gaps in like perspective and how the story is flowing and

And I really enjoy that little aspect of UX writing. I like that you say that we have to kind of be in duo because if it's only one person responsible for the user experience, and UX design is huge, everything is UX, right? So there is a very easy way for you to miss something.

And having someone else trying to fill those gaps or at least working with each other to obviously have different perspective, like you said, different focus areas kind of helps to make sure you don't have those gaps or you reduce those risks and gaps as much as possible by working together. And I really love this. And I do remember like the other day

We were on a meeting with the QA and we were like looking through the copy of the product we were kind of shipping for the conference. And you were like, what is this string? How does this string work? And I'm like, how does this string work in a different languages? And the QA kind of makes the quick copy tweak and it looks ugly. And we were like, oh, you were so focused on the copy. And I was like, how will it look like? So we see from different perspectives, yet we think about the same user experience.

So I think it's a good example of just like reflecting on how we still think about the same thing, but we just think about it from different angles.

Yeah, I think that's important too because like you're saying that you're thinking of how it looks. How it's perceived, right? So you see everything, what stands out, where do you start from, like all the visual hierarchy stuff. Yeah, we also think about how it's going to look too. So like even words, they have a certain look to them. If something's on one line or if you go to German and all of a sudden it's like a two-line thing and it's a line to the left,

and you're like, "Huh, maybe we should center align that, and then maybe I can go and ask localization if they can shorten that a bit."

But that's another interesting thing. And this is kind of like why UX, it's hard. It's very hard for UX writers or content designers to be at the beginning of every project. It's kind of because when everyone starts, it's kind of like, preferably I think UX designers and UX writers will start, you know, at the beginning with the PM to sort of get sort of like the visual idea of how we want it to look.

then I would say it'd be good for the developers to come in and like, you know, they cut a few things down so we understand what's technologically possible from their perspective. But when the developers and the UX designers are done, UX writer is not done because we still have to work with localization to make sure that everything that we wrote also makes it into the product. I mean, that's with the developers, but is also translated

into the other languages that we use. And, you know, organizing that with, let's say you have 30 languages that the company is supporting in the product, there's a lot of translation that needs to get done. And localization, that's a whole different thing over there. But it also touches on, of course, the content. So once everything's done and shipped, everyone else is kind of like, woohoo! And UX writers, they're like, oh my God, this is like...

Only 70% of the work is done here, guys. Everyone else is off onto the next thing and we're still finishing up the tail end of everything. But it does also still take a while. You guys need to have the sort of went-in channel in the Slack with the QI, guys. Always have this like, wait, we still have so much to do and everybody's like, yay, it's done!

Yep, yep, I know. And because before you joined the team, and it was still perceived more like a startup, and it joined when it started like going woohoo, big. And when I joined the first six months, we still felt like a little startup. We were 20 people, mostly developers, one or two designers, and that's NPM and director and that's all. And the QA was like literally struggling, then nobody would notice them. They would sit alone in the room, even though we have a fantastic QA and he's the one who will make himself visible. Yet,

it's the majority who are the developers. So there's this critical mass that kind of, you need to really push hard to be noticeable. And so the QI was always like struggling.

You joined the team. I just remember it was like a facepalm for us when we first had this team offsite and we were sitting, it was like a trip to a different country, right? It was the whole team. And we were sitting there and I'm asking like, where is our content designer? Where are we doing it? Like, how is this possible? We're having the team offsite and the content designer is not there. So you really had to like build your own sort of presence within the team to get yourself noticeable and to say, we are doing the thing. Yeah.

- Yeah. - How was it for you? - I mean, like, it's a thing that I feel that content designers just have to get used to. And it's also, it's part of the job. If you do the UX writing or the content design, whatever,

if you do it well nothing should be noticed if you do it extremely well then the user should get joy from it there should be like moments of like aha that was pleasant if you do one little mistake everyone's gonna notice it because you wrote the content there's supposed to be a period there because obviously it's a sentence that you wrote and

And the developer who made the keys forgot to put the period in and it goes through and you're getting to the end of QA and you missed it. Boom. Everybody on the planet who opens the app is going to be like, wow, this is like terrible. And you're just sitting there like, oh my God, it was one period. Like I'll go fix that now. But it's like blown out of proportion if the content is off. It's like...

Yeah, I know. I know. Obviously, we're focusing much more on like the way it looks. And it's the same happens with like, oh, a little button is like bigger or whatever. It's always like, why is this button not on the left or whatever? Like, why is the logo bigger than it needed to be? I know the

pain very well. So you have touched on this topic and it's very important, I feel like. And I think we started talking about this part. So a lot of the times what you are doing, and it's not just structuring and organizing information, but you're also thinking about accessibility, localization, QA thing, all the small parts of it.

Tell us a bit more about the accessibility being a part of your work, because I know it's all about like making things simple, but how are you thinking about accessibility? Because all the time when obviously the screen readers are reading the text, right? So the text needs to be super communicative. It needs to be almost like a dialogue.

Obviously, as designers, we're still not very much there. There are a lot of problems there with accessibility, no matter what product you look into. How did it become a thing? How would you think it makes a way into the content design? It's a fun thing. And it always makes me chuckle when I see these little details in designs before they get to the content designer or UX writer. One of them is the use of ampersands, like

ampersands are problematic for screen readers you'll see people use ampersands a lot like uh pms will pitch for it designers will use them because they look nice

But literally in many screen readers, and like I actually tested a few, and it's just so funny how it literally says ampersand, do-do-do-do-do. And so you're just sitting there like, stop using ampersand. People are going to hate you for it. Another one that I think is great is the word successfully in success messages. Like it's just...

"You have successfully done blah blah blah." It's like, why can't you just tell me I just did the thing? Could I have unsuccessfully done that? Like, it just... But those are all little bits in accessibility. I think accessibility is definitely something that you take into account. I think UX writers, content designers, weirdly enough, are like one of the biggest pushers for accessibility. And I think a lot of the reason is because

It's one of those things that we have power over to a degree. We don't have power over very much. We kind of just influence everything from like a different angle, essentially. Along with keys, a bit of localization, accessibility is one of those things that we do have power over and we can touch on and we can influence using words. So we're always thinking about it, but there are not always cases where we can really be helpful.

And I think that that kind of is dependent again on someone else, but that's like development, the infrastructure thinking that our users going to look at the product on a computer screen or a phone screen, or maybe it's like a payment terminal.

People write content for that too, but how are they going to receive the information that's coming out of it? And when you need to use some sort of accessibility, I don't know what they're called, screen reader, for example, it's going to read it out. When it reads it out, sometimes there are sort of like secondary texts

that we kind of have like snuck into the code so that the screen reader will read that text instead of directly what's on the screen. So sometimes you could be writing the product twice essentially just because...

you have those little behind the scenes explanation texts so that the screen reader can explain to people what they're doing. Yeah, talking about everybody's just celebrating the completion of the project and you guys still sitting at night writing all those things.

Yeah. I get it. So what can we UX designers learn from content designers to start thinking about accessibility in design better? What is it that make it inevitable part of your process? For me, it's obvious because there wasn't really a push. It's just who's going to use this? Anybody can use this. Well, who's anybody? People who might need to use accessibility features. I mean, like everybody goes to a hotel if they can like physically move their body from one place to another place somehow.

If they get to that place, in our case, it's a hotel property management system. So as a guest, we need to account for every guest. And I just think it has to be fair. People should all be treated the same. People are people. People are guests of the hotel. They didn't get the penthouse. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to get into the hotel and stay there. So

whatever their situation is, we need to account for that and make it the most hospitable experience possible for them. So for me, it's just obvious. I know that for some members of some teams, it might not be obvious like developers. And I think that's just because they're very set on, we just need to make the thing work. But for us, it's more taking it a step further in that we need to make the thing work for everybody. And that extra step could

actually take up a lot of resources and fair enough. But if you want to have a good product, I think that you need to have a good UX team who's going to push the company that extra mile. The reason I'm asking this question is because, I mean, I understand the context, right? In design, you always start with like ambiguity. And so you spend a lot of energy and time more in like figuring out the ambiguity and kind of get into the clarity. So that takes away, let's say, I don't know, 80% of your mental space. And then I feel like

With writing, you really are thinking about all those contexts when there is more clarity visually in front of you. So I understand why it is happening, but I am still fascinated how UX writers or content designers are able with very huge time pressure was like everything is supposed to be shipped yesterday and we have wrapping and six projects at the same time of wrapping. And you're still guys are able to kind of think about this beyond rather than just a copy string. You're thinking about the whole context.

So for me, that's the part where I feel like as designers, we always say that, but still we have to think more holistically, not just like figuring out the complexity and making it simple, but also think about the whole journey and not forget about all those beginning and end where it's really about the context and then the business and the user. And then at the end,

the final, how it all kind of comes together. That's something that I feel like you guys as content writers, content designers doing way better than us. Again, we all understand the complexity in which we're working. Sometimes we have like 55 different people talking to us, different complexity, different parts of products. Everybody needs something. You kind of like just forget about it, whatever happens. But it's true that we have to still stand our ground and then kind of never forget about that part.

Okay, let's talk about the perfect world. We haven't talked about it. So let's imagine you're living in a fantasy world and everything is beautiful and everything is unicorns. In a perfect world, how would you prefer working? I think that the biggest resource that we don't get is time. So in the perfect world, we have time, lots of time to do proper research and a lot of user testing.

it's all data. I keep going back to like the whole structure and logic bit, but it's all data. Words are data. So I think we would have the idea, we would be there in the ideation phase, like, okay, the next thing we want to solve is X. UX writer would be at the table, chilling with everybody else talking about it. Then we would have time to go, you know, on our own, do all kinds of research on things that are out there that, you

are that thing that we're trying to build, but also similar things. So for example, if we were for say, like working on something that was kind of like a schedule where it's like a timeline that we have to go, you know, from beginning to end. And there's like,

things along the way, events could be removed or placed in there depending on different things that the user buys or whatever. In that case, I wouldn't just be looking at just the schedule as a schedule. I would also be looking into calendars. I would be looking at productivity tools like to-do lists, task managers, things like that, and

and anything similar that involves that sort of base idea. So I would have time to research anything that even moderately touches on that topic so that we could come up with the best solution. Then we would be able to talk about it,

decide what the best solution is, and then move forward with it. Also discussing kind of the language of how we're going to approach that, so that we can build the story of how the user uses it from beginning to end. So then we would start building it, you know, we'd run into a few bumps here and there, whatever. But before we release it, we would have plenty of time to test it on

on users and get their feedback and then properly you know take in that information could make different considerations make adjustments here and there and then the final product would be this thing that was well researched well tested and we would be able to get it out already localized 100 in every language with everybody's you know all the accessibility factors

all taken into consideration everything's all implemented nicely so that would be my ideal world but time i mean that honestly sounds exactly like a perfect world for a designer as well like you want to have time we always even though there is this pool of time right and designers get a little bit more of it and you guys always get like some sort of spillover sort of whatever like i know it sounds bad but

That's kind of sometimes a reality. But we all dream about more time. We always want more time for explorations, for testing.

Even now I'm back and I see that, oh, we still need to do more testing. The testing is not an essential part of our process. I'm trying to squeeze that testing in and I see like, oh, I have like two hours to do the testing. How do I do this in two hours? And so, yes, it's true. We always want more time to be able to fully get the picture. And also you mentioned some like, oh, we can sit together and figure out. I was like, okay, so you probably also want some workshops and all this stuff.

So all the things we want and not always have a time for it. Well, not always, pretty much never, but still trying to do our best. It sounds essentially from what everything you were saying is that we want to be a part of the whole same process as you guys designers do just from the beginning to an end, when you are polishing the handoff or whatever, we take

over the localization and kind of make things again, all smooth. Not where like designers start first and we join in the middle. And then as we finally finish you and everybody's already celebrating, you sit at night and kind of finish stuff up. So we move this timeline a little bit to the earlier stages.

have more people involved, meaning that the whole content design can start from the beginning as well, which is totally natural. Need to make sense. I mean, we need to happen, but not there yet. I think the industry is still back to the same story when you have joined. And like I was saying that, oh, nobody was thinking about the content design. Honestly, I feel like it's just the content design is a more fresh sort of discipline where it still makes its own way in any tech world, a

location, no matter where you are. Maybe some products are definitely more UX mature, so they already took it earlier. But I feel like for many, many products, and now we have content designers, we're lucky, honestly. A lot of companies, a lot of teams, a lot of designers not only do the content, but they do marketing, they do sales, they do everything. So we're still happy, but that's not a status quo we need to settle down for. So I totally feel you. And also what I was thinking as you were talking the whole time is that it feels to me that

content designers, given the situation, let's say joining the party a little bit later, because obviously the party started from was developers and then design joined. And then slowly more layers were added like design systems, accessibility, content.

et cetera. And this part, they are essential. They need to be in the beginning, but they're still making their way into becoming top mind. And as you were speaking, I felt like it's almost that if you're joining even now, a few years later when it's not the new thing anymore, even now you as somebody who's joining the UX writer, you immediately somehow need to become very mature. Cannot join as a junior. A lot of people have to start as juniors, but you don't have time to be junior because you start from handling multiple projects, a lot of switching context,

need to quickly make decisions, need to tackle the complexity and the whole system thinking, which is not easy for many people. As a junior designer, you're not expected to think systems. How did you do that when you started? I call it trial by fire. It's literally like even when I first started, it was kind of like my manager at the time told me that after 300 people and like 300 applications, they chose me because I was the one person who they had this like a web page and

and they had a big Apple logo and like a little app thing that said, "Download our app."

And I was the only one who replaced that logo with the company's logo. And I went through the internet to like find exactly their app, which is like the little photo that they use for the app icon. That's what it was. So I literally like went through the internet trying to find the app icon. I found it and I put it over top of the stupid Apple logo because I was like, what if they have an Android phone? Like whatever. I

I put that in there, but that's why they hired me essentially. That was like the deciding factor was I was the one that doesn't work for everybody and like got to change that there. But I think that that's the thing with UX writing is that you are literally going to be thrown into the pit and you have to figure everything out fast.

And you have to, as one of my friends said in a different scenario, but I feel like it's the same case, you're there holding like 100 corgis as they're all running in different directions. And you as the UX writer are trying to hold everybody together. Because design wants to go do this, developers want to go do that, and the PM is trying to satisfy these needs. And you're kind of the one sitting in the middle going, maybe we should all talk about

And so we kind of are, as UX writers and content designers, sort of like diplomats. We go consult with the designers and then we go consult with the developers and then the PMs and then we kind of bring everything together. So it's not always just about words. It's more so about communication and storytelling than anything because we're helping to align everybody at the same time because we know little random things like...

designer might design a certain screen but we know something from developer side that the designer doesn't know we go oh but we can't do this because xyz and they'll go oh i didn't know that so then they fix it or the pm might try to push something and we go oh but we don't have these components for example in the design system we're going to have to build that so that's going to take extra time and they go oh i didn't know that so this is kind of like

where UX writing, I think, is probably the most valuable is that we kind of work like, I don't know what to call it. It's like a little sub-PM, like a little diplomat or something. We're kind of working between everybody.

and we're sort of helping everybody fill in the gaps in the knowledge. It's beyond just words in the interface or like pitching accessibility, but as a member of the team, and this is why I think that only larger companies with more mature teams, mindsets, products have UX writers or content designers is because we're kind of like little sprinkle of final touch. And like we kind of talk with everybody and make sure that everything is glued together well.

But isn't it what we're saying today that we don't want that? We want you to be like effective and not just sprinkles. It is effective though, I think, because I don't think that we can work effectively if we don't know all the little details from everywhere else that we do know.

Yeah, no, I'm not saying that sprinkle is not important. I'm wondering, the scenario we're describing to me was like, everything is done. So we go back and ask everyone, was there something missing on like trying to piece things together? Whereas I feel like that sounds like you start more like towards the end. Whereas I feel like the whole conversation today was, we want you to be a part of the beginning, being able to ask a question and glue things together. It has to be a collaboration with designer because design also glues things together. I feel like we

Obviously we all think our own bubbles. We always also think like, oh yeah, we are like the ones who listen to PMs, sales, marketing, blah, blah, all those people, blah, blah, blah. And then we glue things together. But to me, it sounds like it's just needs to be a group job because, or like a team job, simply because you established today, you have this focal point more on the story and how this kind of flows naturally. And you know, all those small things that needs to work well. Whereas we also think, but we will maybe need to think a little bit more bigger picture, like where you're thinking a little bit more tactically.

and specific things, we need to think, oh, how that will work in the other instance. What's the modularity of this structure, whatever. Things that we need to kind of put together across the whole product system and how that works in different departments and everything. And then if we are thinking so big sometimes, and like we're trying to understand, does that work with all the other contexts, cannot always be able to think big and small at the same time.

And it really would help everyone, the whole team, the company, the business working in pair to be able to understand the full picture if it works well, as well as being able to understand specifics, the tactics of each part of that flow. And working together in the beginning would be such a great power duo.

I know we're not in a perfect world just yet. I guess the last question I would still want you to ask back to this complexity as you are joined typically, there's so many projects to handle, so many things to know, to quickly answer, quickly get to the result, to get to the right answer. If you are, let's say, have another background, like you had editor or whatever journalism background, as well as languages, maybe some other person starts

from writing, literature. There are so many different ways how you can transition to UX writing. And given this context that you could be very roughly thrown into the multiple projects, switching contexts, understanding the complexity, how would you advise people who are planning to try out this industry, to test themselves in this industry? How would you think

you could prepare yourself to that. What are the skills or things you could do to handle the whole thing more smoothly to be able to survive? Because I feel like, again, this is about immediately becoming more senior. You cannot start small with like a little icon, right? As junior designers usually do. Like you have to immediately embrace the complexity and switching brains, which I don't think every single industry has. But what are your thoughts? How can you prepare yourself for that? Is it just like, if

Like if you don't have talent, don't even try. Or you can do small things to help yourself. I've actually never thought about like what you could do to prepare for it. But just thinking like probably story mapping. That would be really helpful because it's all just stories. So if you can build a logical story from beginning to end, I don't know, taking screens from...

an app and maybe just seeing how they're connected with each other and understand understanding like a goal that you want to achieve by doing something how different apps or programs or whatever go from beginning to end and mapping it out and understanding the connection between

the titles, the descriptions, the help messages, the error messages, the tool tips, how they connect sort of the logic, how they tell the story of like, I want to buy a coffee cup. So from getting onto the site, really understanding the connection of I want to buy a coffee cup, how do I find the coffee cup? Then how do I buy the coffee cup? Then how do I get the coffee cup ships to my house and just really follow all

all the different paths, count the screens, see who does it in shorter time versus someone who does it longer time. Why did they do that? Maybe they're trying to like upsell somewhere along the way. Oh, I see you're buying a coffee cup. Maybe you also want a spoon. I

I think taking situations and just map them out from beginning to end and find no little details about it. Like maybe you enjoyed one experience over the other experience more. Why that is. Maybe they had a funny cheeky message at the end when you finally bought it and that just made your day for some reason.

like all those little details it's all part of the experience and that would be helpful but another thing is um hierarchy and architecture are an absolute like must when you're getting into ux writing because if you look at one screen there's a title then there's a heading then there's a subheading then there's the the body text and then maybe there's a cta thrown in there how

How does that structure work? What is underneath what? Why is that connected logically? And then how each of these are interconnected between each other. So it's all about connections, placements, and like how that also is not reflected, but how you as a user feel when you see that. I think that's another big part of it too. And I guess we as designers would say nobody's reading the body copy. So yeah, let's not even fuck

Nobody is reading the body copy. They read the title and the CT. Does that make sense? Got it. Bye. I think that's like a big difference actually between UX writing and for example, like marketing copy, there will be, as we call it, fluff in the body, but instead of filling it with fluff, why don't we fill it with something useful? So like, you know, that 90% of people are going to read the title and then click the button.

That's like 90% of the time. But in the body, there could be some information that's like, you know, instead of like trying to upsell or push something, like just add fluff into it, you could write something that, you know, if you do this, this over here will be affected. So things that like... Add context. Yeah, add context, things that...

actually teach to an extent the user what else might be happening if you're doing that. So adding value. Don't just add fluff just because it looks nice that there's body text. You need to have some space here with some unnoticeable... Yeah, you don't need to have space. And that's another thing. Sometimes great content is no content. Yeah.

Sometimes not having anything written somewhere is better than just writing a blurb just because we have body text there. Yep, makes total sense. That's another decision that UX writer has to make. Was there something you feel we didn't touch today that we should have in relation to what is copy or UX writer?

responsible for and the magic that they're doing or you are doing versus designers are doing versus what could be the good effective collaboration between us plus the whole team. I know it's a complex question, but I wonder if there is something that you feel like we need to talk about yet. I think you would probably agree with this too, but like you said, how companies are structured and everything, all kind of based around development because let's face it without developers, nothing's going to happen.

but I think that little things will happen yeah like smaller things will see the light yeah but as sort of the whole process in general matures kind of everything was focused around developers and then you added design to it now we're getting into like details like you have QA you have localization all these these are kind of like the top tier but we still only account

for the time it takes to develop something. And I think that we need to start accounting for at least the design. So understanding that like, oh yeah, development time is going to take two weeks. Great. Let's give it two weeks and we're done. Like, no, make it three weeks.

give the designers, you know, a couple days at the beginning, maybe one in the middle, and then another couple days at the end, so that we can have that time to do the proper research and everything. And I think it's just the structure of time, like we need to start and it's not so much like UX writers or designers, just as companies, we need to like, start understanding that

Things take time and if you want to make something really good, just give it a little bit more. I understand that everyone wants to come out with features and we got to make this for the end of the queue and blah blah blah blah blah.

but maybe not focusing on pushing so many features, have less features, but make them actually good. I think that's a lot better because I even use a lot of apps. My favorite apps and my favorite companies are the ones who, you know, maybe they don't come out with anything for six months.

But then they do and you're like, damn, that's exactly what I wanted and it works exactly how I want it to. That is so much more satisfying from the user perspective than like companies who pump stuff out every week. It's just like, yeah, okay, we got it. It kind of works crap, but we have it, but it's not satisfying. And I think that's sort of the key is shifting more to like, let's make good things. Let's stop just making things. Let's actually make good things. Now you're speaking on behalf of our whole design team.

That was always the push here at Miu, at least. I know there are companies, if you think about archetypes, like Amazon is the type of a company who pushes things every day or a thousand times a day sometimes. And there is value in it. I mean, there are a lot of people who love Amazon products because they're very personalized. They know what you're doing, right? They use data and everything. So there is always good stuff

in every single context. But you're totally right that sometimes less is more and like you pick your side. And I feel like for us as designers at Muse, we really want to have less is more kind of approach, but less and better is more. But yeah, you're right. It's an organizational switch and it's a mindset switch and it takes time to build that mindset. And I feel like if you even remember, like when you have joined, everything was working slightly different. Even in our company, in our design team, we were like understaffed basically. We were like

at the moment you joined, I was

probably one and a half designer. Yeah. With one designer leaving. Another one joined just shortly after. So now we had like a team of three suddenly, and then basically not much of UX maturity was just starting out. And then obviously there was like organizational change and that shifted things around. And that's suddenly like now I'm back. What is it like one year after or two years after this beginning of the growth, we can start seeing the results of it. So it does take time.

And there are a lot of people who are living in the way because they don't align with this organization, this structure. So it's just natural. It's like restructure and reorganization. But I love that you bring in this because honestly, every time I'm speaking to the more I like see what works, what doesn't work. I'm feeling like this is so related to how the company is organized, the processes, the minds and the culture.

It sounds like a vague word for a lot of people, what does that even mean? But the truth is that you cannot be effective if you're not in the right environment. You can be the best designer in the world, the best content writer in the world, if you're not even given the opportunity to do your work, you can't. You just can't. You can't, the only one from the bottom up, push the whole organization of thousand people to switch the context and change the way they work.

And so you're right, it's so, so important. And I feel like that's a part of the interviewing process you have to go through and try to figure out if it fits the most organized way for you to work. And what's your camp? Is it more Amazon? Is it more Apple? So what's your type of organization? Oh, good one. For example, it's a completely individual thing. I guess I obviously fall into a camp, but I'm just like, for example, Amazon,

works great. Yeah, I think there's so much text everywhere. It drives me insane. And I think their website looks like 1995. So like, it's not pleasant, but it works. So like, fair enough. Another good example, Airbnb versus booking. I think booking is also like terribly wordy. But I prefer it over Airbnb in most cases to use it because I like the results. But

But Airbnb is more pleasant to look at. And there are moments where I'm like, I wish Airbnb did XYZ. I would use it more, but they don't. So things like that. I'm definitely more Apple than Windows. I just think that Apple is a system. I find it funny because a lot of people are like, I don't want to fall into the system because once you're in the ecosystem, you'll never get out. And I'm like, I love the system.

I love it. Give me the system because I can, for the most part, trust that if I buy something in the system, it's going to work. It's just going to work. And I don't want to think about playing with little things myself as the consumer trying to make something work because I just want to do the thing that I want to do. And if I buy another piece of the puzzle, I want it to help me do the thing that I want to do, not get in my way. So that's why I'm a big fan of Apple.

Recently, you know, they've had a few issues, but I still, if someone's like, you know, I'm tempted by like other phones, for example, like the, I think the phones that are like phone size and then you can flip it open and you have a tablet. I think that's awesome. But I know that it's not going to fit into part of the system and it's going to be really wonky and I'm going to be spending a lot more time

just trying to make it fit as opposed to enjoying it and doing just what I want to do with it. So I'm all for the system. Yeah, I know what you mean. And it's interesting because you're right that you have to pick what's your way of thinking and how you prefer things being done. Search for the company that

outlines with your way of doing things, with way of prioritizing things, with way of organizing things, et cetera. Because you're right, like when I was like using, I remember it was like a aha moment for me when I was once working on one product, it was long time ago, maybe like 2018. And I was developing this kind of Apple style product. And I was talking to the customer user and they were like, oh, Amazon is perfect, it's perfect. And I'm like, what?

what do you mean? I don't understand. Can you explain? Like, what do you mean perfect? It's horrible. Like, it's like, you can't find anything. You cannot block your account. You cannot quit. And it's perfect. It knows me. It understands me. It gives me everything. I'm like, what are you talking about? So it was like this kind of paradigm shift for me when I realized there is this other world where people wear a lot of content, a lot of things,

a lot of detail actually preferable. And so yeah, you have to understand where do you stand, what type of kind of design approach you prefer. Like I said, today I realize why people want Amazon products or Booking. And my husband is one of those who was like, "Booking all the way rather than Airbnb, you guys are not good," and everything. When we were doing research for the Booking products at Muse, a lot of people would say, "Oh, Booking gives me all the information I need. I feel comfortable.

I need that information before I make a choice. A lot of products don't do that. And they come maybe to the direct website to kind of see what you have. Maybe you have better prices. But then they switch to booking and they still get converted there just because booking gives you everything you need to know before you make that choice, right? So there is this information part.

or personalization or data thing. And we're talking now about the specifics over the hospitality, but still it's the part, right? How do you make this overwhelming information simple and in the right place, but also not overwhelming for those people who prefer Apple? Yeah. What we

in the IT industry. And I think this is one of the things that just goes over so many people's heads. And I think it's also probably one of those things that UX writer really brings to the table. I guess like not any different than designer, but a lot of people are very absorbed in the bubble in the IT industry. And so many people are just like,

You know, when you talk with people who are in IT all the time, every day, you forget that the people who use your products, most of them are not in IT, like the 99%.

because there's a whole world of people out there. Not everyone works in IT and not everyone speaks that language. And that's kind of the bridge that UX writers build is from the IT bubble to the rest of the world. Because a lot of the times, like you'll see developers write content that is just like so heavily technical and you're like,

Who's going to understand that? Bob the Builder in southern Kentucky is not going to know what deploy means. I mean, maybe he knows what it means, but in that context, they don't know that. They don't understand because they don't live in GitHub. I think

I think the biggest thing about UX writing is building that bridge between our little high-tech bubble and normal humans. Yeah, no offense to Bob, but it's true. No, no, you're right. Bob pays the car bills, technically, so make sure that Bob is happy. Yeah, exactly.

We need to think about it for sure. Okay, good. I think we talked a lot about different things. So I would love to probably start wrapping things up again if there is last chance. Anything else before we wrap it up? No? I think I'm good with Bob there.

And so my big final point is that just so many people outside of IT are the ones who pay the bills for IT. As a UX writer, we need to use that kind of language when we're speaking to them. That's just like, that's- - True, yeah, good point.

Good point. All right, then. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective, your understanding on your tips on how people who might be interested in UX writer content design could be joining or start embracing that world. And then, yeah, obviously.

If anybody has a question still, please let us know in the show notes. You will find an anonymous forum to submit your questions as well as if you found this conversation useful, please let us know if we should bring more of those topics. What are the topics we need to talk more about? That always helps us to keep this podcast moving in the right direction. And with that being said, thank you everybody for listening. Have a good day and we'll see you in the next episodes. Bye-bye.