23. Building Better Products with a Better Mindset (feat. Ryan Hudson-Peralta, Principal Experience Designer at Rocket Homes)
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This is the Nielsen Norman Group UX Podcast. I'm Therese Fessenden. Accessibility is not a new concept, but a term that's become increasingly popular in the field is inclusive design. This renewed interest in designing experiences usable by all is a great thing for the UX industry. It allows design teams to serve even more people than ever before.

Still, it's often easier said than done, and it takes a lot of effort and persistence to make accessible design happen. That said, there are things that designers can do to cultivate a mindset of curiosity and positivity, which makes accessible design possible. To explore this concept, I decided to reach out to Ryan Hudson Peralta.

Ryan wears many hats, and as he often introduces himself... Yeah, I always say that, you know, my intro is I'm a father, husband, international speaker, and designer who just happens to be born without hands. Because I don't let my disability define who I am. It is definitely a part of who I am, but I don't let it define me.

Ryan was born with a birth defect called congenital limb deficiency, which gave him severely shortened arms without hands and legs that stopped growing above the knee. Despite these odds, Ryan's persistence and resilience have enabled him to build a successful career in visual design and design mentorship. Now he leads product design as a principal experience designer at Rocket Homes. In this conversation, we discuss how Ryan got into the UX field,

how he cultivates a positive mindset toward problem solving, how empathy is key to designing anything from design systems to military inventory systems, and finally, some recommendations for building inclusive workplaces and for starting a new career in UX design. With that, here's Ryan. I've been doing UX and design for 20-some years. I started designing websites in high school in 1996, you know, when

whoever, and invented the internet and websites were getting popular. I was making websites for local restaurants, tattoo shops. My uncle was doing websites and I kind of started helping him with companies' websites and that's how I got into it. 90s. So yeah, this is probably the GeoCities age when there was lots of kind of, it was like the Wild West of web design, but yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

So you got a chance to work with small clients, I take it, and larger clients as well came along at some point.

Yeah, it was. Actually, I got to work with some pretty large clients early on because they didn't, you know, it was the internet was in its infancy. So I had already a couple of years of experience building websites and making things easy to use. And so I had linked up with some really big companies actually pretty early on and a lot of small companies, you know, that help pay the bills. But yeah, it was pretty cool to be able to work with such, you know, larger companies at the time.

I've seen some of your portfolio. You've got these beautiful graphics. So is graphic design part of how you found your way into the UX field? Or did that kind of come after the web design?

Uh, no, I've always been an artist my entire life. I used to draw with my feet when I was little, little, and I realized it was going to be difficult jumping up on counters to sign things. So I started painting and drawing and writing with a pencil between my chin and my shoulder. And, um, and I would always draw, you know, draw paint. And then I got into graphic design, designing business cards, logos. And, um, yeah, and then that's how I found, you know, web design and just it all. I always tell people like,

I can teach you how to make a website, but if you're not a designer and you're not really an artist, I feel like you need to have some type of artistry, some passion for art and design to make it look really good. On the topic of what can and can't be taught, you have a couple of really inspiring talks that are out there and published, but

You have such a positive mindset. And I wonder how much of that can be taught or, you know, what would you say played a role in shaping that mindset that you've carried out throughout your career? Thank you so much, by the way. And absolutely, I believe that a positive mindset can be taught. It just needs to be practiced. You know, I...

At a young age, I realized that people were not going to be able to do things for me my whole life. I have to figure this out on my own. When I was eight years old, I came home from school and my grandparents, I was so lucky to have them live across the street from me at a young age. And I was crying because I can't remember. I try not to think of the negative things or remember the negative things, but I can't remember what someone said to me that I wasn't going to be able to do. And I told my grandpa that. And he said, Ryan, in life, people are going to doubt you every day.

We only need one person to believe in you, and that's yourself. And honestly, at eight years old, that's when I realized that I don't care what anybody else says that I can't do. I'm going to do whatever I want to do and figure out a way to do it. That's where it started. And I teach that in my talks, and I teach that when I mentor kids and adults, that you just have to practice this positive mindset every day. Something...

You know, something happens to us in a day and we're like, oh, today's gonna be a bad day, right? That's the first thing we say. Today is gonna be a bad day. Why is today gonna be a bad day? Because one thing that happened in one second in your morning, that's not gonna cause the bad day, right? It's your negative mindset of thinking, thinking this is gonna happen. This is gonna be a bad day. So the sooner you get that negativity out and you start realizing, hey, that was just a bad moment, you know, and you move forward on with, you know, your day.

You're right. It is kind of one of those things I totally can relate. Maybe it's like a small thing that's just like, well, it's one of those days. I've totally been in that position. But yeah, in a way, you're kind of deciding what that day is going to be. And you can kind of decide what...

what else do you want to do and what else, you know, how you are going to make that day better? Yeah. We're, you know, we're the author of our own lives and we're the, the artists, you know, behind our own palettes or, you know, canvases. I mean, and you know, when you're, if you're writing a book and you're having a bad day, right, you can, the next day you have a new one start over. So if you start realizing that those, those are not, they're not full pages, they're not full days. That's just one little page that you can rip out and move on to the next.

This is definitely a philosophy that you've cultivated as a child. Has that philosophy kind of evolved or changed over the years or has it stayed the same?

No, it's definitely, definitely evolved. Like every, I'm trying to learn and evolve every single day. I mean, that's, that's, I don't, if I don't, if I go to bed and I don't realize, like I had a lesson today or I learned something that I won't fall asleep until I, I realized that I, this is what I learned or this is what I figured out. And, um, you know, I have, I remember being younger and letting things get to me a little bit, you know, I always had that positive mindset, but let me know something would happen. And I would just like,

it would just stick with me. And I'd be thinking of like, somebody said something or whatever. And now I have a, I now have a thing where it's more like I give myself a couple of minutes to get rid of it, you know, 30 seconds to get rid of it. If I can't fix it,

then I forget about it. And that's definitely evolved. And now that's something that is really tough to teach people because all our entire lives we're used to the opposite. We hold on to too many things. But that's definitely something I work with people and help them learn that they can get rid of it. If you can't fix something in your life, you can't change it and you have to live with it. Every single day of my life, I could totally be upset that I was born without arms and unable to walk.

Right. But it's something I have to live with. I can't change it. I can't go to the doctor. I can't take a magic pill and grow arms and legs and be able to walk. So I live with it and do the best that I can, you know, with what I have.

I think that's really helpful advice to just thinking about, I mean, everyone's got their thing at the end of the day. Like everyone's got something. I mean, obviously people can be in very different situations, but what we do have control over is kind of what we do with it. So, you know, thinking about like, even in, I'm just thinking about like UX platforms,

related like UX workplaces I've been where I might be very frustrated. I'm like, oh, well, if only I had, you know, the co-workers or stakeholders or executives that would just, you know, do X, Y, Z things like, oh, I'm limited by this. And technically, yes, that's there. But on the flip side, there are things that you might be able to do within your control or within your current influence. So, yeah, I appreciate that perspective as well.

Yeah. And you mentioned control. I always, I have this saying, don't let something that you can't control, control you. Because like we were in a meeting last week and somebody was like, oh, they were mad at somebody about something they said. And I said, so you're going to let that ruin your day? I was like, you can't control what that person said. So why are you going to let what they said control the rest of your day? And they were like, yeah, you know what? You're right. Like, I just need to get rid of this. And that's what they did.

It's funny when you say control of your day. There was like this one meme that was floating around a while back that was like the most honest email ever. And it was like, sorry, I've lost control of my day. So sometimes it's relatable. But yeah, it is kind of thinking about what you're directing your attention to, what you're prioritizing and taking up, you know, what is taking up your mental space or what you're allowing to take up your mental space too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

So on the topic of like kind of philosophical perspectives, like this is certainly making me think of philosophy and, you know, what, what ultimately matters in life. But, you know, thinking about, you know,

design philosophies, right? Because obviously we can go through life, we can have certain perspectives of how we personally want to live, but of course our designs end up impacting people as well. So could you talk to like, when you're doing UX design, like what would be your design philosophy or how do you go about approaching different design problems?

Yeah, I would say I have like maybe three or four different like design principles in my philosophy. I would say UX must be simple and easy to use, including and most importantly, accessibility for everyone. And I know we're going to talk about that a little bit too. But it must focus on the primary task. So many times like you visit a website or you open an app and it's like,

The tab bar on the bottom is like so many different things. Like you don't even know. Sometimes when you give too many options, you know, people don't know where to go. So it must focus on the primary task for sure. And communicating effectively. And I would say I love content.

Content is so important, right? But sometimes too much content, it hurts. We have content writers here or I have content writers on outside projects that I work on and they'll send me headlines or button CTAs and they're really long and I'm like, oh, maybe just... You don't want to say click here to do this. You just want, what's this button going to do? What's this headline for? So communicating effectively...

And honestly, as an artist, like I said earlier, I would say my biggest thing is it must look great. I mean, there's so many times where you can follow this rule and this rule and this rule, and then at the end, you're like, wow, this doesn't actually look that good. And so to me, it's like, yes, spacing is important, and so many things are important. So all the things and philosophies and principles, you can use those all day long, but if it doesn't look great, then that's not good.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that really is the art to UX is, yes, we can follow these principles and we should in order to make it usable, in order to make it intuitive. And then

The hard part is crafting it in such a way that it still looks aesthetically pleasing and not just boring or not just cookie cutter because we followed everything to the T. So yeah, that absolutely is probably the most difficult part of doing visual design. I remember a lesson, I was like in sixth grade, and we had to write directions to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And that has stuck with me forever because...

You say, take the bread out, take the knife out. And so many people would follow what you wrote and they're like, wow, you're actually following it to a T.

But it's not the outcome you want, right? So you just have to like get, you know, when building a design system, we're building a design system right now. And yeah, I can make all these pieces of the puzzle. But if I don't make them, if I don't know for sure that they fit correctly, you know, and they look good when they are put together, then the directions are bad. So yeah.

Oh my gosh. Peanut butter and jelly sandwich is going to be terrible. Yeah. It might end up being like missing an ingredient. You know, when you got two ingredients, it can still happen. Yeah. Documentation, especially with design systems, um,

I can imagine that's really challenging, especially with large organizations if you got a lot of people using a design system. So yeah, how did you figure out the best way to tackle that particular challenge? Or if you were working with others on a design system, how'd you guys tackle the documentation part?

Well, what I like to do is I like to, when we're writing something, documentation, or when I'm building an app or whatever, I love giving it to somebody else that has no idea what it is, you know, and watching them use it. And then you figure out, okay, this is how this person's using it. This is how this person's using it. And then now you know what you have to write to make it better and make it more usable. Yeah.

That is good practice. And like, especially if there are coworkers, ideally coworkers who haven't helped build the design system, right? They're going to be the ones who need to reference it and need to be able to find what they need. Yeah. And that's honestly something, you know, I use every day of my life, not just design, but it's like,

seeing other people's perspective, like seeing life from somebody else. I think, unfortunately, as a society and as humans, we're really selfish and we think so much about ourselves and how we do things. So when somebody else's perspective comes up, it's like, nah, that's not, I don't believe that or whatever. So I try to, whether it's design or whether it's whatever,

I always try to see, you know, life from their perspective and see how it is because life I'm three foot six life from my perspectives, way different than most people. So I see things that way differently.

For sure. So thinking inclusively, it seems, I mean, especially lately, this is something I'm glad that's become a hot topic. I'm glad that it's something people are talking about now and really starting to embody these principles. Because I think before it was, yes, inclusive design is important, but a lot of people were largely paying lip service just because that was, we all knew it was important, but we didn't know how to do it. So

You know, I'm wondering, since it is often easier said than done, do you have any tips for folks trying to like craft inclusive and accessible designs? Yeah, you know, I recently spoke on a panel for a really large shoe company. I signed an MBA, but and it was about it was about design and inclusive design. And I, you know, I said, you know, having a panel with people with disabilities is great.

but how many people in your company have disabilities? And they're like, oh, we have someone that's deaf. And I was like, okay, that's great. Don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is they're not designing shoes necessarily for somebody that's deaf. They're designing shoes for someone that's missing a limb or has mobility issues. And I asked them, I said, how many people in your company do you have that have those issues? Do you have any designers that have those issues?

issues. And they said, no. And I said, that's where it starts. Ford and GM and Chrysler, they're not going to have people that never have driven a car before start designing their cars, right? You have to

you have to know what you need and people with disabilities know what they need. I've been adapting my own clothes my entire life. I'm adapting my home and everything. So it's really important that if you want to truly be inclusive, hire people with disabilities. Maybe they're not designing there, but maybe they're sitting next to the designer figuring things out. Absolutely. And thinking about

Who is designing just as much as who you're designing for? It's all part of that same process or thinking more co-creatively. Like, who are we involving in this decision? And, you know, who is ultimately has the expertise? It's probably people who live with it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So on that topic, then this kind of takes us to inclusive workplaces. You know, I do think overall, we're starting to be a lot more cognizant of,

workplaces that aren't just tolerant of different conditions, different backgrounds, but really trying to embrace it and welcome that diversity. And so I'm curious, what do you think UX teams can do to foster more inclusive or accessible ways of working? Well, I think hiring people with disabilities, obviously, is a huge thing. And I always tell people like,

Before I worked for Rocket, I worked for the US Army and I worked for a couple of other smaller companies. And Rocket has been the most accommodating company I've ever worked for. Anything I need, they make sure that I have it.

But in the past and other companies, I would ask for something and it was like, I'm pulling teeth. I really need this. And honestly, I go my whole entire day without any assistance. The only thing I use at work that's adaptive is a bidet toilet seat.

And, and people are really shocked to hear that. They're like, wait, you don't have an assistant. You're like, somebody doesn't help you with food. And, you know, so, um, so yeah, I mean, it's just like hire people with disabilities and, and be, I don't think legally their companies are allowed to ask somebody with a disability what they need, but they should just let them feel comfortable asking, you know, you know, there's been times in the past with other companies where I, like I said, I would ask for something and it was like, what do you need that? Like,

Yes, I need that. And here it's all open. And anybody, it's not just people with disabilities. If anybody needs something here, and that's how it should be. I speak at an event called Isms Day, and I talk about our culture once a month with new team members. And over the pandemic, there's been so many new team members reaching out to me, saying that they're disabled, they love it here, they're able to work from home. No other company has given them opportunities like this. And I love to hear that.

And, um, because when I was younger, when I was 19, 18, 19, you know, after having years of doing web design experience, I went to companies to look at looking for a job. And I might as well, I always tell people, I might as well showing up without a head because, you know, my portfolio is great over the phone. I'm the right candidate for the job. And then I get there and,

that's, you know, it's some excuse, something's not going to work out. So I love the, you know, and there is people with disabilities that they can work, but they have trouble getting to work. They have trouble getting around the office. They need more help than, and, you know, being able to work remote is extremely helpful for people with disabilities.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that remote work has made, not just remote working, but even remote usability testing and remote research. It's opened up a whole new world of research that we've realized, at least when I say we, I'm referring to the collective UX industry, like

Like there are so many people that haven't been in these conversations and it's so, it's like a breath of fresh air to finally get to talk to people where, you know, they're able to take calls, whether that's in their car or their house or wherever they might be. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Nice. You said you used to work for the army. So what did you use to do with the army? So, um, I was with the army for five years as a civilian employee and I designed a user interfaces, um,

we designed things for soldiers to be able to inventory weapons over in Iraq and Afghanistan. And before they were like extremely clunky experiences where they'd take their gloves off. And what I did was I designed an experience where they can use their gloves and get in there and do the inventory that they needed to do fast, easy. And then I also did things like we designed or I designed a

like a help desk service for help desk tickets coming in for it. But I loved it. It was, uh, I loved everyone there. It was, it was, I felt like I always said like when I was a kid, like I would have loved to been able to, you know, be in the military and obviously because of my disability, I couldn't. So I felt like I was doing something for the country. So I love that. Actually. Yeah. Even thinking of that too, like design as a service, like,

I often think that as designers, it's easy to get in your own head about creating something that's beautiful. And yes, at the end of the day, we do want something that's beautiful, but we're also designing for people. And so often when I talk about design, I know I say it as we're serving a user. So I don't know if you can speak to that too, what it means if you're

you're really thinking about who it is you're designing for. Because like you were saying, it's often a bit difficult. Like, you know, we often get into in our own heads. And while we try to empathize, we might not be as empathetic as we could be. So yeah, do you have advice on like,

being more empathetic, I guess. I know it's kind of a weird question, but like, do you have tips? Yeah, that kind of goes back to what I was saying about like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, you know, and, and really like with, when you're designing for, with accessibility in mind, you can literally, you know, put there's blindfold goggles, there's, there's, there's different things that will impact your vision. So you can see why people would, you know, these vision impairments need these things. And, you know, like,

It's crazy because I'll be somewhere and there'll be like an automatic door button and it'll be like in front of the door. And like, obviously the person that designed that or had that idea to put the button right in front of it. So I have to hit the button and then back up really quickly or the door hits me. And my chair is pretty fast. Other people's wheelchairs are not. So yeah, it's extremely, extremely important to put yourself in other people's shoes and start thinking like that user when you're designing for that user.

If you could give like a younger version of yourself advice, what advice would you give yourself or maybe younger designer?

I know. I mean, I like the idea of giving myself advice. I always recommend people are like, what's the biggest tip that you give somebody? And I would say, do it. Like, just do it. Like, go to a website that you think is bad, take it, screenshot it and rebuild it. Like, do that over and over again. I can't tell you how many times where we've seen people's portfolio or I've seen people's portfolio and they really didn't have much. Like, they have a use case of something they worked on in school. But like, why not?

do your own thing. Like, why not go to this website and say, this is, this is how it could be better. I mean, we, we, I would say I personally hired like the last two or three people that have showed me that they made like five, six websites and they showed me why they made it better and what they, you know, what, you know, what changes they made to make it better. So just do it, like dig in and start doing it, do it as much as possible. Just like thinking positive, just, you got to do it. You just got to continue doing it. And,

And that'll grow your talent and your mindset will grow. I would say keep doing what you're doing and believe in what you're doing because it does work out. I mean, I have two amazing, incredible kids. I'm married. I have a great job. And then I also get to do...

I get to travel around and mentor and speak to people all around the United States. I've traveled to Dubai speaking. So, you know, I remember being a kid saying, wow, I'm doing these things. I'm being positive. And is this really going to work? Is this going to work? And yes, it does work.

And when I tell people to be positive and they're like, oh, yeah, but that's hard. I'm like, listen, I was born without hands and unable to walk. And I've done everything in my life that I've always wanted to. And so can you.

Absolutely. I think that's a really great note to end on because I cannot top that. But I, yeah, if anyone wants to like follow you and your work, where could you point people to? I do funny and cool things on Instagram. Look mom, no hands. And also my website, lookmomnohands.com. Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ryan, for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

That was Ryan Hudson Peralta. You can learn more about him and his work at lookmomnohands.com. By the way, don't forget to check out our website where you'll find thousands of free UX articles and videos. You can also find information about our upcoming UX conferences where we host full-day, in-depth courses on a variety of topics like app design, usability testing, user interviews, and more.

Some exciting news. We're having our first in-person UX conference since 2020, and that's coming up on October 16 through 21 in Washington, D.C. But we also have virtual events in both full day and half day formats. To learn more about these, go to nngroup.com. That's N-N-G-R-O-U-P dot com. Finally, if you like this show and you want to support what we do here, please leave a rating and hit subscribe.

This episode was hosted and produced by me, Therese Fessenden. All editing and post-production is by Jonas Zellner. Music is by Tiny Music and Dresden the Flamingo. That's it for today. Until next time, remember, keep it simple.