#64 The Future of UX Writing with Yuval Keshtcher
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Hello and welcome to the future of UX podcast where we dive deep into the evolving world of user experience design. I'm your host Patricia Reiners joining you from Zurich, Switzerland and today I'm thrilled to have Joval Kestcher with us. Joval is the founder and CEO of the UX Writing Hub and he is a true expert in, you would have guessed it, UX writing.

Joal has worked closely with clients, has also mentored many students enhancing their expertise in UX writing. And in this episode we will explore the future of UX writing, content creation and how artificial intelligence is revolutionizing the writing space.

We will also discuss the rise of no-code applications and processes, shedding light on how these innovations are transforming the services we provide as designers, enabling us to design and to automate solutions more efficiently for our clients. So grab your favorite drink, your favorite beverages, settle in, and let's get inspired by Yuval's insights in this exciting episode of the Future of UX. Enjoy!

So hello Yuval, I'm so happy that you're here. Welcome to the Future of UX podcast. Welcome. Patricia, thank you so much Patricia for inviting me. A huge honor, a huge pleasure to be here. We just had a short discussion before the recordings and it was lovely to get to know more about you and your work in person. So very happy to be here. Thank you.

Amazing. Yeah, likewise. I'm looking forward to diving a little bit deeper into those topics. Before we are diving deeper into the whole topic of UX writing and AI, please feel free to share a little bit of background about yourself, who you are and what are you doing? My background is, I have, the background that I have is that I have many different backgrounds. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I was doing some Q in an ITech like more than a decade ago.

I'm an autodidact, so I went into graphic design, learning by myself how to do it, starting a small graphic design business, then figuring out that maybe UX design is better for me because everything is being digitized. Then being a content creator in the UX field, creating just like you, creating a lot of content for the international UX community.

which helped me to build my own kind of content community, which is the UX writing community, the UX writing hub.

And yeah, while working in UX, I figured out that not enough people are focusing on the words of the interface. I tried to look for people that know how to do it, gather them for a small community, starting like a few people, kind of, you know, scratching the end of the internet just to find like the people that are actually doing it. And slowly but steady, the community grew. Today, there's like maybe more than 150,000 people from all over the world learning from UX.

each other about UX writing and content design and that started like six years ago so that's almost like a history if you ask me because since then I've been involved in the past year and a half in many operations that related to AI and how to use AI in your UX and UX writing process

and how to design AI experiences. So I've been researching the AI field for the past year and a half. Yeah, I like to see interesting technologies and interesting opportunities and learn about them. I'm a very curious person. And yeah, so right now I'm running the UX Reading Hub, running the Writers in Tech podcast, which is a podcast for writers in tech, and being involved with a lot of AI projects lately.

Awesome. Sounds super fascinating. And I feel especially the whole topic of like content creation and writing is changing so much, right? So you have the right mindset of like continuously wanting to learn using new tech. You definitely have a big plus, I think, at the moment.

So from your experience, what do you think, like how has AI really changed the whole UX writing industry? Also in your community, I assume there are a lot of discussions currently happening around that topic. Are you scared? Do you see there are some opportunities? How do you see that? So in general,

a lot of things changed in the last few years not only with the ai for example we had covid that led to like you for some like weird reason covered led for user growth in tech like in 2021 2022 that was the ears to be in tech everything grew exponentially

And led by that, 2023, many companies raised a lot of money and then figured out that their valuation is too high. So they need to do layoffs. So many companies laid off developers, developers.

marketing people and also UX people. So that created, and in the same time, AI became a very big deal. So we kind of got into a situation where we have a huge pool of talent, many people that are talented, that do UX and do UX writing. And in the same time, there are new horizons about our industry when it comes to AI and

So back to your questions, how AI changed our profession. So I would say that like many different factors change our professions, profession, but specifically AI, I believe mostly change it in the way that I'd say that it made many people think differently.

that they don't need writers anymore for a while, only then to figure out that they actually really need us at the end of the day, because AI right now, ChatGPT, Cloud, all of those LLMs are not doing great job when it comes to writing. It can shoot like sentences, but actual writing that resonates with the reader or the user, it's not something that is doing successfully.

You probably can relate as a UX person that like if you tell a tool like UI Zard, which is supposed to give you like screens that based on your prompts. So right now it's like very weird. And like when you prompt it, it's like, wow, this is amazing. But then like, oh, but how, how am I going to use it?

So it's the same with like the text that you get from chat GPT right now. It's like, oh, wow, that's amazing. And then like, oh, wow, but I don't think I can use it. So that's more or less about that. With that being said, it's a huge productivity tool. So-

So it can save your time. It can help you. So a lot of people that are not native English speakers could just proofread their content very, very fast. You can bounce back and forth ideas with it. It's very, very successful in data analysis. So when it comes to user research, it's doing a very good job. You can analyze huge chunks of data using AI. And that's helpful. That saves time. You can use it also to...

Yeah, to use it as placeholder text. So a lot of time in the last, like, let's say five years ago, or maybe even three years ago, you had a lot of content tickets to the UX writers. Like, hey, we need a headline here, or we need a paragraph here. But right now, you could just generate it with AI, maybe edit it later. So that could be helpful. Yeah.

you know designers used to design with lorem ipsum which is something that writers really hate oh yeah this is my time like i remember before i always lorem ipsum because it's so difficult if you're not a professional your ex writer if you're not good at writing to come up with text all the time it's exhausting right really exactly yeah you can just generate it really quickly i used to like

Just like copy and paste. I called it protocopy back then, like a dummy text, even not Logamib Zoom. Maybe, you know, I'm going to one of my competitors website just as a placeholder, put like a paragraph and then change it later on, just so people would know what exactly is supposed to be in that paragraph. And now you don't have to do it anymore. You could just generate it with GHPT.

and it will hold the text visually for you. It'd be like the content design basically would work. And that's something we didn't have before. So on one hand, it's changed everything. And on the other hand, it doesn't change anything. We still need to sit and write and make sure that the content will resonate with the user. So how do you think your role has changed? Also like working with clients.

Is AI a big topic there? So do they expect you to know how to use AI tools to work with ChatGPT alongside? Or how are those conversations going? So clients don't care at all about anything but finishing the tasks that they have in a very specific time frame that they have, like the budget basically. Other than that, they're like...

I don't know. You can scuba dive and do it while scuba diving. They don't care, which is good. I don't care. But there isn't like a direct expectation from the clients for you to be like, okay, please use AI tools right now. I can say myself that when I hire people for content marketing, I expect them to do it in less time.

Because they can use AI. Like I could create the article for them using ChatGPT and they would have only like edit it and add some examples. And then instead of like investing six hours in creating this post, I would expect them to do it in like two hours. So that's like how client expectation changed. But that's in marketing. It's not in UX. UX is a bit different. You still don't have like...

a UX tool that is based on AI and generate screens that actually you can work with afterwards, at least not the ones that I have been exploring.

Yeah, that's about it. Yeah. I mean, that makes total sense. I think it's so interesting also to see how also like the interest or the perception of people is really changing when it comes to AI. I mean, there has been this huge hype of all these AI tools, TechiePT or UiSart or Galileo AI or so.

And it's still going on. Just yesterday, I had a call with a client who sent me a link to a Galileo AI prototype or to something like he copied it from, like he put it into Figma and then sent me the link and was like, look what I've done. We don't need a UI designer anymore. So I think we are done, Patricia, you know, I just solved it for us now. And I thought, wow, this is kind of funny. I mean, he was very proud of his own accomplishments and what he has created. And then it

I need to explain them somehow that we won't be able to use that. I mean, of course, I didn't say it like that, right? But I feel, I don't know how this is for you. So I'm very curious to hear your thoughts about that as well. But I feel also my role has changed a little bit more to like,

From integrating the client to creating things with AI maybe together, elaborating on it together, testing it together, using it for tiny bits and pieces of the process, maybe a first prototype during a workshop or something like that, but not for like the final, final product that we are going to ship.

How is that for you? What is your experience with that? So my experience with that is that... So can you please repeat the question? I just lost my... Of course, yeah. I was talking a little bit, rambling around the Galileo AI project. So I'm curious to see how your role also changed currently, right? I mean...

Of course, for clients, it's not super important what kind of tool to use, but I feel like at least my clients are asking a lot about AI, how to use it, how we are integrating it in our workflows, and how can we improve the process a little bit. And I see my role changing a little bit more to more like a consultant role.

and making sure like how to use it and helping also the client to navigate through this AI change at the moment. How is that for you? So there are two different answers to these questions, like how I perceive the role as how I think it's going to change and how it's changed in my opinion, and how the client thinks it changed because clients are in very different mindsets

One client is like in one place where they never heard about AI and other clients heard about AI, but they don't really know nothing about it. So first of all, let me step back and tell you how my perspective changed. So in the past few years, I also played around a lot with the idea of no code development, like building experiences, building products without actually knowing how to write code. So like...

At the end of the day, we need to build solutions for our clients. So we need to create this and that interaction. So how are we going to do it? All right. So maybe we can, if we need like an educational experience, maybe we can take one of the LMS that exists out there, like a learning management system and connect with different type of automations with Zapier or Make, which are two tools that I use.

to like another database, which is, can be used by maybe Airtable or something like that. And, and my perspective is like, how can I create experience that

without being dependent on anyone but myself. So no developers, no writers, no designers. I'm creating the experience end to end. And I think that's kind of a unique perspective. Like I feel like in the next few years, we will see more people that are maybe no co-developers or no co-designers that the client will be like, hey, we need this process in our CRM. Can you help us out? And it will be like, yeah, let's like,

Take your client's data. Let's take your dashboard and let's decide what type of buttons are going to be there, what type of fields are going to be there. And that's the type of experience we're going to create. Let me give you an example. Can you see me? Hello. Hello. Hello. I can see you and hear you. Hello. Hi. I hope you can hear me. Okay. I'm back.

I think I was gone for a second. Okay, no problem. But again, the Wi-Fi here is a bit tricky. So I was worried that it might break at some point. But fingers crossed that it's staying like that. I will just cut this part out. So don't worry about it. No problem. So when did you lose me? So I will give you an example. Maybe you start there. So I just edited. So let me give you an example. No, I stopped exactly there.

in the example. So let me give you an example. So a few weeks ago, this guy came to me. This guy just did business. He bought a local butcher shop and he decided to digitize it completely. He decided to, he called it like meat as a service. And this guy said, listen, I want to create

the best customer experience that I could possibly do for the butcher shop clients. Right? So this guy, first of all, build an e-commerce store. That was like the basics, but he wanted to take it to the next level.

And because I've built the UX writing hub completely with no code tools, I developed an LMS for our students and I've built like a lot of different automations for the UX writing hub. So people heard about it here in Israel. Like I have some, some like reputation also as a person that is doing this kind of stuff. So he reached out to me and we had like different challenges over there. Like,

you have like a community of very specific people that are involved with the keto diet so like building an experience for them that they could pick a specific piece of meat and maybe maybe buy meat together as a group and that will cost them less money or they have a group of people that have like

They really like meat that was aged, like aging meat. I don't know how to say that. Yeah. So we've built like this dashboard that notifies them every 30 days or 60 days or 90 days about the status of their meat and where, and like,

the content that we used was like fun and nice like hey hold on like you're waiting a bit too much it's like 90 days your meeting is getting edge you might want to eat it already you know so connecting this database to a notification they receive on whatsapp and then connecting it even to chat gpt in the backlog it's like automatically calculate the cost for the meat suppliers

So we managed to build like a very interesting, completely like digitized operation that improved the experience, not only for the customers, but also for the people in the butcher shop that like the workers that need to upload data to the database. And that was quite fascinating because it took a lot of time and to create a very successful business

a digitized business and operation that is well designed. It's not the most beautiful design, I assume, but it's working. And that's what design is all about, right? Creating stuff that works at the end of the day. Nobody cares about the color of the button or the location of the button as long as the button works when people want it to work.

And yeah, that project involved a lot of things, a lot of moving parts. It included UX writing, which is like the content of every piece of like from the notification to the button copy to everything. It included design, which is like what screens come after another screen, what the user journey looks like, like a lot of design thinking basically.

It included development, but no co-development. And a one-man show, a person that could be in charge of this orchestra. And if you ask me, I feel like that's where our industry is heading, towards people that are the owner of a specific experience, not people that will be only in charge of a very, very specific portion of the product. So that's like,

That's just me playing around with clients because I like, I find it fascinating. If you ask clients right now about like, they just know that they have a lot of, I call it UX debt or UX content that it depends, but like,

They know that they need better design. They know that they need better content and they're not sure where to start. So it's our job as professionals to do something I call it like UX audit or UX content audit. Depends on what areas of the product you want to focus.

And give them a list of suggestions about what I believe they could do in order to improve it. And if they want to do a project with me, so they could also hire me. And then we will define very specifically if they want me to jump into the Figma file, we could redesign the whole thing. Or maybe we could rewrite the whole thing. Yeah. But usually we're joining later in the process. We should be involved earlier when they define the feature because...

When they have people like us, we could save them a lot of time and money to tell them, like, hey, maybe we could avoid five screens here and make this experience way clearer using this piece of text. So, yeah. Anyway, there are a lot of different projects out there.

But I think also for me, fascinating. I think it's super interesting, especially if you are an entrepreneur, like a design entrepreneur, if you're a freelancer, if you're building your own business, how this might change. Like, you know, it used to be like, you are your ex-freelancer and you design via frames and maybe do a little bit of research and synthesizing for projects. Now to...

I can do suddenly much more things also because of AI. I'm able to do a little bit of UX writing for them. I might include non-code solutions for them. So I'm more like the one person design agency. And I think this is fascinating for me, right? Also for designers, how you as a designer can suddenly grow and become your own mini agency, right? But you enjoy it.

Yes, exactly. And you see also a huge rise right now in the fractional workforce. I don't know if you heard about this term, but like a fractional UX, which is like people do it as like design as a service. Like you could subscribe to a person, pay them like $4,000 a month, and then they will be like your go-to designer during like every month. And you see like people like making a lot of money, design studios that making a lot of money out of being like

a fraction of workers in those organizations so that's also an interesting trend that we've been seeing lately i think this is so cool i heard about this one guy who i think he was the first one who did it and also they did course around that about that topic so i think like a lot of people are joining fascinating i couldn't believe that this is working but it obviously is working

And I think for clients, it's just like a win-win because also clients want someone they can like throw something at and then it gets done quickly. Basically, they don't need to argue like, is this in the budget? Do you still have money? But just like know that someone takes care of it. Amazing. And if you as designers can somehow manage it, cool. Yeah.

And by the way, if you ask me, the only reason we could work like that right now is also because of no code tools. So I could build a system where a client submits some kind of a design task to me. It automatically updated in one of my project management tools, maybe Monday, maybe Asana, maybe ClickUp, whatever. And you could build a lot of automations around that that

Your only concern should be like your own project dashboard that, like I know that a lot of the fractional workers, the reason that they could work like that with many clients and earn a lot of money, like you have fractional workers that earn millions of dollars. And the reason is that they are completely asynced. So they don't go to calls or maybe like maybe once a week they have a call and that's it with the client.

But they're building like a lot of automations around them or at least designing a lot of automations around them. Create this very, very efficient workflow that will help them to kind of duplicate themselves and be part-time workers in many, many different places in the same time. Fascinating to me. And I can totally relate because I try to reduce all my meetings. I don't have a lot of meetings during the week because I hate it.

the problem is like it's just a waste of time right everything can be explained through an email and if it's super important if it's a presentation something we need to do totally fine but if you can automate it awesome so i think yeah that sounds super super super interesting but you want to hear something cool like there are a few experiences that are very hard to create online

And when it comes to like working in a company, working in a team, let me give you an example. And then I will give you an example of like how one designer here in Israel solved it successfully, in my opinion. So when, when you work like in a company, you know, the experience when you like go to the office next to you or like the open space and ask for someone, Hey, can I get your take on that? And like, you don't get it online because like,

like hopping on a Zoom call is very active, not passive, right? If someone knocking on my office door, it's very passive. I'm like, hey, yeah, whatever you want. But if like I'm joining to a Zoom call, it's very active. I need to be like, oh, okay, I'm joining. And then it's like, it's not the exact same experience. So there is this designer in Israel that created this Discord channel to all of the people in his company.

And they do like office hours where they spend time in audio rooms and they just allow people to jump into their rooms in case they like need anything. So while they are in a working day, they have like different office spaces, like the design office space and their own office space. And while they are in working hours, they just log into those audio channels.

And then people could just hop in, say something, then go. And then it's like the solution of creating an office-like experience in a remote team. Nice. Yeah. So yeah, I found it interesting.

I think that's that definitely is super interesting. Cool. I'm just thinking that also would be something cool for my AI course. So I'm also doing a course and have like a private community there. But something like that would be so nice also for participants, for learners, for students.

where they can because they are also all remotely with all online courses right so if they if there would be like a tiny space where they could meet and connect and if they see someone is in there they're just like jumping in as well have a little chat about a topic super cool so i think the idea is amazing you just mentioned right it could be used for all kind of things fascinating exactly 100%

Also, I mean, we already touched a little bit on that and talked about basically like future skills and what do you think is important with like the automation and these kind of things. But what would you recommend designers at the moment to focus on to stay relevant in the near future?

So I will say like the most expected thing right now, which would be like learn how to do prompt design. But that's a bad tip in my opinion, because you could actually create a prompt that will write the prompt for you. So it's not about learning prompt design. It's not like how to do auto or prompt engineering, whatever. It doesn't really matter.

So many people like in the industry are echoing the idea of designing your prompts. But my tip would be like to experience a lot, to do a lot of experiments on different LLMs. So in one hand, you have JetGPT, but on the other hand, you have Gemini. And on the other hand, on the third hand, you have Cloud. So you have many, many different LLMs.

lms and don't be dependent on one lm right be dependent on more than one so that's one tip learn a lot of different lms tip number two understand as a designer that you don't have only user prompts which will be the prompts that you use to communicate with um chadgp for example but there are system prompts okay in every digital experience

that have AI in it, there is something that is happening in the background that includes some kind of a prompt to AI. Let me give you an example. Do you use Loom, for example? Yeah. Great. So have you noticed that when you create a Loom video, it automatically names it?

and then like give you the summary of it so for us the end users it's like an invisible experience it's like it's a magic right you create a video and it automatically generates the name of it and some of it but what's actually happening in the background like you probably know like do you know what's happening in the background

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it probably transcribes the text that I'm writing, and then there's a prompt summarizing by the title. Exactly. So there is probably based on a Whisper API, which is the one that does the voice-to-text.

And then there is some kind of a system prompt, just like you said, that tell it to summarize or maybe another prompt that tells it to name the video. So a person, I would say a designer, or I don't know who, had to create that system prompt and to identify why that specific system prompt would create such a good experience. And that's being a good designer. Identify like how AI can improve the user experience so they wouldn't even notice it.

And by the way, UX writing is the same. When you have very good UX writing, it means that people are just using your app seriously without thinking or concerning about the consequences of what's going to happen. So when you make people, or maybe they do stop and think what's going to happen, but that means that this is a good experience because they were about to delete their huge pile of database. So now you just stop them in the right moment.

So good UX writing would make people stop or go without them even being noticing that the writing was actually what created that experience. Same goes with AI. Good AI experience designed within an app that we use on a daily basis like Loom is the one that we don't barely feel. It happens like magic. And then there are some really nice moments.

Yeah, I think it's an amazing example with Loom because I recognized that and I was like, there was just a feeling of enlightenment when I saw it. I was like, oh, finally, because you know the problem that you record so many Loom videos and you don't know which one was the right one. You have just no idea. They all look the same. You have the same background. And suddenly with AI, you know, okay, this was this one. This was that one. Perfect. And that's a good user experience.

Exactly. And it all goes back to user needs and really understanding the user doing research, analyzing that and making sense of the needs and pain points and thinking a little bit ahead of what makes this experience unique. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, like I tell you what, Patricia, too many companies are, I'd say, exploit the idea of AI or AI.

I would say overuse it. So just because you can use AI doesn't mean you have to use AI. Because if you created bad experience that include AI in it, you have right now bad experience at scale. Let me try to think about an example, Miro or Figma. So Figma, do you know this like

sticky notes where like you have right now ai fig jam or ai mirror and it's like automatically organize it for you yeah so okay it's a nice to have it's interesting it's nice to have but i you can tell me about your experience but i will tell you about my experience that i never find until i never find it useful not yet at least to it please generate me agenda for me

And then it's like a huge blur of animated content. And then not a lot of things to do with it. And then you end up deleting everything and creating it from scratch. So while I was just writing a small prompt and clicking the button, now I created a huge pile of mess.

and I have to clean it up. So we have like a bad design at scale because the AI feature wasn't implemented with the user in mind. It implemented so Miro or FigJam could say, hey, we use AI in our product. Yeah. It's so interesting that you're mentioning that because I think like the big problem also with Miro AI is that

you can't really enter any background information, right? It's not with ChatGPT where you can just like prime it. So you can enter pages and pages and pages of information and then it gives you an amazing output. But with Miro, you can't just like write a tiny sentence and it's not possible, at least at the moment, to give them a little bit of background information about what's the client is, what the workshop that you're preparing is about, what's the goal, what are your tasks, you know, like all the things that you need to know

So it's just like very generic. And I think this will definitely change. I am pretty sure that Miro is currently working on some kind of like mini models that companies can trade. I would love that personally. And I'm pretty sure they're working on it right now. But it's like, it will be expensive also for companies to use it. Listen, I don't have any doubts. I don't have any doubt that if like companies that are for...

all designers by designers like Miro and Figgy Jim I don't have any doubt that they will improve the user experience I just use that as an example of how a necessarily when used in your product is not necessarily helping the end user and not necessarily helping them to get to those epiphany moments or or practical just like the examples we've talked about with loom

I'm sure people will take your course. Maybe after people will listen to me, they will think to themselves, okay, so AI is fun and game. But let's think about the user real quick. And this is relevant to all the different medium and experience can be created, even like Apple Vision Pro, or if you create a Tesla, I don't know. Always think about the end user and then how to incorporate the technologies to support that for the end user.

If that makes sense. I agree. No, you're totally right. I think it's fascinating to see that from a user perspective, also from a designer perspective, of course. And I mean, times are wild, right? Every company is like so excited about AI and want to try new things out. And so, you know, it's such a prestige thing to have

AI integration like these and they are working. They might not be perfect, but they are working. So it's like a first step there on their game. And I think that's super interesting to see and to watch, especially in the beginning, right? Like the early ages of the web. I was too young for that to follow it back then.

I mean, I was a child, so I wasn't super interested in that topic. But now I think there are definitely some comparisons between early web, a lot of chaos, Wild Wild West, and AI, a lot of things that are not 100% perfect that will probably, hopefully, improve also for the user. Yeah, just like we had digital transformation 20 years ago where everything just digitized.

So now we have AI transformation and everything's going to be touched by AI in a way. And we need to prepare for it. Exactly. And this is something that you also mentioned in our pre-discussion before I pressed on record. You also mentioned that basically every industry is going through that shift and all companies and although companies are not seeing that at the moment anymore.

There are all these AI transformations going on. And I think this is super interesting also to mention and to keep in mind, if you are working somewhere, if you are an entrepreneur, if you're like leading teams, this is going through all the departments, the AI movement, not only for us as designers, right?

Yeah, every part of the organization and everything is changing. So HR is not going to be the same HR and design is not going to be the same design. We have to understand that our world right now is a bit fluid in a way that we just have to work on our soft skills. We'll have to understand how this stuff works, like prompts and system prompts and different LLMs and what are the possibilities and opportunities and how they integrate with

our products right now and try to dive into the actual technology. And then it will help you to kind of define your own path in your career because content marketing is also not the same and business management is not the same and business development, nothing is the same, but people are people. So people are the same and your users will be the same people and your colleagues will be the same people.

And prioritize them, prioritize the people. That's what I think everyone should do and how to serve them better or work with them in a better way. Yeah, I think great tips. And just to finish up, do we have any resources that you can share or that you would recommend? Any last tips for our listeners? So when you told me about this question before our call,

I thought to myself that lately I've been diving more into science fiction movies and books.

So I've watched Blade Runner for the first time, both of them. And that was quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it was quite interesting because there is a lot of stuff about the philosophy of consciousness for robots and philosophy around that. And how humans should interact with this type of technology. So yeah.

That's what I've been seeing lately. There is this guy named Ben. I forgot his name, Ben. He created like a very big no-code school back in the days. And now we have a very big AI newsletter that is called Ben Bytes. So check it out. It's good like AI content. It's good. I recommend check out the newsletter of the UX Writing Hub if you're interested in UX writing. A lot of great content design and UX writing tips.

I've been writing it for the past six years, every week. Or you can check the Writers in Tech podcast. Yeah, and follow me also. I'm planning to create a lot of content related to AI, UX, no code, and everything in between in the next decade. So you can check it out if you will follow me.

Awesome. Lots of plans for the next decade. I love that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you're very active on LinkedIn, always sharing good content there. I think it's a great place to connect. I will add all the resources in the description box. Also your social network so people can check you out, follow you, see what you're sharing and get a little bit inspired by all the amazing content. Okay, Yuval, thank you so much for...

for being in the podcast for sharing all these things i really enjoyed our conversation and can't wait to see you in berlin next week because we will be yeah i can't believe it's happening next week oh my god i can't believe it's happening already next week it's like time is going so fast lately it's crazy but it is crazy awesome thank you so much thank you ciao

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